'Woody Allen, A Travesty of a Mockery of a Sham', Author, Patrick McGilligan

0:09Jawad MirHow have you, how are you?

0:11Patrick McGilliganGood.

0:12Jawad MirI like your setup.

0:14Patrick McGilliganGood. Well, it's just my bedroom. My office too.

0:19Jawad MirGreat. Well, thank you so much for joining. I, appreciate it, for you to talk about your upcoming book, Woody Allen: Life and Legacy, right? Is that the title?

0:30Patrick McGilliganI think Life and Legacy was there for a while, and it got dropped as a

0:35Jawad MirOkay

0:35Patrick McGilligan... Whoops. Sorry. Yeah, it got dropped as a, subtitle. I don't know. I haven't opened and looked and inspected and paid any, much attention, but, it could be called Life and Legacy. That was originally the title, and I fought for the title A Travesty of a Mockery of a Sham, and then after a while, they liked that title.

0:58Jawad MirYeah, I'm just, I just Googled it while you were talking, and that's, that is the title. So you won your battle.

1:03Patrick McGilliganYeah.

1:03Jawad MirCongratulations.

1:04Patrick McGilliganYeah.

1:05Jawad MirAmazing. Well, you know, I haven't seen the book, I haven't read the book, but, I have seen Woody Allen films. You know, Annie Hall…

1:18Patrick McGilliganIt's good enough.

1:20Jawad MirAnnie Hall, Cre… there's so many of them, Hollywood Ending, Small Time Crooks… Crooks, Match Point. I mean, there's so many. And I would love to, before we dive into that, I would love to hear your story, Patrick, as to how you got involved into writing, books…

1:40Patrick McGilliganWell…

1:40Jawad Mir... And stories.

1:41Patrick McGilliganWell, books, well, it's, that's a good answer, but I'll give you the short version, and you can tell me if you want…

1:47Jawad MirSure

1:47Patrick McGilligan... A longer version.

1:47Jawad MirSure.

1:48Patrick McGilliganI was a undergraduate, in 1969 in Madison, Wisconsin, and I fell in with a lot of older, students who were radicals, and they were also, film buffs. And, many of them had, film societies, their own little film societies, and they used to gather in the, afternoons and mornings and watch, you know, all day Bud Boetticher musi… musicals or something, you know, some odd thing. And then, I, because I was in, I was involved both in politics and in film, at a certain point I started to write a term paper in order to avoid going to class, because we were trying to shut down the university, and the TAs were all sympathetic politically, and so I started writing about Jimmy Cagney. And short answer is, it became a term paper. The, I had never heard of Jimmy Cagney before, really, and I'd never watched his films, but the University of Wisconsin Madison had all the Warner Brothers archives from, like, the, late 1920s to the early 1950s, so it was a goldmine f… in the Midwest.

2:58Patrick McGilliganOn the East Coast, people were used to seeing these things on late night TV and, revival houses, which is one of the reasons why all the people who were radical and sophisticated about film were from the East Coast, and most of them were Jewish. And so I started writing about Jimmy Cagney. Term paper got an A. My, TA said, "Have you ever thought of turning this into a film magazine jour… article?" And I said, "Well, is there any money in that?" And he said, "There might be a little." And there was a film magazine on campus called The Velvet Light Trap, and I knew all the people, 'cause a lot of them were older people, graduate students, these sophisticates who were radicals. And I went to the editor and showed it to him, and he said, "Well, if you revise it and make it better and do these things, I could do it." And, when I was done, he said, "This is really good. Have you ever thought of turning it into a book?" And I said, "Well, is there any money in that?" And, he said, "There might be," so I went into the campus bookstore, I went to the film book section for the first time. I wrote down five publishers with the names of either editors or agents or people mentioned in acknowledgments, and I spent what I considered to be a lot of money on what we used to call mimeograph, you know, to make five copies of my article and send it out to five.

4:15Patrick McGilliganAnd one of the five was in England, and, that's the one that said yes. And so I had a book contract, I think I was a sophomore, and, that was a big deal. Also a big burden, big psychological burden, and so I started writing film books. My first book was about Jimmy Cagney.

4:35Jawad MirAmazing. Yeah, you talked about, that you were in politics and the university was shut down. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? I don't know what the context of that was.

4:43Patrick McGilliganI don't mind. I can talk about it all you want. I mean, a lot of my work is, I don't tell people what to think or what to believe, and I don't, like, you know, flaunt my politics, but I've been attacked in the Wall Street Journal a couple of times. I did a volume of interviews with Estes, which I'm very proud of, and it's a really great book, with another author, Paul Buhle. And, you know, my book about Oscar Michaux, my book about, Q. Gor, Fritz Lang, Altman, Nicholson, Eastwood, they all have, Nick Ray, who was a informer during the blacklist, they all have a political dimension, to them. And, they're, you know, it's one of the areas of people's lives, that you automatically delve into, including religion and, you know, education and family life and spouses and relatives and that sort of thing, but also politics. And, I'm very interested in it, so I delve into it, and then I try to see what's honorable, what's fair, what's interesting.

