'Predator, Killer of Killers', Writer, Micho Robert Rutare

0:00Micho Robert RutareWhen we did our first advanced screening, which was basically the premiere of the movie at Beyond Fest at the Egyptian Theater in Hollywood…

0:07Jawad MirRight

0:07Micho Robert Rutare... You know, that's the first time we're really seeing it with an audience, like a real audience, not just a friends and family audience. And that moment killed. It killed. Like, everybody…

0:18Jawad MirI bet

0:18Micho Robert Rutare... Got it, works, and that's, that's, that's Dan, you know? I would love to say, "Yes, I put that Easter egg in there, and everybody w…," but Dan does remember every little thing, and so he lives and breathes this stuff.

0:41Jawad MirWelcome back, everyone, to Kingdom of Dreams podcast and Making of Stories. I'm your host Jawad Nir. Yes, I know I've been away. It's been kind of crazy with work and a film that I'm working on, plus just haven't had the time to get the guests on. Now we've got about seven, eight, recordings already done. And, today my guest is Mico Roberts, who is the writer on the most recent Predator: Killer of the Killers, the animated feature. It's an incredible film that came out on Friday. I wasn't expecting it to be that great, to be honest. I had seen the trailer. But it just blew away my expectations. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Mico Roberts for Killer of the Killers. Good to have you. How has your weekend been?

1:24Micho Robert RutareWell, it's been crazy. It's been, one of the more memorable weekends of my, of my life.

1:32Jawad MirAnd that would be something related to what we're about to talk about, I'm guessing?

1:35Micho Robert RutareYeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, it's rare that you get, just a pure, critic… you know, a good reception critically and otherwise.

1:47Jawad MirThat's great. Well, since you started talking about it, just run through your sort of last two days, the reaction that you may... You know, obviously it feels good when you hear good things on something that you've worked on creatively, but obviously for that amount of time. What kind of stuff have you seen? What have you felt? And we'll g… dive into the actual film itself, right after that.

2:09Micho Robert RutareYou know, same thing everybody's seeing, which is just, you know, the audience, it being a really good fit for the audience, the au… the hardcore fans really appreciating it, and not just the hardcore fans, but general audiences as well. A lot of good critical reviews. And it's exhilarating because, you know, you spend your life wondering, "Can I, can I do it? Can I... Am I ever gonna be part of a movie that everybody likes and that does well, and, you know, is, performs well on the streaming services?" And then, you know, and then it happens, and it validates a lot of the struggle that, you know, you put into it.

2:50Jawad MirAmazing. Well, that's good to hear. So obviously we're talking about Killer of the Killers, the Predator new film, that, came on Hulu on Friday, right? June the 6th. Or was it Thursday?

3:02Micho Robert RutareThat's, yeah, it was, it was Friday.

3:03Jawad MirRight. Friday. And, so I, you know, just to kind of give you a bit of context myself about Predator world, I saw the very first Predator when I shouldn't have watched it. I was only, like, 11 years old, and, I'd s… I've seen it so many times since then. I've seen Predator 2. I haven't seen the Alien versus Predator series just because I d… it's not something that spoke to me, even in the trailer.

3:28Micho Robert RutareOh, you haven't even seen it?

3:30Jawad MirNo. No. I just, I've heard terrible things about it, but I know there's a lot of fans who love it. I've seen the Predator with, was it Adrien Brody one? That was pretty good.

3:42Micho Robert RutareYeah, Predators.

3:43Jawad MirThat was…

3:43Micho Robert RutareYeah.

3:43Jawad MirThe Predators, yeah. And those are the three that one, those are the three films that I like. And, when the pre… the trailer came out for Killer of the Killers, I think around the same time the Badlands trailer came out, too, which comes out in November. I mean, I'm, I've, I love animation and, it did speak to me, like, the trailer did speak to me, but I had absolutely no idea, number one, I don't know why, I thought it was a miniseries. That's the gist that I, that's the sense that I got from the trailer. But then when I started watching it, and as it, you know how it's, without revealing anything, it has these chapters. And when it goes from chapter to chapter, and especially at the, end of first chapter and beginning of second, there was that wow moment, like, "Okay, what just happened," right? And I absolutely loved it. And I have an anamorphic monitor. I've, I literally just watched it on that yesterday morning. And, yeah. Bravo. Really…

4:44Micho Robert RutareOh, thank you. Really glad you liked it

4:45Jawad Mir... Really well-written, which is something that we're here to talk about, of course, because you co… co-wrote it, if I'm not mistaken, or you are the main…

4:54Micho Robert RutareWell, I wrote it. I have sole writing credit, but I co-wrote the story with Dan.

5:00Jawad MirThat's right. You co-wrote the story, but you screen… you wrote the script. And, yeah, the animation, the sound, the music, everything was just bang on, so congratulations.

5:13Micho Robert RutareThank you. Thank you. It feels good. I mean, everybody was rowing in the same direction, and there wasn't a lot of backtracking or we didn't stall out. So it was just one of these h… I don't, I don't wanna call it a happy accident, because a lot of, most, the whole thing was intentional. But it's rare when you're working on a movie that you don't have some type of crisis moment where everybody goes, "Oh, what the fuck are we doing right now? We need to…"

5:38Micho Robert Rutare... "reverse course hard steps." And even great movies have that experience. But this one, everybody kind of got it. And there was lots of revisions and things, but all those changes were kind of within the four walls of what we all set out to do in the first place. So our energy was well spent, I think, on it. And yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm really glad it came together the way it did, and really glad the audiences are responding to it.

