The Making of 'Gladiator 2', Author & Filmmaker, John Walsh

0:00Jawad MirIt's not necessarily a film that people like. It's the experience and the certain age that they were in that the movie theater experience, who they were with, how, what stage of emotions they are in their own life and how that ties to the film. And I think that speaks more volumes than anything else.

0:19John WalshI just wanted to make sure the full story was there for everyone to see so that we could all agree what it was. So I included this chapter called The Road to Rome, which covers the last twenty-five years and the what-ifs and the what could have beens and the who was involved and the kind of really crazy storylines of bringing Russell Crowe back as either immortal or as a ghost or as both and having him walk through all of the wars of history. And I'm thinking, yep, I wanna see that film as well. And so I would like to have seen all of those crazy versions of Gladiator that didn't happen, and maybe one day that'll happen. But I think it's kind of important for people to think Ridley didn't just wake up twenty-five l… years later and think, "Oh, can't think of what to do. Let's do Gladiator 2."

1:06Jawad MirWelcome back everyone to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast, The Making of Stories. I'm your host Jawad Mir. My apologies for not being here last week for a couple of episodes. It's just that we had some episodes scheduled and the guests that were going to be on the podcast had to reschedule for another month. So that's why a little delay. But anyways, we're back. Today I have a guest author, a filmmaker, John Walsh, who wrote a book last year called Gladiator 2: The Art and the Making of Ridley Scott Film. Here's the book. He was courteous enough to send me a copy. We talk about the book. We talk about what's in there. A lot of great stuff, a lot of great images that I've shown on the YouTube version of this podcast. So if you're on Spotify or Apple, do check it out. Wonderful conversation, exciting guy to talk to. He's got a bunch of other books that he's written, which I'm gonna have him on later this summer, as well as an upcoming book in fall. So without further ado, here's my conversation with author and filmmaker John Walsh. Tell me the story about how you first got onto this book.

2:06John WalshWell, it's fascinating because I'm a filmmaker by trade, and, being an author, I kind of... I became an accidental author in sort of twenty eighteen, just before lockdown. Then lockdown happened, and, there wasn't much else to do except write books. So I ended up writing. And this book, Gladiator 2, is my, eighth book, and my ninth one is coming out in September. So I basically spoke to Titan Books. I'd put together a book written by the brilliant Richard Hollis called Harryhausen: The Movie Posters, 'cause I always felt that,.. I'm a trustee of the Ray and Diana Harryhausen Foundation, and, Ray Harryhausen, of course, made all those classic, creature features.

2:48Jawad MirYes.

2:48John WalshClash of the Titans, Jason and the Argonauts, The Valley of Gwangi, One Million Years BC. A lot of people say to me, "I don't know who Ray Harryhausen is." And I name the films, and they're like, "Oh, I do know who Ray Harryhausen is." I'm like, "Yes, you do." He's, he's sort of invaded our childhoods and your parents will know him as well, of course, because his films go back that many years. So we did this fa… fabulous book, The Movie Posters, and Richard Hollis wrote that. Then I was speaking to Titan Books about doing something else, another Harryhausen book, and I mentioned how there were so many unmade film projects, just as a, an almost an anecdote. And then it became apparent that there really was a, there was a book in this, the unmade films of Ray Harryhausen, and there was about eighty projects, eight zero projects he was involved with that didn't see the light of day. And in the films he did make, so in Clash of the Titans, Jason and the Argonauts, The Golden Voyage of Sinbad, there were scenes that he wasn't able to have completed for budgetary reasons perhaps, or for taste and decency reasons because of the censors wouldn't allow it.

