'Blade', Cinematographer, Theo Van de Sande

0:08Jawad MirI'll give you a little bit of context, about my familiarity with your, the film that you worked on, Blade.

0:15Theo Van de SandeYeah.

0:15Jawad MirWhen it, when it came out, I mean, I think it was probably the first superhero movie, that was…

0:21Theo Van de SandeIt was

0:21Jawad Mir... Yeah.

0:22Theo Van de SandeIt was.

0:22Jawad MirI probably, I didn't see it because I've never been a superhero fan. Like, I've never read comics growing up.

0:29Theo Van de SandeYeah.

0:30Jawad MirBut I saw it in 2010, and I absolutely loved it because nowadays, I mean, with the superhero movies, it is so spread out in terms of plot and so much stuff going on. That movie was so focused, and the characters and the story and the concept, the cinematography…

0:48Jawad Mir... Everything, even the visual effects, you know.

0:51Theo Van de SandeYeah.

0:51Jawad MirEven for today's times, they were incredible. So…

0:54Theo Van de SandeYeah, they were. You know why? Because they were, thought out well. They were, they belonged to that world, and, it's not a visual effect to show off the visual effects. It's a visual effect that is, helping the story. And w… wait, I wanna... Oh yeah, no, it's good. To help the story, and, the story was very grounded. But that's what was…

1:15Jawad MirYeah

1:15Theo Van de Sande... What was our most, important, our most important, goal was to make a, to create a world that was, believable. Although, in a superhero world, it was still believable with all the, with all the things, that are going on. Okay. Where do you want... And you, let… tell a little bit about, you, because, I don't know anything. But I just

1:45Jawad MirI…

1:45Theo Van de Sande... Responded three times on an email and so…

1:49Jawad MirYeah, absolutely. I am actually, a filmmaker myself. I got interested and wanted to become a director back in 1992.

2:00Theo Van de SandeYou are…

2:01Jawad MirNo problem

2:02Theo Van de Sande... Sorry.

2:03Jawad MirNo worries.

2:04Theo Van de SandeOkay. Go.

2:05Jawad MirWhen Jur… when Jurassic Park came out, huge Spielberg fan. Made a few shorts in university, and then I've made, four feature documentaries. Got some other projects going on. I actually, the way this podcast started, and I've said this a few times to, people I've spoken to, is that in the mid-ni… mid to late '90s when Dreamworks Studio was formed…

2:28Theo Van de SandeYes

2:28Jawad Mir... I was just fooling around and I made a website for my school project, and it just kinda got me interested, and it became really big. Like, I, for 10 years I had, like, this is before social media, about, like, 100,000 hits…

2:42Theo Van de SandeWow

2:42Jawad Mir... Per month. And then in COVID I started this podcast kinda, like, going back to Dreamworks projects, but then I realized that a l… there was this very limited number of projects that Dreamworks…

2:55Theo Van de SandeYes

2:55Jawad Mir... Had made. So then it just kinda expanded to everything. So I just kinda bring my element of storytelling that I have learned and I'm learning still every day, whether it's in narrative, feature documentaries or pr… projects that I'm working on, and just talking to f… you know, people like yourself, cinematographers…

3:12Jawad Mir... Filmmakers, editors, and just having a fun conversation. That's it.

3:16Theo Van de SandeThat's it.

3:17Jawad MirIt's all about... That's it. It's just, and I, you know, we all love ta… talking about movies, so…

3:23Theo Van de SandeYeah

3:23Jawad Mir... That's, that's the little context just to give you, but I appreciate you asking me.

3:27Theo Van de SandeSo, are you now in LA?

3:31Jawad MirNo, I'm in Toronto. I'm in…

3:33Theo Van de SandeOh, Toronto

3:33Jawad Mir... Toronto, Canada.

3:35Theo Van de SandeYou live there?

3:35Jawad MirYes, I live there, but I do travel for work quite a bit.

3:38Theo Van de SandeOf course. Yeah.

3:39Jawad MirYeah. I'm, I was actually in Amsterdam doing, there was a scene that we were filming for one of my documentaries, and one of the films got, shown at Utrecht and at a s… at a movie theater. It was, like, a very kinda, like, mom and pops movie theater. I forget the name.

3:53Theo Van de SandeYeah.

3:54Jawad MirSo that's how I sort of started going to Amsterdam, and then I kinda kept going after that, but

3:59Theo Van de SandeYeah

3:59Jawad Mir... But yeah, it's been good. It's been good.

4:01Theo Van de SandeIt's, it's a great city. We s… we are here, we are here one and a half months, two months around Christmas for the cold temperature, and then two months in springtime. And the rest of the time, we are in Brazil.

4:17Jawad MirOkay

4:17Theo Van de Sande... My partner is Brazilian, and, she's a writer and she's a artist. And, so we travel between,.. And when I work, I work where I have to work. People think, I work for Hollywood, yes, but I've never, I never shoot in Hollywood. I mean

4:35Jawad MirYeah

4:35Theo Van de Sande... Probably the last 15 years I haven't shot anything in Hollywood. Maybe one episode for a friend producer to replace the DP and help him get the, get good result. That's all I did, in fact. And every film was different, and still the last, the last three films I did were, was in Canada, in north Canada, and then one in, Serbia, and the last one in the Dominican Republic. And I'm leaving now in a m… in, less than a month I leave for, Italy, doing a…

5:08Theo Van de Sande... Film, a Netflix film with Mark Waters, which we have done a lot of pro… projects. And, it's, it's, I do now, I choose my projects a little bit more on, comfort. I have done enough. I mean, I did probably, I did 70, probably 70 films, 70 feature films.

5:29Jawad MirYeah.

5:29Theo Van de SandeAnd then, l… 35, episodes and mostly pilots. 'Cause the pilots you have to do something new. That's, that's the, that's what you wanna do.

5:45Jawad MirYeah.

5:45Theo Van de SandeSo, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm done. I mean, not done in the sense... Of course, the moment the camera rolls I'm of course full of passion.

5:54Jawad MirYeah.

5:54Theo Van de SandeBut, I'm, I'm, the, it's, it's, it becoming a little bit more, nowadays when you work whatever you work, with a big studio, with, TV… studio. It's, it's, it's more and more it becomes that they ask me to copy things that were successful.

6:12Jawad MirYeah.

6:12Theo Van de SandeAnd then I always tell them, "It's much easier for me to b… to be original than to copy, because what you show me is probably a film of, three times or four times our budget, and it's probably an actor that you cannot afford, and it's probably with a scene, with music that, we don't have yet. So, you show me something that you're excited about that we have to make, from scratch. And if we copy from scratch, it's much more work and much more... It's, it's much more work and, it's, it's not the way you do films. You do films, you create a world. That's, that's... And when you say, when you s… when you say, "Hey, Blade was s… some… something totally different", it's because in all elements. And that, I have to, tell you that Steve Norrington was really very strong in that. He was, he's, he's, he's genius in filmmaking, not in social connection. But that's another story.

