'South Asian Cinema Music', Producer, Shashi Ranjan

0:09Jawad MirWelcome back everyone to yet another episode of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast, The Making of Stories. Today my guest is a repeat guest, Shashi Ranjan, who was, the director of Netflix series, The Roshians. Today we're talking about music and lyrics in the South Asian film industry, particularly that in India, and how over the years it has sort of demised and lost its essence and originality by imitating the West… Western music. Also, just a little side note on the podcast, this podcast w… was initially started off as a podcast on DreamWorks film, then it kind of became on cinema, then TV series and cinema. While I'm still maintaining that, one of the things that I'm gonna incorporate every now and then is to have guests from people who are not in the industry, but they have an interesting story. So that's the key word now, it's the story, Kingdom of Dreams podcast, The Making of Stories. But again, I wanna reiterate the aspect of cinema and film will always be there. But I think at its core it's all about stories. But without further ado, here's my conversation with Shashi Ranjan.

1:10Jawad MirYou know, we talked about what we're gonna talk about, and I had a conversation about... S… with somebody about this, and I normally do, and then you mentioned it, that how there's music and lyrics in a film.

1:24Shashi RanjanYou know, basically music is in our DNA. Especially… ... Our region. Predominantly, this whole of North India, Pakistan, portions of Iraq, of Iran, Afghanistan, where music has played such predominant... And poetry, of course. The best of poets have come from this area, you know? So it's in… ingrained our... When the child is born, there is music. When you get married, there is music. Any occasion, your death has music. Everything has music in it. And the poetry, of course you have Ghalib from this area. You have 100 other poets, who have done, you know, great job. And I'm so, you know, kind of, frustrated with the kind of music India is producing right now, or for that matter even Pakistan. I mean, there are such talented guy like, Atif Aslam and so many others who have great voices, great talent, but the tunes.

2:36Shashi RanjanAnd the problem to my mind is this, Jawwad, that there is a traditional way of making our music. Joe, world when there is no other country or other civilization has, that we have a mukhda, we have a opening. Then we have an antara, and then we go into interludes. So this whole thing, Ame… American music or French music or no other music has this, only our music had that, you know? And that's gone because we are aping West all the time, and, all the tunes, they start from the high notes and they're going to other lyrics. There is no space for interlude. And that's why even today, or the old, songs when you hear, you remember the interludes. You exactly know what interlude is coming or what lines. After 40 years you can still hum the song, sing the song because the poetry was so deep-rooted. The meanings were so nice, and they played a very crucial part in our storytelling.

3:37Shashi RanjanSo the moment you take that out from your storytelling, it's very dry. Well, it works sometimes. There are certain stories where you don't need music, and I think some of the younger directors are doing a great job by not putting it. But the moment it comes at the right place and the right time, it's a magic. Your sense memory of any good Indian film or any film of this region is through dialogues and music. So Lafazee plays a very important part in, part in our culture, and which is diminishing day by day. It's a very sad situation.

4:17Jawad MirYeah.

4:17Shashi RanjanAnd it's like reason of, it's like reason of Jawwad

4:50Jawad MirYeah. Have you seen... I'll get to your point, but do you watch Coke Studio from Pakistan?

4:56Shashi RanjanYes, I do, and I think they're doing great job.

4:59Jawad MirSo I…

5:00Shashi RanjanGreat job

5:00Jawad Mir... I probably didn't watch most of it up until the two seasons ago because they were recreating a lot of classic songs, which I would listen to here and there, but I wouldn't listen to it throughout. But the last season, the season before that, they came up with original songs, original music, original artists, original parts of the wor… the country that they would go to and discover people. And I thought, I think that is amazing because it's something raw, it's something original.

5:28Shashi RanjanYes.

5:29Jawad MirAnd there's so much culture in those, right? So much culture.

5:33Shashi RanjanSo…

5:33Jawad MirAnd for me, and I'm so glad you said about the older songs. Even older songs for me, the '90s era, you know, even maybe a little bit of early 2000s I would say. But I... You're right, because I don't remember... I don't even remember many of the films, let alone music after…

5:51Shashi RanjanYou remember

5:52Jawad Mir... Early 2000s. I just don't, right?

5:55Shashi RanjanYeah.

5:55Jawad MirThere's like how many songs do you know? I mean, there's the songs that we all... Like, I was watching, when I was watching The Roshians with my wife And I'm not a '60s child or a '50s child, I'm a late '70s child, but I just... Any time a tune would come in, and the same thing happened with the Romantics and Salim Javed documentary, Angry Young Men, like I would know the songs. And she would be like…

6:19Shashi RanjanRight

6:20Jawad Mir... "How do you know the songs from the 1950s?" I'm like, "I don't know. I just do." Because that's what you do…

6:25Shashi RanjanIt's your sense memory.

6:26Jawad MirYeah. Is listening to those cassettes and everything.

6:29Shashi RanjanYeah. So it was amazing. And

6:33Jawad MirBut why do, but why do you think that's gone?

