'Shark Tale', Editor, Mark Solomon

0:00Mark SolomonAnother thing that w… that we spent a lot of time with on that movie was the music, because, y… we had suddenly a new freedom to do, you know, rhythm and blues, like, to do, like, contemporary kind of music. And one of the directors, Bibo Bergeron, loved that stuff, and showed me a, w… played for me a lots of the music that he loved, and it was so much fun to listen to and discover Bootsy Collins, this bass player who played with, you know, Funkadelic, and to really go for a different sound and h… and make, you know, the Angelina Jolie character, like, a real, a real, like, Jessica Rabbit kind of babe.

0:45Jawad MirHey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast. In today's episode, I have a guest that I've already featured on this podcast, Mark Solomon. He has worked on films like Chicken Run, which episode you can watch in the description, which was done a few weeks ago. He's also edited Space Jam, the original one with Michael Jordan, as well as Tim Burton's Frankie Vigne. And today's episode features Shark Tale, DreamWorks Animation film that came out in 2004. Can't believe it's almost been 20 years, and we dived really into this amazing film. We spoke about the cast. We spoke about little anecdotes here and there, the whole arc of the story, and the references to the popular culture. Thank you so much for watching. I hope you enjoy this episode. How have you been?

1:33Mark SolomonVery well.

1:35Jawad MirAll set?

1:35Mark SolomonTell me, what's In Search of My Sister?

1:38Jawad MirIn Search of My Sister is one of the feature films that I've directed.

1:43Mark SolomonAh.

1:43Jawad MirIt's a feature narrative documentary about an American Uyghur activist. I'm not sure if you've heard of Uyghur Muslims in northern western part of China. They're…

1:57Mark SolomonOh, yeah

1:57Jawad Mir... Right. And so she's a Uyghur activist living in DC, and because of her activism in United States, her s… older sister, who is a medical doctor, was taken away

2:10Mark SolomonOh

2:10Jawad Mir... By CCP among 1.8 to 3 million Uyghur Muslims. So the film is a journey of her, you know, going around 12, 13 countries, trying to create awareness of the issue, while also finding clues to her sister whereabouts.

2:24Jawad MirSo that's what that's about. It's on Amazon Prime and a few other platforms. But thanks for asking.

2:29Mark SolomonI'll look for it. I'll look for it.

2:31Jawad MirYeah.

2:32Mark SolomonDifferent from Shark Tale…

2:33Jawad MirI think…

2:33Mark Solomon... And the kind of stuff that I did.

2:35Jawad MirWell, that's the kind of stuff that I've always wanted to do, but somehow I landed into this world of socio-political... I mean, everything that I've done so far, even the film Citizen Amoria that you see the poster.

2:46Mark Solomonhuh.

2:47Jawad MirThat's also a human rights, but with a protagonist, or which you'll probably enjoy more because it's about an Afghan filmmaker who, gets on Taliban's hit list, and he fled to Afghanistan without saying goodbye to his pregnant wife and his kids.

3:02Mark SolomonWow.

3:03Jawad MirAnd he ends up in Europe's worst refugee detention center. So he and I, mostly him, i… you know, covertly filmed there, and it's his journey of trying to get him, get out of there while living with the guilt of leaving his family, so.

3:15Mark SolomonThat's really interesting, because I w… i… and the opposite, I mean, I thought I was gonna wind up in documentaries. I mean, I produced…

3:21Jawad MirYeah

3:22Mark Solomon... A documentary to go to Nepal. I went with this group of doctors, and I filmed them doing eye surgery, like a, like cataract surgery, in a really…

3:30Jawad MirRight

3:30Mark Solomon... Remote location where people never see a doctor. And I f… did, like, one-man band, you know? Like, all, I was the whole crew and produced and wrote and directed. And I thought, "Yeah, this is what I should be doing. This is what's gonna happen with my life. I'm gonna be making these kind of documentaries for PBS." And then the next thing I got was Space Jam. And I thought this…

3:50Jawad MirIsn't that crazy? Yeah.

3:51Mark SolomonIt i…

3:54Jawad MirIt is so crazy…

3:55Mark SolomonIt is

3:55Jawad Mir... How those things work. I mean, it's like you always end up where you wanna go, but the journey that you think you're gonna go through is a…

4:03Mark SolomonYeah

4:04Jawad Mir... Completely different journey. But, what was that film called, the one in Nepal?

4:09Mark SolomonHimalayan Healthcare, which was like a…

4:11Jawad MirIs it online?

4:12Mark Solomon... Insert film for the organization. It's on YouTube. It's, like, 20 minutes long.

4:17Jawad MirHimalayan Healthcare. I'll take a look for it. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. I actually got your book.

4:26Mark SolomonVery good.

4:27Jawad MirThank you so much.

4:27Mark SolomonNice to see that. Thank you.

4:28Jawad MirYeah. Thank you so much. Of course I read it. And just to kind of let people know what the exact title is, Over the Shoulder: A Freelancer's Guide to Telling Stories and Editing Films. A… I mean, there was a lot of stuff in there that I have sort of gone through making films, but it's always good to refresher to know, because sometimes you…

4:49Jawad Mir... Dive so much into things that you overlook things. But it's a great book for anyone who's not only starting out, but in the middle of their career, or even if they're, you know, at the top of their career, it's good to read it again because it just refreshes your memory, as sometimes you're so involved in, you know, in a project that you lose sight of everything other than just…

5:09Jawad Mir... That particular project. So great book. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

5:13Mark SolomonThat's very kind of you.