7:14Jawad MirYeah.

7:14Theo Van de SandeIn film, as a filmmaker and in creating a world that makes sense and i… in a... It's about two sh… two stories, in fact. The stories of what's happening with the vampires, the new Turks in the vampire world, and the old established, classic, vampires. So, everything has, is grounded. And you see, of course, when he has his sword and he does this movement. That's unusual, but after three times, you know the deal and that's, that's the... Then you play with the cards that are you given and the game and the, and the rules that you have been given by the filmmaker himself. And especially in Blades, for me, it was an, very sh… close collaboration with Steve. Because Steve, it was Steve's, his first feature film. He had done... No, it's not true. It was his second feature film, and his first feature film was a very low-budget film.

8:18Theo Van de SandeBut it was also the reason that I did it, because it was really geniusly done, with a lot of visual effects, and I thought, "Hey, this is a very talented person." And it was o… and I, and I wasn't wrong. But, it was n… not easy to work with him. But

8:34Jawad MirYeah, no, it…

8:34Theo Van de SandeBut it doesn't matter

8:36Jawad Mir... It…

8:36Theo Van de SandeI enjoyed. It was more, not s… it was not so much, for me, difficult to work with, but for, him and the crew. Because he f… exploited the power that was given to him as a director in Hollywood, for a film that was 10 times more budget than the f… little film he had done. So, he suddenly felt like a director. And the, what you are. As a director, you're, you're God for the few days that you, have the power, and then you have to solve all the problems that you, that you've created when you were God, you know? It… It's, it's a different story for me. For me, I come in a film, I come in a film when the fighting stops. A year of fighting about the script, about the budget, about, the actors, about whatever. And then finally, oh, we're gonna shoot, and then I come in. So I come in on the time the decisions that are made with difficulties, they are dreams in the, in the sky, and I have to put them back on Earth.

9:40Theo Van de SandeSo it's a, it's a very nice job. And when we're done, the last shooting day, the wrap party, then the fighting starts again. How do we put this shit together and make it something…... Make s… something sensible out of it? Now, also there I come, I come in with the director to create that, and I, that's why I come from such a long, period of filmmaking. We create our film beforehand. I mean, I did eight films without an video assist. So the director never saw the shot. So he would ask there, "How was it?" And I would say, "Oh, boy, it was good. It was very good." Or I would say, "You know what? Let's do one more. Maybe things fall better in place." And not that, my camera movement wasn't good, but the combination of all these things, the rhythm that we had thought about didn't fall in place. So let's try once more as good as we can. And then boom, it worked or it didn't work, and then we move on. But it was a totally different, a totally different, relation with the director in that time. And now it's of course in the, now it has become digital and I have done 50 features film to film in the cinema.

10:49Theo Van de SandeSo, I have transferred what I know about filmmaking to, the digital world. So I figure out before I shoot what I'm doing. And that's, of course, a, much better, way to create a consistency in the story. The consistency now has many more possibilities, because working on the set, you are freer and you can, you can, react much faster with the tech, new technology as light and camera, and all these elements that you have as a cinematographer. But also in other levels, that you can react better on all the things that are, that are appearing on the set to tell the story and to create that world. But that well world has to be created. It's not like, "Hey, let's make a picture" and, "Oh, shit, that's beautiful." You know? No, it's, that's, you made the picture, but that's, that has nothing to do with what you have already in your mind. And that's, that's the image.

11:51Theo Van de SandeThat's the world that you create. So, in Blade specifically, I'm very proud of, having, of having created with, Steve and with the crew as well, I mean, the art directing, the wardrobe, the visual effects even later and also, and light as well. And we did a lot of tests… To create that, to put all the things together.

12:20Jawad MirYeah. And it shows... O… o… one thing you mentioned, which is kinda, it happens in a lot of movies, like, you know, when, with sci-fi or fantasy, is that you have to create a world where people can believe in.

12:35Theo Van de SandeYeah.

12:35Jawad MirAnd because if you, if you do not do that as the script progresses, whether it's in dialogue, whether it's in, cinematography, sets or, you know, costumes, makeup, no matter how strong the story is, if that doesn't connect, then it doesn't work.

12:51Theo Van de SandeNo.

12:51Jawad MirAnd one of the things in Blade that was so beautiful... So I, again, I'm not a superhero fan. I remember when, I remember I used to know somebody in high school, they were huge fans of, like, vampire movies, like Interview with Vampire…

13:06Theo Van de SandeYeah

13:06Jawad Mir... Dracula and all that stuff. I was never into those kind of movies either. But the great thing about this film was when I was watching it about, you know, 13 years ago and then I saw it again yesterday, is that it just explains everything clearly, to the point, without going over the top…

13:26Jawad Mir... Without being limited. And that, and even the opening, like, you know, that opening, what was it? Like, maybe a minute and a half long. Like, that just said so much…

13:35Theo Van de SandeYeah

13:35Jawad Mir... In just that minute and a half.

13:37Theo Van de SandeYeah.

13:37Jawad MirAgain, it's execution of story. And I, and that's again, the word grounded is just so cool that… ... You ha… You just feel that you're there, like you're taken on a journey. And the problem with a lot of films nowadays, or even sequels from movies back in the '90s, is that you always wanna go bigger and better, right?

13:57Jawad MirWhen you go bigger and better, then your budget goes up, your visual effects goes up, and the story becomes a secondary thing, and then it just suffers.

14:05Theo Van de SandeUnless you have this, you have these directors and, who can, and this, the DP, and this art director and these actors. If he can keep that all, even if the bu… the budget is, 300 million, if he can keep that intimate, goal of telling the story, then it's the same. For me, it's, when I was, in Europe and there was a chance that I was invited to do a film in the States and my crew, after a film that we just finished, the wrap party, we were drinking, and they said, "Theo, what is your next film?" I said, "No, I don't know. I don't know. I need to, here in Holland, I have to inven… invent every time the wheel again, the last film. So I'm looking maybe a little further." They say, "Ah, you go to Hollywood." I said, "No, Hol…..." "But you're never gonna..." "Listen, if Frank Francis Ford Coppola calls me tomorrow, if I can the day after start the film, then I can do that with you guys.

15:10Theo Van de SandeThat you have, you have no idea. I can do that."

15:12Jawad MirYeah.

15:12Theo Van de Sande"There's no difference. It's just a scale difference."

15:15Jawad MirYeah.