5:48Patrick McGilliganAlso, how it influences the films. In Jimmy Cagney's case, he had been a very, left-wing, person in his, first decade in Hollywood, and he was a, he was a emblem to the Hollywood left. And he was very close to… Hollywood communists, and then later on, towards the end of his career, he becomes super right-wing, and he's very close to people like Reagan and Jimmy Stewart and John Wayne, that wing in Hollywood. And so I found that very interesting to trace in the films because, the na… title of the book is Cagney: The Actor as Auteur, which was a very, let us say, at the time, brave or qu… quixotic use of that term, which is meant entirely in France at the time as the directors who were auteurs. But I said this, some actors are so important, they imprint themselves on their films, and they become the auteur. And, so it's very interesting to see politically how that works in Cagney's case, among many other things in his films that are interesting, including above all, he's an amazing performer.

6:55Patrick McGilliganAnd, so it works, it works for me. You know, some people are less political, in their, in their activities, although I would say, you know, very political, sometimes in ways that they don't flaunt in their work. Like, you know, I wrote about Mel Brooks. He's not a very political person up until post age 80 maybe. You know, he was very, compared to other people in his circle, quiet, du… didn't contribute, didn't make appearances, didn't make political statements, but I consider his films to be... You know, I used to have a friend on the blacklist who said, you know, all outrageous comedy is, you know, a thumb in the nose of American Puritanism, and I believe it is. You know, I think that's a fair comment. And, it's one of the reasons why some of the greatest, many great, comedies by Abbott and Costello, who are extremely Republican comedians, both in real life and in their form of comedy, they were written by Hollywood communists who were later blacklisted.

8:04Patrick McGilliganSo, the communists who were comedians and who were comics in those days, many of them gravitated to the left. I would say the majority, but there's no way to prove that statistically. And their comedy tended to be subversive of the, production code, of, you know, straight-laced, American morality, et cetera, tended to be Jewish, you know, and, openly so. And all these things are relatively true of Mel Brooks, who's probably the least, you know, one of the least political, people I've ever written about.

8:41Jawad MirInteresting. And…

8:42Patrick McGilliganWoody does, delves into politics, you know, in various ways throughout his life, only to be disappointed, I would say. But it makes for interesting telling, you know, the various times and how he's drawn in and how he gives money and how he participates. You know, at one point, he's at the Eiffel Tower doing a, Americans for LBJ, you know, rally with, you know, the most prominent European and American stars who happened to be in Paris at the time. So, and there's a book, there's a picture in the book of him in a, in a receiving line shaking the hand of Lady Bird and LBJ, at one of the, thank you know, events.

9:26Jawad MirWow. That's pretty cool. I found it, one of the things that you talked about, and I think that's true for everybody and based on what I have seen, obviously, I don't know every single person, but, you know, we all sort of tend to shift our political views every 10-odd, 15 years this way and that way. Some of us go a little too far in both directions, but I think we keep going back and forth. That's what I've seen, that, you know, when you're young, you're more so on the left side than when you become, like, somewhere in the 30s and 50s, you're more on the right.

10:01Patrick McGilliganYeah, I interviewed René Clair once, and he said, "You know, if you're not a radical or a revolutionary w… in your youth, you know, what's the, what's the point? What's…

10:09Jawad MirYeah

10:09Patrick McGilligan... What are y… what kind of youth are you living?" I honestly don't feel like I've changed my, views at all about a lot of things. They're deepened, and maybe they get more nuanced. I'm, I'm not, even though I worked for a campus, I was the editor of a campus newspaper that told people what to think every day in editorials, some of which…... I wrote, I hated that, position. And so I will write books, without saying what I think, just telling what I have found out and what I can report, and, feel very comfortable doing that, you know, in a sense, leading people to water and letting them decide whether or not to drink. But I, you know, I was, it was correct of The Wall Street Journal to attack me twice, you know, and say I was some kind of leftist or some kind of liberal. I am some kind of leftist, you know. And I haven't changed, my opinions about a lot of things, even though a lot of things have been proven wrong, and a lot of things are bad, you know, that we believed in.

11:18Patrick McGilliganThat doesn't mean the values and the sort of ideals, but also sort of basically a left-wing view of the world, doesn't, you know, continue to resonate with me.

