'How to Train Your Dragon', Executive Producer, Tim Johnson

0:00Tim JohnsonFor something like, something as powerful a t… a totem as dragons, to, tell a story that's effectively kind of re-owning it is pretty great. The only thing I can think of is what, J.K. Rowling did with w… witches and magic. By creating Harry Potter, she didn't so much, you know, invent a new set of witches and warlocks, she just said, "All that stuff you knew, they fly broomsticks. Did you know that they actually have a sport based on it? They learn spells. Did you know there was a whole, a school where they go away to live and learn?" And so, what she did for witches, I think we did for dragons. We sort of re-instituted a new mythology around them.

0:53Jawad MirWhen How to Train Your Dragon came out in 2010, I was probably not in the world of film that much, and even animation and DreamWorks. I wasn't really watching movies. My son was just born, I, my business was launching, I was really busy. And I saw it the first time, probably 2014, 2015, when they were, like, five and three. And I remember, I'm like, "What is this thing called How to Train Your Dragon? Like, what kind of title is…" But then when I saw it, I understood the craze behind it. So you and I are on the same page. Probably not into it, as I was growing up, but I saw it from my kid, through my kid's eyes and, still loved the film, so no worries.

1:39Tim JohnsonI mean, m… part of the journey of that for me is I was involved very early on, and we went through several sets of directors. And, I was never a director on it, and very much didn't feel like I, you know, would put my hand in that ring. But I was happy to be an executive producer and involved with the, a very, three separate attempts to wrestle the story into shape. And, including, you know, two different passes with two different sets of directors trying to actually be true and faithful to the book before working with Chris and Dean and realizing, having jousted that windmill twice, that you really needed to make some pretty severe changes to the book in order for it to kind of leap onto the screen. So that was sort of my role, sort of supportive to a couple of different directing teams, and just really at that, you know, b… bare bones wrestling, how do you make this succeed as a feature film story?

2:45Jawad MirRight. So what was... I mean, I briefly read that how, it's close to the book, but it's not, like, it's inspired from the book and there are some things that were changed. Besides the book, because I haven't read the book so I can't speak much, and you just said that there were a lot of different ways you guys were gonna tackle that.

3:04Tim JohnsonYeah.

3:05Jawad MirWhat were those ways that didn't get executed, that didn't come, see the light of day?

3:10Tim JohnsonWell, the book is surprisingly different than the movie. I would say that, you know, the whimsical tone, the sort of, Viking-dragon world, is similar, but in, you know, in the book, Vikings and dragging, dragons have worked together for generations. They aren't enemies at all. And they're bonded with a dragon, you know, very early on, and then they train that dragon, like a, like a person would train their, you know, war horse or, a dog or something. And, also most significantly in the book, Toothless is literally a little, tiny, toothless wimp of a dragon. And so Hiccup, the skinny son of the chief, gets the worst dragon. And dragons can talk, so they're, they s… you know, speak English together with each other. And so there's all sorts of differences in the book.

4:11Tim JohnsonAnd every time we would wrestle with that, it was, the stakes felt small on a big screen, and the, and the humor that was so whimsical in the book felt kind of s… awkward, at trying to adapt it to the audio/visual of a film experience. So it w… it was really a couple of s… attempts to tweak the book slightly. And it was only when Chris and Dean came, watched all of the versions where we'd tried to wrestle the book, and they just said, "You know, let's just kick this thing, a little harder than we've ever kicked it. And the first thing we need to do is tell more of an origin story, not Vikings and dragons who have always gotten along, but what's the story of how they started to get along? These, you know, what would seem to be natural enemies, how did we get to a place where their cultures were intertwined?" And that was an enormous gift. And it just rocketed the movie up to a larger story.

5:14Tim JohnsonH… a story suddenly of two warring cultures that became friends. Now we've got a big screen moment. And then of course, the other big change, specifically making Toothless the coolest dragon, not the wimpest, wimpiest, is, you know, it was sort of a no-brainer once we'd brainstormed it into being. But prior to that, we were trying to be faithful to a book and its subtleties that just didn't translate.

