Guillermo's Pinocchio, Animator, Jan Erik-Maas

0:00Jan Erik MaasI'm a parent as well, and so this whole father-son relationship, you know, and I have a dad, of course. You know, all those values. I mean, what he did with it to make it about these kind of, about those relationships and to do it so strong. I mean, the characters are so strong, right? They're, they're so... The motivations are very clear. And it was, it's li… it's the best animated film I've ever worked on in terms of story, and it was the most fun experience I've had in, like, 20 years of working on films, right? I chose Pinocchio because the daycare of our kid was on the way to Pinocchio's studio and not Wendell & Wild one. And, because I was really torn. I'm a huge fan of Henry Selick's, right? I worked with him on Coraline. I love his work and his energy, and I really wanted to work with Henry again, and but then, you know, it just didn't work out. It would've been a nightmare just logistically.

1:04Jawad MirWelcome back, everyone, to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast: The Making of Stories, and your host Jawad Mir. Today my guest is stop motion animator Jan Erik Mas, who has worked on Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio that came out a few years back. It was an exciting and wonderful conversation. Jan is a wonderful guy. We talked about work. We talked about how he got on Pinocchio, his life. Just very generic stuff sometimes. Very cool and calm conversation. Talked about behind the scenes stuff, the scene that he worked on, and the challenges that we went through for the film. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Jan Erik Mas for Pinocchio.

1:39Jan Erik MaasI'm…

1:39Jawad MirThat's…

1:39Jan Erik Maas... I'm very impressed by your, by your work. I haven't really watched anything yet, but just from looking at the, at the documentaries and stuff, I'm…

1:49Jawad MirOh, thank you, man

1:50Jan Erik Maas... Impressed. Very... It looks very cool, the work that you do, and, it's, yeah, you're making the world a better place. I love it.

2:01Jawad MirI think we all…

2:02Jan Erik MaasI will watch…

2:04Jawad MirSorry, go on.

2:05Jan Erik MaasI will absolutely watch a lot of the films.

2:07Jawad MirI appreciate that, man. Look, I think we are... Artists always make world a better place in different ways. I mean, the stories that you are involved in, especially what we're here to talk about today, Pinocchio.

2:18Jan Erik MaasYeah.

2:19Jawad MirGuer… Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio based on the original book. I mean, it's, it's a remarkable piece of cinema, but it's also, it's a very moving story. And, you know, stories have massive impacts on people that sometimes we never know.

2:33Jan Erik MaasRight

2:33Jawad Mir... So you're in the same boat, so kudos to you, too.

2:38Jan Erik MaasYeah, I always, it's one of those, I always think I'm... Well, I always wish I could do more to make, you know, more activism, I would say, in my work. I always wanted to, and I ended up, you know, playing with puppets all day as a career.

2:56Jawad MirSo I will tell you that I, saw the ver… Just kind of give you history of Pinocchio. The very first Pinocchio I ever saw was Disney's Pinocchio that…

3:07Jan Erik MaasOkay

3:07Jawad Mir... You know, came out way back. I probably saw it in the '80s, and the '90s again. One of, one of probably in my view at the time when I saw it, I didn't know it was based on a book. It was one of my favorite Disney classics. Like, you know, just about a boy who wants to be a real, a wooden boy who wants to be a real boy. And then A.I. Artificial Intelligence came out. I don't know if you've seen that, Steven Spielberg and Stanley Kubrick one, which is a similar concept of this robotic boy who wants to be a real boy. And then…

3:36Jan Erik MaasRight. Yeah, I remember

3:37Jawad Mir... Yeah. And then Pinocchio, the Pinocchio you worked on came out, and Robert Zemeckis' Pinocchio came out.

3:43Jan Erik MaasYeah.

3:43Jawad MirSo as much as I'm a huge fan of Robert Zemeckis, I still haven't seen that film because it looked pretty much identical to the animated film. And…

3:51Jan Erik MaasYeah, same. I have not watched it. I somehow didn't feel any interest in watching it.

4:00Jawad MirYeah. I, so that's, that was the same feeling that I had. But I saw Guillermo's film and Mark's film, and I absolutely loved it. And then I re-watched it this morning along with that 30-minute or 36-minute behind the scene. You know…

4:14Jawad Mir... It is such an amazing piece of film, and there's so many things in that film that weren't in the quote, unquote, "Disney classic." You know…

4:23Jan Erik MaasRight

4:23Jawad Mir... I don't know if it was actually in the book, but kudos to you and your team. You know, you guys did a remarkable job, not just in animation but in storytelling and human emotions.

4:34Jan Erik MaasYeah. Thank you. I think, I think, I've, to me, I really love, and I've, I've, I have to confess, I've never read the original book. You know, the… ... Carlo Collodi book. I only knew the Dif… Disney version from way back same, end. So I went into it,.. I mean, I knew the rough structure and, you know, what happens sort of. You know, they, he wants to be a real boy. He, and it's always called Pinocchio, right?

5:10Jan Erik MaasSo the story is more centered around him, and he goes, to Candy Land, and he's sort of naughty, and he's got all these trials and challenges. And in the end, it's all sort of happy ending. And I love what Guillermo did with it, right? Like, what, where he, where he took it, whi… which is, for me, I always, I always thought it could be, it could've easily has, have been called, Geppetto, right? Because really, like, in this Pinocchio version, I f… I always felt the biggest story arc, the biggest obstacles were Geppetto's.

5:53Jan Erik MaasAnd this whole... And, you know, I'm a parent as well, and so this whole…... Father-son relationship. You know, and I have a dad, of course. You know, all those values. I mean, what he did with it to make it about these kind of, about those relationships and to do it so strongly. I mean, the characters are so strong, right? They're, they're so... The motivations are very clear. And it was, it's l… it's the best animated film I've ever worked on in terms of story, and it was the most fun experience I've had in, like, 20 years of working on films, right? And…

6:30Jawad MirWow.

6:31Jan Erik MaasI, and not just, not just because it was a good story, but also, I mean, there's other things that contributed to it as well, like the…

6:37Jawad MirThe people you work with, right? Like the team.

6:39Jan Erik MaasPeople were there. The studio, ShadowMachine, the studio where we, where we did the film, it was, it was a really nice place to work. They really treated people well. And then working with Mark especially. You know, Guillermo was sort of remote directing, you know, throughout COVID and all that stuff. He wasn't around really much. I met him, like, twice, you know? But Mark was extremely, was amazing to work with really. Like, and we can talk about him and all that stuff later. But, anyway, yeah, for, so I think the, what he did with Pinocchio, you know, the... Yeah, it was just beautiful to work under such a strong story. And I was really lucky that I got, involved early in the shoot. You know, the animation movies usually, you know, ramp up with just a few people starting the testing, the devel… development, and then it grows and grows and grows.

