'The Hunchback of Notre Dame', Director, Gary Trousdale

0:07Jawad MirHello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast. I'm your host, Jawad Mir. Today, my guest is a repeat guest. I've had him on this podcast once before to talk about Beauty and the Beast. It's none other than director Gary Trousdale, who directed, also co-directed and directed, The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The Hunchback of Notre Dame came in 1996 following the success of Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King from Walt Disney Pictures, and was quite successful. And I had a great time chatting with Gary about the film, the behind-the-scenes stuff, and all the funny anecdotal stories, and a whole lot of stuff. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Gary. Well, thank you again, Gary, for joining on Kingdom of Dreams podcast to talk about The Hunchback of Notre Dame, which came out in 1996. Yes.

1:02Gary TrousdaleYeah.

1:02Jawad MirYou know, and, is it, is it Demi Moore or Demi Moore? I always have a hard time figuring out which one it is.

1:10Gary TrousdaleOh, I think we said Demi.

1:14Jawad MirDemi, okay.

1:14Gary TrousdaleBut I've also heard Demi and I'm not su… I'm not sure what she preferred, to be honest.

1:21Jawad MirBecause there was a whole Seinfeld episode about it too, I remember. Is it Demi or Demi? But speaking of Seinfeld, Ja… Jason Alexander is in it too. And I specifically remember watching that film, here in Toronto. There used to be... Well, there still is this mall, Yorkdale Mall. It's a really big high-end mall, but at the time it probably wasn't. They had like an undergr… like three-level below the ground movie theater, and I remember watching it there and I remember, I still remember vividly experiencing that whole thing and watching those 360 shots when he's holding and the camera goes around and the giant…

2:04Jawad Mir... Bell in the 3D. It was a quite a remarkable film from a technology standpoint after Beauty and the Beast and Lion King. Toy Story had come out, I think. Yeah, just ta… talk to me about how you got onto the project, just to start off with, after working on, after we sp… you know, we spoke about Beauty and the Beast and, the success.

2:24Gary TrousdaleWe were, well, we were on Beauty and the Beast and, that being our first project, it was,.. I mean, to say it was exhausting would, you know, would be accurate and, you know, we'd never done anything like that before and we thought, "Okay, we need a break." You know, so we kind of... And there was, you know, nothing else for us to jump right onto at the moment anyway. So Kirk and I and, you know, some others, we went into the development department and just started kind of tooling around and was like, "Okay, well, what do we want to do next?" And the studio was pretty happy with us, so they kind of let us get away with that, you know, with like not really being terribly productive for a few months. So, we were kicking around an idea for, another project, an Orpheus and Eurydice project, and, excuse me, and, it was, it was to be set, you know, with in the ocean, you know, with like whales and fish and things like that.

3:30Gary TrousdaleAnd we had, we had a, you know, great art direction and we had, writers and composers and lyricists and all this stuff, and it was like kind of, you could kind of see it, but there were also some really big obvious problems. You know, like, how do you make a whale have a conversation with a brine shrimp? And, you know, those were, those were some of the characters. And we were pretty sure we would, we would figure it out. You know, given the time and letting it stew enough, we were fairly confident, "Okay, we'll, we'll, we'll get this. No problem. We'll get this." And before that moment came, before we had the chance, the phone rang and it was Jeffrey Katzenberg and he said, "Guys, drop everything. You're gonna go on to Hunchback of Notre Dame." And that was basically it. That was how we just, you know, we got thrown onto it by Jeffrey. He said, "I've already got Alan Menken and Stephen Schwartz," which we found out later he didn't have, and he was using us, Kirk and I, to like bait Alan and Stephen.

4:36Gary TrousdaleHe's like, "I've already got Kirk and Gary." you know, he's an executive, that's what they do, and he was good at it. But, so we got onto that. That was it. I mean, basically we dropped out of development pretty much that day and started assembling our team for Hunchback.

5:01Jawad MirThat's the oldest trick in the book, that you tell the other person that you've got the other person…... And vice versa. I won't, I won't lie…

5:08Gary TrousdaleWe totally fell for it.

5:09Jawad MirI won't lie, I recently used that and it worked. So

5:14Gary TrousdaleYeah, it works like a charm.

5:16Jawad MirIt works like a charm. But, I think, so the movie came out in '96. Katzenberg left Disney in '94 or around that time. So this was probably in '93 when you guys started working on it, or '92.

