'Dead Poets Society', Cinematographer, John Seale

0:08Jawad MirAnd I think I see some, nice, awards and the film magazine in the background.

0:14John SealeOh, have they snuck in, have they? Ah, yeah. Couple do.

0:20Jawad MirHow are your holidays?

0:22John SealeVery good. Very good. We had a rather wet time, but it was, and a quiet time as well. It seems that all of our family started to scarper, you know? Left, right, and center out of Sydney, and, doing their own thing. So we were pretty quiet, but we didn't mind that at all.

0:43Jawad MirThat's good. I'm glad to hear that. That's fantastic.

0:47John SealeYeah.

0:47Jawad MirGood stuff. Well, good to have you back again one more time. Really excited to chat about Dead Poets Society.

0:55John SealeYeah.

0:55Jawad MirYou know, and we've sort of talked about it a few times in earlier episodes, but, you know, I always... It's funny, I've always thought Jurassic Park was the film that inspired me to be who I am today, you know, as a film director, but I think... I'm not sure if I saw Dead Poets Society before Jurassic Park or after, but I think that had a big hand in it in terms of the premise of arts versus, you know, the traditional way of studying. And it's, it's such an incredible film at all levels, from performances to cinematography to music to direction. And, you know, late, great Robin Williams of…

1:38John SealeYeah

1:38Jawad Mir... O Captain, My Captain.

1:40John SealeYeah. I think, yes, I agree totally. I think, I, really that everybody who worked on it, from crew to talent, and even in post-production, putting it all together, weren't affected by it. I think it's a very powerful comment, but beautifully realistic about it all. And I think over the years it's almost one of the films that people keep relating to, and they say, "Oh, well you did Dead Poets Society." And I said, "Well, I did a little bit. I tried to help the best," you know? But it affected them, and, I just, I lo… I love it for that, and I think that, you know, Peter's interpretation of Tom Schulman's fantastic writing in the beginning, as you know, directors had, always try to search the script that they've got, and search for, the way of doing it that's got lovely deep meanings that could extend whatever the written word is, visually or with sound or music.

2:59John SealeAnd we went through it, I remember, in pre-production and, the office going crazy because Peter was in such demand for m… a million questions. As you know, wardrobe, makeup, hair, locations, what are we gonna do? And he'd say, "No." He'd say, "For this week, from 8:00 AM to 12 midday, Johnny and I are gonna go through the script." And we read it and read it and read it, and any thoughts... Peter is, as you know, is like that. He searches everybody's brain, not just the actors, but technicians and everybody. Everybody who's involved in his film, in a way, he searches their brains for ideas, for thoughts, for little motivational ideas, inspirations that he might get. And, but that whole week, which drove the office mad, we went through it, and in the end it was a lovely thing where on the last day he said, "You know, Tom Schulman's script's fantastic.

4:08John SealeLet's go shoot it." And l… we literally didn't, he didn't reassemble or rewrite anything. Later, of course, working with the actors, as always, there were some lovely inputs from the actors, which were readily accepted by Peter, as always. And, some of them we reshot quickly. And so that, I think, was a lovely complement to Tom Schulman for his wonderful writing and original concept of a script, to Peter's ability to absorb all of the ideas from there, maintain that balance of writing, and with the actors then mature it into the film that it ended up being. So I think it's lovely complements all round, really.

5:01Jawad MirYeah. And it's interesting that you worked back to back on two of the most inspiring and meaningful, and obviously successful, films critically and commercially, Dead Poets Society and the year before that, Rain Man. Right? Am I, am I correct in s… assuming that?

5:23John SealeYeah.

5:24Jawad MirYeah. And having those two films, not that they're similar, but in terms of just, you know, the story, and they were both up for Oscars, like a lot of Oscars. I don't know if they won. I'm sure they did win some, but I don't know which one. It's been a whi… while since I've sort of kept track of that. But having to work on things like that, the meaningful projects, not that the other ones are not, but, you know, such depth to it, like English poetry, like William Wordsworth, John Keats. I mean, I remember w… I was in grade 11 or 12 English at the time when I probably saw it, and that's when I was learning about all these great poets as well. Had you... Did you know, as a cinematographer… W… were you familiar with their work, or if not, did you study their work just to understand the storytelling from the perspective of a cinematographer?