3:51John WalshAnd so that's really how I got into writing the first book. Lockdown happened then the following year, and I was having an ongoing dialogue with the publisher. And, I said to them, "Oh, do you know this year, twenty, is the anniversary of Flash Gordon?" They were like, "Yes." And I said, "Well, there needs to be a book." And they were like, "Yes." I said, "Can I do the book?" And they were like, "No." there was a rights issue. The rights for the character and the film and to do a book were in three different places. And I said, "Oh, but you want to do a book?" And they were like, "Yes." I said, "Well, if I get the rights and everyone around the table to agree, can I do the book?" And they were like, "Yeah, sure, if you think you can do that." So because I have, connections in film and television, I was able to ask, some people at Kleinberg Leng, who are the agents that represent Ray Harryhausen, and they helped me get some of the people around the table I needed. Studio Canal owns the UK rights to the film, or the world ri… rights to the film. The Hearst empire, through King Features owns the comic strip character, and Universal Pictures had a, had an input as well.

4:58John WalshSo we got them to agree, and I wrote that as my first movie making of book, Flash Gordon: The Official Story of the Film. And then the other books followed. It was,.. Now I'm gonna have to try and remember. They're on the wall behind me. It was Escape From New York. Then it was Doctor Who and the Daleks, the Peter Cushing films.

5:15Jawad MirConan the Barbarian.

5:16John WalshConan the Barbarian. Conan, that's it, you spotted it, yeah.

5:18Jawad MirYeah.

5:18John WalshAnd, you could be my Phone a Friend, you see, on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? What books did John Walsh write in which order? Then it was The Wicker Man, then it was The Third Man, then it was Gladiator 2. Different publisher. So you're always a bit anxious when you're going to... When you do a lot with a broadcaster or a studio and suddenly you're somewhere else because you don't have to tell anyone, and in some cases, as with Gladiator 2, you can't because you've signed a really strict NDA.

5:45Jawad MirYeah.

5:45John WalshSo I was off working for someone else, on someone else's dance card, if you will. And, it gets found out when the book kind of announced when it's all finished. So that was kind of exciting. But it had been through referrals, through, the books I'd written before and a previous commissioning editor, Simon Ward, who sort of recommended me through to Ridley Scott, Paramount, and Abrams Books. And of course, they checked out my other books and wanted to see if I was up to the job. And of course I was because I said I was, and we just did it. So I had a no fear thing in those days two years ago. I would just sort of…

6:23Jawad MirYeah

6:24John Walsh... Jump in and say, "Yes, let's do it."

6:26Jawad MirThat's awesome. One of the things that you and I both share, I mean, you kinda went into books, and I do this podcast, but I'm also a film director myself, and the… I think that is very important in what you do, having that kind of background. Not to take away anything from anybody else who doesn't have that background, but just adds a lot more layers and a lot more, you know, for the lack of better word, texture to the work that you do because you have got all this context. And even, you know, if anybody has made one film or two film or 20 films, yes, the experience varies, but you still understand what goes on behind making the film, the process of it, and you are able to implement that properly in this book and many other books that you have written.

7:11John WalshExactly, yes. Thank you for noticing that. Yeah, I came from the film school generation that shot on film. We'd have to go to a negative cutter to do neg cutting, exactly…

7:20Jawad MirYeah

7:20John Walsh... And track laying and so on. And of course, you speak to younger people now today, and you tell them what a mechanical, backbreaking sort of Clockwork Orange of a position it was to be in to do that, and they're like, they're glad that they're digital. I'm glad that I grew up in the tail end of the photochemical world for filmmaking, and you know, I've made some films for film and television on 35 millimeter and 16, and it does future protect what you're doing because, it's a natural high-definition format, 16 and 35 millimeter. So when I speak to movie folk, I can kind of speak to them on a level where I understand the pressures. It's a bit like a developer who builds houses, you know? They'll, they'll know which trades to get in at which time, when you need the carpenter and the plumbers and so on. In filmmaking, as you'll know, it's, it's, there are different questions to ask at different times, and something going wrong in one department affects another. And so you can kind of bring them together and ask those questions. And that's what this really was, you know? A live… this is the first time I've written a book about a live production that was still growing and was still breathing at the time I was writing the book.

8:27John WalshSo unlike any of the others, which had all of their challenges because they were old, the material maybe didn't exist, it was hard to find the photos, and many of the people who'd worked on it had either forgotten or were no longer with us, their memories. So this was, this was very different. It was thousands and thousands of images for this book, which, unlike my next book, which this is the highest budget film I've ever covered for Gladiator II. My next one is the lowest budget film…... Possibly ever made, that's also fabulously successful, but we have some really shockingly good pictures that have never been seen before for that one too.

