'Wonder', Cinematographer, Don Burgess

0:09Don BurgessGood. Good to see you.

0:10Jawad MirGood to s…... Yeah, likewise. Are you in Atlanta now?

0:13Don BurgessI am in Atlanta. I'm actually gonna head home tomorrow, probably for a week, I imagine.

0:21Jawad MirRight.

0:23Don BurgessSo yeah. But, got a couple weeks in down here.

0:29Jawad MirGood. Pre-planning going well, I'm assuming?

0:33Don BurgessYou know, it is. We're, we got a, we got some struggles going on down here. But, the director's wonderful, Kenny Leon. Great guy, so I've enjoyed getting to know him and, you know, it's always interesting at the very beginning of a film that you gotta get together in a hurry, and also get to know somebody that you're gonna make a movie with.

0:59Jawad MirYeah.

0:59Don BurgessYou know, but it's coming along great. You know? It's coming along great. So we'll see. We just, we just we got a lot to do.

1:11Jawad MirWell, that's good. That's good to hear. And I guess, you know, one of the cool things about, like you said, is getting to know people very quickly in the beginning, but it's funny when you're in production, you don't realize how much you've come to know them, and then when before you know it, the production is over and it's like, "Whoa, that was quick." I'm sure you experience that all the time.

1:30Don BurgessYeah, it's an interesting thing making movies, you know? I mean, you spend so much time together in this concentrated period…

1:38Jawad MirYeah

1:38Don Burgess... And then you may not see each other again for years, you know? You know, you'll occasionally bump into somebody or, you know, or, there'll be a reason for a call. But it, you know, it's... And I always like to do, especially when it's the first time I've worked with a director, I like to, after the movie is done, you know, sit down and have a cup of coffee and talk about it.

2:05Jawad MirYeah

2:05Don Burgess... Just because of the experience of, you know, making a movie together and then seeing how it turns out, and then going back and kinda say, "Hey, you know, this actually turned out pretty good. Great job," you know? So it's, it's fun to reconnect after, you know, the intensity and, you know, this, these days that you come and you shoot, you know, and you're so focused on just getting the work done and…

2:35Jawad MirRight

2:35Don Burgess... Solving the problems, that, you know, you don't have a lot of time to, get to know each other on a personal level a lot of times, you know? You don't, you don't have that opportunity, and sometimes it's better after the fact to kinda sit down and, you know, have a meal or just a cup of coffee and go, "Hey," you know? "I love what you did there."

2:56Jawad MirYeah.

2:58Don BurgessYou know, so anyway.

2:59Jawad MirThat... No, that's, that's good. I, it's funny you mention that, because I remember I was watching a clip on, by Kevin Bacon. I think he was on Howard Stern's show. And he mentioned the same thing. He was like, "One thing that really bothered me over the years was you make a movie, you get to know people, and everybody disappears, and then nobody gets in touch."

3:19Don BurgessRight.

3:19Jawad MirAnd then it took him, like, a long time to get used to it, because not everybody's, you know, everybody has a different personality. And it's interesting that people do move on and people do forget, and it's not in any way intentional to hurt anybody. It's just life moves forward. And everybody's busy.

3:37Don BurgessRight, and you go back to your personal lives and your families and your friends back home, you know?

3:43Jawad MirYeah.

3:43Don BurgessIt's, it's really two different lives.

3:46Jawad Mir100%. Saw Wonder again. I saw it first time I would say probably 2018, 2019, around that time, I think it came out in 2017, with my kids who were six and seven at the time. And, you know, it struck a chord at the, at that time, and then I watched it again this morning. And again, same thing, it's a very, you know, straightforward, simple story that a lot of people can relate to. And, you know, despite the fact that it was based on a novel, it had a very much feeling of Chris Columbus films like Mrs. Doubtfire, Home Alone, Nine Months. And i… you know, it just, it just was tr… again, like I said, very simple, but very powerful and effective film. How did you come on board, with Stephen, I don't know how to pronounce his la… last name. I'll let you do it.

4:43Don BurgessChbosky

4:43Jawad Mir... Stephen Chbosky?

4:45Don BurgessChbosky.

4:46Jawad MirChbosky. How did you get on board, on that film, you know, from the begin… the beginning process, basically?

4:56Don BurgessI believe it was David Hoberman, the producer, who I had worked with, in the past. And his partner, Mandeville Entertainment. I believe they were the ones that brought me into the mix. You know, they were, they had fallen in love with the project and, you know, I think David went to Julia and got her interested and, you know, it was one of those kind of projects where, you know, it kind of fed on the script and what the, what the film was about. And the author of the book, she came and visited. She was wonderful.

5:39Don BurgessAnd it was like, "So where did this come from?" You know? "Wh… where did you get the idea to write this book and why?" And she says, "Well, to be honest with you know, I took my kids in to get ice cream and there was one of these kids in the store, and I was, you know, I was really kind of taken, you know, almost appalled by the behavior of my kids and how they o… how they reacted to what was going on." And so she said, "You know, I've got to, I've gotta write a book about this so that, you know, ultimately it's fear and people just need to understand what's really going on. And, you know, it's not, it's not something horrible. It's actually, you know, there's a kid in there." And so the book became hugely successful and, you know, it's like every fifth grader, you know, in a lot of places it's required reading.

6:39Don BurgessAnd, I had never heard of the book until we made the movie. And it w… it was the first time working with Stephen, and he's a writer, very successful screenwriter. And had directed a couple of movies. And so I really enjoy working for writers. I really enjoy that part of the process where you're, you know, you're... I mean, he didn't originally write the script either, which is really quite interesting.

7:07Jawad MirYeah.