6:19John SealeVery interesting question. I always found in the earlier days working with Peter in the Australian renaissance of film as it came back into Australia, we started making films. The ones that I was involved with mainly as a camera operator in those earlier days, and I... Maybe it's because of that I grew to love watching actors strut their stuff. I loved listening to the director, discussing the moment for that shot w… within that entire, screenplay, how it fitted in and, you know, the modulation of it. I loved listening to all that. I don't know why. I never wanted to be an actor and, I'm terrified of being in front of cameras actually. But, I loved watching and analyzing...

7:22John SealeL… well, not analyzing, but listening to the director's, instructions to an actor who then would interpret that. And as the camera operator, I felt that I was in there knowing and hoping I'm realizing, as much of the emotion the director wants out of the actor, I felt should come out of, should come out of the camera, and I grew to love that. And I was so fortunate through my life to, actually end up working with some of the great actors of that whole era, and being able to watch them strut their stuff. And I hope that what I'd learnt from that was that I could help a little bit, in some way or form. And when I became, a lighting cameraman, I shifted across finally and became lighting.

8:25John SealeI couldn't give up operating. I had to keep operating. It caused a bit of a stir, internationally because some, countries, particularly America at that time, didn't accept, the director of photography doing their own operating. There were unions involved and whatnot. And we ran into that trouble on Dead Poets Society. So by selection of scripts or that I was offered, came down to choosing a script like Rain Man, Dustin Hoffman, who wouldn't go to work with him and watch him strut his stuff? Who wouldn't do that? But, so I did that film and I loved doing that. I watched, I watched, I th… I think two actors, interpreting the written screenplay and bringing it to life as two characters. I remember Dustin saying to me a week before, we used… he used to hover around the office all the time and I'd say, "You don't have to be here, Dustin.

9:31John SealeYou go home and play tennis or talk to your agent or something." And he'd say, "No, I love it. I love all this bullshit that you people talk in pre-production. I love listening to that." And I thought, "Isn't that funny?" 'Cause I love watching the actors strut their stuff. And then, you know, so there was... So a… after that, you know, I... We did that film and I loved watching those two top actors just getting together and making the film and watching, you know, the whole thing develop. Then to be asked to do Dead Poets was no issue in that. I mean, Peter Weir, and doing a film, any film with Peter was you always said yes. So I did that, and it w… again, was a lovely example of a beautifully written script, interpreted by Peter and honed by, with the actors, to create the film that was created.

10:39John SealeSo I think it's basically the answer to that is I just, I love, watching the relationship of actors to directors, say, to a written script and how they interpret that, and how they present that in front of the cameras. And maybe I hope I helped in some way with the camera, in various technical ways maybe. I know that, Dead Poets, we shot it very quickly. We did a lot of... I was on one camera then too, which, even though in Rain Man I found multiple cameras, somehow Dead Poets was a single camera coverage. To do that, we had to move very quickly, and I was operating. The film was very funny. The film before with Peter, we had to use an operator, and to be honest, that upset Peter immensely because I had been operating for Peter in Australia with the great Russell Boyd as DP and, we got on well there, and he was asking me to light, and I couldn't operate.

11:46John SealeAnd, so with Dead Poets Society, we found a camera operator in the area that had a broken leg and he couldn't work. So we booked him up, and the union agreed, and we booked him up, and because he wasn't getting work and he was a bit tight, we offered to take him on, and left him in the wheelchair, and I did the operating. So we got round the union back then, in that…

12:13Jawad MirThat is awesome

12:14John SealeYeah, so I was, I was able to operate for Peter. So the combination, I think, of lighting and operating I always found was an incredible help in a way to actors. That, I was close enough because I was the operator to them…

12:32John Seale... To be able to talk to them as a technician in a way, and as the lighting cameraman I could help them there. And I found that going as fast as possible helped everybody, obviously. Shooting as fast as possible. And it certainly I think helped actors stay in character, was one of the main things I found through life, that they often, mentioned at the end was that they loved the speed because it kept them in character. And I think with those boys, most of them were reasonably inexperienced when they started.

13:12John SealeAnd here was this amazing director, who took them in and made them comfortable, and made them feel that, you know, really it's not a movie we're shooting, we're just recording a li… a lifetime of these boys, a life of these boys in that, a school community. And he kept them very comfortable, and I hope that my lighting and operating and being, aware of actors' problems in front of a camera maybe by not being too experienced or the clapper board upsetting them, things like that I could help keep it as comfortable as possible, was always, up front with me and with the crew. I'd, I'd always try and say to the crew, "No noise.