5:39Jawad MirYeah, I think that was a cool, choice to make the dragon look cool, I mean, obviously for the film, but also in merchandise. Like, you know, a lot of kids, they wanted to have their own dragon. I remember my son, like, you know, he would see it in a Walmart or something, and he would point to it. And that makes a big difference. And obviously the contrasting personality, the Hiccup and, Toothless…

6:04Tim JohnsonYeah

6:04Jawad Mir... And just the way the chemistry plays. And… I don't know who voiced Hiccup, but that voice, I just saw the film this morning after a long time, and that voice, when he's narrating in the beginning, it's like everybody can relate to the sound, the sound of uncertainty…

6:20Tim JohnsonJay Baruchel always sounds like he's going through puberty

6:23Jawad Mir... Exactly, right? So it just, it just taps into that connection with the audience because everybody thinks that they look weird or they sound weird. And yeah, it's a beautiful w… made film. And Chris and Dean, who, Chris just made Wild Robot, which I'm sure…

6:39Tim JohnsonYeah

6:39Jawad Mir... You've seen. To me, it's one of the best animated movies ever made. You know, I absolutely loved it. And Dean is working on the live action version of How to Train Your Dragon.

6:49Tim JohnsonHe is, and has been for quite a while. Yeah.

6:52Jawad MirYeah.

6:52Tim JohnsonSo it's, it's,.. And those guys are a phenomenal partnership. The whimsy and character comes from Chris, and great story structure and heart comes, from Dean. And of course they overlap. It's not, just one and just the other. But they do have a, their own sort of skillsets that complement one another in a way that was really powerful to witness. And that film had to get going really quickly. It was a sort of, it either is gonna get axed and not made because of its struggles, or these new ideas would actually propel it into, you know, what it actually, what it ended up becoming, a real success.

7:30Jawad MirRight. So this was your first film as an EP, correct?

7:35Tim JohnsonIt was, although it's funny, the role, I'd played on several films where I, you know, was sort of a friend of the film and was at all the screenings and in the story brainstorms. But, I think the studio gave me this title, which I wasn't expecting. I wasn't called an executive producer while I was working on the film. If I recall, it was actually just awarded to me afterwards when they assessed how much I had participated in the film. And that's not untypical for the way Dreamworks or I think some of the other animation studios might work. There's, executive producer's a very fluid title. It can, it can mean that you're very minimally involved and you may be the one that brought the material to the studio. You may be, in the live action world especially, like a financier and somebody who added a significant…

8:24Jawad MirSure

8:24Tim Johnson... You know, support to the film. I… in my case and in a lot of cases in animation, the EP title is awarded to somebody who is actually a support to the directors on the storytelling front.

8:40Jawad MirRight. So what were your role, like what were your day, if there were any day-to-day duties, or what were, what were your tasks, or how were you sort of working with Chris and Dean, managing the project essentially?

8:55Tim JohnsonWell, you know, the, especially early on when they joined, because I'd been there for previous administrations, I s… I was helpful to them in pointing out like, "Here's what we've tried, and here's what we discovered." And so, you know, coming onto a film that already had a couple years of history, I was a, I think I was a su… successful guide to, you know, "H… here's all the experiments we tried, and here's what we can show you of them so that you can stand on the benefit of this, you know, past knowledge." And sometimes they would revive something that we'd tried and thought had failed, but they'd see a spark in it. And other times it was just really good for them to know, "Okay, we see how those experiments failed. We won't waste our time, you know, jousting that windmill, and we'll move on to other ideas." and then throughout it was just really, especially in the beginning, a lot of story meetings as we hammered out, well, what is the relationship between this weakest of Vikings and strongest of dragons? Being with them in all the story pitches and part of the conversation with that.

10:00Tim JohnsonAnd so by all means it was their film and they were very much the directors of it. But as a sort of a senior filmmaker myself, I could just be kind of a helpful voice in the room to brainstorm up what the next steps were. And then as things really got going, I would really just show up at story pitches and screenings to give sort of key advice on, you know, how, given how quickly we had to move on the picture and how much production had to happen in a short amount of time, it was sort of all hands on deck for that one.