5:31Gary TrousdaleYeah. 'Cause he was with us for a little while and we were in pre-production, we were in design and script and all that. And, I mean, one of the notable changes that we made, after his departure was he had this thing about facial hair. He did not like it. You know, our early, our early models of Gaston in Beauty, he had like a little Errol Flynn mustache, and he's like, "No facial hair." So, you know, Gaston was clean-shaven. And so our drawings of Phoebus, you know, they were always clean-shaven and he l… you know, kind of baby-faced. And as soon as he was gone we said, "Hey, we can, we can give Phoebus a beard now, can't we?" So, you know, that's, that's one of the first things we did. Just out of, like, "We're free. We can, we can do this now." But yeah, I mean, it was, it was, kind of a s… kind of a surprise, I'll say.

6:35Gary TrousdaleIt wasn't a total surprise that he left because there were rumors, and Kirk always said, "Always believe the rumors," because they're, they're pretty much always true.

6:44Jawad MirYeah.

6:44Gary TrousdaleBut yeah, there were rumors that, "Oh, Jeffrey's gonna leave. Jeffrey's gonna, like, start up a… another company." I went, "No, they, he couldn't do that. He's, he's like CEO and y… all this," and yeah. So one day, the announcement came and it was like chaos for a day, and then things settled down and we got back to work.

7:04Jawad MirYeah, so it didn't really have a huge impact. Well it prob… maybe a little bit, but not as chaotic as it could have been after a couple of days.

7:14Gary TrousdaleI mean, it, chaos for a day meaning it was like everybody's running around going, "Who's in charge?" And, we ha… there were some Al Haig moments, you know, where some people stepped up and said, "I'm in charge now."

7:28Jawad MirYeah.

7:28Gary TrousdaleAnd, that, you know, it wa… it was j… it blew over very quick. W… it was just like a lot of uncertainty for about a day, and then it just kind of settled down and we had, you know, we had work to do. And as far as, like, the script or the songs or anything like that went, it was like, you know, we were well underway and things weren't really gonna change. And, you know, we still had a team working on it. So yeah, it didn't, it didn't really cause chaos in the production. It was just, like, that day, like, the writers and the production assistants and the, you know, the traffic guys and the, like, everybody was like, "What's gonna happen now?" So.

8:11Jawad MirYeah. And le… I don't know of the legalities of these things. I'm assuming that did y… you c… obviously he can't interfere in the project once he's officially been let go. But was he ever, on a personal note, like, just messaging you guys maybe after release or during…

8:30Gary TrousdaleNo

8:30Jawad Mir... The production? Nothing.

8:31Gary TrousdaleNo.

8:31Jawad MirJust completely detached.

8:32Gary TrousdaleAfter he left, no. I think, you know, we got a, like, a congratulations from him, like, when it was released. Like, "Good job, guys." But, during the, yeah, dur… during the production after he had left, we didn't hear from him again.

8:50Jawad MirThat sounds right about, that sounds pretty much like Jeffrey, like he doesn't... I mean, I've seen a lot of his interviews and, I chatted with him a few times over email too. He's like, he just does not believe in going backwards. He's always about…

9:04Gary TrousdaleRight

9:04Jawad Mir... Going f… going forward.

9:06Gary TrousdaleWe compare him to a shark at times. He's like, he's always focused on what's ahead.

9:12Jawad MirYeah. It's a, it's a good quality to have.

9:14Gary TrousdaleOh, yeah

9:16Jawad MirYou know…

9:16Gary TrousdaleHis focus, his, he had a, he had a lot of focus and, you know, it benefited us a lot of times, so.

9:23Jawad MirYeah. With, Hunchback, what were the learning lessons that you took from Beauty and the Beast, whether it was technology, story or whatever, that you guys a… were able, that you were limited to in technology-wise in Beauty and the Beast, even though I don't think you were because, I mean, it was a groundbreaking film, that you were able to bring in on Hunchback?

9:50Gary TrousdaleWell, one of the things on Beauty it was the technology was pretty untested. You know, we didn't know… ... If it was gonna work. The ballroom, we had a plan B because we were not confident that the shot would work, you know? So we had this backup plan. Fortunately it worked, and it worked out pretty well. And I credit both the technology and the hand-drawn animation, you know, to mesh together. It wasn't, wasn't just, "Oh my God, that new technology made that scene." It was the hand-drawn animation that fit within it, you know, that worked within the perspective and the movement, of that digital scene that really made that scene sing. Since then, they had Lion King and they figured out the crowd behaviors and when they were doing the wildebeest stampede…