6:06Jawad MirYeah. And another Predator movie, which I forgot, Prey, which I absolutely loved too.

6:10Micho Robert RutareYeah, I was gonna, I was gonna ask. I'm like…

6:11Jawad MirRight. Yeah

6:12Micho Robert Rutare... Prey definitely.

6:13Jawad MirNo. I totally forgot. I mean, yeah, it's, it's an amazing film too, and, it… when did you start writing this? I'm just curious because I'm going to ask you... Actually, t… I shouldn't ask you that. So I read a comment yesterday. I watched the Prey trailer again.

6:28Micho Robert RutareYeah.

6:28Jawad MirAnd I went, you know, you go into the comments, you, I think it was in 2022, I'm like to guess, or…

6:33Micho Robert RutareYeah

6:33Jawad Mir... '21, but likely '22, 2022. And it said it'd be really cool if we, the Predator universe explores different time periods and different cultures. And, you know, and I had a smile on my face when I read that because I had already seen, the film that you worked on, and that's what's so incredible about it. But to me, the thing that spo… sp…, stood out the most, especially in chapter two, I would say, in chapter one, two, was the lack of dialogue.

7:03Micho Robert RutareYeah.

7:04Jawad MirAnd that is not easy thing to do, and to be able to convey what you wanna convey. So yeah, I felt like I was watching a Quint… Quentin Tarantino film because of the chapters…

7:15Micho Robert RutareRight

7:16Jawad Mir... And, right? And

7:16Micho Robert RutareThat's always Dan's, that's, from a structural standpoint, that's how Dan thinks of it, as Pulp Fiction, you know?

7:23Jawad MirYeah. And I, and I thought about it because I'm in the industry too, and I thought about it. I'm not, I'm not gonna reveal anything, but I think you will understand what I'm saying, is that if it was not chapters, right, if it was, like a basically back and forth, for the lack of better word, how would you feel? Like, how would the audience take it? And I don't think it would be received really well because you…

7:44Micho Robert RutareWait, just so I understand the hypothetical, it would be, you would be cutting…

7:48Jawad MirWell, the…

7:49Micho Robert Rutare... In between the stories? Is that what you're…

7:50Jawad MirYeah. Back and forth, right? And I think because, and the reason I say that is because I was watching this interview, I wasn't watching, I was speaking to the editor of, Megalopolis, who worked on, Francis Ford Coppola's Megalopolis.

8:03Micho Robert RutareOkay.

8:03Jawad MirAnd he was telling me a story that how Francis Ford Coppola, and it ties into this, Godfather Part II, they had a screening, and the audience didn't like it. They hated it, and Francis Ford Coppola was, like, freaking out. He went underneath his bed trying to figure out, "What the hell have I done wrong?" And…

8:21Micho Robert RutareOh, he's freaking out.

8:23Jawad MirYeah, right? Francis Ford Coppola, of all the people. And…

8:27Micho Robert RutareYeah

8:27Jawad Mir... He, I think it was him, he had the revelation, or him and his editor had a revelation, that they realized that the t… the timelines from past and present, you know, the Robert De Niro and Al Pacino, they were cutting in back and forth way too quickly.

8:44Jawad MirSo what they did was they extended each period by 10 minutes, so each period was about 20 minutes long, and it did the trick.

8:52Micho Robert RutareYeah.

8:53Jawad MirAnd I think, and I think that's exactly what happened, for me at least, in this serie… in this film too similarly. But anyways, I mean, a lot about that. I just wanna point it out.

9:00Micho Robert RutareWell, but I do think, I do think that when you, just thinking about Godfather II, especially the love story in Italy, you know, you have to, you could've gotten away, I think, with cutting a little bit more i… with the Robert De Niro thing, although it plays perfectly the way it is. But you need to, you need to let that story of his romance…

9:22Jawad MirYeah

9:22Micho Robert Rutare... Develop, climax, and have a tragic ending, you know, all, you need to be there with that, to really feel that. And the sense of being, I mean, here we are talking about Godfather II, but the sense of being in exile, the sense of, and even just the colors, you know, the light in Italy versus New York City, and…

9:42Jawad MirYeah

9:42Micho Robert Rutare... So that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, to your point, that… that's why it does work in our structure, is that we're, we're, we're putting you into a whole new world, and we're hoping, and the, and the thing that I'm proud of and that we're, everyone's commenting on, is that we are able to create a little mini movie and a little universe unto itself before we move to the next chapter. And so I think, yeah, the thing that, the thing that I'm, that I am proud of, that we've done a good job with, is, like, we've achieved an epic sweep on a very scant runtime, you know? I mean, it's not 90 minutes. It's, like, 84 minutes. I mean, there, you can talk about the credit sequence and the post-credit.

10:23Jawad MirYeah.

