'MEGADOC', Editor, Joe Beshenkovsky

0:00Jawad MirI kind of felt for her more than I did for Francis in that moment. And it kinda told me as an audience member that maybe she was not the main problem

0:09Joe BeshenkovskyThis is gonna sound crazy to say, but I feel like I've worked with personalities like Francis, these people who are geniuses. But they can be manic, and, they need to choose a villain. And in the absence of a studio or somebody else paying for the thing, I think Francis needed an enemy of sorts on the project, and maybe that was these other, these people who he thought, like, just couldn't jive with the way he wanted to do it. He talks about it as if people were forcing him to do it, but I think he was open to all these ideas, and then once he got into the situation, he hated it. And I think he directed his frustration and anger at those people. I think she did amazing work. That stuff is beautiful. Has art directed plenty... And she did Superman, I'm pretty sure.

0:53Jawad MirYeah.

0:53Joe BeshenkovskyRight? And so I think…

0:54Jawad MirGuardians of the Galaxy as well.

0:56Joe BeshenkovskyRight. And I think he resented the Marvel thing, and so he said, "These people are Marvel people. They're not…

1:02Jawad MirYeah

1:02Joe Beshenkovsky... Which I don't think was fair. I mean, he hired them.

1:13Jawad MirWelcome back, everyone, to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast, the Making of Stories. I'm your host Joe Adnir. Today my guest is Joe Bescikoswky, who's the editor of Mega Doc, which is a documentary about Francis Ford Coppola's last year film Megalopolis. Wonderful documentary if you haven't seen it. It really will teach you a lot about film school. Again, this is not really a behind-the-scenes story. It's Francis' story of how he came up with this project 40 years ago, and been at it, for that long. You'll see audition tapes from early 2000s with stars like Uma Thurman, Robert De Niro, Billy Crudup, and S… Paul Newman and so many others. Incredible piece of film. I urge you guys to watch it. My conversation with Joe was fantastic. He gave some incredible insights of how he went on tackling the film as an editor and what the story was and working with Mike and even being part of an interview with George Lucas and Francis Ford Coppola. Wonderful conversation. Do check it out, my conversation with Joe on Mega Doc.

2:16Jawad MirI just finished watching, Mega Doc literally, like, 10, 15 minutes ago. And, I saw the film when it came out and I spoke to the editors, of the film, Glenn, and I think there was another gentleman, I forget his name. We talked about the film and its insanity and its craziness, and as, obviously, it's explored in the doc as well. And how did you, did, what was, what's your sort of connection to the film besides being involved in the doc? Like, how did you, had you s… how, when did you c… get involved? Like, was it before the film came out? After?

2:59Joe BeshenkovskyOh, it was well before. We were, we were cutting the film while he was shooting it.

3:05Jawad MirReally?

3:06Joe BeshenkovskyYeah. So I was screening, I started screening I wanna say in Thanksgiving of the year that he was filming. So maybe I was a couple of months behind production. And I was getting footage and going through archival and all these things. So yeah. I mean, I, honestly, I think we kind of finished the doc not too long after he finished the film, to be honest.

3:36Jawad MirThat's, that's interesting. I didn't, I didn't realize it was that simultaneous. Because sim… because Hearts of Darkness, I'm not sure if you saw that with Apocalypse Now.

3:46Joe BeshenkovskyYeah, of course

3:47Jawad Mir... And I had the editors of that on, I think earlier this year, Jay Americo and, Michael and another lady. And, you know, that came little, a lot later on because after 10, 15 years. So when you were working on that simultane… f… first of all, how did you get on? Was it through Mike, through Francis, or just through s… a random connection?

4:10Joe BeshenkovskyI guess, through Francis. I'll call him Francis. I don't proclaim the right to do, to be on a first-name basis with him. But it was through him via his producer, Michael Letterman. They emailed me and asked if I wanted to work on it, and of course, I did. And spoke with Francis and kind of explained the film and why he wanted to have the documentary. And I mean, from my standpoint, I kind of explained that I didn't want it to be, you know, a behind-the-scenes doc or something, a puff piece. And he kind of, he emphasized that it wasn't gonna be that. And, Fig… Figgis was doing it, that type of thing. So it was a strange situation where I was hired independently of Mike Figgis. And we had kind of, we were kind of jammed together in the process.

5:01Jawad MirNice

5:03Joe Beshenkovsky... Yeah.

5:03Jawad MirA… and when you started working on it, or before you even did, like, when did you realize that this is as insane as everybody says as it is? And it's, it's been in the works for 25 years, right? So, like, what was…

5:18Joe BeshenkovskyLonger than that

5:19Jawad Mir... Was that, well, longer, 30, I think they said.

5:22Joe BeshenkovskyI think he coined…

5:23Jawad MirGo on

5:23Joe Beshenkovsky... I mean, this is part of the, kind of the journey for me and the really enjoyable part is, I would say technically…

5:29Jawad MirSure

5:29Joe Beshenkovsky... He co… he came up with the idea probably in 1981.

5:33Jawad MirYeah, I think you are right. In the interview he said ap… after Apocalypse Now.

5:36Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

5:36Jawad MirI think it was right after that, yeah. But what was that moment when you realized what this film is? As an editor, like, how did you…... Sort of react to that?

