'The Book of Clarence', Costume Designer, Antoinette Messam

0:08Jawad MirHi, everyone. This is your host Jawad with Kingdom of Dreams Podcast. On today's episode, I have Antoinette Messam, a costume designer who has worked on various films, including Creed. But today, she's here to talk about The Book of Clarence. The film tells the story of Clarence, a struggling man who gets captivated by the rising Messiah, and that changes his life completely. It's an adventure, religious/comedy. A really well-shot film from a cinematography standpoint as well, and costume, of course, which we're gonna talk about. I really had a great time talking to her. Here's my conversation with Antoinette Messam. I came across Book of Clarence, about... A little while ago, I saw a poster somewhere. I mean, there was just something that was there, and didn't really think much of it. And then, when I was reached out by your, by your agent Janine, or Samaya was, we... I saw the film, and I was not expecting it to be the way it was.

1:13Jawad MirIt was kinda like, I don't know if you remember L… Leonardo DiCaprio's Romeo and Juliet, like back in the day.

1:19Antoinette MessamYeah. Yeah

1:19Jawad MirYou know, in that kind of a tone. But just the visuals and the costumes and the set were so... They were not hidden. They were just so out there, like, you know, with the wider shots and everything, and I really, I really enjoyed it. I thought it was really cool…

1:36Antoinette MessamAw

1:36Jawad Mir... And something different, I think. Yeah.

1:37Antoinette MessamThank you. I wish more people would watch it. You know?

1:42Jawad MirYeah.

1:42Antoinette MessamIt's one of those things where, I remember doing a podcast a few months ago, and the person who I know through the industry, he's, does a lot of, costume panel as a moderator. He said, "Oh, I was wary of watching it. I just, you know, shy away from the religious stuff." And I'm like, "Y… I'm glad you got past that," because if... Once he watched it, he really liked it and loved the v… As, like you said, the visuals was just eye candy for him, so I'm, I'm happy that,.. I'm trying to get more people to take a chance with it.

2:23Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's interesting you t… Mes… You said about that religious thing, right? And I... It's weird that how we live in a time now where that's something that people sort of frown upon. 'Cause at the end of the day, you know, it doesn't matter whether you believe in something or you believe in something different or not, at the core is story, right? At the core…

2:42Jawad Mir... It's a story. Yes, you know, Passion of the Christ was one of the most high, highest grossing movies of all time when it came out. But it's just fascinating how s… as a society our thinking evolves and changes. And I get to some extent sometimes some movies are a little too over preachy, but still there is, you know, story. Even this one certainly isn't. And you mentioned, you know, I wish more people see it. What I would recommend that you see, and I was just talking to a music composer of this film, called Exhibiting Forgiveness.

3:15Jawad MirI, you probably have never heard of it because I had never heard of it either.

3:19Antoinette MessamNo.

3:19Jawad MirI was going to watch it on my iPad while I was, you know, doing my work and everything, and it started and it hooked me. I'm like, "I can't do this," so I had to watch it at night. And a father and son relationship and a mom relationship. It blew me away. I highly recommend that you watch that. It's a great film.

3:41Antoinette MessamOkay.

3:42Jawad MirSorry, I'm just going deviated.

3:43Antoinette MessamNo, and that's okay because this is the season where you're trying to squeeze in films that you normally would not, o… o… one, have the opportunity to watch. Like, I'm, I'm an Academy member, so you know, trying to get out to see some international films while they're available to us…

4:02Jawad MirYeah

4:02Antoinette Messam... Instead of waiting till it comes on Netflix or something, you know. So I'm…

4:07Jawad MirYeah

4:07Antoinette Messam... Always open to getting ideas. Thank you.

4:11Jawad MirAwesome. Well, getting back to your work and your career, you've worked on a lot of different films, including Creed… ... Which is the extension of the Rocky series. Just to kind of, you know, being in the industry myself, I'm always curious about everybody's journey, how they start…

4:32Jawad Mir... Why they started what they started. So what's your sort of catalyst for being who you are today?