7:07Don BurgessBut he had done a movie about teenagers, you know, a successful movie about teenagers. And so he kinda, you know, fit into the mold of whatever they were looking for when they were looking for a director. And so, you know, he eventually became, he got involved in the writing ultimately and has a writing credit in, on the movie. So he did actually get involved. It's impossible not to, I imagine.

7:31Jawad MirRight.

7:31Don BurgessAnd so, you know, I kinda love that experience just working with writers and what they, how they describe what the scene is about and how it, how it plays into the screenplay. And so, I love that part of it. And he was, you know, terrific with those kids. All those kids have gone on to be successful actors in their own right.

8:00Jawad MirRight.

8:00Don BurgessYou know? But, you know, great casting. And, ultimately, you know, getting all those kids ultimately to be kids, you know, on camera is, you know, it's great. It's great. And Jacob Tremblay was a star before the film.

8:19Jawad MirYeah. You mentioned... Sorry, go on.

8:23Don BurgessOh, no. Go ahead.

8:25Jawad MirNo, I was gonna say you mentioned that how you like working with writers because they can describe a scene, you know, probably a little bit more effectively than just a director, with obviously exceptions. Is it, you know, i… in terms of other writers that you may have worked with in the past, do you feel that it's been consistent difference between writer-director and a just director in any ki… in any project?

8:52Don BurgessSure. Absolutely. I think, I think that, you know, I worked with Brian Helgeland on 42. He's a, he started out, you know, as a writer first, then became a director and, you know, and does both. And, you know, a very successful screenwriter and also become a very successful director. You know, it's, it's, you know, and of course Emeka's wrote screenplays also, and still writing.

9:21Don Burgess... And, so I, you know, I think that I enjoy the process with the writer that's, in essence they're more writer than they are director when they start out, and eventually they become more director. And I think it's as they're finding their footing and finding their voice with images that they've had as a writer that, you know, some can make the transition and some can't, you know? It's, it's, it's literally, you know, like when I asked a writer, said, you know, "So, you know, what did, what did you see up here when the kid's up on the stage?" And he says, "Well, I don't know." He says, "I've only seen it from the kid's point of view looking out into the audience." You know, he's never thought about the fact that, well, he's up on stage and the audience needs to see him up on stage, and now what's behind him and what do you see, you know, all those things. Oh, you know there's, that's, you know, that's like taking it out of a book and, you know, or out of a written page and then putting it on the screen for an audience to understand. So there's a language that they need to learn, you know, that they have to take the writing hat off, put the directing hat on to make the movie.

10:37Jawad MirThat's interesting you mention that how in the book you're always looking at it from the protagonist's standpoint and, you know, it's so true but I never actually thought about that because I, you know, as a director myself, like I think always like a director, like what the background would be, would be, you know, this scene would be and that scene would be.

10:55Don BurgessSure.

10:55Jawad MirSo it's fascinating how people's minds work and, you know, everybody's different.

11:00Don BurgessYeah. I mean, so I come in, you know, as the cinematographer and I'm like, "Well look, you know, I think we need to see this, you know? And then w… we should, the audience will understand this and then we need to hit this shot, and we'll come around and see..." I see the, I see the movie. I'm always got a movie playing in my head, you know? So when I'm reading the page, I'm making the movie as I'm reading the page. And so a… a lot of times I'm missing the you know, the actual red dot of the scene, what it's really all about, because of the words and h… and how people are, you know, what they're saying and maybe what they're not saying ultimately. And so…

11:45Jawad MirRight

11:45Don Burgess... So a lot of times I'm fascinated by how it's edited together and how, or I've seen two different editors cut the same scene together and it's like, whoa, you know, that's amazing the difference between what those two editors saw in the material and what they cut together. And so that's, you know, it's the fascinating thing about cinema in itself is ultimately what all those images mean when you tie them together.

12:17Jawad MirYeah, speaking of editing, one thing I really loved about the editing, it was it treated the film as a, as a book, right? Chapters, and especially…

12:25Don BurgessRight

12:25Jawad Mir... The first chapter and the second chapter. When the second chapter begins, with the sister, who's played by Isabella, I think… ... You see her day in the b… in the second chapter that was already happening in the first.

12:41Don BurgessRight.

12:41Jawad MirAnd then you see her whis… whispering into her brother's ear…

12:44Don BurgessRight

12:44Jawad Mir... Which we don't hear in the first, chapter, but we hear in the second. And I thought that was really cool and neatly done.

12:52Don BurgessRight.

12:52Jawad MirYou know, just giving her perspective and it felt like a book. It literally felt like a book, the whole movie.

12:58Don BurgessYeah, which I love and the, it brought kind of the innocence to it, like, you know, it was a book written for fifth graders, you know? So we as, you know, adults get to sit there and kind of enjoy this movie as kids again in some ways. And I don't know what it is about that film, but I cry every time I see it. You know, there's just certain scenes that get to me between, especially, you know, the mother and the father a… and the chil… and the child, you know? You know, because I have kids and I have grandkids and I've, I've, I…

13:33Jawad MirRight

13:33Don Burgess... Going through this for a while that I think it touches me on that level. And so, you know, another interesting thing about filmmaking is that, you know, if you, if you make a movie it's gonna touch people from eight to 80, but in different ways.

13:47Jawad MirYeah.

13:47Don BurgessLike what they get out of that.

13:50Jawad MirIt's interesting you mention that because when I was watching it the second time, I mean, just like yourself, there were moments that really tore me up. And I thought about it in that moment that why is it, why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? Is it because I have kids or is it because I'm, I'm remembering something from the past or is it something that I can relate to?

14:11Don BurgessRight.