5:51Joe BeshenkovskyHonestly, I don't think I ever knew what the film was. I heard it from his perspective and what it meant to him and what he wanted to convey. Even watching, I mean, when I s… finally saw the film, I remember that there were scenes that I saw that he shot And as I was watching it, I had no idea what the fuck was going on, you know? So, even watching things that nobody will ever see again and kind of going through all the, all the footage and watching the shoots and his approach to it, I mean, it's clear he had an idea and it was something he wanted to try and he was, and he was all in for just wild improvisation and experimentation. That was the joy of the process for him. So yeah, I mean, it was, it was strange making a film where you don't know what, to some extent, like what the film is gonna be or what it's about, and, trying to, and trying to tell that story simultaneously.

6:51Joe BeshenkovskySo I think I was just focusing on his experience and the experience of the cast around him.

6:57Jawad MirI mean, with all, with all the respect in the world to Francis Ford Coppola, the doc made more sense than the actual film, which is, which is so, which is, you know... It's weird how that works and I actually really tried to like the film. I really did. Not because it's Francis. It's 'cause, I mean, he has such a massive, you know, filmography, and you're trying to figure out what is it that he's trying to say, not that, like, he's, like, a first-time director, right? So obviously…

7:28Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

7:28Jawad Mir... He's got all this experience. And there are bits and pieces that I may have gotten, but overall, in the grand scheme of things, you know, it was Shakespeare, but it wasn't, so it was kind of all over the place.

7:40Joe BeshenkovskyThat was, that was the importance of the documentary for me, is that I felt like…

7:44Jawad MirYeah

7:44Joe Beshenkovsky... It was an incredibly important companion piece, and that when you had them together, you would understand what he was trying to convey. Because I think if any… He had… There were important things he wanted to say, and that, and that he felt very strongly about and it, and he was obsessed with it for 40 years. And so, and I felt like the documentary was going to do a better job of conveying that than the film itself.

8:08Jawad MirYeah. And it did. I'll be very honest with you, I thoroughly enjoyed it. The film, it took me a couple of sittings to go through. This, I just watched in one sitting.

8:17Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

8:17Jawad Mir... And i-i-it, because there's, I mean, there's archival from, like, 2000. I forget the actor's name, the one who was in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul who was in this, film and…

8:32Joe BeshenkovskyGiancarlo.

8:33Jawad MirYes. And how his, him with Uma Thurman and, I think it was Billy Crudup, they were in it. And digging into that archival footage, just tell me the process of that for you. Aside from obviously working on, you know, what you have, simultaneously Mike is filming it, what was kinda going through the archival as an editor, how did you do that, the process, if you wanna sorta shed some light on that?

9:04Joe BeshenkovskyWell, so, I think Francis in a certain way was kind of steering me towards things. So they dumped a lot of stuff on us. I mean, I remember those script reads. It's the one where there's, like, a shot where it's, like, Uma, and then it pans over to Robert De Niro, and then it pans over to Paul Newman.

9:21Jawad MirYes.

9:21Joe BeshenkovskyAnd you're just like…

9:21Jawad MirYes

9:21Joe Beshenkovsky... What the fu… It's insane. And there was so much of that. So yeah, he was doing those script readings. The footage in a... It's very possible that it's not in the finished product. But he…

9:38Jawad MirI…

9:38Joe BeshenkovskyAnd this is the…

9:39Jawad MirI did see, I did see De Niro. Sorry to cut you off. I did see De…

9:42Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

9:42Jawad Mir... Niro. I didn't see Paul Newman. Go ahead.

9:44Joe BeshenkovskyWell, the larger story is, so after Apocalypse Now, Francis built his own studio. His own film studio.

9:53Jawad MirYeah.

9:53Joe BeshenkovskyAnd this is right after Apocalypse, and he started making a film called One From the Heart. And this was going… This film studio was kind of a utopian situation where he was gonna have filmmakers come in, they were gonna own their films, they were gonna do all this amazing stuff. So he starts making this film called One From the Heart, and in true Francis fashion, it goes, over budget. The studio collapses as a result. The film comes out, it doesn't do very well. It's very, it's in… hugely influential. If you see a film like La Land, it owes a lot to that film, and it really is beautiful. But he had this dream of a, of a studio, and it fell apart. This is Zoetrope Studios, by the way.

10:35Jawad MirYeah.

10:35Joe BeshenkovskyIt collapses. He goes bankrupt. He has to sell a ton of stuff. And, he has, he has people coming to his house to kind of take things away and take scripts. He's selling property. He is dead broke. And, out of the ashes of that came the idea for Megalopolis. And the initial scripts that I read, and this is starting in, like, '82 or '83, and notes just, reams and reams of notes, the character that Adam Driver plays is very much a kind of Robert Moses type, but he is dead broke. And he is Francis, like, at this moment. And that was, those were, like, the early germs of the story. And then, obviously he's struggling to get out of debt for the better part of 10 years, and finally the winery pays off, and he's able to get out of debt. But this idea was always sticking with him, and he constantly kept working on it. And it evolved into other things. But he was, he was holding salons where he would invite futurists and kind of visionaries to come, and architects, and they were, they were literally sitting around and trying to conjure up, the city of the future.