10:24Micho Robert RutareBut yeah, I mean, that, so, and the, and the beauty of that is it's just, if we just were constrained with the budget. I mean, people say, like, "Oh, it's animation, and you can do whatever you want," and that's kind of true, but you, we had to pick, we had to make choices really quickly, really early for it to have time to cook and for the artists and the animators to really get that right. So a lot of things had to, we didn't really have a chance to go back and do-overs, you know? So anyway.

10:53Jawad MirYeah, no, that's, that's phenomenal, man. I mean, we will di… dive into it a little bit more afterwards, but I, before we, what I would love to know is that, so I went through your credits, right?

11:04Micho Robert RutareYeah.

11:04Jawad MirAnd obvious… IMDb sometimes is not accurate, so please correct me. You know, I think you were a development executive on s… some of the Sharknado movies. And…

11:14Micho Robert RutareYeah, the first, the first ones. Yeah

11:15Jawad Mir... Yeah, and then some, I think it was some kid shows or kids movies. I forget, the Jurassic something. It was called Jurassic

11:22Micho Robert RutareYeah, I, it's, I don't, we, I started claiming that development executive credit, and, 'cause it's not a real, I mean, it's not a, an industry…

11:31Jawad MirI know, I know. Yeah

11:32Micho Robert Rutare... Studio executives don't get that c… but I'm like, "Damn it, I need something to show for myself in this department here." So I have a many more of those credits that didn't show. I don't know why the ones that did do, but yeah, I worked at The Asylum, which is a, which, was a direct-to, at the, at, when I started, direct-to-DVD, but basically a, basically a B-movie studio that does low-budget independent films.

11:55Jawad MirYeah.

11:56Micho Robert RutareAnd so my IMDb is filled with low-budget independent filmmaking.

12:00Jawad MirSo which is fine. It's a, it's a great journey. I know when you're traveling through that journey, it's probably sometimes not as fine, you know, because like you said earlier, that finally the hard work kind of…... Paid off. It's like the, obviously the first step. But then, and then you, now you worked on this, which is, like, one of the biggest franchises that needed some sort of reboot, which kind of, kind of did from Prey. But how did you get onto this, and start working with Dan? Just run through that story to me, how…

12:28Micho Robert RutareYeah

12:28Jawad Mir... Were you familiar with the Predator world or?

12:31Micho Robert RutareYeah, I was. I mean, I was as familiar as anybody, you know, but the origin of me working on this movie, it really actually goes back to the beginning of my filmmaking, where, the way that I've, my career has kind of ended up is it's been a series of collaborative friendships that, you know, you work together, and then down the road, you know, people recommend you for things and help you out. And so in my case, the producer of Killer of Killers, Ben Rosenblatt, was really instrumental in the whole thing. I mean, the whole idea of Dan directing two movies in one year, he could never have done it without Ben Rosenblatt. And Ben Rosenblatt's, he's the, he's the type of person who he can see around the corner, and he can see how all the pieces are gonna come together and, before anyone else does, and he'll push people along into that frame, and that's what happened with me. So he was working with Dan. So Ben and I were, we met as freshmen in college at Michigan State.

13:35Micho Robert Rutare... And we made student films together. We made two feature films. Those are not on my IMDb because this was long before…

13:42Jawad MirSure

13:43Micho Robert Rutare... You know, my directing career. But we made two feature films, and, did okay. You know, we won the local film festival, doing that, and then he moved out to Hollywood. He encouraged me to move out to Hollywood, so w… we always had this idea of working together, and then in 2018, I left The Asylum and started working with Ben on different projects. And so part of the story of IMDb is that it never tells you the whole story because there's people who work all the time who have very few credits, and then…

14:14Jawad MirYeah

14:15Micho Robert Rutare... And so for me, like, we had, we made a couple different series that we tried to pitch and get made, that never got made. And so he and I had been working together for a minute when he started working with Dan on Prey, and he kind of helped him out on Prey. And then there were, there were some friends and family screenings that they invited me to, and I just started giving my feedback on the, on the rough cut of Prey and then the further iterations. And credit to Dan, I mean, he really kind of appreciated my perspective and kept bringing me back to these screenings to give notes. And when this movie percolated, so the concept, before I was hired, the concept was just Viking, samurai, World War II pilot, and then secretly the arena at the end. And Ben knew me not just as the, you know, B movie Asylum guy, but also, like, for years I've been trying to get into epic historical action.

15:20Micho Robert RutareLike, that's the genre that I always wanted to work in. You can't do that when you're working on monster movies and disaster movies and everything else, Lifetime movies, but that's been my ambition. And so because I love history, like a lot of people, it's funny because a lot of people that are, they would assume, you know, it's like, oh, you gotta be a film nerd. And I'm, I'm a filmmaker nerd, but I'm not a film nerd the way that I am a history nerd.

15:46Micho Robert RutareAnd so I brought that perspective to this project.

15:50Jawad MirRight.

15:50Micho Robert RutareAnd also having worked at The Asylum and having worked on so many genre movies, I have a real sense of, like, what is, what i… what is it, when you're making an, a genre movie. So any, the audience has a certain amount of, has a relationship to the genre, and they have expectations for what they want out of the genre movie. And the thing that I learned is that you have to d… you have to meet those expectations. The number one priority is giving the audience what they want, and even if that means they didn't know they wanted it, but you have to give them the goods. And I think a lot of times filmmakers overthink it, and they wanna put a little twist on it and put a little mustard on it, but, like, you just have to deliver the goods, and that's what the audience is there for.

