'Monarch, Legacy of Monsters', Costume Designer, Christopher Hargadon

0:08Jawad MirWell, thank you for joining. Really appreciate it. I have seen the series, the entire series, Monarch Legacy, yeah.

0:18Christopher HargadonOh, you saw the whole thing?

0:19Jawad MirYeah. Of monsters.

0:21Christopher HargadonI haven't seen the whole thing yet either.

0:23Jawad MirAnd I was just talking to one of the directors, which I can't post until after this because we talked about certain things that are not gonna be, Mirzy from episode five and six.

0:37Christopher HargadonOh, yeah. Mirzy.

0:38Jawad MirYeah, which was a great conversation. And, you know, just to kinda give you a little bit of a overview how much I enjoyed this series and how much unexpected it is for me, because, you know, when you watch trailers, it just, obviously from a marketing standpoint, as I was saying to her, is that you're just, looking for entertainment in a sense of monsters and, you know, things falling apart and the city's coming down and all that stuff. But there was so much more to the series. And, especially considering different timelines, the two things, aside from many of the things that really held this series together, was art direction and costumes.

1:24Jawad MirYou know, and that's why I wanted to speak to you because dealing with completely different time periods and obviously nurturing that into the characters' arcs and everything. So that little overview just to context of how much I enjoyed it, and it was entertaining and at the same time very human. So thank you…

1:46Christopher HargadonYeah

1:46Jawad Mir... For being part of it.

1:48Christopher HargadonOh, no. Listen, I'm, I'm really, pleased that you actually noticed the costumes because, while I was doing it, I'm, I'm quite accustomed to doing pieces where the costumes are noticeable on some level, for a very specific... I mean, character dressing, you know, all that type of thing is, you know, in everything a costume designer does. But in this particular show, you know, my friends who were asking me about it, they were saying, "So what's it like?" And I was saying, "Well, I don't really think you'll notice the costumes because they're just integrated into the story." you know, there's period, but it's not... I mean, there was one party scene, but I mean, it's not glamorous. You know, it's everyday kind of '50s or, you know, I think there was something from the '70s, but,... And also with the contemporary, or 2014…'15 that we did, sort of the same thing, really just, closets that we built to reinforce the background…

2:51Jawad MirYeah

2:51Christopher Hargadon... Or the inner life of the person. But having said that, I mean, this was one of the hardest shows I think I've ever worked on. I'm not, I'm not... I couldn't figure it out as it was happening, possibly because there were tidal waves of, you know, we do the current day, and then there'd be like, you know, next week we'd be shooting all '50s, and it would be a whole new, you know, gang of costumes. And I tend to like to build a lot and, even the contemporary clothes, Anna Sawai is a beautiful young woman, but she's tiny. So, you know, it, we're often very victim to what's happening in retail if we're buying at that level, and everything's very boxy right now for women after COVID. You know, the clothes are cool. I really like the look of them, but it's almost like beautiful, soft, colorful fabrics in the shape of sweat clothes or things that aren't quite 100%, but they're, they're comfortable.

3:52Christopher HargadonSo if you put an actress like Anna in something like that and put her on camera, she looks like she's just swimming in fabric. So a lot of her clothes were actually built and, for all of them actually. Kurt, certainly we built a lot of his stuff. And, yeah, Len, people pronounce it Ren, our Japanese young actor, we built…

4:16Jawad MirOh, right

4:16Christopher Hargadon... His things. And also Kiersey, you know, just because she was supposed to be, rogue, you know, she's on the run and it was... Initially, when she was in Japan, I just actually watched the third episode last night, and I was a little bit perturbed because, we built this whole coat that had a hood and, you know, the sketches that I did had her running through Japan, like, completely cloaked. And, so I thought the scene where, he's taking pictures, Ren's taking pictures, Kentaro, outside the, art gallery

4:53Christopher Hargadon... Was gonna... Her face coming out of the hood, and she had the hood fold down, her coat open. I mean, she was completely exposed. So it kind of, to me, we lo… we lost that sleuth element that we were trying to go for, and I don't think I ever saw her with that coat on with the hood up finally, and it was, it was a very cool hood. You know, it was built out of a very large piece of fabric, and it sort of did interesting things the way it was shaped. So I mean, sometimes when I'm watching things, if I'm not on set, I think, "Geez, like I wish I could've been on set just to..." You know, it's not like that wasn't explained or anything, and sometimes that things happen in the moment where…

5:31Jawad MirOf course

5:31Christopher Hargadon... Decisions made and, but I didn't know anything about it until I watched the show and I thought, "Damn, I feel like we missed a plot point there." But anyway, you know, you can't, you can't, you can't take things too personally or seriously because, you know, once it leaves our space…

5:49Jawad MirYeah

5:49Christopher Hargadon... You know, it has a life of its own, and it goes on to do whatever it's supposed to do, so. But anyway…

5:54Jawad MirYeah

5:54Christopher Hargadon... Thank you for noticing the costumes 'cause I doubt many people really would, you know?

