'Mars Needs Moms', Director & Writer, Simon Wells & Wendy Wells

0:07Guest 1Well, good to see you again.

0:09Jawad MirIt's good to see you, too. How are things with you guys? Good?

0:12Guest 2Good.

0:13Guest 1Well, we've just had a very dramatic thing that our younger daughter, who by the way was one of the hatchlings in Mars Needs Mums, just had a... Turned out she never had, wisdom teeth, and then she was having real problems with one of her ears constantly bunging up and e… extreme pain and kind of rushing sounds and stuff. And so she swapped dentists, and they did a 3D scan of her jaw and discovered she actually has a wisdom tooth, one wisdom tooth, that was up actually digging its way into one of the sinuses in her low… in her upper jaw.

0:45Jawad MirOh.

0:46Guest 1And so, she's just been in this morning and had that, carved out. So she has a large…

0:53Guest 2She's, she's lying on the couch watching TV, and she's a bit But she's okay.

0:58Guest 1So yeah, bit of drama, but other than that, we're doing very well at the moment.

1:03Jawad MirWell, that sounds painful. I hope she recovers pretty quickly, but, dramas are all part of life, right? So...

1:09Guest 1Yeah.

1:11Jawad MirWell, I, re… I'm really glad to have you guys here, and, I'll give you a little context about my connection with Mars Needs Mums. N… nothing too big, but I remember one of my kids, now they're 13 and 11, when they saw it maybe about five, six years ago, or, like, when they were really young, like four and five, I didn't un… You know, I watched it, but I didn't understand it as I understood it when I watched it again yesterday.

1:47Guest 1huh.

1:47Jawad MirEspecially being a parent of a teen, like, understand the sense, like, all those little things that, especially in the opening of the film that you guys had, like, that relationship of mom and son and, you know, TV and you can't do this and, "Mom, you're mean," and all that stuff, I completely, like, related to that at a very personal level, and I think every parent does. So that was really, you know, put together and, written really well because it literally felt... Oops. Because it literally felt like I was talking to my kids or my wife was talking to my kids. So that was really well done.

2:23Guest 2Our kids were 11 and nine.

2:26Guest 1Yeah, I think must have been. Yeah.

2:27Guest 2Somewhere around there, give or take.

2:27Guest 1So it was…

2:28Guest 2So we were living that

2:29Guest 1... It was very much lifted from our life, yeah.

2:32Jawad MirNo, I could tell. I mean, it was, it seemed very personal and, so, you know, bravo on that. And, I just wanna get started in terms of how did you guys get onto this project? I know there's a book based on it. Just kind of start me with the evolution. Wendy can start or Simon, or you guys can interject whichever way you want.

2:52Guest 1Well, actually, I was, I was the connection into this because, actually I used to be with, the agency Endeavor, and because I hadn't done anything for many years, they were getting bored of having me on the books, and so they dumped me.

3:07Jawad MirYeah.

3:07Guest 1And, I then, was sort of, looking around to try and get a new agent and, landed with, APA and David Saunders. And David just basically said, "Okay, you know, I'm gonna contact everybody who's ever met or worked with Simon and see if I can, you know, land him a gig." And so one of the people he d… phoned up was, Steve Starkey, who's longtime partner with Bob Zemeckis and Jack Rapke in ImageMovers.

3:38Jawad MirRight.

3:38Guest 1And, Steve hadn't taken a call 'cause he'd been busy, but it had been put onto the bottom of his list of, you know, people to call back. You know, everyone carries around a card that has things I need to do today. And, so, at the time, Bob, and the gang were, they were setting up ImageMovers Digital to do mocap movies primarily for Bob, but then they also realized, wait a minute, we need to have, we need to have a movie to go in between each of Bob's movies, to keep the whole crew going.

4:14Jawad MirSure.

4:15Guest 1And so they planned to sing with Mars Needs Mums, and they got the script in and really hadn't liked it at all. Bob had really been hap… unhappy about it. And so they were having kind of a crisis meeting because they're just about to roll into production on Mar… on…

4:31Guest 2Christmas Carol

4:31Guest 1... Christmas Carol, and they've gotta have something that's gonna be ready in a year's time to take on the crew. And so Bob says, "We're just gonna have to get, like, we need a, we need a writer-director, someone who's gonna come in, write the thing, and carry it through. So I don't know, anyone got any good ideas?" And they're all kind of like, you know, looking at their shoes and thinking, "What the hell we..." And Steve looks down at his list and goes, "What about Simon?" 'Cause I'd worked with Bob on Back to The Future…

5:03Jawad MirRight

5:03Guest 1... And also storyboarded a bunch of stuff on, Polar Express.

5:07Jawad MirPolar Express.

5:08Guest 1And actually at the time Bob had said, "Simon, this is the best. You've gotta make one of these movies. This motion capture's just so much fun." And so, you know, so Steve looks at his list and he goes, "What about Simon?" And Bob goes, "That's it. Get Simon. Right. Solved." And so I had a meeting with Jack Rapke, and, I said, "Well, I, yeah, I, if I can get to write it, yeah, I'd be like… I'd like to do it." we then went through a horrendous period…... Of coming up with basically a story outline…

5:42Guest 2Yeah

5:42Guest 1... And going it, pitching it to Bob, and Bob…

5:46Guest 2Yeah

5:46Guest 1... Just hating it.

5:48Guest 2Hating it. Yeah. And we'd have to drive up to

5:52Guest 1Carpinteria

5:52Guest 2... Carpinteria to do it.

5:53Guest 1That's near Santa Barbara.

5:54Guest 2So it's like an hour drive up there where you're just like, "Oh my God, is it any good? Is it any good?" And then you drive back and you're like, "Oh God, it was rubbish."

6:03Guest 1And we went through about three or four of those.

6:06Guest 2Yeah.

6:06Guest 1And e… eventually Bob said, "Look…" Just pitch me like I'm some actor that you've met in an elevator and you really want them to do the movie, but you've got about three floors of elevator ride to pitch the movie. So really, I just want, like, you know, eight salient points.

6:24Guest 2Yeah.

6:25Guest 1And that's it.

6:26Guest 2And we also, we pulled a bunch of photographs and pictures off the internet as well so that we could make, like, a look book of what we thought it w… should look like. So we just went in with a bunch of boards and, you know, like five points and, "This is what we're gonna do." And he went, "Yeah, do that."

6:42Guest 1And suddenly it was like, "Oh, okay."

6:43Guest 2Okay.

6:44Guest 1All right. So we just started writing. That was in, like 2007, I think.

6:49Guest 2I guess so, yeah.

6:49Guest 1End of 2007.

6:51Guest 2Yeah.

6:51Guest 1Yeah.

6:52Guest 2Yeah.

6:53Jawad MirOkay. And when you guys started writing, and, you know, see that's a thing that, it's, it's different when two people are working, like, as directors or writers, but especially as a couple, right? You know, there's obvious… it always has its benefits obviously, but it also could have its, you know, drawbacks. How did that... Drawbacks not in the sense of, like, writing, but more so, you know, you're basically right there, right next to each other as… all the time and working together. And how was that like? Wendy, if you wanna answer that, like, in terms of writing the script and since it was your first time too, and working with Simon, if so.

7:31Guest 2We had, we'd written a bunch of stuff, before.

7:33Guest 1Oh, we'd written…

7:33Jawad MirOh, you had

7:34Guest 1... A couple of scripts. Yeah.

7:35Guest 2Yes, yeah.

7:35Guest 1'Cause, on the end of Time Machine, I realized…

7:38Guest 2Yeah

7:38Guest 1... I didn't know what was wrong with the story or how to fix it. And so realized I need to sit down and start writing stuff. And so…

7:45Guest 2Yeah, so we'd been writing

7:45Guest 1... We just, from about 2002, 2003, we'd been writing stuff. A lot of very bad scripts, it has to be said.

7:53Guest 2Well, they never got picked up, so I guess they were bad.

7:55Guest 1Yeah.

7:56Guest 2I liked a few of them.

7:56Jawad MirNot necessarily, but, you know, let's go back then when you guys started working together, like that evolution in the beginning of working together. Obviously, you know, be… having kids too at the same time, but working together and writing together. What was that like, Wendy?

8:12Guest 2I think actually working together, because we've been married so long, we kind of worked out how to criticize each other without actually doing damage or causing too much pain. So we were able…

8:26Jawad MirYeah, speak for yourself.

8:26Guest 2Yeah, shut up. So we were able to, "Yes, and," rather than, "No, that's not very good." So you know, that there is, there's a way of building on an idea w… that is... What? You giggling?

8:41Guest 1Constructive.

8:42Guest 2You...

8:42Guest 1I just mean it's sentences that start with, "Or..."

8:46Guest 2Or. Yes, but. Yeah, so…

8:51Jawad MirRight

8:51Guest 2... There are ways to communicate that we've already worked out, the sort of pathways that we've already got laid in.

8:58Guest 1We kind of joked we've been married for so long we'd run out of things to argue about, so we…

9:01Guest 2So we had to start writing

9:02Guest 1... Yeah.

9:03Guest 2Yeah.

9:04Jawad MirThat's a good thing. That's, that's really a good thing because it does... I think it does take, used to working together, you know, as well, just because it's a completely different dynamic and some people it works really well, and for some people it doesn't. Well, what, whatever, for whatever reason that is. But Wendy, when you started writing with Simon, if you can remember, you know, any kind of a story, of a scene that you guys were developing or a dialogue and how you guys kind of played with that while working with each other and c… It doesn't have to be from, Moms… Mars Needs Moms or anything else that you worked. Where you incorporated your own personal element in it and had a discussion with Simon back and forth and worked about it?

9:56Guest 2As, I tend to overwrite, so I'll… ... I'll write all sorts of details and, you know, what they were thinking and all this kind of thing, and then I hand it over to him and I think, "This is really good. This is great. I'm really proud of this." And I hand it…

10:07Guest 1She's written like four pages of type notes

10:08Guest 2... And I hand it over to him and he goes, "This is, this is good, but, we can get rid of this bit and this bit and this bit." And he chunks it down until it's, like, half a page. I'm like, "Wow, I spent days on that, and it's now half a page." But it was so much better 'cause…

10:22Guest 1It was very concise and nice though, wasn't it?

10:24Guest 2Yeah. And then there was one time, we were driving. We'd been up and had a meeting with Bob on Mars, and this whole thing about the helmet 'cause Gribble had to have a helmet that he could put on his mom when he rescued her, and he's coming out of the spaceship, and Bob's like, "I don't know how you're gonna solve this, but, you know…

10:44Guest 1And it was, it was specifically about, we got Milo and his mom out there in the middle of the, of the wilderness…

10:53Guest 2That's right

10:53Guest 1... And there's only one helmet.