6:38Shashi RanjanLike I told you, the younger generation do not know the in… literature. I mean, our literature they don't read. They read, e… even Western literature. Look at the... You know, zubaan jitni bhi hai, chahe woh English hai, Hindi hai, Urdu hai, woh sab sikud rahi hai. They're all shrinking. All the languages are shrinking. You're taking, your slangs have become the language. You know, your WhatsApp language is now coming.

7:06Jawad MirYeah.

7:06Shashi RanjanYou don't know spellings. You do not know expression. People are losing expression. What language does to you is, or literature does it gives you vocabulary. It gives you a flight which is totally lacking, especially Urdu zubaan. Urdu zubaan has so much to give it. Jo flight Urdu mein hai, I don't think any language in the world has that.

7:32Jawad MirI agree.

7:33Shashi RanjanAnd it's, it's unfortunate, that, you know, the younger generations are not looking at that language.

7:41Jawad MirYeah. I couldn't agree more. I mean, for me, and I always wonder this, I say this to people that maybe I'm saying it because I speak Urdu, but you know, from what I have sort of... If you look at, forget about Ghalib and Iqbal and all of the poets, but if you just look at poetry in films, right? Like Gulzar, Javed Akhtar, Majrooh Sultanpuri, people like that. And if you... Majority of their work with some exceptions, if you listen to their lyrics, they just have so much deep meaning. They don't s… say…

8:12Shashi RanjanAbsolutely

8:12Jawad Mir... They don't say anything, but they say a lot. Like, for me, the most pivotal exam… I think I got into Urdu poetry, and Javed Akhtar a lot knowingly. I mean, there was also Mr. India, but when 1942: A Love Story soundtrack came out, I specifically remember it was about four months before I went to a library here in Canada, and it was in the section, and I didn't even know what it was, and I just popped in the CD and I listened to it. And I listened to that soundtrack over thousands and thousands of times.

8:43Shashi RanjanYeah.

8:43Jawad MirIt never... Because it has such deep meaning, you know?

8:46Shashi RanjanAbsolutely.

8:47Jawad MirAnd, you don't see that anymore. You just don't.

8:52Shashi RanjanJail Saab, the very first song which he wrote for a film called, Chalte, or wha… not Chalte. Tum Ko Dekha To Yeh Khayal Aya, Zindagi Dhup.

9:04Jawad MirYeah. The Jugdeep Singh one.

9:06Shashi RanjanJugdeep Singh. I mean, what a... A guy who just started writing song and he wrote it in 10 minutes. You know, it was Raman Kumar's film and,.. So you know, the lyrics, the words, main kahunga lafaz. Lafazi jo hai, jo lafz hai, woh aapke zehen ko ek aisa stimulation dete hain which remains forever. Uska jo chaashni hai na zubaan ki, usko bhulana bahut mushkil hai. Aur main, mujhe umeed hai ki aapke program ko bahut saare Pakistani aur Indians dekhte honge jo is zubaan ko samajhte hain. I really, you know, pray and advise them that speak your own language even though you have a conversational language or practical language like English wherever you work. But this is, this is the one which gives you that softness, that beauty, that flight, in your mind and in your heart is your Hindustani or Urdu.

10:12Jawad MirAnd that's even more interesting here in the Western part of the world. So, you know, I can speak Urdu fluently. My kids can understand it. They can't speak it, but, in the next generation or two it's just gone, right? Like, it's just completely gone.

10:30Shashi RanjanAbsolutely. Absolutely.

10:31Jawad MirAnd over there, over the... But do you also think... See, one of the things that I always wonder about the whole thing with English, which I understand, I mean, it's, it's a universal language. Everybody speaks it. You know, I speak it all the time. I'm sure you do. Everybody does. But do you think in that part of the world, aside from the reasons that we outlined, you know, WhatsApp and now there's AI and everything, there's also that approach of the fact that we were ruled by the British for a good 100 years almost, and that's still ingrained as us. Do you think that's also one of the reasons?

11:06Shashi RanjanI think there is some hangover, yes, Britishers have left for us. But that's a sad part that in spite of so many years bypassed, you still have that hangover. I think it has more to do with, you know, economics because, English is the language which gives you rozi roti. The zubaan which gives you roti, becomes your favorite zubaan. Unfortunately, it hasn't happened with our languages. So I guess that is one of the biggest reason. But I think ye sensitivity, hum jaise log, jo is tarah ke business mein hai jahan hum isko ubaar sakte hain, jahan hum ye khidmat kar sakte hain zubaan ki, woh humein karni chahiye. Aur mere jo walid marhum the, woh kyunki Urdu aur Farsi mein likhte the toh mujhse hamesha kaha karte ki mujhe bada afsoos hai ki meri library jo hai jismein 6,000, 7,000 bahut nayab Urdu ki kitaben thi Ki aisa na ho ki meri aulaad uss pe baith ke chaat pakodi khaye.