10:47Gary Trousdale... That was all digital. And so that, and they were able to kind of randomize the behaviors of each individual wildebeest so that it didn't look like, you know, just a bunch of xeroxed, you know, animals. They each, they would move a little bit differently, and it wasn't that just timed differently, they would move differently. They had different animation, different behavior, different almost personalities. And when they were running, they figured out how they, you know, how the crowd could, like, split around a rock or around, you know, like water around a stone. They, these creatures could move and not crash into each other or crash, kind of ghost through each other, which had been a problem with, digital animation before. And we used that technology when we made the crowds, in Hunchback for, like, the Feast of Fools. There's…

11:48Gary Trousdale... The whole square is filled with probably thousands of characters. And r… I mean, the joke was we h… we threw a few wildebeest in there as well just to, you know, pay homage, but we took 'em out. But

12:02Jawad MirI was gonna say, I don't remember seeing any wildebeest.

12:03Gary TrousdaleNo, there... We had a, we had a few other Easter eggs, but no wildebeest. But, yeah, so that was a big one. The other things, you know, like the moving shots of the, of the cathedral and, the smoke and the, and the particles with like sparks and things like that, we had already kind of figured out. I mean, that was, that was something that was not quite as difficult as the crowds. But yeah, when you put them all together, and again, with the hand-drawn with like James having Quasimodo carry Esmeralda up the, up the tower and he calls it his King Kong shot, you know, when he like…

12:45Gary Trousdale... Looks back down and you see it up from under his arm and, you know, the camera follows them up. It, yeah, it all, it all worked again. We got lucky again.

12:57Jawad MirSo I don't know back then if things were different. So I've been to Notre Dame a few times, and each, in the last 15 to 16 years, and each time I've been, they don't let you in. Like, you can just see it from the outside and whatnot. So did you guys have an... Obviously, your, the whole movie more or less takes place in that environment. Were you guys given any access, any tour, for artists just to make sure that the…

13:26Gary TrousdaleWe were

13:26Jawad Mir... This…

13:27Gary TrousdaleBut at, when we were there, they did, they did conduct tours. So you could go into the main sanctuary and walk around and, you know, look at all the little side, alcoves and things like that and get, you know, get to… I don't think they allowed photography, so we had sketch artists, or maybe they did, I don't remember. But we did have, like, sketch artists like, "Okay, the pattern of the floor is like this, and here's these." And I, yeah, I don't think there was photography. You could buy postcards, you know, that would, that would show you.

13:55Jawad MirYeah.

13:56Gary TrousdaleBut…

13:57Jawad MirI…

13:57Gary TrousdaleBut they also…

13:57Jawad MirYeah, I think they told you... Sorry, go on.

13:59Gary TrousdaleGo, no, please go ahead.

14:01Jawad MirI was just gonna correct myself. I think what, I'm probably mixing it up with two things because there was that fire…

14:07Gary TrousdaleYeah

14:07Jawad Mir... And after that, I think they closed it, so…

14:10Gary TrousdaleYes, they did

14:10Jawad Mir... At some point. Yes.

14:12Gary TrousdaleYeah. Yeah, before that, and you could, I don't know, I don't remember the price, but you know, for a, for a very reasonable price, you could buy a ticket and, like, climb up the spiral staircase up to the, you know, up to the balcony and walk across the balcony, and you see the, you know, the famous gargoyles and the view of the city. But we did actually have a kind of behind-the-scenes tour. We had a couple of, local historians take us through kind of backstage of the sanctuary, and show us some of the artwork there, the murals on the wall, explain the s… significance of some of the stained glass. You know, th… things like that. As well as, well, as well as, you know, areas of the city. We had the…

15:04Gary Trousdale... Tours of the city. But then we also had a, kind of a docent tour of the, of the balcony where they let us into the areas that, you know, were kind of off-limits to the public, which mostly was, there was one bell tower that the public could go in and, you know, see one of the bells, and they let us in the other bell tower, which was cool, but it was like, it was not, it was not cleaned up at all. You know, the first one, it's all, it's all nice and restored and clean and the other one was like dusty and, like, used as a partial storage area and, you know, it was, it was like, "Okay, this is cool, but it's not like, it's not like the other tower." It's, it's more bells and, you know, it's kind of more of the same. But they also let us around the back of the towers because when you go up, you can just go on that balcony that's in front of the towers, and then the, going around the sides and the back is gated off.

16:00Jawad MirYeah.

16:00Gary TrousdaleSo they opened those gates for us, so we were able to see, different views of the roof and the central spire and gargoyles there that nobody sees. You know, there's, there's way more gargoyles back there. So we did get to see that as well.