14:12John SealeWe're, we're lighting. Don't want any noise or yelling. Just I'll quietly tell you what I want and then, you know, qui… please go off and do it as quietly as you can." Keep the actors in the, in the realm of the ac… reality of the set, which is representing the script. Because to take them out of that and create this noisy lighting film set feel often mentally can take them out of their mode of character, and I didn't want that. I wanted them to, you know, try and help them stay in character and help them stay l… in a high performance zone that Peter was to… getting from them as much as possible by reducing the impact of filmmaking process. So I think all of that was, basically from the early days of just loving watching actors go from a, that person in reality to this character, and realizing that we can help a lot.

15:16Jawad MirYeah. I think it was Quentin Tarantino, and I could be wrong, who I heard saying that when your actors come on the set the first time do not tell them what to do, because they may bring something that you may not have seen or even thought about, and after that you can tell them what to do, you know, if that's something that you still want. Because actors, just like anybody else, like, you know, a cinematographer or a set designer or a costume designer, they will have their perspective and they will wanna bring that in, and it's good to g… hear that because you just never know what they might bring to the table as opposed to you telling them all the time what to do.

15:59John SealeYeah. And it was interesting that last week going through the DVD and, excerpts of the actors talking, and the boys did have a lot of that, and they, their contribution, to the film by becoming the character and being, as one said, bold enough to say, "I wouldn't say that," is a very…

16:23Jawad MirYeah

16:23John Seale... Major thing to say to a director. And, I think that Peter's wonderful, approach to them as performers, and keeping them as comfortable as possible enabled them to be able to say, "I don't think I'd say that." "I'd rather not say it," or whatever they, approach they had to Peter, you know, even to an actor say… the father saying, "I wasn't happy with, the approach that I gave the performance yesterday." So Peter said, "No problem. Let's reshoot it."

17:08Jawad MirOh, wow.

17:08John SealeAnd so we qu… we quickly reshot it. So as a cameraman I felt that the essence of speed is there to say, "Oh, you wanna reshoot that scene? That was from yesterday. Okay, we had that," and go to the capper and say quietly, "Remember the scene yesterday we did? We're doing it again." "What for? What for?" I say, "Don't worry about well, why. No, we're doing it again right now. Back light up there, remember? A little soft fill," whatever. The brain was still acting. So that was able to be put together very quickly. So once again I was, I always hoped that the speed would keep the actor in the performance that they wanted to present. And, I think in films like Rain Man, like Dead Poets Society, those lovely films that, are where performance counts heavily rather than action or, you know, some sort of form of escape, imagery…

18:10Jawad MirRight

18:11John Seale... That doesn't... You know, that lovely sheer good words, good performance, to make a good film is, wonderful to help make

18:24Jawad MirYeah. It's interesting you mentioned that everything was on a go style, like, you know, very quick so the char… actors stayed in their characters. And, you know, two points, one being that even I have found, or anybody else I've talked to, like, when you are limited with resources, and I think you and I have talked about it too, or when you're in doing things quick, you don't second-guess yourself, right? Like, you may make mistakes here and there, but you're just on that speedboat and you're going. But what's interesting, the fact that you said that the film was shot in such a poetic way because it was a poetic film and, you know, with very mellow push-ins and pull-outs. And, you know, the three shots that come to my mind when I think of Dead Poets Society are three scenes, was Seize The Day, and the way that was shot, you know, with the students looking in to this, all the photographs and Robin Williams leaning in, and then obviously Cap… Captain, Oh My Captain at the end.

19:29Jawad MirAnd then the poetry scene where the, I'm assuming it was a steady cam where it goes around Ethan Hawke, and the timing of that and the synergy of that and the cuts of that was just so beautiful to watch. And, you know, sometimes when you're watching a camera going really fast, you're like, "Oh, that's cool." But because that the words in the script were so powerful that remained the prominent thing as opposed to the shot overtaking the…

19:57John SealeYeah

19:57Jawad Mir... Actual script.

19:59John SealeYeah. Yeah. Peter was very, on that film, was very much, in a way, shooting on the balls of his feet. He was very often... We were shooting so fast, he warned me in pre-production. He said, "Johnny, I know we're not slow." You know, from Australian training where we had l… sm… low budgets, short schedules, we had to finish films in that time. There was no money to go over. So it was sort of instilled in us both actually to maintain, the schedule and still make the film that Peter wanted to make. And, he said, "I know we're not slow," but he said, "I might have to go re… very quickly." if I remember, he said, "I've got eight stories to tell. I've got seven boys and a girl, and I need in the editing room to have the material to play with that, and so I have to get the material."