14:11Jawad MirAnd it's really hard to pinpoint that, but I think it's a combination of everything because we remember our childhood. You know, we all go through stuff, right? Everybody's gone through different, challenges and stuff.

14:23Don BurgessRight.

14:23Jawad MirAnd we just connect to those characters and they're, they're so well-written. There are certain moments between the daughter and the mother, you know, being ignored by her parents that, you know…

14:32Don BurgessRight

14:32Jawad Mir... Auggie is the world. So I think it's a combination of thing. I was thinking about that too, like why is it affecting me because I mean, I don't necessarily have a child that's go… going through something like that, but still.

14:45Don BurgessRight. Right. I mean, I, listen, I just went through something with one of my, I have two older sisters… ... And a brother and I just went through a moment with one of them and they were, you know, they said something about, you know, of course our childhood and I'm like, "Really?" You know? "Well, that's interesting. I never really saw it like that before," you know? And, you know, same parents, two older sisters, one younger brother, and we, and we all have our way that we saw it and what we, what we grasped from those situations as children growing up. It's really interesting. So I think that as, you know, it, I ended up, I ended up, because of my daughter gave me this Christmas present, it was called StoryWorth, and every week, you know, you get this question they send you a… and you have a file, and so you have to answer the question.

15:37Don BurgessAnd the question is, you know, well, you know, where was your first school and w… what was your first trip you went on with the family, and all this thing is kind of, you know, that you did as a child growing up into adulthood and all these different questions. So you get one for every week for the y… for a year. And then, you know, you write these and so, you know, I wrote all these little stories about the questions about all that. And so I finished it and then, you know, you make a little book out of it. And so, you know, I gave one to each one of the grandkids and they, and sent it to my siblings. And so, you know, they all read it. I was like, "So, you know, did I get this stuff right?" You know, "Is that how you guys remember it?" And for the most part they enjoyed it and they liked the storytelling, but it was pretty funny to kind of, you know, have these conversations with my adult, you know, my one sister's 74, the other sister's 71, and then, you know, myself and I have a younger brother who's, 65, 64.

16:39Don Burgess60… 65. And so, you know, it's interesting, you kind of, you know, take these moments and you relate to your siblings on a level which I don't think you would do at our ages unless it wasn't something bringing up those questions. And…

17:06Jawad MirYeah

17:06Don Burgess... And so I think cinema does a lot of that. Cinema does a lot of you sit in that theater and you connect to these characters on a, on some kind of a level, that, you know, makes you think about this stuff. And, you know, the great filmmakers just have a way of having a point of view and showing us something ultimately which is a ver… a simple story like…

17:37Don Burgess... With, like Wonder, and yet kind of brings out these emotions and feelings in us that are inside of us. And, you know, like I said, the movie makes me cry. Now, when I read the script it didn't make me cry. You know, I didn't…

17:52Jawad MirFascinating. Interesting

17:54Don Burgess... I didn't, I didn't, I didn't like, I might have said, "Well, this is, this'll be g… you know, my wife's really gonna like this part," you know, or things like that.

18:00Jawad MirYeah.

18:01Don BurgessBut I s… certainly after making it and then watching it, and I remember the thr… when I did the DI on the movie, I would get choked up. I'm like, and I've never, that's actually never happened to me, that I can remember anyway. And so I found it, you know, I found it really interesting and I was fascinated by that it had that effect on me.

18:23Jawad MirThat is pretty interesting and in a different way cool at the same time because I also think some movies, you know, there are so many movies like, you know, family movies that come out or relationship movies, you know, whether it's the, was it The Whale that came out last year?

18:39Don BurgessRight.

18:40Jawad MirOr Chris Columbus stuff, John Hughes, or other family films that come out. Most of them you don't feel the same way as you would with the others, and I wonder sometimes is it because the director or the writer, or in this case the director because it was a, you know, a one experience that changed into the other. They incorporate a lot of their personal stuff because they went through it. Because you can feel, when you feel that emotion…

19:08Don BurgessRight

19:08Jawad Mir... I sometimes feel that there's something personal in there that just clicks with us because it's genuine and it's real.

19:14Don BurgessYep. I agree.

19:17Jawad MirYeah.

19:18Don BurgessI agree. I…

19:19Jawad MirAnd yeah.

19:22Don BurgessGo ahead.

19:23Jawad MirNo, please go ahead. I thought you were done with your thought. I'm, I'm, I'm done. Go ahead.

19:28Don BurgessI'm not even quite sure what I was gonna say, to be honest with you, I, where I was going. But you know, I think, I think what I was, what it's about is, tone. So w… when you see a Chris Columbus movie, there's a certain tone to that movie, right?

19:48Don BurgessAnd I, in o… on Wonder, you know, it had this kind of a light tone of this nice kind of, you know, family. Obviously there's a, you know, you could, you could play that, you could play that really dark. You could play that miserable. You could really push the misery of that kid a long way.

20:10Don BurgessBut yet the tone of the screenplay and the casting and the art direction and the cinematography, you know, mo… put that film in a, I think the right tone.

20:25Jawad Mir100%, I agree with you.

20:26Don BurgessFor the way that story should be told. And I think you don't have to, you don't have to get gritty and down and harsh to get certain, things across.

20:40Jawad MirEmotions. Yeah.

20:41Don BurgessRight? Emotions across to the audience. So I think it's always important to figure that out, with every movie that you make, and struggle with it, you know? And when I go to, when I, when I figure out how to light a movie, when I figure out how to shoot a movie and what lenses I'm gonna use and light and composition and color, you know, I really, I fight with that right up to the sometimes to the first day of shooting.