16:19Jawad MirRight.

16:19Gary TrousdaleBut yeah, I guess, I guess it's opening this year, reopening.

16:24Jawad MirI think so. I think it already did. I th… unless maybe later this year, maybe around Christmas.

16:30Gary TrousdaleLike around Christmas?

16:32Jawad MirYeah, I think so. I mean, I just know that... So one of the most… Okay, this is going off topic. The thing with Paris is that, to me personally, I know everybody loves Paris. I think over the years it's not the way it used to be. It's not really looked after really well in terms of cleanliness. But one thing I really love about Paris is the boat tour.

16:55Gary TrousdaleYeah.

16:55Jawad MirAnd then when you go, on the canal and there is a, there is a bridge that is right before the cathedral, and at night it just looks absolutely beautiful because the way the light hits the boat, the glass on the boat, and it just kind of sort of semi deflects and you can see the, n… the cathedral. I j… I… to me, that's Paris. I mean, I've, I've been to so many places in Paris, but that to me defines Paris in the very most authentic way. I don't know. It's just one of those things that I just love the canal right next to the cathedral.

17:29Gary TrousdaleRight. I know, I know we went on them and, also, you know, saw… I probably time of day is everything in this because w… because we, I think we're more daylight, but kind of around the back of the cathedral and, you know, up the other side and I can't remember how far up the river we went, but, yeah, it w… it was pretty spectacular.

17:55Jawad MirYeah. It is. It is. Did you… how much of the Victor Hugo novel/1939 version of the film, was there any inspiration? I mean, obviously it's based on Victor Hugo novel, the genesis of the story.

18:11Gary TrousdaleRight.

18:11Jawad MirBut was there any inspiration from the 1939 film or did you guys see it or read the book thoroughly and took out stuff from there?

18:19Gary TrousdaleWell, 1939 was the Charles Laughton version?

18:22Jawad MirYes.

18:24Gary TrousdaleYeah. 'Cause I know we, I know we watched, I think there was an Anthony Quinn version and, the Lon Chaney version. We watched every version we could get our hands on.

18:34Jawad MirOkay.

18:35Gary TrousdaleYou know, so we probably took a little from all of them. The Charles Laughton version, the, just the, just the physicality of Quasimodo was, you know, pretty inspiring. Just how he moved and h… his expressions and such. But yeah, the book as well. You know, we,.. I don't think any… meh, I won't say anybody. I don't think most of us reread the book at that time, 'cause we had all, you know, pretty much read it, like, in high school. And it's, it's kind of a slog, you know? It's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a long read. And evidently it was apparently meant to be more about saving the cathedral than, you know, than the stories of the people around it. They were just kind of ancillary at the time for Victor Hugo. The, his aim was to, like, bring attention to the cathedral and isn't it beautiful, and shouldn't Paris, restore and save it, which, okay, it worked.

19:38Gary TrousdaleBut I also remember that the book was really depressing. Everybody dies in the book, and we thought, "Well, we're not gonna do that." and the other thing that, the other big change that we made was that, Frollo was the arch… the archbishop of the, of…

20:00Gary Trousdale... Of Paris in the book. And we didn't really feel comfortable, like, going after the church and, you know, like, slamming the Catholic Church or religion. But we thought, "Hey, everybody hates politicians. We'll make him a politician." And, you know, so that…... That worked okay.

20:22Jawad MirYou know, and that's so true even to d… to this day. Everybody hates politicians. That probably would have worked too.

20:30Gary TrousdaleThat was, that was actually an easy choice. It was like, "Yeah, let's do that."

20:35Jawad MirYeah. No, that's, that's, that's pretty funny. Thanks for sharing that. Working with... So, and with the three big names that I know in the film, right? Demi Moore, Jason Alexander, I think Kevin Kline.

20:51Gary TrousdaleKevin Kline

20:51Jawad Mir... Jason Alexander as George Costanza. Seinfeld started in 1989, and it really got its intensity, I think, in the late 92s or early 93s. Like, that's where it became popular, and probably that's around the time when you guys started working on the film. Working with him, was that a direct result of Seinfeld, or was that…

21:14Gary TrousdaleWas that a, was that a what?

21:15Jawad MirA direct result of his performance in Seinfeld? Like…

21:18Gary TrousdaleOh, probably.

21:19Jawad MirYeah.