12:15Shashi RanjanSo apni zindagi mein koshish karna ki Urdu ki khidmat ho sake to zarur karna. And that's exactly I want… I'm doing it because I keep a Mushaira every year, with the Urdu poets and Hindi poets, this Ghalib-e-Jamni tehzeeb which we have, inherited to keep that alive and, keep the sensitivity of language. I'm very sensitive about language. My nuqtas, if my actor can't say za, then I get really pissed. I say, "You have no business to be on the set if you cannot say za, zha, gha." If your sheen khawf aapka durust nahin hai, say, "I'm sorry. Go home, learn, and come back." Main khatam sahi nahin kar sakta hoon. It has to be khatam.

13:04Jawad MirThat's interesting because I would… when we watch movies every now and then, I hear that word khatam, right? And I'm like, "Is it, is it like something to do with the dialect of certain parts of India or what it is?" But yeah, the kh… the kha is always missing, 100%.

13:20Shashi RanjanYeah, nukta. Nukta is evaporated. Aapne khuda ko khuda bana diya hai. Aap khuda hai, khuda ka meaning kuch aur hota hai, aur khuda ka matlab kuch aur hota hai ki khod… khodne wale ko khuda kehte hain. Toh har teesra actor khuda kehta hai. Maine kaha, "Yaar, for God's sake, this is not khuda, it is khuda."

13:41Jawad MirHow do we… Okay, let me go back to the Co… Coke Studio for a second. What are some of the songs or that came out recently that you really admired and why? Just one or two.

13:52Shashi RanjanAt moment I can't really think, but there are so many, seriously. So many. I'm a great admirer of these, new guys who are coming on Coke, show, and, I think Atif Aslam also he has come from that route, if I'm not mistaken.

14:07Jawad MirBut I think so. I'm not sure myself, but I'm, I'm not sure 100%.

14:12Shashi RanjanBut there are many Pakistani and, Indian singers who have come through this route, and superb. So the… to me that is a perfect balance of, Western music and your traditional music. And that's why it is so fascinating that…

14:29Jawad MirYeah

14:29Shashi Ranjan... They're not just aping, they're creating something out of two cultures.

14:34Jawad MirThere are two songs in there, one I can't remember, but the one I do remember is called "Harkale," and it is, sung by a Pakistani, American Pakistani who sings in English, and the guy on the opposing side sings in Pashto, right? And it…

14:51Shashi RanjanAh.

14:51Jawad MirAnd it's, it's… I will send you that link. It's such… It's like, you don't even need to understand what they're saying, but you, I mean, that you can read the subtitles and obviously understand the English, but there is just so much synergy in there that you feel like they're speaking the same language.

15:08Shashi RanjanTrue.

15:10Jawad MirAnd it's, it's beautifully done, and there's another one that's in Urdu and Norwegian, which is interesting too.

15:16Shashi RanjanAh. Interesting.

15:17Jawad MirYeah. So you will apprec… especially the most recent season, they really w… I don't know if you've seen any one… There's this one called "2 A.M." It's these two guys in the, you know, in two… at 2 A.M. In the streets of Lahore. One of them is speaking about how love is all fake and love is all this and love is betrayal, love is this, and the other guy answers him back, "No, it's not. It's the most beautiful thing. It's the most this and that." And it's so beautifully shot, wr… sung, written, composed, everything.

15:52Shashi RanjanHow do you see, Jawad, the music playing… I mean, in old Hollywood movies, music did play a very big part, and whenever there was a good musical, it really created a, you know, a history. We see very few now, songs even in, Hollywood movies. What do you see… Do you see it as the same reason, or you think there is something else?

16:17Jawad MirI think so. I mean, there's movies like Sound of Music and, you know, there was a lot of movies from Disney that came out in the '60s and '70s. Even the animation movies has a lot of songs. I think the songs part for the audience, has kind of st… is, staying in animated films, only in Disney animated films. It's not really showing up in any other animated films. And in live action it's really rare. It's like once in a blue moon they will come in. And I think the reason for that is the audience does not have the appetite for it. They just don't. Like even me, for example, I can't watch a musical from beginning to end. It's just the way... Maybe I can, but I just, I j… at the moment I can't, right? But…

17:05Shashi RanjanNo, I feel, you know, J… Jawad, if the m… if the songs is not part of your narrative…

17:10Jawad MirYeah

17:11Shashi Ranjan... If your story…

17:11Jawad MirYeah

17:11Shashi Ranjan... Then they don't work. Like for example, my, one of my favorite film is Abba. This... I mean, they have songs back to back, but what a film. I mean, it moves you laugh, you cry, you jump with joy because so many songs, but the storyline is so beautiful.