21:13Don BurgessSometimes into the film. You know? I try to get it all figured out because I like to have a game plan from beginning to end before I start shooting. That's ultimately the best, you know, way to start, but it doesn't always happen, you know? Sometimes you keep fighting with it. And as the movie kinda takes shape and as you start shooting and you start seeing the performances and y… you, then you kinda grasp onto it and you kinda get a feel for it, starts making sense.

21:44Jawad MirRight.

21:44Don BurgessSo yeah.

21:46Jawad MirYeah. Now for sure, before I go into the technical aspects, I just wanted to bring, well, ta… ask about one more thing. You talked about, you know, choking up and all that. Was, what was the scene that you were on the set the first time that it, did it get to you? Was there a certain performance or certain scene that got to you in that moment while you were working?

22:06Don BurgessI think that, I thought, I thought the mother-daughter stuff was really good in the way that they performed, especially Julia. And especially when she ended up being in the play. And i… and of course there's a little bit of humor where Owen Wilson has his glasses on and Julia forgot her glasses. And of course, you know, once they realize that's her on stage she s… steals the glasses off her husband, which is, you know, a funny moment and true. And that'll always happen. And then at the end when she sees her daughter, you know, and has to put it all together like, "Oh my God, you know, we, I've been so focused on my son and his problems, and you were, you were the easy kid, and you just kind of seemed to always know what you were doing, and I'm so sorry," you know, ultimately.

23:28Jawad MirYeah.

23:28Don Burgess"That I, you know, have left you to fend for yourself ultimately and growing up, you know, as a teenager. No easy chore, you know?" And so, it's a great mo… moment, and I think it works out wonderful in the movie, and i… that movie gets, that moment gets to me every time I see it, you know? When she d… when she comes backstage after the play and the, and the two of them, you know, meet eye to eye.

23:55Jawad MirI, it, I literally when I saw it this morning, that scene when she just goes like this.

24:01Don BurgessLike she just points at her.

24:02Jawad MirYeah, and she doesn't say a word. Oh, yeah. You're so right. That was just so, and her performance was amazing. It was just powerful. Very powerful.

24:11Don BurgessYeah.

24:12Jawad MirTechnically, Don, when you decided to work on this film and trying to get a feel of the lighting, of the cinematography, how were you gonna approach it? What was that story like? Like, what kind of process you went through? Did you change back and forth, or was it easy to figure out working with Stephen?

24:35Don BurgessYou know, Steven was, you know, very open to ideas, and I suggested that we would take an hour every morning, and just go through the, script page by page. And, you know, and not try to, you know, work fast through it. Just start with scene one, what do you see? You know, and then, you know, what is our transition to scene two? You know, I always like to try to get transitions thought about between scenes. How do you see it? You know, where do you think you'll start on? Where do you think that, where do you think we sh… can go with this? So I'll, I'll tr… I'll do that page by page. You just do an hour every morning and get as far as you get, 'cause the directors are, they're so busy. They're casting. They're looking at props. They're gotta look at locations. There's just a million things they gotta do all at the last minute before you shoot a movie. But I always try to get that time with the director to go through the script page by page quietly, just the two of us, without everybody else asking questions, and just develop a language of how we're gonna shoot the movie. And then learn from... You know, ask them questions and learn from their responses to what they're seeing and what they wanna see and, you know, where this thing is going.

25:53Don BurgessAnd then, you know, as you scout locations with the production designer, you s… you start looking at locations, and you start narrowing them down. So, you know, we looked at a lot of schools, you know.

26:05Don BurgessAnd shot the movie in Vancouver.

26:08Jawad MirOh, did you? Okay, I didn't, okay.

26:09Don BurgessShot it in Vancouver, and then there was a second unit, that my son shot actually, in New York City afterwards in post-production.

26:19Jawad MirOkay

26:19Don Burgess... To get some of those wider shots to establish the whole New York City part of it. And so, you know, just right down to, we'd look at schools, and the production designer, you know, very, she was wonderful. And she had all kinds of things that she was showing us. And, a… and Steven was kind of looking like this, you know, and s… trying to grasp the feeling for the school and what it should be and where these scenes would take place and all that. And so I try, I try to, like, reel him in. You know, I try to reel him in. I say, I s… I hear, I listen to the production designer, why, you know, this school and why we could do this and how this will work and the feeling of the school itself. And I, and I try to, I try to ground him and land him, es… especially with Steven 'cause he's, being a writer, he's, he's out here a lot. And so I try to bring him back down to, okay, you know, here we are. Here's the cafeteria, you know. There are the bad kids sitting over there.

27:21Don BurgessHere's our kids sitting here, and you can see them. And we got a shot of him in the foreground, and they're in the background. And maybe the girls are over there. And, you know, you s… you start diagramming it and looking at and trying to land it. And so, you know, and you do that in all the different places that you look. And then ultimately, y… you know, you know, the production designer's first choice was the school that we shot, and ultimately it was mine also once we looked at all the schools.

27:53Don BurgessAnd so it was c… then kind of like making the director kind of feel comfortable in this particular school 'cause, well, look, we can shoot this here. You know, and this could be the classroom and, this is a good classroom. And where are the kids gonna sit? Well, maybe the kids, he's gonna sit here, and that's where the empty seat is. And all these kids in the front row, and the bad kids sit in the back, and they have to relate to each other. So you start figuring out where to put all those kids, you know. You start talking it through. And then let's go outside. And, well, can we, can we shoot this school for the outside and this school for the inside maybe? Can we do this? What, where the parents walk up and they drop him off, and he takes the helmet off of him. Look at this spot right here. This works nice. Look at the wa… you know. So you kinda go through it shot by shot, and you try to ground the film in an aesthetic that makes sense. And, i… it all starts, you know, at first there's so much, but ultimately you gotta, you gotta land, and you gotta hang your hat, and you gotta start.