5:59Jawad MirWell… It's funny you mentioned that they weren't glamorous, and that's one of the things that I found very intriguing was because I don't think the word glamour came to my mind. I think it was more about subtlety. They just blended in the time period that they were in, which to me says that they worked, right? And, they were, they were reflective of the characters. Th… they were just personal. Even like, you know, like the uniform, what's his name? Wyatt? Wyatt Russell?

6:32Jawad MirYeah, like he would put on or... Like, I have a... My background is military, family, not from, you know, this part of the world, but from Asia, South Asia. But, you know, seeing the details, the ranks and, you know when, you know, the badges and everything, that you see that in a lot of shows and I know there's con… or movies, I know there's consultants and everything, but at the same time, it was just simple, yet effective, and it spoke dozens if not thousands of times about the characters. So, you know, that to me stood out. And we… we can talk about the series a little bit afterwards, but I w… I'm always interested in everyone's journey, in this industry. You know, how you got started, what inspired you, to be where you are right now?

7:23Christopher HargadonYeah. Well, I'll try and make it quick. It's

7:26Jawad MirWe have time.

7:29Christopher HargadonI was, and you can edit, so, 'cause I like to talk. So

7:32Jawad MirI... That's fine. I'm not cutting anything, so just keep going, don't worry.

7:36Christopher HargadonI, well, I went to university, and trained to be a translator actually, so, because I was a linguist and, when I got to the point where, you know, it could actually become a job when I graduated, I realized that, translation is actually a very uncreative job. Apparently, for people it's the m… the happiest job you can have because you can travel with it nowadays. You can do it anywhere in the world. And you know, I wish actually I had developed the skill i… on a professional level by working so that I could be doing it any, you know, maybe when I'm older or something like that. But anyway, I never did and, I just had a very fortuitous meeting. I was, living in Europe and, I got hired to work at a Club Med in Haiti, which, you know, af… after my money ran out, I went to Club Med with a friend and we applied and they hired us both to be tour guides in Haiti, and they were just setting up the club.

8:40Christopher HargadonSo, I'd been a tour guide in Paris previously, and I had a bunch of guide experience, so I tried not to get that job, but anyway, that's what they decided to give me. So we went to Haiti, and, started this, I guess, travel office within the club. And, with another, there were three of us in the department. We set up all the tours and, you know, so I got to know all the gallery owners and everything, and it was the first season, so it was mostly, people for publicity, journalists and that kind of thing who came on a free pass just to spend some time there. But there was one woman who came with her husband and, I'd see her around, and they stayed for quite a long time, but the first week or so, I just see this very tall blonde woman, you know, luxuriating, you know, on the beach, saying, you know, s… tanning or having a, you know, some kind of a drink sort of in the lounge. And so finally we ended up, it's a communal eating, so we ended up, at a table eating with this couple, and she was a former model, for, you know, Dior, Saint Laurent…

9:49Christopher Hargadon... Like all the greats. And, she started at a young age, and then she basically, started to design herself. And, so at this point, she had a very large company in France, and it was international. She sold all over the world. She had boutiques all over the world. And, she actually, after conversation, she actually offered me an apprenticeship, which, you know, I mean, when I was in high school, 'cause I'm tall, I used to make my own clothes 'cause you couldn't find interesting clothes and the sleeves were all too short and everything. But I'd never really thought…

10:23Jawad MirRight

10:23Christopher Hargadon... Of doing it as a, as a job or a career and, anyway, I took her up on it, so I ended up back in France and, you know, they never had an apprentice before me and they never had one after. So I don't know, you know, why, but, anyway, it was my good fortune and I stayed there for a few years and, I mean, at the time I kind of wished that I'd started off with some knowledge because I didn't know what any of the technical terms were in English, let alone French. But, anyway, I had a pretty good foundation by the time I left, and, you know, just pattern making and draping and just watching the process, you know, from the initial concept to the actual production. And, so when I came back to Canada, I actually moved to Montreal, designed clothes for a company, and then I moved to Toronto and, 'cause th… this is where my family is in Canada. And, I ended up, opening my own company. So then I designed and I distributed and I, it got quite big.

11:26Christopher HargadonI was shipping all over Canada into the US and then I just kind of, you know, it was just me, you know. I was doing pretty complicated things and, the recession had hit and people weren't paying, and so I just thought, you know, I wouldn't mind not doing this anymore. And I actually realized I didn't actually really care about fashion. I didn't care about trends or

11:50Christopher Hargadon... You know what I mean? I understood it and I think I was proficient at it, but it wasn't like a real passion for me. And I had a friend, a lot of, former designers had gone into the film business, and so one of my best friends said, "Why don't you come and…... Work in the film business. The people are nice. They give you a free lunch. And so the next thing I knew, I was working, really in all the different, levels. You know, I wasn't designing, but I was, you know, working the set. I was dealing with actors. I was running around town looking for things, and then after I did it for a while, I thought, well, you know, this is really temporary. So I did start another business, and, it actually did really well. It was more interior things. It was more design stuff and, but you know, more interior related. And then I just, realized I didn't wanna get back into manufacturing, so at that point, I sort of said in my head I wanted to design because that's sort of what I was trained to do. And