7:40Jan Erik MaasAnd I got hired pretty early on Pinocchio, which was really lucky and was really happy about that. And, I got two really good sequences. You know, I was c… cast basically on those sequences as an animator, and they were, like, you know, some of the best work I think I ever did, and it was really fun.

8:02Jawad MirThat's amazing, man.

8:05Jan Erik MaasWe… Yeah.

8:05Jawad MirSorry, go on.

8:07Jan Erik MaasNo, they were, I mean, so I was just thinking about it. The, so the first thing I... So this is like a, was a really special thing as well, was that I got to animate basically a whole scene in the movie by myself, basically. Usually you have to share scenes with other animators, right? So because you j… you know, simply the scheduling, right? Like the, usually you know, s… some people do the return shots, for example, 'cause you're then, like, on one set and the other animator does all the return shots on ano… another set that is identical, right? With s… another set of puppets, for example. And often you know, it's just other people. You share the scene with, you know, shots from different animators sort of seamlessly linked together. And this was the first time ever that it happened to me that I got basically to animate a whole sequence. It's the sequence where they walk through the woods, you know, the Birch Woods sequence, where they walk back from the, meeting with the podestà and the mayor and stuff like that.

9:16Jan Erik MaasAnd, you know, the podestà wants to send Pinocchio to school and all that stuff, right? So they, and Geppetto's all upset, you know. And they're walking through the woods and, that whole sequence where he... But in the end, it ends with this climax where Geppetto says, "You're such a burden," you know? And Pinocchio's like, "Wow." He gets left with this bomb in his lap or this huge emotional hit. You know, they're like, they're, like, going at each other. And, you know, they're really, they're really emotionally stabbing at each other there. You know, he's like, you know, "I don't wanna be like Carlo. You know, Carlo's dead." And Geppetto goes, you know, "You're such a burden." And, you know, and that sets off, for me that is what, one of the most important sequences in the film where it s… sets off why Pinocchio leaves and he wants to prove himself to his dad. And, you know, and Geppetto realizes that, you know.

10:18Jan Erik MaasYeah. Anyway. It, so that s…

10:21Jawad MirNo.

10:21Jan Erik MaasThat sequence was very rare that you get to animate. And it's like, I don't know, two minutes long or something. And I worked on it, like, a, like, a year I guess, I think.

10:32Jawad MirThat's, that's, you know, such a great thing to put in perspective and I'm glad you mentioned that because not a lot of people know how much time and effort goes into animation, let alone s… traditional animation, let alone stop motion animation, right? So it's a very tedious and complicated and long process. And you talked about the scene about the burden. For me, that was the gist of the story. Like, the film, you know, you said the film could've been called this. I think it could've been called Burden because that's literally what…

10:57Jan Erik MaasRight

10:57Jawad Mir... The film was a… was about, was burden. And when he f… when he says that, you know, his nose didn't grow, I mean, and then, you know, it's like a sta… stab in the heart, right? Like, oh crap, you know? So they was telling the truth.

11:09Jan Erik MaasRight. Right

11:09Jawad MirYeah. It was, it was a very meaningful and powerful scene and I can't tell you how much I appreciate animation, let alone stop motion animation. I've directed a stop motion film as well once, a long time ago.

11:21Jan Erik MaasWow.

11:21Jawad MirAbout 15 year. It was, like, a short. It was…

11:23Jan Erik MaasYeah

11:23Jawad Mir... Like, two minutes long. But I know what the amount of effort and, you know, the, that texture and that feel that you have…

11:30Jan Erik MaasYeah

11:30Jawad Mir... That goes into it. And then I was watching on the making of that you guys actually designed these characters on 3D, printers and then basically… .. You know, printed them and then sort of took out and put them in the real world. Fabulous. Just remarkable. I'm so glad I saw that making of. I mean, it just puts…

11:46Jan Erik MaasYeah

11:46Jawad Mir... Things in perspective even though if you know it, right? So it's, it's incredible to see that.

11:51Jan Erik MaasYeah. Yeah, I don't know how technical you wanna get, but we can talk about the techni… the technical stuff.

11:58Jawad MirYeah. We, I would, I would love to. So before we jump into that, I just would love to know… Very briefly, how did you get onto the project?

12:06Jan Erik MaasOh, yeah.

12:06Jawad MirAnd then just a little bit of a history of what was the catalyst in your life that brought you into this world of animation or stop motion animation?

12:17Jan Erik MaasWell, I'll start there. I had a really cool art teacher in high school who showed me, a few animated films. I don't know, you know, as part of, you know, art class and stuff like that. I was…

12:37Jawad MirShh.

12:38Jan Erik MaasAnd, he, there's this one movie that sticks with me. Have you ever seen Balance?

12:47Jawad MirNo.

12:48Jan Erik MaasIt's, it's a short film. It's like from the '80s. I think it won an Academy Award for Best Animated, Short back then. It's like '80, in the '80s somewhere. Maybe '91 or something. I can't remember. But it was, it was made in Germany back in the d… you know, at one of the art universities there. And, it's called Balance. It's, it's, just these figures standing on this square plate hovering in midair.

13:17Jan Erik MaasAnd they walk around, and the th… the whole thing sort of shifts whenever they move, right? Because it has to stay in balance. And anyway, it's a really powerful, it's got a lot of symbolism and a lot of the beaut… you know, the beauty in animation where you can, it's, it's so open to, it lends itself so much to project your own

13:41Jawad MirInterpretations

13:42Jan Erik Maas... Like, just, yeah, and values i… into it, right? Because it's not real. It's, it's animation, and it sort of, it makes that connection a lot of times easier. Anyway, th… that movie really stuck with me and, I knew I wanted to do some kind of art stuff, and then, I couldn't decide whether I wanted to do, you know, graphic design or architecture or blah. And then I sort of at some point had realized, like, hey, there's animation, and you can kind of animate anything, right? You can… And so I went to a foundational studies class in London, and that's where I met, like, some really cool people who did animation in the basement. Like, the animation department was in the basement. And usually you were supposed to, like, try a little bit of everything. You do a little bit of live action stuff, a bit of documentary stuff, you do a bit of sound stuff. And, you know, it's a sort of orientational year. And I just, like, I just stayed in the basement and did animation. And from then on, I was, like, hooked.