9:06Jawad MirThat's awesome. You know, you talked about Gladiator as well. I had, the pleasure of having set decorator Sonja Klaus, who worked on the original Gladiator, and she's worked with Ridley for the last 20 years, like, you know, on Prometheus, American Gangster, and I think The Good Year and a bunch of other films. And to hear her stories, w… I mean, she's a fun person to talk to and very articulate, and to hear her stories and the amount of work that goes into any film, let alone a film like this, Gladiator 1 and 2. No matter how much you conceptualize what mammoth type of production and how hard work must have been, it… you can never live up to it. Like, even when I was going through this book, like, these sketches and a lot of the stuff that I saw, the behind-the-scenes photos, I thought they were actual CGI. I mean, there was a lot of CGI, but a lot of the stuff was actually built, and that makes you really...

10:07Jawad MirI mean, I was, I'll be very honest, I wasn't really crazy about Gladiator II. I think it could've been a little bit better, a little bit tighter, just like the original one. But just the production value o… of this film, and you showcase that in this book, which is, and then the write-up around that, which is awesome.

10:24John WalshYes, no, it's, it's, a lot of people thought that maybe everything was CG this time, and of course, as you rightly say, CG was used to extend sets. But it is really surprising how much stuff was built full scale practical, and it really was just the tops of buildings and skylines and so on. And of course, maybe flooding the Colosseum with digital water. But there was lots that Ridley wanted to do in the first film, such as the baboon fight, that couldn't happen, and there was talks of floating, or flooding the Colosseum. But it just wasn't possible with the technology at the time in, 25 years ago for the original Gladiator. But it is interesting the comment you make there. I remember the original Gladiator, and I saw it in the cinema when it came out. It was part of the awards corridor, and I thought it was a really cracking good film. You know, Richard Harris, the wonderful score, Hans Zimmer, which I always playing on a loop all the time. Of course, brilliant Russell Crowe and everything else. Yeah, we all play that, we all know that music, you know? And, so you'd always be anxious or nervous when there's another film coming out, particularly so many years later.

11:25John WalshBut interestingly, for younger people that I know who've seen my book and have followed my other books and have seen Gladiator II first before Gladiator the original, if we can call it that, the younger people are telling me they prefer Gladiator II, so…

11:41Jawad MirReally?

11:42John WalshSo comments below now in the video so people can comment and tell us what a terrible f… what a terrible lie I'm telling. But no, people have told me that, and I, and I know when I've spoken to others about it, the same thing happens with, the Star Wars prequels, so Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith. If younger people have seen those and that's their first experience of Star Wars, when you show them then New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi, they're like, "Yeah, but I prefer The Phantom Menace." And I'm not suggesting, by the way, that Gladiator II is The Phantom Menace. It's not.

12:18Jawad MirYeah.

12:19John WalshIt's a, I, by all accounts, and by my account, it's a top movie, not just because I've written this book. I really think it is a top movie, and it was the Best Picture of… 2025 when it came out. Or was it 2024? I think…

12:34Jawad MirFour. Four. Four

12:35John WalshYeah, 2024. Yeah. And I think it really should've been nominated for Best Picture. And I was, I was somewhat surprised that it wasn't. I think it was just, Janty Yates in costume who'd got a nod…

12:47Jawad MirYeah

12:47John Walsh... Towards it. But, I think it deserved much more credit than it received. And there is talk of a Gladiator III.

12:53Jawad MirYeah. To your, to your comment about the young people appreciating this, I always believe, and I've had this discussion with a few other people on this podcast, is that it's not necessarily a film that people like, it's the experience and the certain age that they were in, that the movie theater experience, who they were with, how, what stage of emotions they are in their own life and how that ties to the film, and I think that speaks more volumes than anything else. And I also think Gladiator, the original one takes, I mean, even though it has an amazing battle scene in the beginning, it has a slow pace compared to the second one, right? And this generation is more about, you know, I wouldn't even say this generation, I would even say we have kinda become like that, and I try to sort of avoid falling into that trap. But talking about Gladiator III, yes, I read about Ridley Scott wanting to do Gladiator III when he planned, I think when the second one came out, to kinda like make it like a trilogy of how, you know, kinda following Godfather trilogy footsteps and whatnot.