12:49Jawad MirYeah

12:49Christopher Hargadon... When that thought entered my mind, it didn't happen overnight, but pretty quickly, I started to be asked to do shows. So, yeah, so it's been a long time now that I've been designing, but I'm very happy where I landed. I feel, you know, I like actors. I like, I like telling stories through this medium. I love working…

13:13Christopher Hargadon... With directors and the production designers and, you know, having a crew, especially if it's a creative show, which I think we all, you know, yearn to work on where you're really creating a world or, something new and interesting. Just to work with talented, creative people in a group. Just to watch, the element of joy that y… you know, emerges when you all come together and make something really beautiful. When I was working on the show Umbrella Academy a few years back, I had one character called The Handler who was just outrageous. I mean, and it was thanks to Kate Walsh who played the part. You know, we really hit it off and she just wanted to go full out with this character. She was like a time traveling assassin fashionista, so you know, we referenced all k… different, you know, historical periods and, you know, a lot of color.

14:13Christopher HargadonVery different silhouettes. She actually played two age groups, so that was interesting as well. And, when the season was almost done, I rented about a dozen mannequins and I just set them all up in the wardrobe department in a corner, with all her outfits. And, I did it really because they always come, they do, you know, you know, they video things and they interview and all that kind of thing. I thought, well, I might as well, you know, make it interesting, so I had this display. But it was just so nice to see, you know, the cutters walk through and they just quietly, you know, take a break from their work and just start to walk around and look at the clothes from all different angles 'cause these people often don't get to go to set, which all, you know, if I can get these guys, the sewers and all the builders to set, I always try, but sometimes the sets aren't in the same location and, you know, we're slammed because we have tons of stuff to produce. So, it just gave them a opportunity and it just made me so happy to see them, you know, actually enjoy the fruits of their work and see, you know...

15:18Christopher HargadonThey'd watch the show, but often you don't see in, the final result, in the final edit, all the details and, you know, they don't, they shoot from the, you know, chest up or, you know, from the back and you really don't see the full impact of the costume. So that's how I…

15:35Jawad MirYeah

15:35Christopher Hargadon... Ended up here.

15:37Jawad MirThat's pretty cool. Are you from Toronto now too? Are you in Toronto?

15:40Christopher HargadonYeah. Well, I'm based out of two places. I've, I've worked a lot in Toronto over my career. I tend to work, I mean, I'm more, I'm more sort of project driven. Now that our daughter has, moved to the UK, I don't feel like we have to stay put here, so I've worked a lot of other places now.

16:02Christopher Hargadon... I also have a place in Hawaii, so you know, I spend time there. But I just got back from…

16:08Jawad MirNice

16:08Christopher Hargadon... Got back here for this lovely pre-winter season.

16:13Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's pretty gloomy outside right now.

16:17Christopher HargadonYeah. But it's, you know, it's always nice at this time of year, the holiday and the lights and…

16:23Jawad MirYes

16:23Christopher Hargadon... And, you know, it's a nice... I love this time of year. You don't get the same thing in Hawaii. It's Santa on the snowboard with a, you know, aloha shirt and, doesn't do it for me the same way.

16:34Jawad MirYeah. I've, I've... The first time I experienced that, I was in Australia, literally, it was November 26th to December 7th. We were filming a documentary there, and I remember in the middle of, was it Adelaide or Sydney? I don… I think it was Adelaide. It was the square and they had this giant Christmas tree, like, probably 100 foot high, 100 feet high, and there was no snow, no sign of winter and nothing. And it was just such a bizarre feeling that you have Christmas without cold weather, and it was, like, sunny and hot outside. And so I completely understand, h… how that sort of pans out.

17:15Christopher HargadonThey have, a Christmas tree, well, I don't know if they do it... They did it every year. This is a long time ago. I, a friend brought me there in Florida to the National Enquirer, office.

17:30Jawad MirOkay.

17:31Christopher HargadonIt's this, like, low rise building, and then they bring in a tree from some, you know, Oregon or something like that. And it's so odd because they cut all the branches down, so it's like this 40 or 50 foot high tree, but it's, it's all the same width all the way up. And then it's, you know, covered in these giant Christmas decorations. But, yeah, same thing. N… not a hint of snow to be found.

18:03Jawad MirRight. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's in… incredible. And, you know, going back to your story, One thing that, you know, it, sometimes, depending on w… how you move your career, it... Work comes to you and, you know, maybe multiple projects come to you, and you have the option of saying y… yes or no, and that depends on the time of... It could be one year, like, and you have like five offers or four offers simultaneously. Next year it could be just one, so you just kinda take it as long as, you know, it takes care of, you like the project, but also takes care of the bills and everything. It… how do you particularly, especially in this case, get to choose that, like, g… how did it come to you, Monarch: Legacy of Monsters? Like, how... Was it just through a referral or was it your work?