4:39Antoinette MessamWow. I mean, I didn't... I sometimes think I came in through the back door, you know. I was a stylist. I was m… my career path led me through fashion, you know. I was… ... That was where I thought I was gonna be. I've even had a clothing line. But, at a point when my son was very young, I wanted something a little bit more stable, and someone recommended with my experience I could buy, be a buyer in f… in film. And you know, what I was l… looking for was a steady paycheck, not the terms that come with, you know, fashion jobs like commercials and music videos. Sometimes you're waiting 30, 60, 90 days to get paid, and, with a toddler and babysitters, I needed a regular paycheck. And someone recommended I buy for, in film, and I reached out to a few designers. And one of them, who became my mentor for the next several decades, she hired me as her buyer, and then felt I had the experience and the style to recommend me for a TV series that MTV was doing in Toronto, and it was their first drama series in the early '90s.

6:04Antoinette MessamAnd I'm saying early '90s, like '92. And, That was my first job as a costume designer. I mean, I'd done music videos and a few commercials before that, but that was when I had to read a script and break it down, and think about the story and how I was going to dress someone to do all the beats that it required. You know? It's not just like standing there in front of a f… you know, Ford pickup looking cute. You know, I needed to have them get up, leave their house, go meet somebody, have conversation, spill something on their clothes. You know, all those things came, and it was, it was an incredible learning curve, and I'm so thankful now for the people who had patience with me because I literally whoop, went up to the top, was the costume designer. But then after that, I went back, and I did set, and I did the truck.

7:10Antoinette MessamI just wanted to get a better... I mean…

7:11Jawad MirRight

7:11Antoinette Messam... It's one thing when you're a designer, and you're going on to set, and you're establishing and helping your actors feel comfortable and all that. But I wanted more experience to organize the truck for a movie or a TV series.

7:26Jawad MirYeah.

7:26Antoinette MessamTo be able to address anything that came up on set with talent. You know, Monica Schnaar dropping a chocolate fudge cake, piece of cake down the front of her dress. You know, stuff like that. And, it was good because I then continued to design, and in between did, in my early days, did stuff to kinda get more well-rounded experience, if you wanna call it that.

7:56Jawad MirSure.

7:57Antoinette MessamYeah.

7:57Jawad MirWhat series was it in Toronto that you were working on? Do you remember?

8:00Antoinette MessamIt was called Catwalk. It was for MTV, and, it, I, it is on IMDb. It was hard find, but it is on... So YTV, a Toronto s… production company.

8:14Jawad MirI know. Yeah, I'm from Toronto. I know exactly what YTV is.

8:17Antoinette MessamOh, you do?

8:18Jawad MirYeah.

8:18Antoinette MessamSo YTV did season one, and then MTV bought season two. And MTV said, "Well, we don't want a costume designer. We want someone who's a stylist," because Catwalk was about a band that was in New York.

8:35Jawad MirYeah.

8:35Antoinette MessamBut they shot it in Toronto.

8:37Jawad MirToronto.

8:38Antoinette MessamYou know, back in…

8:39Jawad MirThat…

8:39Antoinette Messam... You know, the '90s. Everything was shot in Toronto…

8:42Jawad MirYeah

8:42Antoinette Messam... For New York. You know, cheaper.

8:45Jawad MirToronto, yeah. No, I know. It's funny you mention YTV because I had just moved to Canada in 1990, and you know, I was, I was a teenager, so YTV was one of those kids channels.

8:56Antoinette MessamYeah.

8:57Jawad MirAnd it was, like, always one of those channels that I would flip betw… I don't even think it exists anymore. I mean, I haven't had cable in 20 years, but…

9:03Antoinette MessamI don't think it's...

9:05Jawad MirYeah. It was, like, the go-to channel f… kinda for all the edgy, fun, you know, quirky kids stuff and

9:13Antoinette MessamYeah

9:13Jawad Mir... But yeah. I haven't heard that name in a long time, YTV. Good to hear that.

9:18Antoinette MessamWell, now you understand what I speak about because you're C… you've lived in Canada, and lived in To… and not even just Canada, my hometown, Toronto.

9:29Jawad MirSo Toronto is your hometown?

9:30Antoinette MessamYeah, that's my hometown.

9:32Jawad MirWhen did you move out?

9:33Antoinette MessamYeah, that's where I grew up.?

9:35Jawad MirWhen did you move out of Toronto?

9:37Antoinette MessamI left Toronto around 2007.

9:41Jawad MirOkay

9:42Antoinette Messam... I, and then immediately went to n… LA and booked Orphan, and came back to Toronto, you know? But the director didn't know I was Canadian at the time. But

9:56Jawad MirYeah

9:56Antoinette Messam... Yeah. So you know, mid to late 2000s, and then I'd say i… if anyone asked me, "When were you official?" I was official around 2011. That's when I got my green card. And, leased a place and moved everything up from Toronto here, only to leave it here while I jump on a plane and go somewhere to go work.