14:43Jan Erik MaasAnd I always loved, you know, animation and especially the classic Disney things. And I also early on watched, all the Swankmayr, Jan Švankmajer films, and they, that was, like, really influential on me. I, you know, he used, he uses real things and the real objects. It's not all just hand-drawn stuff, right? Like, it's, it's… And that's how, I think that's why I ended up in stop motion, because I always liked making things more than… I was never that good at drawing. I mean, I'm okay now, I think. I've worked very hard to get decent at drawing, but I'm not… You know, there were kids around me back growing up who were just naturals, right, like, who were just like, they just did it all the time.

15:37Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

15:37Jan Erik MaasThey're just talented, and it was like I was never one of those kids. But I guess, yeah. Anyway, that's how, that's how I slid into this animation thing. And then I was just lucky, I think, that I had parents who supported me and that I just managed to pop from, slide from one job to the next and, you know, that the paths never sort of stopped. And it eventually led me to come to the US, in, like, 2008 to work on Coraline. And Anthony, who you interviewed, he got me, got me over on to work on Coraline. And, then I fell in love with Portland and the Northwest and, sort of after that tried to stay here for as much as I could. I first had to go back and forth, you know, 'cause at first was here on a, on a work visa, and, you know, they kicked me back out, and then I would come back on the next film for a bit and, you know. But I, eventually got a green card and managed to stay, and that was a big change for me to make this, to be able to make this home here.

16:47Jan Erik MaasAnd then, yeah, I did, like, a few more Laika films after I had got the green card, but then I knew I could also work other places. And, at that point I, you know, got married, and we had a kid on the way. And the commute out to Laika from where we live here in Portland is pretty gr… gruesome. It's pretty long car commute out there and back. And those with families who still work at Laika, they all move out there to, you know, out there to be close. So if, like, if I had… Yeah, w… right now with family and kids and stuff, I could not work there because I would never see my kids, you know. It's just…

17:31Jawad MirYeah.

17:32Jan Erik MaasSo I knew that I wanted to leave Laika and do something in Portland. And yeah, and then Wendell & Wild and Pinocchio were sort of in the, in the works. I knew about both films, starting up and so I knew that I would, that, you know, I knew I would kind of work on one of them, and so it ended up…

17:55Jawad MirNice

17:55Jan Erik Maas... Being Pinocchio. And it funnily being, and it just being, I chose Pinocchio because the daycare of our kid was on the way to Pinocchio's studio and not Wendell & Wild one. And, because I was really drawn. I'm a huge fan of Henry Selick's, right? I worked with him on Coraline. I love his work and his energy, and I really wanted to work with Henry again and, but then, you know, it just didn't work out. It would've been a nightmare just logistically. So, yeah.

18:26Jawad MirWell…

18:26Jan Erik MaasAnd it…

18:26Jawad MirThe univer… the universe was trying to pull you in the other direction, right?

18:30Jan Erik MaasRight. Yeah. So.

18:33Jawad MirThat's awesome.

18:33Jan Erik MaasThat's how I ended up on…

18:35Jawad MirYeah. Sorry. Sorry, go on.

18:39Jan Erik MaasBut it's... No, that's, that... So that's, that's how I ended up on Pinocchio. And, I mean, you know, stop-motion is such a... The feature film stop-motion world is a really small, really small community. You know, I don't know, my guess is like there's like 100 people, 150 people in the world who do this kind of stuff at that level, right?

19:04Jan Erik MaasAnd so, and a lot of it has, like Portland has become a hub for stop-motion, you know, not, mostly because of Laika, because Laika has been, very cons… you know, consistent and it's, and, you know, employed a lot of people over the years and, so, you know, Portland has become this sort of hub, which is one of the reasons why then Wendell & Wild and Pinocchio came to Portland to set up shop here. So yeah.

19:36Jawad MirYeah. Laika came out around 2008 or '9, right? Around that time?

19:41Jan Erik MaasYeah.

19:41Jawad MirOr…

19:41Jan Erik MaasI mean, they got started before then, but they started Coraline, I believe, in 2006 or '7.

19:49Jawad Mir'Cause I remember when it was first announced, I just, now that you mentioned the name Laika, I remember telling myself, "Okay, there's a new company, even though I have nothing to do with animation."

20:00Jan Erik MaasYeah.

20:00Jawad Mir"I should apply for a job there." And I think I did. Nothing ever came out of it.

20:04Jan Erik MaasYeah.

20:04Jawad MirBecause I had no experience whatsoever at the time.

20:08Jan Erik MaasNo

20:08Jawad Mir... But let's t… go to Pinocchio and the technicalities…

20:11Jan Erik MaasYes, yeah

20:11Jawad Mir... Of his man. Like, tell me about, like, what was the most technical thing, scene, part of the scene that you did, or anything that you can talk about that was extremely challenging to you, whether it was through the work or through the emotions of the work or, you know, or b… a bit of both?

20:28Jan Erik MaasWell, so I mean, Guillermo loves to move the camera. He does a lot of, a lot of moving camera stuff, and that's always a huge pain in the butt for, stop-motion animation because we generally have to shoot on ones, on single frames because the camera's moving. Otherwise, you get the weird motion jitter stuff.

21:02Jan Erik MaasAnd, so that's always much harder to shoot on ones than on twos. That… that's one challenge. And also, you gotta, it's just really complex, right? You gotta, you gotta, the, get the characters in the right positions at the right time. You have to pre-plan it all. It's, it just, it's a huge, complicated just to set up a long tracking camera shot of something like that, you know?

21:28Jawad MirRight.

21:28Jan Erik MaasAnd, so th… that's just, like, technically hard, you know, difficult to do. And then we talked about this scene in the birch woods, like they were, you know, going at each other emotionally. And when you're animating, you have to sort of be in that moment and, you know, we're both sort of a… we're sort of actors. Not quite, but yeah, we are, you know. We have to be emotionally there.

21:54Jawad MirYeah.

21:54Jan Erik MaasWe have to give life to these characters and emotions and it's just, you know, you do that for months. You're like having a screaming match with some, two characters for months, right? Like, it's emotionally draining, right? At the end of, and then right after that sequence kind of, was finished, I think I got, and then I did another sequence. I was given a bunch of shots with the, Volpe, with the, you know, where Volpe sort of turns evil with Pinocchio in the, and he chops off his nose with a sword.

22:27Jawad MirYeah.

22:27Jan Erik MaasAgain, which was sort of, sort of, a lot of evil anger emotions in this sort of scene. I was like, "I just wanna animate a happy, something funny," you know? It was, that, so emotionally that was kinda hard to stay in that. And, yeah, to, yeah, to, you know, to pull off these, the body language and yeah, the to keep up the energy, consistently in those. You know, I mean, you have…

23:04Jawad MirYeah

23:04Jan Erik Maas... You have the director and the directors and supervisors and people there to help you do that, right? And if you veer off track then they'll bring you back on track, right? So.