21:02John SealeI said, "Peter, let's go. Let's go." And I think it was 20 one-and-a-half setups a day average on a single camera.

21:11Jawad MirWow.

21:11John SealeAnd all of that was within the normal time. We didn't go…

21:15Jawad MirYeah

21:15John Seale... Over the time, if I remember too much. But a lot of it was in situ, a phone call on Christmas Day, I think it was. We're all still camped down in, Delaware and, shooting over Christmas. It all stayed there. A phone call, oh, I think it was Christmas Day or something, "Johnny, what about the crew? It's snowing." And I said, "It is, Peter. I think we'll be right. I'll ring around." And I quickly rang them all, and of course they're all huddled around their fire. And, but they all agreed, "Let's go. Let's go make the movie."

21:55Jawad MirYeah.

21:55John SealeAnd, they were all out there in the middle of the Christmas break, and we ma… and we shot the movie 'cause it snowed. And it was that sort of lovely, camaraderie we had with all the crew, "Let's go make this movie," you know, and with the actors. And it... To me, that's a very lovely way to make movies. And somehow…

22:19Jawad MirYeah

22:20John Seale... As you, have said, Jawed, that energy of speed keeps the juices running for actors, directors. Like, "Try that. Do this. What about if... What if... "

22:36Jawad MirYeah.

22:36John SealeYou know? And that's all, I think, a lovely part and parcel of making those kind of films. Dropping dialogue. If an actor says, "I'm having trouble with that line," it's,.. And I remember Peter would say, "Well, don't say it. Find something else. Go. Keep going without it."

22:54John SealeAnd giving them that chance because, you know, it can go into the editing room, and it can be used or it can be cut out. It's, it's... You've gotta have the material to be able to play, for an editor to be able to play with the emotions of that, of the film really.

23:16Jawad MirYeah. And I'm so glad that you guys decided to go out and shoot in snow because that's... You know, in the context of the film, it was such a juxtap… you know, just a, like, a con… opposite and juxtaposition of what was going on. It looked visually beautiful, but with the scene that was taking place was completely different, and it really worked very magically.

23:38John SealeYeah. Yeah. And I think that the boys queried it maybe. Like, "But it's in the bathroom." "But, you know, wouldn't you go out into the snow?" And, "Well, I suppose I might." "Let's go," you know. And we did do three or four takes. We did lose the snow, and I quickly got the boys to check the weather forecast, and they said snow clearing in our area. And I said to Peter, "Peter, the snow's gonna clear," and he said, "Quick, let's go, let's go. Let's try and get it before it stops," and it did stop. And I forget how it went now, but I think we had a s… the special effects boys had snow available in their truck or so… but they'd taken off for another location…

24:25Jawad MirSomething like that. We had to ring them and say, "Get back. Get back. Bring the snow back," and we put fake snow in to finish the scene, something like that. But all of that still worked and still made the film, so all of that b… makes it very exciting for us.

24:42John SealeYeah. Was, the final scene, O Captain, My Captain, was that filmed in the beginning, middle, or the end of the schedule, production schedule?

24:53Jawad MirIt was filmed at the end.

24:54John SealeDo you remember?

24:55Jawad MirOkay

24:56John Seale... But the h… the positions of the boys on the table standing, was established in pre-production. We spent…

25:07Jawad MirOkay

25:07John Seale... Quite a, quite a lot of time, half a day, deciding where they were when they were standing on the table so the camera could place them and see them placed, conveniently amongst each other to suit the dialogue or the timing of who was gonna stand and who wasn't. Framing for, Dylan, who didn't stand, made the decision through legs so that there was a feeling that the others are there, we found. And then that gave us basically the position of the boys in the classroom so that when they sat down, that was their position in the classroom so that the continuity would, for the final shot, would be cemented…

25:57Jawad MirYeah

25:57John Seale... And it wouldn't, cause any problems. So all of that was worked out in pre-production. The film unraveled the performances and the emotion so that by the end of the film, the boys knew the whole story. So to stand at Captain, My Captain, was a done deal as to positions and emotion. And the only thing we did do on Ethan Hawke and the other boys was to cheat the cross light a little bit so that there was light and shade on the…

26:37John Seale... On his face. So there was the quandary in, represented in light, of the brightness of one side and the other side, a darkness of, is he doing the right thing? Am I correct? Am I wrong? So there was a little visual, comparison there as well.