19:04Jawad MirWhat was that story like?

19:05Christopher HargadonThat was actually unusual because I was already working on something in Vancouver and, a friend of mine who's a brilliant hair person, she w… she was based out of Vancouver but I've worked with her in Toronto as well, and she told me about this show that was coming and, because, I mean, a lot of people are very ear to the track about work, you know? They sort of are current within their union…

19:30Jawad MirYeah

19:30Christopher Hargadon... Local, like what's coming up. I have to say, I'm really not very good at that. But ... Anyway, she mentioned this show and there was just something about it. I don't know why. Sometimes I'll hear about something and I'll just get kind of a feeling. So I actually, found out who the production manager was, and I just reached out and sent my resume. Now, I wanna tell you that practically never reaps any benefit. Like, I most of the times…

19:59Jawad MirYeah

19:59Christopher Hargadon... Personally reached out to productions or to people who don't know me, you know, usually it goes nowhere. I mean, you don't even necessarily hear back from them. And particularly in Vancouver because, I mean, I belonged to that local as well for a long time, but, they don't really know me as well out there because, you know, I've, I've now done about six projects out there, so m… more people know me. But I'm not sort of,.. You know, often when people contact me from there in the past, it would be when everybody else is working and then they see that I'm actually, you know, a member and un… under costume design, so. But anyway, I reached out and then that, my resume was forwarded to, you know, the line producer, then forward, the, who then probably called around his, you know, buddies and found out whether I was like, you know, employable or not. And then…

20:50Jawad MirYeah

20:50Christopher Hargadon... And then I ended up interviewing with the writers. There was about five of them, five or six. Anyway, I think I had two interviews, because someone was missing in the first interview and, yeah, then I ended up being hired, so that was, that was fortuitous because, you know, it's not a genre like I, you know, Godzilla, honestly,.. You know, a good friend of mine did the 2014 film and, when she did it, you know, she sort of said to me, "Are you jealous?" And she was being kind of sarcat… like, she was kidding. And, so I was probably a little bit the same way. I mean, I'd seen the Godzilla from the '50s that was done at Toho Studios in Tokyo with a big puppet and, that's really all I had followed of Godzilla. But, you know, of course then I watched everything, and this particular story, as you were mentioning earlier, sort of rang true to me because it was a human interest story.

21:51Christopher HargadonIt was a journey of discovery of these young people, and it's also a journey for the, you know, the threesome in the '50s. You know, how the, how Monarch starts and where it evolves and all that type of thing. I just really liked the writing and, I like the characters and I was excited about it. So

22:15Jawad MirYeah

22:15Christopher Hargadon... So yeah, I got into it. Like, and that's, that's the fun thing about this business is, you know, the research element and just, you know, being given the opportunity to venture into realms that you actually are kind of unfamiliar with. I had the same thing with Umbrella Academy. It's a graphic novel that are brilliant. I mean, they're beautifully illustrated and, you know, the, they were so unusual for the time they were first published because they were anti-superhero before all the superhero stuff became in vogue. I mean, those graphic novels go back about 25 plus years now. So…

22:53Christopher HargadonSo I didn't know anything about them, but once I started, you know, investigating, I was really into them, and then I got to meet the guys, you know, Gerard Way and, the writer and, the illustrator and, you know, it was, it was, for me it was a gift, you know? Just a, an expansion.

23:16Jawad MirIt's funny you mention how you casually sent your resume. I mean, you're so right that if not rarely, probably never happens, you know, because it's, it's normally through other ways, like, whether it's union or your agent or just through, like, a director who may have heard your work and he got referred, et cetera, et cetera. But that is, that is so cool, and it probably... I hope it happens more often, but it probably will never happen again because it's such a rare thing.

23:45Christopher HargadonYeah. I mean, most of the time, I would say if I get called it's because if it's a big project, it's usually that somebody's mentioned my name. And…

23:56Jawad MirYeah

23:56Christopher Hargadon... And sometimes I don't usually, you know, I don't usually bother asking, or I have been in the past, but, I've, I've sort of taken, when it happens now, I sort of say, "Could I ask who, how you know about me?" And

24:12Jawad MirYeah

24:12Christopher Hargadon... And they say, "Well, you know, I spoke with so and so," and they, you know, so it's... And sometimes p… the people they reference aren't people that I actually… No. Like, it could be, some…

24:23Jawad MirJust like through s… six degrees of separation.

24:26Christopher HargadonYeah. Well, the thing is, I mean, you know, on something like Monarch, there's just a ton of producers. And I didn't meet them all, but

24:35Jawad MirYeah

24:36Christopher Hargadon... Sometimes they might remember certain people who worked on the production. So, I'm always grateful if anybody remembers me. I mean, it's,.. I mean, I certainly do if, you know, if people are, you know,.. If there's gaps in crewing and I know amazing people, I'll, I'll step forward and if I'm on the show, and I'll, I'll recommend because, you know, you wanna work with great people.