23:17Jawad MirYeah. I… in, you know, you talked about, and it's, and I've experienced this too with stop-motion, it's a little bit different, is that when you're working on something that's takes, it's full of fun. You know, you naturally are reacting in a more of a…

23:34Jawad Mir... You know, fun way, like you're happy and what have you. When you're working on something dark or something serious, it takes a toll on you. So these scenes, you know, the emotional or the dark scene that you're talking about, was there, in this film or in general, do you ever pick out moments to be in that kind of a zone from your personal life? Like, you know, just to kind of feel that, bring that emotion out, that anger?

24:01Jan Erik MaasI mean, so yeah. I guess. I think… It wasn't really… for me, there isn't like a, you know, I haven't had… I didn't have a con… similar conversation with my dad ever, thank God. But, you know, I think you draw from life, right? You draw from your life experiences or other s… you know, things you've seen in your, in your life. So I think you definitely go there emotionally. And the good thing also is it's, it's like you have the voice performances of the actors to listen to, you know…

24:46Jan Erik Maas... For weeks, for months, for, you know. And if they're good performances, then that really helps you stay in it.

24:54Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Yeah.

24:54Jan Erik MaasAnd, so yeah, I… yeah, you definitely I think, I think you definitely, have to, have to, go there and, or try to go there, right? Like I don't know. For Pinocchio, it was be… I think bec… there was, there were, you know, there were pretty strong moments and pretty,... But they're also very, as we talked about it earlier, I think the roles, the emotional arcs of the characters are so strong and so…

25:40Jawad MirYeah

25:40Jan Erik Maas... Clean that it wasn't that hard to jump into that.

25:48Jawad MirSure.

25:48Jan Erik MaasYeah. Yeah. Yeah. I…

25:50Jawad MirAnd…

25:50Jan Erik MaasYeah

25:51Jawad Mir... No, that makes sense. And was there, you know, I'll get to technicalities again. I just wanna talk about a little bit more on an emotional level. You know, we I truly believe that, at least for me, you know, when it comes to making the films that you make or do, or traveling the world that you would travel for work, whatnot, you learn more about yourself than anything else, right? Or you learn about your certain past through your present, or you learned about something, how to deal with something in the potential future through your present. Working on Pinocchio, the intensity of the relationship between father and son or any other relationships, did you… let's talk about father and son. Did you s… understand something that you probably didn't understand about your father's approach when growing up because of Pinocchio? It kinda changed that perspective or helped change that perspective at least?

26:49Jan Erik MaasYou're going deep.

26:54Jawad MirIf you're, if you're okay with it. I don't have to.

26:57Jan Erik MaasOh, sure. I can… no, it's, that's fine. It's, it's okay. I haven't,.. I think,.. Wow, lots of thoughts. It's hard to put that into words. I don't think it changed. I mean, there was no revelation for, not for my dad and me relationship. But I think, it's definitely, you know, I mean, for my own, for my own, you know, like my own career. My… so my dad's a, is a radiologist. He's a doctor. He, you know, very much I would say a workaholic and a, and a sort of academia science person.

28:05Jan Erik MaasAnd I'd have to go and call him and really, you know, go there and talk with him about it. But I always had the feeling that he was a little terrified that I tried to go into the arts and, you know. And I am still, you know, you know, struggling with my career and all that stuff, right? Like I think, it's, you know, it's, it's less stable and it's, and it's, you never really quite know what the next job, next film is gonna be. And there's a lot of challenges, right, like with this career path, and, not just financially, but also, you know, sec… job security wise. And, you know, I ended up like halfway around the world. I'm not sure he's happy about that. But, yeah, so I think, I think there was always for me an aspect where, of course, you know, you wanna make your parents proud I think.

29:07Jan Erik MaasI think every, I want that acceptance and that, you yearn for that acceptance and that, how you say, appreciation from your parents, right?

29:20Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

29:21Jan Erik MaasI think it's, it's natural. It's like who we are. Like it's how we work. And I think, so I, for him, again, coming from academia and stuff like that, so for him the big he, I don't think he really ever watched any of the films I've worked on, which is kind of sad. I made him watch Pinocchio when he visited. And he vis… so he visited, a couple years, no, last year. Last year, he came for the… he visited me for the very first time in 20 years, at a place where I lived and doing my work. So this is the first time,... Sadly, the Pinocchio shoot was over, but I took him over to the studio, and we looked at some of the sets that are still there. And, you know, he got to hold a puppet, and, you know, it was like the cabinet with all the awards and stuff. And, you know, that was a big moment for him and for us, and that was, that was really, it was really nice. And then I made him watch the film and, that was, yeah, that was… So I think, and so one of the reasons he came to visit was because he finally retired and I feel like I've… Since he retired, I feel like I have a different dad, you know?

30:35Jan Erik MaasI... But it's great. It's, it's, you know, and hopefully he'll come visit more, you know. But

30:43Jawad MirYeah. No, I think, first of all, thank you so much for sharing something personal. You know, when you told me your dad was a radiologist, the first thing came to my mind before you even said what you said was…

30:53Jawad Mir... Without stereotyping, majority of the people who are in the medical field, you know, they prefer someone, they prefer their child to go not necessarily in the medical field, but something of that nature, like in terms of education…

31:04Jan Erik MaasSure

31:04Jawad Mir... In terms of status, if you wanna call it, right?

31:07Jan Erik MaasYeah.

31:09Jawad MirSo I get that. And I, and I think, I think it's a, it's just one of those things, and I feel that, you know, our generation, probably the parents… I mean, they, you know, my parents were very supportive too, but that level of understanding that I may have or you may have for our kids in terms of career path is gonna be a lot different than it was back then. And I'm sure for their…

31:34Jan Erik MaasOh, yeah

31:34Jawad Mir... For our, for our parents, for them, their parents, you know, it was different. So it, that evolves every generation. But it's, it's… But I also think if there is not, you know, because you said the word acceptance, if there's, if we don't feel any kind of resistance, for the lack of better word…

31:51Jan Erik MaasYeah

31:51Jawad Mir... We may not work harder as we already have, you know. Then there's like everything is like a walk in the park, and then you're like, "Okay, it is what it is." So I think there's a…

32:00Jan Erik MaasWell…

32:00Jawad MirIt's, like, it's a double-edged sword, right?

32:02Jan Erik MaasOh, yeah. And to, you know, to his, to my dad's credit, he never tried to talk me out of what I wanted to do.

32:08Jawad MirYeah.

