'Surviving Black Hawk Down', Director, Jack Macinnes

0:15Jawad MirWelcome back everyone to another episode of the Kingdom of Dreams podcast, the making of stories. I'm your host Jawad Mir. Today my guest is director Jack McInnes. He was one of the two directors responsible for the Netflix documentary series Surviving Black Hawk Down, which was also produced by Ridley Scott Productions along with the f… film that was originally directed by Ridley Scott that came out almost 20, 24 years ago. And there were some really cool moments that Jack talked about during the production, that were not expected. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Jack McInnes for Surviving Black Hawk Down that you can see on Netflix. I remember watching it on TV, like the footage. I specifically remember watching all that, and then when the, Ridley Scott made the film…

0:59Jawad Mir... I remember watching in theater with one of my friends and absolutely was blown away by, like after Saving Private Ryan, I think it's one of the rare movies that depicts…

1:08Jack MacinnesYeah

1:08Jawad Mir... War in such a brutal way.

1:10Jack MacinnesYeah.

1:10Jawad MirAnd then when I saw Surviving Black Hawk Down, I'm like, "Oh, this is interesting." And I was really taken by the trailer first of all, because I'm a big fan of trying to figure out how a problem happens from all angles.

1:27Jack MacinnesYeah.

1:27Jawad MirYou know, as crazy as those angles are. That's like, that's how I like to produce my work, but tell me about your in… And I saw the series and I loved it, and tell me about your involvement and how this kind of took the shape as it did from the beginning, the genesis of the project.

1:45Jack MacinnesYeah. So when I, when I first heard about it had been in development for a while, and I think, you know, it excited me for a couple of reasons. I was excited that Netflix wanted to get into this space of make… making war stories, and that felt like a new frontier and like a new, a new challenge for me. And obviously the thing that also really excited me about it was that they were committed to telling this story from both sides, and there was a, we had a great, Somali producer and journalist on board, a guy called Jamal Osman, who h… you know, this had, I think in a way this had really sort of begun as his baby. You know? That he had, as a, you know, he's really quite a big name in Africa. He's, he reports for Channel 4 News in, and he's, he's obviously grown up around this story and everyone in Somalia has grown up around this story.

2:49Jawad MirYeah.

2:49Jack MacinnesI've got, I feel like October 3rd, 1993 in Somalia is like, "Where were you when JFK was shot? When were you on 9/11?" It's that day that everyone in that community knows and understands, and everyone has a story. And as a s… journalist working in that field, he had obviously been picking up these stories over the years and thought no one's ever told it from both sides. And I think it was, that's what really clicked in me and excited me about this project from the start, was the potential to have something we've possibly seen in a different context, the, you know, the desire to tell a fully rounded story from both sides, giving you the full context, making you understand an event like Black Hawk Down. But I don't think the challenge of combining that with the cinematic sensibility that is suggested by Ridley Scott Associates make Black Hawk Down for Netflix, that really excited me.

3:57Jack Macinnes'Cause I've never seen that combination before. I've never seen something which had those kind of really classic documentary values at its core, the values of trying to put your, the viewer in someone else's shoes, trying to see something from all sides. But decided to do that in a way that was gonna appeal to a mass audience, that was gonna be cinematic, that was gonna have the same effect on you that the Black Hawk Down movie has. You know, it felt, it felt like that movie was just a sort of great big challenge sitting out in front of us, that this had to stand up alongside that as a companion piece somehow. You know, that this, it couldn't sort of shirk that challenge and I sort of, when I started to look into it, obviously like what I, you know, the team had done some great research into talking, they talked to, you know, at least 100 people on the American side and many people on the Somali side. So all that research was there, and obviously I began by reading Mark Bowden's book on Black Hawk Down, which is very comprehensive. And then listening to some of the Rangers, some of the Delta Force guys, the way they talked about it, and the way the Somalis were talking about it.

5:04Jack MacinnesAnd it was interesting 'cause I felt, okay, it's interesting, there is a, there's, there's some different war room movie inspirations that are coming to me here. You know, this kind of, with 30 years hindsight on this now, first thing that hits you is that every single person who was there on that day is dealing with some kind of trauma today. You know? This is, this is an event which there are people in Kansas, there are people in, there are people in North Carolina, there are people in Kenya, there are people in London, you know, who are all kind of living with what hap… what this day did to them. And it was a, it was a day where almost nobody won. And it sort of felt to me like, you know, this was, you know, this was a story which called to mind for me all those kind, the great kind of Vietnam movies, you know, The Deer Hunter, you know, it's a story about a… and it hit me that this is, you know, from the American's perspective, this is a story about a bunch of guys who were kids in the early '90s, a super confident time for America, who joined the Army at a time when, you know, joining the Army didn't necessarily mean going to war, you know?

6:17Jack MacinnesAnd these guys wanted to go to war, but it wasn't like it would be 20 years later when Iraq and Afghanistan were ongoing. And they get sent out to this place that they didn't, you know, they didn't know a thing about. I mean, who grows up learning a lot about Somalia? Nobody, you know? And they got sent out to this place, you know, in the full confidence that they were the greatest fighting force in the world, and they end up with 18 of their buddies dying, and most of them, certainly the ones we talked to, going through near-death experiences themselves. And that, I suppose, instantly I felt in that there is, you know, an, a possibility in a documentary style to do, to sort of ape those kind of classic war movies that have, that show you a human being's trajectory through all of that. And that was, that was kind of what, that's what really excited me about it. And I felt, and I s… and so I felt that at every point then we had to, we kind of had to deliver that kind of cinematic promise, both in the storytelling and how we shot it.