13:55Jawad MirSo that'd be ex… I'll still watch it. I mean, you know, I won't lie. Gladiator II, I think in my view, for me, Denzel Washington character was the best, right? And I wish, I just wish, and this is just me being an audience member, they had spent more time on Denzel's character and maybe taken out one or two characters out. I don't know which ones, I'm not a writer for that film, but it was still entertaining, but not lived up to the first one.

14:25John WalshIt's difficult, isn't it? Because w… what beats do you want to carry over from the first film, and it's 25 years later and your audience has moved on, and the people who have seen it are 25 years older. It's, it's tricky, isn't it? How do you bring people with you? And the Marvel universe kind of really exploded with all those wonderful films in the interim, so cinema changed. COVID shut down the cinema experience for many people. Many people haven't returned. Now cinema is a streaming experience for most. So it really is, it was quite brave really that they did another Gladiator on this scale. Hugely expensive. Of course it jumped studios. It was originally with, DreamWorks and Universal, and now it's with Paramount Pictures.

15:06Jawad MirYeah.

15:07John WalshAnd, it's, it was surprising. There's a section in the book called "The Road to Rome" where I cover, and I wasn't, I wasn't asked to do this, but I kind of did it as part of my, it's, it's not necessarily an OCD thing, but I just wanted to make sure the full story was there for everyone to see so that we could all agree what it was. And then if they wanted to cut it, they could. So I included this chapter called "The Road to Rome"…

15:31Jawad MirYeah

15:31John Walsh... Which covers the last 25 years and the what-ifs and the what could have beens and the who was involved, and the kinda really crazy storylines of bringing Russell Crowe back as either immortal or as a ghost or as both, and having him walk through all of the wars of history. And I'm thinking, "Yep, I wanna see that film as well." And so I would like to have seen all of those crazy versions of Gladiator that didn't happen, and maybe one day that'll happen. But I think it's kind of important for people to think Ridley didn't just wake up 25 l… years later and think, "Oh, can't think of what to do. Let's do Gladiator II." So there really…

16:03Jawad MirYeah

16:03John Walsh... Was a long and thoughtful process about what's best and how can we do it and who should we include. So it's, it's, for the third film it's gonna be a bit more straightforward. It'll be Paul Mescal's character. He has Rome now at his feet, and he's gonna inherit Izzi, the whole thing, without any kerfuffle. So that will potentially be the third film, the setup for it right at the end of film two. And from a practical point of view, the sets are built and, you know, I think they want to, they want to sort of get on with it. I've said I'll do the third book, Gladiator III, so I'll, I'll just wear…

16:39Jawad MirGood

16:39John Walsh... Lots of Factor 50 and a big kinda foil hat, and I'll follow them round in Morocco and Malta and anywhere else.... So it's, you know, it's, it's interestingly, because I have my own sort of little fan base as well, people who've bought my other books, particularly the sort of The Third Man over here, this one…

16:58John Walsh... Which is at 75 years old, many people who bought that hadn't seen the film, but they had bought my other books and found these stories quite interesting of what goes wrong and how things turn out. So people were buying my book even before they'd seen the film, which was quite gratifying actually.

17:16Jawad MirThat's awesome. That's really lovely, man. Must be really, like you said, the word gratifying. And Ridley Scott has been talking about Gladiator II, to my knowledge at least when I read it, I think about 12 years ago I read it somewhere, and then I had John Logan, I think it was like the episode in the, one of the first 10 episodes of this podcast, who was one of the writers on Gladiator, the very first one, and he even talked about it at the time when I think it was 2022 and whatnot. So yeah, no, listen, I still like Gladiator II for a lot of reasons, and it has a lot of similarities with the first one in some ways, but good similarities. Now, let's go to the actual book. How, I'm assuming you were in Morocco or in, on the sets most of the time or some of the time talking to the people behind the film and visualizing. Was that the case?