26:57Jawad MirYeah. It's interesting you talk about that scene, the way you shot that scene, the final scene, Captain, O My Captain, because when you're looking at it from, the perspective of pr… the Professor John Williams character, Mr. Keats, I've seen that... I've, I've s… watched that scene so many times trying to understand how the heck did you guys put everybody together, and making sure that everybody else is coming in the shot accordingly too. And now it makes so much sense that it was done in pre-production, because to be able to…

27:32John SealeYeah

27:32Jawad Mir... To be able to organize all that…

27:35John SealeYeah

27:35Jawad Mir... Is not something that you can possibly do on the day of or, you know, on the, during the production at least.

27:42John SealeNo, I fully agree. And I think that's where, with, Peter and my training from Australia, you shoot as much in your mind in pre-production as you can so that when you, when you've got cameras rolling, you got all those people involved, a lot of money, but also the time. I mean, to try and work that out on set would me… would have meant that the seating in their room, wherever they... You know, if you hadn't c… hadn't started from the end and worked back, it would've meant that there'd be confusion at the end as to where people…

28:22Jawad MirYeah, of course

28:22John Seale... You'd have to compromise maybe.

28:25Jawad MirYeah

28:25John Seale... Whereas being able to think, for Peter to say, "I'm gonna work that out in pre-production, and then that'll ce… cement where they sit during the whole classroom. Then we'll make the classroom work around that seating arrangement," and that's why the final scene is the power, and that's where the power…

28:46Jawad MirYeah

28:46John Seale... Of the film is, really.

28:49Jawad MirYeah. And I said John Ke… Mr… Mr. Keats, it's actually Mr. Keating. But the reason I asked you the question about Captain, O My Captain, where it was shot in terms of the production schedule, because it is such a powerful scene. It's one of those scenes that you can just watch on its own and you will still get it. Like, it will hit you at, you know, to the deepest core. As the crew was filming this, as they filmed the entire film from the beginning to end or relatively to the end, was that scene impactful in terms of the story arc and just the whole performances on yourself, on the crew, the meaning and the power of that scene?

29:33John SealeAbsolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I've wor… worked with Peter in Australia as camera operator on Gallipoli, and he always plays music, and it'll be a music chosen for that scene. And in asking him 100 years ago, why the music, he said, "It gives the actors the pace of the scene that I need, at the pace, how fast or slow they should play." And Harrison Ford on Witness loved it, because it did exactly that. He would play it very loudly, right up until roll cameras… Clapper board on. Clapper board would go on, and just before action he'd turn it off and leave it ringing in the actors' ears, the pace, the music.

30:41John SealeAnd so the... He had that with the boys the whole time. And so whilst we were watching dailies, he would play the same music in the l… the dailies theater. And I don't know, on Gallipoli I saw the whole shooting team practically in tears as the boys went over the bunker and getting shot to pieces. Crew in tears. At one stage I had this lovely gaffer, in from Los Angeles, Norm. And Norm was a seasoned gaffer. You know, he was about the same age, but, was an LA gaffer and a lovely guy. Very excited. He did Rain Man and came across on the Dead Poets Society. And we were watching, I think it was that scene, and I'm thinking... Yes, it was because I remember when we, when we lit Ethan heavily cross-lighting him, Norm was a little worried about how dark it was on the field side.

31:50John SealeAnd I said, "No, don't worry, Norm. Don't worry. The whole thing is the yin and the yang. It's the, it's the cross light that we need, and we need the contrast of it." "Oh, okay." And he was, he has got a little worried about it. But in the dailies, I'm sitting there watching it, and I looked at it and I thought, "No, that's all right. That looks, that looks..." And I turned around to Norm to say, "Norm, that looks good," and he's in tears. And I said, the music's playing, the boys are going up there, and I said, "Norm, you're a seasoned Los Angeles gaffer. You're not allowed to cry." He's like, "I can't help it." He said, "Look, I can't help it." So yes, it's a very emotional time, and Peter created that with his music, which unashamedly was The Mission that we were listening to. And I did hear later that Maurice Jarre had a heck of a time trying to find music that had the same power in the beat because that was the timing for the boys to climb up…

32:59Jawad MirYeah

32:59John Seale... Was the, you know, the Mission's dum, da, dum. And that was their climbing pace, and he had to find another, make another piece of music, which he did beautifully.