11:30Jawad MirYeah

11:30Patrick McGilligan... I know Ring Lardner, who's in the Tender Comrades book, he had a very funny comment 'cause he went to the Soviet Union, which, maybe was Russia by then, in his, in his 90s, and someone caught him on the airplane on the way back off the, tarmac and asked him, you know, is he, can he now agree that communism doesn't work? And he said, "Well, since it's never really been tried properly, I can't." Agree with you. But I'm not saying I'm a communist. I'm just saying that kind of, stubborn belief in leftist ideals, I admire in the blacklist generation. I find it in most of the people that I went through the '60s with. The vast majority of them stayed leftist or left liberal or progressive, even if they, in their careers or in their lives did things that you would, like, roll your eyes at to think, you know, is, d… even if I roll my eyes at it. You know, they stayed personally very...

12:32Patrick McGilliganLike, I d… have very few fallings out politically with people that I knew when I was 18, 19 years old who were left-wing, in various ways. I mean, some were Trotskyites, some were Stalinists, you know, some were for workers, some were for, TAs. You know, there was a, there were h… some were hippies, you know. The hippies were right about a lot of things, you know. And so it was a melting pot of the left, but I don't have big fallings out with, very few, you know…

13:05Jawad MirOkay

13:05Patrick McGilligan... A handful politically. Now, you might have falling out over films.

13:11Jawad MirNo, it's true because what I, what I was sorta getting at, that sometimes I think we feel that we change, but I think what happens is that surroundings change as a collective, and then we shift based on that, and it sometimes feels like we're shifting when even though it's a reaction to that. Does that make any sense?

13:32Patrick McGilliganWell, I mean, it's certainly something you can say today because everybody is terribly, worried and, oppressed, you know, by the political reality we live in America, which I think the actual reality is, you know, not as bad as everyone says given, you know, who voted and how many people voted and what the margins are, et cetera. But there's no question that a right-wing revolution is going on. So, you know, you might have your own feelings would be your political feelings might be in flux. But I, again, one of these guys from the Hollywood blacklisted generation, Lionel Stander, was quite a character both as an actor and, politically. You know, he always used to say, "I take, I take the long view," you know. He took the long view about everything. And, you know, right up until he was dead when there was no longer a long view, he was taking the long view. But, I think there's wisdom in left w… you know, I knew Pete Seeger a little bit.

14:35Patrick McGilliganI knew a lot of very famous, you know, left-wing icon figures, a little bit. And, most of them, if they were wise, took the long view and, you know, they might be more muted nowadays. And they maybe should be, you know, out of concern, you know, for their safety and their good, wellbeing. But I, no, yes, you, especially, like, I don't know if you have kids, so if you have kids…

15:09Jawad MirI do

15:09Patrick McGilligan... And you have a wife and then you settle into a house, you know, my brother, my brother who was always a lifelong liberal, and he distinguishes himself from being a leftist, but he's a very good liberal, as there indeed there are some. You know, he would always say to me, "I can't believe you, a leftist with a family and kids." I'd say, "Leftists go to the bathroom and, you know, they put on their pants every, you know, come on." so there's a lot you can do as a leftist that, makes you fit into the neighborhood.

15:39Jawad MirRight. Right. No, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting times we live in and, you know, let's, let's jump into your book, Woody Allen. What was the genesis of that book? Is it just something that you've been planning for a while and considering all the stuff that you've written on different

15:56Patrick McGilliganNo. No. Never planned it. Never thought about it. I always liked Woody's films, with exceptions. And

16:06Jawad MirOf course

16:07Patrick McGilligan... And, I mostly kept up with him, which is almost impossible. And, I admired him as a filmmaker, and then I saw what happened to him, and then I wondered just like everybody else. But no, I would've, I consider it too big a job. You know, it's a hard job. Too many films, too crazy a life. It's gonna, to do it properly, because I don't think it had been done properly, it required a lot of very close attention and thinking and a big, massive material, and wading through some things that are very charged emotionally and politically. And no, it wasn't on my radar at all, but I had done a book about Mel Brooks, which was, is pretty good and interesting. And, so therefore I'd established my credentials, like, in that area, whatever it might be, you know, comedy, Jewish comedy, emerging great Jewish filmmakers of the '60s and '70s. And Woody's in that book in a couple of chapters because they were colleagues.