17:31Jawad MirYeah. So I was gonna give you that example of the film Mary Poppins, which came out about 60 years ago. It… with Julie Andrews, Dick Van Dyke, and I don't know if you've seen it, but it's basically about this nanny, these two kids who c… are not,.. Every nanny that comes in, they kick her out, and there's this sort of magical nanny comes in, and she just changes their life. And it's beautifully... It has memorable songs. Like, I still know the songs. But I think the same thing is happening here that has been happening in India or vice… or it happened here and it's happening there, is that just to take animation, right? Like movies like Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, Aladdin Those songs, A Whole New World, Circle of Life, you know, Be Our Guest, all those songs are so memorable. But the most recent, when I say the recent, the last 20 years, the animation films that have been coming out with songs, it's not there.

18:29Shashi RanjanYeah.

18:29Jawad MirThe lyrics are not there, the music is not…

18:32Shashi RanjanYeah

18:32Jawad Mir... There's just... I don't know if it's the same thing here, that the element of lyrical poetry and music is dying out, what it is, but…

18:40Shashi RanjanAnd they're not part of the story. They're just standalone songs, so they don't really work.

18:45Jawad MirYeah.

18:45Shashi RanjanBut the moment a song comes a part of the story, it moves you, it has more, longevity in people's mind. Standalone songs, yes, if it is ex… exceptional, they linger in your memory, but they fade away if it's just a standalone song, however good it may be. So it needs the emotional support of narrative, to be memorable. That's what I would say.

19:13Jawad MirYeah. I wonder what can be done to revive all that, right? Are we going through this pendulum shift where things are going this way, and then automatically they will come back this way? You know, it's just that shift that takes place?

19:28Shashi RanjanI guess, I think that has been the history of in, cinema all over the world, that it goes into an extreme thing, and then it comes back and, you know. So, different generations keep exploring, genres. Like Spielberg started a different genre altogether, and so many films, the whole new cinema started making films like that. Unfortunately, nowhere in the world the love stories or musicals is a trend right now, whether you see... Whatever s… you know, cinema which is vibrant, whether it is Hollywood, whether it's India or Chinese or, any other which is really commercial, cinema, is not churning out, musicals or romantic movies, much romantic movies.

20:16Jawad MirSure.

20:16Shashi RanjanSo I guess this is it. People are experimenting, I think, because of these, Netflixes of the world, different kinds, kind of story, which never, ever have been told on screen. So it's a, it's, it's a new animal they're, they're excited about. And that's, I think, is what happening. That's what I personally feel.

20:39Jawad MirI'm glad you said Netflix and them, and I don't mean Netflix per se in general, but it's like streaming platforms, all of them. I think what's happened is that... And I, you know, we pitch projects to different streaming platforms from time to time, and most of them, the answer is like, "No," but then you ask them, "Okay, why?" Well, that doesn't... Not for all of them, but some of them, it doesn't really fit the algorithm, right?

21:03Shashi RanjanIt doesn't?

21:03Jawad MirAnd it's like, 'cause... Fit the algorithm. Like, the

21:07Shashi RanjanExactly.

21:07Jawad MirBecause they have this thing that, from what I have been told, and I don't... There's no way to authenticate it, this is just somebody told me this, is that they have a system where they feed in this information, whatever the idea is, and they let that figure out. Now, with the advent of AI, it's like, is this gonna work or is it gonna generate us money? Is it gonna get us subscribers? I think where... It's the same system as, like, let's say that came out in the s… '90s or the '80s or '70s, where the bigger the budget is, the more, you know, the bigger the stars are, the more people are gonna watch it. I get that. But I think in doing so, you're losing those original stories which are character-driven, which are story-driven, and you're putting every… that aside, and you're going with the numbers. Which I understand, bus… it's a business, right? But sometimes you have to take... Like '90s, for example, in Hollywood was one of the most incredible eras because companies like Miramax, which was started by Har… the Weinstein brothers, DreamWorks, they ruled mid… early to late '90s in terms of Oscar nominations because they made bold films.

22:14Jawad MirThey made films that nobody was making before, independent films, bold films. And then they both collapsed, and now it's over. Now it's a superhero world. So I think that somebody needs to take an initiative of giving voices to important stories, and I think it will come back. People are hungry for this stuff. I truly feel it.

22:35Shashi RanjanBut I always have this discussion with platforms and, channel heads, so they all have this, that, you know, our survey says this works. Our, you know, s… science says this works. But art and science don't go together. And, another thing which is, that, creativity cannot be democratic.

22:58Jawad MirYeah, it can't be. Yeah.

23:00Shashi RanjanSo if, you know, W… Wordsworth would have asked his neighbors, "Do you think if this poem is going to work?" He would have never been able, or Keats or Byron, they would have never written those poems because it's, it's not about people's opinion. It's about a man's conviction about creating something. It can go wrong, sure. It can go wrong, but you cannot say that this is a sample, so this is the sampling, this will work. If that is true, then all the channels should be successful all the time.

23:34Jawad MirYeah.

23:34Shashi RanjanWhy aren't they? Only, even in spite of their surveys and all those things, only f… 2 to 4% is a success rate. Why? You put all your fucking science into this, but still films don't do well.

23:49Jawad MirYep.