5:14Jawad MirVery simple. Very simple, straightforward, easy to understand, and fun to read.

5:19Mark SolomonGood. Thank you. That was the intention. It was to help people in the position when I was in starting out, where I sort of, you know, could have used some more of a guide about how to get my, find my way into these, the kind of projects and the kind of work that I wanted to do. So that was, I was writing it to my younger self and to the students that I've, I've met along the way who are in a, in a similar position.

5:43Jawad MirRight. Yeah, no, and when did you publish this? Just recently, right, I'm assuming?

5:47Mark SolomonFebruary.

5:48Jawad MirFebruary.

5:48Mark SolomonSo th… or beginning of this year.

5:51Jawad MirAnd what have you done any book tours or anything, with the book?

5:55Mark SolomonYeah, I've done, I've done some author events, first wh… in the places where I wrote the book, in Montreal. I did a couple events there early on, and in around where I'm living now in outside of Boston. I've done like events at a library and at a cafe and doing podcasts like this and talking to people online.

6:16Jawad MirThat's great.

6:16Mark SolomonGonna be doing another one in March in New York City at the Drama Book Shop on March 13th.

6:22Jawad MirOkay.

6:22Mark SolomonSo that I'm looking forward to because that's sort of a specialist bookstore for film and theater. Which is really my background, and so I would, I would like to talk to the people who frequent and, go to that theater. So it's in the heart of the theater district in Manhattan.

6:39Jawad MirThat's awesome. That's really good. And but how about schools and university? Do they, do they invite you over? Because, I mean, that's where a lot of…

6:45Mark SolomonNo, they should.

6:47Jawad MirYeah.

6:48Mark SolomonIt hasn't happened yet.

6:49Jawad MirThey should.

6:49Mark SolomonHasn't happened yet. I've taught at a couple schools around here, but I haven't gone in to talk specifically about the book. I think that's a good idea.

6:58Jawad MirYeah.

6:58Mark SolomonThat should be a good…

6:58Jawad MirYeah, I might maybe reaching out. Sometimes reaching out is an only option if they're not reaching out to you. But that does help.

7:05Mark SolomonAbsolutely. Yeah.

7:06Jawad MirYeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you again for writing, and I just finished watching Shark Tale.

7:12Mark Solomonhuh.

7:13Jawad MirWhich was a very, you know, I've seen it a few times, but it just, I had forgotten so many jokes and quirks and all those things… ... In there, and what a great, you know, originally it was supposed to be called, I think, Shark Slayer because you keep hearing…

7:29Mark SolomonThat's right

7:29Jawad Mir... Right? And you keep hearing shark slayer throughout the film. Great film, but one of the things that really got me was, a… again, I knew this, but when you see it on screen when the opening credits come up and you…

7:41Jawad Mir... See the names, you know, Will Smith, Robert De Niro, Jack Black, Renée Zellweger, Robert De…

7:49Mark SolomonAngelina Jolie

7:50Jawad Mir... Angelina Jolie, Martin Scorsese, and ... Yeah, I mean, what a, what a cast and just all the…

7:57Mark SolomonYeah

7:57Jawad Mir... Popular culture humor in there. And it lives up. Animation probably doesn't live up. I mean, I think animation obviously back then was different. Now you can see like Netflix TV shows in a similar animation style. Obviously technology has evolved.

8:13Jawad MirBut story-wise, it was really well done, and the characters are really good. And

8:17Mark SolomonOh, thank you

8:17Jawad Mir... Yeah. Tell me how…

8:18Mark SolomonIt was fun to do.

8:20Jawad MirYeah. Tell me how you, I mean, we kinda talked about it a little bit with Chicken Run and everything, but just the evolution of your involvement in, i… in Shark Tale.

8:28Mark SolomonWell, I wasn't, because I was, had done a couple shows at DreamWorks, I was sort of in on the radar of, th… those shows there. And I think I had a couple, so I was, I was came in as like a second editor, well, preparing for a screening like, you know, in work in progress screenings. And so I was there early on at the very beginning, and then I came in later as well, I think af… before and after Chicken Run when I was away in England…

8:58Mark Solomon... To help out for particular screenings. And it was, it was a, it was a different project from the other ones that were being done there. Usually in animated movies, especially that sort of DreamWorks, Disney style, there's a desire to be, you know, an evergreen, that you don't tie it to any one particular time or place so that it does, so it ages better because…

9:22Jawad MirYeah

9:22Mark Solomon... Figure if the audience is 10-year-olds or primarily like young audience, you want to appeal to the young audience, you know, in the future as well. So you don't go in for, you know, pop culture references that tie it to a time. But Far… Shark Tale was one where they said, "Let's try it. Let's, let's, this one, let's make it, you know, about today," and to use music that's sort of, in a different style from most animated movies. And that was really fun to explore too because it's music I love, that sort of like R&B, you know, more urban kind of sound, but you don't really hear much in animation. And to explore what music to use and what goes with, what particular scenes and to try to think about how music and story go together in a different way was liberating. It was a lot of fun.

10:17Jawad MirYeah. You said you were working on a couple of TV shows. Were they DreamWorks TV shows?

10:22Mark SolomonOther movie, but I call them shows, but they were movies. I worked on Spirit…

10:26Jawad MirOh, okay

10:26Mark Solomon... The one about horses.