15:15Theo Van de Sande"It's a bigger lab, it's a bigger crew, it's a bigger... You just have to keep focused on the little things, that the story is. It's the same 100 pages typed with the same computer, with the same paper printed, and that's the dream. And we get, we get what we get. That's the set, offered. We decide a little bit, and Hollywood's for sure not." I mean, you come in because you're one of the most expensive guys, so you don't come in, five weeks before, six weeks before or 10 weeks before. Only the higher, the big films, of course you need to be there for the visual effects, for all the other stuff. But in, and if you, if you are,.. Shit, I lost my, I lost my line.

15:57Jawad MirNo, just working on, like, a bigger films basically, like, you know.

16:01Theo Van de SandeYeah. Proceed. It's, it's, it's a scale difference. That's, that's where it's come…

16:04Jawad MirAnd…

16:04Theo Van de Sande... Where it comes to make, to make that, to k… stay focused on that, on that creating of the other worlds, and that's, that's one of the most important things.

16:13Jawad MirAnd me, for me, I'm, and then there might be more, the movies that come to my mind where the sequels were equally good were, personally for me, obviously The Godfather I and II. You know, a lot of people don't like the third one. I thought it was a very good closure in terms of the, how the movie ended. And Indiana Jones I, II, and III.

16:34Jawad MirAnd anything, even the most in, recent Indiana Jones, I mean, they just went for bigger visual effects and all that stuff, and it didn't... I wasn't too crazy about it. It was an okay film. Like, I don't know if you have seen it.

16:46Theo Van de SandeNo

16:46Jawad Mir... I, yeah. I li… I probably li… liked the last act, which I thought could have been explored more, but anyways. So that's, that's the thing. It's very rare. E… even with the Matrix films, the first Matrix was so grounded, and then the second and third went crazy bec… with the visual effects.

17:03Theo Van de SandeYeah.

17:03Jawad MirRight?

17:03Theo Van de SandeGood example. Good example. The Matrix was made two years after us.

17:09Jawad MirLooks, I was gonna say that, it looks a lot similar.

17:12Theo Van de SandeTwo years. The editor, very good friends, lost a little bit contact because I'm so far away. Little bit contact. He got the Oscar for the editing. And, we were talking about the film a lot. When I saw The Matrix, I started to talk about the film and about how I liked it so much. And the bullet time camera, the bullet time shooting, I wanted to have that for the fight, the sword fight, but it wasn't developed yet. They had done only two little things, one, commercial, one commercial and one little sh… And they were, they didn't wanna do it because they thought, it's not, they were not ready yet.

17:58Jawad MirYeah.

17:58Theo Van de SandeI said, "No, come on. Let's, let's do it. I have some money." But, luckily I didn't do it because it, in The Matrix it cost them $5 million to, at the end to get it all right. But the whole sword fight where, the bloods, the Blood Gods, fights, Stephen Dorff, the blood, becomes the Blood Gods. I mean, the whole story. The, that…

18:20Jawad MirYeah

18:21Theo Van de Sande... That was all digital. And, digital company went bankrupt and then, six, seven, eight months later we have to reshoot it and, we have to build the whole… The whole, temple again, the under-underearth temple for the, for the sword fight. We build it bigger because we want to have more action, angles, and then we did-redid it all. So it's, it's, it-it's-it's really very interesting to see how-how-how The Matrix has looked a lot at us. If you analyze it and if you see the quality of light, the cyan, that was…

18:57Jawad MirVery similar

18:58Theo Van de Sande... It was new. Yeah, but it was new in that time.

19:00Jawad MirYeah.

19:00Theo Van de SandeThey did it already a little bit in the commercials, but they did not do it at all. So I wanted to have a real other look in... Specifically in the start with the, with the blood scene. That's like a complete complicated, way of lighting. We wanted to have the blood,.. I saw the blood as a, as a separate character, especially on the end, because in the script it was the blood gods, is-is in this big fight. And so from the beginning you see blood that needs to get to you, and that's why, in the first scene, I-I, synched the camera up with strobes. The, that means that you… exposure takes place during a flash of the strobe when the shutter is open. That mean…

19:43Theo Van de Sande... You exposure is very short. And when, exposure is very short, your image is very sharp. So the m… the movement is not a movement that's created by the blur of the motion. Because if you do 25, 50s of a second and you move fast, then everything is blurred. And the blur, your brains makes that to a movement. But if you don't do that and you give it the flashes and the blood's, the blood's, the blood drops are, not soft, but they are really sharp. It becomes, particulated. In a sense it becomes like parts, becomes, aggressive. And that's how we did the first, the first scene. But I created also an, because it's a party, so we went for… when you come into this party is really an, a real good vibe in... There was nothing. We created completely that,.. And-and also, I used the lights, in the back, coming into the camera, seven xenon lights.

20:49Theo Van de SandeThey-they were moved by people, to create this wild, element. So, and we did a lot of handheld of course, and local lens and everything. Everything what's necessary to create that sexy vibe. But, the moment it stops and the blood starts, coming down, that moment is, very important because that moment the other, the other strobes starts with the cameras, and they are lighting the-the drops and the other, a-all the lights. I let still go in the, in the strobe, but when the strobe is not there, the strobe that we have installed in the scene, it's not there to light the blood. The blood is suddenly sharp. And-and…

21:34Theo Van de Sande... And-and that, and that creates that-that harshness of the blood. When-when you s… you have the, when you have, Wesley on one side, when the group opens, and then the other side, and the other side is only lit with this, strobe light from the blood. The blood is like alive. It's like alive. And…

22:01Jawad MirIt…

22:01Theo Van de SandeAnd…

22:02Jawad MirIt is.

22:02Theo Van de SandeYeah. So…

22:04Jawad MirIt is. And I…

22:04Theo Van de SandeYeah

22:04Jawad Mir... I'll tell you, I'll tell you a funny story. Yesterday, and I was watching it again.

22:08Theo Van de SandeYeah.

22:08Jawad MirI was flying, I was flying from, San Francisco to Toronto. And I was watching it on my, on my iPad, and that scene came up. And you know, when you're watching in a crowd, like when something like violent or…... Comes up, you're like, "Okay, what... Are people looking over?" And it was, I felt so awkward watching it because it was so real and authentic, like all the…

22:29Theo Van de SandeYeah

22:30Jawad Mir... The whole blood, that actually the guy next to me, his head kind of turned over and he's like, "Which movie is this?" And I'm like, "Blade." He's like, "Oh, it looks cool." And that was it. And this movie…

22:40Theo Van de SandeYeah.

22:40Jawad MirBut that-that's the kind of impact that scene was. Like, the fact that you're sitting in public and you're feeling awkward, like, what the hell are you watching? Like, all these people and…... Soaked and soaked in blood. Yeah.