21:20Gary TrousdaleI mean, he had done, he had done voice work for another animated series that… ... Called Duckman. And

21:32Jawad MirOkay

21:32Gary Trousdale... I… it was ki… you know, kind of a quirky series, but it was like, wow, he had a lot of energy. He was pretty fearless and, you know, those were a couple qualities that we liked. Plus, we just liked his voice and, yeah, I mean, undoubtedly the George Costanza character had some influence o… on our decision. But, you know, he, w… we auditioned a lot of people and we liked, we liked him and, yeah, it was, it was a pretty easy decision to make.

22:07Jawad MirSpeaking of auditions…

22:07Gary TrousdaleCharles Kimbrough was a... Oh, go ahead, sorry.

22:09Jawad MirNo, please go ahead. Don't worry about me. Go ahead.

22:11Gary TrousdaleOh, I was gonna say Charles Kimbrough was, I mean, we were kind of recalling his role of, Jim Dial in, the sitcom Murphy Brown. He was, he was this, the stuffy, news anchor and we thought, "That voice is perfect." And it would go... A, it was a perfect foil with Jason. So yeah, when we cast one, we pretty quickly cast the other.

22:41Jawad MirYou said auditions. So for Demi Moore's chara… Esmeralda character, Kevin Kline's character, and, any other, you know, character, like, what, who were some of the... Specifically with those two, who were the actors that you guys may have wanted or were considering and it didn't pan out? Or were they the first choices?

23:03Gary TrousdaleWell, one of the, one of the actors that we read and were a hair away from casting for Quasimodo was Meat Loaf. ... He came in and read and sang, and we met him, and he was super cool and, you know, he did a great job and we thought, "This g… this is gonna be great." And we may have even done, like, the preliminary paperwork with him, and it was to the point... You know, we had him on a couple of callbacks and we, you know, we all clicked and, to the point where Kirk and I were walking out to the parking lot and said, "Okay, what do we call him? I mean, do we call him Mr. Loaf or do we call him Meat? Or what do we, what do we... " but he had, I guess, like, tours or, you know, some kind of schedule conflict that would not allow it, and so he had to drop out. And that's when we, you know, we continued casting and picked up Tom Hulce.

24:00Jawad MirIsn't that, isn't that crazy, that how people's, you know, lives are made? Certain actors, like, in terms of being picked up after somebody's schedule got into trouble. Like, for example, Matt Damon, I was watching, he turned down Avatar.

24:17Gary TrousdaleOh.

24:17Jawad MirAnd he was going to make… Probably, you know, in the back end, ridiculous amount of money. And he talks about it now, and then it w… it went to Sam Worthington. But isn't that crazy that how those things happen? Like, sometimes…

24:32Gary TrousdaleYeah

24:32Jawad Mir... It's meant to be, especially specifically Michael J. Fox in Back to the Future. Like, that story's insane, like how... I for… I forget the guy who was originally casted. They shot half the movie originally, and they had to drop him and went with Michael J. Fox.

24:48Gary TrousdaleRight.

24:48Jawad MirYeah.

24:49Gary TrousdaleI had just read that, the movie A Christmas Story, the father, Darren McGavin…

24:55Jawad MirYeah

24:55Gary Trousdale... They originally wanted to give to, Jack Nicholson, and who was real interested in it, but it, you know, one thing or another happened, plus the studio said, "Y… we can't afford him." And, it went to Darren McGavin, who they eventually said he was born to play that role. I mean, he was, he was perfect for it.

25:15Jawad MirThat's a great movie.

25:15Gary TrousdaleSo yeah, things work out in the weirdest ways.

25:18Jawad MirYeah. I gotta, I gotta rewatch that movie. It's been a while. That's a great movie, A Christmas Story.

25:24Gary TrousdaleIt…

25:24Jawad MirYeah

25:24Gary Trousdale... That's a, that's, that's a Christmas, tradition, is like every Christmas that's on.

25:29Jawad MirYeah. For me, it's always been Home Alone, but I think I need to sort of change it up a little bit.

25:33Gary TrousdaleYeah. Yeah.

25:35Jawad MirWhen Hunchback came out, Hunchback of Notre Dame came out, I mean, you guys just came off this film Beauty and the Beast, right? Like, it was... I, and when you and I spoke last time, nobody expected it to do the way it did, that yada. And now you have all this extra pressure that you have made this amazing film and, you know, how is this film going to perform? Was there that extra pr… pressure during the production and even after the release that you had to live up to the, Beauty and the Beast outcome?