10:54Guest 2Yes, I knew there had to be a second helmet.

10:54Guest 1And Mom gives the helmet to Milo. Everybody else is trapped inside the control thing. And…

11:01Guest 2I knew we had to plant a helmet

11:02Guest 1... And so it's like we're one helmet down, and somewhere…... We've gotta find another helmet from.

11:07Guest 2And we're in the meeting and this answer just pops into my head, and I'm like, "I'm not gonna say that," because I haven't had time to think it through, and Simon and Bob are just gonna go, "No, that's rubbish. Shut up." And so…... I say it if I know. Well, Bob would've.

11:24Guest 1Yeah.

11:26Guest 2But, so I sit on it, and then we're driving home, and I'm, I was thinking, "I'm gonna pitch it to Simon while we're driving." so I pitch it, and he goes, "Yeah."

11:36Guest 1"Yeah, that works."

11:36Guest 2"That works." "Why didn't you say that in the meeting?" I said.

11:39Guest 1You'd have looked so smart.

11:43Jawad MirIs it, is it,.. Because I mean, Simon has worked with Bob before and, you know, he is... And for you, was it more of, like, a, not necessarily intimidating, but was it just something that you were not used to, working with Bob?

11:57Guest 2It was totally, I was so not used to it. Yeah, I mean, you know, I was little old me, and all of a sudden I'm in meetings with Bob Zemeckis, and I grew up watching his movies.

12:07Jawad MirYeah.

12:07Guest 2You know, I was trying hard not to geek out. And so yeah, I think I was a little bit starstruck and you know, how can my silly ideas work or be any good? But apparently…

12:21Guest 1Yeah. No, I mean…

12:22Guest 2It worked

12:22Guest 1... Bob is actually…

12:24Guest 2Bob is actually…

12:25Guest 1Bob is a very good…

12:25Guest 2Yeah

12:25Guest 1... Development executive actually.

12:27Guest 2Yeah.

12:27Guest 1He's, he's very good at reading something. He's, he's taught screenwriting, and so on, so, you know, he can look at a thing and go, "Okay, you've got this." I mean, there was one time, early on in the story, he said, "Okay, I see why, I see why parents are gonna wanna watch this movie, and I see why little boys are gonna wanna watch this movie. Why are girls gonna wanna watch this movie? You need…

12:49Guest 1... Some sort of aspirational teenage kind of rebellious female character in this as well. I don't know how you guys are gonna do that."

12:58Guest 2Yeah. Off you go. Fix it.

13:01Guest 1So he was very good at like not producing the answer. He…

13:04Guest 2Yeah

13:04Guest 1... He'd specify the problem and be very good…

13:07Jawad MirYeah

13:07Guest 1... And clear at that. And then I mean, one of the things that's awful is when you work with, executives who then try and provide the answer.

13:15Guest 2Yeah.

13:16Guest 1And I remember a great, a great quote about

13:21Guest 2Jeff

13:21Guest 1... Jeffrey Katzenberg, yeah, which is, you know, he's a wonderful person to bring into the editing room to tell you what's wrong with your movie. Just get him the hell out of the editing room before he tells you what to do about it. And…

13:34Jawad MirYeah

13:34Guest 1... And Bob was very good at not doing that. I mean, he'd, he'd throw out a suggestion.

13:38Guest 2Yeah.

13:38Guest 1I remember the whole thing with the third act.

13:41Guest 2Yes.

13:42Guest 1... 'cause he ha… it, you know, I'd done a whole bunch of third act constructions for DreamWorks doing DreamWorks animated movies, storyboarding, where you're…

13:51Jawad MirYeah

13:51Guest 1... Essentially writing the construction of the thing as well. So I thought I knew third acts. You know, I can do this. And we come to our third act, and we put it together and Bob says, "You know, this is just kind of arbitrary."

14:04Guest 2Oh, we…

14:05Guest 1And we went…

14:05Guest 2We love…

14:05Guest 1We went…

14:06Guest 2... Sleepover that word for months.

14:08Guest 1What? What does that mean?

14:09Jawad MirArbitrary?

14:10Guest 1And he said, "You know, you're just kinda like you're rolling down a road here until you just tell me it's time to turn off. I don't know where I'm supposed to be getting to. I don't know when I'm supposed to be there. You know, you gotta give me…

14:22Jawad MirYeah

14:22Guest 1... Gotta give me the structure of this thing." And it's like, oh…

14:24Guest 2Ticking clock

14:25Guest 1... Goddammit, ticking clock and… ... You know, and geography and all those kind of things. All right, yeah. But, yeah, it was, so he'd, he'd kind of thrown out some ideas, and we'd gone and we'd noted it all down and gone away. And then we'd had a c… a couple of days of like this…

14:42Guest 2We tried hard to build his ideas into what we'd got…

14:44Guest 1This doesn't work

14:44Guest 2... And it's ah, no.

14:45Guest 1This doesn't work. Okay.

14:46Guest 2Oh, no, Bob's ideas don't work. What are we gonna do?

14:48Guest 1And so we kind of laid out our reasons why it didn't work, and then we also kind of laid out another board of what we thought could work. And we, you know, we're gonna have a lunchtime meeting with him 'cause by now he's actually shooting Christmas Carol.

15:00Jawad MirYeah.

15:00Guest 1But we get a lunchtime meeting with him, and we come in and say, "So, the thing we talked about last time, it kinda..." And he goes, "Oh, I hope you've got, come up with something better than that shit." I was like, "Oh, yeah."

15:15Guest 2Okay.

15:15Guest 1"Okay, yes, we have this board here."

15:18Guest 2Yeah.

15:19Jawad MirIt's interesting... Sorry, go on.

15:22Guest 1It, he'd just, you know, it'd just been a thing he'd come up with off the top of his head, so, yeah, he was, he was realistic about how, you know, "You guys are the writers. You know where all the levers…

15:32Jawad MirYeah

15:32Guest 1... And, you know, buttons are in this script. I don't, so it's better if I just tell you what you need to achieve, and you figure out how to do it."

15:42Jawad MirI think it's, it's, it's that syndrome of, that him being a filmmaker, and I, you know, I was talking to, William Dear, who directed Harry and the Hendersons. I don't know if you've seen that from the '80s.

15:54Jawad MirAnd, Spielberg came into the editing room and, you know, he gave him some suggestions, and so he's like, "You want me to do this?" So he's like, "Well, it's your film. You do it. You do whatever you want to. I'm just here to tell you what to do, what I think, but you make that decision." And I think that comes with that, part of being a filmmaker, and executives who are not filmmakers, they don't understand, not all of them, but most of them don't understand necessarily how painful it can get when somebody's on your head all the time and telling you what to do, what not to do, and it becomes micromanagement, right? So.

16:28Guest 2Yeah.

16:29Jawad MirOkay.

16:29Guest 1And you have to spend a lot of time trying to educate people about story and why that isn't gonna work.

16:37Jawad MirYeah.

16:38Guest 1You know, i… i… it's, yeah, it's a big waste of time and effort. Yeah.

16:42Jawad MirYeah. So now that you have, you know, went through writing a script together, were you guys simultaneously, starting pre-production in terms of like casting or looking at, you know, obviously motion capture, motion capture technology, which is something completely new. It still is relatively new, but at the time it was very new. Was that simultaneously? If so, how'd you guys go through that together, or was it afterwards?

17:14Guest 1Oh, yeah, we set up offices actually at, 'cause they had a motion capture stage that they'd built specially for Christmas Carol, but for the ongoing ImageMovers Digital films. And actually it's in the same area. Literally the next door, building was where Spielberg was shooting Tin.

17:32Guest 2Tin. And we were just across the road from where…

17:34Jawad MirRight

17:35Guest 1Shooting Avatar

17:35Guest 2... They were shooting Avatar, yeah.

17:36Guest 1And a lot of the same crew people as well that we had a lot of the Avatar crew on our show, so, who were the same crew who, worked on Christmas Carol. So a very incestuous world.

17:49Guest 2Yeah.

17:49Guest 1But yeah, so we had our offices set up there and every time we'd take a break from writing, you know, we'd soldier away for an hour or two, and then we'd go and hang out on set and watch what was going on. So we were kind of educating ourselves about how motion capture worked, how the kind of rhythm of the day worked, and getting to know a whole bunch of the people who, you know, we would be inheriting… because…

18:12Guest 2And also, Scott and Victoria set up, they're, Scott Boland and Victoria Burrows, so they did casting, and they set up offices there as well

18:20Guest 1Oh, they had offices there as well, so…

18:22Guest 2So we could just walk down to them, so yeah, it was great. Everybody was on the same campus.

18:26Guest 1Yeah, and they'd show us videos of people and…

18:29Guest 2Yeah

18:29Guest 1... And actually it had been, Seth was, I can't remember why, but Seth came around, oh, I think he was pitching a show to the guy who was the head of development, for ImageMovers at the time, who…

18:42Guest 2Oh

18:43Guest 1... Went on to…

18:44Guest 2Before Jackie, yes

18:44Guest 1... Before Jackie, but went on to run, Hasbro, and I can't remember what his name is, sorry. But he, so Seth had come in… ... To pitch an idea to him as, like, a film or TV show. And so we kind of met Seth and just were hanging out, chatting to him, and then, we kind of looked at each other and went, "You know what? He's kinda exactly the kind of personality…

19:07Guest 2Yes

19:07Guest 1... We want Milo to have." And so we said…

19:09Jawad MirYeah

19:09Guest 1... "You know, would you, would you consider playing, like, a nine-year-old boy?" And he was really into the idea.

19:17Guest 2Yes.

19:17Guest 1He thought that's, because I think from an acting point of view, getting to play someone who doesn't necessarily look like you do… ... And yet you also get to embody the physicality of that is really exciting.

19:30Guest 2It was great, 'cause he, 'cause he was mo-cap, and he knew that his actual image wasn't gonna be on camera, he turned up for the first day of shooting, and he'd got his head shaved and a bright blue Mohawk.

19:42Guest 1And he said, "When am I ever gonna get to do this at any other time in my professional career? I've got, like, a three-month period…... When I can get away with having this hair."

19:53Jawad MirThat's rad.

19:53Guest 1It was rather fantastic, actually.

19:54Guest 2It was. Everybody went, " " "It's okay. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter."