10:28Jawad MirYes, of course. One of my favorite films.

10:30Mark SolomonYeah, that was, that was a v… you know, also a very different experience to Shark Tale. I mean, they were, they were looking for a range, and it was fun to explore those kind of different kind of projects. So Spirit and Shrek and Chicken Run and Shark Tale, I mean, they were, those were the few that I was doing at DreamWorks when they were just building the studio, which was a very exciting time. People were really looking to the future of bu… of building something new, and it was exci… exciting to try things and…

11:01Jawad MirYeah

11:01Mark Solomon... You know, to find, to find what works and what doesn't.

11:05Jawad MirYeah, you know, the when you said TV shows and then you talked about what works and what doesn't, not many people even at DreamWorks know about this, and I'd be happy to know if you know. There was a show that came out in the late '90s. I mean, there was, Father of the Pride, which was like a big thing on ABC, I think, about the…

11:26Jawad Mir... You know, the two brothers.

11:27Mark SolomonIt was…

11:28Jawad MirThe work, the one, the one that worked with the lions. It's like based on them. What's their name in Vegas?

11:34Mark SolomonSiegfried and Roy.

11:34Jawad MirYeah, Siegfried and Roy. Yeah. There was a show, that one, and there was Toonsylvania. But the one that nobody, I have talked to so many people at DreamWorks, only one person of remember that, In… Invasion America. Have you heard of it?

11:48Mark SolomonNo. Tell me. What about it?

11:51Jawad MirSo it's literally anime style, about…

11:55Mark SolomonOh

11:55Jawad Mir... Takes place in LA and how the a… aliens have come down to Earth to invade America. And it's, it is st… and I think it lasted, like, one season. And I remember I was able to get, maybe I don't know if I should say this on a podcast. I was able to get, like, a bootleg version DVD from eBay because they were going on sale.

12:18Mark SolomonOh.

12:18Jawad Mir'Cause I could, I couldn't watch them. I, they were not showing them in Canada. So I still have it. I still have the DVDs, and it's such a great show that it got canceled after the first season.

12:28Mark SolomonWho knows why? I mean, you work on things, and y… you always, you know, I give 'em a, you give your best effort, and you never know what's going to happen. You figure that's g… not in your hands. And sometimes things that you never expect to work blow up and become, you know, a brilliant success like Shrek. I mean, the early days when I was working on Shrek, you'd, you wouldn't think it was any different from the other kind of projects that they had. It seemed like we were struggling with the story, trying to find the way, you know, and it, and it had lots of problems. And then it blossomed into this, you know, big, huge success. And then some projects where you have lots of faith in…

13:05Jawad MirYeah

13:05Mark Solomon... And you think, "Oh, this is gonna work. This is gonna be great. People are gonna love this," you know.

13:11Jawad MirYeah. No, I…

13:11Mark SolomonBrazenly sold as Nobody Goes

13:13Jawad Mir... I experience that all the time. So I completely understand. It's like, you know, when you have, it, hopes for one, it doesn't go that way, and vice versa. But when, going back to Shark Tale in your book, Over the Shoulder, in terms of composing the story and structuring the story, which you talk about in this book, and sort of tying that in, into Shark Tale, tell me…

13:38Jawad Mir... As an editor what your process o… of that was.

13:43Mark SolomonWell, we were, the, when I was there, we were looking for how to begin, how to get into the world of the reef. And, you know, the beginnings are tricky. It's, the v… the most important thing in a movie is the end. The next most important is the beginning, and then the rest is in the middle, like it's, so that you take people along for the ride. And trying to figure out how to get into the reef, this, you know, very unusual world where it's sort of like Times Square…

14:15Mark Solomon... In an urban setting where there's media, where some of it gets explained and some of it doesn't. And there were, we had, like, p… so we were trying stuff with, like, police car, following a police car and doing, using the police radio as a squawk box or a weather re… I think there, that's in there some, still the weather report from a helicopter.

14:38Jawad MirYep.

14:40Mark SolomonAnd just putting all these elements in and seeing w… you know, what would draw people in a way that's unusual and engaging. And then the other th… part of the story that w… was, we spent a lot of time on was the Oscar's lie. He goes, "Did you kill that shark?" Yeah. Yeah, I killed that shark. And, like, how to set that up so that it felt like the way lies spread, that it starts as a s… a simple, innocent thing, and you don't think it's gonna matter to anybody, but then it suddenly has these ripple effects and this wave that rolls out. And to create that feeling, 'cause that was a big t… that's a big turning point in the story. And then the…

15:25Jawad MirYeah

15:25Mark Solomon... And then the other s… thing that we spent a lot of time on was with L… Lenny, the sh… the vegetarian shark, which, you know, the subtext of which is pretty much that he's gay. And that's, and to do that in a way that is, engaging and not offensive and not, you know, being too obvious or too hidden, like, how do you t… talk to a big, you know, global family audience about an issue like that in a way that people can enjoy? And that was, we sp… you know, we spent a lot of time, you know, massaging those scenes and trying different things, and that was the exciting part for me, was to sort of see these, like, hinges in the story and, like, w… how y… you know, that you... There's some times when you can sort of skip over stuff and go quickly, and some where you really need to have, like, a moment-by-moment follow the thought process of what the characters are going through that gets them from where they were in the beginning to a decision point, and then it turn, the whole story turns on that.