10:20Jawad MirYeah.

10:20Antoinette MessamBut I'm…

10:20Jawad MirThat's how it works

10:21Antoinette Messam... It, yeah, I'm based here, put it that way.

10:24Jawad MirAnd where were you in Toronto? Which area?

10:27Antoinette MessamT… downtown. I had a house at, just on the border of Little Italy and Little Portugal. So do you know where…

10:35Jawad MirDown Bloor?

10:35Antoinette Messam... Bloor and Ossington is?

10:37Jawad MirYeah.

10:38Antoinette MessamYeah. And then you walk south, and you're in, College Street. And so I was right at, like, Roxton Road between Bloor and Roxton. If I walked, if I walked east, I'm at Christie Pits, and if I walked west, I'm going towards Dufferin Mall. So I was right in the middle.

11:00Jawad MirAmazing.

11:01Antoinette MessamYeah, it was a great…

11:01Jawad MirYeah, I…

11:02Antoinette Messam... Great spot there, yeah

11:02Jawad Mir... It was a great, I mean, downtown has changed so much now. I used to go to Ryerson, which is not even called…

11:07Antoinette MessamYeah

11:07Jawad Mir... Ryerson anymore. But I remember going to Uptown Movie Theatre, which I'm sure you know very well about.

11:13Antoinette MessamYep.

11:13Jawad MirBloor and Yonge. That was my favorite movie theater, and they got rid of it, I think, 10 years ago or so.

11:18Antoinette MessamThey got rid of so much great…

11:20Jawad MirYeah

11:21Antoinette Messam... I mean, what was that incredible record store that was right there?

11:24Jawad MirSam the Record Man.

11:25Antoinette MessamSam the Record Man. And I knew it was over when Honest Ed's went.

11:30Jawad MirYeah.

11:30Antoinette MessamWhich was where we all went as, you know, growing up. My parents would go to Honest Ed to stock…

11:34Jawad MirOh, yeah

11:34Antoinette Messam... On basics, you know?

11:37Jawad MirIt was a hangout place, like Costco almost.

11:40Antoinette MessamYeah. Right?

11:41Jawad MirThey do have, they do have this, on Yonge and Bloor, Yonge and Dundas there's, on Victoria Street where Ryerson is, in one of the buildings on the top they have a label Sam the Record Man. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's the headquarters or what. But yeah, that main store where all the records were…

11:57Antoinette MessamYeah

11:57Jawad Mir... Yeah, they took it out a long time ago. Well, that's good to hear that you're from Toronto, and…

12:02Antoinette MessamYeah

12:02Jawad Mir... You know. And, going back to Book of Clarence, h… what was the journey behind getting on that and…... Film and what excited you. I mean, obviously it's a period piece. That's one reason for the interest, but just walk me through that. What kinda began that journey?

12:22Antoinette MessamWell, you know, it's interesting you start, you said that it, the period piece is what interested me. It is interesting, and I remember the, at the time when it was, like, all I could think of is, I know I'm a former stylist, but I can do period, and it's like pushing to get period work. And now I'm doing period work, it's like, "You guys, I can do other things."

12:45Jawad MirYeah.

12:45Antoinette MessamBut, I just, I mean, I got a call from Jeymes Samuel. I was, I loved what we did together on The Harder They Fall, and I accepted the job before I even read the script. I trusted him. I was like, if Jeymes wrote this, it's gonna be cool. And then I read the script, and I'm like, this is cool.

13:07Jawad MirYeah.

13:07Antoinette MessamThis is cool. Our schedule is insane, but this is, you know, pretty incredible to think about just some of the beats, and he writes with music. So there'll be, there was music in, interjected in the scenes, so it kind of took you into, especially if you knew the music, and, we have similar tastes. He li… does a lot of reggae.

13:33Antoinette MessamA lot of soul music, and this one is a little bit more jazzy than, The Harder They Fall. But, you know, if I didn't recognize the name, I'd pull it up on YouTube and listen as I was reading. So it was, it was really nice. It was a lot bigger than the edit you saw on T… on film. It was like, whoa, how much money do we have? And then also too, just being excited to go someplace I'd never worked before, which was Italy. Like, how could I say no to that, you know? And it was an incredible…

14:05Jawad MirYeah

14:05Antoinette Messam... Experience. I loved my crew. Matera's probably one of the most beautiful places I've ever been in my life. You know?