17:11Patrick McGilliganAnd, I didn't wanna do Woody 'cause I didn't wanna have to sit down and be very careful to think about everything, including being Jewish and what that re… how that's reflected in his movies, which for someone who's not Jewish, and a lot of the people I've written about are Jewish, so I've had to do it several times, it's, it's, an onerous task for me, you know, to get into that mindset and try and master it and try and understand it. And I don't get it once and then I'm there. I have to start all over again with each subject. So no, I went through a lot of subjects with my editor, at the time, and we had very contentious conversations, politely contentious, but, over things he wanted me to do and versus what I wanted to do. And I was thinking, maybe I won't do anything. You know, I've done a lot. I don't need to do something. I need to do it for money, you know, but I don't need to do it for any other reason. Well, money is a pretty good reason. You know, at the end of that long conversation, this editor, who's a very good guy, said to me, "I'm gonna try one more name on you, and please don't jump down my throat."

18:20Patrick McGilliganSo that gives you an idea of what kind of conversation we were having. And he said, "How do you feel about Woody Allen?" And I said, "Well, I like him." He said, "Do you like his films?" I said, "Pretty much." And he said, "Do you think he molested his, adopted daughter?" I said, "I don't think so, but if I find out that he did, you'll be the first to know, and I'll definitely try and find out if he did." He said, "In other words, you could write about him?" And I said, "Yeah." And he said, "Okay, we got a deal." That was the, that was the briefest non-written pitch I've ever had. And, you know, like, it's, like I say, it's a double-edged sword.

19:01Patrick McGilligan... The j… the editor was great. His enthusiasm and trust was great. The money was great. The publisher has been great, considering all their qualms, you know. But, you know, it's a minefield.

19:16Jawad MirYes. Yes, and that's whereby leads my next question, too. So, you know, you talked about, obviously anybody who picks up the book from the bookstore, the first thing that would come to their mind is, like, the whole controversy about him and his daughter, right?

19:30Patrick McGilliganYeah.

19:30Jawad MirNow, I don't know what you have written. Obviously I liked your approach, what you just said, that, "I don't think so, but if I find out, I'll, you'll be the first one to know."

19:40Patrick McGilliganRight.

19:40Jawad MirWhatever conclusion that you reached as an author in the book, did the publishers have any suggestions otherwise that, "No, this is, this isn't good"?

19:50Patrick McGilliganThis is a very interesting question, and I'm glad you asked it. First of all, I had to be careful not to let that become what the book is about.

19:58Jawad MirRight.

19:59Patrick McGilliganIn other words, he's, he's got a long, interesting career. I am a reporter, trained as a reporter, and I'm, I wasn't, you know, daunted, but I just... It was a lot of work, you know, to do research and think about all these things. But I didn't wanna let this whole, brouhaha about him, overwhelm the book. And actually, in the, during the period of time from which I got the contract until now, it was almost, like, five years elapsed, and the Me Too movement resurges and he goes deeper into cancellation. And, so in a way, everything about the book became more treacherous, and, my opinions became more, sensitive to everyone concerned. And, the lawyers for the publisher looked at it very carefully. And lawyers, I have found, 'cause I had a book sued by Clint Eastwood, I ha… have had books threatened with suit, you know, my Hitchcock book was threatened with suit, my Cukor book was threatened with suit.

21:08Patrick McGilliganI pride myself on being the, doing what is on the edge of acceptable, you know, and, also knowing the law, and I believe in truth and fact, and also, good judgment and fair assumption, all those things. And so they looked at it very carefully, and it's one of the things that kept the book going when everyone thought, "Oh, maybe we shouldn't publish this book because there'll be such an outcry and nobody will buy it." N… well, I can't argue with either of these things., You know, I would say this is a reasonable, perspective on a, on the possible book. The, but the lawyers looked at it very carefully, and lawyers are very good copy editors. They're better than copy editors. You know, they say, "What do you mean by this word?" You know, I go, "Well, I mean that." They go, "Well, it's a little loaded. You know, shouldn't you say this instead?" I go, "It's a good word. You know, no, it's good." So they're very good copy editors, and they very, they pick at things, and this particular lawyer was good enough to even find things in the book that had nothing to do with any legal issue, that was simply inaccurate, you know, and point them out, you know.

22:19Patrick McGilliganMainly things that, being from Wisconsin, about New York, I got wrong, you know. So he was a really good copy editor. He was a great legal beagle, you know. And at the end, he said, you know, "You were really careful and judicious and reasonable and accurate, and it's amazing. You did a great job." He was really complimentary. I don't wanna, like, I didn't write it down. But he was…

22:46Jawad MirI get it, yeah

22:47Patrick McGilligan... And inside the house, you know, if he had said anything negative, the book would, might be dead, you know. It certainly would've been, problematic. But the fact that he had said something good, really good, and, I never asked if he could be swayed or did anyone ever go back and talk to him, but I'm sure people went back and talked to him, and he said, "No, it's good." You know, he liked it. He, we made some changes. We tried to, as I say, minimize some things that didn't need to be maximized. There was much more in original drafts about Ronan Farrow, for example, and both my editor and the lawyer said, "You don't need that. That is just gonna get you attacked for something that has nothing to do with the bulk of the book." You know, and these are always good criticisms. And so there were l… little things that were changed and little things that were... But nothing,.. Strangely, that's why it's such a big book.