26:10Gary TrousdaleA… absolutely. I mean, number one, we didn't, we didn't wanna seem like Beauty and the Beast was a fluke, you know? We didn't, we didn't wanna seem like that was a lucky accident and everything else was just, you know, we're, we're just phoning it in. We wanted to do the best that we could. And people genuinely thought, "This is gonna, this is gonna surpass it. This is gonna be even better. This is g…

26:32Gary TrousdaleYou know? And technologically it probably was. And animation-wise, I mean, we had a little more time, in our schedule for this one, so we took a little more care in, the special effects and the, you know, the animation that, all of that. So it w… there was a little more care put into it, and we were pretty sure that it was gonna do really well. And yeah, so it was a little disappointing that it didn't do... That it ran up against, you know, kind of social, s… social roadblocks that like, oh, we don't... You know, people were upset that it seemed too adult, you know, for the, for children, that there were themes in it that were too adult, that Demi Moore was, too much of an adult actress, you know, for a Disney film. The Southern Baptists got mad at us and demanded that their flock, boycott Disney.

27:36Gary TrousdaleAll kinds of things. So yeah, it was a lit… it was a little disappointing.

27:41Jawad MirI didn't realize all that stuff existed in the '90s. I thought it was a current trend of, backlashes and canceling stuff.

27:50Gary TrousdaleYeah. It... Demi Moore at the time was, at the same time that she was doing voice for us, she was doing a couple other movies. One of them was Striptease, and, that got the attention of, you know, some of the more c… conservative, audience members, and kind of irrationally, concluded that Disney was hiring in, on a, basically an adult film star, you know, and how could Disney do this? And, you know, considering this other work that she's doing, how could they put her in a, in a Disney movie? And we thought, for Christ's sake, people, she's a, she's a professional actress. She's an adult. This is her job, you know, this is what she does. She is free to take the roles that she, you know, that she applies for, that she likes, that she wants. And, you know, this is, this character is not that character. But, yeah, it didn't, that argument didn't really fly.

28:52Gary TrousdaleThey still got mad at us.

28:55Jawad MirDid you, did you guys do a screening in Paris? I'm sure you did, but…

28:58Gary TrousdaleDid we what?

28:59Jawad MirA screening in Paris, like around Hunchback, a… a… around, Notre Dame?

29:03Gary TrousdaleI think we did. I'm, I'm trying to remember exactly where it was, but yeah.

29:08Jawad MirWas it received well there?

29:10Gary TrousdaleIt was, which, was also a little bit of a surprise to us because we were very nervous that here's, here's Disney Studios, here's Mickey Mouse, and we're trumping all over, you know, this national treasure of, literature of theirs. And, so yeah, we were a little worried because we had made some big changes and we put, you know, stinging gargoyles and, you know, all this, all this other stuff in there. And it went over really well. You know, they, France pretty much embraced it. So yeah, we were very happy with that.

29:48Jawad MirI wonder if it has, it has partially to do with the fact that French appreciate art overall, like art as a, you know, like even like paintings, and they have so many museums and galleries and film, more than I think a lot of other countries in the world do.

30:05Gary TrousdalePossibly. Possibly.

30:07Jawad MirYeah.

30:07Gary TrousdaleAnd like I said, I mean, we did take a lot of care in this one. And

30:12Jawad MirYeah

30:12Gary Trousdale... We had a, kind of a satellite, studio, in one of the suburbs of Paris where we had a bunch of artists there as well. So they were able to go through, they were able to just sit You know, on the banks of the Seine and sketch Notre Dame or, you know, go to the old sections of the city and draw, you know, what the buildings look like. And so there was, there was an authenticity to it as well that might have, might have helped, kind of, kind of push it.

30:41Jawad MirTrue. That does, that's a really good point because the cathedral, the very first time I saw the cathedral was in 2008 and '09 in real, you know, when I went to France, and my reference point was Hunchback of Notre Dame, and it was like ditto copy of what you got. You know what, like, it was just perfect. Like, that's the way I saw it in the film and that's the way it was in real life. And I think again, like to preserve that authenticity is probably one of the many reasons that people appreciated it, the culture and the history.

31:20Gary TrousdaleYeah.

31:20Jawad MirYeah. A lot of times I see with a lot of directors in animation, whether they were at DreamWorks or Disney, you know, you direct couple of films or one film or three films, and then you somehow become a storyboard artist on all these other flicks, right? Which is, I understand, like, you know, you have to pay the bills and it's a job and everything, but how does that... I… is that sometimes not rewarding psychologically that you went from, you know, I'm not trying to like put positions, but it's like, you know, director is essentially the captain of the ship, but from directing films to maybe a little bit on the middle side of things and…

32:02Gary Trousdaleit, I guess it depends on the situation. Because after, I guess Beauty and the Beast, one of the things that I did was I did go back to storyboard ... On Lion King, and it was, it was kind of a relief. One of my, disappointments or regrets on Beauty and the Beast was that I didn't have time to draw, you know?