33:13Jawad MirYeah. It, John, I mean, I miss those kind of movies, the music. I mean, even another film that came out around the same time, which you weren't involved in it. It was Scent of a Woman. You know, similar kind of approach. They had, like, with Al Pacino and Chris O'Donnell, directed by Martin Brest, I think. But yeah, I mean, those kind of things, those kind of powerful scenes which are just so simple, but they're executed so brilliantly that they make any, you know, visual effects movie or, you know, with hundreds of millions of dollars of budget go in, into the tank. Like, it's just, it's just, again, I mean, we can talk about this all the time, but they're just so beautifully done and craftily done. I mean, I can, I can... You know, as you were talking about the music, literally, and that's how powerful Peter's choice was. I'm envisioning them climbing on the desk and the music building up, and Robin W… you know, Robin Williams' character, Mr.

34:14Jawad MirKeating, looking at the students, and the students have their hands in front of them. Like, it's just such a visual scene. And, you know, kudos to you to creating such a simple yet powerful imagery in that film.

34:28John SealeAnd w… and the lo… the wonderfully beautiful Robin Williams, was always there on the set. He didn't just wander off and go to his motor home and ring his agent. He w… he stayed on the set a lot just watching and listening, to how the boys were being directed and recorded, so that he was always part of the film, not just a sort of somebody who came and went to do their scenes. He was always there. Very like, Dustin Hoffman on Rain Man, who came into, you know, pre-production and loved watching us all, you know, trying to do, trying to get it together. But they're the kind of actors that, you know, they're just so vibrant and in a way, that's why I've, I've really loved over the years doing films such as that get, I can get involved with, wonderful actors.

35:31John SealeAnd it's like George Miller's Lorenzo's Oil, you know? That's another with characters that are so deeply etched, as characters that to try and help them stay in that part, in the role, in the character

35:48Jawad MirYeah

35:49John Seale... And watching them is just amazing.

35:52Jawad MirYeah. It's so true. And what's interesting is, I mean, I was thinking about this the other day, so Robin Williams had come into a lot of films before Dead Poets Society, but those are all the films as… aside from Good Morning Vietnam, which I think came out in 1987. Like I... Most of us haven't heard of the other films. So that was, like, a comedic role. Then his next major was Dead Poets Society. You know, to go from that to this, then I think he did Awakenings, and after that, Mrs. Doubtfire, Aladdin. Like, to have that kind of…... Skill set where you can go from crazy lunatic physical comedy and, you know, the jokes to something so deep and profound, which unfortunately kind of came across in his passing almost 10 years ago now. You know, what was working like with Robin Williams in terms of on the set?

36:53Jawad MirWas he ever comical? Like, was he, when the, when the things were not, the cameras were not rolling, was he doing his comic routine in any s… way?

37:01John SealeHe was. He just had to make people laugh. He loved people laughing, and he would suddenly start into something, and it'd be something nothing, but it would be hilarious. And Peter used to sit there and I remember he used to la… you know, laugh along with him, and he'd give him eight and a half minutes and then Peter would quietly say, "Thank you, Robin, but we need to get back to work." And Robin would be, "Yes. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Sorry, sir. Yes, sir." And he'd go and sit in the corner and listen and watch while we recorded then the scenes that, we were there for. So I think for any director, maybe he was a bit of a handful, and as you could see in the film, Peter let him go with the, with the little anecdote, from John Wayne about the sword, and mimicking John Wayne so brilliantly.

38:04John SealeI mean, he let him go on that, and he put it in the film and just gave it a little touch of the Robin Williams brilliance of comedy, of humor, and put it in the film as though that character did have a lovely sense of humor underneath this wonderful, ability to get the best out of, out of the boys and the best out of life. But still had a, had a lovely sense of humor without letting it go to the point where it was, "Ah, it was just another Robin Williams film." It wasn't.

38:38Jawad MirYeah.

38:39John SealeIt was a g… a Keating film and he was Keating. He just had a, possibly a nice sense of humor.

38:49Jawad MirYeah, and it's, it's so sad that, you know, when he, when he passed away, I saw Dead… I saw Dead Poets Society again, and then I saw the last scene over and over again. And obviously, you know, you start thinking about things in a different way once a certain event happens. That last scene or the l… one of the last shots where he's just looking up at the boys with his, you know, calmness and his smile, but there was this deep sorrow inside that you could see…

39:21John SealeYeah

39:21Jawad Mir... Through his eyes.