19:59Jawad MirThat's so cool. Simon, it's, I was just thinking about this earlier today, that, you know, you've directed three films, right? One co-directed and the other two, Time Machine and Mars Needs Moms. And all three of them are very different, not in terms of just story, but in terms of technology that you used, right? One is…

20:18Guest 1I've actually directed five.

20:20Guest 2You did five?

20:21Jawad MirFive, okay.

20:21Guest 1No.

20:22Jawad MirOh, you also directed, We're Back. Yeah.

20:24Guest 1Six films.

20:24Jawad MirWe're Back.

20:24Guest 1Yeah, but there's, there's

20:26Guest 2Five-all

20:26Guest 1... Five-all, then We're Back…

20:28Guest 2We're Back, yes

20:28Guest 1... Which we might not talk about.

20:29Guest 2Yeah.

20:30Guest 1Also then, Time Machine and…

20:34Jawad MirYes

20:34Guest 2... Mars.

20:34Jawad MirMars.

20:35Guest 2And Prince of Egypt.

20:35Guest 1And Prince of Egypt. Yeah, so that's six.

20:37Jawad MirGreat. So le… Pr… let's talk about Pr… Five-all and We're Back and Prince of Egypt were, well, let's say you have Five-all and you have We're Back: A Dinosaur's Story. They're very traditional animation, so that's one style.

20:47Guest 1As was Balto. Yeah.

20:49Jawad MirRight.

20:49Guest 1There was a little bit of computer work in Balto, but not much.

20:52Jawad MirBalto. And then Prince of Egypt was a mix of 2D and, you know, like, groundbreaking technology that you guys used. Then Time Machine was a live action special effects film. Then you have Mars Needs Mom, which is motion capture. So it's, like, completely, you know, different styles of films that you have directed. How is that trans… do you feel ever that transition, especially on Mars Needs Mom, because, like, completely different, did you feel intimidated by that you were working on completely new technology, or was it, because you're not really, I mean, you were kind of used to it with the animation, but it was still a little bit different. You're still in this warehouse with dots on people's faces and they're…... You know, bodies running around.

21:37Guest 1I ac… I have to say, the mo-cap thing, was a, was a joyous experience. It's funny, I found live action was very stressful because you're always trying to make your day. You're trying to, you're trying to work out how to cover, you know, you've got a couple of pages you've gotta shoot today. How am I gonna break that down and get that in the number of setups I can actually physically, you know, get done in the day? And so…

22:05Jawad MirYeah

22:05Guest 1... You're constantly kinda recalibrating, recalculating, trying to figure it out, and that can really get in the way of y… you know, things like getting involved in the actor's performance. And it can, it can really get in the way of spontaneity. The thing that's amazing about mo-cap is because you are capturing the entire three-dimensional scene, once you've got a take, you've got that take from every angle you could possibly want.

22:33Jawad MirYeah.

22:33Guest 1So all the kind, all the filmmaking choices about, you know, camera moves and wide or close shots or lens choices and all those kind of things, and indeed lighting, all of that you push to later. I mean, it's the ultimate kind of we'll fix it in post. It's, you know, it, that becomes an animation process, which I was very comfortable with. I mean, I actually hadn't directed a full 3D animated movie, but I'd been around enough of them to know a lot about how it all worked.

23:03Jawad MirRight.

23:03Guest 1And so felt pretty confident about that stage. But the great thing about mo-cap is now you're on stage with the actors, and all you're doing is getting the performance, and you're working with the actors.

23:15Jawad MirYeah.

23:15Guest 1And it was wonderful because you could do, like, okay, we do the straight version that we wrote, and then it's like, "Guys, if you wanna add, live a bit, have a bit of fun with it, loosen it up, if you've got some other ideas you wanna throw in, go for it." And the actors loved that because it was, it was just such freedom. It was a freedom to play.

23:35Guest 2Yeah.

23:37Jawad MirAnd Wendy, you were on, set, I'm assuming, most of the time, if not all the time, when, Simon was directing.

23:44Guest 2Yeah.

23:45Guest 1She was the set mom.

23:47Jawad MirAnd set mom. Right. So tell, so tell me, you know, what was your daily activity like, and maybe, yeah, before take, after take, during take, like, what were you, more or less, you know, like, as a set mom, if that's what you want to call it…

24:05Guest 1Well, you…

24:05Jawad Mir... What were your daily, activities like?

24:07Guest 2I, yeah, I did. I kind of fielded a lot of people. So, you know, if people wanted to come and talk to Simon, they would b…... Talk to me because he's busy talking to the actors or sorting out some…

24:17Guest 1Right

24:17Guest 2... Problem. And so they'd, they'd tell me what they needed, and then I could, you know, "Okay, you need to go and see this person." Sh… send him off in the right direction.

24:25Guest 1Or, "Is this a good time to talk to Simon or not?"

24:28Guest 2Yes, there was a lot of that. Yes, actually the director is very much a sort of, you know, he is the holy man on set. And quite often…

24:38Guest 1Yeah

24:38Guest 2... Y… the director will have an assistant, which I guess was kind of my position.

24:41Guest 1I, you effectively w… I didn't have a, an assistant…

24:44Guest 2Yeah

24:44Guest 1... Per se on the show.

24:45Guest 2Yeah.

24:45Guest 1So…

24:45Jawad MirI was gonna say, so you were like an AD almost, basically.

24:47Guest 2Yeah. But yeah. And I also, there was one time when I actually got to, I didn't exactly act, but I was invited to go and stand and be on the receiving end of, something that Dan Fogler had to, emote. And

25:06Guest 2... I have to say, I, 'cause I wasn't wearing any dots, so I could stand anywhere on set. So I just…

25:11Jawad MirRight

25:11Guest 2... Went up and stood on the set, and he then delivered, I can't remember what the scene was, but it was very emotional.

25:17Guest 1It was, the stuff down in the

25:20Guest 2That's right, where he breaks down

25:20Guest 1... The sort of abandoned world.

25:22Guest 2Yes.

25:22Guest 1And he breaks down, and we actually kinda hear about his backstory and…

25:25Guest 2Yeah. And I'm not an actor, so I just stood there as someone that he could deliver his lines to.

25:30Jawad MirRight.

25:30Guest 2To give him a line. And wow, standing there and just receiving this onslaught of emotion from this actor. I mean, Dan is spectacular. I've always been in awe of him. But just being in that moment and…

25:45Guest 1He's basically…

25:46Guest 2... Receiving this fire hose

25:46Guest 1... In the mirror firing line.

25:47Guest 2It was like, oh my God. I was, I was practically in tears, and he was the one who was having the emotional breakdown, so you know. I thought it all…

25:55Jawad MirDid that…

25:55Guest 2... Great

25:56Jawad Mir... Did that by any, did that by any chance give you an acting bug?

25:59Guest 2No. Oh, hell no. Well, I know I teach, and teaching is a bit like acting, so.

26:08Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, great. Okay. So, you know, now that you have, you're working on the set and you have the cast and you're going through different scenes, what was the most... And I, and I get it, like, with motion capture, like, you know, you can fix pretty much everything in post in terms of different angles. But what was the most challenging scene that you guys had to go through, or Simon yourself, as a director, and then later as an, you know, we'll call you AD or, mom on the set. Is that, each of you, what are the s… some of the challenges that you had to go through on a scene or in a situation, and how did you guys overcome it?

26:45Guest 1I think the rhythm of it actually became very comfortable and, very relaxed. I think probably the most, the most stressful is literally just doing, like, the first, the first couple of scenes. 'Cause I, okay, I've directed, but this is a whole different kind of experience. And then there's also a certain amount of kind of everyone's looking at you going, "Okay, what kind of director is this guy gonna be?"

27:10Jawad MirYeah.

27:10Guest 1But, I honestly can say there wasn't any part of it that was a kind of, was difficult. It was, it was just a genuine lot of fun to do.

27:20Guest 2We made a lot of friends. It was…

27:22Guest 1Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, lot of people we…

27:23Guest 2... We actually became a real family. And they, I mean, I think a lot of the stunties and the actors, 'cause they come from Avatar and Christmas Carol, they all knew each other anyway, so we were, we were already a part of a crew and a group that we knew.

27:37Guest 1Yeah. A lot of our, 'cause y… you have, like, the principal actors, but then you have a group of kind of, if you like, utility players… ... Who do all the other parts. It's, it's kind of like a repertory theater or something. And

27:51Guest 2Yeah, 'cause Julene is in Avatar.

27:52Guest 1Julene's actually on camera in Avatar.

27:54Guest 2Yeah.

27:55Guest 1But, and I, yeah, I dunno who else from our... But they, certainly most of our, utility players have been on Christmas Carol together.

28:05Guest 2Oh, yeah.

28:05Jawad MirRight.

28:05Guest 1But, you know, it was, it was... I think, you know, the thing that saddens me most about the lack of performance of the film i… is not that I'm hurt from an ego point of view, but actually I would just really love to have got the band back together, you know? It was…

28:21Jawad MirYeah

28:22Guest 1... It was so much fun. I actually, I used to be pretty much the first person on set in the morning and the last person to leave. Part of that was 'cause I had appalling allergies…

28:32Guest 2Yes

28:33Guest 1... At the time. And, when I was on set, the air on set is completely filtered, like ultra HEPA filtered, so, 'cause of all the technology. And so I'd get on set and my allergies would just go. They'd disappear. And I'd walk off…

28:49Jawad MirOh, wow

28:49Guest 1... Set and just, you know, a ton of mucus would suddenly arrive. So I used to get there at, like, 7:30 in the morning and just sit on set the entire time.

28:58Guest 2Just breathing in.

28:59Guest 1And yeah, never went to my trailer or anything like that, yeah.

29:03Jawad MirSo was... I've seen a lot of behind the scene footage of Avatar, of, Monster House, Christmas Carol, all these mo capture films. Tin. Ready Player One. Y… your film as well. And it just seems very, less chaotic. Like, there's not that big of a crew. You're just in this environment where everything is controlled and, you know. Does that, did that, and especially, you know, working on Time Machine, which you said you had a lot of challenges on, like, was that something easier to deal with? I think you kinda answered that, but is it because of the more controlled environment i… it… a little bit more easygoing?

29:43Guest 1Y… well, yes, it is. There's not as many things to be juggling.

29:48Jawad MirYeah.

29:48Guest 1So you're not trying to deal with the camera department and the lighting and all that at the same time. That's all set. All, you know, the 200 motion capture cameras are all just bolted to the gantries, and that's there.