28:59Don BurgessAnd you gotta work through it all the w… all the different scenes that you gotta accomplish. And the, it's gonna start feeling right. You know, you're gonna go with your gut at a certain point and say, "Practically, yes, we can shoot here. We have all the elements to shoot the movie here." Is it, you know, what's better about that school? What do you like about that school versus this school? And then, you know, you kind of, ultimately find it and it starts making sense and starts feeling good and starts feeling like a movie. You know? And ultimately you're, you know, I think you're just making a big stew at the end of the day, and you just keep putting the ingredients in there, you know.

29:46Jawad MirYeah.

29:47Don BurgessAnd you keep stirring, you know, until it, until it tastes good, you know, and gets to the right temperature. So, you know, it's, it's an interesting prospe… process. When you first start you can't imagine that you're gonna actually find all of it. But we're all making a movie. Everybody's making a movie in their head. Everybody looking at a movie is making a movie in their head. And then ultimately you gotta try to, land on making the right movie, and understand ultimately the movie that's going on in the director's head. At the end of the day you gotta have a, you know, a captain of the ship, and that's, that's ultimately gonna drive all of us, you know, the right direction. Hopefully the wind's blowing the right direction once we put all this together.

30:38Jawad MirYeah, no, absolutely. And one thing, you mentioned about positioning kids in the classroom, and I'm glad you mentioned that because I noticed it normally in a film, in a story like this where there's bullies and there's a kid who's going through stuff, he or she is always sitting in the back. Always. And in this film he was sitting in the far corner left in the front. I mean, it kinda dictates his position of a character too, but I thought that was really... It was obviously different, but it was also the relationship that he had with the other kid who was mean to him. I forget his name.

31:13Jawad Mir... But just, you know, just making that eye contact back and forth, especially when he introduces himself and then he questions him, you know, you have that Jedi thing on. And that…

31:22Don BurgessYeah

31:22Jawad Mir... That was pretty cool I thought.

31:24Don BurgessRight. Yeah. You know, I think Steven's idea there, if I'm not mistaken, was that w… where Auggie was sitting was in a position where, the kids can only see him from the back. 'Cause it was all about…

31:43Don Burgess... Not being able to look at his face, and they were all the kids look down at, they don't actually look at him, they look down at the floor.

31:51Jawad MirYeah.

31:52Don BurgessSo he's always looking down at the floor, and he's always looking at people's shoes, and you can tell a lot about people by their shoes, that whole bit.

31:58Jawad MirRight.

31:59Don BurgessSo yeah. And then it was, then it was, for me it was, you know, his relationship to the other kids. The kid that, has the, you know, the first and last name, Jack Will… ... Who becomes his best friend.

32:16Jawad MirRight. Right.

32:17Don BurgessWonder… wonderful young actor who's just took off after this. You know, has done very well. And then where the other girls were sitting up front, and the relationship with Au… with Auggie, and seeing the bad guys behind him in the shot. And so I'm always looking when it comes to placing people, you know, I think Steven would start with the writer in him first and put people in positions, because of their character. And then I would come in behind that and go, "Yeah, but can we move him over a seat that way so we have a shot of him?" Because here's Auggie, right? Right in the foreground. He's in the background. We can see him there, right? And then if he's there, then we can shoot across this way. So we, and then when Auggie's looking at him we got this. And so, you know, I'm looking at that once we kind of have a theory about where kids would be in the classroom. Then I just kinda help shift around to get it so that we have shots, right?

33:19Don BurgessPut it, ma… make it… ... Get into the box, as I, as I call it, you know? We gotta get it into this frame. And so, which is, you know, it's that's to me that I love doing that. I love being able to get shots, but make it feel organic. And, you know, and dramatic when it needs to be, you know? But also…

33:52Jawad MirYeah

33:52Don Burgess... Kind of k… keep it on that edge where it f… feels real even though it is cinematic. So.

34:01Jawad MirYep. Yep. And s… speaking of that real part, there was one scene that I really, i… it really got to me too was when Miranda, is calling and Auggie picks up, and the camera dollies in when she's sitting on the staircase, and it never cuts and you always hear Auggie's voice instead of cutting back to him. And…

34:22Don BurgessRight

34:22Jawad Mir... The mo… the movement of the camera with the s… was so in much in synergy with her emotion. And, this is not a question, this is just a comment. Like, I really love the way you pulled on, pulled in on her and as she was going through different emotions, and looking up and down, and confused, and trying to hide her emotions, but also trying to show them at the same time.

34:43Don BurgessYes. So those discussions, are always, it's interesting because they're gonna, they're gonna show you spaces to shoot the mother and the daughter in. And, the only thing that I really liked about that location was that staircase and the, and the glass that was to her left, camera right.

35:12Don BurgessThat it gave you the dynamics for that moment of a phone conversation where you couldn't cut to the other side, it just had to play on her. It gave us the ability to use the camera move, to keep the interest on this side of the conversation. Like, I don't think you miss not cutting to the other side of the conversation. I think it played…

35:37Jawad MirYeah

35:37Don Burgess... Plays really well in that one sh… in that one shot of her. Great performance. You know, but it was that feeling like, yeah, I think we can make this work. I think we can make this interesting. I think this image and this composition and this camera move is gonna work in this situation. I always, when it comes to those double conversations, I always kind of set up the idea of generally we're gonna be left to right on this side of the conversation, and when we shoot the other person, it's gonna be generally right to left.