16:32Jawad MirYeah. I mean, for me, you know, yes, it's the Predator universe. Yes, the historical parts that you mentioned. Yes, the animation is great, the mu… everything is great, but again, it always comes back to the story and the relationships, right? Like, it's, in the Viking, it's the fa… mother and son. You know, in the World War II it's the father and son slash fa… you know, son, a soldier and his, senior officer. And then in the Japanese one, you know, it's basically two guys trying to compete for the same thing, and it's, that's what makes it amazing. Like, I've seen, I'm sure you have, too, you've seen some incredible stuff production-wise, like, you know, budgets and all that, but the story lacks or it's not that strong. But that's what I love, especially for me, the second chapter was my favorite. I mean, just because I said earlier, and it just, yeah, it's, it's incredible, man. Like, I was li… re… literally not expecting it because of so many disappointments in the Predator world.

17:31Micho Robert RutareYeah.

17:31Jawad MirAnd, but I loved the Prey, and I love this, so yeah. I, you know, let's, let's talk about the actual series, let's talk about the film in a little bit more detail. What was it that moment where you felt, you know, before it even got into production, that in terms of story and script, that you've got something? Like, that, personally, for you. You know, we all have those feelings most of the time, but was it something different and special that you felt that you got something special?

18:04Micho Robert RutareYeah, and, you know, those feelings when you do have them, they are kind of fleeting, unfortunately. And so… ... It, having that feeling at all is, like, a great,... Is a great experience and, you know. But I think the moment for me was, at, well, shout out to the production designer, Amy Carter, who, she was the one who first kind of put that wind in my sails because, you know, I'm the type of, a lot of writers are this way, we're kind of needy and neurotic, and even if we're doing a great job, we see the problems, we see the bullshit. It's hard to feel genuinely, like, proud of yourself, you know?

18:53Jawad MirTrue. That's…

18:54Micho Robert RutareAnd working on the team, you know, day in and day out, 'cause it really is, it's just like constantly iterating, constantly going back and forth. N… nobody on the team is gonna stop and go, I mean, once here and there, "Good job, you know, hey, nice new scene. I love this new scene."

19:10Jawad MirYeah.

19:10Micho Robert RutareBut you don't get that global, like, pat on the back of like, you're really…

19:14Jawad MirWhich is why you're making it, which is why you're making it, for one of the many…

19:18Micho Robert RutareRight

19:18Jawad Mir... Many reasons, right?

19:19Micho Robert RutareBut I remember the production designer, who I didn't meet, 'cause a lot of this is done remotely, you know?

19:24Jawad MirYeah.

19:24Micho Robert RutareI hadn't met her yet. But sh… she sent an email to the producer saying like, "I just gotta tell you, I really love this Versa character, and I love, I love this, I love this script." And I felt touched by that. And I'm like, "Oh, maybe I am doing something good here." And the real moment, though, was at our very first friends and family test screening when the, you know, the mo… the, a lot of the animation isn't done, a lot of the sound isn't done. People come in and they give feedback, and we screened it into this room, and granted, they were friends and family, and coworkers, whatever, but it would, just worked. It worked from the beginning. And so that gave us the confidence to keep pushing, and to keep refining, and to keep making it even better, and that's where you wanna be. It's kind of like, I don't know if you play golf. I don't really play golf, but the game of golf…

20:13Jawad MirHere and there.

20:15Micho Robert RutareSo here and there is enough. Same, it's really whether you're writing drafts of a script or you're making cuts of a film, it's a lot like golf, where you want your shot off the tee to get as close to the green, if not on the green, as possible. You don't wanna shank it. You don't wanna have to go looking in the weeds for it. And on this movie, we, our first shot, we got it onto the green, and then it was just a matter of putts. And so that's, that's kind of part of why it worked

20:45Jawad MirNice. And how much, did you go back and watch all of the Predator movies or some of them? Because I love, the reference to Predator 2, which I'm not gonna reveal, that you had in there, which was pretty neat. Because I've seen that scene so many times, the reference that I'm talking about. I…

21:06Micho Robert RutareYeah

21:06Jawad Mir... So when that happened in your film, I literally paused it, I went to YouTube, and I wanted to make sure that it was the exact same thing. And lo and be…

21:15Micho Robert RutareThat moment, point-blank

21:16Jawad MirYeah

21:16Micho Robert Rutare... I guess we're not spoiling anything. I…

21:19Jawad MirI'm, I'm not saying anything. I'll let you figure, say if you want to.

21:21Micho Robert RutareI'll go, I think I know what you're talking about. In that moment, that was another moment, I mean, it was, the, there was all these signposts of like, "Yeah, this is working." And the devil's advocate in me kept finding reasons to think maybe it's not working.

21:36Jawad MirYeah.