14:15Jawad MirIt's, I'm glad you mentioned that because I was gonna ask you, 'cause I didn't have a chance to look up where y… where it was shot. It felt a lot like Middle East…

14:24Antoinette MessamYeah

14:24Jawad Mir... But it had, it had a little bit of Sicily feel to it, minus the color of the walls, because Sicily's more like, you know, darker color bricks and everything. But yeah, it was a beautiful location, and, like I said, I think what made, what really caught me in, into the film as I started watching it was just, you know, there's, I, there was this new series that was out by, on Amazon Prime. It was about gladiator times. It's called The Things That We Die For. I don't remember the name of the exactly. Ronald Emmerich, who's directed Independence Day and stuff, he did it, and the special effects for that were so terrible. They were like chariot races.

15:05Antoinette MessamYeah.

15:05Jawad MirAnd you c… you could see the background being blurred, and you could see it was just, like, a screen. It wasn't even, like, done properly. Kinda like the old days.

15:13Antoinette MessamYeah.

15:13Jawad MirBut when I saw the opening of this, and I felt I was right there in the middle of that town…

15:19Antoinette MessamYeah

15:19Jawad Mir... Because it was just done so authentically.

15:22Antoinette MessamIt was done authentically and practical. There i…

15:27Jawad MirYeah, of course. That's what I meant

15:28Antoinette Messam... There was VFX. There was VFX. Don't misunderstand.

15:30Jawad MirYeah.

15:31Antoinette MessamWe shot all of that, and that was the first thing we shot, because we had Benedict Cumberbatch for two weeks right off the top. So from the first day of camera for two weeks, and then he was out. So we shot the chariot with him almost getting run over, and we shot all the crucifixion stuff with him on the hill, and, you know, going through the town. Like, literally because he t… his character walked through every set, the first two weeks we established so much. It was incredibly stressful. But we did it, you know?

16:09Jawad MirYeah. How big is your team on that film?

16:12Antoinette MessamWow. It was a big team. I'd say easily base 20 people upwards to 35 on big background days. And then of course when we added second unit, that was a whole other team doing second unit. I was talking to my set supervisor and just getting names of people that I wanted to just give a shout-out to, and when she's like, "Oh, this person handled the Romans, and this person handled the people on the, you know, in the background," and it was just like, wow, I didn't remember h… we were that big. But yeah…

16:52Jawad MirYeah

16:52Antoinette Messam... I'd say average about 30 people.

16:57Jawad MirRight. It, in terms of inspiration, right, like, we talked about this a little bit earlier, like, it's a period piece and everything, and there are so many references through books and through other movies or, you know, just historically. What, did you sort of dive into any kind of particular research in trying to get the authenticity of the costumes, or did you improvise in any way?

17:25Antoinette MessamAll of that.

17:27Jawad MirOkay.

17:27Antoinette MessamAll of that. I mean, I started researching as soon as I got the script, and I not only myself researching because of the time. We had a short, I mean, that was incredibly short prep for the size of the project. I had to enlist help. I, like I said, my mentor, D… Delphine White, and she passed away like, you know, nine months after, but sh… the last thing she did was help me do research on that project. And while I was on the plane, I was reaching out to Western Costume Reference Library, asking them to research the Romans for me, and so I'd know the different ranks and what the costumes would look like differently. Who's Pontius? Can somebody, you know, like, research that person. Then my assistant, I'm like, "Okay." Let's connect. I get off the plane at this time. Meet me here.

18:28Antoinette MessamLet's, let's knock out the research. Because I basically had a few days before I had to turn around and get on a plane and go to Italy, and I wanted to have a lay of land so I'd know how much I was able to get in Italy, and if I'd have to bring in anything from anywhere else. So researching so I understood what it was, the silhouette I was looking for. Having an idea of, and then getting an idea once I hit the ground and go into the rental houses to see what they had, gives me an idea of how much I have to make, and h… how much, you know, money do we need to do it. So research is in… one of the first things I have to do for so many reasons. One, just to wrap my head around visually what we were doing, and second, where was I going to get this, and could we afford it?

19:27Jawad MirYeah.

19:27Antoinette MessamIn that order.