32:30Gary TrousdaleAnd that's, that's why I got into the business, and I like to draw. So it was, it was nice to just be able to sit and draw and create and not have the responsibility. You know, I didn't have to go to the meetings and get yelled at by executives and I could just sit and draw.

32:48Jawad MirGood point.

32:49Gary TrousdaleBut after a while you miss it, you know? It's like, oh, you know, I would do this different, but I'm not in charge now. So yeah, and after a point, yeah, after a point, the studios, they see the directors and go, "Well, yeah, we know what you've done in the past, but we've got some, we've, we've got some hot young directors now, so why don't, why don't you do, why don't you like, you know, just kind of sit back and relax and do your storyboards? You know, give us your little cartoons." So yeah, it's, it's a mixed bag.

33:25Jawad MirHot young directors, in other words, controllable and cheap.

33:30Gary TrousdaleEx… ex… exactly. I mean, I've said too much.

33:37Jawad MirYou didn't say that. I said it. It's okay. I can say it. Lion King you worked on as a storyboard artist. What were your responsibilities and tasks?

33:49Gary TrousdaleI had a couple of sequences. I had a few sequences. The first meeting of young Simba with Timon and Pumbaa, which got paired way down, but, you know, when the vultures, you know, kind of come in around…

34:05Jawad MirYeah

34:05Gary Trousdale... Simba and they break it up. That was a longer scene where there was like dialogue with the vultures, but it, we, that was cut out. They were just kind of trying to talk him down. Simba was like putting up a little bit of a struggle and there was like, "No. Just we'll take care of this." And it was like, it was like kind of grim, you know? So they cut that out. The meeting with young Simba and Scar, you know, when

34:31Gary Trousdale... Kind of on the cliff, and he's, "You're, you're so weird." "Oh, you have no idea." You know, that scene, I worked on. The song, S… Scar's song, Be Prepared with the hyenas. And like, you know, the goose stepping hyenas. I storyboarded that. And then just like things throughout, you know? It was like, okay, we're having trouble with, you know, with where the movie's going and, you know, what's happening, and we'd get in a, you know, a big conference room meeting and just like throw ideas out. So I got to contribute in some of those. So yeah, it was, it wa… it was all over the place. Brenda, Chapman was the head of story on that, and…

35:18Gary Trousdale... Sh… she was fantastic, you know? So, and she had the job of going in and getting yelled at by the, by the executives. But, I mean, she was a fierce defender of her crew and, plus she's just a lovely person. So yeah, we, it was, it was a joy. And she had worked for, she had worked for us on Beauty, you know? She and, she and Roger Allers had kind of partnered up. They were the ones that storyboarded the ballroom sequence and the dance. And…

35:50Jawad MirOh, I didn't know that.

35:51Gary TrousdaleYeah. And, so now I'm working, so now I'm working for Roger and Brenda, so it was, it was nice.

36:01Jawad MirOh, you're working for Roger and Brenda now?

36:03Gary TrousdaleNo. Then.

36:04Jawad MirOh.

36:04Gary TrousdaleThen.

36:04Jawad MirOh, then. Okay.

36:05Gary TrousdaleYeah.

36:05Jawad MirOkay. Yeah. No, Brenda is, Brenda is really lovely human being and fun to chat with, for sure. You know, it's, it's, I just kind of randomly remembered something. I completely forgot about this. So in the late '90s, my parents used to have this children clothing store in a mall and when you… It was called Peas in a Pod, and when you walk in, there was a TV, you know, the tube TV, basically.

36:35Gary TrousdaleRight. Right.

36:35Jawad MirAnd the only movies that ever played on that TV, I remember there were four of them, for a t… li… for a time being was Toy Story, Hunchback, Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, and maybe Pocahontas.

36:52Gary TrousdaleOkay.

36:52Jawad MirI... So I remember li… every day I would come from school just to help out, it would just be on…

37:00Gary TrousdaleDisney movie night

37:01Jawad Mir... And on and on, and then you just... It just kind of went into our heads that's, the, especially Lion King, Pocahontas, and Hunchback is, like, something that was on all the time. So it stays in our subconscious, at least for me, 'cause that's all you hear when you're in the store.

37:16Gary TrousdaleSure, yeah.