23:50Patrick McGilliganI mean, strangely, not a lot was, either taken out or radically, drastically changed, and most of it was really, you know, intelligent. You know, every once in a while, and this happens in when you write about film books, and this is gonna make you chuckle, and I'm gonna be a little bit unclear about exactly what I mean just because I don't wanna get anybody in trouble, but every once in a while, your editor will say to you, "Pat…" I love that film. Can't you like it a little bit more just for me? And see, I'm not ideological about films at all. I'm not dogmatic at all. In fact, I believe the people who say Megalopolis is terrible are right, and the people who say Megalopolis is a work of genius are right. They're both right. So then I change it, and I did that with one particular movie in the Woody Allen book because, the editor speaking to me was so heartfelt, you know? I said, "Gee, you're probably right.

24:51Patrick McGilliganI probably was too dismissive. I'll go back and make that much nicer," you know? And so, I know from, like, people listening to this who aren't in the field they might s… this might sound like a terrible compromise. No, actually it's my point of view.

25:08Jawad MirYeah.

25:08Patrick McGilliganMy point of view is your point of view is very interesting and important. And if I can honor that in some way, you know, without, doing something that goes against my grain, I'm happy. You know, I'm happy. So it's better that way. This film that I liked better because of, this editor's remark is treated better in the book. And s… you know, one of the interesting things about the book, which you don't know 'cause you haven't read it, is that I, polled over 100 important film critics, for the final chapter over what films they consider to be Woody's greatest and their favorites. And then I... It's, like, 107 critics, including famous critics who are, famous now, and famous critics who have since deceased, you know? And many I knew, and then a lot of young people and bloggers and people I don't know from Adam, you know? And, this film that I was obliged to like more, you know, is in, like, the top 15, which is saying a lot, you know?

26:14Patrick McGilliganMight even be in the top 10. I can't remember, like, at the bottom of the top 10. But what you found out was that amongst 107 film critics, partly, justifying this long, laborious explanation, is that people would say things like, "Woody didn't make any good movies after 1992. He made too many movies and not many of them were good." But you find out that in the top 10, there's, like, four or five after 1992 that got 35 votes out of 107, which is a lot, you know. I'm making up these numbers 'cause I don't…

26:47Jawad MirYeah

26:47Patrick McGilligan... Remember exactly. But, you know, that in fact it's a lot easier to list the Woody Allen films that didn't get a vote, one of which is Interiors, you know, which was nominated for, like, five, six, seven Oscars. So yes, views change over time, and critical views especially change over time, and, but mostly the film critics didn't hold it up, hold it against Woody that he's been canceled by the culture.

27:18Patrick McGilliganMostly they did not. In fact, Manhattan is, like, I think number two, you know, even though women voted for it, female film critics voted for it with the parentheses, "However, I can't stand the relationship between the older guy, the older guy, Woody, and the young, the young, girl in the story." and that's considered a s… kind of seminal work of Woody's, like, being, you know, grooming young people on screen, you know, in a, in a role. So, I find, I find there's a lot of room, especially with Woody Allen, to agree ab… or disagree about that. So, but number one was Annie Hall.

27:57Jawad MirNo surprise there. I…

27:58Patrick McGilliganRunaway. Runaway number one. No qualms about the past, you know.

28:04Jawad MirWhat's your favorite Woody Allen film, or top three?

28:06Patrick McGilliganWell, sadly it would be probably Annie Hall, too, so I can't, I have no, like, you know, headline shockers for you. But I will say that, you know, the ones that I would've put in the top 10 or even... I asked people to name their top five, and then we added up all the numbers. We meaning me. But, you know, I would've put films in the top five that, aren't in the top 10, you know, like Stardust Memories or Deconstructing Harry, which I really like those movies. And then I would've ranked some films a lot higher. Like, I think Match Point is number seven or eight or something. Again, I can't remember exactly, but I would've ranked it probably in my top five. It's hard, because actually…

28:46Jawad MirYeah, it is hard

28:46Patrick McGilligan... When you put down, for example, one of the movies that, like, got an amazing amount of, votes and I think is in the top five is the one, I hadn't thought about it as being so, beloved and highly ranked, but it's the one with Mia Farrow where he's a, vaudeville booker agent, you know? And the name is escaping me. Everybody loves the movie. There's nothing not to love, you know. It's an adorable, wonderful Woody Allen movie, and I think it got in the top five. So, I would've been tempted, I wouldn't have thought of doing that, but after d… doing the poll, I'd be tempted to put it in my own top five, 'cause it is a really perfect movie, a perfect movie. But, you know, the ones that got in the top five are, like, you know, Annie Hall, Manhattan, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Purple Rose of Cairo, I think, and maybe Zelig, you know. I mean, these are pretty hard to…

29:44Jawad MirIgnore

29:44Patrick McGilligan... Put down.