11:45Joe BeshenkovskyAnd thus came the ideas of kind of, organic walls and furniture that would kind of suit. And these little things that are, I wanna be generous, but they're kind of half-baked in his film, and I think he was very passionate about it, and there's just, clearly, like, so many ideas that he's trying to get out. So the story of Zoetrope Studios and that archive is amazing. And you really see Francis at, I mean, he is raging against the press. When the film came out, Paramount refused to release it, so he rented out Radio City Music Hall and did his own screenings, and then has an impassioned... Plea with the press, because he is kind of like a modern-day P.T. Barnum, like a circus barker, right?

12:29Joe BeshenkovskyIn particular in those days. And he's kind of high on the success of Apocalypse, because nobody believed in that, and he said, "Fuck you, I'm doing it," and it became what it became. So anyway, so he crashes down to Earth and Megalopolis begins out of that. So that was a lot of the archive that I went into, and even if it... Maybe it's not in the finished product, but it certainly in… informs my perspective on the film. And, it kinda gave more urgency to what Francis was trying to do. I mean, it was a 40-year dream. And when a man is spending $100 million plus of his own money, you can kinda understand where it's coming from, you know? I thought it was disappointing how people were mocking him and saying, "How could you spend all this money?" It's like, well…

13:15Joe Beshenkovsky... It's his money.

13:16Jawad MirIt is his money.

13:16Joe BeshenkovskyAnd I... Right, and I found that very inspiring, personally. It's like he was gonna go to the mat. He didn't care. And there's a moment, he's speaking to Ellie, his wife, and he's doing one of these, like, iPhone conversations before the film starts, and he says, he basically said, like, "Listen, when this film comes out, people are gonna make fun of it. They're gonna say, 'Ha, Francis, you're an idiot. You failed. It, this thing is a disaster.' But then in 10 years they're gonna say, 'you know what? That thing was kind of fun.' And in 20 years they're gonna say, 'You know what? He was really trying to do something.' And in 30 years they're gonna say, 'This thing was great.'" So I think he's... I think he had faith that this thing was gonna live and clearly beyond him. I mean, he's 83, 84 now, thereabouts. I think he had faith in the thing itself in that it was going to have a life regardless. He knew he was gonna be ridiculed when it came out, before he even started.

14:14Jawad MirYeah.

14:14Joe BeshenkovskyBecause that's the story of his life to some degree.

14:17Jawad MirIt is. I was actually watching one of his interviews. This was probably, I'm guessing, around early 2000s, where somebody asked him, it was just like a very casual general question how Godfather and other films are very popular among audiences. And, you know, he made it very clear that you have to understand that a lot of films when they come out, including The Godfather, are not really received well. They were not, like, ground b… breaking at the time, but over time they build up that kind of a, you know, rapport and that

14:51Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

14:51Jawad Mir... That, like that thing. And if you look at Shawshank Redemption, I mean, that's an example too. I remember it tanked at the box office. Now it's like a classic, right?

14:58Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

14:58Jawad MirLike, there's so many films like that. Yeah, you can argue Megalopolis is not as, you know, clear in terms of what it's trying to say, but I, but I do think that in time it is going to be one of those films where it's gonna be considered genius. You know, Stanley Kubrick was misunderstood too throughout his career.

15:17Jawad MirAnd, yeah, no, I…

15:19Joe BeshenkovskyAlso, Francis, he's gonna recut that film five times in the next five years.

15:25Jawad MirProbably.

15:25Joe BeshenkovskyI guarantee it.

15:26Jawad MirYeah. Probably.

15:27Joe BeshenkovskySo he's gonna keep figuring it out. Yeah.

15:29Jawad MirWhich is kinda cool because, I mean, a g… a guy like him who has done nothing but incredible work like, you know, Tucker. I even loved Jack when it came out. I know a lot of people don't like Godfather III. I thought it was one of the best Godfather films just because of the way it wrapped up. You know, it had its problems and everything…

15:46Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

15:46Jawad Mir... But the messaging was perfect, how it ended com… you know, that connected the first two films. And he even... The one thing I love about him, that he's not shy from showing himself as a crazy man on camera. Like, he did that with Hearts of Darkness, and he did that clearly with this. And, you know, kudos to him that, I don't think he cares. That's just the bottom line.

16:09Joe BeshenkovskyWell, why should he care? He also has, like, you know, 85, 80-year-old fuck you energy. Like, if, when you're that old, you don't give a sh… shit.

16:16Jawad MirYeah, that's true too. That's true too. A… After 55…

16:19Joe BeshenkovskyAnd why should you?

16:20Jawad Mir... I think you become like that. Yeah.

16:21Joe BeshenkovskyBut you mentioned, but you mentioned... Yeah. You mentioned Tucker, though. Watch Tucker. Read about Zoetrope Studios and watch Tucker again, 'cause that is the story of Zoetrope, that movie.

16:34Jawad MirIt's been a while. I'm gonna watch it again.

16:36Joe BeshenkovskyAnd Francis…

16:36Jawad MirYeah.

16:36Joe BeshenkovskyYeah. And Francis is Tucker.

16:39Jawad MirThat's with Jeff Bridges, right, if I remember correctly? Jeff Bridges was in it, I think.

16:44Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

16:44Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, I think so. Y… We went through all this archival footage. Was there... I mean, obviously you couldn't include everything. Whether relevant to the film or not, was there something that you found that stood out, that taught you something more about Francis, or just in terms of film, you know, gave you some sort of extra bit of education?