19:29Jawad MirAnd i… i… in terms of like, you know, making, like actually making something instead of renting it, s… something like that, does that ever, in general, not particularly in this film, does that ever happen on location? A… any way…

19:43Antoinette MessamAbsolutely. Absolutely

19:44Jawad MirAnd how do you s… how do you overcome that, like in terms of time constraints and budget constraints and all that? Because it's, it's challenging being, I…

19:52Antoinette MessamIt is

19:52Jawad Mir... Being on the set myself, I've gone through that, so that's why I'm asking you.

19:57Antoinette MessamIt's challenging, and it's different for each project. This project I was blessed to not only have some of the best rental houses in the world, in Rome, which is where I prepped the movie. I prepped in Rome, and then moved a couple of weeks before camera to Matera.

20:16Antoinette MessamI was lucky to have some of the best cutters and stitchers in the world in Italy, 'cause they can sew.

20:24Jawad MirYeah.

20:24Antoinette MessamAnd, knowing that with the m… time we had, I had to be very specific and concentrate on who I was making for. And because we were starting with stunts and with Benedict, my principal cast, all of their clothes are built, because all of them required multiples. And even as we progressed, and the ones who didn't require multiples but had specific looks, like Mother Mary, you know, Alfie Woodard, her costume was custom. You know, Nicholas Pinnock, his costume, he was Jesus, was m… custom. So as we, as the background was predominantly rented, but I did have to, because I couldn't get enough for the amount of background that I had, 'cause Italy was very busy, I had to have some made offshore in Thailand, and shipped.

21:22Antoinette MessamSo we rented from Spain. So it had to come from multiple places, and at the same time I was building, but I had to prioritize what I was building. I mean, I had a large shop. It started with, I think, four people, two cutters, and then by the time we got to Matera, we were full on production. I had at least six to eight stitchers and two cutters sewing five, six days a week.

21:55Jawad MirWow.

21:56Antoinette MessamYeah.

21:57Jawad MirThat's amazing. Can you recall a, I mean, it's, I think on a set every day is like that, you know, there's always like chaos and there's a lot of stuff, moving parts and everything. Was there an any kind of day that you can recall or certain situation where something took place that wasn't supposed to take place and you had to improvise and time was the issue? Any kind of behind the scenes story would be lovely to hear.

22:23Antoinette MessamWow. Well, he outed me on the live television, I think at the premiere. James McAvoy spoke of a mishap with his costume. And he played Pontius, which with research, Pontius is in white robes, very, you know…

22:45Antoinette Messam... Romanesque, very toga-ish. And it had the royal, I don't, I'm not sure if it's royal, but it had the color, the burgundy, which I think was status, like a senator.

23:00Jawad MirYeah.

23:00Antoinette MessamAnd he didn't wanna wear that. He wanted to wear armor. But I spoke to him Thursday night. I was m… leaving Matera to fly to Rome to fit him Friday, and he was shooting Monday morning in Rome. So there was a unit move over the weekend. So I left Matera with them shooting the scene of John the Baptist, and basically he flew from London and we were to meet in Rome the Friday. And he told me that night before, and it was like 9:00, 10:00 o'clock, that he wanted to wear armor, and first thought is like, "Where am I gonna get armor at short notice?" And to fit him. And, you know, made a few calls. My, background crowd supervisor was already in Rome fitting. I called her and I says, "Do you have any of the mil… y… the uniforms that I can at least bring something so he can see how he looks?"

24:05Antoinette MessamShe's like, "No," she's already fitted them all. So we scrambled and we found something, but even without having had time to do research, I knew it wasn't quite right color-wise, but I just wanted him to try on the armor and see if this is still what he wanted to do once he got it on, 'cause they're heavy. They're not comfortable, right?

24:24Jawad MirYeah.

24:24Antoinette MessamAnd I'm like, "Are you sure you want this, guy? Wait till you put one of these things on, and your legs are gonna be bare and your arms are gonna be bare, and it's cold." But he put it on, and he wanted armor. But then he had a little allergic reaction to it, so he's like, "You know, this one probably was on a horse." I gave him a little half a Benadryl. Went away, he says, "Just make sure that it's not one that anybody's been near horses, 'cause I'm allergic to horses."

24:51Jawad MirOkay.