32:09Jan Erik MaasAnd I love him for it. I am deeply grateful, you know. He's always supported me to doing, you know, and to doing what I wanted to do. So there was never a question of, you know, he never sat me down and tried to, like, get me to enroll in, med school or something, right? And yeah, I mean, I can, I, you know, being a parent now with two kids is amazing, right? It's… And it changes your perspective completely. Like, you, I…

32:45Jan Erik Maas... You know, and I can already see how different my two daughters are and how… And they will go very different paths. I can tell right now, you know. They're just different. And I can't… You know, there's no way I'm gonna, like, try to mess with that. Yeah.

33:06Jawad MirYeah. No, it's, it's… And, you're gonna have another different perspective and about…

33:10Jan Erik MaasYeah

33:10Jawad Mir... You know, when they're te-teenagers. So it's, it's a constant growth and development.

33:15Jan Erik MaasOh, terrifying.

33:16Jawad MirYeah. Well, enjoy those years now because it is gonna get terrifying afterwards for sure. No, it's, it's, it has its, it has… It always gets worse, you think, but then every five years something else happens and you're like, "Oh, the previous five years were a lot better." So it's like an ever… You know, we're always ungrateful for what we have and we're always looking for something else.

33:38Jan Erik MaasFor sure. For sure.

33:40Jawad MirW-working with Mark and Guillermo…

33:43Jan Erik MaasYeah.

33:43Jawad MirI mean, you mostly…

33:44Jan Erik MaasYeah

33:44Jawad Mir... Worked with Mark obviously.

33:45Jan Erik MaasYeah. Yeah.

33:46Jawad MirBut just talk to me about that relationship and that experience, you know, whether it's pertaining to a certain story that you wanna share which would be nice if there is one, or just…

33:55Jan Erik MaasOh

33:56Jawad Mir... Overall, you know, general experience.

34:01Jan Erik MaasI mean, you know, it's been a while already that we were shooting. Well, I mean, yeah, g… this, it was, it was funny. Oh gosh, I can't remember. It's, it's, it's,.. Well, first of all, ah, lots of thoughts. Let me, let me try to get them in order.

34:29Jawad MirNo problem.

34:30Jan Erik MaasI think it was really… So you… Like this job, this shoot, this film was really unique I think because from, you know, how deeply Guillermo respects, you know, animation and especially I think stop motion. You know, his whole background with special effects and…

35:00Jan Erik Maas... Model making and stuff like that. So he, you could tell, you know, ju… I mean, I've watched a lot of his films. Not all, but, you know, quite a few. And you can tell that he really respects and a-appreciates the craft, you know, that goes into these things. And you could tell, like, when he walked around the studio he was like in a candy store. It was like he had such a good time, and he loved, clearly loved the artistry and that, you know, when you… And that went throughout the whole shoot. And I think, for, so us as animators, right, like we've, we've got a lot of insecurities. And if you, yeah, of course, you're like you're only as good as your sort of your last shot. And if you, if you know, but if somebody, one of your colleagues or even the director, you know, even better, says something nice about your last shot or whatever or, you know, you suddenly, you're like, "Whew."

36:00Jan Erik MaasYou're floating a m… two feet above the ground for a month, right? Just bec… Like, that's how fragile our egos are sometimes, you know. And you just get that little bit of important feedback and you feel great and you wanna work harder and you wanna give more and instead of So that's like, so if that's the best situation, right? Like where…

36:23Jawad MirSure

36:23Jan Erik Maas... You feel, you feel like you're bringing something to the table. I mean, you're being directed, right? Like there's a, there's a script you have to, you have a job to do, and you have to go from A to B with your characters, and there's certain things that the director wants. But, you always bring something to the, to the shot or to the thing. And if that gets appreciated, that's great. But that makes you feel like a million bucks. It's, it's, you know, again, acceptance, right? You wanna try harder. And that, and that feedback loop I feel the… Guillermo and Mark were, and also Brian, the supervisor, Brian Henson, he… they were all really good at keeping that going. At least for me, that was my experience on Pinocchio, and I think for most people. And, so, and you know, like you have a shoot, it's like you have a certain amount of time and money to do this film, and of course, you can't, take forever.

37:24Jan Erik MaasSo they, the director… so Guil… Pinocchio in that way was a really nice film to work on as well because it was sort of, it had limited resources, and in a way we had to get the stuff done, right? And so when, usually, you know, in the process you sort of, you get your shot briefed with the director, you do sort of like a block. You know, you sketch out a rough, version of the shot, and then boom, off you go. You animate it, right? That was the s… situation on Pinocchio in, you know, as you know, with stop motion is like once you get going, you can't go back. You can't go back and fix things, right?

38:09Jan Erik MaasSo stop motion in that way is very unique that you… there's a lot of trust needed from the director 'cause they just have to let you go for like days on end and then come back and see what you've done. And I mean, you know, with modern technology and, you, they can sort of do progress checks, right? Throughout maybe once a day or every couple of days they will come in to your set and you quickly show them where you, where you're at and what you've done. And, so there's a way for them to sort of maybe check a little bit, to maybe steer you in the if you're really going off track. But for most of it, they understand that they have to let you do your thing.

38:51Jan Erik MaasWhich is really special, you know, 'cause, 'cause you think about CG animation and 2D animation, anybody can go back months later and, excuse my language, like fuck with your shot, like mess with your animation, right? They can go back and tweak key frames. They can go back and do all kinds of stuff. They can give it to someone else. They can, you know, you can't do that in stop motion, like so there has to be this trust. And, you know, on the, on the end of course, there's also the nice thing that you as an animator, you have a lot of ownership of the final product.

39:24Jawad MirYeah.

39:24Jan Erik MaasWhich is special. It's really nice. And, but as I said, like so there's, there's, and there's no time or money to do a ton of reshoots, right? So they really, they're, as a director, they are in a spot where like, "Okay, we have to trust these animators. Like hopefully we've done enough to get them on the right path. Off they go," right? And we have to trust them and we kind of, unless it's a complete mess-up, we have to sort of buy what they give us at the end, right? So that, I think that makes for a really special relationship in a way.

40:13Jan Erik MaasAnd, it's, that's, that was really nice at, on Pinocchio.

40:21Jawad MirYeah.

40:21Jan Erik MaasThere are other jobs I've worked on where you're constantly in fear of, you know, criticism, of you get micromanaged. You get, you have to do rehearsal. You don't have to do more than just block shoot. You have to sort of block it, rehearse it, rehearse it again. Then do it exactly like you did with a couple of very specific changes, and it becomes, it sort of get, gets managed to death, right? And it loses some of that energy and you just…

40:54Jawad MirInnocence.

40:57Jan Erik MaasSorry?

40:58Jawad MirNo, sorry, go on.