17:09Joe BeshenkovskyWell, I mean, it was certainly his... He was always trying to kind of make films a different way. And this, not necessarily in the archive, but I was, I was inspired by his approach to making this film, where he was saying... 'Cause he had this crew, and they're kind of clearly, like, caught in their own patterns and a familiar way of doing things, and he was, he was fighting against that the whole time, and he was trying to shake them up. He's like, "We're just gonna do crazy stuff. You know? I don't care how you did it before. I know that we can do it this way. I wanna do it this way. We're gonna experiment and just go crazy." And clearly people are bouncing off the walls, and this is a major part of, kind of, the falling out that he had with art department clearly. And I'm not saying any side is right or wrong. I think, you know, F… Francis has certain faults in that situation. But, he just, he wanted to have fun, and he wanted to experiment and do wild things.

18:10Joe BeshenkovskyAnd some people will, like, drop acid to get to that state, or they'll, come in with kind of like a childlike curiosity, which he has even at, with the level of experience he has. I find that exciting and inspiring, and it's, I think it's helpful to try and go into things and just…... Kind of be weird and do, and be crazy. 'Cause it's so easy…

18:30Jawad MirOkay

18:30Joe Beshenkovsky... To get caught into familiar patterns, and you c… you even know it when it's happening. I certainly experience it sometimes. And you have to say, "Oh, this is, this is pretty trite," or, "This is familiar, and we have to try something else and blow it up."

18:46Jawad MirYeah. I, for me, one of the things that stood out among many things in the film Mega Doc, not the film, the doc itself, I'm really horrible with names, so the actress, the blonde lady, who was in White Lotus, she was…

19:02Joe BeshenkovskyAubrey

19:03Jawad Mir... She did, she did all these takes, and then Francis said, "I want you to do something different, even if it means you're just standing there saying nothing." I thought that was such a great direction because what he was doing was he was letting her decide instinctively. W… And that normally is probably, most of the time, the best stuff comes out at that time. I don't know if that's what they ended up using at the end, but I thought that was a great piece…

19:26Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

19:26Jawad Mir... Of direction.

19:28Joe BeshenkovskyWell, but like, and like how awesome were the rehearsals that he did, and he's doing these…

19:31Jawad MirOh

19:31Joe Beshenkovsky... Weird games, and they had the like, you know, pick up my hat, and then he put it in the film.

19:37Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

19:38Joe BeshenkovskySo, you know, I mean, he was, he was like, "Oh, let's just do that thing. It's weird." And he kinda would say like, "If it's weird and it works, we'll keep it. If we don't, if it doesn't work, we won't use it." You know? And he was just trying to kind of shake it up in every component. And some of the visuals in that film are really breathtaking.

19:56Jawad MirThey are.

19:57Joe BeshenkovskyLike, I love the thing with the statues where they're slumping over. I thought that was just so beautiful...

20:03Jawad MirYeah. For me, the opening where he stands on the top of the building, that was amazing, the way the camera moves.

20:09Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

20:09Jawad MirAnd then there was a scene, it's been a while since I've seen the film, it's been a year, where the dec… the desk in the office was kinda like crooked, like half into the ground. I thought that was really co… It didn't make any sense to me, but just looked great, you know…

20:21Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

20:21Jawad Mir... At the time. You mentioned the art department. So I thought it was really cool that you guys actually spoke to the woman who was the head of the art department or s… s… the co-head. What was that something easy to get? I know you were not shooting it, you were editing it, but sometimes people are very reluctant, especially in Hollywood, to give their opinion on camera, especially of a film that is still being made or just made like a year ago. Was that challenging to get that perspective? And I'm glad that you guys did that because it kinda shows a bit of both side of the stories.

20:53Joe BeshenkovskyI don't think, I don't think it was challenging. I mean, to his credit, I think Mike had developed kind of a trust with all these people and a certain rapport. And because he was a peer of sorts, I think they felt comfortable talking to him about things.

21:06Joe BeshenkovskyAnd with her, you know, I mean, you know, it's tragic. Like, I mean, imagine, and I guess I experienced it, this to a small degree, but like it, you know, you get a call from Francis Ford Coppola, it's like the hand of God has descended, and they say, "I want you," and it's crazy. And then for it to kind of fall apart is heartbreaking. You know?

21:26Joe BeshenkovskyI mean, she had to walk away from the film to kind of, to defend her people and defend, what she thought was right. And so perhaps like part of it was that she just had to get her part of the story out there. But, anyway. But yes, I think that's, you know, fig…

21:47Joe Beshenkovsky... Is, having a good relationship with people, and I think he was able to do that.

21:53Jawad MirAnd it was, it was, honestly, it was a, one of the most beautiful moments in the doc because she started off being very kind of like, protective of her emotions. And as she continued talking and the camera zoomed in, you could see that she was emotional about it. It bothered her. And which I thought was ob… obviously for her it was not great, but from a sense of watching as an audience member, it, the vulnerability showed, and I kind of felt for her more than I did for Francis in that moment. And it kinda told me, as an audience member, that maybe she was not the main problem. I don't need you to say anything, but I'm just saying that as an audience member what I felt.