18:11John WalshNo, what actually happened…

18:13Jawad MirNo

18:13John Walsh... No. So what actually happened was they supplied me with some interviews that were done on location…

18:18Jawad MirOkay

18:18John Walsh... 'cause the film had been broken into two because of the various strikes, the writers and actors strikes that had gone on.

18:23Jawad MirRight.

18:24John WalshThey supplied me with some interviews I was able to use, and I was able to follow up then on all of those and interview people separately. So it was kind of last minute they decided to do the book because the film was turning out really well. Paramount wanted something that was gonna be landmark for the book, so th… I was asked, I was asked quite late actually, so it was al… it was all a bit of a scramble to get it, get it all together. But, it was good because we got to speak to everyone, and there was even people that they'd forgotten to speak to that I spoke to in terms of the visual effects for Industrial Light & Magic and so on. So everyone was made available, so which was, which was great because that's not always the case. But unlike the other books, where things have gone very badly wrong, such as on Flash Gordon or on Conan the Barbarian, those stories are available to me to talk about and go back and speak to directors and actors and so on. That's not the case here because there are no stories that have come out talking about how difficult things were or how things went badly wrong.

19:25John WalshThere's the challenge of making the film, which is like pushing a boulder up a mountain. That's always present. But those other really interesting stories, in The Wicker Man, there's the story of Christopher Lee, who was one of the stars of the film, saying that the distributors hated the film so much that they cut half an hour out and burned it so that it could never be replaced, and that wasn't true, you know? And those stories we could kind of go back and unravel.

19:50Jawad MirYeah.

19:50John WalshThere's been nothing like that for Gladiator too, and of course, in terms of the script and the photos, I had to view everything on a secure server, so I wasn't able to sort of have what I'd like to have, which is everything just around me fully PDF-ed and everything so I could look at it. So the film was nearly a year from being released when I got access to all the materials. I was like, "this is good."... E… even after signing all of the NDAs, they did say to me, "Don't post anything online." I'm like, "I've read the NDA. Of course I'm not gonna post anything online." s… and I wasn't tempted to, but it would've been great if I'd done it. But…

20:31Jawad MirRight

20:31John Walsh... Unlike other making of books where, I think it happened on the last Star Wars film, The Rise of Skywalker, I think they weren't able to include details that the Emperor returns in the last Star Wars film.

20:46Jawad MirOh, okay

20:47John Walsh... And so at least in this book there was nothing we didn't have access to. The p… the complete ending and all those things that happened around the ending were made available, so they trusted us, or trusted me to a greater extent.

21:01Jawad MirThat's awesome. That's awesome. I'm gonna ask you one more question, but before I do that, I wanted to show you... Here we go. You probably have had this.

21:12John WalshYes, I have that. That deserves…

21:13Jawad MirYes

21:13John Walsh... A big coffee table art book. This was back in the day, so you know, it was…

21:17Jawad MirYeah, it was by, New Market Press. At the time they used to make a lot of, making of books and scripts and whatnot.

21:24John WalshBut they never made them as big as they should've done, so it's an interesting thing. You have behind the scenes movie books have got kind of bigger and more elaborate, and I think really they need to go back and look at Gladiator if the license will permit it and do a kind of a companion piece to this book, which as you say, you had your one there. It's, it's, it's like I've got a big head, and it's like…... You know?

21:49Jawad MirYou should, maybe you should make one for companion one for…

21:53John WalshI'll do it. I'll do it. If Abrams are listening and if Universal want to get the license, let's do it, and we can…

21:58Jawad MirYeah

21:58John Walsh... We can reissue this one as a double book. I said to the publisher, "There's so much more I could've put into this." so I said, "We could do another edition"…... Which is always the way. I've always wanted a bigger book. Every single film book that's around me here could almost have been twice the size with pictures I found and new stories because it never stops. The tap never gets switched off. When you knock on someone's door and say, "The film you worked on 40 years ago, can you tell me this, tell me that?" They tell you and send you pictures and so on. Then once the book's published they'll say, "Oh, I thought of something else. I know it's too late, but in case there's another edition, and here are some extra pictures." And I'm like…... "I could've done with those pictures for the book." so it always keeps me a little bit awake at night thinking, "This should've been a bigger book." But publishers always say to me, "Calm down, John. Calm down. You know, you need to have an endpoint. We need to be able to sell these books and make them commercially viable so that you can keep writing them for us." So I'm like…

22:56Jawad MirYeah

22:56John Walsh... Okay.