7:29Jawad MirYeah. And I, like I said earlier, I mean, in the times that we live right now, no matter which part… ... Of the world it is, we live in very polarized times. And to be able to... Like, I'm working on a project that's trying.

7:42Jack MacinnesOh.

7:42Jawad MirIt's, it's, it's a narrative from two sides. To be able to tell that is very challenging, because people have these preconceived… ... Notions that I…

7:52Jack MacinnesYeah

7:52Jawad Mir... You know, even if they see the trailer, "Okay, I don't wanna see this because this is, talks about the other side." So that's a very brave thing for you to do, and, you know, obviously, yeah, Netflix is backing it and everything, all that.

8:01Jack MacinnesYeah.

8:01Jawad MirYou can... But still, to be able to put that in perspective and humanize every side, which the original Black Hawk Down, Black Hawk Down film did very well for its time.

8:12Jack MacinnesYeah.

8:13Jawad MirIt was way ahead of its time in trying to tell both sides. It probably was not a 50/50 balance… ... But in that time, it was a big deal…

8:20Jack MacinnesYeah

8:20Jawad Mir... To even show the other side.

8:22Jack MacinnesYeah.

8:22Jawad MirSo, you know, awesome on that, man. I, like I said, I love the series. And, for me, what I would love to know is that, what was the one thing that you learned that you did not know before? N… not necessarily, maybe historically, but also…

8:38Jawad Mir... From a human, humanizing element. Like, what sort of snapped, "Oh, shoot, I, you know, this is, this is interesting"?

8:49Jack MacinnesThat's a, that's a good question. I mean, the truth is, there was so much I didn't know. I was, as soon as I started looking into this, the extent to which I realized I had the sketchiest, most sketchy understanding of the circumstances around this, hit me. I think, the, you know, really keying into the Somali perspective was fascinating. I think it was a really great way to understand the other side of the coin of what it's like to be on the receiving end of Western intervention, you know? That, and I was r… one thing that I was really struck by was the, was the generosity of spirit towards the Americans, certainly when it came to the beginning of the story. You know, every s… every single Somali we spoke to said when the Americans first arrived, they all talked about how they were giving out sweets to the kids, how everyone was waving flags.

9:50Jack MacinnesEveryone loved them. Everyone saw it as a hopeful thing. So many of the guys we talked to, these guys, like, it was so great to spend time with, you know, hardened fighters who, you know, some people would term, would call terrorists, and, you know, who were the kind of people who would be the bad guy, who would be the bad guy, who would, who would, you know, be a threat or would proba… probably just, you know, fall down in the back of a shot. And actually spend time with those guys like Yasin Dare and Nur Hasan, they all talked about how they loved American movies, you know, how they grew up watching those things and how they had this kind of, story-eyed view of America, and how... And the sort of, I think there's almost like a sense of disappointment as time went on, as they, came face to face with the reality of what it's like being a developing world country with a, you know, the world's foremost military power, you know, intervening. And I think it was, it was felt, it felt, it felt like I could suddenly see this as the pivot point it was.

10:57Jack MacinnesThat I sort of, I wonder whether kids growing up in Somalia today, kids growing up in Iraq today, kids growing in the Middle East and Africa today are, you know, would have that story-eyed view of America to begin with, you know? And it felt like in 1993 was maybe the sign of something changing. You know, the, there was the, it felt thr… having gone through everything that we've gone through in the last 25 years, going back to that point in '93 where the Cold War was over, and remembering that at that point, America was the world's hope, and everyone loved, you know, and that it took an incident like this to change that in Somalia, and possibly, you know, that's what we've seen going on around the rest of the world. And that was, that was also mirrored in, I think, the experience of the Americans who were there, you know? That they, the, it was, it, "We're Americans, we're the good guys."

11:58Jack MacinnesYou know, all of them said that. You know, that's, that goes without saying. And to find themselves questioning that later on… was very powerful. And so I think that's what felt like a real privilege diving into this incident was, you know, to be, to kind of, to almost see how that unfolded over a short period of time, and how that sort of in a way mirrors what's happened on a global scale over many more years.

12:29Jawad MirYeah. And it's, it's interesting because, so, you know, as you grow older, you know… ... From teen years to 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, whatever, you know, everybody's perception changes because you're, the world around you is different and you become mature.

12:45Jawad MirSo I remember, I think, because of after the Iraq War, so th… this is just something personal I'm sharing. And so…

12:53Jack MacinnesYeah

12:53Jawad Mir... When the Gulf War happened, I come from a military family back home… ... And I was just fascinated with planes and army and all that. So I built this thick of a binder with newspaper clippings of the first day for the war until, like, the last day. Mass…

13:10Jack MacinnesYeah

13:10Jawad Mir... And I was, like, rooting for United States. Wh… whatever the, I didn't know anything about anything, but I was just rooting for United States. And then after that when I saw what happened in Somalia, I was not in that same place.