22:33Joe BeshenkovskyWell, this is gonna sound crazy to say, but I feel like I've worked with personalities like Francis, these people who are geniuses, but they can be manic. And they need to choose a villain. And in the absence of a studio or somebody else paying for the thing, I think Francis needed an enemy of sorts on the project, and maybe that was these other, these people, who he thought, like, just couldn't jive with the way he wanted to do it. And you know, it's weird that he wanted to, you know, do the volume and all these things. He talks about it as if, people were forcing him to do it, but I think he was open to all these ideas, and then once he got into the situation, he hated it. And I think he directed his frustration and anger at those people. And so they were collateral damage. I don't think anybody was at fault, to be honest. I think she did amazing work. That stuff is beautiful. And she has art directed plenty... I mean, she did Superman, I'm pretty sure.

23:39Jawad MirYeah.

23:39Joe BeshenkovskyRight? And so I think…

23:40Jawad MirGuardians of the Galaxy as well.

23:42Joe BeshenkovskyRight. And I think he resented the Marvel thing, and so he said, "These people are Marvel people. They're not..."

23:47Jawad MirYeah.

23:48Joe BeshenkovskyWhich I don't think was fair. I mean, he hired them, so. But this stuff happens a lot, whether it's Francis or somebody else. I mean, people, things don't work out sometimes.

24:00Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, agreed. Working with Mike, what was, that like? I mean, I've, I haven't seen a lot of his filmography, but I've seen Leaving Las Vegas, which has been a while. But what was working with him like? I mean, I loved that he was in the camera. I thought that was pretty cool, just like, Eleanor was in, Hearts of Darkness.

24:18Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

24:18Jawad MirBut just your working relationship with him as an editor and director.

24:24Joe BeshenkovskyI mean, it was strange. I mean, I mentioned that I was hired independently, so I think he, It came in with a healthy dose of mistrust. And then when we finally met, he came to LA and we met, and I think we kind of cleared the air about all that stuff, and he realized that I was not a mole for Francis or there to kind of control the film.

24:46Jawad MirOh.

24:46Joe BeshenkovskyBut I was working, I did work independently, and I would present cuts to him. And so, you know, I think he was very protective of the stuff he shot, and I worked that in, but I was very interested in working in this archival, which I think kind of gave an a… added depth to the experience and to the story. So, you know, I, so like a lot of films that I do personally, I kind of, I say, "I'm gonna go over here. I'm gonna work on this thing, and then I'm, when I make my pass, I'm gonna present it to you, and then we'll start working together." So there weren't a lot of notes or anything like that. It was, it was that kind of process. But he was incredibly generous and, he invited me. I w… I was able to come out with him when he did, interview Francis, after the film was shot, and to interview, George Lucas, which was he, you know, obviously he didn't have to do that, and it was a huge experience for me just to meet the man, and to meet George and to be out there.

25:51Joe BeshenkovskyI mean, we stayed, we stayed at, Francis' home, where he has a kinda guest house on the property. And, got to walk, you know, I went into, they have, I mean, it's insane. He has, like, three storage facilities on, and it's just full of boxes with art design from all his films. And just for Megalopolis, I mean, there must have been 18 shelves worth of stuff, of research and things like that. And then you're looking at dailies from, well, a test, like, casting stuff from The Out…

26:34Jawad MirAuditions, yeah

26:35Joe Beshenkovsky... Outsiders and from Godfather. Yeah, so just walking through that, especially for an i… archival nerd like me, it was really exciting to see. He has the boat from Apocalypse Now just sitting in a field. You know?

26:47Jawad MirGood Lord.

26:48Joe BeshenkovskyYeah, it's... So, that experience and to meet Francis personally was great and very generous of the, of him to do that.

26:58Jawad MirYou mentioned The Outsiders. You know, people know Godfather, sorry, Francis through Godfather, right?

27:04Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

27:04Jawad MirAs great as those films are, love them, I remember in grade 11, we had to read the book by S.E. Hinton, The Outsiders. And, you know, when you're in school, you don't wanna read, you wanna watch the movie.

27:18Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

27:18Jawad MirSo I remember watching that film and Ponyboy and then the, then realized like years later Tom Cruise was in it too. And I think, I think for me it was, it's his finest work. I think it's an amazing piece of film, that doesn't really get much attention, and there's no re-release or no nothing. Nobody talks about that film, and it's a great piece of cinema. It's a great piece of cinema.

27:42Joe BeshenkovskyWell, I mean, there's a Broadway show now, isn't there? There's like a musical or something.

27:45Jawad MirIs there?

27:46Joe BeshenkovskyI believe so.

27:47Jawad MirOkay. I didn't know that.

27:48Joe BeshenkovskyYeah, so I mean, he did that and Rumble Fish back to back while the bank…

27:52Jawad MirThat's right

27:52Joe Beshenkovsky... Was foreclosing on the studio. And he was, he was like, "We need to go and make these films becau… before they shut us down," or something like that. Yeah, and his eye for casting, I mean, look at that cast. It's crazy.

28:03Jawad MirIt is.

28:03Joe BeshenkovskyYou're talking about the next 20 years of Hollywood in that film. Yeah, it's amazing.

28:09Jawad MirYeah. No, definitely. I wanna jump back to your own career, just a little break from Mega Doc. How did you get start in editing and, or coming to this world? What was the catalyst, something that inspired you? If you wanna talk about that story a little bit, I would love to hear that.