29:59Jawad MirRight

30:00Guest 1... I mean, there was still, there was still quite a lot of energy on set because…

30:05Guest 2Yeah

30:06Guest 1... You know, you change over to a new, like a new setup. Okay, we're now gonna be in, you know, the caverns underneath Mars, and… They got all the pieces built, and they're out in the warehouse, and the grips have just come in with power drills and, you know, vroom…

30:24Guest 2Bolting to the floor

30:25Guest 1... And the w… we had a clock on the wall that had been something…... That actually Bob Z had set up, which was this countdown clock, and, the crew basically had 15 minutes to change out the set to an entirely…

30:39Jawad MirWow

30:39Guest 1... New set. I mean, it's amazing, but because all the sets are pre-built and you're only, you only have the set pieces that the actors physically interact with, so you have as little obstruction of the cameras as possible.

30:52Guest 1But yeah, so there was a lot of energy because the guys would pride themselves in being able to do this and get the whole thing changed out that fast. And then, you know, you get into doing a take, and, y… you know, there isn't all of the camera pre-roll and stuff. It's like, okay, you know, very often I do multiple takes in a row, and we just keep on, you know, keep the stream going.

31:17Jawad MirYeah.

31:18Guest 1There was, the one thing that did kind of slow things down is the dreadful T pose…

31:24Guest 2Oh, yes

31:24Guest 1... That e…

31:26Guest 2Yeah

31:26Guest 1... Every actor has to come in and stand, excuse me…

31:29Guest 2Yeah

31:29Guest 1... In this kind of absolutely bolt upright position like that so that they can get a read on where all their dots are.

31:36Jawad MirRight.

31:36Guest 1And every time the actor leaves and comes back on set, they have to be resampled in. So th… that was, that was kind of a tedious thing. But compared to…

31:49Guest 2It really wasn't that bad. I mean…

31:50Guest 1Yeah, compared to…

31:51Guest 2... It's not like, you know, you're changing locations or anything

31:53Guest 1... Well, you know, and when you're doing live action, every setup, like the makeup and hair people come in, and they're just fussing and like the… ... It's like, "Can we…... Just please go?" You know?

32:03Guest 2Yeah.

32:04Guest 1You know, I know it needs to be done…

32:05Jawad MirYeah

32:05Guest 1... And I know it's frustrating and, but, yeah. So it was, you're free of so much of that stuff. It w…

32:13Jawad MirYeah

32:13Guest 1... It w… you're just getting on. It's kinda like, it's like black box theater. It's like we've got a chair and a table and a sofa, and we're just gonna do the scene, and everything's in your imagination.

32:26Jawad MirDoes it feel like theater, you think, when you're actually…

32:29Guest 1Yeah.

32:29Guest 2Yeah.

32:29Jawad MirDirecting? Yeah.

32:30Guest 1Yeah, because you're, you're not... I mean, there's a certain consciousness of kind of what the camera angles are going to be.

32:38Jawad MirYeah.

32:38Guest 1So I was a, I was aware of how I was gonna shoot it when we come to do the camera work. So you know, you think about, like, which side of the set you're gonna really be looking at, and y… you work so your actors are aware of that and are playing open to that side. But, yeah, it, that's like kind of being on stage. It's like…

33:05Guest 1... Being aware of where your audience is.

33:08Jawad MirSo Wendy, one of the things that I really liked in the film w… there was a line in the beginning, it was, Joanne Cusack delivered it. It was, "Speaking of trash, have you cleaned up your room?" You know, I thought that was such a great line because, you know, every boy's room, and I, and I see it with my son too…

33:27Guest 2It's not just boys. We have, we have two girls, and they're living with us. I mean, even in their, they're in their 20s now, and their rooms are just…

33:33Guest 1Yeah. Bomb sites

33:34Guest 2... Bomb sites. Yeah.

33:35Guest 1Yeah.

33:35Jawad MirOkay. So it's, it's different with us maybe becau… I, yeah. But any case, what I thought that line was really great, and also the scene when, Joanne's character has an argument with her son and the tears in those eyes when she's trying to close the door.

33:56Guest 1Oh, yeah.

33:56Jawad MirThat was really powerful.

33:58Guest 1Oh, the…

33:59Guest 2Yeah

33:59Guest 1... Joan's actual original performance is, was devastating. I mean, she really brought it. That's not a thing that we kind of added in afterwards.

34:08Guest 2Yeah.

34:08Guest 1It was, okay, how are we going to reproduce the thing that Joan did…

34:12Guest 2That she did

34:12Guest 1... Because her heartbreaking performance in that moment was like, ah, I don't know how we're gonna get that to look as…... As convincing when we come to do the digital version of her.

34:25Jawad MirYeah, no, it was, it was great. I absolutely, loved it. And you know, your team, that you had, like your cinematographer, Robert Presley, and then your editor, Wayne, I think it was, Warman?

34:38Guest 1Wayne Warman.

34:39Guest 2I think so.

34:39Guest 1Yeah, I'd worked with him on Time Machine as well.

34:41Jawad MirOkay, so he, you two worked on it w… with him. So just talking to me about, especially, you know, obviously you had a team and everything, but let's focusing on cinematography and post-production, and Wendy, you can chime this i… in this on, too. What was like that and, you know, working with Robert and obviously, you know, like you said, all the cameras are rigged up and everything, so you don't have to worry about those angles. But what was that process like?

35:10Guest 2How f…

35:11Guest 1Yeah.

35:11Guest 2This is a you question.

35:13Guest 1Okay. It's more of a virtual thing. I…

35:15Guest 2Yeah

35:15Guest 1... Robert's, I have a lot of opinions about kind of camera usage and how to, how storytelling through camera works. So, Robert's principal, job was lighting and working with IMD, to kind of figure out how to make the lighting look like real lighting and…

35:38Guest 1... And how to position those lights to do the things we wanted to do. A lot of the camera work, actually it's funny, they built a rig so that Robert could actually, you know, drive a camera with the wheels, which he used quite a lot on Christmas Carol.

35:56Jawad MirYeah.

35:56Guest 1They also had this kind of little handheld block that had motion capture dots on it that you could use. After you'd shot the scene, you could have the scene as it were in virtual space around you, and it had a rig that could define where the camera was and where it was angled.

36:16Jawad MirOh, neat.

36:16Guest 1You could, you could fly this block of wood…

36:19Guest 2That's pretty cool

36:19Guest 1... Around the or through the scene, and you could blow the scene up to any size you wanted. So you could have it small and do a huge crane shot, or you could expand the scene out and get right in and do a little detail thing around an actor's face. But actually even that, I found quite quickly that the best way of working was that Wayne and I would... Wayne would put together kind of the best takes of, based on the sort of video, 'cause we shoot video at the same time.

36:51Guest 1And he'd collect that stuff together, and then they'd make a, kind of a 3D rough throw together… ... Where they, he took the camera that had been shooting the dots on the actors' faces, they'd take that video stream and kind of paste it onto a really blocky 3D model, so we could see kind of where physically the actors were gonna be. It didn't have a lot of the detail and nuance, but it was a layout thing. And I would look at that with Wayne, and I'd just... You know, we'd discuss it…

37:24Guest 1... And I'd just thumbnail the ideas and hand those over to the layout crew, and they would then, on the computer do those camera moves. And it was... That became very much a, an interactive thing between me and Wayne…

37:39Guest 1... Where, 'cause he is, you know, he's, he's actually a very good filmmaker himself, and he knows how it's gonna cut together obviously. And we have very similar sensibilities about kind of what we think shots, you know, shots tell us and how they work. And so we would, we'd kind of discuss it, and it would be a thing of like, "Can I thumbnail this as fast as we're…... We're talking it out?"

38:02Jawad MirYeah.

38:03Guest 1And then, you know, we'd throw... Literally our editing room was next door to the layout rooms. We'd just go out and find out whoever's, you know, whoever's free, give them those shots, and then like an hour or two later they'd bring the shots back and we could see how they cut together. It was, it was just great.

38:21Jawad MirYeah. Wayne and Simon, and sometimes me, were, very in tune with the rhythm of cutting as well. So, you know, Wayne would be playing a scene and he'd go, and he'd be saying like, "Okay, so I'm gonna cut." And Simon and I and Wayne would all go, "Now."

38:37Guest 1Although actually I've gotta say, Wayne has that ability that good editors have…

38:41Jawad MirHe can, yeah, he can just shoot it up

38:41Guest 1... Where I'd look at a thing, and I'd go, "Cut about there." And he'd always cut about 16 frames earlier…... From where I'd said, and he'd be right. And like I know that if I were cutting the thing myself, I'd cut it and it would look loose and baggy, and I'd go in and trim it a little tighter, and it would still look a little loose, and I'd go in and trim it. It would take…

38:59Jawad MirEventually you'd get it after 16 frames

38:59Guest 1... But yeah, after about three or four times I'd get to where Wayne just goes to straight away.

39:04Jawad MirYeah.

39:04Guest 1Bang.

39:05Jawad MirBut that's why he's good. Yeah.

39:06Guest 1That's why he's an editor, yeah.

39:08Jawad MirYeah, no, it's so true what you just said about editing on your own, right? Like, my, the first film that I ever directed was a feature documentary, and because we had a very low budget, I just decided to do editing on my own. It came out okay, but when I... You know, moving on now that I have an editor, it just... Like, there's some things that you s… don't see that an editor sees.

39:29Jawad Mir... You know, especially when you're so self into it as a, as a director, because, you know, you have a complete objective point of view. And it makes a huge lot of difference. Like you said, 16 frames make a big deal in convi… m… convincing an emotion or a mo… any kind of message or whatever you're trying to do. It makes a huge deal. So…

39:50Guest 1But also the overall rhythm of the movie. And…

39:54Jawad MirRight

39:54Guest 1... And that's something which, again, Wayne is tremendously good at. It's funny, one of the reasons why I started working with Wayne is I met a whole bunch of editors on Time Machine, and, I liked Wayne a lot, but also he'd just done, the first Charlie's Angels, the McG Charlie's Angels.

40:14Guest 1And it's interesting, if you watch that movie really critically, you realize, oh, quite a lot of this movie isn't actually terribly good. But it's incredibly well-paced, so it just flies through and you're having a great time, and it rolls along, and I realized, oh, that's just, that's really good understanding of rhythm.

40:39Jawad MirYeah.

40:39Guest 1That's, that's a guy who knows how to pace the movie.

40:43Jawad MirYeah

40:43Guest 1... And he'd also, he'd done, for his sins, he'd done a Mighty Morphin Power Rangers movie. Which, I gotta say was horrible but again, the rhythm of the movie worked so well that it played.