13:26Jack MacinnesYeah.

13:26Jawad MirI was in a different place. Then I saw the film… ... And then I understood this and this.

13:32Jack MacinnesYeah.

13:32Jawad MirLike, okay, there's that. So, you know, one of the key things with storytelling is, which you have done fabulously, is humanizing anyone is so important because we don't know anybody until we sit down and talk with them.

13:47Jack MacinnesYeah.

13:47Jawad MirAnd that, and as a director of this series, you certainly did that. I mean, it's, it's clearly shown in the film. To be able to, you know, go in there and I know you didn't know much, we, neither do I.

14:00Jawad MirNone of us know everything about any issue. But was there a perception that you had… ... Which was refuted by an experience that you had with somebody, whether it was like, okay, Americans are this, or Somalians are this, or they're both this, and that just completely turned your world upside down?

14:18Jack MacinnesYeah, there was a moment like that, actually. I mean, just before I get to it, I mean, I completely empathize with what you were just saying. You know, I, from what you're saying, I reckon maybe I'm about five years younger than you or something, 'cause I was probably about, I was about 10 when the, when the Gulf War happened.

14:34Jawad MirYeah, I was 16.

14:35Jack MacinnesYeah?

14:35Jawad MirYeah, I was, I was 14. I was 14.

14:37Jack MacinnesOkay.

14:37Jawad MirYeah.

14:38Jack MacinnesWell, I remember exactly that, exactly that. I remember cutting out the maps, you know, charting where the, you know, completely the same experience. And then, you know, when I was a, when I was a kid, you know, I brought up in London, you know, I used to, I used to go down to Buckingham Palace and, you know, I had my own little, my own little red tunic and my own little, you know, bearskin hat, and I s… loved the army. So I had that as a kid. And then obviously I was at college, you know, when 9/11 happened, and in the beginning of the war on terror, and then we all went through that experience, which obviously marked me a lot and made me see, like, the other side. And, yeah, I, so I think, I think what was, the moment that you're, you're referring to, I think we were interviewing, David Dima, who's the guy who opens the s… the series.

15:29Jawad MirYeah

15:29Jack Macinnes... And I hope Dave wouldn't mind me saying this, but he's, you know, he's a tough guy, you know? He's, he runs a security company. He's a, he's a New Yorker, you know, he's, you know, he's the kind of guy who you would meet and you wouldn't expect even any vulnerability and weakness from him, really, and he do… and he was quite open with us of saying, like, "Other people talk about their trauma. That's not how it is for me," you know? I, and he was, he was quite clear with us that he thrived in battle, you know? He was, you know, he said some people kind of shrink in that experience, but he suddenly felt at home. And he said, he said one of the, one of the guys who was with him commented, "Oh, you just look like you're having a nice day out in the park, Dave," you know? And in gaps between filming, yeah, he was telling us, you know, "I don't really just identify with this trauma thing at all." And towards the end of that interview, I asked him about the moment he heard the decision from his superiors that Clinton had pulled the troops out, and that they weren't gonna get to finish the job, and it was one of those moments where I was, you know, Stefano, our brilliant DOP, and I, like, was just exchanged a look, 'cause something's just started happening in his body, you know?

16:45Jack MacinnesI could just see him, you know, he was wringing his hands. They were starting to shake, and I think something was starting to take him over that he wasn't prepared for. I don't think, I don't think anyone had really asked him that question before, and the tears came out, and I don't think Dave knew he was living with that trauma, you know? And I don't think that, and y… you know, those are the moments you sort of live for as a documentary maker, where it doesn't always happen that in the room, in the moment, with the cameras rolling, a sort of truth emerges that no one really knew was there, and which shows that even the toughest character of all of those guys, the guys who had the f… who'd had, who'd had the least problems since that event, underneath it all was in turmoil and was really struggling. And I think that's really important because while we're all used to the idea that, you know, people of color, people from the, people from countries like Somalia can be dehumanized in the media, so equally people, you know, you know, sh… you know, tough, shaven-headed guys who are in the US Army, you know, there's a certain view of people like that people have, and that, you know… And he's a, he's a human being with emotions and suffering just like anyone else, and he had an experience that day.

18:17Jack MacinnesAnd I think it was, it was such a pleasure to work on this, 'cause I think, this is, this is kind of what documentary making is all about really, is walking into a room with someone and trying to shed any preconceptions you might have about them and really getting to the bottom of what their experience was.

18:35Jack MacinnesAnd that felt like a real privilege to me that day, 'cause I wasn't expecting it.

18:39Jawad MirThat's a wonderful story, man. I mean, yeah, that too... I mean, I always tweet, I always say that directors who make documentaries are almost like psychiatrists, you know, because we're always trying to find that spot.

18:54Jack MacinnesYeah.

18:54Jawad MirAnd sometimes when we're looking for it, we don't get it, and then when…

18:57Jack MacinnesYeah

18:57Jawad Mir... Unexpectedly it happens the way…

18:59Jack MacinnesYeah

18:59Jawad Mir... It happened with you is amazing. And I, and, you know, I al… I truly believe, like, military people, whether it's from America, UK, Asia, wherever…

19:09Jack MacinnesYeah

19:09Jawad Mir... You know, they're just following orders.