39:22John SealeYeah.

39:22Jawad MirAnd I just f… and I just felt, and again, like, because of what happened, you know, you're sort of inclined to think like that. I wonder if he was going through something at that time, even though that was, like, you know, 24, 5 years ago, because you could see something in his eyes. And whether that was acting, which I'm sure it was, but just something else was there. And I've, I've seen that in all of his performance. You look at Mrs. Doubtfire, you look at, what was that movie? Good Will Hunting. In a whole lots of stuff.

39:54John SealeVery possibly. I mean, I believe from what I read and heard was that he had ups and downs, so, you know, through his life. So m… maybe, yes, maybe possibly there's something in there. A… and maybe, too, it gave him the depth of that emotion at that moment, to be able to draw on, sadly.

40:20Jawad MirYeah. And it's incredible to see Ethan Hawke have his career, and now his daughter, I don't know if you've seen his daughter's performance in one of... I don't know which season it was that she came in Stranger Things, season three, I think, or two. But yeah, she's as talented as him, in terms of doing what she does and, you know, following her dad's footstep.

40:44John SealeOh, great.

40:44Jawad MirBecause he was, he was fabulous in that movie. Ethan Hawke was just absolutely fabulous in Dead Poets Society.

40:52John SealeIt was very interesting. The boys were very interesting. I know, too, that, the youngest one, I think Dylan was 17, and I think Gale was 29. So there's a heck of a, an age difference between all the boys. But, you know, Peter's method of pre-production and getting them down into, Delaware early, two weeks early, and putting them together as though they had been in school together for a couple of years rather than just gathering to make a movie, paid dividends all the way, that they knew each other. They started to sort each other out. And, I think that's all a wonderful part of, Peter's ability as a director, incredible ability as a director to be able human... T… to be able to understand human nature. And that's not only with the actors. It's with crew as well, that, he had a wonderful understanding, on how to get the best out of them in a way, which

42:00Jawad MirYeah

42:01John Seale... Which was, you know, quite a privilege to be able to be asked to work and help him make films.

42:11Jawad MirYeah. To wrap things up, John, you know, the film ended up winning, I think, according to Google at least, may… you obviously know better, Best Director, Best Picture, Best Actor, Best Original Screenplay, and rightfully so. Do you remember the first time, whether it was through a screening, if they had test screenings at the time, or even if it was just a…... Premiere or public screening where you saw the film and you obviously feeling the way you did, most likely very emotional, but you heard the gasps or the laughs around you by people. Do you remember that experience?

42:55John SealeOh, not really, Joe. It's a long time ago.

42:58Jawad MirOkay.

42:59John SealeAnd I got involved in it obviously in post-production to do the grade, the release print grade. One of the lovely things about the movie too is that it was, on film, and it was a time when you a… as the director of photography, you were, all the way to the end, all the way to the, to the s… the, theater that was screening it. It was your photography that was involved with it, and I think that was, to me it was a lovely era of working with Peter, working with wonderful actors, young and old. Working very close with those actors, as a director of photography and the camera operator, watching them through the camera, you know?

44:00John SealeAnd a lot of, lot of things happened over the years, not with Peter, but y… you know, when you're watching actors through a camera, you're actually watching, as a mentor of mine in the very early days told me, you're actually watching a movie. Y… through that viewfinder with a blackout, and just a little image at the end, that's a, that's a screen, and it's a movie screen. And, you're actually watching the performances. And there's a lot of things I felt that, were gained back then because of that have been…

44:45John Seale... A little lost now because of possibly, the new digital revolution has got a blanketing of every… everybody's watching it and every, on little screens all over the film sets. And it's, it's a different era. It's a very fascinating era, I've got to say. It's, but it's one that I'm bailing out of at this stage. And I, you know, I suppose I'm, my reminiscing is that, there were great days. I mean, Peter wasn't watching, a monitor on Dead Poets. Peter would often be standing where the next shot…

45:26John Seale... Would be, and he would, because we did take one and print so many times, that, you had to have d… damn good reason to want another take. 'Cause of the speed, we have to keep the speed up, move on to the next shot.

45:45Jawad MirYeah.