22:51Theo Van de SandeYou know, you talked about working with Stephen, Norrington. If-if, totally up to you brought it up, so I would leave it up to you. Obviously, the film that he created was wonderful. Like, you know… ... And sometimes, not all the time, sometimes some individuals, they do great work, but they may not be great in terms of social, you know, connection…

23:13Jawad MirYeah, of course

23:13Theo Van de Sande... With other people.

23:14Jawad MirOf course.

23:14Theo Van de SandeWhat-what-what kind of problems or disagreements you guys went through on the set? An example or two, if you're willing to share it. I did not have any disagreements…

23:24Jawad MirOh, you didn't

23:24Theo Van de Sande... Because we-we…

23:25Jawad MirOkay.

23:25Theo Van de SandeNo, we not. But I walked away from the set and I tell you why. Because, my crew, he would be nasty to the gaffer, for example, for no reason, just to-to-to show his power. And I-I said to the, "Hey, come, don't do that." I mean, and a certain moment, he really, went too far and I said, "Hey, I'm-I'm,.. That's not, it's not, it's not cool. I-I want it to stop because, you-you exploit the situation that you are the director and-and-and so on." And then he said, "Well, what are you? What are you? You-you hold up your meter and you say to your assistant 4.5, and he says to stop, and then we shoot." I was s… I was surprised by such a reaction. I said, "and who are you? You say action and cut." So, and I walked away. And I walked away. I-I… I really thought that's it, and then walked away and then I called my wife and called my agent and said, "Hey, I'm off the film.

24:28Theo Van de SandeI'm gonna go," whatever. "No, you cannot do that. You're gonna be sued." And, I don't give a shit. I go back to Amsterdam. That's it. I cannot... I go for this guy through fire and water if it's necessary to make the story well. So, to be like that, I cannot work like that. It has nothing to do with the film, nothing to do with the story. We had…

24:51Jawad MirYeah. I get it

24:51Theo Van de Sande... We were very good together. Only just a human thing. And, my good friend producer called me and said, "Hey, may..." C… I said, "Hey, Theo, do you wanna talk about it with, Steve?" He said, "Absolutely. No problem. I can talk but on one condition," because the union was already there. And the studio also. I mean, New Line was there. And, I said, "One condition. One representative of the studio, one representative of the studio, of the studio and one rep of the union is there while I have this discussion." And we discussed and, I said, "Hey, Steve, I told you cannot do that." He said, "Oh, I wasn't aware of that I was…" "... Constant doing this." I said, "Come on, you're a very smart guy. Don't, look, he was 33. I was, I had done already 40 features. And I just... So I'm not somebody who wants to do him harm or somebody. I, work as hard as possible to get that fantastic idea that is already, because of his social, I say that his social, missing.

26:01Theo Van de SandeHis, he didn't have social capacities. And, so, I said to him, "look, I, if that wasn't the case, then I would continue." And I said, "But Theo, if I promise not to do it anymore," and suddenly I,.. And because he said, "Really, I don't realize that I was, abusing people." And I said, "Yeah, you were. You were. You're, you're smart enough. But, I come back. No problem. But on one condition. If it happens again, I'm gone." "But if I don't know when it happens, how can I, " "... How do I know?" He's smart.

26:45Jawad MirYeah.

26:45Theo Van de SandeI said to him, "Very simple. I will tell you, and I will go." "So it is not that difficult." And so we, I walked away. And suddenly we had this conversation and the union said, "Okay, we continue. We lost half a day." And they walked out of the, out of the office, and who's there? Wesley comes, passes me the... Wes… Wesley. Perfect. And I went to a, very classic setting to the, to the... Because there were everybody, 26 departments had walked away. 26, sorry, 26 people from different departments walked away…

27:27Jawad MirWow

27:27Theo Van de Sande... Had walked away. And so and they said, every... And so I said, "I have to talk with everybody." So I went to a truck, the loads, and I stand on the truck like a, like a union guy ta… talking and trying to get this crew together. And I said, "Listen, this is not between you and, Wesley." "Nah, but he's awful," they said. And, "Okay, it's gonna change. I've talked to him and,.. But you go, you stay on and e… I see what's gonna happen, okay? But that's nothing to do with m… my relationship with him. I walked away." And so I said, "No, we're gonna go as well." So, we stopped this and we started the next day, again, continued. I mean, we…

28:15Jawad MirAnd…

28:15Theo Van de Sande... We sped up, sped up a little bit and... And he never, he never was like that anymore. Because in fact, you know, like a Brit, very good humor, a li… a little dry. And sometimes he drifted away to a little bit exploiting the, talking down on people and then I said, "Oh, okay." Then we would continue. It was funny in effect. It was very funny, but this

28:42Jawad MirWow

28:42Theo Van de Sande... But in a bad way. So most of the time.

28:45Jawad MirAnd how far into production did this happen?

28:48Theo Van de SandeThis happened, I think four, three weeks, four weeks. It ha… There were alread… already a lot of situations that we thought, "Wait, it cannot go on like that." And this was just an, dental situation in a, in a big set. And, so it's after, it was after a while because, there were quite some ac… incidents had happened already.

29:16Jawad MirIt is so interesting. Almost so many films, not all, you know, even films like Aliens, the James Cameron version, the…

29:25Theo Van de SandeOf course

29:25Jawad Mir... There was a big revolt against James Cameron, and Sigourney Weaver kinda came in between. All these films that will go through hell, whether it's on set or post-production or budget, most of them come up on a very good end. Like, I don't know, I don't know how Blade did at the box office, but it became such a cult classic. I was never a fan of Wesley Snipes. I mean…

29:49Jawad Mir... I'm sure he's a... But that role was just perfect for him. Like, he…

29:54Theo Van de SandeYeah

29:54Jawad Mir... Fitted into that role as you would wear a glove on your hand. And it…

29:57Theo Van de SandeYeah, it was also... Yeah. Yeah, he created that glove as well. He was producer as well.

30:02Jawad MirYeah, I… But still, just to be in that…

30:04Theo Van de SandeYeah

30:04Jawad Mir... Character, like, he was really good at it. He was really good.