29:45Jawad MirYeah.

29:46Patrick McGilliganTo dislike.

29:47Jawad MirI had a question about w… kind of going back to the publisher thing. So obviously, you have been around writing books and, you know, you've gone through different eras of history and everything. The times that we live in today, right, and that's why I asked you that question, you talked about the Me Too movement as well, is that everybody is, like, it's, it's not even publishers. This is, like, Hollywood studios, distributors, you know, whatever. Whoever is the managing power producers They have to have a say, which is good, but more so from a political standpoint. Like, what if this is shown or said, it may offend XYZ, right? Was that the case…

30:33Patrick McGilliganThere's a, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that

30:34Jawad Mir... There is a lot of that, I know, right now, but was that the case in the past, 10 years ago or 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago? Because that…

30:45Patrick McGilliganWell, it was m… no. But you know, it was, it was said differently, and in some ways was the same thing. So when I pitched my book about Oscar Micheaux, you know, even my agent said, "Pat, you're not Black." You know, and I said, "Gloria, are you sure? You know, let's not be too quick about that," you know? And, so I pitched it for a while before I got someone to say, "Well, n… no one else is doing it. You may as well do it," you know? And they didn't know who he was anyway, so they didn't care, you know? Or, you know, when I did a Clint Eastwood book, and it can, it could be called, you know, the, you know, the anti-Clint book in the sense that I took a very critical view of his life and career, which was new at the time, has now been, has seeped into a lot of people's ideas about him, but it was new at the time. And my editor was, who eventually rejected the book said more generally than, my editor at Harper Collins who asked me to like a Woody Allen movie a little better.

31:55Patrick McGilliganHe said, "Can't you like the whole guy a lot better and everything he does a lot better?" And I said, "No, that's not the book. It's not the book," you know? Those books are done every year by someone else. Isn't Clint Eastwood a great guy? So, that was a kind of, conventional, editorial wokeness at the time, you know, is what I would call it. But I find, you know, wokeness to be, first of all, I'm in favor of it sometimes, you know? I mean, if you say, "Let's be woke about Trump," I'd go, "Great," you know? "Let's, let's be woke about Trump." But you know, most of the, a lot of times it's by people who, you know, discovered Gaza on a map for the first time last year in s… in sophomore courses, you know? So I'm not saying a lot of time, but I've encountered where it is so. And then in publishing it's, publishing has a lot of, I would say, legitimate concerns including costs, including declining literacy, including aging demographics, including, l… fewer and fewer reviews, fewer and fewer bookstore.

33:07Patrick McGilliganYou know, it just goes on and on and on, even before you get to Woody Allen. So when they say to me, "We're worried about your Woody Allen book," let's say, if they said that, it would be completely reasonable, you know? And I wouldn't take it personally because then on top of all that, you have the Me Too, cancel culture, woke environment, you know, which is, you know, from my point of view, can become in many instances or in some instances a form of blacklisting, without cause or fact, you know?

33:42Jawad MirYeah.

33:42Patrick McGilliganAnd they worry about that because they are basically younger editors with basically younger authors and younger readers. And again, you, that's a wokeness that I think is understandable, meaning I could see why they would be a… worried about that. I disagree. I used to think, you know, publishing, there used to be a film books editor at every house who would do it 'cause I love the films and I love the people and I lo… you know, and they, and nobody worried about these things per se, and now people worry about them all the time, you know? They say, "Well, you can't write that book because you're not a woman."

34:25Jawad MirSee, I find…

34:27Patrick McGilliganAnd it's possible I can, I can't write that book because I'm a woman, but I would kinda like to try.

34:32Jawad MirYeah. The, but the interesting, the interesting thing is that I find, and I have no hard data to prove it based on what I observe and I see being in the business myself, is that you, in any kind of topic, right? And if there's a producer or a publisher or editor, whatever, or, even at a news desk, they're worried, okay, we shouldn't post it like this because it's gonna do this. I'm willing to bet that whatever that is, it's probably going to have the same amount, if not more percentage of people who may agree with it than as opposed to the other way around. So I think it's a good balance. It's important to have people to agree and disagree 'cause that's how you start debate. And when you have debate…

35:18Patrick McGilliganYeah. Yeah. And I'm not saying…

35:19Jawad Mir... You prosper.