21:36Micho Robert RutareBut then when we did our first advanced screening, which was basically the premiere of the movie at Beyond Fest at the Egyptian Theatre in Hollywood…

21:44Jawad MirRight

21:44Micho Robert Rutare... You know, that's the first time we're really seeing it with an audience, like a real audience, not just a friends and family audience. And that moment killed. It killed. Like everybody…

21:55Jawad MirI bet

21:55Micho Robert Rutare... Got it, works, and that's, that's, that's Dan. You know, I would love to say, "Yes, I put that Easter egg in there, and everybody w…" But Dan, you talked about, like, rewatching things. Like I needed to rewatch them all. I needed to, like I have to constantly refresh, you know, my brain. Because my brain remembers a lot of the history, but, like, I have to, I have to rescreen the movies. You know, I'm not gonna remember every little thing. But Dan does. Dan does remember every little thing, and so he lives and breathes this stuff. I mean, the key to Dan, I think, is that, and the reason why, you talked about the comment in the, in the, underneath the p… the prey that you watched.

22:37Jawad MirYeah.

22:38Micho Robert RutareYou know, I don't think he's going around poaching. And also this idea, it's not that creat… I mean, it is creative, and I think

22:44Jawad MirOh, no That's not what I was suggesting.

22:46Micho Robert RutareNo, I know it's not what you're suggesting. My point is just that Dan is, Dan is the audience. Dan is the film nerd. He gets it, and that's why it's easy to row in the same direction, 'cause Dan's steering that ship, you know?

23:01Jawad MirAnd that's exactly what I meant, is that having this ability to know what the audience wants. Because until I saw this yesterday, it finally hit me. Because, you know, you have Predator 1, Predator 2, then you've got a bunch of Predator films, then you've got Alien versus Predator, and there was always, like every time they'd come out and they'd just tank, right? They don't do well critically and commercially. And it finally hit me, I'm like, "Why they haven't been trying different worlds?" Because that's all it was. Like, you know, you're trying to throw into the same, like, earth and same thing happening over and over again, and nothing seems different, and that's, that's what made the shift, with Prey as well as this.

23:40Micho Robert RutareYeah. Yeah, I mean, Prey, it was so smart on so many levels to do Native American versus Predator, because…

23:48Jawad MirYeah

23:49Micho Robert Rutare... And that, and that framework and the, and the latent potential in that premise is part of what sparked my approach to Killer of Killers, which is that, you know, there's a tendency to think about as separate silos the world building, the character development, and the plot. But what you wanna do is combine those threads to the point where they're indistinguishable from one another. You can't have this world without these characters. You can't have these characters without this world. You can't have this story without the, you know, blah. And part of what I tried to bring to it is… Not just saying, "Yeah, history, whatever," but really thinking about where in time and what was going on in the world of these particular Vikings. What's their backstory? What's the, what are the cross currents of culture? And I think, and same with, you know, same with the Japanese chapter, same with the World War II chapter, that, you know, in some ways Torres is like America itself, you know, kind of new to the war at this point in '42.

24:57Micho Robert RutareKind of has something to prove. Has all the panache, has all the, you know, the stuff, but kind of untested in battle at that point. And so bringing all of those forces and imbuing the characters with that perspective, I think is what, is what makes it work as well.

25:15Jawad MirYeah. No, absolutely. And I know this is, like, a very... It's a question that if somebody asked me, I would probably, like, it's not the right question, but I have to ask anyway. What chapter/character did you enjoy writing the most? And maybe if there is some, not… favorite is not the right word, that you could relate to more?

25:44Micho Robert RutareThat's a good quest… it is a good question, and I think enjoyment is interesting because, and I'm not filibu… I guess I'm a little bit filibustering, but enjoyment's interesting because the things that work the best aren't always the most fun.

26:01Jawad MirYeah.

26:01Micho Robert RutareAnd the things that are the most fun don't always work the best. I mean, in this case, luckily, according to most people, everything seems to work, so we did, we did get it that far. I will say that I nerded out the most and had the most fun with the first chapter, the Viking chapter…

26:18Micho Robert Rutare... Where, we're telling a story of someone who has been exiled from their home and from everything they love, and has lived in, has lived this life on the, on the seas as a Viking raider, and who's now returning to that home. And this is all very real in the history, actually, of what we call Russia today, is that it was founded by Viking raiders.

26:45Micho Robert RutareEven Rus. So Ersa herself is a fictionalized character, but the Kievan Rus were kind of... Vikings get a lot of credit for being, like, badass warriors, which they are, but they're underrated as, commercial, you know, traders. They found, like, Arabian, you know, dinar, you know, coins in Scandinavian graves because the reach of the trading empire was that... So blah, but all which is to say, you have all this history coming to a point, and then this one character is, avenging, her dad's death. And it's also, frankly, like, the brutality of that violence and the ethnic cleansing of that violence gives it a gravity and a seriousness that, made it fun for me. Now, the one that was more tricky, one of the ones... I mean, the arena was tough because we had to figure out the tone of it, and get that right, and also there wasn't,..

27:52Micho Robert RutareThe World War II was tough for a different reason, but you talk about the samurai ninja chapter, and that was interesting for me. I had the most fun writing that story. So, like, the just PDF non-script format. Like, the way that screenwriting works, at least the way I do it, is you write a treatment. You write, you write the story in prose form.

28:14Jawad MirYeah.