16:35Jawad MirYeah.

16:35Mark SolomonAnd that was, yeah, a lot of fun.

16:37Jawad MirAnd I thought, I mean, obviously at the time when it came out, if you, if the film had been about Lenny played by Jack Black, it probably would've been received, you know, in a way that it was, because at the time things were different.

16:54Jawad MirBut I think it to, for me, it was Lenny and Jack Black's movie because the whole, you know, Will Smith is great and everything in the film, and yes, he's a sup… you know, global superstar at the time. But the story and the arc of Lenny and trying to become, like, a dolphin from a shark…

17:12Mark SolomonYeah, it's more personal

17:13Jawad Mir... I thought it was, it was very, it was very fu… it was very personal. It was very funny. It was done very, like you said, in a way that it just, the kids probably never got. Like, even some of the jokes that I s… I heard today, not that I was a kid at the time, but it went over my head.

17:30Mark SolomonOh.

17:30Jawad MirAnd I picked, I picked it up now. And it's funny how, same thing with Shrek. It's just some things don't, you don't understand until, you know, a certain stage of your life. You don't get the depth of it.

17:39Jawad MirWhich is what I like about the humor in Shark Tale and Shrek.

17:43Mark SolomonYeah, there's something, well, you want to reward close attention and give people a re… a reason to see the movie more than once. Where if you have this feeling that there were layers of the story that you didn't catch on the first go, that it makes, it, that it makes you want to go back and see it again, that's a big win. You know, that people are really engaging with it a… and want to understand the details, or, like, seeing things in the background, you know. That was a big thing in… the Aardman stuff like Chicken Run, and Shrek has some of that too, where there's action in the background that's not called attention to, but if you are looking for it and pay close attention, you see, "Oh, that's funny. Look at that. Look at what these characters are doing."

18:26Jawad MirYeah.

18:26Mark SolomonAnd in Shark Tale, you know, all the, all that inventive stuff that's at the car wash, the whale wash, you know, where th… this whole…

18:35Jawad MirYeah

18:35Mark Solomon... World is created of, you know, how the machines work, where it's almost like a, like, I don't know if you remember The Flintstones, where they had dinosaurs and…

18:44Jawad MirYep

18:44Mark Solomon... Creating all these sort of automated machines. So here was an underwater car wash where they have all these stations, and they use sort of the, you know, underwater creatures and things to create this very, inventive and multilayered world.

19:03Jawad MirYeah. No, I… i… that's, again, I mean, as, there was so much popular culture, there were so many, not even popular culture, but also, like, timely references of the things that were going on, and people were able to relate to them.

19:17Jawad MirKids were able to. And educational as well, like Car Wash, right? Like, okay, how does a car wash work? But it's like a whale wash.

19:23Mark SolomonYeah.

19:24Jawad MirAnd so many, so many other elements. You men… you mentioned Chicken Run, and I, it's funny, I d… I just kind of going a sidetrack here. The day we spoke, I think few hours later, the new trailer for Wallace & Gromit film came out.

19:39Mark SolomonOh, yeah?

19:40Jawad MirYeah. So it's actually, it's, Feather McGraw is in it, the penguin. He makes…

19:45Mark SolomonOh, Feathers, ah-ha

19:46Jawad Mir... Yeah, he makes a comeback. So I thought, I think it's released on, in the UK with, like, 100% rotten tomatoes. I think it comes on Netflix on January 3rd. But

19:56Mark SolomonOh, I haven't seen that. I'll look for it.

19:58Jawad MirYeah, it's called, Wallace & Gromit, and, oh my God, it's such a simple name and I'm forgetting. Give me, let me a second. It is called Wallace & Gromit & Veng… Vengeance Most Fowl. It's not a simple name. It's a very complicated…

20:21Mark SolomonAh

20:21Jawad Mir... But I thought I should mention that.

20:22Mark SolomonThat's good. That's good family.

20:24Jawad MirYeah. But I thought you should, I mean, I should mention it because it, I mean, we were talking about the penguin, the train sequence… ... But I just thought I'd bring it up. And, you know, y… you worked in this book, you mentioned you worked with, you know, such caliber people like Mel Gibson, you know, in Chicken Run, and Tim Burton with Frankie Vinny. And in Shark Tale, you have all this star cast.

20:51Jawad MirAs an editor, what kind of work did you hear or did you see in the, in some of the rushes or some of the audition… s… some of the voi… voi… voice recording is that didn't go into the film that you thought or the crew thought was funny, whether it was by Will Smith or De Niro or Jack Black or anybody else? I know it's been a while. I'm just trying to see if you…

21:14Mark SolomonIt's a, it's an evolving process. I mean, like, there's j… a lot of stuff with comedy is you just have volume, that you just try a lot of different things. I mean, and Jack Black was very inventive and Will Smith went off on some things, and really because he had, he was, I think, nominated for an Oscar for Ali when he played Muhammad Ali, was around the same time.

21:36Jawad MirYep. Yep.

21:36Mark SolomonBut there were a lot of inside jokes about, Oscar Boomaye and, you know, stuff where he was, we were sort of referencing Will Smith, that we, you know, that we tried. And with comedy, a lot of it is like, it gets a laugh at the moment, and then you try to put it in, and you see how it fits in with the rest of the material, and sometimes it rises, and it says, "Oh, that's really funny. We're gonna definitely keep that." And sometimes it goes, it's funny on its own, but it doesn't fit into the bigger scene.