35:20Patrick McGilliganYeah. I'm not saying I agree with, things like we're talking about that the publisher uses or…

35:27Jawad MirYeah

35:28Patrick McGilligan... Thinks of, as... I don't agree at all. In fact, I think it's cowardly and I think that's one of the reasons why we're sliding into non-literacy and nobody…

35:36Jawad MirYes

35:36Patrick McGilligan... Caring what fact is, et cetera. And I teach, I teach in college and, you know, k… I mean this nicely, but kids can't read and write. They can't read a book and they can't write. So, all these things are part of this general, really horrible malaise that our children are going to be, grow, and our grandchildren in my case, are gonna be grown into, you know, raised up into, and it's pretty terrible. And yes, I think one of the weapons is a good, intelligent, fact-based, truth-based book that is old school. Yeah, that's what I think. But that's an old school opinion, you know? And if they say to you it's an old school opinion and, "Pat, our demographics are changing for bookstores and reviewers and bloggers and podcasters, et cetera," I would say Yeah, no, that's true. You know, I mean, it's true. I do better, I, you know, I won't say I do better, but I've, I make my living outside of the US in foreign translations.

36:40Patrick McGilliganI get the money to write the books in America, thank you to the publishers and the editors. They give me enough money. It's l… not a lot of money, it's like a, you know, a bad school teacher's salary to write the books, but I'm f… happy about that. I'm happy. And then I make all the rest of my livelihood by, foreign rights, translations, sales, appearances, grants, like I've had several Fulbright's. Motion picture rights that never eventuate, but you get money for them, you know?

37:15Patrick McGilliganI've had several books that have sold... I have one now, the Orson Welles book is under option. And y… I get money without doing anything. This is my dream. It is every author's dream is to make more money. See, Stephen King gets more money without doing anything 'cause his books sell.

37:33Jawad MirYeah. I mean, I can't believe the guy's still…

37:35Patrick McGilliganBut in America…

37:35Jawad Mir... Writing books

37:36Patrick McGilligan... Because, yeah. He, you know, bless him…

37:40Jawad MirYeah, for sure

37:40Patrick McGilligan... 'cause he, his name brings people to books and to bookstores and into reading. And he makes money by selling, but I really, in America, sell very modestly. Always have. Some books, like the Hitchcock book, started making money after 10 years. Now it makes money every year. Good money for me, and it makes money overseas every year for me, mostly in France. And, but it didn't make money for 10 years for the American publishers. Well, you know, that's why I edit a lot of books, I've worked for a lot of publishers. I still edit books, I still work with authors who are trying to get books published. You know, there's a reality out there that is harsh. It's harsh reality, it's a very harsh reality, and I've always thought it was a harsh reality even when it was a nicer reality, you know? But it's possibly harsher than ever right now.

38:40Jawad MirYeah. What's, it's, it's, it's interesting times we live in, and I truly feel that making, telling stories, whether it's in a form of a news article, as long as it's not an opinion, you know, even film, as long as it's not, like, some sort of a propaganda, but you try to sort of balance it out in some way possible, I… is probably the, we need that more than ever before. Because either we're this way or that way, and that's not really, and nobody wants to have a debate for the lack of argument, right? And I think debates are something that really, Obama said something, I'm not too crazy about a lot of his policies, but I agree with his statement that he said that when you discuss a con… a topic with somebody, I'm paraphrasing him, he or she may learn something from you, and you may learn something from them, and that's how you prosper. And I think that is so important nowadays that we need to listen more than speak.

39:42Patrick McGilliganYeah. I think that's true. And, like I say, I'm not very ideological in my books about what I think or say. I…

39:49Jawad MirYeah, I know

39:50Patrick McGilligan... I always refrain from saying so-and-so…... Is a great director in print because it just is a bad cliche. And I, and I refrain from giving an opinion on, you know, Woody on his, adopted daughter in the book. I let other people speak. And then so, yes, the book should be open to dis… o… it should open a discussion.

40:11Jawad Mir100%.

40:12Patrick McGilliganJust as with the film critics, when I approached them and said, "Will you vote for your five favorite or best Woody Allen movies?" Some said, "No, I don't want my name associated with Woody Allen, not 'cause I don't love his movies, but I don't wanna be targeted by a mob." people were, "Oh, that's nice. That opens it up for conversation. There are good movies. Which are the better? Why?" You know, and there wasn't a lot of that conversation in the poll, but there would be for the book, because I do have, like a human being, when I watch a movie, I like one better than the other, and that either seeps into print or every once in a while it's stated, you know, in a way that's clear. But you know, when someone's made so many movies, as Woody has, it's like more than 50 if you count all the TV and all the, you know, actor appearances and things, there's bound to be disagreement.