30:09Theo Van de SandeYeah. Absolutely

30:09Jawad Mir... There is, what... Aside from all that set stuff, like, you know, the social element…

30:16Theo Van de SandeYeah

30:16Jawad Mir... What was the most fun day and the most difficult day on the set, and why? Was it filming a specific scene or just…

30:28Theo Van de SandeThere's so many scenes. I mean

30:30Jawad MirI know

30:31Theo Van de Sande... So many scenes. So many. I mean, we had 3,000…

30:34Jawad MirIf you…

30:35Theo Van de Sande... Shots or something like that in the film. It's, like, insane. I did once a film with 90 shots, and there was 3,000. So well, which scenes? Oh, yeah, I like the scenes when, what's her name? Bush, the counterp… or the female lead… when C is going through, his, l… layer, and finds,.. Just until the moment he's discovered by Kris Kristofferson, when C sees and hears and looks at, who he is in fact, also, because that was totally the opposite as the action scenes, and I had a separate camera for that, and separate lenses. Not camera. The camera was static and very slow movement and very slow, and very static to create that quietness of Blade in his world. And then of course the action scenes, are amazing. The…

31:35Jawad MirIncredible

31:36Theo Van de Sande... We had very good stunt coordination. And I had, it was a payback because just before the film started I wanted to have... Coming closer to the, to the shooting, I saw how good the action rehearsals were. I was there and I thought, "Shit, I, the, we have, I have fought for anamorphic, and now h… we have anamorphic, but it's, it is not flexible enough to be as flexible as we need for this film. So I need to figure out something." So I had worked as a movie camera, brand-new camera, brand-new camera, and I, the new movie camera. It was a mini movie cam. And but that had no de… de-anamorphizer for the viewfinder.

32:17Theo Van de SandeBut I knew the, I knew, and I went to visit, Panavision, what was about 300 meters from 3… 300 yards from where we were shooting, and I had done films with, Panavision, and they said, "Oh, you..." Because I wanted to have a Steadicam, handheld on the same, the same way, that they could use a Steadicam and handheld for the harsher work. But they did not have lenses that fitted, and I, a… if I would need the lens that I use for handheld on the Steadicam, it needed to be an other lens, and h… need a little bit other lens, a complete other lens. And I said, "I cannot do it." I, so I came up with the idea to, Gab… to call Gabriel B… B… Bauer in Austria. He was, in that time, still independent, movie cam. Because it was, now it's, it's bought by Arriflex. It was a big competition 'cause…

33:16Theo Van de Sande... Movie cam… camera was a better camera already from the s… from the get-go. And, Gabriel Bauer was, not yet bought out by Arriflex. So, I called him, says, "Hey, there is a monopoly of anamorphic in the whole United States, and that's Panavision. You cannot really do in a good way another anamorphic film if you don't deal with Panavision. So if you can give me two de-anamorphizers for the m… for the mini m… movie cam before…

33:46Theo Van de Sande... In two weeks, then I will change my equipment and I will shoot with the movie cam and this, with,.." And then you have a foot in the door in the States. Two, before the two weeks were over, I had two de-anamorphizers created for the camera. So I had, like, an, a handheld camera, a sound camera, that was as big as a 60-millimeter camera because the Clairmont had very little z… very little anamorphic lenses. Very special. A little distorting, but that's exactly what I wanted for the action scenes. And then the wider scenes, the quiet scenes, the story of Blade outside the fighting and outside, and the story of her outside, very quiet and very steady and very big and not distorted and not with a… anamorphic. I was working on not to get the anamorphic effect while everybody's working now to get the anamorphic ef… mistakes.

34:47Theo Van de SandeI've worked 40 years to get the lenses better, and now h… 'cause I tested all the lenses for this film because they didn't want to shoot, New Line didn't want to shoot anamorphic. I had to defend it and…

35:00Jawad MirYeah

35:00Theo Van de Sande... And explain them why. And now I had, and so I had to find a solution for this camera, and so I had this unbelievable practical cameras for this, the, for the fight scenes and then the wider. With the ArriScope. There was a series of lenses, anamorphics ArriScope lenses, are unbelievable. They don't have any distortion, don't have any of these mistakes of the anamorphic. And there's no anamorphic, arty shit. It is just a very strong lens, but that's why n… nobody uses it because when they shoot anamorphic, they want to have that un… unper… not perfect either, while I was working on the opposite and do with light my stuff. So it's a, it's a whole different, approach of how you make image. It's, it's very funny to go…

35:51Jawad MirYeah

35:51Theo Van de Sande... Through that whole process.

35:53Jawad MirNo, I'm, I'm a huge fan of anamorphic and, it's, and it's, something that I noticed, obviously, I mean, I, as when I was watching on the plane, because I have an anamorphic monitor, and I was like, "I wish I was watching this on an anamorphic monitor."

36:04Theo Van de SandeYeah.

36:04Jawad MirBut, it's, one thing that you mentioned about which was so good, and I noticed it, you know, in every movie that you make, especially action or thriller or sci-fi, even in a drama, you know, there is, there is, action sequence or there is a moment of climax, and then there's calm moment. Like, you have to kinda go like this. Like, you have to bring the audience…

36:27Jawad Mir... To calm, to make them rest, and then go up again to a next scene, like, whatever the, you know, the plot takes you, and come back. But one thing that movies nowadays, with the excep… exception of some, when those scenes that are calm and just timid that your audience needs to sort of just rely and rest and focus on the story, sometimes they're shot in such a way where either the shots are too tight, like, you know, just over the shoulders.

36:53Theo Van de SandeYeah.

36:53Jawad MirYou don't, you don't see the environment, like a TV kind of approach. Or they're very, the camera is moving around a lot. But what I loved about what you just said, and I noticed that, is that in all those scenes where there was no action sequence and where you were trying to learn about who Blade is, it was just so calm.

37:11Jawad MirIt was just so calm, and that…

37:13Theo Van de SandeYeah

37:13Jawad Mir... Works so well in contrast to the fast-paced action sequences that you have.

37:19Theo Van de SandeYeah. Yeah, absolutely, and there it was, working together with the art department, and Steve was very, sensitive for that. Visual, the f… the film is visually very strong, very strong in breathing, in and out breathing of your story. From your action and then, calming down, and then, on all levels it calms down in framing, in light, in everything. And then when we, when we go berserk, when we are in the, top level of the building of Dorf, we see…

37:59Theo Van de Sande... Where he has his party, where he kills, one of the guys, the policeman, he bites him, and this whole weird situation. That has movement and it has, it's… the camera's a little off, but the moment we have is Blade and it's interior and the camera's not off. The camera is just observing and learning. And yeah, I mean, we could do, we could very, could go very fast 'cause everything is built, huh? The whole thing. There's no, not really... The only thing that was for most of the m… for the biggest part, in the location was, Kris Kristofferson lair, the big factory. It's unbelievable.

38:42Jawad MirYeah.

38:42Theo Van de SandeIt was, unbelievable. In the middle of, LA somewhere. Insane.

38:48Jawad MirYeah, it was, it was really cool on the camera.

38:50Theo Van de SandeYeah.

38:50Jawad MirLike, visually. I mean, just being in that space.

38:53Theo Van de SandeYeah.

38:53Jawad MirBut yeah, that's, and that's another thing, right? Like, with superhero movies or sci-fi movies, sometimes directors or even the s… the script goes really high-end on the environments, but, you know…

39:06Theo Van de SandeYeah

39:07Jawad Mir... Spielberg is really good at not doing that, and Blade was another one of those film where you have that advancement, but there has to be a contrast to the reality that people are living in right now…

39:17Theo Van de SandeExactly

39:18Jawad Mir... To connect them.