45:45John SealeAnd I would be with Norm, the gaffer, I would be pre-lighting the reverse. While we were fussing there, the boys would be quietly putting things in there, ready to quickly turn the camera around and try and get the reverse in four minutes so that the actors all stayed on set, stayed in character, stayed in, performance. And that speed was all part and parcel of being able to be in control, really, of the total imaging of the, of the film. And it's an era that's gone, in a way, because so many people now can step up and say, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. There's a problem in the background there. We've got to go again." You know, or this or that.

46:30Jawad MirYeah.

46:30John SealeAnd I think as the operator, I learnt very early in the piece to listen to the way the director said, "Cut." And if it was a nice sort of a lovely, "Cut," I knew they probably had the performance. Then I had to analyze a little bump in the middle or this or that, a little problem there, and, oh gosh, that didn't work too well. But director got the performance. So then I would say, "Okay, great." I'd say, and then he'd say, "How was it for you?" Because they always went to the operator. "How was it for you?" And I'd have to say, "Great. It was fantastic," with as much enthusiasm as they'd said cut. But if their enthusiasm in cut wasn't there, I'd find…

47:18Jawad MirYeah

47:18John Seale... A problem to help them along, maybe. And things like that I thought, I thought were a very satisfying way of being a cameraman. But I've found on films now in the digital revolution, that satisfaction's not quite there anymore.

47:35Jawad MirAnd I think that also is, with some exceptions, is shown in the performance because when the director is right there with the camera operator, DP, and the actors are right there as well, there is that level of trust and that level of, okay, this director wants me, no, cares about me and wants the best performance out there, out of me. And it is also, for the lack of better word, a slight fear that he's right there or she's right there. I need to be on my top of my game, as opposed to he or she is sitting in another room with a monitor. So it creates that pressure, but the pressure brings out the best performance as well.

48:16John SealeWell, one, a lovely recent example was with the beautiful Tilda Swinton, with George Miller's Three Thousand Years of Longing. And about two weeks in, because of the dig… the digital world now means that the cameraman goes off to the DIT tent, and you…

48:33Jawad MirYeah

48:34John Seale... Light, you literally light on the DIT monitors, which are all calibrated and whatnot. So you're not on set. And about two weeks in, I came back onto the set, and Tilda looked at me and she said, "Where have you been?" And I thought, "I'm in trouble here. I'm in trouble." And I said, "well, Tilda, I've, I've been up in the DIT tent." She, "What's a DIT tent?" She didn't have a clue what a DIT tent was. I said, "It's the digital intermediate technicians tent. We're looking after you there." I started to talk very quickly. I said, "We're looking after you there. We've got, you know, we've got very large, very highly calibrated, monitors, and we're checking color and things. We're looking after you up there." I kept saying, "We're looking after you. We're looking after you," you know? And she looked, and she said, "Well, I, that's not what I'm used to. I like it when the director of photography's standing be… beside the camera." And I thought, "Ding, there you go."

49:35John SealeThat's all big part of the, of an actor's security is to have…

49:40Jawad MirYeah

49:40John Seale... The cameraman staring at them, watching every little bit of light or, y… you know, e… everything that's happening to them. And, so after that, I didn't go up to the DIT tent. I said, "You're on your own. You're on your own." And he said, "Well, I need your input." I said, "You're not gonna get it. We'll do it in post. Don't worry. Don't worry." So then I…

50:00Jawad MirIt's a sense of validation, right?

50:02John SealeYeah. And I thought that is a s… little sad bit that we've lost out of the filmmaking process as we just talked, from the photochemical process where the director was there beside the camera. The director of photography was there, the operator, if they had one, with all their staring at them and looking after them, basically. And now they're not there. The director's 30 feet away in a blacked out little tent watching a monitor, and cameraman's in the DIT tent. There's nobody there. It's sort of the, they might feel is security. So I worry about that a little. Not I worry about it, but I just feel it's a loss at this stage.

50:49Jawad MirAnd I think it's gone one step beyond that now with AI coming into play, and imagine what that would... I mean, it already is, but imagine what that would do in five, 10 years when people will cherish the way they made films in the early 2000s and the mid-2000s.

51:08John SealeAbsolutely.

51:09Jawad MirSo I... Yeah, it's, it's interesting times. But nevertheless, thank you so much, John, for your time. Lovely talking to you as usual. Thank you for all the insight as well.

51:20John SealeAny time, any time. Any film, any time.

51:23Jawad MirPerfect. We'll be in touch for sure. Thank you for your time. You have yourself a great day, a great weekend coming up for you.

51:29John SealeYou too. Cheers.

51:31Jawad MirCheers. Take care. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.