40:59Jawad MirYeah

40:59Guest 1... And so I thought, "Okay, this guy's gonna save my ass a whole lot of times. I want him on my picture."

41:06Jawad MirNo, he, you know, he's done some great stuff. I mean, he's... I don't think he was the primary editor on, Last of Mohicans, but he was one of the, editors that came at the end maybe just to kind of fix the pacing of the film and whatnot. But yeah, no, it's 100% true. And Wendy, you know, as, being on the set, you know you're kind of like s… going through everything like, you know, looking at the cuts, looking at being in the editing room. And w… w… in terms of the cast, even though, you know, Simon as a director is working with the cast, but what kind of interaction you had with the cast to make them feel a little comfortable? Because I'm, I'm kind of like that too, that, you know, if... My wife and I don't really work together that much. I mean, she has her own thing, but sometimes if she would help me on the set, you know, she is the kind of person knows how to, you know, talk to people, w… when I'm not under stre… when I'm under stress or, you know, when I'm really busy. How was your communication with actors, and do you think...

42:09Jawad MirA… and I'm pretty sure it did, but do you feel that it made things a lot more easier for them to feel comfortable in this kind of technology in working on the film? I hope so. We had a lot of running jokes, some of them, a little blue. Stephen Kean, and I would rewrite songs together and just crack each other up to the point where we're literally doubled up weeping with laughter, you know…

42:38Guest 1Yeah

42:38Jawad Mir... Somewhere behind the stage.

42:40Guest 2There was one time we completely rewrote, all of the David Bowie's hits. And I can't remember any of them now, but I just remember…... Literally clutching my sides, I was laughing so hard.

42:51Guest 1Trying not to make noise and…

42:53Guest 2Yeah

42:53Guest 1... Interrupt the tape that's going on the stage. 'Cause, the, because it was such a hassle to kind of go in and out of the stage, 'cause you had to, like, recalibrate each time, the actors tended to come and sit on stage, and they'd, they'd, they'd put a…

43:06Guest 2Put a jacket on, yeah

43:06Guest 1... Like, a cover on to cover over the dots so they wouldn't upset the cameras. But they'd just hang out on stage. The, it was easier than going back, to their trailers and then having to come back again and spend 10 minutes being recalibrated and coming in. So…

43:21Jawad MirRight

43:21Guest 1... Yeah, a lot…

43:22Guest 2There was a lot of just hanging out

43:22Guest 1... Lot of just hanging out and just chatting about stuff.

43:24Guest 2And there was a lovely guy called Ben

43:27Guest 1Ben Guthrie

43:28Guest 2... Ben…

43:29Guest 1Was it?

43:29Guest 2Was it? No, Ben, art department Ben.

43:31Guest 1Yeah? Okay.

43:32Guest 2And he decided that, 'cause he'd come from Avatar, and he'd been on Christmas Carol, and he hadn't had a good time in the art department, and he's like, "I'm not…"

43:40Guest 1Oh, he was the props guy.

43:42Guest 2Props, that's it, yeah.

43:42Guest 1Yeah. No, he actually came to us saying…

43:45Guest 2Yes

43:45Guest 1... "I'm, I'm, I'm…

43:45Guest 2"This is my last show. I'm, I'm out of the movie business."

43:47Guest 1... I'm only doing this because I promised I would do this show."

43:49Guest 2Yeah.

43:50Guest 1"I frankly, I'm done with this whole movie business."

43:51Guest 2"I don't wanna be in the movie business anymore. It's, it's just, I just don't like the environment." And he and I actually became quite good friends, and at the end of…... Mars, he said, "You know what? I'm gonna stick around. There are... You know, this has been such a great show, and the people on this show have been so, such a family and so kind and supportive that I'm, I'm gonna carry on." So…

44:13Guest 1Interesting

44:13Jawad MirI think it was M…

44:14Guest 1Clutching the noise.

44:15Guest 2Yeah.

44:15Guest 1Yeah.

44:16Guest 2Yeah.

44:16Jawad MirHis name was, Benjamin Fetter? Feeder?

44:19Guest 2Cor, I'd have to look it up.

44:21Guest 1Yeah, sorry, I know.

44:22Guest 2I'm sorry, I just know…

44:23Guest 1Yeah

44:23Guest 2... He was Ben.

44:24Jawad MirYeah, I'm just looking at IMDb. It's his costume designer, so I'm assuming that was

44:28Guest 2Oh, he was props

44:29Jawad Mir... Not him.

44:29Guest 1He was props. He was…

44:30Jawad MirProps, okay

44:30Guest 1... Props all, yeah. But yeah, I mean, there was, there was a lot of running jokes. The, I mean, Seth had running jokes with everybody.

44:39Guest 2Oh my God, yes.

44:39Guest 1Seth is incredibly good at…

44:41Guest 2He is

44:41Guest 1... Just being friends with everybody in the show.

44:46Guest 2Yeah.

44:46Guest 1I remember actually saying to him one time, it's like, "Seth, dude, you've, you've been, you've been kind of a big name in this business for quite a long time. Why aren't you an asshole? 'Cause, like, you know..." And he said, "Honestly, I love doing this, and I want to get asked back. And so I just figure the nicer I am to everybody, the more likely they are to ask me to come back and do it again." And I thought, "Oh, you know…

45:11Guest 2That's a life lesson

45:12Guest 1... God bless you." Yeah.

45:13Guest 2Yeah.

45:13Guest 1Absolutely.

45:14Jawad MirThat's such, you know, that's such a simple commonsense thing for people to do, and I don't know what happens to a lot of people. Not just actors, I mean, I think even people behind cameras or in, you know, different crew members. It just kind of sometime gets to people's head. But…

45:29Guest 1Yeah

45:29Jawad Mir... But yeah, I mean, being nice and being kind and being simple play, pays off in the long term, for sure.

45:36Guest 1But y… I mean, do you remember the, I think it was actually the mocap head rig guys built, throwing stars out of Velcro.

45:46Guest 2Oh, no. Yes.

45:46Guest 1Because you're wearing a Velcro suit, 'cause they attached all the dots with Velcro, they actually built these shuriken…

45:53Guest 2Shuriken

45:54Guest 1... Throwing stars that you could throw, and it would stick to the actors' costumes. And

45:59Guest 2There was shuriken fights on set. Oh, my

46:00Guest 1... And there were shuriken fights. And at one point, a whole bunch of Disney executives came round right in the middle of one of these shuriken fights.

46:06Jawad MirOh, wow.

46:08Guest 1"Okay, guys, let's, pack it in now."

46:10Guest 2We need to look like adults. Yes.

46:14Jawad MirAnd…

46:15Guest 2Yeah

46:16Jawad Mir... One thing that I really, enjoyed in the film, guys, is the, if you wanna call... I'm not sure if it's production design or art direction or b… bit of both, just the aesthetics of the environment, right? The s… the spaceships, Gribble's V as… ship, as well as the forest scene and everything. What was, you know, how involved were you in that? Obviously, that came in a form of storyboards, I mean, beforehand, and then obviously in post when you were rendering stuff and all that. So just talk to me through that process.

46:48Guest 1That's, that's, a lot of thanks to Doug Chiang, who was the production designer, who was basically the m… the head cheese, the big creative guy at Image Movers Digital. And he, of course, comes from Star Wars.

47:02Guest 2Star Wars, yeah.

47:04Guest 1So the sci-fi stuff is just so completely in his blood. And, he and a bunch of development artists produced, oh, just a slew of stuff, a whole range of kind of different things, early on while we were still in writing and sort of giving him rough versions of the script. And so we'd go through and just kind of pick the stuff that worked, fit together, fit with kind of what we were thinking. And so it was, it was sort of a process of refining down, but yeah, mostly we had just a wealth of options, and the guys produced just gorgeous artwork. And there were some things you looked at and went, "Well, that's beautiful. It doesn't fit with everything else we're doing." "But, man, it's a beautiful piece of artwork." so yeah, it was, it was essentially their sensibilities, and, w… we just, we just got to cherry-pick it. It was wonderful.

48:00Jawad MirYeah. And I, and I loved, I mean, this came out 11 years ago, but, you know, the facial expressions, the movements was, you know, quite impressive even for its time period. And i… it, especially, Gribble's character. Like, it, to me, he looked as real as a human being. You know…

48:20Guest 1Yeah

48:20Jawad Mir... Just the way he movement forward and…

48:22Guest 1And the difficulty with mocap, and, I don't know, you could probably do it now, but certainly where we were then is, that dreadful thing that people call the uncanny valley, where you get something that looks very real, and then it only requires the slightest little thing to feel A wee tiny bit fake, and suddenly it's, it's kind of weird and off-putting. I mean, e… essentially, you know, zombie movies work on the same principle, that people are bothered by the uncanny valley. This is clearly a human being, but they're acting kinda weird and moving in a weird way, and all our alarm bells go off. It's kind of in the lizard brain, that there's something that reacts to that. And so, I think where we were with the technology would be just occasional moments that would let it down, and i… it's kinda like you pop a balloon. It's

49:19Guest 1... Which is painful and sad to admit, but, I think in some ways we would've been smarter to go more cartoony. You know, in retrospect, I think what they did…

49:33Guest 2Gil Kenan

49:33Guest 1... With Monster House, Gil Kenan did with Monster House, was very smart. He said, "Look, we've..." Particularly as he was working with low budget… ... They weren't gonna have hair simulation and stuff like that, he said, "We're gonna go cartoony because that gets us away from any kind of question about, well, why doesn't the hair look more realistic?"

49:51Guest 1And, early discussions with Bob said, "Well, if you make Earth look real, then we'll believe that Mars is real." And he had a good argument of like, "Make Earth as real as you possibly can, because then we'll believe the Mars environment." But I don't know…

50:10Guest 1... In retrospect, it might've been smarter to go kind of more caricatured, more cartoony. And in point of fact, there is actually a great deal of caricature in the performance. I mean, we did, we did a number of tests where we do like, okay, this is one to one, the movements of the face are literally moving the 3D model…

50:30Guest 1... One to one. And then, you know, going up in increments, and I think we were at about 130, 140%, you know, kind of pushing beyond, you know, a… taking…

50:42Jawad MirRight

50:42Guest 1... Whatever movement and making it that much more. But yeah, there were some parts of it were incredibly successful, and partly because Dan Fogler's performance is such that, he translates incredibly well.

50:58Guest 2Yeah.

50:59Jawad MirYeah.