25:01Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. One of the things that now that you mention it, the whole idea of the who started the Monarchs, right? Normally if it was a feature film or another series, let's just say, but more so feature film, they would probably hold that story off for another chapter. Like, you know how it got started, like the way they do it now in a lot of series and a lot of movies, which is, which was refreshing to see. Like, you see... And I think that's what clicks the most is the chemistry between the three protagonists that sets, that's set in the '50s, and how their relationships are with each other.

25:46Jawad MirAnd to me, like, I, listen, I enjoyed the recent present quite a bit. And I think for me, the one that's, the part that stood out was when Kurt Russell kinda came on, in the series. And not to say that others did not, but that just sort of took it to another level. But the '50s, I was somehow connected with it from the get-go. Like, the moment they started, it was, I was right there with them.

26:15Jawad MirI don't know, I don't know why that is. I'm not a '50s person by any means, but it, there was just something that resonated. And I always try to understand, you know, no matter what I'm watching or r… listening to, something clicks with people, you know, with all of us at a certain point, and you, sometimes you can figure it out, but most of the times you can't figure out what that is.

26:37Christopher HargadonRight. Yeah.

26:37Jawad MirBut it just did.

26:40Christopher HargadonYeah. No. Well, I mean, I think there's a simplicity to this. I mean, you know, the organization becomes very complex and sort of hierarchical

26:49Jawad MirYeah

26:49Christopher Hargadon... Down the road, but I mean, it's, you know, ver… ve… a very kind of, I don't know if you call it serendipitous, but I mean, you know, initially, you know, Ke… Ke… Is it Keiko and, Wyatt's character

27:07Jawad MirYeah

27:07Christopher Hargadon... They don't get along. I mean, they don't even, they don't even like each other. And then of course he's, you know, riddled with, like, '50s stereotypes, like a Japanese woman working as a scientist and like, you know, just basically insulting her. So I mean, you know, it's, it's just a very kind of, human, story from the time, like with all the social mores that are kind of attached, the, sort of, you know, restrictions and all that stuff. And it's actually, I, you know, as it evolves, you know, I did find that interesting as well. You know, it was just very fun to work in different timeframes. I lo… I love things with flashbacks.

27:48Jawad MirYeah.

27:48Christopher HargadonWhat you were saying about the, you know, features, the thing that's cool about a well-developed show, on a streamer is that you can really flesh out the story, you know, when you have more than two hours.

28:04Jawad MirYeah.

28:05Christopher HargadonAnd I find a lot of the features that I watch nowadays, I'm, I'm sort of looking at it thinking, "Where's the editor?" I mean, some of these films are long, but it's, but they're, they don't hold you because I don't know if they're trying to... Well, they're not just not editing them very well, I guess. I mean, I don't know if anybody else thinks that, but I've been finding, I'm kind of enjoying streamer shows more than, a lot of features that I've seen lately.

28:32Jawad MirYeah.

28:32Christopher HargadonThere are good ones, but...

28:34Jawad MirYeah. That's, that's true, but I feel now, at least for me, I'm starting to see good films coming out as opposed to... And I think one of the things that also has been the h… superhero fatigue.

28:46Christopher HargadonYeah.

28:46Jawad MirI think that is sort of phasing out now, which, I'm glad to see because I'm not a fan of them in any way.

28:53Christopher HargadonWell, now it's, now it's gonna be monsters.

28:56Jawad MirPro… probably. But you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting you mention that because, you know, if you pick up anything from the '70s, '80s, '90s, even the early 2000s, like, yeah, you could feel for the characters even within an hour and 50 minute movie.

29:13Jawad MirLike, you know, there would be that element. And I think a lot of times now in movies, the problem is there are too many characters, and that doesn't give you enough time to explore them. I mean, even if you look at this series, right? Like, if you just took the past era, like the '50s era, I mean, how many protagonists, how many characters there really are for you to focus on?

29:38Christopher HargadonOh, I know. I mean, that's…

29:39Jawad MirYou know?

29:39Christopher Hargadon... That's another element that, y… you know, you're probably one of the few people that would even notice that. But yeah, there were a lot of... I mean, you know, normally, on a project you have about seven, you know, maybe ten, seven to 11 or so principal characters. This one actually had about 25 or more, and they were also flying in from all over the world. So, you know, Kurt, for instance, you know, normally when you prep a show, as a designer, you, contact the lead actors in advance and you basically, you know, discuss the character and the, you know, plot line and where it's going and, you know…... Potential evolution or, you know, at least, at least the initial phase of the costuming. But, he was traveling, so he was in Europe and then I think he was in Hawaii. And so I actually, I don't think I ever talked to him. I might have exchanged an email or something like that, but he was sort of out of range. So when he arrived, I mean, he arrived and then we basically started working.