41:11Jawad MirOf course, of course.

41:12Patrick McGilliganI had one person who answered the poll and said, "I've never liked Annie Hall. I don't like Annie Hall. I hate Annie Hall." You know, so there's even Annie Hall haters out there, you know? But you can see I'm laughing at it because, to me, that's the marketplace, you know?

41:27Jawad MirYeah. And it's, it's all, you know, subjective because, like for me, all the names that you mentioned, I enjoyed them, but I think personally for me, and that's because I come from a bias of being a director myself, the film that I really enjoyed the most was Hollywood Ending.

41:43Patrick McGilliganYeah.

41:44Jawad MirBecause it's about a guy, a director who ca… whose films are not working, and then he goes blind, and the g… the gist of the story was nobody cares for the film in the United States, but it becomes a hit in Paris, in France…

41:57Patrick McGilliganYeah

41:57Jawad Mir... Right? They, and I think it, that's where people sort of align with, whatever sort of clicks with them, but that doesn't mean…

42:05Patrick McGilliganYes

42:05Jawad Mir... That it, the film is not good if it doesn't…

42:08Patrick McGilliganYeah

42:08Jawad Mir... Align with them, you know?

42:09Patrick McGilliganAnd you know, I'll tell you something about Hollywood Ending since you like that film, which is Woody is notorious for, you know, equivocating about his films or saying, "Ah, well, it was, I tried, but it wasn't that good," or, you know, "People like it."

42:21Jawad MirYeah.

42:21Patrick McGilligan"Maybe that's why it so doesn't affect me, and like, I don't like it 'cause they like it so much." He liked Hollywood Ending.

42:29Jawad MirOh, he did?

42:29Patrick McGilliganHe al… he always thought it should get better, you know, g… better m… more money and better reviews, and it is one of the rare movies he confesses to liking a lot.

42:39Jawad MirOh, that's good to hear. No, it was, it was, I think it had a lot of hidden message in there, which I don't know if a lot of people understood that t… arts, and it's actually true. I'm in, and I'm in Canada, right? So w… our province, Quebec, which is French…

42:54Patrick McGilliganRight

42:55Jawad Mir... In Fr… something that would be made in Canada, like a Canadian show or something, would, on… online specifically, I was talking to one of the broadcasters, they would get less views in every province except Quebec, because the element of arts is very much appreciated even in France, and that's what Hollywood Ending was all about, that, you know…

43:18Patrick McGilliganYeah

43:18Jawad Mir... True art is not appreciated in our part of the world, but it is in Europe or France.

43:23Patrick McGilliganYeah, at the end of the movie he moves to France, or he's…

43:25Jawad MirYep, 100%

43:25Patrick McGilligan... He's going to France. Yeah.

43:27Jawad MirAnd…

43:27Patrick McGilliganIt's a very witty movie, and the cast is great.

43:29Jawad MirYeah, it is. Awesome. Well, it's been great, man. Thank you so much, Pat, for your time.

43:35Patrick McGilliganYeah

43:35Jawad Mir... I truly enjoyed our conversation. The book…

43:37Patrick McGilliganYeah

43:37Jawad Mir... Comes out this week

43:38Patrick McGilliganIf you give me a, if you give me, did you give me a snail mail address for yourself? If you give me a postal address for yourself, send it to me by email, I'll make sure you get a book.

43:46Jawad MirThat'd be awesome. And, the book comes out this week?

43:49Patrick McGilliganTomorrow, I think.

43:51Jawad MirAwesome.

43:52Patrick McGilliganYeah.

43:52Jawad MirWe'll keep people posted about it.

43:52Patrick McGilliganIt was reviewed in the Los Angeles Times yesterday. I haven't read it. Everybody said it was a really good review. I don't read reviews.

43:58Jawad MirYeah, I don't…

43:58Patrick McGilliganI don't need 'em in…

43:59Jawad MirI won…

43:59Patrick McGilligan... I don't need 'em inside my head

44:00Jawad Mir... I, yeah. Yeah, I won't read them. I wouldn't read them either.

44:03Patrick McGilliganYeah.

44:04Jawad MirGreat. Well, that's, it's been great. I would love to have you again maybe sometime about Alfred Hitchcock or Clint Eastwood or something.

44:09Patrick McGilliganAnytime.

44:10Jawad MirAwesome.

44:10Patrick McGilliganAnytime. You just ask when you need, have a little hole to fill.

44:13Jawad MirAwesome.

44:13Patrick McGilliganOkay?

44:13Jawad MirThank you so much, Pat. Take care.

44:14Patrick McGilliganAll right. All right.

44:15Jawad MirBye.