36:18Don BurgessKinda set up these opposing conversations as you cut back and forth, right? So like you, if you were, they were in the same room you would set up one as a right to left, the other one as a left to right ultimately when you get into the close-ups, right? So I always approach it that way on a ph… on phone conversations so that it gives you a starting point. Now, a s… a lot of times we'll do double moves, right? So it sometimes we'll do a little bit of a wrap and, you know, you try to make it interesting, but you also wanna make it… You'll wanna make it cinematically in sync with the structure of the scene. So the pace of the camera move and where you are in the scene has to all kind of mirror each other to a certain degree to get to the moment that it all connects. And so it's a starting point always in a phone conversation, you know, when you block one out.

37:11Jawad MirYeah.

37:11Don BurgessAnd from there it'll evolve and it'll get, you know, it'll become what it becomes, but that's a good starting point always when you're gonna shoot a conversation like that.

37:21Jawad MirWas there ever a scene filmed with Auggie, or was that always a preconceived, setup that we're not gonna do that?

37:28Don BurgessIt was a preconceived setup to do it without shooting the other side.

37:33Jawad MirAwesome.

37:35Don BurgessAnd that's, you know,.. They're tricky. 'cause when you read 'em sometimes, and it's funny, in this movie I'm doing right now there's several of them and I'm like, "W… we gotta shoot the other side here." I'm just not feeling great about a scene this long and not cutting to the other side. So, you know, they're, they're interesting questions and, that one, you know, I thought that one worked fine.

38:12Jawad MirYeah. It did

38:13Don Burgess... It... And so, and I don't know if we ever had a conversation about shooting this side. I don't, I don't remember, to be honest with you. But I don't recall…

38:23Jawad MirYeah. I was curious

38:24Don Burgess... I don't recall shooting... Yeah, I don't recall shooting Auggie in that situation. You know, that was, it was a difficult... He's in so many scenes, and I believe his makeup time was, started out as three hours and eventually it might have gotten down to two hours by the end of it. It took that long to get him ready. Now, he was young, he was young at that time, so, you know, you might only have him on the set for six hours a day.

38:55Jawad MirYeah.

38:57Don BurgessYou know?

38:57Jawad MirRight.

38:58Don BurgessThat's it. So it, so you, well, you have to, you have to ultimately there's a lot of scenes where he's, you know, you gotta shoot him out, and do the coverage without him. Or do his, in essence, the master and his coverage, that's all the time you got. He goes away, then you gotta shoot all the other parts of the scene…

39:22Jawad MirYeah

39:22Don Burgess... Without. And that happens with kids a lot anyway just 'cause of their time limitations on a movie set.

39:29Jawad MirRight.

39:29Don BurgessBut because of the makeup that made it even a really tough situation.

39:34Jawad MirSure.

39:36Don BurgessYeah.

39:36Jawad MirAnd what cameras did you guys, film it on?

39:41Don BurgessThat would have been the Red Weapon, I think.

39:46Jawad MirOkay.

39:47Don BurgessThat era, I think. Or the one previous to that. I'd ha… I'd have to think back. I don't, I don't recall exactly. But it was a Red camera. And, the lenses,.., oh, I should have looked up this stuff.

40:08Jawad MirThat's okay. That's okay.

40:09Don Burgess'Cause they're starting to all blend together in some way. But, 'cause I don't th… I wasn't shooting 8K at that time. I wasn't using Primo70s. And so it would have, it would have been either 4K or 6K and probably I would have used,.. Gosh.

40:39Jawad MirThat's okay. Don't worry about it.

40:40Don BurgessYeah.

40:40Jawad MirI didn't, I didn't mean to pinpoint, put you in the spot.

40:42Don BurgessI know. Sorry.

40:45Jawad MirIt's all good. It's all good. Yeah, no. But I think Red, had at the time Weapon Dragon, but that was 6K, I think. And then

40:55Don BurgessYeah. That right

40:56Jawad Mir... I think the 8K was called Monstrel or something. I'm not sure. I could be Red dead wrong. But in any case, I mean, we talked about a few things in the film, the emotions and the design, production design and planning. What was one scene, and I ask this all the time I speak to you, that was challenging but at the same time very fun to do, you know, in a way that it was something new that you had to tackle? I mean, the film looks pretty straightforward and simple in terms of story and everything, but I'm sure, you know, behind the scenes there's always stuff that, how to tackle certain things. Was there anything like that you can remember?

41:38Don BurgessYou know, I think the biggest challenge of that movie is, the amount of time you actually have those kids. You have to be super efficient, with the kids, how you're gonna shoot them. Sometimes you have to start scenes with half the kids. You don't even have all the kids when you start shooting. You, have to figure out how to break up the coverage so that you can shoot other kids when you, other, when other kids are going to lunch or that's all the time you have with them that day.

42:06Jawad MirYeah.

42:06Don BurgessSo I think that's the biggest challenging of doing those types of movies, and making it feel seamless like everybody's there all the time. You know? And that, you don't have that, you know? And so as I think back on it, that was probably the biggest challenge.

42:27Jawad MirYeah

42:27Don Burgess... You know, it was a wonder… it was a very positive, you know, experience on the set in that, people were all in on making this movie. You know, it was obviously made for a price. You know, you don't have all the money in the world to make those kind of movies. So a lot of people were… Are making sacrifices, in their salaries and their commitments and time to make films like that. And so that was, you know, so it kept the... Everybody was there for the right reasons, you know?

43:04Jawad MirYeah.

43:05Don BurgessSo that was, you know, that was great.

43:08Jawad MirRight.

43:08Don BurgessI was seeing if I ha… I was trying to see if I had that information here.

43:13Jawad MirNo problem.