30:47Christopher HargadonSo I had to prepare multiple options because, you know, everything that any of those characters wore had to be multiplied by about a 10 ... Just for stunting and for breakdown, you know, and aging and all that kind of thing. So literally, I mean, his first, scene where he's in the, senior's residence, the sort of senior's prison, there was a whole room lined with racks of clothes. And the thing that was really cool about him, he was just terrific to work with because he's incredibly decisive. But I mean, I had my sort of picks, but, you know, he came in and he just went right to the racks and like, you know, chose his first, his second, and his third favorite, tried them on. His first favorite stayed his first favorite. You know, we discussed it back and forth. I also really liked it, you know, just to sort of show what, you know…

31:48Jawad MirSure

31:48Christopher Hargadon... Where he was in his, you know, life as this character, you know, in this home. And, so yeah, it's, but, you know, often I'd be building stuff like,.. I think for that I didn't build, but like other things that he wore. Once I knew him, like I was building a lot of jackets and things like that. But other people, this one lady came from England and, you know, she had a very kind of, interesting look. She's towards the end and, you know, I, it's escaping me, the name of the character, but she wore this long coat with a hood, and it was supposed to be a rain tower scene. It's right at the end. There's some kind of a disaster going on, and she's got this green raincoat. But, it's all done up. It's, it's kind of militaristic.

32:37Jawad MirRight. Yes.

32:40Christopher HargadonI have a photo of her actually. Let me just... I don't know if you can read this, but, I was just looking at some of these photos before.

32:55Jawad MirOh, right. Yes. Yes.

32:57Christopher HargadonSo that was fun. I did two options for her in two different colors because I wanted to, I wanted to give the DOP and the director a choice. And, anyway, so, you know, I got basic measurements from her and she showed up and played, you know, a day later, and, we just banged the thing out basically. So that's, you know, we work, we work with very interesting timelines. You know, we rely on miraculous sort of, turnarounds and, it's, it's actually just something that, something that's getting very tight because these streaming shows, have such, specific schedules. They want things done at a certain…

33:41Christopher Hargadon... Timeline. And so it's kind of condensed even more I find, you know, on big shows than it has been previously. So I'm very thankful for my training, you know, of years of dressing people in parking lots and all kinds of, you know, crazy situations that, you know, we're still able to provide. Because sometimes it gets a little, you know, there's not a lot of, you know, not a lot of, leeway. One time I was working in Albuquerque and they hadn't cast one of the lead people, but they said, "We're 99.9% sure it's gonna be this actress." And basically she was very short and very round and

34:23Christopher Hargadon... And Albuquerque isn't really the shopping capital of the world, so she was supposed to be like a high-end executive type person running an organization. But then, the day before she played, the morning before she was playing, I got a call and they said, "No, she's out. We've got this actress from New York coming," who was, like, completely different everything. You know?

34:47Jawad MirOh, crap.

34:47Christopher HargadonTaller, slimmer, like, you know, actually much easier probably to find things for. But yeah, we had a couple of hours basically in Albuquerque to find

34:59Jawad MirOh

35:00Christopher Hargadon... Clothes appropriate for this character. So, you know, it's, any costume person that you talk to could tell you these, like, hair-raising tales.

35:09Jawad MirYeah. It wasn't Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul, was it?

35:13Christopher HargadonNo, it was just after Breaking Bad. It was,.. I had a lot of the crew from Breaking Bad. It was actually a pilot that, I think it's on YouTube, but it was, it was about the colonization of Mars. So they're, we had to, I had to build space suits and…

35:29Jawad MirOh, cool

35:29Christopher Hargadon... It was, it was a very last-minute project. I'd come back from Africa, I think, and I got a call from, my agent at the time and she said, "Oh, we got this great job in Albuquerque." Like, you know, "They want you to leave tomorrow." And I'm like, "Well, I just got back from Africa, so I don't think so." And she started to yell at me because she said, "You've been wanting something like..." So anyhow, I ended up, I took the plane and when I walked into the wardrobe room, or not the wardrobe room, the production office, the director and the production designer, I thought they were gonna kiss me because I guess they just hadn't been able to find a costume designer at that time. And, the producer knew me, so she had reached out. But we were like two weeks to camera, and there was some massive builds on that thing, so

36:23Jawad MirI bet. I bet

36:25Christopher HargadonBut yeah, the reason…

36:26Jawad MirYeah, that's…

36:26Christopher Hargadon... Ours, it was a good environment for that

36:29Jawad MirIt, one of the things that you mentioned, that series, you know, the new streaming series, it shows have, you know, tight deadlines and stuff. And, you know, at least for me, and I'm sure it's true t… for you too, we always work at our best when it's, you know, the time is really under crunch.

36:49Jawad MirBecause we don't, we don't second-guess ourselves. It's like, okay, your instinct. Because the more time you have, then you're always like, you know, this, that. But that, all that year of work, like, you know, that you were talking about, imagine back then thinking that was preparing you for something like this, right?