28:14Micho Robert RutareAnd then once you have that, then you start doing it in script format with dialogue and action description. So the s… the sword, this, that was the cleanest, in terms of notes. I turned in a draft and he was pretty much like, "Fuck, that's, that's it," you know? "Great job," you know? And now, of course, that wasn't the end of the story. We did more iterations. But I knocked that one out of the park, so to speak, from the beginning relative to Dan. But then what was tough is the dialogue. So I've written all kinds of dialogue in that chapter, many drafts where the father has, you know, talks to them and yells at them, and the sons are arguing. But there was something about when we were making the fight sequence between the two brothers up in that, you know, room, there kept being these moments where it was like, "Okay, pause, insert dialogue here." And I'm like, "How dare you. What are you gonna do? Da." And, like, at a certain point, I don't remember whose idea it was, it certainly wasn't mine, they were like, "What if we just tried it without dialogue?"

29:22Micho Robert RutareYou know? And I was down for that because I wasn't nailing it with the dialogue at that point. And the only trepidation that I did have was that, you know, there is a trope, you know, of, like, Asian characters not getting dialogue and I…

29:41Micho Robert Rutare... You know. Luckily, we pulled it off, so nobody's upset about that, but that was something I worried about. But other than that, it does work better. It does tell the story better. And in a way, it, the framework that I built about these two brothers struggling in a battle of succession, it worked so well that I was, like, working against it by trying to refine it further in the form of new dialogue, you know?

30:06Jawad MirYeah.

30:07Micho Robert RutareAnd so that was a tougher one to write, on, in the script form, you know? And you never know. You never know what's, when you're going to... Like, you never know if the hurdles you run into are stop signs or if they are catapults. I don't know if that makes sense, but…

30:24Jawad MirYeah, no, it does. It does and it's, The dialogue part that you talked about, right? It's like, it's, you know, if somebody's gonna get offended or not, and somebody always will get offended, but I do think that each of those chapters reflect the certain times and certain culture in a proper way. Because, you know, Japanese, if you, watch overall, you know, they're very c… well-cultured people. The, you know, they're not... I hate to say it, but North Americans are more obnoxious than Japanese are. But, you know, and... Sorry?

30:59Micho Robert RutareNo, question.

31:00Jawad MirYeah. So which shows in the World War II, part, right? And then you have the Vikings, which is more kinda like a Shakespearean feel a… a… and all that. So it clearly shows, and I think that's something you guys pulled off, really fabulously. And, you know, what... You said you're a history nerd, but were you... Did you go to Japan? Did you go to, you know, maybe US Navy ships or the military just to get a sense, or even, like, in a sim… To have that feel of it in the whatever part of the world, the, in terms of the Viking, obviously it's not there, but just going in that area or feeling it. Did you do any of that, or was it just pure your history nerd knowledge?

31:48Micho Robert RutareJust research, just reading and watching things that had been done, and yeah. Did not, I did not go to Japan for this. I would've loved to. I would've loved if they... Next movie, maybe they'll pay me to go visit those…... To breathe the air of these places, but yeah.

32:07Jawad MirBut, you know, you did a fabulous job, as well as Dan. Without having to be physically there, you took us all there.

32:14Micho Robert RutareYeah.

32:14Jawad MirAnd that's brilliant. And that's absolutely brilliant, because I felt like I…

32:18Micho Robert RutareAnd the, and the art too, I mean, you know, a lot of the, what Amy Carter brought to it, but also of course Josh and the team at Third Floor, like, they were very specific about exactly what type of structure we were building and what, you know, what the cultural artifacts would be in that setting, and how does the funeral pyre physically look in that tradition that they were practicing it. And so, you know, everybody adds a little bit more authenticity to it.

32:45Jawad MirOf course. Yeah.

32:46Micho Robert RutareAnd part of the authenticity, you know, the feeling of authenticity, part of it is a mirage. I mean, that's what, that's what I love about filmmaking, is that if you can hook people in enough with the characters and the story, they believe the truth of what you're doing, even if it's not…

33:02Jawad Mir100%

33:03Micho Robert Rutare... Objectively real, you know? But yeah.

33:07Jawad MirYeah, no, 100%. I mean, that's why Tarantino is amazing at what he does, because his characters are just so rich and detailed. And, I've seen, I don't know how... So, you know, there's, there's the Alien franchise now, which is kinda getting a reboot in a similar way as, Predator did, with a series coming out, Alien: Earth. Terminator had its own animation series. I spoke to the composers last year. I think it was called Terminator: Zero, which was really well-received and well done too. And now you have, you know, the Predator in the animation realm. Do you see, even if there are plans or no plans, of that world meeting the Alien world in this similar type of animation?

33:53Micho Robert RutareI... Let me put it this way. I could certainly see it, you know? I'm, I can't really talk about, what the plans are

34:04Jawad MirYeah

34:04Micho Robert Rutare... 'cause the ones that I am privy to, I'm not supposed to talk about, and then the ones I'm not privy to, I don't know what to talk about. So there's only, I, you know, there's only so much I can say about the future, but, you know, it is all being considered and being cooked.

34:20Jawad MirThat's good. And, you know, the way, the way this film ended, obviously it's an open ending, again, not revealing anything, and then after the post-credits there's a small element there too, which was really cool to see. Aside from whether... A… and I'm, I know there is already something being in the works, especially after the success of this film. Whether you know it or not, would you like to continue working on, in this world, and also maybe possibly explore the Alien world?