22:08Jawad MirYeah.

22:08Mark SolomonBut it's wonderful to have talented actors where they give you lots of choices, where you have lots of inventive work, you know, especially comic stuff. It's great to see that. And we, you know, the, and all the stuff around the racetrack with, Martin Scorsese and Will Smith, I mean, those were fun scenes to cut that sort of negotiating scene, like, where they're sort of, "Okay, I'll give, let's, we'll, we'll divide it 90/10. No, 85/25." You know? And, you know, all those things we tried it lots of different ways. And…

22:42Jawad MirYeah

22:43Mark Solomon... Great fun. Great fun.

22:46Jawad MirI…

22:46Mark SolomonAnother thing that w… that we spent a lot of time with on that movie was the music because it, we had suddenly a new freedom to do, you know, rhythm and blues, like, to do, like, contemporary kind of music. And one of the directors, Bibo Bergeron, loved that stuff and showed me a, well, played for me a lots of the music that he loved. And it was so much fun to listen to and discover Bootsy Collins, this bass player who played with, you know, Funkadelic, and to really go for a different sound and h… and make, you know, the Angelina Jolie character like a real, a real, like, Jessica Rabbit kind of babe.

23:28Jawad MirYeah.

23:28Mark SolomonIt was really fun.

23:30Jawad MirAnd I felt that. I'm glad you mentioned that. I felt that it was like there's a lot of similarities visually as well as personality-wise between Jessica Rabbit and

23:40Mark Solomonhuh

23:40Jawad Mir... Angelina Jolie's character. But again, hearing, it's, when I remember when the trailer came out, seeing Martin Scorsese in a film…

23:50Mark SolomonAh

23:50Jawad Mir... In a film, and then on top of it, in an animated film, and then as a fish, I mean, that, how, do you know the process? I mean, I'm sure Jeffrey Katzenberg and Spielberg, you know, with connection to Martin Scorsese, but to bring him on board who has never done anything like this, and…

24:07Mark SolomonHe was great, wasn't he? I mean, he was so much fun.

24:09Jawad MirYeah, he was amazing.

24:10Mark SolomonAnd he really enjoyed it, you know? I mean, he got to do, that's the appeal that it's good for filmmakers to remember that if you offer somebody well-known something that they don't usually get to do… That it has a real appeal. I mean, he has family and rela… and young relatives that I'm sure would see Shark Tale that they can't see Goodfellas or some of the other movies that he's made, and that he can reach a new audience and do something new and different that's, you know, fun and lighthearted. And he was a, you know, great sport for pitching in and doing it, you know? I mean, Jeff… and I would say that Jeffrey Katzenberg can be very persuasive.

24:47Jawad MirYeah. But, you know, the thing I mean, a lot of people probably picked up on it but n… not probably the kids at the time or even now, is that you have De Niro and Scorsese. Normally, when they work together in films like Goodfellas, Casino

25:03Mark SolomonYeah

25:04Jawad Mir... I mean, there are so many. It's d… it's Scorsese that is taking charge on De Niro. He's the director. But in this, it's completely turned upside down, where De Niro is calling the shots.

25:16Mark SolomonYeah.

25:16Jawad MirAnd I thought that was pretty fascinating.

25:18Mark SolomonYeah, I think good for, you know, and fun for them.

25:21Jawad MirYeah.

25:21Mark SolomonYou know, that made it fun for them to try something different. And to be open to it, I mean, says a lot about them, you know, that they're not, rigid and strict about who they've… who they have to be and who, how they are presented to the public. I mean, that was wonderful.

25:38Jawad MirYeah.

25:38Mark SolomonAnd tell the deliciousness of the, that they enjoyed what they were doing. And that adds a lot because, like, in an animated movie, the voices is really the only organic element that you have that originally starts with a human voice, 'cause the stuff is not handmade. The picture isn't handmade. The music and the sound all come through sort of, you know, big technology sources. And the voice is this, is the organic thing that you base everything on, and that when the actors are enjoying what they're doing, and the, and the, and that the editing doesn't get in the way. I mean, that's the big thing with editing voice work, is that when there's a really good performance, stay out of the way. Let it j… let it play. And 'cause there's a tendency in editing to y… eliminate all the pauses because the, to make the scene go faster. And sometimes that helped. But when you have a really good actor, the pauses add a lot.

26:39Mark SolomonAnd that their sense of comic timing is, you know, that going with what, the way they do it, you know, can really add a lot. And a lot of the editing is, you know, a, sort of a hands-off approach.

26:55Jawad MirYeah. I mean, comic timing is everything, right? Like ... Even like a microsecond here or there, the audience might not grasp it. And, for a comedian, I mean, I consider Will Smith a comedian because of Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and all that stuff that he's done. Like, they get, it becomes their second nature. They just know exactly when to say something at this time and how long of a pause to give. And…

27:20Mark SolomonYeah

27:20Jawad Mir... Will Smith's character in this film is Will Smith, but with…

27:23Mark SolomonYeah

27:23Jawad Mir... With a l… with a little bit of a, you know, freshness to it.