23:50Shashi RanjanSo…

23:50Jawad MirI mean... Yeah, go on

23:51Shashi Ranjan... It's a very, it's a very strange business which only works from here.

23:58Jawad MirNo doubt about that.

23:59Shashi RanjanIf it moves…

24:00Jawad MirNo doubt

24:00Shashi Ranjan... Tears, then y… you've done it. No amount of surveys can stop that. There's no logic…

24:09Jawad MirAnd the... Sorry, go on.

24:11Shashi RanjanYeah. So there's no logic to this, and I don't think,.. I know I always have this argument all the time with these platforms. I said, "Come on. If you really knew all this…" And it was so easy. Then everybody would be a Raj Kapoor or a filmmaker.

24:25Jawad MirYeah. I feel like if you take names like William Shak… Shakespeare, right? And then you take names like John Keats, William Wordsworth, like all these poets, I'm willing to bet that when these plays came out, the Shakespeare stuff came out, at the time it came out, all these poetry, English poetry that came out when it came out, most of the great paintings, poets, writers, all these people, when their stuff comes out nobody understands it and nobody appreciates it because they're way ahead…

25:09Shashi RanjanAnd they're ahead

25:10Jawad Mir... And they're way ahead of their time.

25:12Shashi RanjanYes.

25:13Jawad MirRight? And then later in time, and you look at Stanley Kubrick, like everybody thought that he was nuts.

25:18Shashi RanjanYes. Very big example. I said you, since you're, you are from Pakistan you will understand Saadat Hasan Manto.

25:26Jawad MirYes. The…

25:26Shashi RanjanOne of the biggest…

25:27Jawad MirYes. Yes

25:28Shashi Ranjan... So when Manto came people wanted to kill him because he was far ahead progressive, and the kind of naked stories he, and the characters he created, people said that he's gone, he's a mad man. He writes such, you know, vulgar stuff. But he is one of the finest writers, this area has ever produced. So, and he didn't bother what A or B or C would say about his stories. It was his expression. And for that matter, many writers for, Ismat Chughtai, I don't know whether you heard of. She was a female writer, Urdu writer.

26:13Shashi RanjanAnd, much ahead of her time. She talked about lesbianism. She talked about women right way back in '60s, and everybody said that this, you know, this woman is a loose woman. What kind of writing is this? But she is now, in the history. So I think this is, you cannot make anything until unless you believe in that. It's your belief.

26:39Jawad MirYeah.

26:39Shashi RanjanAnd of course you have to be sensible about your belief. You can't just go berserk. But you... It may work, it may not work, but you have to do it. There's no other way. There's no other way.

26:55Jawad MirI couldn't agree with you more. And I think another aspect nowadays is we are so polarized that there's always this fear of, "If I make this, will I…"

27:05Shashi RanjanYeah

27:05Jawad Mir... "offend somebody?" and that.

27:06Shashi RanjanYeah, that's, that's a terrible thing.

27:08Jawad MirWhich film of mine are you watching right now? I'll give you an example if that's the one. Are you watching In Search of My Sister or Citizen Amaria?

27:16Shashi RanjanYes. Sisters.

27:17Jawad MirOkay. So, I won't talk about it, but basically for me it was so important that you to not... To highlight an issue through characters, through protagonist is fantastic, right? But you also have to understand to make it more legitimate, to give it a little bit more voice, to give it that arm that it's not a propaganda piece, you have to get in a, in a f… in a narrative or in a documentary you have to have the other side come in and present…

27:52Shashi RanjanAbsolutely. Absolutely

27:52Jawad Mir... Their v… views, right? And what that does is it gives your protagonist more validation in the long run by the film ends.

28:02Shashi RanjanTrue.

28:02Jawad MirI can't te… I can't tell you how many times, you know, when you... I've been told by people that it's, it's a great film, but then they'll be like, "When I was watching I'm like, what am I watching?" And by the time it ended I was like, "Oh, okay." So I think that's very important that if you're looking for box office hits, then you need to make films like, you know, I don't know, Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge or E.T., Jurassic Park…

28:28Shashi RanjanYeah

28:28Jawad Mir... All that stuff. But art itself, like it's just you need to have that expression. Like you said, it's so important, like, to say what you wanna say regardless of what anybody else thinks.

28:40Shashi RanjanYeah. If you are fearful in that, then you're neither here nor there. It doesn't work.

28:45Jawad MirYeah.

28:45Shashi RanjanYou know?

28:45Jawad Mir100%. 100%. Do you think there's a lot of political pressure on movies in India? Not intentionally.

28:54Shashi RanjanSee…

28:54Jawad MirIntentionally or unintentionally.

28:56Shashi RanjanThere is always pressure. The government's, the job of the government is to put pressure. So, yeah. But, still, you know, we, our country, being, judiciary being very strong here, there are way outs. It's not that if the government says something, you know, it's, it's done and dusted. So you have a, you have a system that you can go up to the highest court and there have been many instances where, films got stuck and then they were released later by the courts and things like that. So that's, that's one thing, which is good for people who want to say different things. But yeah, but this is happening worldwide. Those voices are throttled, voices are, intimidated. So that's all is a reality. It's not, fiction. Unfortunately, but yes.