19:12Jack MacinnesYeah.

19:13Jawad MirEven if they're doing the craziest things, I get it, like, it's bad. It's bad, like, you know, what happened to Abu…

19:17Jack MacinnesYeah

19:18Jawad Mir... Was it Abu Ghraib in Iraq?

19:19Jack MacinnesYeah.

19:20Jawad MirLike, those are terrible things. But at the same time, war messes up with your head. I'm not justifying any actions, but it just does, mess… messes with your head to a point where you don't even know what the hell you've become.

19:33Jack MacinnesYeah.

19:33Jawad MirAnd, I, and I love that story that you just told me, man, because I truly believe, like, American Sniper, which I'm sure you've seen with, Bradley…

19:41Jack MacinnesYeah

19:41Jawad Mir... I mean, it's like how he deals with those emotions, he doesn't. Right? And to be able to see that in a doc…

19:49Jack MacinnesYeah

19:49Jawad Mir... It's just powerful, man, and thank you for sharing that. I completely connect with you on that, like, how it is now we live in a world where, you know, the Western countries, and I understand the point of view.

20:01Jawad MirThey're portrayed as, you know, co… colonials and all that.

20:04Jack MacinnesYeah.

20:04Jawad MirI get it. Like, it's been there for a long, but we gotta move on past that. Not every individual is, like, a…

20:10Jack MacinnesYeah

20:10Jawad Mir... Giant power, right? So thank you so much for that, man, for sharing that.

20:13Jack MacinnesI think, I think it's like, it was why it was really re… it was super important to me for the film to contain the stories of these guys' lives before they went out to Somalia, and to talk about the training. Everyone talks about the training. I mean, Randy Ramalia talked to us about, you know, how they were turned into attack dogs, you know, that's the phrase he used. You know, that you are, you know, their job is to be the tip of the spear of the US Army, and they are very well-trained to be that. And, the, a lot of the guys we spoke to were very generous in the way they talked to us about that, and about how part of that is dehumanizing the enemy. I mean, you can't as a human being, you can't go and shoot at people regularly thinking, "I wonder if that guy has a kid. Has he got, you know…

21:03Jawad MirYeah

21:03Jack Macinnes... Has he got siblings? Is he, do, are people relying on him?" You know, you can't do that, and society asks those people to go and do that, and that's what we need them to be like. You know, we need those people to be able to do that. But boy, does it cause them problems later, you know? Tom Satterly was very open about that, you know, about how, you know, you know, thou shalt not kill is the, is the big, is the first commandment. And you're, is it the first one? I think it is. Probably don't think it is, but…

21:31Jawad MirI don't know which one it is, but it is a commandment…

21:32Jack MacinnesOne of them

21:33Jawad Mir... For sure, yeah.

21:33Jack MacinnesIt's, it's a commandment.

21:34Jawad MirYeah.

21:34Jack MacinnesAnd they're, they're asked to go and do that, and then it's only later when you're sitting back and you think about it that you suddenly realize what you've done. And on, one of the great things about this story is that guys were confronted with Somalis over a period of time up close. And, you know, usually if, you know, from the safety of a Humvee or from the safety of a Black Hawk, you know, their tactics were about speed and surprise. You're in and out quickly. This time they found themselves sharing a house with a Somali family for a night. You know, having to take the little girl to the toilet, you know?

22:11Jawad MirSure.

22:11Jack MacinnesHaving, you know, and that's what fucked with his head, was having to see that, and he didn't wanna see that. Because, and I hope that what our series gave a bit of insight into is that's, that's not their choice. You know, that's not who they are as humans. That's how, what the, what the military has trained them to be and I suppose what society needs them to be, you know, so that you and I don't have to go and shoot people. You know, they have to go and shoot people, and they have to be like that. And, so it, you know, while they were obviously on the side of the world's most powerful nation, you know, it's still just a guy. It's still just a guy and, you know, fighting for his life. And I, and I think, you know, it is, it is really, it's, it is challenging to make these films in this kind of polarized environment we live in at the moment, but I think it's a really exciting challenge. It's really exciting to make a film that no one can write off, you know? The thing I always really don't want is someone gets five minutes into this and goes, "Oh, this is, you know, woke bullshit," or goes, "Oh, this is kind of a MAGA film" or something.

23:17Jack MacinnesYou know, you wanna just be able to like, no, there's something for everyone here, and there's a challenge for everyone here. Like, no one watches this film and comes out the other end with their prejudices confirmed, you know? 'Cause life's just not that simple.

23:29Jawad MirYeah. And I'll give you a compliment, not from me. When the film…

23:32Jack MacinnesYeah

23:32Jawad Mir... When I, when I saw the trailer first, I shared it on WhatsApp groups, you know, friends, family.

23:37Jack MacinnesYeah.

23:38Jawad MirAnd s… one of my colleagues came back to me, he's like, "Oh, here we go, another American BS propaganda." Right? I'm like, "Have you seen the film? Watch the film. Watch the series first. Then if you make that argument, I'm all for listening."