40:59Jan Erik MaasNo, I'm, so I think in that way it was, it was, and I think, at least for me, it felt like Guillermo understood this process. Mark very well understood the process 'cause he was an animator himself. He worked on, you know, comes from stop motion. So they were the right people to lead the film, I think.

41:23Jawad MirYeah. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think I would love for you to talk about, you know, I know how stop motion, the rigs and all that stuff works, but just to talk about a bit about in depth because, you know, there's so many incredible stop motion films. I mean, I've seen all Wallace & Gromits. I've seen…

41:40Jan Erik MaasYeah

41:40Jawad Mir... Chicken Run.

41:41Jan Erik MaasYeah.

41:42Jawad MirWhich is, which was the very first, I think, stop motion that I ever saw, I think. No, I saw Nightmare Before Christmas before that. And, but I didn't know it was stop motion. I didn't understand the complexities of it. You know, there's Corpse Bride, there's

41:56Jan Erik MaasYeah

41:56Jawad Mir... There's so many of them. C… Caroline, James and the Giant Peach. If you can talk about h… just for an audience, dumbed down audience…

42:04Jan Erik MaasYeah

42:04Jawad Mir... Who doesn't know what goes involved.

42:07Jan Erik MaasOf course.

42:07Jawad MirYou know, just and generically talk about that'd be really cool.

42:12Jan Erik MaasSo yeah. So with stop motion, You, it, we also often call it, like, straight ahead animation. And it is because you take one picture, you move an object, you take another picture, you move it physically, you know, by hand. It could be a puppet. It could also be cutouts on a piece of glass with a camera looking down on it, right? It could be, there's all these different ways to do it. But the thing is that you sort of go, you create the motion l… in a linear way. And it's as opposed to, with drawn animation or computer animation where you, where you sort of make a start drawing and an end drawing, and then you fill in all the things in between. And you sort of, that's how you create the motion. It's still the same principles of creating movement because it's the difference between the individual pictures that make you feel things move a certain way, fast or slow or, you know.

43:13Jan Erik MaasBut in stop motion, you go straight ahead. You start with frame one, you go to s… frame two, you move it a little more, you go to frame three, blah, and so on. And that's how you sort of create your animation. And of course, it gets really complicated when you have, when you go very realistic, naturalistic. And, then, you know, things like clothing can make things really complicated 'cause it has to flow in the right way. You have hair, for example. You could have, God forbid, multiple characters or crowd scenes where, you know, you sometimes have 10, 15, 20 characters in one shot that you all have to, move one thing at a time, but all at the same time. And you still have to keep track of, where they came from, where they're going, you know. And you still have to make that one character feel, look really sad or angry, and y… the other char… you know.

44:13Jan Erik MaasAnd then you have, it gets complicated when you, physical interaction. You know, shoving, pushing, objects interacting physically with each other. It can get super complicated. And luckily we have, you know, computers that can help us record what we've done, and you can play it back, and so you can, when I'm animating straight ahead, I always sort of have this sort of little play button, and I can see blah up till the live frame where I am right now all the frames before. So I can see the motion, I can feel the acting, and I can listen to the soundtrack of the voice recording, for example, if it's, if it's a dialogue scene. And it is, it, so when you're animating that way straight ahead, it comes, it's very, it's like the closest thing in animation to a live performance I would say.

45:01Jawad MirYeah.

45:01Jan Erik MaasAnd as we talked about it before, you have to sort of feel it yourself. You have to sort of listen to the voices, get the tonality right and emotionally, feel it. And then, you know, you poop, y… you post the puppet, or you make the animation so it expresses that. And it's very hard. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done.

45:27Jawad MirYeah.

45:28Jan Erik MaasIt's…

45:28Jawad MirI think, you know, honestly, like for me, stop motion, when I truly appreciated the most was, Wallace & Gromit. There was a short… ... I think, The Wrong Trousers. A… a… and the char… the c… character Feathers McGraw, the grand evil villain of all time, right?

45:46Jan Erik MaasYeah.

45:46Jawad MirAnd the scene where the train tracks when, are being put together as a train is moving, like, in such fast speed. To be able to visualize that, how the heck that was done frame by frame. I mean, to me, not to take away anything from any other film, there are some great sequences, but that to me got resonated with me more than anything else, that how much in time and effort and patience is involved in creating…

46:12Jan Erik MaasYeah

46:12Jawad Mir... Something like that. So it is, and you know, kudos to you.

46:15Jan Erik MaasI love that scene. Yeah.

46:17Jawad MirYeah. Kudos to you guys that you guys do that because it's ridiculous amount of patience. I mean…

46:22Jan Erik MaasYeah

46:22Jawad Mir... I think more than live action for sure.

46:25Jan Erik MaasWell, it's, it's funny you use the word patience. I mean, yeah, it's, it's a very weird, sometimes I have to pinch myself and think like, "Oh, you know, I've got a really strange job." You know, it's a really weird thing that we're trying to do here. But, you know, again, story is the most important aspect of it all, right? Like, the, if it is a story that resonates with, you know, your audience in the end,.. Ah, man, I lost my thought.

46:58Jawad MirNo, that's fine. You were talking about, pinching yourself that…

47:02Jan Erik MaasYeah

47:02Jawad Mir... You know.

47:04Jan Erik MaasNo, still haven't got it.

47:09Jawad MirThat's okay.

47:09Jan Erik MaasPinching me. Pinching me to,.. No, go back one more time. Ah, what was it?

47:23Jawad MirIt's okay. We can come back to it later.

47:25Jan Erik MaasYeah. And…

47:26Jawad MirI love that your camera keeps moving and following you.

47:30Jan Erik MaasIt does?

47:32Jawad MirYeah, it does. It keeps moving. Every time you tilt this way, your camera shifts, and then there we go.

47:37Jan Erik MaasWow.

47:37Jawad MirIt just moved again.

47:39Jan Erik MaasWow. I

47:40Jawad MirYou didn't notice that before?

47:42Jan Erik MaasNo. I wasn't, no.

47:46Jawad MirSo, you know, just to sort of…

47:50Jan Erik MaasOh

47:50Jawad MirYeah, go ahead.

47:52Jan Erik MaasAlmost got it. No, you ask. Sorry.

47:56Jawad MirI was just gonna sort of wrap things up, more so on the point of, well, I guess two questions. What is the one thing that you learned about yourself at the end of this film? Whatever that is. It could be something…

48:11Jawad Mir... Deep. It could be something silly. And also what's on the plate next, unless you have an NDA that you've signed.