37:08Christopher HargadonYeah.

37:08Jawad MirI mean, it's, in hindsight, it's just, if you think about it, like it'll probably, you know, give you goosebumps, I'm sure, that's what I did, what I did to be here where I am and to deal with it.

37:18Christopher HargadonWell, I mean, there's something to be said for experience. Certainly, you know, trial and error, you know, knowing what works, what doesn't work. And, I was thinking when you were saying that of a quote. I have a brother who, w… is a lawyer and, years ago he said to me, "I find that fear is a great motivator." But, I'm actually c… I actually never feel fearful. I mean, I always feel pretty confident and, you know, I mean, I've had the great fortune of working with people that trust me. So basically, you know, they've, I guess, you know, most of the showrunners or people on these kind of situations where, you know, we're on a streaming show, once they know me, they let me go and do it. And then, you know, there'll be the odd change once in a while. Maybe they want…

38:13Jawad MirSure

38:13Christopher Hargadon... Something a little different. But for most of the time, you know, y… you can't really have, there's that adage, time, money, quality. And, you know, I mean, you can't pick any two. You can't have, great quality with, you know, no money or no time. Like, you need, you need to have two of these factors in order for anything to work out. So it's, it's, it's been good for me to have people that, I guess are okay with what I'm giving them.

38:46Jawad MirYeah, that's…

38:47Christopher HargadonI mean, I've never put anything on camera that I'm not happy with, to be honest. I mean, sometimes I'm not happy if I see the way it was set on the person if I wasn't there to correct it or something. But, you know, I can't recall and I, you know, I've never, I've never because of time or anything like that told an actor that they looked good if I thought that they needed more work. Like I would, I just, you know, that's another really important factor is having the trust of your cast. Because, you know, it's very personal. This is, this is their costume and many actors, they need that costume to get in, help them get into that part and help them get into that person.

39:32Jawad MirYeah.

39:32Christopher HargadonSo that's, you know, that's something that, I feel I really like about, this job is, you know, supporting people in that.

39:46Jawad MirThat's awesome. H… there were five directors on this series, right? And you worked with all five of them directly?

39:55Christopher HargadonYeah.

39:58Jawad MirWhat was working? What was one unif… one element in all five of them that sort of helped you do the work that you're doing, that you were doing in this series?

40:10Christopher HargadonWell, normal… normally when, Matt Shakman was our first two episodes, I think, and then he came back for the last episode.

40:18Jawad MirYeah.

40:19Christopher HargadonSo often when you have the initial director, they have, and I know this is an executive producer as well, so they often have the, like a lot of input. They'll, you know, they will, you know, yay or nay certain looks on different characters. And, you know, he had a fair bit of input as to how he saw, the char… certain characters to be, and, I mean, sometimes you also get this from the showrunner, the person who's overseeing the writing of the scripts.

40:59Christopher HargadonSome showrunners are very involved and then others are stand back a little bit more. But anyway, so Matt, had a lot of input at the beginning and, but then normally, the directors who come in for, you know, subsequent episodes are... I always think it's hard for them. So I feel like part of my job is to help orient them as to what's come before and, you know, just to give my perspective on certain aspects of the production.

41:36Jawad MirSure

41:36Christopher Hargadon... So, but I mean, usually when they've come in and they're, they're moving along, unless there's a new character that comes in, the ball's already kind of rolling, so they're, they're not gonna come in and say, "Hey," like, you know, "we want to change the hair and makeup and wardrobe on this particular person." I mean, it doesn't really make sense. So

41:59Jawad MirYeah

41:59Christopher Hargadon... And they were all, they were all good. I mean, I really liked all those directors. They were, they were all very pleasant to work with and had a creative visual, ability, all of them. They, yeah, you don't, you don't always get that on a series. Sometimes you get people that come unprepared or, you know, they sort of think things can be done that are literally impossible. So it was a good experience on that show.

42:34Jawad MirAwesome. Just to kinda close things up, what's one period that you would love to design costumes for, whether it's a series or a film?

42:45Christopher HargadonFuturistic.

42:45Jawad MirThat you haven't done so. Futuristic?

42:48Christopher HargadonFuturistic, yeah.

42:50Jawad MirWhat would…

42:50Christopher HargadonFuturistic,?

42:52Jawad MirSorry, I was... Go ahead. I'll, I'll ask you afterwards. Go ahead.

42:55Christopher HargadonFuturistic in a way that, isn't typical to what you always see. I mean, I think that, you know, having the time, like, to develop fabrics, you know, custom develop fabrics,.. You know, the human body is a certain shape, so there's a limited number of things you can do to a person. And, you know, how would things evolve, you know, in dress? I mean, we can see it now that people dress more for comfort than they do for, you know, actual... When you're comparing it to something from, you know, a previous decade, you know, back to the '20s or '30s or '40s. Beautiful, creative, you know, sort of intricate work. But, you know, getting dressed up back then was, like, sort of being uncomfortable for a lot of people. Whereas now, you know…...