10:31Jawad MirSo what was the reason for the production to happen in a short amount of time? Was it investors? Was it…

10:36Tim JohnsonNo, it was really... Well, it's really time is money, and the cost of money starts to add up. And Jeffrey, you know, loved the idea of the film, but was, as all of us, were frustrated with how much it struggled to find its storytelling confidence and feet. So at a certain point it's like, "Here's our release date. If we can't make that, it's not worth making the film, 'cause it'll just cost more than we can ever make back."

11:01Tim Johnson"So we're gonna keep the release date, and we will spend money to make it, but we're not budging on the release date, guys. So work fast, work smart."

11:11Jawad MirThat's amazing. And I mean, look at, I was looking at the Rotten Tomatoes rating this morning, 99%.

11:16Tim JohnsonOh, that's cool. There's always somebody, right? That cracks me up, like…

11:19Jawad MirYeah, it's a…

11:20Tim Johnson... One guy.

11:21Jawad MirYeah. But still, I mean, it's pretty...

11:23Tim JohnsonYeah, we'll take…

11:24Jawad MirIt, anything above 90 is awesome, but 99 is, incredible. I mean, it must've, it tapped into the audience in a certain way, for sure.

11:35Tim JohnsonYou know, it does something really interesting, which is, every culture on earth has some version of a dragon. You know, most significantly, China has a rich love of different dragon lore, and E… Europe and England in particular has, you know, a, are, another set of rich lore of dragons going all the way up into the Tolkien era, the 20th century. And so what we realized, as things started to really click is we were… We were creating a new mythology that stood on the shoulders of both these kind of proud folklore traditions of Asia and Europe. And in some ways now, you know, especially for a new generation of s… o… of kids, How to Train Your Dragon is their version of dragons. They don't think of, you know, St.

12:35Tim JohnsonGeorge. They don't think of, an Asian serpent. They think of How to Train Your Dragon. So there w… there came, at a certain point, a sort of realization. It's like, wow, this is a really, powerful thing to sort of own, another version of the entire dragon mythos.

12:56Jawad MirThat's actually quite interesting that you put it. It's kind of like how the kids are born into the smartphone era. They only know about the world that exists…

13:05Tim JohnsonYeah

13:05Jawad Mir... Now and not before, right then?

13:07Tim JohnsonYeah, and for something like, something as powerful a t… a totem as dragons to, tell a story that's effectively kind of re-owning it is pretty great. The only thing I can think of is what, J.K. Rowling did with w… witches and magic. By creating Harry Potter, she didn't so much, you know, invent a new set of witches and warlocks. She just said, "All that stuff you knew, they fly broomsticks. Did you know that they actually have a sport based on it? They…

13:39Jawad MirYeah

13:39Tim Johnson... They learn spells. Did you know there was a whole, a school where they go away to live and learn?" And so, what she did for witches, I think we did for dragons. We sort of reinstituted a new mythology around them.

13:54Jawad MirYeah. No, I completely agree. W… we're, so Over the Hedge came out in 2007, I think, right? My memory…

14:01Tim JohnsonSix, yeah

14:02Jawad Mir... Is serving me right.

14:03Tim JohnsonYeah.

14:03Jawad MirSix. And then this came out in 2010. So while you were EP-ing or helping out or whatever you wanna call it, were you developing anything of your own at the time or working on some other project simultaneously?

14:16Tim JohnsonI was. I had two other films I was developing, neither of which ended up getting made. And I…

14:22Jawad MirDo talk about them if you want.

14:24Tim JohnsonI don't know if I can because they're still… ... They're still sort of in that could be made one day.

14:30Jawad MirGot it.

14:30Tim JohnsonI can talk about one of them, which was, a project called Nano, and it was based on two very different things, one of which is my love of the beauty and whimsy and aesthetics of electron microscopy. So here I am with all my telescopes, and a fan of astronomy. I'm also a fan of the incredible micros… microscopic world. And so I loved the idea of setting a story in that world, and I combined that story with one of my favorite books at the time, which I highly recommend, called Galileo's Daughter, and it's a, it's a nonfiction book that actually has all of the letters that Galileo's daughter wrote to him when he was imprisoned, coming back to astronomy for his heliocentric theories of the Earth, you know, orbiting the Sun. And so here was this book about this passionate person who, whose daughter continued to believe in him as he was imprisoned for his scientific beliefs.