34:51Micho Robert RutareI would. I would. I'll say that.

34:54Jawad MirYeah.

34:55Micho Robert RutareI definitely would, yeah.

34:57Jawad MirGreat. Got it. What's,.. Anything else that you're working on now that you're able to discuss, or a personal project that you wanna get off the ground?

35:07Micho Robert RutareYeah, thanks for asking. That's a good question. What, the thing I'm working on that's a little bit further along the tracks, we haven't sold it yet, but I'm writing, I have written the, a biopic about Michael Flatley, who is the Lord of the Dance, who created Riverdance

35:26Jawad MirOh, right, of course.

35:28Micho Robert RutareYeah. So that one is exciting, because even though it seems like it's a completely different genre, there's a lot of,.. And it is a completely different genre, but the same approach and the same spirit imbues those. So if you like the fight sequences of Killer Versus Killers, wait till you see the dance sequences of Dance Lord. And I know that sounds cheeky, but, like, I genuinely feel that way, because the same attitude and approach informs both. So I'm excited. I hope we can sell that quickly now that we've had this other success, and, get that onto the big screen, and we are gonna hopefully get that onto the big screen. Further down the line, I have, I have a spec that I'm really passionate about, and it is more in line with the historical epic action. It's called The Battle of Christiana, and it's basically the most important story in American history that most people don't know about. And this is the story of an escaped slave, William Parker… Who, in defiance of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1851, forms a local militia of escaped and freed Black people, and they violently stop some kidnappings, and they kill a slave owner.

36:49Micho Robert RutareI'm giving away the whole plot, but…

36:51Jawad MirThat's fine, man. That sounds very interesting. I'm already hooked.

36:53Micho Robert RutareYeah, so it, they kill, they kill this slave owner, and it starts this trial, and this is not a courtroom movie, but there is a courtroom case at the end of it where, basically a northern all-white jury acquits these people who were involved in this riot of the charge of treason. Because the southerners were saying, "Hey, like, you can't just disobey the fugitive slave law. You have to return a property. And if you're gonna fight us when we come to take our property, well, then we're gonna have to secede from the Union." And so this is really the inflection point, that started the Civil War. So what is this movie? It's the Black Braveheart, and it's a true story, and, we haven't seen it before, and people don't know about it. So I would love to get that made. That's an uphill climb, 'cause it's gonna be a bigger budget. I mean, there's probably ways to do it more cheaply, but it's a good old-fashioned historical epic, with a lot of gnarly violence as people have come to love in Killer of Killers, and, deep resonant themes and human characters.

37:56Micho Robert RutareAnd so if you're listening, let's have a meeting. Let's make this movie. We can do it. But yeah.

38:02Jawad MirNo, that's amazing, man. I'm, I'm, fascinated by both. Riverdance is something I grew up with. I remember I used to watch it.

38:08Micho Robert RutareCool.

38:09Jawad MirI think it used to come on Sundays here in Canada. And that seems very fascinating, so looking forward to that. And then obviously, the Black Braveheart, obviously that's not the title, but just to kind of…

38:21Micho Robert RutareThe Battle of Christina, which you could change, but the…

38:23Jawad MirYeah

38:24Micho Robert Rutare... We call it The Battle of Christina.

38:25Jawad MirIt sounds very interesting, too, because it didn't remind me of Braveheart, even though that's true. It reminded me of this film which I highly recommend that you watch. It's called Bandit Queen.

38:34Micho Robert RutareOoh, okay.

38:35Jawad MirIt ca… it ca… it came out in the late '90s. It's based on a true story. It was made in, it was made in India in a generation... Do you know who Shekhar Kapur is?

38:45Micho Robert RutareI don't.

38:46Jawad MirHe directed, Elizabeth with, Cate Blanchett.

38:49Micho Robert RutareOh, yeah. Yeah.

38:51Jawad MirYeah, so before he came, made that, I mean, he's made few really well-made films in India, but the one that really caused controversy was this, because based on a true story of a w… woman called Phoolan Devi, which Devi means, like, God. And she was raped and, you know, family was tortured and everything, and she turns into this, like, a leader of rebellion and, you know, basically trying to save people. It's a, it's a great story, and it's a, it's a great film. It's not in the court, but when you talked about violence, it's, it's very brutal. It's very explicit. It, that kind of connected with that story. So just putting that out there if you…

39:33Micho Robert RutareYeah

39:33Jawad Mir... Feel like watching so… something like that. It's, highly recommendable. No, that's awesome, man. I'm, I'm really stoked about Alien Earth, which I know you have nothing to do with, at least for, to my knowledge. But I'm also stoked about the way this film ended. And it just left me with wanting more, which is a feeling that I like to invoke in my f… in my films, and I like to watch. A lot of people don't like open-ended films, the way they end, but this I genuinely loved. And thank you so much. Everything, even I downloaded the soundtrack because I've, I've grown up listening to Alan Silvestri's soundtrack from the original film. It's never been released, but I somehow got the bootleg version of it 25 years ago, and I still have it. So from listening…

40:14Micho Robert RutareAnd yeah, that's what's great about this score. It just, it strikes such a good balance of, you know, so many…