43:14Don BurgessIt's, it's actually, it's driving me crazy that I don't remember. I've got all the... Let's see. Yeah, so it was, it was Panavision. So they were Primos. And so, it was probably if I was using Panavision it would have been, DXLs I think.

43:47Jawad MirOkay. Okay. Okay. Well, thanks for looking that up. I appreciate it. When the film came out did you... Were your grandkids old enough at the time? Did you take them to see them, the movies?

44:01Don BurgessWell, my... Yeah, I have some older ones. The ones that are now 15, 17 and 18, they're actually in the movie.

44:10Jawad MirOh, they are?

44:11Don BurgessYeah, so they came to visit me in Ba… in Vancouver. And so when you see, you know, the family walking to school, there's three boys behind them walking, and that's my grandsons. And so they used the shot twice. That's actually twice in the movie where they used it.

44:29Jawad MirYeah.

44:29Don BurgessThey're in both, they're in both shots. And then they also made it onto the poster. They used that picture of the family walking to school on the poster, and you see my three grandkids in the background behind them.

44:40Jawad MirOh, that's awesome. They must have got a double the fun out of it, you know, watching a good film, and also being your grand… you know, their grandfather…

44:46Don BurgessYeah

44:46Jawad Mir... Shot in it and them being in it.

44:50Don BurgessYeah. So they've, you know, the older boys have had a chance to... You know, they were on the set with The Muppets, they got pictures with The Muppets, and they, and they got to be in that film for a minute. And so they've, they've had fun doing that. The little ones, none of the little ones have been anywhere near it yet. So, you know…

45:09Jawad MirYeah

45:09Don Burgess... The parents are like, "Well, what about, you know, the rest of them?" I'm like, "Well, either I gotta bring them to wherever I'm making a movie, 'cause I don't make them here much anymore, or make them in Hollywood much anymore."

45:20Jawad MirYeah.

45:20Don BurgessBut…

45:21Jawad MirYeah

45:21Don Burgess... Anyway. It's good fun.

45:23Jawad MirAnd did they, did... What do they, what do they think of the film, like after they saw it? Did they come and tell you their thoughts and their...?

45:31Don BurgessYou know, they're, they're kind of funny. Actually, the, when they saw Aquaman. You know, we had a nice little family premiere of Aquaman at the local theater with lots of friends. And when the movie was over I said, "What'd you think?" And the young one said, "Finally grandpa, you make a good movie."

45:57Jawad MirWow.

45:58Don BurgessYou know…

45:58Jawad MirOnly kids can say something great like that.

46:03Don BurgessYeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

46:05Jawad MirYeah.

46:05Don BurgessSo when they get older they may look back on it…

46:07Jawad MirOne pause

46:07Don Burgess... And that's actually a really nice movie. But you know, I think they were too young to kind of express themselves.

46:16Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, it's, it, you know, the films that you saw of mine, like my kids have not seen it because they're just, they don't want to…

46:23Don BurgessRight

46:23Jawad Mir... 'cause of the topic and the intensity of it. And kids just don't really get into that kind of stuff unless, you know... Even if there is, they may just say, "Oh, this was something wrong with this and this. I can make that understand." Because they're just honest and straightforward.

46:37Don BurgessYeah. Yeah.

46:38Jawad MirWhen is Here coming out? I thought it was gonna come out this year. It looks like it's 2024 now.

46:44Don BurgessYes. So we, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the color timing of that in December. And so I don't, I haven't heard a release date yet on that movie. But they've had test screenings and

47:06Jawad MirI read about that this morning.

47:08Don BurgessOh, is that right?

47:09Jawad MirYeah. It's on... A month ago somebody posted like a paragraph how it's, it seems like a distant cousin to Forrest Gump with the time movie.

47:17Don BurgessOh, is that right?

47:18Jawad MirYeah.

47:19Don BurgessAnd maybe that somebody hasn't even seen the movie. They just see the Tom…

47:22Jawad MirYeah

47:22Don Burgess... Tom Hanks is in it, Robin Wright and Bob Zemeckis directing, and Eric Roth co-writing the screenplay with Bob. So yeah, so there's, there's similarities there. That's where it, that's where it ends though. There's, it's, it has nothing to do with that story.

47:38Jawad MirNo, I figured. I think he was just saying from a t… standpoint of time shifting, in Forrest Gump it shifted over like, you know, 20, 30 years…

47:45Don BurgessOh

47:45Jawad Mir... Or whatnot. In that sense I think.

47:48Don BurgessNo, that's... Yeah. No, that's true. Yeah.

47:51Jawad MirYeah.

47:51Don BurgessYeah. This has a much bigger time shift involved, which is, yeah, which makes it, makes it interesting. But you know, I haven't seen the movie yet. And I'm looking forward to seeing it, in December when I do the, do the DI. And you know, which means I'll be, you know, pro… I'll still be in Atlanta, and I'll, on the weekends they, I'll go into a facility here in Atlanta and they'll…

48:24Don Burgess... Project it, onto a screen, and I'll be able to talk to the colorist in Los Angeles live. So that's…

48:32Jawad MirThat's good.

48:33Don BurgessYeah, it's a good thing we can do that now. 'Cause it's…

48:36Jawad MirYeah, no, I'm so excited about that film. You have absolutely no idea. I'm really anticipating that. I think after Napoleon, that's, probably one of the top three films I'm looking forward to in the next few months, or whenever it comes out

48:50Don BurgessYeah, so yeah, so I just saw the ad for Napoleon, and it's coming out Thanksgiving weekend. And then…

48:56Jawad MirYeah

48:56Don Burgess... The Scorsese movie came out last weekend. I haven't seen it yet.

49:02Jawad MirNeither have I. I'm looking forward to it.

49:05Don BurgessOr that, yeah. I'm gonna go early, 'cause it's a three-hour movie.