23:51Jawad MirAnd he was blown away by it.

23:53Jack MacinnesYeah. Great.

23:54Jawad MirSo, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's again, like these perceptions that we have…

23:58Jack MacinnesYeah

23:58Jawad Mir... Because I'm s… right now I'm struggling on a, on a pro… well, I shouldn't say struggling, but it's a, it's a proof of concept about what's going on in Middle East.

24:08Jack MacinnesRight.

24:08Jawad MirTo turn into a feature. And… Trying to juggle the balance, right? And I'm getting a lot of resistance that, "Why are you not…

24:21Jack MacinnesYeah

24:21Jawad Mir... Doing it this way or that way?" But when I hear those things, as challenging as that is, I tell myself maybe it's me being delusional, I'm on the right path. Because when you are ticking off everybody, then you're doing something right to some extent, I think.

24:35Jack MacinnesYeah, I think that's right. Yeah, and you know, I think the kind of safety as a documentary maker is just, it's why, it's why I really, I really love the direction the genre's been going in the last few years in that there's appetite for films with, without, with… without an authorial voice. You know, th… there's no one, there's no one refereeing, there's no one sort of giving you the final answer here. It's just people who are there, their version of events, their experiences. There they are for you to watch and make of what you want, you know. I'm not there to tell you who was right and who was wrong. You know, I'm just there to just kind of lay it out. And obviously there are, there are editorial choices on the way, but I was very keen that I felt the way those people telling those stories to me was like accurately reflected in what came out…

25:28Jawad MirYeah

25:28Jack Macinnes... Even if they were being truncated. And that, you know, as you say, if there's, if different people are getting pissed off in different bits of the series, you're probably getting it right.

25:38Jawad MirYeah.

25:39Jack MacinnesYeah.

25:39Jawad MirDo you fi… do you find, you know, I just lost my train of thought. When you are working on something like this… ... Right, there's always that challenge... Let me, let me just rephrase this question. So okay, so when you're working on a project like this, or any project, when you're trying to tell, it doesn't even have to be political. It could be…

26:05Jawad Mir... You know, a husband, wife, and their story, and trying to tell from their angle. Like, how, and I know this for myself, it's like I'm always playing a game of ping pong in my head.

26:17Jack MacinnesYeah.

26:17Jawad MirI'm going this way and that way and that way and this way.

26:19Jack MacinnesYeah.

26:20Jawad MirH… how do you deal with that if that is the case? Like, to not let, because it's a very challenging thing not to let your emotions take over facts.

26:28Jack MacinnesYes. I think, I think in a way what helps for me is that the need to be fair to both sides and to be factual for me like really dovetails with what you want to do dramatically. You know? Which is that it's not dramatically interesting to be in one mindset for three hours. It's not dramatically interesting to be in the same place by the end as you were at the beginning. And so that ping pong, that thing where you're s… your sympathies shift from one side to the other is something really desirable dramatically, which therefore makes it exciting and rather than as a difficult challenge, you know. And I think the, what is challenging is obviously when you're in an edit and you are trying to boil this down, you know, you're hyper-aware that you know, you turn up one bit, you turn down another bit, it kind of shifts the balance.

27:33Jack MacinnesBut, yeah, I mean in terms of, in terms of emotions and facts, it's,... You know, I think that the, you know, the, you know, that balance is always there. It's, you've got to ask the question of every fact a… as to sort of what is that, what is that doing narratively and what is that doing in terms of your understanding of the bigger picture, of the bigger story? And, you know, you know, you can't, you know, there were a million facts about this event that we didn't have time to tell.

28:22Jack MacinnesAnd, you know, but you know, do you, if you're telling one story of, you know, for instance, one of the challenges we had is there were, you know, the Somalis could point to a number of different events before October the 3rd that radicalized them against the American event.

28:43Jawad MirYeah.

28:43Jack MacinnesDo we need to tell all of them, you know? We, Ahmed Five, who amazingly was there and filmed it very powerfully tells us about the Bloody Monday event. That felt sufficient, you know. So obviously there are people who might say, "You've left out some details here," you know. Same goes for the crimes of, you know, Mohamed Farrah Aidid. We, there's, there is another kind of documentary which would really be fundamentally interested in the day by day, month by month, week by week process by which this happened. But it felt to me that like in this kind of slightly more sort of cinematic space, the important thing was to tell the emotional truth of what had radicalized the Somalis against the Americans, what had, what led America to want to be there in the first place. And once that was clear, the, you don't want a sea of facts to obscure that.

29:44Jack MacinnesYou want, you… You wanna make those editorial choices that you feel get to the heart of what was really happening here. And that's, and I think I suppose that's a way in which I definitely consider myself a filmmaker more than a journalist, that what was really important to me was to understand those people who were there on October the 3rd shooting at each other. And in some cases, going beyond what is even, you know, normal practice in the military on both sides. You know, what was motivating that hatred? What was motivating those feelings? And… See the, see the facts of the story in that context. You know, why was, why was Yasin Daro prepared to fight for the, fight to the death? You know, what, you know, Brad Thomas is, you know, what he said, his finger barely came off the trigger that day, it's 'cause he just saw his buddy, you know, he was in training with, you know, who he'd been at the beach with that morning, he just saw get shot, you know, by a Somali crowd.