50:59Guest 2And Elizabeth.

51:00Guest 1And, yeah, Elizabeth was great.

51:02Guest 2Great job.

51:02Guest 1And I think it's also because those characters were more extreme characters. They allowed for more caricature, and that worked better. So yeah, again, i… i… if we could only get the band back together, the What we would do, what we would do better.

51:20Jawad MirSo Wendy, when you guys finished the film, right, I'm assuming you guys did screening, like test screenings and just audience, feedback and s… you know, survey and all that. T… talk to me about that entire process, the amount of feedback you guys got from the executives, from the audience, and the implementation of that or not so implementation of that.

51:44Guest 2Goodness.

51:44Guest 1It was a weird time.

51:45Guest 2It was, it was very strange, yes. There was a lot of political stuff going on at Disney.

51:51Guest 1The leadership of Disney changed while we were making the film.

51:56Jawad MirOkay.

51:56Guest 1And, after we'd finished shooting, but while we were still in post-production, and the, there…

52:07Guest 2Yeah

52:07Guest 1... Was some question about Bob Zemeckis' whole deal with Disney and kind of the terms of it, and the people who came in, w… I mean…

52:18Guest 2And then marketing team completely changed, so.

52:20Guest 1Yeah, that changed over.

52:22Guest 2Yeah.

52:22Guest 1So yeah, it was, it was kind of a messy thing. I mean, we were... I'm, I'm very grateful that we were allowed to finish the film because they could've just said, "Okay, we're gonna axe it and stop it right now."

52:32Guest 2Yeah.

52:33Jawad MirYeah.

52:33Guest 1I don't think that crew understood, I don't think that team of people really understood what the movie was. Dick Cook had, been the one who green-lit it and had really liked the whole thing. They kind of, I think they were expecting something that was gonna be a cutesy little, you know, cartoon, you know, joke fest.

52:59Jawad MirSure.

52:59Guest 1And what they have, is more dramatic and, "Oh my God, the mom's gonna die, and the son is crying his eyes out," and so on. I don't think they really knew what they were dealing with, what they wanted to do with it, and they hadn't got a clue really how they wanted to sell it. And I think in all honesty, there were some interesting political things that were going on…

53:22Guest 2That were well beyond our pay grade

53:23Guest 1... Which were, yes, so far beyond our pay grade…... That I think there wasn't, without naming names, there wasn't a lot of support…

53:32Jawad MirYeah

53:32Guest 1... For the movie, in the higher echelons of the Disney management.

53:38Jawad MirSo again, you don't have to answer this, and I'm not looking for any names or controversies, but when the, you said the marketing team changed, right? So normally for any film, even back then, the marketing team would start to come on board in the very, you know, middle or early stages just to kind of get a plan going and execution, how we're gonna do this, when we're gonna do this. So was that happening with the previous team, or, and it stopped and nothing sort of happened afterwards…

54:06Guest 2Well…

54:06Jawad Mir... Or less happened afterwards?

54:07Guest 1Well, it was, kind of... Go ahead.

54:09Guest 2The new, sort of Disney, people who were in charge of marketing f… were trying out a sort of, a much more, well, how do you say?

54:20Guest 1Boutiquey kind of…

54:20Guest 2Viral…

54:21Guest 1Yeah

54:21Guest 2... Boutiquey, you know, getting…

54:23Jawad MirOn early media and social media

54:25Guest 2... Messing about, so through social media entirely, rather than doing the big advertising campaigns. And, they would, it was something they were trying out

54:33Guest 1And it was a new…

54:34Guest 2We were a guinea pig, I guess

54:35Guest 1... Yeah, it was a new team, and they'd only done like one or two movies at all…

54:39Guest 2I don't think they'd even done movies

54:41Guest 1... Yeah, prior to us. And, I mean, it was interesting that, you know, at that time Pixar were using their own marketing team.

54:49Guest 2Oh, yeah.

54:49Guest 1They refused to use Disney's marketing team.

54:52Guest 2And that marketing team didn't last long, so I just…

54:55Jawad MirWell, it's, it's, it's funny that... So I, when I watch the film, right, like, I even, when I watch something new, or even if I've some… haven't seen something in a while, I had completely forgotten about this film in terms of the story or what the box office was successful or not. So I decided to watch it first, and then I, you know, Googled the after, you know, people reaction. And the box office numbers obviously, now that makes more sense, you know, what you were just telling me. Because for a Disney movie to open like that, or to have that kind of a box office is, like, something unheard of.

55:33Jawad MirYou know?

55:33Guest 1The other problem, was that the, you know, the critic, the critics, a lot of them responded to the whole uncanny valley thing, which they didn't like, and when you get the sites which compile, you know, the critical reviews…

55:51Guest 1... And say, okay, you know, 30% fresh or…

55:54Jawad MirYeah

55:54Guest 1... You know, whatever, they're, they're really just doing kind of a bottom line of i… you know, they're not, they're not, they're not dissecting it in terms of, "This was enjoyable, but I didn't like the look of the thing," or... You know, so you end up with this, just this kind of number score, which doesn't in any way kind of reflect the nature of the movie.

56:17Jawad MirNo.

56:17Guest 1And

56:19Guest 2Yeah, 'cause in the screenings we were getting really good

56:22Guest 1And our…

56:22Guest 2... Responses to the characters and like…

56:23Guest 1Our cinema score was actually…

56:24Guest 2Yeah

56:25Guest 1... Pretty decent.

56:25Guest 2Yeah.

56:26Guest 1In terms of when people had been asked after the movie, "Did you enjoy it?" So we were kinda killed by the, yeah, by the Rotten Tomatoes number without, you know, without any analysis of where that number comes from. And trouble is, you know, you look and go, "Charlotte's Web, I don't know anything about this movie. Oh, Rotten Tomatoes says it's only, like, this."

56:48Guest 1"let's…"

56:49Guest 2Yeah

56:49Guest 1... "let's not bother." And…

56:50Jawad MirBut I, but I also think it also, you know, Disney brand is such a huge brand, even if Rotten Tomatoes reviews were bad, you know, in terms of... I also think what you just mentioned about the marketing team, I think that had a hand in it, too.

57:04Guest 1Well…

57:04Guest 2Yeah

57:04Guest 1... Disney is certainly pretty good at kind of ramming things down people's throats,... And saying, "You do want to see this."

57:11Jawad MirYeah.

57:11Guest 1Which they didn't do. Yeah, I, there's, also, and you know, I throw this out not really as an excuse, but, it was the weekend that the Fukushima disaster happened in…

57:24Guest 2Oh, that's right

57:25Guest 1... In, Japan as well.

57:26Guest 2Oh.

57:26Guest 1And frankly, I didn't wanna go to the cinema that weekend either.

57:30Guest 2Yeah.

57:31Guest 1So yeah, that's a small…

57:34Jawad MirNo

57:34Guest 1... Additional thing.

57:35Jawad MirIt's, it's a combination of things, right? And also, going back to what you said about Rotten Tomatoes, I think Rotten Tomatoes, there was a time, for me at least, when I used to sort of check it out, but now I don't because there have been so many cases where I would like the film, and I'll go to Rotten Tomatoes, and it'll have terrible reviews.

57:53Jawad MirAnd vice versa. Like, I'll be like, "Okay, this was garbage," and I'll go to Rotten Tomatoes and, like, it'll be, like, 80%.

57:59Guest 1It happens.

57:59Jawad MirSo, you know, it's very, it's very…

58:01Guest 1It happens

58:02Jawad Mir... It's, it's every… everybody's taste is different now, right? And it's, it's, and it's, it's not that... Like you said, it's like, you know, oranges and apples, so it's not really fair. And I, and I just wanted to know, I mean, I know as a filmmaker when... Obviously box office is not everything, but it is a reflection of audience not accepting your film…

58:25Jawad Mir... For whatever reason that is. And it bo… it obviously, you know, hurts anybody, you know? Even if it was, Steven Spielberg or Robert Zemeckis. So how did you guys deal with that, like, when the numbers came in and the, and everything? Like, what was that process like for you guys?

58:43Guest 1Yeah.

58:43Guest 2It was pretty horrible.

58:44Guest 1Yeah.

58:45Guest 2Yeah.

58:45Guest 1Grieving, you know?

58:46Guest 2Yeah, it's grieving.

58:47Guest 1I, a good friend of ours, Tim Johnson, who's directed a bunch of movies for DreamWorks…

58:52Jawad MirRight

58:52Guest 1... He put it best. He said, "I love making movies, I just hate releasing them."

58:58Jawad MirYeah.

58:59Guest 2Yeah.

58:59Jawad MirYeah.

58:59Guest 1'Cause it's always horrible. And even if you have the number one movie for the weekend, then it gets knocked off…

59:06Jawad MirYeah

59:06Guest 1... The following weekend.

59:07Jawad MirYeah.

59:07Guest 1And it's like, ""

59:09Guest 2Yeah.

59:09Guest 1You know, your heart breaks all over again. So yeah, it's, it's very painful actually. And, yeah, I completely sympathize with the people who don't read any reviews and just kind of…

59:22Guest 2Oh, yeah

59:23Guest 1... In fact, you know, I think…

59:25Guest 2But there's no escaping it. I mean, even if you say, "Oh, I'm not gonna read the reviews," you still hear about it.

59:29Guest 1You still hear about it and stuff. But yeah, no, I know a number of people who will go away for the weekend when their movie opens.

59:35Jawad MirYes.

59:35Guest 1So they just won't…

59:36Jawad MirYeah

59:36Guest 1... They won't be in town for that weekend.

59:38Guest 2Yeah.

59:38Jawad MirI think, I think Spielberg and Lucas did that when Star Wars and Close Encounters came out, and that's where Raiders idea was conceived.

59:46Guest 2Yeah.

59:47Jawad MirBut yeah, you're right. I mean, you need to stay away from... But at the same time, even, you know, 11 years ago was different. Now it's even worse. Like, you know…... You have everything at your fingertips more than it was even 11 years ago.

1:00:00Guest 1Oh, yeah.

1:00:00Guest 2Yeah.

1:00:00Guest 1No, trying…

1:00:01Guest 2Yeah

1:00:01Guest 1... Trying to do a cinema release of a movie now is incredibly difficult. I don't envy that at all. Because, I mean, I'm aware of it in, you know, in discussions we have. Like, "Shall we go and see this?" It's like, I don't know. Is this a movie that you have to see in the cinema, or is it a movie…

1:00:18Jawad MirYeah

1:00:18Guest 1... That's going to be fine to watch streaming?