29:55Jawad MirArt changes the world, right? I mean, I... You believe that I'm sure. I believe that, not because we are in this field, but…

30:02Shashi RanjanYeah

30:02Jawad Mir... Whether you read books or poet, it does change the world. I mean, if you look at like we're talking about Shakespeare, John Keats, we're talking about all these great poets like, you know, Rilke and everybody else, they had an impact and that's why we're still, we still know about them, right?

30:17Shashi RanjanTrue.

30:17Jawad MirOtherwise w… why would we? And it's one of the things that I really…... Appreciate about the films that have been coming out from the, your part of the world, in the Indian cinema, is that Netflix, yes, and streaming platforms have their alga… algorithms and everything, but one of the things that it's done is, like, all these small town films that are coming out and series that are coming out…

30:42Shashi RanjanYes

30:42Jawad Mir... I mean, that's, that's real stuff, right? You can't beat that.

30:45Shashi RanjanTrue.

30:45Jawad MirAnd I appreciate that a lot.

30:46Shashi RanjanTrue.

30:46Jawad MirBecause the mainstream cinema, I mean, how many people remem… I don't even remember any mainstream film in the last 15, 20 years.

30:52Shashi RanjanNo, you don't because it is all floss. There's nothing to... No re… no, honesty in it. It is just, you just watch it and forget about it 'cause you don't take home nothing. So you see, the earlier cinema was that it will had commercial ingredients, but at the same time, there used to be some kind of a message, there used to be some kind of a, you know, layering into, to the story. Now there are no layers. It's song, dance, fight, this, that, and then you finish, come home. So you don't take anything home back. That's the unfortunate part. I'm very... I must mention that I'm extremely impressed by Iranian cinema.

31:34Jawad MirYes.

31:34Shashi RanjanThe kind of, films Iranians are making, I said hats off to them. With their kind of society, with their kind of problems, there are still people who are telling very bold stories.

31:48Jawad MirYep. Yep. I…

31:50Shashi RanjanOne of my favorite, my favorite film is Osama. I was blown when I saw Osama. Have you seen Osama?

31:57Jawad MirNo, I have not. I've heard about it. I've not actually seen it.

31:59Shashi RanjanOh, yes. You have to see it. It's... I mean, it just shakes you up. And some of the female writer, the directors doing, making extremely good and bold films…

32:11Jawad MirYeah

32:11Shashi Ranjan... Living in a society like that. Very progressive. I all the time tell the youngsters in India, I said, "Look at... So it's, it is not your geography or your political influence which can always throttle you. If you really want to say something, you find a way to do that."

32:31Jawad MirThere's a, there's really two good movies that from Iran that I've seen. One I saw at TIFF about 20 years ago called Exam, and another one is from the '90s called P… Color of Paradise. Exam, the basic premise is it's, there's an exam at college or university and there's women, waiting outside to write the exam, and they're talking about their problems. That's the whole film, and it's brilliantly done.

32:57Shashi RanjanOh.

32:57Jawad MirAnd Color of Paradise, oh, God, that movie's gonna, like, gut wrench you. It's about this blind kid at, I think, the age of 8 or 9 or 10 who's trying to win the affection of his father.

33:09Shashi RanjanYeah.

33:09Jawad MirIt's... I would highly recommend you watch those two f… I think Color of Paradise was done by Majid Majidi, I think his name is.

33:17Shashi RanjanMa… Majid Ma… Majid Majidi, right.

33:19Jawad MirYeah. He also did a film in India.

33:22Shashi RanjanYeah, that was a poor film. I didn't like that film, but…

33:24Jawad MirYeah. But I don't know why…

33:25Shashi RanjanBut his cinema, he…

33:27Jawad MirYeah.

33:28Shashi RanjanI think he got fascinated by the Holly… Bollywood cinema and, made that film. But anyway, so, but when I can't think of any…

33:37Jawad MirBeyond the Clouds

33:37Shashi Ranjan... He made some good cinema. He's created some good films.

33:41Jawad MirYeah, for sure. Have you seen, there's a director in Pakistan, the only director I l… watch if his movies come out. You know about Shoaib Mansoor?

33:51Shashi RanjanYes.

33:52Jawad MirHave you seen Bol?

33:55Shashi RanjanI haven't s… which one?

33:57Jawad MirBol. Like…

33:59Shashi RanjanBol? No, I haven't seen it.

34:04Jawad MirKhuda Ke Liye, In the Name of God?

34:05Shashi RanjanKhuda Ke liye, I've seen.

34:06Jawad MirOkay.

34:06Shashi RanjanYeah, it released here in theaters.