15:36Tim JohnsonAnd so I wrote a story about this microscopic world and a little scientist who believed there were EBTs, extra big terrestrials, that actually explained things like their weather. When there was a gust of wind or an earthquake, it's 'cause one of these extra big terrestrials walked by. And so I worked on that and developed the, set of characters, great character design by Takao Noguchi and some of the other designers. And that project, we spent money on it. We got a script going. So I was working on that, which was k… which was kinda code-named Nano, at the same time I was developing, and another project w…... I was also, I think, at that point, starting to work on what developed into a big set of, projects, some of the live-action efforts of DreamWorks. Sorry, not live action. I mean live theatrical. So the Shrek musical, I was peripherally involved in helping build the magic, get that set up. We worked on some Kung Fu Panda stuff at the time. I ended up, executive producing the How to Train Your Dragon live arena show that we did with actually life-size robotic dragons, which was an incredible…

16:45Jawad MirOh, wow.

16:47Tim JohnsonYeah, we toured the world with a, with a set of, you know, a dozen enormous life-size dragons in an arena show where we took over basketball stadiums around the world.

16:58Jawad MirThat's, that's, I did not even know about that. Th… that's insane.

17:02Tim JohnsonThat's worth googling because you will not believe. I mean, these are T-Rex-sized critters. We worked with the Creature Company in Australia, who actually did a dinosaur show with this technology, and then we adapted it to make a l… a live stage production of How to Train Your Dragon, in which Toothless, you know, breathes fire. So

17:25Jawad MirWow. That sounds so cool.

17:27Tim JohnsonIt was very cool, yeah. So I kinda toured the world, spent a lot of time in Australia as executive producer of the adaptation of the movie to a live theatrical show.

17:38Jawad MirSo they stopped doing that for now, or am I getting…

17:41Tim JohnsonWell, we did it. We toured for, like, three years, and it was pretty, you know, it was a pretty successful show. We sold out arenas everywhere we went. And then we retired the show because we'd been around the world twice with it, with the goal of putting it back again, like, after a break. But it would've been so expensive to remount and retool all of the robotics that I don't think we e… we never kinda got it back up on its feet again.

18:08Jawad MirWell, it might happen after the live-action release if there's demand.

18:11Tim JohnsonIt might, and they're all sitting in a warehouse in Melbourne somewhere, these, you know, beautiful, hand, custom-made, you know, robots.

18:21Jawad MirThat would be amazing to see. I would love to see that. I mean, who doesn't like dragons and dinosaurs, right?

18:28Tim JohnsonA… and then, of course, my relationship with the franchise, furthered when I directed a, 22-minute network television Christmas special.

18:36Jawad MirRight.

18:37Tim JohnsonAnd that was really a pleasure, having been, you know, at the side of the, show throughout its iterations and its sequels, to step into the captain's seat on furthering and continuing some of the storytelling was really fun. And I knew some of the stars of the show, Jay Baruchel, and whatnot. And so it was fun to, you know, to work with them in the studio and to create a really lovely, holiday special that I'm really proud of.

19:05Jawad MirThat came out in 2015, '16?

19:08Tim JohnsonIt was actually my last... Gosh, when did it come out? It was my last big production at DreamWorks. I left in 2019, so I think it came out in 2018, but I'd have to, I'd have to look at the…

19:18Jawad MirOh, that's fine. No, I was just, I was just curious.

19:21Tim JohnsonYeah.

19:21Jawad MirBut, so, you know, there's all this world created by Chris and Dean, on How to Train Your Dragon. Yes, you were part of the feature, and I think they made two sequels?

19:32Tim JohnsonTwo sequels, yeah.

19:32Jawad MirAnd then they made a bunch of shorts, including the one that you did. What was it like... I'm glad you brought that up, because what was it like working on it as a director, like a 22-minute special or however long time, minutes it was, you know, knowing the world but not being heavily involved with it as, it, being heavily involved with it as opposed to being EP on it with the feature? Like, the experience of in that world with those characters.