37:18Jawad MirDisney has done some incredible stuff. You know, it's amazing to…

37:22Gary TrousdaleBut I mean, that much of it all the time, I mean, that's, that's where... Kinda have to apologize to you. I'm really sorry that…

37:29Jawad MirNo. No. I'm saying in a positive way, man. It's like, it's, it shapes... For me, Disney shaped my childhood. Like, watching Disney Afternoon and, you know, Darkwing Duck, DuckTales, TaleSpin, Bonkers. I mean, there are so many. Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers.

37:47Gary TrousdaleRight.

37:47Jawad MirGummi Bears. So no, there's no… nothing to apologize. I'm really proud of that. It's just something that stays with you.

37:56Gary TrousdaleOkay.

37:58Jawad MirSorry.

37:58Gary TrousdaleFair enough.

38:01Jawad MirSo yeah. So thanks, man. I appreciate your time, as usual. I know you're busy, so I really thank you for taking the time to chat.

38:11Gary TrousdaleSure

38:12Jawad Mir... Whenever you're ready, maybe in the next little while when your next project... Anything that's about to get a green light or still kind of in the middle of something?

38:20Gary TrousdaleWe're still... Yeah, we're, we're still kind of circling around, you know, like, scraping together funding and, got a... The project that I'm working on with Cloud Ten, is going forward, you know. We're, we're basically funding it ourselves and, it's... Oddly enough, it's, it's a, it's a Christmas series, you know, which people say, "A series?" But the thing we found out is that, kids don't care when a Christmas show is. I mean, they'll watch, they'll watch a Christmas cartoon in July, you know, if you, if you put it on for them. So yeah, it's a, I don't wanna say a Toy Story-like, but it's, it's, with... Takes place inside a Christmas tree, you know? And just follows the lives of the ornaments, you know? So

39:18Jawad MirThat's pretty neat

39:19Gary Trousdale... It's, it's fun. It's a lot of fun. And, we're not trying to tell the true meaning of Christmas or anything like that because everybody's seen that a million times already.

39:30Jawad MirYeah.

39:30Gary TrousdaleSo it's just, Christmas is almost as the backdrop, and this is the setting. So yeah, it's, it's, it's cute and it's fun.

39:39Jawad MirThat does sound very, interesting and unique. It reminds me of the movie that I just saw yesterday with, from Robert Zemeckis, Here, which is just, like, one camera frame. I don't know if you've heard of it.

39:50Gary TrousdaleWhich one is it?

39:51Jawad MirHere, H-E-R-E.

39:54Gary TrousdaleNo.

39:54Jawad MirWith Tom Ha… with Tom Hanks and Robin Wright. You haven't heard of Here?

39:58Gary TrousdaleI... Maybe I have.

40:00Jawad MirSo it's like…

40:01Gary TrousdaleIt's new, right?

40:02Jawad MirI… yeah, it just came out last week. It... It didn't really res… do well box office or review-wise, which I thought was weird because I thought it was a great film. It's just literally one frame, and then how from the times of the dinosaur up until present, how things in that one space change, and the way it's edited and the way the story goes back and forth, it's totally anything. Unlike…

40:28Gary TrousdaleThat sounds really cool.

40:29Jawad MirYeah. Unlike... I mean, it's a little gimmick, but that gimmick goes away in the first 10 minutes…

40:33Gary TrousdaleYeah

40:33Jawad Mir... 'cause the characters are so strong, that you just, you get used to that space. That this is, this is the world that you are in for an hour and 45 minutes.

40:43Gary TrousdaleYeah. I mean, I've seen, like, fast motion versions of that, where here we are in the, you know, the, like, the Cambrian period, and then they do just fast-forward and trees go up and down, and mountains and…

40:57Jawad MirYeah

40:57Gary Trousdale... Rivers and, then you see the trees cleared, and little settlements and bigger buildings, and bam, we're, we're, we're in Times Square, so.

41:05Jawad MirThat... There's a little bit of that in the very beginning, but then the way the rest of the movie unfolds, it's, it's, it's like every transition is there for a purpose to connect the story and the characters. And it's tough to explain, but you gotta watch it. I highly recommend it.

41:20Gary TrousdaleYeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm wondering how the characters, what the through line of the characters over this period of time is, but I guess I'll have to find out.

41:30Jawad MirYou'll have to find out. It's a great film.

41:32Gary TrousdaleYeah. Yeah.

41:32Jawad MirIt's a great film. Awesome.

41:33Gary TrousdaleGood.

41:33Jawad MirThank you so much, Gary, for your time, man.

41:36Gary TrousdaleYou're welcome. Thank you.