34:09Jawad MirI would highly recommend…

34:10Shashi RanjanBeautiful

34:10Jawad Mir... Watch Bol. It's one of those…

34:12Shashi RanjanYeah

34:12Jawad Mir... Movies that you cannot imagine it was made in that part of the world 10 years ago…

34:16Shashi RanjanYeah

34:16Jawad Mir... Or 15 years ago.

34:17Shashi RanjanYes. I agree with you. Even Khuda Ke liye was a terrific film.

34:21Jawad MirYeah. But yeah, highly recommend.

34:24Shashi RanjanBut yeah, it's the same Pakis… it's the same Pakistan which churns out C-grade Punjabi films and, you know, all those, melodramatic, stuff all the time, and at the same time, you have s… certain makers who make sensitive films like this. And again, the governments are not very, happy about certain, you know, ideas and thinking, but yeah. So I think they're brave people.

34:53Jawad MirWell, I think that's where it goes to, right? It's like, okay, I think what has happened is art was initially made, I mean, whenever art started, it's to, it's a form of expression. That's all it always been.

35:05Shashi RanjanTrue.

35:05Jawad MirThat's why it's been made. Like, that's what it is. It's like just expressing yourself. Now it's like, okay, if I'm gonna express myself, who am I gonna tick off? Who am I not gonna tick off? What's the checkbox? And in doing so, you just lose the idea and never go… goes forward.

35:19Shashi RanjanTrue.

35:19Jawad MirRight? So I think at... And that's what's happening, I think, everywhere. Even here, it's like you can't make a movie, like, now... Yeah, you can't make a movie if certain checkbox are checked, and that's not art.

35:32Shashi RanjanYeah. How's the Canadian cinema? If... Are they making movies there or

35:38Jawad MirYeah, the thing with Canadians… The Canadian pro… cinema problem is that it's, the, we do make stuff, but what happens with us is because majority of the time the films, I would say more than majority of the time, the films that are made are the big films are funded by grants and stuff, right? So when the crew gets their grants, I'm not speaking for everybody, I'm speaking in most cases, grants, they make the film, they will get it on a, TV station here or a platform, go through festivals, and then that's where it ends. There's, because you've already been paid. This is my theory. Now, if you make an indep… you don't go, you don't take that film to Hollywood. The only, ever film that was nominated for an Oscar that was Canadian, through my knowledge, is Suite Hereafter by Atom Egoyan. That was in '90s. But you don't take it to the Hollywood level. Now it's not… Hollywood level is not like, you know, some sort of top of the world, but it's where the audience is. That's just the way it is, the majority…

36:41Shashi RanjanNo, true

36:43Jawad Mir... Of the audience. And we don't take it there.

36:44Shashi RanjanIt's a box office.

36:44Jawad MirYeah, and we don't take it there. It doesn't go beyond the Canadian borders because it's been accepted here, let's move on to the next project. And that to me is my biggest pet peeve with the Canadian cinema is that it's just made for the Canadians. Maybe some exceptions, it will go into Europe markets and everything, but that's about it. Like I… I… I... The films that, In Search of My Sister and Citizen Emoria. Citizen Emoria is about a Persian Afghan, filmmaker. If I was to... The way I… the way we made the films were we were privately funded and everything, but I could have been okay with getting privately funded money and just putting it out there for festivals and just move on. But to this day, it's been three years, we're still pushing the film even though they're on platforms e… just constantly marketing it. Because you just want to have a wider audience, you want to tell the story to the world.

37:43Shashi RanjanYeah. Somebody told me a very interesting thing. He says, "Wherever in the world, if cinema has survived, it is because of the star system."

37:51Jawad MirBecause of the what system?

37:51Shashi RanjanIf there is no star system, cinema does not survive.

37:55Jawad MirStar system?

37:57Shashi RanjanYes. He says…

38:00Jawad MirAh

38:00Shashi Ranjan... Hollywood has stars, it has survived. China has stars, it survives. India has stars, it survives. Look at,.. And he is quite right because…

38:09Jawad MirI think so too

38:10Shashi Ranjan... See, European cinema, or Russian cinema for that matter, they were the leaders at one time of good cinema. Non-existent is, you know, cinema at the moment, French cinema or British, because there are no stars. So he says stars are very important for any industry to flourish. Wherever there are no stars, industry doesn't flourish.

38:41Jawad MirThat's a, that's a very interesting observation, and I agree with it, and I wonder how that's gonna be in the next 20 years because stars are fading away from Hollywood.

38:49Shashi RanjanYes. Yes.

38:50Jawad MirAnd stars are fading away from Indian cinema as well.

38:52Shashi RanjanEverywhere. Everywhere. There are no s… there are not real star stars.

38:55Jawad MirRight.

38:55Shashi RanjanI mean, if you say that you have to go back to '80s, '90s or, you know, the real stars if you talk about in India also. If you go, then you have to go back to Amitabh Bachchans and Shah Rukh Khans, and then the younger one, they are there, they are popular, they're stars but, you know what I mean? That…

39:13Jawad MirYeah. No, I agree

39:13Shashi Ranjan... Longevity and that, lifespan, I wonder if they can have that kind of a longevity.