43:57Christopher HargadonThe stretch in fabrics, you know, that came in at a certain point within the last few decades. And, you know, in the '80s, things got... You know, I was designing clothes in the '80s. You know, we got into sweatwear, and it was all kind of, you know, baggy and, you know, all different kinds of styles of sweat stuff. But then when clothes started to get more form conscious again, they introduced, like, stretch. So you could have that comfort, but it was, you know, fitted and sort of, like, more complimentary in a way. Anyway, just sort of figuring out all those, the way fashion could evolve, you know, how people would dress. And, that's, that's one that I think would be very challenging. And I think that, you know, you'd wanna have a bit of time to figure that out. Just so you're not kind of repeating what's already been done.

44:50Jawad MirYeah.

44:51Christopher HargadonI mean, obviously, there's gonna be overlaps and sort of, you know, similarities, but that would be interesting. And then honestly, anything, when you start to research it, becomes interesting. You know, I did a movie one time, and there was a whole scene that took place in Harlem. But we weren't shooting in Harlem, so, I was walking around Harlem, just kind of, like, looking. And I think that was the first time I'd been there, and just looking at how people were dressed. And, you know, I saw one young guy. He was, you know, walking down the road, and he... It was s… sweltering hot, and he was wearing a tank, white tank, and then he had a white T-shirt over top. But he'd pulled it up and so it was diagonal. He had one sleeve on and one sleeve crunched up against his neck. So he sort of had two pieces of clothes on, but he'd done something to it. And when we were back, you know, in Toronto shooting the scene, the Harlem exterior, I was on set and I dressed someone like that.

45:54Christopher HargadonAnd then, you know, somebody who was working that day with us said, "Well, who would dress like that?" And I said, "Well, if you went down to Harlem, you know, you might see somebody dressed like this." And so that's, that's always fun, just to actually be able to, you know, actually recreate. Sometimes you see people on the street, and, you know, this is a thing amongst costumers. We'll sort of say, "If you saw that in a movie, you'd never believe it." Because some…... Sometimes people, with their own individual creativity, just put stuff together.

46:27Jawad MirYeah.

46:27Christopher HargadonI was on the subway in Toronto when I was a student, and there was a woman wearing all plastic. She had, like, a plastic shower cap on and all sorts of humidity sort of inside. Plastic raincoat, plastic boots, and she was explaining about how when the Messiah came, he would recognize her because she was dressed only in plastic.

46:48Jawad MirAwesome.

46:48Christopher HargadonSo…

46:48Jawad MirThat's such a visionary thing.

46:51Christopher HargadonWell, exactly. And, you know, something I wouldn't have made up, but...

46:57Jawad MirYeah. You know, when you said futuristic and sci-fi, sci-fi, to me, I... And maybe, I'm missing other movies, the one that stands out the most in terms of costume is The Fifth Element. I don't know if you've seen that with Bruce Willis.

47:11Christopher HargadonYeah.

47:11Jawad MirAnd yeah, like, that had some really unique, costumes. Other films have, too, like Judge Dredd, Total Recall. But to me, that stands out the best. You know, this has been great. Thank you so much for your time. I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.

47:30Christopher HargadonIt went very fast. How long have we been?

47:32Jawad MirAbout 50 minutes.

47:35Christopher HargadonOh.

47:36Jawad MirYeah.

47:36Christopher HargadonWell, yeah, you're very engaging.

47:39Jawad MirWell, so are you.

47:41Christopher HargadonYes. No, thanks so much. So can I just ask you, so are you a documentary filmmaker?

47:46Jawad MirYes. Yes.

47:49Christopher HargadonOh, I'd love to see, some more of your work. Is it…

47:52Jawad MirYeah, so they're, they're right here, the posters that you see. Citizen of Moria, it's available on Amazon Prime. Not in Canada. It's in US and UK, but if you google Citizen of Moria, the, it's available on VOD. And you can, grab it from there. And same thing with In Search of My Sister. That'll be on Amazon Prime in the next couple of weeks.

48:17Christopher HargadonWonderful.

48:17Jawad MirBut, yeah.

48:17Christopher HargadonYeah, I got Amazon, and I've definitely heard of In Search of My Sister. Yeah, I…

48:23Jawad MirBut you won't be able to watch them in Toronto unless you're on VPN, so just... It's, not available in Canada yet.

48:30Christopher HargadonOkay.

48:30Jawad MirOnly in US and Europe.

48:32Christopher HargadonAll right.

48:32Jawad MirBut they are available on Vimeo on Demand for, in worldwide if you wanna watch them.

48:37Christopher HargadonAll right. Awesome. Well, I do.

48:42Jawad MirGreat. No, I, again, thank you so much. I would love to have this conversation again sometime in the future about another one of your past project or something that's coming up whenever you're ready to talk about it.

48:53Christopher HargadonAbsolutely, anytime.

48:55Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.