28:28Joe BeshenkovskyI guess, you know, I was kind of like a AV kid, so in high school, I remember there was a three-quarter deck like sitting in dust over there, over somewhere, and so I went and dusted it off and started playing with it. And I always gravitated to editing to some degree. And then I remember being, I was a PA on some commercial shoot, and, I was a very bad PA, so they had me go and sit somewhere and guard some cones or something like that. And then somebody came over and was like, "Hey, man, I, you know, we need some help with this Avid. Do you wanna help?" And I was like, "Yes, let's go." And I kind of m… I think, I feel like from that moment on, I dedicated myself to being, to being an editor and trying to learn that. I think I felt like, to learn the craft, it was the best way to learn the craft. Not necessarily being on set, because that's a p… certain perspective, 'cause I remember being on a set and watching a DP, and I was like, "Man, this guy's amazing. Look how he... This is gonna be great." And then you saw the dailies, and it looked like garbage, and it was terrible.

29:29Joe BeshenkovskyWhereas, like when I'm in the edit, I know how people are doing things, and I think you learn a lot more, certainly about story and things like that. So I think that's how I entered it.

29:41Jawad MirWell, editing a doc is, to me, you know, you're basically the writer essentially, you know? And what's, what's amazing about documentaries is, having directed and edited a few s… as well, is that you have this idea that where the story begins and kind of an idea where you want it to go, but you have no idea how the hell those things are gonna get, come together. And…

30:09Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

30:09Jawad Mir... Then I think even with, in your case, in Mega Doc, yeah, you know, you knew where, what the beginning is and the ending is, the beginning of how the story, the concept started and the film finished, but everything else in between was happening right in front of you. It wasn't even like something you were pulling out of archive. It was like right in front of you.

30:26Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

30:26Jawad MirWhich is, I think, a really cool experience.

30:29Joe BeshenkovskyWell, I mean, that's why I'm pretty insistent that I have to screen everything before I even begin, 'Cause I think you need to s… see everything and get a sense of the arc and what the emotional, through line is before you can really engage in the material. It's, I think it's dangerous to start cutting while you're screening…

30:47Jawad MirYeah

30:48Joe Beshenkovsky... Or things like that. And everybody wants to rush and they wanna put four editors on a thing and build it like that. Invariably, those things don't do that well or they spend an extra three years fixing it. So my approach is always to screen the whole thing and then kind of see, get a sense of what the film is and what approach I can take, you know? Like I think it should be cut like this because, it should be st… kind of staccato editing because that's the way the character is, or it should feel like this. All those things are informed by the screening process.

31:23Jawad MirWhen you say screening process, I mean, I know when, I know what that means, but I'm just trying to get a sense. You would just basically do, like, a first cut or rough draft, and then you would try it. Is that what you're trying to say, or is that something else?

31:35Joe BeshenkovskyNo. Screen… screening is, like, you f… you shot 40 hours of stuff. I'm gonna watch 40 hours of stuff.

31:40Jawad MirOh, you're gonna watch through it. Okay. Got it.

31:41Joe BeshenkovskyAnd I make, and I make selects while I'm going along. And they're fat selects 'cause I don't know, you know…

31:47Jawad MirWhat you need

31:47Joe Beshenkovsky... Specifically what's important. So there's kind of a whittling down of material and breaking it and getting a sense of what the beats are and what the themes are, that type of thing.

31:57Jawad MirGot it. Yeah. And when you, sorry, I, when you said screening, I took it into a different direction.

32:04Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

32:04Jawad MirBut when you're watching all that footage, and it's, it's a daunting experience. I have done that. It's, it's a very daunting experience. Taking that fat chunks out for the beats and stuff, was there any m… I'm sure there were, or if something that you can remember or talk about, were there any beats and moments that you thought were going to go in or you were sort of adamant that they should go in but didn't go in, and why? Do you remember any?

32:35Joe BeshenkovskyI don't know. I don't,... I'm sure there's archival stuff that has not made the cut that I would, that I can make a strong argument for. 'Cause I think it's a different, a different experience. I think, you know, I think it's a successful film, but, if it's just the story of the making of as opposed to the story of this man's, like, understanding the 40-year journey to make the film, I think is probably more important than the making of the thing itself.

33:07Jawad MirYeah.

33:07Joe BeshenkovskySo perhaps that. But, out of the, out of the verite material, the stuff that was shot, no, I don't... I think everything that needed to be in there is in there.

33:19Jawad MirNice. Did you document yourself editing and ex… sharing your experience for a potential future doc?

33:25Joe BeshenkovskyI did not, no.

33:27Jawad MirI'm just joking. It's, it's just kind of inspiring. You see Francis, you know, you see a lot of archival stuff of a lot of filmmakers. I mean, apparently there is, I was watching, an interview with Spielberg. They have this collection of footage between him, De Palma, Scorsese, Coppola, Ron Howard, George Lucas in the '70s. And he…

33:49Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

33:49Jawad Mir... He called them the spoiled brats. Like, if I released it, I mean, I would probably get, like, sued from every even left, right, and angle. And to have that documented, all that, your journey, because y… not everybody knows that you're gonna make it to a certain level or you're not gonna make it at all. I think it's such a cool thing, and they were doing it way before now social media, where a lot of people still, you know, do it.