27:28Mark SolomonYeah. He, I mean, it, lots of confidence, you know? I mean, like, he just would go o… he would go riff, you know, he would just go off and riff on things. And the, you know, so the only real editing to do is how to time it with the people he's talking to. Because usually…

27:44Jawad MirYeah

27:44Mark Solomon... The recordings are done all separately because that, the, it's getting big stars, getting their schedules to align. It's very difficult to get a couple people in the room at the same time. So most of the time they're recorded individually, and they're just, like, hearing the voice of who they're responding to. And so that kind of editing, the ed… editing the voices, you know, when it's... And there's, in Shark Tale, there's a lot of dialogue scenes, and those scenes are led by, like, a radio play, where you sort of build out the dialogue first…

28:15Jawad MirYeah

28:15Mark Solomon... And then add the picture on top. So the rhythm is all in the words, as opposed to, like, an action scene or when you're introducing the car wash or introducing the reef. Then it's, it's led by the picture or the music sometimes. Sometimes the, you know, the, you... I mean, we had a track i… in the beginning of, there was a d… a Jay-Z track, but Living It Up in the City, something like that.

28:38Mark SolomonCan't remember the name of it, but it wasn't, we didn't eventually use it, but the rhythm of the visuals fit the song. So it gave us something to follow. So there's, like, one element leads, and the other elements follow. And sometimes it's picture, and sometimes it's music, and sometimes it's the dialogue.

28:56Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, that's true. And I think I, obviously, the name Shark Slayer perhaps for the kids kinda maybe sounded a little too harsh, and that's probably why it became Shark Tale. Let me know if that's accurate assessment.

29:11Mark SolomonYeah.

29:11Jawad MirAnd if so, when was it that it was decided that we should call it Shark Tale instead of Shark Slayer? Because originally, when it was announced, it was announced as Shark Slayer. I remember that.

29:22Mark SolomonIt was later. I mean, I think may… maybe after they had probably taken it out to an audience, and they tested some, and they tested some titles. And they, and they s… decided that, you know, Shark Tale had a, was, told you enough about the, what the subject was to engage people in a way that wouldn't be so aggressive. Like, Shark Slayer is a little bit aggressive. And, you know, they want everybody to come. They want, you know, you want four q… you want moms and dads and boys and girls and you want everybody to come. You don't have anybody have a reason not to like it.

30:02Jawad MirYeah.

30:02Mark SolomonBecause they, you know, they cost hundreds of millions.

30:06Jawad MirA… and the interesting thing with Shark Tale was, I mean, it's not, around the same time Pixar's, Disney's Finding Nemo came out, which was a, you know, you, the only similarities that they have is they're about the f… the world of fish, and that's about it.

30:22Jawad MirBut they're completely different films, not in terms of story only, but in terms of tone, in terms of approach. When you guys finished the film, I think Shark Tale came out in 2005 2004, and Finding Nemo came out in 2003. So was that, was there a pressure of, you know, a… an audience that has already seen a film that is about the world of fish, and now you're doing this? Yes, it has a big star cast, it's a different film. But was there ever a pressure in terms of getting the audience in, despite the fact they've already had a great appetite with Finding Nemo and it was quite successful?

31:07Mark SolomonYeah. Yeah, there was. And it had happened before between Pixar and DreamWorks with Antz and Bug's Life.

31:14Jawad MirAnd Bug's Life, yep. Yeah.

31:15Mark SolomonAnd a lot of that has to do with the available technology. You know, Toy Story was the first CG movie and it, and it was very simple. So the movement of these toys and, you know, didn't matter that much, it didn't have to be naturalistic. But that was the best of it. So that they chose to do a story about toy that showed off the technology as best as it could be done then. And then Bug's Life was about articulated movement with the characters, where you could create bugs that isn't about humans, but they could make realistic bug surfaces and, you know, that sort of world of the, you know, grass height by the ground. And then the water is a lot, is more complicated.

31:59Mark SolomonWhere to create that sort of floating feeling through scenes and how to make gravity and to do, scatter backgrounds where they would sort of just say, "Make these seaweed and fill this frame." And so a lot of the choice of story was dictated by what's a, what's new and s… impressive that can be done with the technology.

32:26Jawad MirRight.

32:26Mark SolomonAnd so the underwater stuff came out and Pixar went, "Yeah, we can make Little Nemo. We're Finding Nemo." And DreamWorks, yeah, said, "Well, if we're gonna do, if we can use the same, you know, cool new underwater stuff that can be done with the way light refla… refract… refracts, reflects, refracts through the water, what kind of story can we do that's different from what they have? Because we're not gonna go directly against them. So how far different can we make an underwater story from Find, from Finding Nemo?"

32:59Jawad MirAnd it was very different. It was completely…

33:01Mark SolomonYeah

33:01Jawad Mir... The bizarro world, right? Like, it was like upside down… ... Or a… and whatnot. And despite receiving not so great reviews, Shark Tale did really well. It, I think it made over 375 million worldwide, and it was the ninth highest grossing film of 2004.

33:19Jawad MirSo from numbers standpoint, it did really well. Do you remember watching it first time in a com… like, a premiere or, not test screening, but, like, a complete version, but watching it with average moviegoers?

33:35Mark SolomonWell, I remember, yeah, it's, the big advantage that it has is that the color design is really appealing. That, you know, the colors really pop. It's very…

33:44Jawad MirYeah

33:44Mark Solomon... You know, really, appealing. And the music, I mean, like, you could see kids, you know, bopping to the songs. That it was, it was, you know, entertaining on a very visceral level with when the music and the color look, are a… appealing and inviting and invite you to sort of enjoy what you're seeing. This, yeah, the story's sweet and it has, and it has, you know, positive elements and interesting characters and scenes that you remember. But the overall impression of being in a big theater and hearing this music coming through the speakers and seeing this, the, you know, the beautiful colors coming off the screen has an immediate visceral appeal. You could tell that people really enjoyed it.