30:48Jack MacinnesYou know, you need, you, that, and then, and then I think once you, once you've done that, once you've gone through those character experiences, suddenly the sea of facts starts to make sense.

31:00Jawad MirYeah. That's true. That's true.

31:02Jack MacinnesYeah.

31:03Jawad MirTell me, I'm just gonna go backtrack and then I'm gonna come back in the future. What was the reason you became a director, a producer, a filmmaker? What, was there a certain… So for me, Jurassic Park did it.

31:19Jack MacinnesYeah. Oh, really?

31:20Jawad MirYeah, that was the pivotal moment in my life j… when it came out. So what was it that for you that a director, a film, a moment in life that made you realize this is what I wanna do for the rest of my life?

31:32Jack MacinnesIt's interesting, like, I, you know, my... To begin with I thought I wanted to do theater. You know, I was, I was, that was, that was my first love and I really loved it. But there was a, I think a film that I saw that really inspired me and stayed with me. There's a film called In This World by Michael Winterbottom, which is a, which was a narrative film.

32:00Jack MacinnesIt came out about 2003. And it was, but it... I found myself watching it going, "Is this, is this a documentary? What is this?" Like, this felt so real, and it's the story of, two Afghan brothers trying to escape to Europe, and it's so real and it's so visceral and, it was, he was using documentary te… techniques to make a narrative film, and it was, it was so inspirational to me as what you could do with film, and the audience you can reach with that kind of story using those techniques was very, it was very inspirational to me. And, yeah, I think I, you know, as I said, my first love was theater but I start, I think what drew me to film over theater was the feeling that I wanted to be sort of fighting in the big arena.

33:04Jack MacinnesYou know, the arena where, you know, the most people are watching, where people's views of the world are being, are being settled. You know, pe… people who maybe, you know, don't read The New York Times and The Guardian and go to the theater every week. You know, the, you know, just everybody. And I knew some people who were working in that field. I k… There was, there was a friend of mine who left university and went and made a documentary for the BBC, and he told me he'd made it about this, these twins, conjoined twins in Africa, and he just came and he went off and had that experience, he met those people, he came back and I can't remember, like 2 million people watched the film. You know, and I remember thinking, "That's what I wanna be doing." You know, I wanna, I wanna go out there, I wanna meet those people, and then I wanna have that kind of impact. And so yeah, it was, it's, it's sort of, it's been a kind of slight weird sort of crooked path I've taken to doing this, but I think those, when I, when I try to look back, those are kind of p… some of the moments that sort of jump out as maybe that was what spurred me on.

34:24Jawad MirYeah.

34:24Jack MacinnesYeah.

34:24Jawad MirIt's interesting you talk about, In This World. So I saw that film in 2016.

34:32Jack MacinnesYeah.

34:33Jawad MirAnd in 2018 I came across a story of an Afghan, filmmaker who fled…

34:40Jack MacinnesYeah

34:40Jawad Mir... Some Taliban because he was on their hit list.

34:42Jack MacinnesYeah.

34:42Jawad MirSo he leaves his pregnant wife and his kids behind without saying goodbye, and he ends up in Europe's worst refugee detention center.

34:50Jack MacinnesYeah.

34:50Jawad MirThe film is called Citizen of Moria if you, if you wanna check it out, but that part In This World, the narrative thread… ... Is what, I didn't realize until last year, inspired me to use that thread in Citizen of Moria as well.

35:07Jack MacinnesYeah.

35:07Jawad MirSo those, the narrative thread in documentary I think to me if that was, I think that's the best form of, I'm not trying to put down any other medium.

35:16Jack MacinnesYeah.

35:16Jawad MirI'm working on a narrative right now.

35:18Jack MacinnesYeah.

35:18Jawad MirBut that to me is the best kind of medium because you're telling a raw story, but you're doing… ... A whole arc…

35:24Jack MacinnesYeah

35:24Jawad Mir... And not knowing where the film is gonna go, where the story is gonna go.

35:28Jack MacinnesYeah.

35:28Jawad MirAnd that's fascinating.

35:30Jack MacinnesIt's, it's really, it's really fascinating. Yeah, no, I'm, I haven't seen Citizen of Moria but I watched the trailer after you got in touch with me, and it looks great and, you know, I've been to Moria as well actually, because…

35:40Jawad MirOh, you did? When?

35:42Jack MacinnesYeah, in, probably that would've been in 2016. 2015, 2016.

35:46Jawad MirOkay. So when it was in the early days.

35:48Jack MacinnesIn the early days, yeah. We, 'cause, 'cause I, you know, I was also, I've been making a really long to… long form refugee documentary which, and I made a, I was part of a team, we made a BBC series in 2015, 2016 called Exodus, which was, you know, an incredible experience. And there's, it was actually only…

36:10Jawad MirYeah, I know what you're talking about. I know what you…

36:12Jack MacinnesYeah

36:12Jawad Mir... Exactly what you're talking about.