22:57Jawad MirAmazing. Your interviews that you took, with the cast and the crew, if there was one interview or two interviews/stories that were very fascinating or the conversation that you had with any of the folks involved in the film, you wanna share something? It j… you know, that's not in the book necessarily, just kinda like the c… the conversation-wise.

23:21John WalshYeah. Well, Neal Colbord and, Mark Borowski from the visual effects, I'm really kind of involved in the sort of the whole visual effects side of things, and favorite visual effects sequences they had in other films. And, in the case of Mark Borowski from Industrial Light & Magic, he didn't know I was part of the Ray Harryhausen Foundation, and I asked him to name one of his favorite kind of historical special effects sequences from a historical film, and he named, the skeleton fight in Jason and the Argonauts, and I was like, "Wow."

23:52Jawad MirOne of my favorites too.

23:53John WalshGreat. You know, such a great sequence, you know? And, in fact, the skeleton fight in Jason and the Argonauts, just tell you as a sidebar, originally was gonna be set at nighttime and at the entrance to hell, but the censors at the time says, "No, not for the film classification you want. It has to be more at twilight, more like daytime, and it cannot be near the mouth of hell, and you cannot have these…" dead soldiers rising from their graves in the way that was intended. And so those sketches are in my book Harryhausen: The Lost Movies. So they had to tame it down so that they wouldn't get a higher, critical censor rating and keep out maybe family audiences. There w… there's a great marriage in Gladiator 2 between the practical special effects, so Neil Cobald, who'd worked on the original Superman: The Movie, that was his first job. Imagine that, Superman: The Movie being your first…

24:46Jawad MirWow

24:46John Walsh... Introduction to the world of cinema visual effects. And but I love Chris Reeve. I'm hardwired, he's the only Superman that

24:53Jawad MirYes

24:54John Walsh... I put him on the top of the pile, and imagine you would too. So he did some amazing practical effects on set that then had to be beautifully sculpted, if we can say, by Industrial Light & Magic. So the rhinoceros, for example, coming in, the top half is a practical rhinoceros, but the bottom half, the legs, are CG. And the enormous amount of practicality, I was so pleased to be able to establish in the book that everything was, that could be built was built, and in terms of practicality, even the baboons, there was real elements to the baboons. They weren't fully CG. So I'm really proud of those aspects. And of course Ridley's, magic is sprinkled throughout, and you know, having Ridley Scott involved is really marvelous because there's so many Ridley Scott books that deserve to be written as coffee table art books. Legend, that needs to… a coffee table art book. It hasn't happened, if not by me, by someone. And it was great to be able to find out the DNA connective tissue because I'd heard a rumor, and I was able to ask the question, that Ridley Scott had showed a print of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre to the crew of Alien before they started principal photography back in 1978, '79.

26:11John WalshAnd I always wondered, is that, is that true? Is that really... Because I know filmmakers often don't like to show other filmmakers work if it's not their own.

26:19Jawad MirYeah.

26:20John WalshAnd he said he wanted to get that same claustrophobic vibe that at the end of Texas Chainsaw where the woman is being chased around by Leatherface for Sigourney Weaver being chased around by the alien. And yeah, it's true, so we were able to confirm that. And

26:36Jawad MirWow

26:36John Walsh... And really didn't know I was doing Texas Chainsaw next. And, so it was, it was bizarre connective DNA from the highest budget film we've ever covered w… with Gladiator 2 to the lowest budget. Some estimates put the budget as low as $80,000 for the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

26:56Jawad MirWell, I mean, at that time, I would guess it's probably close to about 10, 15 million in today's time. Maybe, I mean, I don't know, I don't have the exact data, but I'm just guessing it would be couple of millions. I wouldn't say 10 million. Couple of millions probably.