34:30Jawad MirYeah. And I know we may have talked about this before, and forgive me if we have and just tell me if we have, is that, you know, when you are watching a film that you have worked on… ... Whether as the director, editor, composer, whatever, and when you're watching it the first time with an audience, there's obviously a level of excitement, but I also, I know from experience there's a hell of a lot of nervousness.

35:00Mark SolomonOh, yeah.

35:00Jawad MirAt least for the first couple of times. But after that, you kinda get used to it. So how do, in, just in general, like, not necessarily with Shark Tale, that level, just talk about that. I mean, at the level of excitement and the level of nervousness, and how do you sort of deal with that? And there's sometimes, like, if you know, in your case, like for example, Shark Tale, if there was a sequence that you edited and you found hilarious and nobody laughed and you're like, "Okay, where are we going with this?" Like, that feeling…

35:29Jawad Mir... If you can tell me a story about that in any way, generalized or a particular film.

35:35Mark SolomonWell, the toughest screening is always the first public screening.

35:41Jawad MirYeah.

35:41Mark SolomonBecause nobody knows for sure how people are gonna react. I mean, it's impossible to know. I mean, 'cause you've been working as... And it's, it's such a humbling experience because you have all these, you know, experienced professionals who are working really hard on this for months and months and months, and concentrating on every pixel of the frame of every shot. And someone's giving their care and attention to every element of it. And you take it to the mall and show it to a bunch of 14-year-olds who go, "Eh, it was kinda good. I kinda liked it. I don't know about this part over here." And you're, you're, they're the au… the jury. And, you know, it's, it's, it's a thrill just to see it on screen the first time. I mean, like, there's, there's that part of it. That you're, you're actually watching the movie to see Shark Tale or Chicken Run or any of the animated movies I worked on. To see them for the first time with an audience is a thrill. Like, it's finally b… being seen.

36:42Jawad MirYeah

36:43Mark SolomonAnd then you think, and then you get into the specifics of, okay, why are... Then you hear this sort of shuffling in the, in the seats or a little mumbling. You go, "Okay, why? They're bored. Why? Where did we go off?"

36:53Jawad MirYeah.

36:54Mark SolomonY… you're trying to analyze what happened, you know? And so then it becomes a, you know, a working process where you think, "Hey, th… we intended..." There's some, there's some… something lags in this part of the story. Where does that start and what, where did, what can we do to shift that to maintain interest or to shorten the le… the time when people are sort of feel restless?

37:17Jawad MirYeah.

37:17Mark SolomonAnd then after a, you see it a few times, seeing the movie becomes like a diary where it's like, "Oh, I remember that week when we were wrestling with this scene, and I remember when we had a fight about this, and this is…

37:30Jawad MirYeah

37:30Mark Solomon... What we ended up with. And it's either like, "Oh, I'm so glad that we'd wound up with this," or you think, "Oh, we still have that in there, that how could we let that go?" You know? That's sort of

37:42Jawad MirYeah

37:42Mark Solomon... The daily…

37:43Jawad MirYeah

37:43Mark Solomon... Diary of, is what you're watching when you see the movie.

37:46Jawad MirI'm, it's interesting you word it daily diary, but it's so true that, like, you know, whenever I, if I'm gone to a screening of a film that's 10 or 11 or 20th screening, and obviously I've kind of tuned out as to what the film is about or…

38:02Jawad Mir... Because I've, you know, seen it so many times, but there is that thing about, okay, how long did that scene take? Oh, we couldn't do this scene because the money wasn't there.

38:11Mark SolomonYeah.

38:12Jawad MirAnd all those fun things are g… it's great. But it's interesting you talked about the, you know, screenings humble you. I s… I spoke... You know Simon We… Wells, right?

38:20Mark SolomonSure.

38:21Jawad MirYeah. I told him this a long time ago in one of the earlier episodes. So the very first film that I directed, Only 78, which was about, 10 years ago or so, the very first screening, it just blew my socks away in a sense that people, you know, it was packed, standing ovation. I was on the top of the world. And then we did a second screening, and I don't know what went wrong with the mar… you know, the promotion and stuff, and it was a big theater, probably a capacity of, I would guess, of over 1,500 people.

38:55Mark SolomonWow

38:55Jawad Mir... And only one person showed up.

38:58Mark SolomonOh, no.

39:00Jawad MirAnd that humbling ex… I remember that feeling. That was such a terrible feeling, but it humbled me completely because I went from here to here… ... In a span of two days.

39:10Mark SolomonOh.

39:10Jawad MirAnd that, and I was so, and looking back at it, I'm so glad that happened because it taught me something really early that don't be on the high bandwagon for a long time because anything can happen at any time, so get used to it.

39:24Mark SolomonAnd same way on the other side.

39:25Jawad MirYeah.

39:25Mark SolomonThat if you, if you feel really bad about it, you know…

39:28Jawad MirIt can go up

39:29Mark Solomon... Yeah, it can go up as well. I mean, that stuff is mysterious.

39:34Jawad MirYeah.

39:34Mark SolomonIt's…

39:34Jawad MirIt's, it's, it's cool and fascinating in retrospect… ... Not at the time.