36:13Jack MacinnesAnd it's, it was, it's interesting, like only after making that did I realize the resonances between that and In This World. I hadn't even really had that film in mind, but in a way it wa… it was just like you're saying, it was the same thing of following… Following refugees as they tried to kind of make it from the Middle East to Europe. And yeah, and now I'm, I'm sort of in the throes at the moment of making a film which I've been making independently for 10 years, basically, with one of those families, who, you know, escaped Syria in 2015. And yeah, I completely agree with you. It's, it's, it's super challenging taking something on where you don't know what the end of the story is. But also really exciting. And, you know, and it, you know, trying to put real lives into the frame of a story, you know, is kind of, you know, is sort of I suppose is what we're all trying to do with our own lives all the time, you know? It's like, what's my hero's narrative of my, of my life or my friend's life?

37:14Jack MacinnesAnd you know, what you realize is that, is that ordinary lives don't necessarily, real lives don't, don't necessarily fit that pattern, and then you're forced to kind of think, "Well, what is the story here? What is really going on here?" You're forced to address your own presumptions and your…

37:31Jawad MirYeah

37:31Jack Macinnes... Perceptions of where you think the story's gonna go. And that's, you know, and I think, and that, and that's, that's really exciting, and I feel like, that's, that's what documentary will always be able to offer. Especially that kind of purest form where you're starting off at the beginning and you just don't know where this is going.

37:52Jawad MirYeah. I… it's true. And you know, it just, I… I'm not gonna go into detail about this but, you know, we were talking about that moment earlier where, the character in your film, I forget the name, became vulnerable.

38:05Jack MacinnesYeah.

38:06Jawad MirAnd that moment where he never even knew that was there because nobody had asked him that question. When I was making in S… Citizen of Moria… ... There was a spontaneous moment where I asked Ahmed, who's the protagonist, who's also a co-director of the film…

38:25Jack MacinnesYeah

38:25Jawad Mir... "Let's go to the beach and let's just do a talk on camera, just random." And there was no plan. I, it just kinda happened to me in the morning. And the, I had no questions. I had nothing prepared.

38:40Jack MacinnesYeah.

38:41Jawad MirGo to the beach, and he stands at the be… by the, on the beach…

38:45Jack MacinnesYeah

38:45Jawad Mir... And you know, I start rolling. And I ask him, "So tell me what, how you left Afghanistan." And he started talking, and he started crying. He became complete... I'm like, "Holy crap." And then I asked him, "Do you feel guilty?"

39:02Jack MacinnesYeah.

39:04Jawad MirAnd then he s… says, "Yes," but interestingly, that question, do you feel guilty, reminded me of a time in my life… ... That was buried for decades.

39:19Jack MacinnesYeah.

39:19Jawad MirAnd that became the core of the film.

39:23Jack MacinnesYeah.

39:24Jawad MirAnd it's so fascinating even for us as directors.

39:26Jack MacinnesYeah.

39:26Jawad MirI'm sure you've had that experience. Like it rem… it just brings up something that…

39:31Jack MacinnesYeah

39:32Jawad Mir... You didn't even know was there.

39:33Jack MacinnesYeah. And it's, it's so true. You know, as a documentary director, you are a participant at that moment, and you're bringing your own…

39:40Jawad MirYeah

39:40Jack Macinnes... Emotions to it as well. It's, I do find, you know, make it, doing those interviews is just the most sort of, you know, exhilarating kind of higher wi… high wire act. You know, you, y… I find you've got to engage so many different parts of your brain at the same time, you know? You've gotta have, you gotta have a plan. You gotta have a, you gotta have s… you gotta be underst… you gotta understand what you're trying to get, but you've also gotta be prepared for that plan to go straight out the window, and then you've gotta be able to react to the human being in front of you, be a human being with them. And then somehow kind of retain in your mind, "I need to go back and ask him about this bit." And I'm, you know, I'm gonna pick back up on that again. And it's, I find it so, it's, you know, you, I know like musicians talk about, you know, the minute you don't get stage fright, you should retire, you know? Like the, you know, the da… the night before, the day before, you're, you're anxious like, have I, you know?

40:40Jack MacinnesAnd then, and then in, but then when the kind of the lights are on and the camera's on and it's happening, it's, it's, you know, a really exciting place to be. And especially when you really feel like you're starting to connect and so… and things are coming out and it's real. And, yeah, I can, I can, I completely identify with that moment you're describing.

41:01Jawad MirAmazing.

41:02Jack MacinnesYeah.

41:02Jawad MirT… tell me about this refugee film if, whatever you can talk about that you're working for the last 10 years.

41:07Jack MacinnesYeah. It's a, it's a film. I mean, we've got a, we've got a working title for it, which is One in a Million, based on the idea that, you know, a million refugees left… Left Syria and settled in Europe in 2015. And our film centers around one girl who was 11 years old at that time, who we filmed her and her family. And, we, she was included in the, in Exodus, which, you know, and she was a beautiful part of that series. And you know, that series, you know, went on to have a lot of success at awards. And I was, the, it was my wife and I who were making, who were filming her together 'cause my wife's from Syria. And so…

41:55Jack Macinnes... So the two of us were like, we're a sort of husband and wife filmmaker pair doing that, and we sort of felt like we'd become so close to her and her family over the course of this that we, that it felt inconceivable that we weren't gonna keep going to see her. And we also felt that the sort of few months we felt we filmed her for the original documentary, including her first months in Germany, were just kind of insufficient to ask, answer the question, did this work out, you know? And you know, both did this work out from her perspective, you know? That's the most important thing, you know? Did it work out for the host country? You know, did they, was, you know, was, did they do the right thing? The world's asking, did they do the right thing? You know, a year after that, we, the world changed a lot. And so those kind of two things came together in our head as, you know, an idea to sort of make a kind of, you know, boyhood doc.