34:11Jawad MirAnd I think it's, I think it's very important, I feel, no matter what project you're working on, for your own sake, not for the world, I think it's important to start documenting yourself. Like, just put a camera there and express your emotions and feelings, whatever the hell you're doing. You're pissed off, you're happy. I think it's kinda neat. Down the road, not now.

34:30Joe BeshenkovskyI mean, you know, for my, for my benefit, yes, everybody should document as much as possible 'cause I, you know, need material to cut with. But, I don't know. From my perspective, nobody needs to see that. I will…

34:42Jawad MirNo, nobody needs to see that, but you need to see that down the road, is what I'm saying. In 20 years.

34:47Joe BeshenkovskyI keep my notes. Yeah, I keep my notes. That's the only hoarding that I do, is that I keep my notes and kind of my note cards and things like that. I pack them up in a box. I don't know if I'll ever look at them again.

35:00Joe BeshenkovskyBut, I think that's the extent of my, self-documentation. I'll put it that way.

35:07Jawad MirNo, that's fine. I, just a random question.

35:10Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

35:10Jawad MirWhat is one thing that you learned about yourself while working on this project? It doesn't have to be film related, just general.

35:22Joe BeshenkovskyThis was, this was one of the first projects where I can honestly say, like, the experience of making the thing, was more important than the finished product. And what I personally gained out of it, my perspective was that I've se… I have a, I have an experience with his film and with the material that nobody in the world has. And I know this in a, I know this story in a way that nobody else will ever know. 'cause I've been through the journals and looking at notes and all this stuff, and nobody will ever see that, in the same way. I mean, I think it's crucially important for someone to put out those journals and to put out those personal notes so that you can understand what he was going through and what the real story of that film is. 'cause I think it would be equally inspiring if more, you know, and similar to the experience I had. So I will... That's the thing that I got. You know, I mentioned that I'm in Madrid. I would say a major reason for that is because of that, because of working on the Megalopolis project.

36:36Joe BeshenkovskyJust his challenge of, You know, is this the life that we're supposed to lead? Like, really, this is your day-to-day. You're not... We don't have to, conform to these patterns or these expectations of what we're supposed to do. We can do something different, is the way I took it, in a small way. I know he… there's a grander concept that he's arguing for, but, I think that was the message that he was trying to convey, and hopefully the documentary does that for people if the film itself didn't.

37:10Jawad MirNo, it did it for me. I mean, I was... Look, being in the business, you know, for us, it wasn't really the making of, like you said, but it's always really cool to see how certain things unfold as much as you know. Like, as a director myself, just seeing Francis, you know, having a discussion with Shia, and Shia being a difficult actor, or, you know, that whole confrontation that they had in that scene where he wants to do it his way, and then he finally says, Francis says, "Okay, go do it," but then he says, "Well, what is my job?" I thought, I think things like that are so important, and I, especially from that scene, I learned so much. Like, you know, you have to figure out a way,.. You can be authoritative, or you can be completely lack of confidence and weak. You just gotta have that fine line between where you have to put your foot down in a respectable manner.

38:01Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

38:01Jawad Mir... But yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a film school, essentially. The doc that you worked on is a film school, and I hope people get to see it as they did Hearts of Darkness.

38:10Joe BeshenkovskyYeah. No, I hope so too. I mean, it's, I think, what it didn't have is it didn't have the benefit of the 15 years where, when Hearts of Darkness came out, Apocalypse Now was a masterpiece.

38:23Jawad MirYeah.

38:23Joe BeshenkovskyAnd so…

38:24Jawad MirYeah

38:24Joe Beshenkovsky... And so I think this came out, the proximity of time doesn't necessarily help it, but hopefully it gestates for a while and people will return to it. But, I mean, to see him doing the thing and how he works with people, is exciting to, ex… exciting to watch. In particular, like, how he's working with actors. It's pretty thrilling.

38:48Jawad MirYeah. Have you seen the miniseries The Offer?

38:52Joe BeshenkovskyI saw a piece of it.

38:54Jawad MirNot for you?

38:56Joe BeshenkovskyYou know.

39:00Jawad MirFair enough. Fair enough. What's, what's cooking for you in the future, if any project, or are you taking a break?

39:07Joe BeshenkovskyNo, never taking a break. I'm a working man. I gotta keep going.

39:10Jawad MirGood. Good, bec…

39:13Joe BeshenkovskyThere's a, we have a two-part Mel Brooks doc that's coming out in the new year.

39:18Jawad MirAh.

39:18Joe BeshenkovskyThat'll be on HBO. I have a film, that I directed that strangely enough, premiered at Venice in the same category as Mega Doc…... Which is called Mata Hari. Mata Hari, we're trying to find, get that out into the world, but, that played at Venice, and we won, we won the prize for that, for the Cinema category.

39:40Jawad MirCongrats.

39:40Joe BeshenkovskyThank you.

39:42Jawad MirWhat is it about?

39:44Joe BeshenkovskyIt is, so David Carradine, if you remember him from Kung Fu… ... In the '70s, he decided he wanted to direct films, and he wanted to do a, the biopic of Mata Hari, who was this spy courtesan, from the turn of the century. And he decided that he was gonna cast his young daughter to play the role of Mata Hari, and he was gonna film her over 15 years. And so our film is about that, and we have all the dailies from the film. It didn't, it ultimately didn't happen. They spent five years, and then it kind of fell apart as their lives fell apart. So the story's about the making, their process in making that film and what happened with Calista, his daughter, afterwards.