39:39Mark SolomonYeah.

39:41Jawad MirGreat.

39:41Mark SolomonBut yeah, it's definitely an emotional rollercoaster when you, when you see it and, or when you come, you know, to see, be with an audience when they're coming out of the theater and what they say…

39:51Jawad MirOh

39:52Mark Solomon... About it. I mean, s… sometimes it's thrilling, like, "Oh, it wor… we got them, you know? It really worked. These people got what we were trying to do." And sometimes they say, you know, "The, are we done now? This movie was, that was kind of wa…" Like in Spirit, I remember coming out of the movie and this kid says to his mom, "How come the horses don't talk?" And it's like, oh, we thought about that for months about how we would do that.

40:18Jawad MirYeah.

40:18Mark SolomonOr, you know, thing, it's, it, but that's what keeps it engaging and interesting as a process and a work and work to do that you never know what the, what the result's gonna be, and that it, that it, people can take it to their hearts or they'll leave it aside, and you never know, and that gives you a reason to stay engaged and interested in it. That it's unpredictable is part of the appeal of movie making, I think.

40:45Jawad MirNo, I agree, and I, it's a, it's, the thing of that you mentioned about the kid asking his mom about why don't the horses not talk, I mean, yeah, as a kid you probably want them to talk because that's what you've been exposed to all, you know…

40:55Mark SolomonYeah

40:56Jawad Mir... Disney movies. But the idea of a conversation being started, even if it's not something that you wanna hear, I think it's a great thing because then you have people talking, and she may have explained, "Okay, well, that's the way they have done it," or whatever.

41:10Jawad MirAnd as he probably grew up, he realized, "Oh." So I think these conversations are really important. If people walk out without talking to each other, whether they like the movie or they didn't like the movie, I think that's where things have sort of not gone the way you wanted 100%. But even if there's some…

41:27Mark SolomonYeah

41:27Jawad Mir... Neg… negative views and positive views, at least they're having a conversation about it.

41:32Mark SolomonYeah. The goal for me is always that you, I mean, the ideal is that people watch…

41:36Jawad MirOf course

41:36Mark Solomon... The movie, the lights come up, and the world looks different because you saw that movie.

41:42Jawad MirYeah.

41:42Mark SolomonYou know? And that's what you, that's what I aim for. I mean, like, that to me is at the top. The good… and I had that with, like, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, like to see like a, you know, alien visit movie and you think, "Oh, that could happen." You look up at the stars when you come out of the theater and you go, "Oh, the, there's somebody, there could be somebody out there."

42:04Jawad MirYeah.

42:04Mark SolomonOr that you, or however you s… you see the world, that you see the world slightly differently because of this movie. I mean, I think that's why we do what we do.

42:13Jawad Mir100%. 100%. Any plans to write another book?

42:18Mark SolomonYes. I have to figure out what that is, but yes. Yes, indeed there are, and I'll, I'll let you know when I have it. But I would like to.

42:26Jawad MirWell…

42:26Mark SolomonI enjoyed, writing is a very interesting process different from filmmaking. It was nice to do…

42:33Jawad MirWell, I... Sorry, go on.

42:34Mark SolomonTook about a year and a half all together to write.

42:37Jawad MirOkay.

42:37Mark SolomonAnd, the appeal is that there's, you know, y… there's no big committee you have to talk to get to call it finished. And to…

42:47Jawad MirYeah

42:47Mark Solomon... All be my own work and to be able to have something tangible you can hold in your hand is also a… appealing. Because with streaming movies, I mean, like, there's nothing that you have. I guess you can order a… you can still order DVDs or Blu-rays, but you don't have the thing in your hand the same way that you can hand to somebody a… and to hold it. I mean, like, so that's, that has a real appeal. And then it has l… long life, you know, that it, you know, hopefully anyway.

43:15Jawad MirYou're, you're so right about that because I experienced this myself. So, I have these customized USB sticks with my films on them.

43:26Mark SolomonOh, yeah.

43:26Jawad MirAnd depend… depending on who I meet, and if I feel there's something there, I'll give them that. And the result of that is 100% they would watch the films, all of them. As opposed to me sending an Amazon link.

43:44Mark SolomonYeah.

43:46Jawad MirIt's, it's hit and miss. So I think that tangible thing, 'cause people, like, realize, oh, you know, you've... This is something physical, and you've taken the time…

43:54Mark SolomonYeah

43:54Jawad Mir... To put this on. And I think that works. That does work. I don't know how long it's gonna last with the new generation and when they grow up and when we're gone, but it, for now, it does. It's, it's... People like that. People appreciate that.

44:05Mark SolomonYeah. Interesting. So that's the way I am. Happy to have, yeah, I'm happy to have a book written. It m… makes me wanna w… makes me wanna write more.

44:13Jawad MirIs it gonna be something about behind the scenes or a novel, or you don't know?

44:18Mark SolomonDon't know, don't know. Don't want... G… it's too early to talk about.

44:22Jawad MirGot it. Got it. Awesome. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate your ti… time and the chat.

44:26Mark SolomonIt's been a pleasure, Gil. It's good to see you again.

44:29Jawad MirLikewise. We'll talk again, I'm sure.

44:32Mark SolomonOkay.

44:33Jawad MirThank you so much, Mark. Take care.

44:34Mark SolomonThank you. Bye-bye.

44:35Jawad MirBye-bye. Bye.