40:18Jawad MirIt does

40:18Micho Robert Rutare... I've been re-rewatching the first Predator the other day, and it's like so many of the cues are the same. And i… in a good way, you know, in that it's iterative, but it's also keeps that DNA. And I think that's, that's the tricky part about a franchise like this, is that there's a temptation to stray from the core, 'cause you don't wanna be just re…

40:37Jawad MirYeah

40:37Micho Robert Rutare... Hashing the old thing. So it's how do you make it new but the same? And that's…

40:42Jawad MirAnd that, and that did the job perfectly. That, it was really well put out in this series. I mean, another, you talked about similarities. I don't know if you listen to scores. I mean, that's my thing, like, that's all I listen to is movie scores. If you look, if you listen to certain cues in Back to the Future soundtrack and certain cues in Predator, because the same composer, and maybe even Forrest Gump a little bit, you'll find overlap…

41:09Micho Robert RutareLittle touches, yeah

41:11Jawad Mir... Yeah, they g… feel like you're watching one or the other. So it's, I just thought I'd bring it up because I notice these things 'cause I listen to it. But yeah, no, the score for this film is incredible, too, so I'm looking for Bad, looking forward to Badlands. Are you involved in that?

41:25Micho Robert RutareNo. I did, I did give some feedback at a recent screening. So I have seen a cut of Badlands, but I'm not officially involved. They're like, "One thing at a time, bro." but…

41:38Jawad MirYeah

41:38Micho Robert Rutare... But no, I've, I've, I've, yeah. It's, it's gonna continue the mind-blowing, experience of Killers for sure.

41:49Jawad MirAmazing, man. I'm looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah, I'm looking forward to your work, too. Thank you so much for your time

41:57Micho Robert RutareYeah, thank you for having me

41:58Jawad Mir... Anything you wanna add at the end?

42:00Micho Robert RutareWell, just that it was very generous of you when you talked about how obnoxious North Americans are. Well, some North Americans are more obnoxious than others, and they tend to reside south of the 48th parallel. But I hear you. I appreciate it.

42:16Jawad MirI mean, I, you know, it's just one of those things. Yeah, I mean, it, the Japanese culture is totally different, right? And, but I know what you mean, and I wasn't trying to be politically correct. I, you know, it's just one of those things where I do, you know, as storytellers, and it's, like, a curse that I feel, at least I have. It's like when you empathize too much… Sometimes you can overlook something that is right there in front of you, but you're trying to empathize. It's a good thing and a bad thing too, and that's something that I run into sometimes. But it is what it is.

42:50Micho Robert RutareOh, so you're just saying you're just being, you're just being empathetic and generous when you might be ignoring the monster and you're going…

42:59Jawad MirNo, it's not that. It's just, you know, in stories you have to do that, I think, right?

43:03Micho Robert RutareYeah.

43:03Jawad MirYou don't wanna, you don't wanna fall in... Like, if you look at some of the great films, I know we're sidetracking, but if you look at some of the great films like The Godfather, Schindler's List, Munich, I don't know if you've seen that…

43:13Micho Robert RutareI have

43:13Jawad Mir... Another Spielberg movie. You know, wherever there's a strong antagonist, that makes the film very much interesting. I mean, even what you wrote, you know, it's if the antagonists weren't strong, why would anybody care about the protagonists? So it's, it's…

43:27Micho Robert RutareYou have to be, you have to be terrified of the antagonist and…

43:30Jawad MirRight. And then also be able to…

43:32Micho Robert RutareIf you're, if you're…

43:33Jawad MirYeah, also be able to know the antagonist. Like, if you just paint somebody that, you know, they're, somebody is, like, a Muslim terrorist or, a Black guy is, like, a, you know, a gang member, a white guy is a supremacist, like, if you just label those things and you don't show any context behind it, sometimes that, the audience doesn't connect with it from a time... Like, it doesn't remain timeless. That's how I look at it.

43:57Micho Robert RutareRight. I mean, you look at, you talk about, like, American History X, you know, where you are empathizing. I mean, even, like, you know, I don't know if you... This is a random reference, but I don't know if you've seen the movie Little Children. And it's just basically, it gets you to empathize with this child molester. And…

44:19Jawad MirOkay. I've heard about it. I haven't seen it, yeah.

44:21Micho Robert RutareAnd then I'm, I'm gonna spoil... Well, I won't spoil it.

44:24Jawad MirDon't, but don't spoil it. Don't spoil it.

44:25Micho Robert RutareSuffice it, suffice it to say, I'm with you. That's, to me, when you're, when you're dealing in the gray and you have heroes who are capable of committing atrocities, and then you have villains who are capable of being, you know, sympathetic, that's interesting. And that's…

44:42Jawad MirYeah

44:43Micho Robert Rutare... That's good storytelling.

44:44Jawad MirThat's what we do. That's what we do. That's what good, great storytelling is, 100%. Awesome, man. Let's,.. I appreciate your time. I would love to have you on again whenever your next project kicks off, or at least close to being wrapped up. Looking forward to everything that you're working on. I wish you nothing but the best in ahead of your career, and it's the... Even though I know you've been in, at it for a long time, but this is the first step in a long many great steps that you'll have, for sure.

45:11Micho Robert RutareThank you. I appreciate that. It's good to hear. Thank you.