48:22Jan Erik MaasNo. Well, in I have to say where I was, I really came out of Pinocchio thinking like re… reaffirmed in like this work, right, in this job and I'm like, damn, I love animation, right? Like, this is really cool. This is, this is where I wanted to be. And then, also mostly because this was... So for me, like career-wise, right, like this was sort of the most fun I've had on a film, the most…

49:01Jawad MirSure

49:01Jan Erik Maas... And the most responsibility and I feel like recognition in terms of what, you know, like you, in terms of what I was given, the responsibility I was given in the, in the film, you know, with the sequences I got to animate and, I think I was also the first time definitely more one of the more experi… one of the most experienced animators on a film, which changes things also. You know, like you, yeah, you're getting probably given the more difficult or crucial shots maybe, and maybe you get, yeah, you know. And that was a lot of weight, but also feels good. You know, feels nice to be given that, to be trusted with that.

49:58Jawad MirSure.

49:58Jan Erik MaasAnd before then, you know, a lot of the, my experiences at Laika had been sort of different. And, so this was, yeah, this was really reaffirming that like, yeah, this, I love this job and I love this, you know, this is, this is amazing. And then right after, we finished Pinocchio, sort of the, you know, through COVID and everything, you know, we were on a total high and, you know, we won all, won kind of everything that was to win in terms of awards and stuff. And but then like sort of work sort of the bottom fell out of the animation industry and still is trying to get back on its legs, right? Like, I've been basically unemployed for almost a year. Little bits and bobs here, you know, but I…

50:50Jawad MirYeah

50:51Jan Erik MaasRight now, again, I'm, I'm rethinking my career or it's just like really hard right now.

50:59Jawad MirYeah.

51:01Jan Erik MaasBut there's good stuff. So there's good stuff in the future, in the very near future. Hopefully, Guillermo is gonna, looks like he's really gonna make, another one, another film here in Portland. I mean, you've probably heard a little bit about it. They are…

51:21Jawad MirNo.

51:21Jan Erik MaasOh, okay. So I mean, I think I can say, so it's a, it's, he's doing the, it's called The Buried Giant by Ishiguro. What's his name? Kazuo Ishiguro. The, I think it got a Pulitzer Prize. Let me just look it up real quick. It's a definitely a grownup

51:49Jawad MirThe Buried Giant?

51:49Jan Erik MaasFilm. Buried Giant, Kazuo Ishiguro. Yeah. ... And which is, by the way, a great book. I recommend listening to it. It's really beautiful. His prose, the language is really beau… really nice. That is in development right now at ShadowMachine and, early testing. So hopefully I'm gonna be involved with that a little bit. And then…

52:25Jawad MirNice

52:25Jan Erik MaasYeah. So it's, it's, it's really, I mean, really excited about that to get involved in it this early on, you know. It's, it's probably not going to start actually, shooting until like the fall or something. You know, it's…

52:37Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

52:37Jan Erik Maas... Takes, it takes a long time to get these things ready. But I've seen the, some of the early puppets that they've built for it, and it's amazing. It is like…

52:51Jawad MirNice

52:51Jan Erik Maas... The next, the next level of, mecha… So a lot of, well, we haven't really talked about the, all the technicalities, you know, how Pinocchio was 3D printed and, you know, but some of the characters were mechanical heads, and silicone skin and stuff like that. But so this, the new puppets for The Buried Giant are going to be mostly head mechanics and, they're the next level. I've never seen, never seen anything like it. So I'm really excited about getting my hands on one of those and, yeah, it's gonna be something else I think. So very excited about that.

53:35Jawad MirThat's good.

53:37Jan Erik MaasYeah. Yeah. But it is, you know, a long way off. And…

53:41Jawad MirBut, you know, you talked, we talked about, we didn't talk about some of the technical, the mechanical heads. If you wanna talk about, we've got five minutes right now. If you wanna talk about that'd be really cool to know.

53:50Jan Erik MaasOkay. Sure. Well, the other thing that's, well, just to wrap up what I was doing, I'm actually writing a book right now on animation, that is, it's very technical. It's just a how-to book. It's like tutorials…

54:06Jan Erik Maas... On walking. But I have a publisher and I'm, they wanna publish it once, o… once I've got it done. So I've, so I'm, I'm working on that right now, and, while I'm sort of unemployed and do a lot of at home kids stuff. So yeah, that's, hopefully I've got until the summer or so to finish that and that's It's taking way too long and sucking up all my energy right now, but it's, it's, it's gonna be good. So go back on the, on the, mechanical heads. So, you know, you just watched the film, right? Like, so do you remember... Well, you can kind of see, right, so the Pinocchio's face was all replacements, you know…

54:54Jan Erik Maas... Replacement animations, and it sort of pops. And the way it moves, eh, that was... And it was perfect for that character 'cause he's like, you know, carved out of wood. You know, it's g… it has that... It was s… the, it was such a perfect technique for that character. And then, Geppetto as a, in contrast, he has, a silicon face. And, so the mouth is moved with a little jaw with a ball joint and, you know, and you can crank a little screw in the back of his head to open and close the jaw, and then he has little, tiny little joints in, c… cast into the silicon of his lips below and above. And then, so when he talks, that silicon sort of gets pushed around, right? And as an animator, the animating the mechanical heads is always, it's quite different to replacements because the replacements, sure, you can choose which ones you put on when, but once they're on, you can't move them.

56:02Jan Erik MaasAnd, with the silicon, the mechanical heads, you get a very organic... 'Cause you can, "Ah, no," you know, you're just looking at your frame and you think, "Ah, no, I wanna push that smile a little bit more," you know?

56:13Jawad MirRight.

56:13Jan Erik MaasAnd you can, or you can try if the mechanics in the head can do it, right? And sometimes you have to go tension them a little more and you need to just get that little bit of extra squish and, you know. But the beauty with Geppetto was, you... So he has a giant mustache and some of the paddles, the joints in there, you could, you could get in there with your tool and you could push it up just enough to sort of get the, you know, the sort of fleshy bit under your eyes, the cheeks when you smile, for example, they push up a little bit. And you could, if you did it right, you could sort of get that movement out of the silicon, you know. And those are... And if you look, if you go back and look at the animation again, then, it lends, it makes these silicon puppets always look more organic than replacement.

57:16Jawad MirAnd…

57:16Jan Erik MaasIf you look at…

57:17Jawad Mir... That's, so sorry to interrupt you just briefly, if you don't mind.

57:20Jan Erik MaasYeah.

57:20Jawad MirThat's one of the things that I noticed about the animation, the stop motion animation of Pinocchio, was it was very different from your typical stop motion animation that I've seen in the past. It was, I mean, first I thought it was, there were a lot of computer elements like, you know, computer animation that kind of enhanced it, but then I saw the BTS and I was like, "No." So just to kind of put that out there…

57:39Jan Erik MaasYeah

57:39Jawad Mir... While I talk about it.