39:19Theo Van de SandeYeah. Yeah, and then…

39:22Jawad MirYeah

39:22Theo Van de Sande... Also, because, my experience, of course, coming from a low budget, world in Holland, up till, starting to do bigger films in the United States, let's say, the film that I did as my first film, I don't know if you ever saw that, really the... Wait a little bit until my restored, five, sorry, f… 4K Blu-ray comes out because it's amazing. It's, Miracle Mile. It's my first film that I did in…

39:56Jawad MirOkay

39:56Theo Van de Sande... It's a fantastic film, fantastic film. And very little money. 3 million, $3.5 million with a lot of visual effects. End of the world, plays there, and it's locked in time. So on a certain moment, every shot, it becomes a little lighter in the morning. It's a very difficult film to make, but I'm very proud of it, and especially we have restored it. And I'm gonna now, next week, I'm starting to restore, because the Criterion Collection called me, if I could supervise my second film in the United States, Crossing Delancey with Amy Irving. So…

40:33Jawad MirWow

40:34Theo Van de Sande... Next week I start. I said, "I can do it, but I'm not in LA." So, "Oh, we can do it in New York." Said, "No, I'm also not in New York." So but we sometimes do it in, I said, "Okay, if we find a place where I can, huh, where I am. Can we, for example, do it in Amsterdam?" And I had just experience of r… doing remote control timing in Amsterdam for my film in Serbia a year ago. So I had a very good post house. Yeah, I have a very good post. For me it's not a problem, the guy said. I just come to Amsterdam and you do your job there. We send up the tapes and the data and you do, you do your job there. He understood. And, so I'm, I'm doing it here, two minutes from my, yeah, on the, on my bike to the post-production house and

41:30Jawad MirNice

41:30Theo Van de Sande... And I t… re-time, Amy Irving in, Cro… Crossing Delancey.

41:35Jawad MirSo your first…

41:35Theo Van de SandeSo I'm doing more film. Yeah.

41:37Jawad MirThat... So what's your first film called? I'm just going through IMDb right now.

41:41Theo Van de SandeMir… Mir… Miracle Mile.

41:43Jawad MirMiracle Mile. And then your s…

41:45Theo Van de SandeAnthony Ed…

41:46Jawad MirSecond one

41:46Theo Van de Sande... Anthony Edwards and,.. Oh, sorry. M… M… Miracle Mile is the first one. The second is, Crossing Delancey. That means Delancey Street, crossing Delancey Street.

41:57Jawad MirGotcha.

41:57Theo Van de SandeIt's a very sweet film. And Miracle Mile is an absurd story. It's, it's very good film. It's, when it was, when I came to, the States, my last film in Holland got the Oscar for Best Foreign Film. So I was invited to do a film in the States. And when I came there, Miracle Mile was one of the 10 most famous scripts going around in Hollywood that wasn't made yet. And, if you see the film, you understand why, because it doesn't have a happy end. Oh, sorry. I spill it now a little bit.

42:37Jawad MirThat's fine. I was just reading the premise. I mean, it sounds quite interesting and of something you haven't heard of.

42:42Theo Van de SandeIt sounds, it sounds not for $3 million, that's for sure.

42:45Jawad MirYeah.

42:45Theo Van de SandeAnd then, and then, four years later, I did exactly the same piece, Miracle Mile, for Volcano, but we'd shot somewhere else and we built a whole street. We built a set for, $5 million. And the film, Miracle Mile itself was only $3 million, $3.5 million, the whole film, with all the visual effects and all the stuff. And the $100 million volcano had exactly the same piece, but had, of course, more stuff to do, and a volcano in the middle of LA. So you see the difference. And while I was doing... And the… you will like that. While I was doing the volcano, in the weekends I was shooting with my ex-partner now, a documentary that got a Oscar nomination, a documentary all alone with her and a cameraman in Downtown, in the Lower East Side, dangerous a… area, with my old Arriflex camera. And while during the week I was doing, the $100 million volcano film.

43:48Jawad MirOh, wow.

43:49Theo Van de SandeSo somewhere in between is my,.. It doesn't matter to me. This is the... I'm doing,.. I enjoy it. I en… I enjoy what,.. All the difference, all the different sty… jobs or styles. I'm, I'm quickly bored, so I don't... I don't want to be typecast as what you…

44:09Jawad MirYeah

44:09Theo Van de Sande... As a DP. You become typecast as well in LA, in Hollywood. If you do action…

44:15Jawad MirI think, yeah

44:15Theo Van de Sande... You just, you have to be... You have to do action, while my resume is all over the place. That's also why I am, not, so-called, what's happening with him. He does all different films. Yeah, because I like it.

44:30Jawad MirYeah.

44:30Theo Van de SandeVery simple.

44:32Jawad MirI mean, it's very easy in, even in Hollywood or even in outside of Hollywood, like, when you do one job or even, like, one type of film, you become... Y… you kind of get attracted to the similar stories, but…

44:45Theo Van de SandeYeah

44:45Jawad Mir... But it's, it's so important to have diversify yourself because for your own sanity, for your own growth, and, you know, for creative juices flowing in different directions. You know, one thing I want to sort of talk about, as we kind of come close to it, the film, there's, as you know, another Blade movie being made, or it's already completed…

45:04Theo Van de SandeYeah

45:05Jawad Mir... At least. Was that something that ever came to you

45:09Theo Van de SandeNo

45:10Jawad Mir... Or even consultation-wise or anything or...?

45:13Theo Van de SandeNo. It's very, even worse. The Blu-ray that I supervised, and the transfer that I supervised, got, enormous, good, reviews… ... Especially the Blu-ray. Because I... Shot by shot I have brought it back to the original, and even better. I mean, without losing any filmic quality. And, in... Two years ago, one and a half years ago, Warner Brothers, I discovered that, makes a 4K Blu-ray of, a 4K version of the film. And I would have done, of course, for nothing, and I'm very fast in it. I'm very fast at timing because I, my image, my... It's not like that I start discovering in the timing what I have done. I am coming from film, where I had to, where I never could change, so it was always done. So, I had done, I would have done it for nothing, for just supervising to get the same quality that... Of even better quality if they want it. But the 4K, I hope you didn't see the 4K, you probably not, 4K version of Blade.

46:26Theo Van de SandeOne, because that's completely overblown with HDR, and it's typical

46:31Jawad MirYeah

46:32Theo Van de Sande... Yes, very pity. Big pity. Big pity.