24:52Antoinette MessamSo we were able to get into a rental house on Saturday, pull some options, and even with just thinking, "Okay. Well, I've got three or four options. One of them will work," I reach out to the first AD, and I says, "You know what? If there's any way you can flip the scenes Monday morning," because what we decided is he would wear the to… the robes in the jail when he speaks to Clarence.

25:22Antoinette MessamAnd when he's with him, when he walks on water, he wanted to be in uniform, which was originally supposed to shoot first. If we could flip the scenes to give me time to fit him in the Roman attire and tweak anything, like shorten the underskirt or, you know, do anything we needed to do to it while he was shooting the scene. So I gave the first AD and the AD department a heads-up, "This is what's going on." I had to tell the producer so everybody's aware. Monday morning…

25:57Antoinette Messam... He tries on the uniform. We... The one he liked, had a massive allergic reaction to. And I'm not just talking he gets itchy nose and red. He goes beet red, and his lips start to swell. Like, he d… everything that you could possibly say could go wrong when somebody's having an allergic reaction was happening to him. We had to get alert production right away. They had to get a doctor, get the doctor down. All of a sudden, my s… my, the trailer he's in is surrounded by every producer and, you know, and I get a call from James, the director, saying, "Just change him. Put him back into the robes." I'm like, "Ch… he doesn't want to." He says, "Get them the EpiPen. Wash the uniform. He wants to wear a uniform." We must have held up camera a couple of hours because they had to get a doctor in there.

26:58Antoinette MessamThere was an ambulance standing by. Give him the pen.

27:02Jawad MirWow.

27:02Antoinette MessamWait for him to subside. And my, and I had to give a, yesterday I had a live IG. I had to give a shout-out to my set crew who handled it. Nobody panicked. His set costumer was in the trailer with him, had him wipe down, wash his face, all of that, hands, everything, go and take all his clothes off, towel down. Doctor came, gave him a pen. We rushed the uniform to wash it and dry it and steam it, everything that we could possibly do to get any residue of horse out of it.

27:45Jawad MirWow.

27:45Antoinette MessamAnd then we shot the scene.

27:49Jawad MirBut tell me something. I mean, I, you know, there's a captain of the ship, and there's the producers and all that stuff. You know, shouldn't it... It... If you're trying to put a costume on that's not written in the script or... I get it. It's, like, a small thing, but sometimes things have a big, you know, cons… changing an outfit like that can result into something that might affect the story. Like, didn't it have to go through the director and the producer or…

28:17Antoinette MessamWell, the director was, at first, he was not keen on it because it wasn't written that way.

28:23Jawad MirRight.

28:23Antoinette MessamBut, James called him. James McAvoy called him, and they spoke about it, and he explained the reasoning behind wanting to wear the Roman armor. He felt it would be more impos… well, you saw the scene.

28:42Jawad MirYeah.

28:42Antoinette MessamHe pranced around, like, you know, in that... He want, he didn't want something that was soft. He wanted that, what that empow… it empowered him, he felt, right? And holding it, you see him holding it while he's talking, and he's going through all the actions and really making it very physical, using the costume for the beats. So I got it. I just wasn't prepared for it, and that's sometimes, in the ninth hour when you have to pull it out. I mean, I found a uniform. He, it's just he happened to be allergic to it.

29:19Jawad MirYeah.

29:19Antoinette MessamAnd the studio had... They didn't, they weren't on set a lot, but for James McAvoy and Benedict Cumberbatch, they were there.

29:29Jawad MirYeah.

29:29Antoinette MessamSo there was a studio exec there, two of the creative producers were there, and our executive producer who managed the movie. So I had four producers outside of the trailer.

29:45Jawad MirWell, James McAvoy is such a great actor, and so I can see his... You know, he really dives into the character. I mean, one of his great performances, which was a shame that not e… didn't even get an Oscar nomination, let alone an Oscar, was the movie Split.

30:00Antoinette MessamYeah.

30:00Jawad MirIf you ever s… he played seven different personalities in that movie.

30:05Antoinette MessamYeah.

30:05Jawad MirBut that, again, a kind of testament to his, who he is as an actor and trying to make, be sure that the right moves are made. So kudos to him, but…

30:15Antoinette MessamWell, he was a…

30:15Jawad MirYeah.

30:16Antoinette MessamHe was adamant. He wasn't, that wasn't even an option. It was just finding the right one.

30:21Jawad MirYeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. What is it that you are working on next, that you're able to discuss?