57:40Jan Erik MaasYeah, I mean, it, so one spectrum you have sort of Laika who 3D print every face, or use now they do, or a lot of the time. I mean, there were some exceptions, but, and they literally pre-animate the performances, dial it completely in before you even launch. They print those faces, they give those to the animators, and then you sort of go. And you have, you have very little room to maneuver, very little, you know, kind of locked in, right?

58:14Jawad MirRight.

58:14Jan Erik Maas'Cause you have to use those faces. You can maybe change the timing a little bit or, you know, but that's, that's sort of it. And, when you, again, you have the mechanical heads, you, I think you, it lends itself to more sp… spontaneity and moments that aren't preplanned, which often are the nuggets, you know, the good, the good bits often come…

58:38Jawad MirYeah

58:39Jan Erik Maas... Come.

58:39Jawad MirYeah.

58:39Jan Erik MaasIt goes back to that, to that live performance element of it, I think. At least for me personally, it's, it's way more enjoyable to animate the mechanical heads than the replacement ones.

58:54Jawad MirYeah.

58:55Jan Erik MaasYeah.

58:56Jawad MirThat's cool, man. That's really cool. And, you know, to kind of go back a little bit on your book, I am really glad that you're working on a book because when you work on something that you pass on to others, there's just some special meaning behind it.

59:10Jawad MirAnd obviously it keeps you occupied too, right?

59:12Jan Erik MaasYeah.

59:12Jawad MirAnd it's another source of, another source of probably small percentage of income, not nothing, you know, bestseller type, which I hope it does.

59:20Jan Erik MaasWell, that'd be great, but like, no, it's, it's a very small audience, right? It's, it's just…

59:24Jawad MirYeah

59:24Jan Erik Maas... Targeted for, it's just about walks. It's, it's really very technical. It's, you know, for animators, you know.

59:31Jawad MirYeah.

59:31Jan Erik MaasNot just stop motion animators. I mean, animators in general, hopefully, but it is, it's, it's a very small market. But I, and I'm not gonna get rich doing it. I'm, I'm…

59:40Jawad MirYeah

59:40Jan Erik Maas... I'm gonna pass something on. And when you're teaching, obviously you have to rethink what you're actually doing, and that's the fun part of it, right? Like, I have to rethink, like, why am I, what is actually, why am I doing it this way, you know? And, or why... So I'm learning a ton. It's, it's really, it's really good. It's really great. It's just a lot of work and, right now, well, the best thing I think would be that it would open some doors, you know, create new connections for me or…

1:00:10Jawad MirDude, that's exactly what we all do is all about. I mean, I won't lie, one of the r… it was never the reason that I started this podcast, but it sort of has helped me open so many doors and connections.

1:00:24Jan Erik MaasI bet. Yeah.

1:00:25Jawad MirIt's, it's in, it's, it's insane, like 282 episodes and I have made some…

1:00:28Jan Erik MaasWow

1:00:29Jawad Mir... Incredible connections with some incredible people and, Has it landed me any work? It almost did. It didn't. No intention, just kind of happened. But yeah, those things make a big impact in the long run, for sure.

1:00:45Jan Erik MaasYeah. Yeah, no, it's been really fun. And I will, I will keep listening to it and check out your work.

1:00:52Jawad MirThanks, man. But you know what, you were talking about, young animators. I was at Lightbox.

1:00:57Jan Erik MaasOh, yeah.

1:00:57Jawad MirThat's where I met, that's where I met Anthony. So I was with, you know Carlos? Who... What's his last name? Ha, you know him. He worked on Corpse Bride.

1:01:09Jan Erik MaasCarlos…

1:01:12Jawad MirCarlos…

1:01:12Jan Erik MaasSpanish or Portuguese?

1:01:13Jawad MirYeah. Portuguese.

1:01:15Jan Erik MaasOh, yeah.

1:01:16Jawad MirCarlos Grangel. Grangel, so, yeah. So I, so I have had him on few times on the podcast.

1:01:24Jan Erik MaasCool.

1:01:24Jawad MirAnd then I've had Lorna Cook, who directed Spirit: Stallion of Cimarron, which I'm not sure if you have seen. It's one of my favorite films.

1:01:30Jan Erik MaasNo, I do. I have seen it, yeah.

1:01:32Jawad MirSo…

1:01:32Jan Erik MaasI've done a lot of horse related. I had to do a lot of horse animation, so I definitely checked out that one.

1:01:38Jawad MirSo we ended up getting together in LA last time when Lightbox happened, and we went to this ranch where the horse that they had, which was actually bought from a farm in Portland, it was flown over to DreamWorks Animation, and they had the DreamWorks studio for three years, and they used that as a reference to draw.

1:01:58Jan Erik MaasYeah.

1:01:58Jawad MirAnd that horse was sold to this ranch, and we went to see it.

1:02:02Jan Erik MaasOh, man.

1:02:02Jawad MirAnd we saw the actual horse. It literally looked identical. And then I met Anthony and a bunch of other peoples, also Ian, at Light… at Lightbox, and then I saw so many young animators. Like, ridiculous…

1:02:15Jan Erik MaasYeah

1:02:15Jawad Mir... Amount of young animators.

1:02:16Jan Erik MaasWow.

1:02:16Jawad MirSo I'm like, "There's your audience for the book. Just go to Lightbox."

1:02:19Jan Erik MaasThere you go. Yeah. I, and funny you mention horses. I mean, like, part of this book is, right, it's, one part is human walks, the other one is quadrupeds, and I've been, like... So I did all the horse animation, most of it, in, Missing Link. I don't know if you saw Missing Link, the Laika.

1:02:34Jawad MirYeah. I have.

1:02:36Jan Erik MaasAnd that's when I was first like, "Okay, I've gotta wrap my head around this quadruped motion thing," and it was a lot of fun. I mean, hard, super hard work, but it was great. And, on, the, this, you know, the Sphinx character in Pinocchio that luckily, first in, like, early on in the film, she was supposed to do a ton of walking, you know? And I thought first that I was gonna be the one do, to do this because of my background with the horse stuff on Missing Link. But, yeah, I, part of, part of all my research now on the book is stuff like I actually went out and filmed a horse with, like, three cameras. Had to try to get it to walk in a straight line, and so I get, like, back, front, side view, and it's all gonna be part of this thing.

1:03:25Jawad MirNice.

1:03:25Jan Erik MaasBut so I would have loved to go there and meet that horse. It would've been really fun. Yeah, I agree.

1:03:31Jawad MirGreat, man.

1:03:32Jan Erik MaasThanks so much.

1:03:32Jawad MirThank you so much, buddy, for your time. Yes.