46:35Jawad MirI didn't see 4K because I would've been able to…

46:37Theo Van de SandeOh, luckily

46:38Jawad Mir... Tell. Because it's, it's... Yeah, one, that's my thing with 4K too. I mean, it's, it's good in some cases, but sometimes…

46:44Theo Van de SandeYeah

46:44Jawad Mir... It becomes so sharp in some cases that you just don't feel…

46:47Theo Van de SandeYeah, but it's,.. No, but that's, that's not, the, it... That's not the problem so much. It's not... Th… that's more, how you

46:54Jawad MirProcess it

46:55Theo Van de Sande... I... Yeah, not even pro… process it. How you light it and how you approach it… ... And, from the get-go. I mean, I do already since 2005, 2008, I have not done any film anymore because I didn't want to get romantic about film. I wanted to help the digital, the digital, because the digital was clearly going to pass in quality…

47:22Jawad MirYeah

47:22Theo Van de Sande... The film. And if that's, the case or not the case, you can go talk to Chris Nolan. But, it is the case, and he as well will, does affect already because there's no theater in f… who shows film.

47:38Jawad MirYeah.

47:38Theo Van de SandeSo what you see, and Chris, "Oh, I shot on film." Yeah, but this film is only data. It's just, it's not that he wants to shoot like that because it's film, because film is on the set more precious. So you do one shot, and, that's a take, and that take is from action to cut. In video, you don't... You say a reset, and everybody goes back to the beginning, while you keep rolling. And an operator after five, six times has not the same energy, the same, the same focusing as the first take. So it doesn't... It's, it's the en… it's the energy, it's the discipline of film that makes film in… more interesting.

48:23Jawad MirYeah.

48:23Theo Van de SandeBut I do that on f… I do that on digital. I used my same, my same tools as I do on film and, but on the s… on the spot. I can be in… very intuitive because all the things I can change just during the shot itself, and I can just leave the outside three stops underexposed and move in and change it on the, on the spot, three cameras. I do it myself. So it's very, has become very intuitive. But still you need to set the limits for what you wanna show already before you make the image, and that's, that's the big, secret of filmmaking, of being a cinematographer. If you look…

49:09Theo Van de Sande... All the good cinematographers, they are around now, the good ones, they all are, very,.. They radiate confidence, in their image because they have…

49:24Jawad MirYeah

49:24Theo Van de Sande... Already processed the image before they push the button. And, the filming itself is just,.. O… of course, they use the tools to play with it up till the moment it comes into the, into the camera, but, they know what they're doing, and they are not... It's not like, hey, oh, that looks good. The whoa, that looks good, style.

49:49Jawad MirYeah. Are you, are you l… going to see the new Blade, or you're just gonna pass, or you don't know?

49:56Theo Van de SandeI think I will see it if I see it. But I probably see it on the,.. I'm, I, yeah. I don't know. It depends who's doing it because it's, it was delayed.

50:07Jawad MirKind of.

50:08Theo Van de SandeIt was something

50:09Jawad MirYeah. I don't know if it was COVID or if it was something else.

50:12Theo Van de SandeIt was COVID.

50:13Jawad MirBut…

50:13Theo Van de SandeYeah.

50:13Jawad MirYeah.

50:14Theo Van de SandeAnd I don't know i… I don't know if they pick it up. At least Wesley is not doing it.

50:19Jawad MirYeah.

50:19Theo Van de SandeRight?

50:20Jawad MirMa… Maher… Mahershala Ali is doing it.

50:22Theo Van de SandeYeah, so I'm not gonna go to Blade then. I go to another film that is…... Called Blade, because Wesley is Blade. There's no doubt about it.

50:30Jawad MirYeah.

50:30Theo Van de SandeI mean, there's no doubt about that. Everything in that film, everything in the film comes from that character. That's why it became an icon for every superhero film that follows, for, other films as well. I mean, Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, the whatever they're called, the X-Men all started, The Matrix, all wa… all after this.

50:54Jawad MirYeah.

50:54Theo Van de SandeThis is absolutely a fact that I did not know when I shot it. I heard it only when I was asked in 2008 maybe, 2009, that somebody, mentioned it, that, Marvel, was in fact bankrupt when, Blade came out. And Blade was the first real hero, Superman, sorry, h… h… hero, superhero movie.

51:23Jawad MirYeah.

51:23Theo Van de SandeAnd for sure the first Black superhero movie. So, that I didn't know, that we were so strong. I felt it when we were doing it that we did the right thing and that we made the right choices, and the result was fabulous. And then when, Steve started to... Steve, yeah, has n… not at all, been involved. He thought it was archaic, the color correction of film, 'cause he had done, video, I think, and he hadn't done... He didn't wanna sit, for two hours in the cinema to say, "Oh, a little bit more blue, a little bit more red." So, after one time, I said, "Theo, you do it." And I had already, out of experience of Volcano, what was a big special effects film, and where f… the visual effects were digital and the film was film. But the digital ef… the visual effects were made independently of the quality of my film, and my film I couldn't change.

52:29Theo Van de SandeI couldn't say, "Okay, the sky, the, by night, the sky of this shot is a little less blue." No. It was all... So what did the visual effects department do? They changed my image, part of the image that was, where the digital effect had to fit in. They changed my image into, so that their effects better matched.

52:52Theo Van de SandeBut I could not change the, that what they had changed. I mean, so l… having learned that in Volcano, that I was stuck with visual effects that were, in a world that was changed, in contra... In relation to what I had shot, my world. That I, made a whole, when, Steve left post-production, said, "Hey, Theo, you do it," he had a lot of confidence in what I was planning to do. So every shot that was a, had a visual effect, I took the shot, a B negative from the shot before and a B negative of the shot afterwards for, like, three seconds. And I made a reel of that. Like a 10 m… 10 minute reel of all the visual effects and what was before and afterwards. Made, and I timed that reel as to know what it was gonna be.

53:54Theo Van de SandeBecause I wouldn't be able to change that. So if there was a visual effect for approval, offered to us, then I say, "Okay, put that and that, before and afterwards, and show it to us." So I never had to say, "Oh, this is fantastic. Oh, this is not at all good. This is, the sky is too red. The this..." I would, I would just say, "And you like it?" And they would say, "Whoa, it looks good." They w… or they would say, "Yeah, the shots before and afters look a little different." "No. Your shots look different. So if you think that this is good, you have to go to an optician. Sorry, but that's not the way, it can work."

54:36Jawad MirYeah.

54:36Theo Van de SandeSo I changed the control, and that's what I learned, from the digital to, from the film world to the digital world, that I had to create the control again and create the technology of making your image and control it. So

54:55Jawad MirWow

54:56Theo Van de Sande... Yeah, that's, that's, what I do now. I mean, I, yeah, I don't correct on the set. I use… I don't use LUTs. I use a LUT on the camera and do it with lights, like I did always do.

55:11Jawad MirYeah.