49:09Jawad MirThree and a half. Three and a half I read.

49:11Don BurgessI… is it three and a half? By God.

49:13Jawad MirThat's, that's, that's what I read.

49:15Don BurgessYeah. Gotta keep it… Everything else…

49:19Jawad MirWell, it…

49:19Don Burgess... Has gotten small, shorter, smaller and faster, except movies. It's crazy.

49:25Jawad MirYeah, sometimes it's a good thing, but it depends if it works, I guess. Again, going back to that whole discussion of if you don't feel the movie's long enough, then it's great. But if, you know…

49:33Don BurgessRight

49:33Jawad Mir... Even the shortest movies feel like eternity. So as long as it's done really well.

49:37Don BurgessDid you see Oppenheimer?

49:39Jawad MirYes, I did.

49:41Don BurgessAnd that's…

49:42Jawad MirDid you?

49:43Don BurgessI did, and that's a three-hour movie.

49:46Jawad MirWhat did you think of it?

49:48Don BurgessWell, u… ultimately I enjoyed it. There's just certain things, that I didn't like about it. But overall, you know, a lot about it I liked. I'm, I think that the lead actor is a, is a wonderful actor and I really enjoy watching him on a screen, him playing that role.

50:12Jawad MirYeah.

50:12Don BurgessIt's interesting though, Matt Damon, who I love, I didn't like in the movie. So there was a lot of things that took me out of the movie. And other parts of it I thought were, you know... And a lot of Nolan's films, a lot of stuff in the movie is so good and so well done and thought out. And other stuff I just kind of takes me out of the film for a while. And then I get back into it when he, I think when he gets back focused on, you know, the story he's telling.

50:40Jawad MirYeah. I, and I gotta see it again because what threw me off in the film was the constant switch between 70 millimeter, like the IMAX, and the, you know, the 35 millimeter. And then also I just felt there was no breathing room. The music was there throughout the film. The editing was really fast-paced. It was a great history lesson. Like I learned a lot. Maybe I need to watch it again because…

51:04Don BurgessRight

51:04Jawad Mir... It, I, it's probably one of my least favorite Christopher Nolan films from a film standpoint, you know, not from a

51:10Don BurgessRight. Right

51:11Jawad Mir... Yeah, it just, it just, yeah, it took me out of the film so many times. So many times I got out of it, but I, maybe I need to watch it again.

51:19Don BurgessYeah. Well, I, you know, I think that we agree on that, you know, parts of it are really enjoyed and parts of it, you know, take you out of the movie. So I didn't know if it was because it's a three-hour movie and, you know, I don't know. But I can't say that I was looking at my watch ever. Like I wasn't sitting there bored at any moment in the film.

51:38Jawad MirYeah, neither was I.

51:41Don BurgessWhatever he's doing is always interesting. But I just, you know, it's hard for me to explain. I think that, the topic is fascinating, but I don't, I didn't like where he changed history and I'm not quite sure exactly why he would, he would do that, you know, with... But I, maybe it has to do with keeping the audience understanding so many different, characters that are in the film.

52:17Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

52:18Don BurgessI mean, he, you know, the Albert Einstein moment where he goes back and, you know, checks the meth, the math in essence, and Einstein basically says, you know, you know, "That's not my, that's not my specialty, this particular thing." But, you know... And he, and he never, he actually never had that conversation with that guy. It was with a…

52:41Jawad MirYeah

52:41Don Burgess... With a different guy. So there's things like that I'm gonna go, "Well, why? Now, did you really need to do that 'cause the audience recognizes this character and they're not gonna recognize the other character?" I mean, I don't know. I was…

52:53Jawad MirYeah. No, it…

52:54Don BurgessQuestion things like that, they, that bothers me.

52:58Jawad MirYeah. No, it's, it's, it's so true, and I've truly felt after I finished watching the film that I would love to see this movie as a four-part series. So it's more spaced out, it's more explained better, the characters are way more developed. 'Cause there's a lot of cha… Like Emily Blunt's character wasn't really there that much. I mean, it was just, I felt that she should've been... She was there, but it just wasn't developed much. But anyways, I mean, just a thought process anyways.

53:26Don BurgessRight.

53:26Jawad MirIt's nothing... Christopher Nolan's not gonna go back and recut the film because I think of it differently, so.

53:31Don BurgessYeah, I know. No, listen, he's, he's making movies, about very serious topics and they're grand epics.

53:39Jawad MirYeah.

53:39Don BurgessAnd people are showing up to see them and, you know…

53:42Jawad Mir100%

53:42Don Burgess... I applaud him, I applaud him for that, you know, because cinema is, you know, something I love. And, to, you know, not be able to go to the movie theaters has been, you know, it's been tough. And the collective experience of watching something on the screen with an audience is still the best. It's so much better than watching a film anywhere else.

54:07Jawad MirYou know, you're, you're so right. I actually felt that three times this year watching Oppenheimer, Mission Impossible, and Barbie. It's been a long time that I act… Because of COVID, and even before COVID I was really busy.

54:20Don BurgessRight.

54:20Jawad MirI rarely used to go to movie theaters and, but yeah, it's great to be back in movie theaters for sure.

54:26Don BurgessAbsolutely. Yeah.

54:29Jawad MirGreat. Thank you so much, Don, for your time. I appreciate it. I'm sure we'll talk again sometime in the new year and, you know, wish you all the best on the production and other things, and take care.

54:41Don BurgessAll right. Enjoyed speaking with you again. Take care. Bye-bye.

54:44Jawad MirLikewise. Pleasure.

54:45Don BurgessAll right.

54:46Jawad MirBye. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.