1:00:20Guest 2Yeah.

1:00:20Guest 1And the trouble is those kind of... I mean, yeah, there's, there's the big spectacular things like…

1:00:26Guest 2Oh, yeah

1:00:26Guest 1... Dungeons & Dragons or Top Gun. You gotta go and see those in the movie theaters.

1:00:30Jawad MirYeah.

1:00:30Guest 1But then there's a lot of the kind of the smaller dramas and stuff that's gonna work just fine at home, and I hate myself for saying that.

1:00:40Guest 2Yeah.

1:00:40Guest 1But at the same time…

1:00:41Guest 2'Cause we want to be go…

1:00:41Guest 1Yeah

1:00:41Guest 2... We used to, before COVID, we would go every weekend, we'd go and see a movie…

1:00:44Guest 1Yeah

1:00:45Guest 2... At the cinema.

1:00:46Guest 1At least one.

1:00:46Guest 2And now…

1:00:47Guest 1Yeah

1:00:47Guest 2... Yeah, but.

1:00:48Jawad MirBut do you think... Now this is a very general question. Do you think that's because we have more streaming options or tickets are very expensive, or is it just COVID has kicked into our habit of just kinda chilling out and relaxing at home?

1:01:00Guest 1It…

1:01:00Guest 2I think it's…

1:01:01Guest 1Yeah, it's…

1:01:01Guest 2... For me, it's COVID, you know.

1:01:03Guest 1That changed it. Yeah.

1:01:03Guest 2Yeah, that changed it. And now it's, well, I can stay home and...

1:01:06Guest 1But also, the availability. I mean, this is the difficulty of… Particularly if you do a simultaneous release…

1:01:12Guest 2Yes

1:01:12Guest 1... In RN and, streaming

1:01:14Jawad MirYeah.

1:01:14Guest 2Yeah

1:01:14Guest 1It's like, really? Am I really gonna travel down the road and buy tickets and blah?

1:01:19Guest 2Also…

1:01:20Guest 1And…

1:01:20Guest 2... Our local cinema used to be the Arclight.

1:01:23Guest 1Yeah.

1:01:23Guest 2And so that was lovely, but now it's, you know…

1:01:24Guest 1Yeah. Well, it's, the Regal's still decent…

1:01:26Guest 2Regal's still open, yeah

1:01:26Guest 1... But I hear they're gonna close as well, so.

1:01:28Guest 2I do think.

1:01:28Guest 1But, I mean, there was a, what was the recent Disney release where, they released but we all knew it was gonna be coming out in streaming in four weeks time or something? So…

1:01:39Guest 2Was it Strange…

1:01:40Jawad MirStrange World?

1:01:41Guest 1It might have been Strange World.

1:01:42Guest 2Yeah.

1:01:42Jawad MirYeah.

1:01:42Guest 1Which actually, our elder daughter, who was an… the, another of the

1:01:46Guest 2Hatchlings

1:01:47Guest 1... The Mars hatchlings, is now actually a, production assistant and worked on Strange World.

1:01:53Guest 2Yeah.

1:01:53Jawad MirOh, cool.

1:01:54Guest 1But yeah, it's, it's, it's kind, it's funny, she went to college to do, kinda live action filmmaking, and after spending, you know, a bunch of time on sets and having a few kind of working gigs on sets, but also having done an internship, at Stupid Buddy, Studios…

1:02:14Guest 2Yes. Yes. Yeah

1:02:14Guest 1... She just realized, "I like animation studios a whole lot more, and I like the kind of, the rhythm of work and the way you get to know people for a longer period of time." And so she just realized that, yeah…

1:02:26Guest 2You get to craft the film and the story. Yeah

1:02:28Guest 1And you also get a certain amount of, your work/life balance is healthier. When you're on live action films, it, you, that's all you do. You are 16 hours a day on that film, and you work like crazy for a couple of months, and then suddenly there's nothing, and now you're searching for another job and desperately calling around trying to get another gig. And so actually, the continuity of animation's a lot more fun. But anyway, yeah, so she, yeah, she worked on Strange World. But yeah, I think that suffered very much from the fact that you knew it was gonna be available on Disney+ in a month's time. So really, do we wanna go out and see it?

1:03:08Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. And I was actually surprised even after, I think the first, I think the second or third wave of COVID, like films like, I'm specifically talking about Pixar films. What was that m… film, Big Red?

1:03:21Guest 1Oh. Turning Red

1:03:22Guest 2Oh, Turning Red. Yes.

1:03:23Jawad MirTurning Red, Turning Red. And so many other films, they just kind of released them on Disney+. And Turning Red, I mean, it wa… it's based in my hometown, Toronto. Like, all the locations that they showed, like I remember them, like from, you know, 30 years ago. And I was like, "So I wanted to go see that movie in the theater," and they released it on Disney+. But again, it's business too, right? Numbers, if it's, what's gonna work where in terms of money, more ROI where and all that stuff.

1:03:55Guest 1Yeah, I don't know…

1:03:56Jawad MirAnd…

1:03:57Guest 1... Yeah, the whole business side of it. I haven't actually, I haven't directed a film that's gone to streaming. I've, I've been attached to a few that were going to, but not got to the point where, you know, the details of the deal worked out. I, and I think there is a whole different construction of how residuals are derived and that kind of thing.

1:04:16Jawad MirYeah.

1:04:16Guest 1Because…

1:04:17Jawad MirYeah

1:04:18Guest 1... There just isn't, i… it's, it's like back in the day when things used to get released on video and DVD, actually trying to find out what the revenue from those DVDs and video sales was quite hard.

1:04:30Jawad MirOh, wow.

1:04:30Guest 1They did not publish…

1:04:32Jawad MirYeah

1:04:32Guest 1... They kind of, they'd give a table of which one was the best, but they wouldn't actually say how much anything was making.

1:04:38Jawad MirYeah. Well…

1:04:39Guest 1That's, that's even more so with streaming where you have not a clue how much... I mean…

1:04:44Guest 2Yeah

1:04:44Guest 1... You just have to take their word for it.

1:04:47Jawad MirBut also, I mean, I, Matt Damon, I was watching his interview. He said that back in the day, if there was a bad, if there was a small b… movie that was not gonna generate a lot of box office and executives knew that, they would still go ahead with it because they knew there would be income through VHS and DVD. You know…

1:05:03Guest 1Yeah

1:05:03Jawad Mir... Rentals, purchases, and all that. But that is sort of completely gone now. So nobody takes those chances of making films like English Patient, you know? Or

1:05:12Guest 1Well, yes and no, because of course there's, there's, I mean, if you, if you start going through the extensive back catalog of the, of the Netflix's of this world, you find an awful lot of films that you look at and go, "That was made in 2019. I didn't even hear about that," or 2021.

1:05:28Guest 1And they're all these kind of lower budget, some of them very good. But

1:05:35Guest 2A lot of them are not

1:05:35Guest 1... You know, things that, yeah, quite a lot of them are not. But so in a way, there is kind of a world there for the lower budget…

1:05:43Guest 2True

1:05:43Guest 1... Film movie.

1:05:43Jawad MirBut I find, I find that maybe it's because of the marketing. Like, you know, back in the day, any small movie that would come out, you know, like Sling Blade, I don't know if you remember that came out in the late '90s.

1:05:54Guest 1Oh. Yeah.

1:05:55Jawad MirBilly Bob Thornton.

1:05:56Guest 2Yeah.

1:05:56Jawad MirLike, you would know about it. You know? People would... Like, I remember knowing about it. It came out in, like, three theaters, and then it came out in, like, 20 theaters, and 100. Now, like, all those small films that you're talking about, you're right. Like, I would find something, go, "There was a movie with this star and that star five years ago? I've never even heard of it." Like, you just don't know about it the way you used to. Maybe because it was in newspapers or what it was. But yeah, it's, it's just totally different now.

1:06:20Guest 1Also because function, it may be a function of there's also more stuff getting made. I mean…

1:06:24Jawad MirThat too. That too.

1:06:25Guest 1So other. Yeah.

1:06:27Jawad MirGo on.

1:06:28Guest 1Anyway. No, go ahead.

1:06:28Jawad MirWhat, well, what are your future projects like together, whether it is or, you know, anything that you're working on that you're able to talk about?

1:06:38Guest 2I think my role, I've, I've stepped into teaching now, so I'm sort of out of the writing…

1:06:43Jawad MirWhat do you teach?

1:06:45Guest 2I actually teach costume and fashion design.

1:06:48Jawad MirAh, nice.

1:06:49Guest 2Which is my other passion. I used to…

1:06:51Guest 1Yeah. Wendy's had a number of careers, and…

1:06:53Guest 2Yeah

1:06:53Guest 1... One of them was actually making costumes.

1:06:55Guest 2Yeah

1:06:55Guest 1... She made costumes for West End shows for a while when we were in London.

1:06:58Guest 2Before we, yeah, obviously before we came out here. So my role as writing partner has now been, taken over by our younger daughter. So Simon and Tegan are now writing together.

1:07:09Guest 1We're actually on, like, our third script together now.

1:07:11Guest 2Yeah.

1:07:12Guest 1We, it started off as a thing where… Because Tegan's trying to get into animation as well. She's, she's a story artist, and

1:07:19Jawad MirRight

1:07:19Guest 1... A… and while she was at college, she'd done a writing course, and this had, come up, she'd come up with an idea as just a pitch to, you know, to the s… class, but had been such a good idea, and had been so well received in her class that I said to her, "Okay, let's actually, you know, over the summer holiday, let's structure this out, as I can try and impart some of what I know about how to put a film together. We'll card it all out, lay it out on boards, and figure out the story, actually flesh it out fully, and go through that whole experience." And so we did that, and then realized that our main character's the wrong character, and rewrote it, and eventually came up with a script that was quite a decent draft. And then I thought, "Well, okay, the next stage of this is you put it out to a bunch of industry people that you know," you know, people like Brenda Chapman, who I did Prince of Egypt with, who's a superb…

1:08:11Jawad MirYeah

1:08:11Guest 1... Writer, and get their notes, which will be painful, but, you know, this is a thing you've gotta go through. So we did that, got some great and painful notes. Did a rewrite, and several rewrites. And then it was sort of, "Well, now we've got this script. Maybe we ought to actually take this out and pitch it." So I storyboarded the opening sequence and cut it together with music and sound and stuff, so did actually a proper animatic of the first, like, four minutes of the movie. And then we also did a bunch of a… artwork, so that we had a look book, a kind of pitch document, and, pitched it out to a bunch of studios. I mean, it, we knew going in it was not a thing that was likely to get picked up. It was, it was kind of too far out there as an idea. It is basically the Battle of the Alamo, but with an air force of giant winged creatures, essentially giant bats. And it's much more of an action adventure film than an animated movie, but…

1:09:10Jawad MirRight

1:09:10Guest 1... But anyway, on the back of that, Tegan and I have continued to write stuff, and we've got, we have a script that you still haven't read yet.