30:36Antoinette MessamI just finished, I just got back from Australia end of the summer. I was working with the Agbo brothers, and it was their first period film, and, it was interesting because it was a pirate movie written by Frank E. Flowers, who... He wrote One Love, the Bob Marley movie.

31:01Antoinette MessamAnd this was his directorial debut, and he wrote it and directed it. And Priyanka Chopra Jonas… ... Was the lead actress. And, why is his name slipping me? He was in The Boys. That act… the lead actor in The Boys was in there. And…

31:22Jawad MirThe big guy with the beard and the…

31:23Antoinette MessamYeah

31:23Jawad Mir... I know who you're talking about. I know who you're talking about.

31:25Antoinette MessamThe New Zealand. Yeah.

31:26Jawad MirYeah.

31:26Antoinette MessamSorry. My brain.

31:27Jawad MirThat's okay. What's the name of the film?

31:29Antoinette MessamThe Bluff.

31:30Jawad MirThe Bluff. Yeah.

31:31Antoinette MessamYeah.

31:31Jawad MirI'm just looking on IMDb. I'll tell you his name in a second. Karl Urban?

31:36Antoinette MessamYes.

31:36Jawad MirYes.

31:36Antoinette MessamKarl. Karl Urban.

31:38Jawad MirYeah.

31:38Antoinette MessamWe had so many day players, I apologize. But, Karl Urban went head-to-head with, Priyanka, and I also got to work with, I… i… Imez Carlos Jun… He's in the... It's shot in New Zealand as well. It's sort of like the Ring of Towers. Is that it, the Ring? That fantasy series where he plays the, another…

32:12Jawad MirOh, the H… Hobbit you're talking about?

32:14Antoinette MessamY… yeah, that one, with the hobbits and all of them. He's in that series, and he was… Yes, Imez Crews. He was really great to work with. Lots of... I love these movies where you have the leads, but then you have these characters that, play smaller parts, but their character is so interesting and interesting to dress, where you really get to, play. Sometimes with the, as you said, with the, you know, stars, there's a lot of input sometimes in what their costume is, but with these, you know, smaller roles that have great character actors who talented, especially when I worked on The Book of Clarence and Lift with, Kevin Hart. Some of these actors who came in for a few days who've done the Game of Thrones and done all these really great projects in…

33:09Antoinette Messam... Europe, and they just bring their A game to the, you know, to the fitting. It's like, ooh, you're sharing with me. I'm learning something.

33:18Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's, it's a bag of mixed things, right? Like, where you have, I think it's important to learn, obviously, from the pros, but sometimes working with, you know, not necessarily smaller actors, but just smaller roles, i… it's, it's, it's a nice balance between them two. Like, you're just, you know, you're trying to get your expressive expression out there, as opposed to being, you know, sort of star power and whatnot, which sometimes it can work, but sometimes it can backfire too, I think.

33:52Antoinette MessamYeah. And it's interesting too with the star power. I mean, with this movie, because so few of the actors had done this genre before…

34:01Jawad MirYeah

34:01Antoinette Messam... I think a lot of them were coming with ho… h… a… wanting me to lead them. I mean, Benedict showed up and basically walked into his costume, which was fantastic. I think that was the most aha moment I had. I think my heart was thumping for days until he got there and literally put it on. But because he came so late and was going to camera very shortly af… like, the next day, it had to be camera ready for him. So everybody's just, like, hoping…

34:32Jawad MirYeah

34:32Antoinette Messam... Praying everything would be great, and it turned out to be perfect. So…

34:37Jawad MirThat's awesome

34:37Antoinette Messam... I'm very happy with that costume.

34:39Jawad MirThat's really cool. Well, I'm really looking forward to, the film that you just finished, the Bluff.

34:45Antoinette MessamBluff. Yeah.

34:47Jawad MirI think it... Is it probably next year, right? If you finished it since the summer, yeah.

34:50Antoinette MessamYeah. I would be, I would be surprised any, like, maybe s… second or third…

34:55Jawad MirSummer next year. Yeah.

34:56Antoinette MessamYeah. It's, it's a lot of action. I mean, it's Agbo brothers. Basically take, you know, extraction and combine it with a period movie, you know, and they had a baby. So lots of, militant period s… you know, people in it. Yeah.