40:30Jawad MirWow. That sounds very intriguing, and just out of curiosity, how did you come across that story, and how did you get access to all the dailies?

40:40Joe BeshenkovskyWe were just, strangely, because we like to, m… me and my partner, we like to, work on archival films, so we were looking for a good fount of archive material. And so we went down the path of maybe, oh, a fail, a failed film project. And this, after the Orson Welles film that was recently released, this was the one that everybody talked about. So we contacted his estate. They still had the material. We contacted his daughter, Calista, and, got access to the stuff, transferred it, rebuilt it, had to sync the dailies, and go through that whole process.

41:20Jawad MirWorking with estate is always challenging. I have a colleague who is into archival.

41:25Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

41:25Jawad MirHe's not into directing, but he's into archival, and he's making this, he's producing this doc on, a music… musician. I don't know if you've heard of him. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. He worked with David Robbins on…

41:37Jawad Mir... Dead Men Walking, the vocal chords. Like, he's a ve… he's worked with Peter Gabriel and all that. So he's been working on this, and they're trying to, they're having some troubles with the estate, so it's, I've always heard, like, not so great stories about the estate, because they're very…

41:51Joe BeshenkovskyYeah

41:51Jawad Mir... You know, protective. So it's kinda cool that you were able to sort of, I'm sure you had little hiccups here and there, but to be able to get access to estate is not that walk in the park.

42:00Joe BeshenkovskyWell, you know, usually there's money involved, and, you know…

42:03Jawad MirYeah

42:03Joe Beshenkovsky... And there's, you have to work through the negotiations and stuff. I mean, there are horror stories, like there's the Prince horror story, which, I mean, God, I've heard, you know, multiple instances of, like, somebody making a completed film, and then it just never sees the light of day.

42:19Jawad MirYeah

42:19Joe Beshenkovsky... So yes, there, it depends how much control they wanna wield. I think with David's, with David's estate, I think they were much, easier about it.

42:32Jawad MirThat's good. Well…

42:32Joe BeshenkovskyAnd I think we're, we're excited to get that stuff out.

42:35Jawad MirI, you know, I, it's funny you mention, Mel Brooks. His film, most recent film comes, c… comes out this Friday. I think it's called Ella McKay, with Jamie Lee Curtis. And

42:45Joe BeshenkovskyAre we talking about the same person?

42:47Jawad MirAre we talking about the same? No, we're talking about different people. Sorry.

42:50Joe BeshenkovskyWe're talking about the great…

42:51Jawad MirWe're talking…

42:51Joe Beshenkovsky... The great Mel Brooks, who, is nearing 100 years old. One of the…

42:58Jawad MirNo, we're not talking about the same person, sorry. My b…

42:59Joe BeshenkovskyPerhaps the funniest man who ever lived. He did The Producers, he did Blazing Saddles, Spaceballs.

43:09Jawad MirDid he also do Terms of Endearment?

43:11Joe BeshenkovskyNo, you're thinking of James Brooks.

43:12Jawad MirYeah, James Brooks. I'm sorry. Yes, you're right.

43:15Joe BeshenkovskyAlso…

43:15Jawad MirMy b…

43:16Joe Beshenkovsky... Also a genius.

43:18Jawad MirAlso a genius. I would love to cha… chat with you about both of those films, man. Let's, let's do that, you know, in…

43:24Joe BeshenkovskyFor sure

43:24Jawad Mir... I think when... You said your HBO doc comes out next year, in Decem… in January?

43:28Joe BeshenkovskyI think so. I don't have the exact air date, but I think that's what we're trying to do January. Yeah.

43:33Jawad MirOkay. And the other…

43:34Joe BeshenkovskyThis…

43:34Jawad Mir... One will probably take some time, I'm guessing, with the distribution and all that.

43:39Joe BeshenkovskyWho knows, man? It's a weird world out there right now.

43:41Jawad MirI know. It's challenging. There's, there's so much stuff, but there's not good enough stuff. That's the way I look at it.

43:49Joe BeshenkovskyYeah.

43:49Jawad MirIt's really bizarre. Cool. Awesome, man. Anything else you wanna add, in the end? Anything we missed?

43:59Joe BeshenkovskyI mean, possibly, but we don't have to…

44:02Jawad MirNo, say it

44:03Joe Beshenkovsky... I don't have to... No, I don't, I don't have anything to offer.

44:07Jawad MirOkay

44:08Joe Beshenkovsky... You know. Yeah, if people, if somebody's watching this and they have a question, they can certainly just, you know, find me online, and I'm pretty good about that.

44:18Jawad MirCool. Awesome, man. Thank you so much, Joe, for your time and for your insight. I really appreciate it. And congratulations on your, the victory at Venice and your upcoming doc, and especially Mega Doc. I truly enjoyed it. And you know it and I know it that editing pretty much does the magic, not to take away any credit from Mike and everybody else, but it's, it's a phenomenal doc.

44:39Joe BeshenkovskyWell, I appreciate that, thank you, and thanks for having me on.