1:09:18Guest 2I know. I will read it this afternoon.

1:09:21Guest 1And another one that we're, we're working on. So I got a bunch of things that I'm in the process of trying to write. And I'll also kind of get attached to script, scripts from time to time. There was a really terrific one…

1:09:34Guest 2Oh

1:09:34Guest 1... That actually only just fell through about a week ago, two weeks ago, which was actually about the making of the original Charlie Brown Christmas special, Peanuts Christmas special back in 1965. And it was just, it, one of those things where my agent, I think, had sent it to me because, like, "Well, you know about animation. You might like this." And my first reaction was, "Peanuts? Really? What do I, why would I care about this?" And I started reading. It's one of those scripts where you get four pages in, and then you just can't put it down.

1:10:05Jawad MirOh, wow.

1:10:05Guest 1It's superbly written. And I met with the producers, and they were great, and the whole thing, the whole thing was all working incredibly well, and they got financing. In fact, they got financers who said, "You're asking for 10 million, but we think you need 15, so we're gonna give you 15." It was like…

1:10:23Guest 2You have it.

1:10:24Jawad MirThat doesn't happen.

1:10:26Guest 1And fell at the final hurdle, and the family decide that, the Schulz family decided they had something that they, was too similar that they were trying to develop themselves. And, yeah, that's, that's one of the few times when I'd actually got to the point of thinking, "This is gonna happen. It's gonna happen," and then it didn't. I, you know, that's, that's the story of 99% of things in Hollywood. There's all these things…

1:10:49Jawad MirYeah

1:10:49Guest 1... Which, you know, deals that get put together and then don't happen. So yeah, I've, I've been attached to so many things. I don't tend to hold my breath anymore. But this one, this one I was holding my breath.

1:11:01Guest 2Yes.

1:11:01Guest 1Anyway, it may come back. You never know.

1:11:04Guest 2Yeah.

1:11:04Guest 1But

1:11:05Jawad MirJust one last question, and that's for Wendy. Wendy, what's it, Simon was just talking about, like, you know, 99% of the projects that don't get to get made, and then, you know, aside from being a writer, like, you know, as a, as a wife, and then being in the family together, like, how have, ha… have you become sort of used to that kind of thing too? "Well, it will happen when it will happen," or is it still sometimes, it's, is it difficult to deal with?

1:11:30Guest 2Oh, you get used to it, I think.

1:11:31Jawad MirYeah.

1:11:31Guest 2So yeah, now and again, a script will come in, and I'll be like, "This is so good, I wanna see this on the screen. Even if you don't make it, I still wanna see it."

1:11:41Jawad MirYeah.

1:11:41Guest 2And then it's, it's just like, "Well, how did that get dropped, and then this piece of rubbish..."

1:11:48Jawad MirAnother…

1:11:48Guest 2I'm not gonna mention the films that we've seen recently.

1:11:50Jawad MirNo, I know. I know.

1:11:51Guest 1Well, yeah.

1:11:51Guest 2But, you know.

1:11:52Guest 1I know. That's, that's extraordinary.

1:11:54Guest 2Yeah.

1:11:54Guest 1And yeah, there are scripts that I remember reading, like, 20 years ago, but I still think, "Boy, why didn't that get made?"

1:12:01Guest 2It's just…

1:12:01Guest 1And very often the answer is because it's now gone through so many…

1:12:04Guest 2Oh, yeah

1:12:04Guest 1... Rewrites that the negative cost that is trailing around after that script, if you wanted to take that script and make it at a studio… ... The studio who's already got it will say, "Well, we've spent two and a half million on that, so you need to reimburse us."

1:12:19Guest 2To develop it, yeah.

1:12:19Guest 1"You need to buy that."

1:12:21Guest 2There was that wonderful one about the boy raised by whales, which I loved.

1:12:24Guest 1Yeah. Which I would still make today if I, if I got the chance. But yeah, it's trailing about a $3 or $4 million negative cost.

1:12:31Guest 2Oh, I believe.

1:12:31Guest 1So, you know…

1:12:32Guest 2Yeah

1:12:32Guest 1... Turnaround cost, never gonna happen. And it's a shame, because it was…

1:12:36Guest 2Yeah

1:12:36Guest 1... It was such a touching film.

1:12:39Guest 2Yeah. So there's lots of those.

1:12:41Jawad MirIt's insane how, I mean, as mu… as important the business, film business is, how that kind of ends up destroying art, and but yet it's the same thing that saves art. So on, you know, on that note, if there's anything else that you guys wanna add on, I'd be more than happy to, but, I'm pretty much good in terms of, with my questions.

1:13:01Guest 2Yeah. I don't know. What about you?

1:13:03Guest 1No, I think that's about it. I gotta say…

1:13:05Guest 2Yeah

1:13:05Guest 1... In summary about Marcy's Mom, so I think I still look back at that as being… Probably the highlight of my entire professional career in terms of, you know, we got to work with one of my all-time film heroes…

1:13:20Guest 1... Bob Zemeckis, and…

1:13:21Jawad MirYeah

1:13:21Guest 1... And learn at his feet.

1:13:22Guest 2Yes.

1:13:22Guest 1I mean, he literally guided us. I got to work with, or we got to work with a bunch of really great actors who, many of whom we've remained friends with… ... Since. And the whole experience was genuinely joyous. I think there were, there were about three or four really horrible days

1:13:43Guest 2There w…

1:13:43Guest 1Particularly days when we were up against a brick wall in writing. It's like, "What on earth are we gonna do?" We had a couple of days where it's like we can't solve something, and we spent literally two whole days banging our head against a wall.

1:13:55Guest 2We did a lot of walking.

1:13:56Guest 1Yeah. But generally, it was, it was such a great experience that I would jump at the opportunity to do that again. It was, it was just so much fun. And, you know, the feeling of like you wake up in the morning at 6:00 in the morning and it's like, "I wanna get to set as soon as possible because I wanna…

1:14:17Jawad MirThat's right

1:14:17Guest 1... Keep doing this."

1:14:18Guest 2Yeah.

1:14:18Guest 1And I... Yeah. I've worked on some other films I've enjoyed working on, but for just unalloyed pleasure for about two years, it, this was, it was just fantastic.

1:14:32Jawad MirAnd I think that's one thing that a lot of us, you know, you don't realize it at the time, especially, you know, when m… when your film was released and w… whatever the feelings that you guys are going through. But now that, you know, the experience, that element of experience of working on that set, and then the people that you worked with, at the end of the day, I think, you know, in the, in the long run, that is just so much more important no matter how in that moment that you may feel. And you're mentioning that, right? So it, which is…

1:15:03Guest 1Yeah

1:15:03Jawad Mir... Which is fantastic.

1:15:03Guest 1Well, I mean, I can give you a very clear sort of, metric of this. Right at the time when we were about to do the deal to write Mars Needs Mums, Jeffrey Katzenberg offered me the opportunity to co-direct with Jen Yu Nelson, the second Kung Fu Panda movie.

1:15:27Guest 1The first Kung Fu Panda movie had been a huge hit. Jen and I…

1:15:30Jawad MirYeah

1:15:30Guest 1... Had worked very closely in story. She'd been, head of story on the show, and we actually... There's a, there's a credit on the front end of the movie which is about the action sequences, 'cause we did all the action sequences basically. And so yeah, Jeffrey sat me down and said, "You and Jen, take the movie. It's yours." And I would still go back now and make the choice to do Mars Needs Mums rather than, the much more successful Kung Fu Panda, you know, which has continued as a franchise. I, in fact, have just worked on Kung Fu Panda 4 as a…... Storyboard artist.

1:16:10Jawad MirWow.

1:16:11Guest 1I would still go back. You know, knowing everything I know, I would still go back and do Mars Needs Mums because the two to three years of doing that was such a positive experience. And yep, there was a couple of weeks of just horrible experience when the movie came out, but…

1:16:27Guest 2The job is making movies. It's... And, you know, the release is painful and, or thrilling…

1:16:33Guest 1Yeah

1:16:33Guest 2... And then painful, but the job is making them. And that, I think, is the most important thing to try and remember.

1:16:39Guest 1Yeah, don't, don't mortgage your life…

1:16:41Guest 2Yeah

1:16:42Guest 1... On the hope of a, an opening weekend, because making the movie's gonna take you two or three years. You better…

1:16:48Jawad MirYeah

1:16:48Guest 1... Be enjoying that.

1:16:50Guest 2Yeah.

1:16:51Jawad MirAnd I think it teaches you more about yourself than anything else, aside from making the film. Like, you discover yourself every day. At least from my experience, like, you know, I learn more about myself every day that I'm able to do this, or I have the ability to do this, or I can pull that off. And I think that's... And then obviously the people that you meet and the experiences and

1:17:12Guest 2Yeah

1:17:12Jawad Mir... That at the end of the day is, everything.

1:17:15Guest 1Yeah.

1:17:15Guest 2Yeah.

1:17:15Guest 1No, well said.

1:17:17Guest 2Great., Yeah.

1:17:18Jawad MirThank you so much, guys, for your time. Really appreciate it. Really had a great time talking to you, Wendy, as well.

1:17:23Guest 2Thank you.

1:17:23Jawad MirAnd

1:17:23Guest 2Thank you. Nice to meet you

1:17:24Jawad Mir... And it was pleasure. Likewise. Likewise. Simon…

1:17:27Guest 1Yeah

1:17:27Jawad Mir... We should, do it again, and maybe we can get Wendy on for Time Machine as well.

1:17:32Guest 2Oh, my gosh. I was really very involved with Time Machine, yeah.

1:17:37Guest 1No. No, you just picked up the pieces.

1:17:40Jawad MirYeah. No, definitely we should do something, again, and, I hope to chat with you, again, Simon. And it was very nice meeting you, Wendy. And best of luck with your kids and in their career choices and all that.

1:17:50Guest 2Oh, yes. And yours.

1:17:52Jawad MirThank you so much.

1:17:53Guest 1Okay. Thanks a lot.

1:17:54Jawad MirThank you.

1:18:02Guest 2Yeah.