35:18Jawad MirThat's awesome. That's really cool. Well…

35:20Antoinette MessamLots of sword fight

35:21Jawad Mir... You know, well, there was a Pirates of the Caribbean that was coming out a lot of time, and it's very successful, and, I don't think they'll make an, I don't think they will, maybe they'll do a remake down the road with a brand new star cast. But, I think that genre is sort of, it's been a while since there's been, like, sword fight, like, swashbuckling stuff like Mask of Zorro…

35:43Antoinette MessamYeah

35:43Jawad Mir... And Pirates of the Caribbean. So, hopefully that market is something that this movie taps into and does well.

35:50Antoinette MessamI think it might, but it's a little different. It's later. It's about…

35:56Jawad MirI know, I know. Yeah. Yeah

35:57Antoinette Messam... A little later than the, you know, Pirates of the Caribbean, and one of the things that they didn't want it to look like was Pirates of the Caribbean.

36:06Jawad MirWas Pirates of the Caribbean.

36:07Antoinette MessamYeah.

36:08Jawad MirBut I'm talking about swashbuckling and swords, and I think, you know, people enjoy that as a form of entertainment. I mean, there's a whole sports out there for that too, so, But as long as a good movie, which I'm hoping it is, you know, the story and everything, so looking forward to that.

36:24Antoinette MessamWell, I hope it will have more better luck than The Book of Clarence. You know? I think that timing was bad when it came out. I don't think it came out at a good time, right in the, you know, beginning of the year when… All of the four-year consideration movies are, everybody's…

36:44Antoinette Messam... Watching, excited to see what's gonna be Oscar nominated. And, it's interesting, I don't know if you knew this, but Book of Clarence and Lift came out on the same day. So I did both of those… ... Movies in 2022, and they both came out January 12th, 2024 on the same day.

37:03Jawad MirWow. Wow. No, it… you know, a lot of times, I mean, you know it too, it's, like, all about the ti… you could make a great movie and it just may not be released, or…

37:15Antoinette MessamYeah

37:15Jawad Mir... It may not, on a, at the right time, may not have a good marketing behind it.

37:19Antoinette MessamOh.

37:19Jawad MirI mean, there are so many variables, right? And sometimes, for the lack of better n… word, not so great movies do so well because the timing was right, so.

37:28Antoinette MessamRight. We won't call any names.

37:30Jawad MirYes. I… I don't wanna do that, because nobody wants to make a bad movie. It just happens…... For many reasons, as y… as you know, and everything. Well, thank you so much, for your time, and w…

37:43Antoinette MessamThank you

37:43Jawad Mir... Doing the amazing work that you did on Book of Clarence. Really hope people go check it out. And we just live in a time where these movies like Book of Clarence and the other one that I was ta… talking to you about, exhibiting, forgiveness, if th… these movies had come out in the '90s or the early 2000s when the, when the platforms weren't there and the market was different, they, you know, they would do, people would talk about them even if they didn't do well, because that's just something like you discuss over, you know, water cooler discussion at work and stuff. But it is the way it is now.

38:14Antoinette MessamYes, especially when half the water coolers are working from home. You know?

38:18Jawad MirYes, that's a big part too, right?

38:20Antoinette MessamYeah.

38:20Jawad MirYou're right, you're right. Well, hopefully it will do better, and, thank you again for working, and thank you for speaking to me about that. I really appreciate it. Hopefully, we'll run into in Toronto maybe sometime whenever you're back.

38:31Antoinette MessamYeah, TIFF. Let's get together at TIFF. I always try to, if I'm not working, to make it home for the International Film Festival, Toronto International Film Festival. I miss it.

38:41Jawad MirYeah. Let me know. I was there this year after a long time. I hadn't been there for a long time. And it was, it was such a great thing, because being in the industry, watching movies, I saw like 19 or 20 movies in six days.

38:56Antoinette MessamWow.

38:57Jawad MirIt was, I mean, I was toasted by the end, but it was just that experience…

39:01Antoinette MessamYeah

39:01Jawad Mir... Of being around people who love movies, not necessarily directors and producers, but just a… audience as well. It's a great feeling, and hopefully we can catch TIFF next year.

39:11Antoinette MessamOkay.

39:11Jawad MirAll right.

39:11Antoinette MessamWell, thank you.

39:13Jawad MirThank you so much.

39:14Antoinette MessamAnd I will, look forward to seeing this when it's released. Bye.

39:17Jawad MirAll right. Take care. Bye-bye.