39:22Jawad MirYeah. No, I agree. I totally agree. I think the star part... Like look at Tom Cruise, he's in his six… early 60s, right?

39:28Shashi RanjanYeah.

39:29Jawad MirAnd…

39:30Shashi RanjanTrue. Yeah

39:31Jawad Mir... He still attracts millions of people.

39:33Shashi RanjanYes.

39:34Jawad MirBut yeah, no, this has been a great... I mean, we can keep talking about this with no…

39:40Shashi RanjanYeah

39:41Jawad Mir... Solution in sight, but let's just wrap it up on one little note. How do you think we revive poetry and music and storytelling in any kind of cinema? What's the solution? What's the, what's the first attempt that we can make to take, go to that direction?

40:00Shashi RanjanI personally feel that we have to read our literature and our poetry, so that there's sensibility, this, the feeling, in your persona. Like the Zubaan comes so natural to me. It's, because it's ingrained because I've read it. I have read, literature, I have read poetry, I listen to poetry all the time. So anything when there is a romantic situation or there is something, the thoughts come in my mind, the music comes into my head, that can I say it like this in an shape of a ghazal or in a shape of a song? Or maybe I can, you know, just recite something. So that sensibility has to come when s… people start reading more their own literature and their own, poetry, which is non-existent at the moment. People don't read.

41:01Jawad MirWhat can be done to publish books like that? Like is there…

41:08Shashi RanjanThere are plenty actually

41:09Jawad Mir... Should be s… Are there?

41:10Shashi RanjanThere are plenty. The problem is that reading habits are dying.

41:13Jawad MirNo, but is there a way to sort of rebrand and remarket them to like, you know, to like…

41:17Shashi RanjanSee, the Amazon's of the world have all these books, but thing is it's, it's not in fashion to read. You understand? My... You know, I'm a old f… fashion guy, I read three newspapers every day in the morning.

41:30Shashi RanjanWhen my daughter was 16, I said, "Start reading newspaper." So she just looked at me. So after four or five days I said, "Okay, just read the film section, that at least that will attract you." So she again kept quiet, so I was quite irritated. I said, "Why would you listen, no?" She said, "Papa, please, everything is on my mobile, you know. You, I don't have to open this and... I get information much before than you get." So this is the new culture. Everything is here, so it's a quick, all you have to read it, read a headline and you're done.

42:05Jawad MirYeah. That's a problem not just with the kids, it's a problem with adults.

42:08Shashi RanjanYeah.

42:09Jawad MirMore so adults.

42:10Shashi RanjanAnd the span of attention is so short that if it doesn't, you know, hold you for that fraction of second, they move on somewhere else.

42:21Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, it's true. And I, one of the things that I think that might happen before we get back to the way that is, because, you know, first the, cinema came, then TV came, then the internet came, then the social media came, you know, phone, that VCR, DVD players. Now everything is like on a chip, right? I wonder, I wonder, I mean, the next set of technology could be, which they're already talking about, like, you know, like the, VR headset or AR headset.

42:55Shashi RanjanYeah.

42:55Jawad MirAnd then after that, what is it? Is it like something implanted in your…

42:58Shashi RanjanGoing to the brain space

42:59Jawad Mir... Brain? Brain. And then…

43:01Shashi RanjanNo brain

43:01Jawad Mir... And you're just…

43:02Shashi RanjanNo

43:02Jawad Mir... You're just being…

43:03Shashi RanjanNothing in brain. Straight to, straight away in your brain, so you're…

43:05Jawad MirRight

43:05Shashi Ranjan... Watching everything inside.

43:07Jawad MirYeah. So I…

43:07Shashi RanjanWho knows? It might be the reality one of these days.

43:11Jawad MirI think so. I think that's where we're heading. I really think, I mean, if you look at the movies…

43:14Shashi RanjanYeah

43:15Jawad Mir... So there've been so many movies that have been made about it, right? Like

43:17Shashi RanjanTrue. Yeah

43:18Jawad Mir... Right? So it's…

43:19Shashi RanjanAnd all the movies in '60s and '70s were made, we used to think, oh, it's all fictional. That has all become reality.

43:26Jawad MirYep. Yeah. 100%. So it'd be interesting…

43:28Shashi RanjanSome… somewhere the human imagination is based on something.

43:33Jawad MirYeah.

43:33Shashi RanjanIt's not all in the air.

43:35Jawad MirYeah. 100%. And again, go backs, goes back to how arts change the world, right? So…

43:40Shashi RanjanYes. Yes

43:40Jawad Mir... On that note, I think, we've covered this topic quite interestingly, but thank you so much, Sashi, for joining me. I appreciate it.

43:46Shashi RanjanThank you, Johan. Always nice talking to you and

43:49Jawad MirPleasure

43:50Shashi Ranjan... Yeah.