20:02Tim JohnsonIt was a blast, I have to say. I think we may have talked about this, 'cause I also did a Kung Fu Panda holiday special, and there's something moving from feature films to the rather large budgeted holiday specials we did, where we really were trying to capture a lot of the tone and look of the features. And by no means did we have a feature film budget even proportion to the 22 minutes, but by holiday special standards, these were large budgeted shows, for sure. And so I never felt creatively, you know, in a box doing these things. The only box was 22 minutes, 'cause the How to Train Your Dragon special, the first cut was, I think, 35 minutes. I mean, 12 minutes or more longer than it could be. And cutting was painful, because it w… it played great at 35 minutes. So getting it down to 22 was, like, really,.. That was the only painful part of it. But the storytelling was fun, and trying to make sure that we were adding to the narrative of the entire journey, being complementary to and being something fans would like to see, in addition to just being a robust holiday special, being something that would be welcomed in the pantheon of the greater world building of the series.

21:18Tim JohnsonThat was actually one of the challenges, but biggest payoffs and most fun of working on the, holiday special.

21:25Jawad MirThat's so cool. I remember, I think the very first non-Disney holiday special, and I could be wrong, was when Shrek the Halls came out ... Whatever, 2004, 2005. Up until that whole world was dominated by Disney, right? Mickey Mouse Special…

21:42Tim JohnsonYeah.

21:42Jawad Mir... Holiday Special, and, you know, D… Donald Duck Holiday Special. And it's so good to see that, you know, whether you celebrate Christmas or not, it's just because everybody's sort of at home with their families…

21:54Tim JohnsonYeah

21:54Jawad Mir... And, you know, that fireplace, and you're just, there's snowing outside, depending on where you are. It really strikes chords with people's psyche as opposed to like a regular film would.

22:07Tim JohnsonIt's a, it's another privilege in my, gratitude for the DreamWorks experience I had. Making a feature film and having the big release and getting out there to family audiences is amazing, and I would say equally amazing is the opportunity to do a holiday special for a major network. And so even though, of course, television audiences for major networks are shrinking, you're still reaching millions of people who are going to, as a family, an all-ages group, sit down to watch and share a holiday special, which promises, if not a, you know, religious experience about Christmas, a tone and a theme that has to have, you know, real value and richness to it. So the, so both the obligation, burden, but joy of working on a holiday special is really equivalent to the feature films in that you're, you're making culture for families to enjoy at a special time together.

23:06Jawad Mir100%. Are you... I… I'm assuming you're not, but, I just have to ask. The live-action version of How to Train Your Dragon, which is well into production for a while, have you been involved in it in any capacity? You don't have to talk about it if so.

23:21Tim JohnsonI haven't. No. Except for cheering Dean on and hearing about the ups and downs of a live-action journey, no, I haven't been involved. So I know a little bit, and have, seen and heard from Dean a little bit about, you know, some of the things they're doing there. But no. When I left DreamWorks, I left fairly cleanly, and even though I still, have great friendships and good professional relationships and continue to pitch there, I'm, I'm definitely not involved anymore on the, making of the secret sauce there, so.

23:52Jawad MirAwesome, man. I'm in LA next week

23:54Tim JohnsonOh

23:54Jawad Mir... Maybe for a day or two. If you are around, I would love to grab a lunch, coffee, whatever.

23:58Tim JohnsonYeah, just tell me, yeah, tell me when you're gonna be here. I have a, I have spotty things throughout the week, but, I'm sure if you're here for at least a couple days, we can figure something out.

24:07Jawad MirYeah, for sure. It'd probably be Wednesday and Thursday, but I'll keep you posted.

24:11Tim JohnsonCool. Wednesday night I'm at the opera, but other than that, I think I'm good to go, so.

24:16Jawad MirYeah.

24:16Tim JohnsonMadam Butterfly. Gotta see it again.

24:19Jawad MirSounds good. Thank you so much as usual, Tim. Pleasure talking to you.

24:22Tim JohnsonAll right. We'll see you next week.

24:23Jawad MirYeah, for sure. Take care.

24:25Tim JohnsonBye.