42:55Jack MacinnesYou know…

42:55Jawad Mirhuh

42:55Jack Macinnes... What if you film someone for, you know, for 10 years and, you know, and see how this pans out. And so for the last 10 years in between other projects, we've been going to visit her in Germany where she lives, and then i… you know, we're, we're in the edit on that now. And it just so happened that we were in, we were with them in Germany in December when the Syrian regime fell. And then, last month we went back to Syria with her. You know?

43:26Jawad MirOh, wow.

43:27Jack MacinnesSo it's ended up feeling like a really great bookend. You know, that's a complete accident that's, you know, where we were drawing the line under filming and when that happened. So it's, you know, it's a film, you know, which is gonna cover that whole period of time and what happened to her and her family in between and, you know, it's a, you know, it's a real kind of labor of love and, you know, I'm, you know, ho… hoping it's gonna be a really interesting window into, you know, the reality, you know, that, you know, as I said earlier, is not, is not the, you know, the cliches that we shout at each other about immigration. It's the reality.

44:07Jawad MirYeah.

44:07Jack MacinnesYou know?

44:07Jawad MirWell, it's interesting because when you were telling me all this, the only thing that I got hooked on was the boyhood…

44:13Jack MacinnesYeah

44:14Jawad Mir... Movie, the…

44:15Jack MacinnesYeah.

44:15Jawad MirBut when you told me she went back to Syria…

44:17Jack MacinnesYeah

44:18Jawad Mir... Now I'm intrigued to see it.

44:20Jack MacinnesYeah.

44:20Jawad MirReally intrigued to see it.

44:21Jack MacinnesYeah.

44:21Jawad MirWhen are you guys planning to run it through festivals, this year or next year?

44:25Jack MacinnesWe're, we're, we're hoping to, we're hoping to get it in this year, but, let's see. Let's see. Some, we were, we were due, we were due to, we were due to pitch Lockyer at the beginning of the year and get it out to festivals in the spring, but, events happened. And so now we're, we're in, so we're… we're reassessing all that, but it'd be great if we could get it out in the autumn. Otherwise, it'll be next year.

44:47Jawad MirKeep me posted about it, man.

44:49Jack MacinnesTotally.

44:49Jawad MirI would love to see it

44:50Jack MacinnesOh

44:50Jawad Mir... Even if, I would love to have you guys on…

44:53Jack MacinnesYeah

44:54Jawad Mir... The podcast because I think, I think you and I have similar interest in storytelling from what I can gather…

45:00Jack MacinnesYeah

45:00Jawad Mir... In terms of podcast, but, I would love to check it out, man. I would love to…

45:03Jack MacinnesYeah

45:03Jawad Mir... I'd be, check it out.

45:05Jack MacinnesGreat. Yeah, thanks.

45:07Jawad MirAwesome, man. Anything other exciting stuff going on besides that you can talk about as we wrap it up?

45:13Jack MacinnesNo. I'm, I think, it's been, you know, it's been great to be doing this project now, 'cause it feels like, you know, it's a complete, palette cleanser after Blackwood Down, a really different kind of series. And, you know, it's, it's kind of allowing me time to think what the next project would be, you know, 'cause I think, you know, Surviving Blackwood Down was one of those projects which I think sort of opened my eyes as to what's possible in this genre and I'm really keen to sort of explore that fur… further. So, yeah. Don't…

45:47Jawad MirAmazing, man

45:48Jack Macinnes... Quite know what that is yet.

45:49Jawad MirAnything with a narrative, outside of doc world?

45:53Jack MacinnesYeah, I'm exploring that option. I'm really, I'm really interested in that idea 'cause I think you'll know as a documentary maker as well, documentary, there's a lot of possibilities with documentary, but there's also a lot of possibilities that are closed off by the need to be fair and sensitive to real people who maybe don't want certain parts of their lives revealed…

46:11Jawad MirYeah

46:11Jack Macinnes... Who don't want certain things filmed. And, you know, more and more, you know, I'm starting to look into the idea of narrative treatments to some of those subjects that, you know, to tell, to tell those stories, and I'm, I'm, so I'm, I'm having some of those conversations. I'm really excited about that.

46:30Jawad MirAmazing, man. That's g…

46:31Jack MacinnesYeah

46:31Jawad Mir... I'm really glad to hear that. Great stuff. Thank you so much, man, for your valuable time, for your insight, for your, generosity, for your softness, all that stuff. I mean, you really, it was really cool to talk to you and just talk about the deep human emotion because that…

46:48Jack MacinnesYeah

46:48Jawad Mir... It connects us all. The, that's the tissue that connects us all. So thank you so much.

46:52Jack MacinnesThanks, man. It's very great to talk to another film lover about it.