55:12Theo Van de SandeAnd do…

55:12Jawad MirThat's the way to do it

55:13Theo Van de SandeYeah, only when I want to do something special…

55:16Jawad MirYeah

55:16Theo Van de Sande... I show the director what I'm gonna do, or so he sees it. So then he knows what it's gonna be, and then when it comes out differently, then he knows already, hey, that's not what we, what we wanted. And I make, I make stills, and I correct the stills and send it to the producer, to the studio, to the writer even, if they want to, and they, "Oh, they all look so fantastic." Okay, so it comes back bad from the post-production house, then I show them, say, "Hey, this is what we liked. So whatever happens afterwards, I can correct that later. But be aware that this is what it is, and this is what I'm starting with at the end."

55:54Jawad MirYeah. That's, that's awesome.

55:56Theo Van de SandeAnd that's how I…

55:57Jawad MirAnd, no, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing all that detail, you know…

56:02Theo Van de SandeYeah. No

56:02Jawad Mir... That you've sort of go through. No, it's good because I…

56:05Theo Van de SandeYeah

56:05Jawad Mir... You know, the people who listen to the podcast, they wanna learn. I always wanna learn, and that's, that's fantastic. And I mean, one thing I would love to do, maybe after you're done with your next film, I would love to have you on again and talk about your first film and your second film and, you know, if that's something of interest, I would love to chat about that. Obv… obviously, I have to see it first, which I haven't…

56:28Theo Van de SandeYeah

56:28Jawad Mir... So I have to see it and find out.

56:30Theo Van de SandeThe, my first American film, but there are, there are some very interesting, European films I did, that, because I, when I got here, of course, I would go after Miracle Mile. Miracle Mile was unique because I just came in and I had... It was not an urban film. It was not an, it was like an, complete new film. It was, LA as you never have seen. I was the only one who was shooting LA like that. Everyone was, misting it up, and low contrast filters, and, wetting down the streets. I had 30 days that I had to, that I had to do, to have the same quality in the streets and everything else because it was in 30 days I would do, let's say 300, 400 shots that are, were cut together and as one, as one atmosphere. So I, was, it was a big gamble, and it, I luckily I did not have rain in th… in this time because I did everything dry. It was unique in LA bec… everybody created that, James Cameron style of the…

57:34Theo Van de Sande... His first film.

57:35Jawad MirThe Terminator. The Terminator.

57:36Theo Van de SandeThe Terminator. The…

57:37Jawad MirYeah, I was gonna say that. Yeah.

57:37Theo Van de SandeEverybody was doing, everybody was doing The Terminator, and I was doing the opposite. It was wide angle, and calm, and by night in LA. Really good. Really, I'm very, I'm very proud of that film, especially now after the 4K. So I'm now interested in restoring. That was, because, most of the films, they never called me to do the color correction. And the color correction in the more the digital world develops, the less they needed us in the sense of like we can…

58:08Jawad MirYeah

58:08Theo Van de Sande... You get, you get the color artist. So you get the kind of a, it's about the sauce, and it's not about the meat anymore. And…

58:16Jawad MirYeah

58:16Theo Van de Sande... You need to, it's not about the meat either alone, but it is the combination of the two that makes the dinner. You know what I mean?

58:24Jawad MirYeah.

58:25Theo Van de SandeAnd…

58:26Jawad Mir100%.

58:27Theo Van de SandeYeah. And that's, and that's, every time a fight. So I'm doing it now beforehand and have, be 70% ready, so if they come in and there's somebody else and i… I'm not invited or I was doing another film, then I send my, stills over and let them hopefully do it, do it like that. But

58:49Jawad MirYeah

58:49Theo Van de Sande... It is a big, that became a big, a big problem in the, that was, the hybrid period between film and digital. And everybody says, everybody said that they had a solution, but nobody had. So everybody from the studio, they would, they would trust the post-production houses because what they saw was not that good, because it wasn't ready yet. It was just in high definition dailies from, what somebody had done by night, by night, and had fabricated by night, but had nothing to do with your vision. So…

59:28Jawad MirYeah

59:28Theo Van de Sande... So it was, it was a frustrating time, but, I've, I've worked hard to that, to get over that. And a lot of things, came from the ASC, the technical committee, who… ... Involved all the associate members. That's a big thing. The associate members were all, people from Warner Brothers, Sony, the high tech guys…

59:51Jawad MirYeah

59:51Theo Van de Sande... Who are associate members of the ASC, very, they were very proud of being that, but they had no function than being associate member until we were just thrown out and suddenly didn't get, to the control anymore. And so everything, started to, we got a technical committee. I, be there for so many evenings, and like 80% I didn't understand a word of what they are saying because it was all high level, all on digital, and, it was, it was very difficult. But I learned that part as much as I could because I knew that I had to deal with it, and that's what I did. And so the very few, DPs of my age, did that. They just hoped that they could do another film.

1:00:38Jawad MirYeah.

1:00:38Theo Van de SandeAnd, for the rest they would shoot and light a monitor on the set. And what happened afterwards, yeah.

1:00:45Jawad MirThat's awesome.

1:00:46Theo Van de SandeYeah, I al…

1:00:46Jawad MirThat's awesome.

1:00:47Theo Van de SandeYeah. I al… try to, control that. From Blade, on Blade I did it very well.

1:00:52Jawad MirYeah

1:00:53Theo Van de Sande... The, that's, that's, that's a combination from film and digital. It was difficult.

1:00:59Jawad MirYeah. Well, again, what a great film Blade is. And I think it was way ahead of its time. ... Like I said, I saw it in 2010, and I saw it yesterday, and an amazing film, not just from the stylistic standpoint, but just, you know, the story and the grounded. And I…

1:01:14Jawad Mir... Love chatting with, love chatting with you, Theo, and I would love to have you on again, whenever you are…

1:01:20Theo Van de SandeOkay

1:01:20Jawad Mir... Available. It would be an honor talking to you again.

1:01:23Theo Van de SandeSo, around, I will probably be back in, from Italy, half in May, and then I go first here half in May. So

1:01:34Jawad MirThat's fine

1:01:34Theo Van de Sande... From that moment on, it doesn't matter to me where it is because in Br… in Brazil I have a very good server and very good internet, so we can…

1:01:43Jawad MirOkay

1:01:43Theo Van de Sande... Chat like we do now.

1:01:46Jawad MirSounds good.

1:01:46Theo Van de SandeBut, okay.

1:01:46Jawad MirI'll look forward to doing that. Thank you so much again for your time, and thank you…

1:01:50Theo Van de SandeThank you

1:01:50Jawad Mir... For making part, being, not, being part, an important part of, Blade. Thank you so much.

1:01:54Theo Van de SandeOkay. Thank you.

1:01:56Jawad MirTake care, Theo.

1:01:57Theo Van de SandeBye-bye.

1:01:57Jawad MirBye-bye. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.