27:08John WalshI think it would pr… if 80,000 in 1974… I did put it in the book, actually, and I can't remember. When, you know when you've put something in a book, you, it kind of slips out?

27:18Jawad MirYeah. It's okay.

27:19John WalshI…

27:19Jawad MirI mean, it's fine

27:19John Walsh... I think it might be nearer to the million mark, but not that much over one million. So it was shot on 16 millimeter, Texas Chainsaw. It's very raw looking. But the…... The new 4K restoration of it is absolutely superb. So if anyone needs to see what you can do with, 4K grading and telecinning of a print or even of a negative from the '70s, then it's definitely worth a look.

27:43Jawad MirAwesome. You spoke to Ridley too, right?

27:45John WalshYes.

27:45Jawad MirDirectly?

27:46John WalshYes.

27:47Jawad MirTalking to hi… and Denzel?

27:49John WalshYes. Yeah.

27:51Jawad MirTalking to tho… both, those two names, you know, Ridley's been around for 45 years, and he started his film career when he was 40. He had done over 2,000 commercials at the time, and then Denzel came, I think, in the mid…'80s, late '80s with Glory. And obviously we've grown up with both of them, right? With films like Black Hawk Down, Alien, Prometheus, American Gangster, and Denzel Washington being Malcolm X, Inside Man. I mean, there are so many films. What was that experience like talking to those two legends in their, in the cinema world?

28:30John WalshWell, it's incredible. I'm just looking through my notes now from the time because, Denzel worked, of course, with Tony Scott, and it's the, he's worked more with Tony Scott than any other director.

28:42Jawad MirYeah.

28:42John WalshSo he…

28:44Jawad MirThem, what is it? The, Unstoppable, I think, and Man on Fire.

28:49John WalshLet me tell you…

28:49Jawad MirRight?

28:49John Walsh... Yeah, in order. It's Crimson Tide…

28:52Jawad MirCrimson Tide, of course

28:53John Walsh... Man on, Man on Fire, Déjà Vu, The Taking of Pelham 123, Unstoppable. You know, a… as a, as a powerhouse, as the brothers Scott, I mean, they really were tremendous in their commercial ventures. You know, they, Ridley Scott Associates is a very successful commercials agency making commercials, you know, throughout the world for many of the major brands. But Denzel when, you know, he gets the call from Ridley Scott for this, he just says yes. And you know, he'd worked a lot with Tony, so he'd re… met Ridley quite a few times. So for him, it was the perfect, y… you know, the, I think he described it as the perfect holiday. But, of course that lessens his contribution because, of course, he's one of the great American actors, and it was amazing to speak to him. You know, on a film like this, which is again a live film, you're n… not really permitted to ask questions too much around the subject or around other issues. For example, I wouldn't ask this, but you wouldn't be allowed to ask about what you think of the current political climate or of something…

29:54Jawad MirOh, yeah

29:54John Walsh... Else that's in the media.

29:56Jawad MirYeah.

29:56John WalshAnd so they like you to be quite, as close as possible to sticking with the film, and I, and I'm always cheeky because I always try and ask about other films they've been involved with or films that connect, and we talked about Texas Chainsaw Massacre and connective DNA. So it's always good to try and to reach a little bit further, but making sure that the door is never kinda shut entirely on what you're doing.

30:18Jawad MirYeah. Denzel did work with, Ridley on American Gangster…

30:21John WalshYes

30:22Jawad Mir... With Russell Crowe, right?

30:23John WalshThat's right. Yes.

30:24Jawad MirYeah. Which came out, I think, maybe tw… 15 to 20 years ago around that realm, which is a great film as well. And that's, that's interesting you talked about talking about political climate, right?

30:38John WalshYes.

30:38Jawad MirWhen I'm doing the, when I'm doing this podcast, there's so many times, so many times when I can go on a tangent, right, about what's going on in the world. But I think w… the way I sort of perce… envision it that there's so much polarization, so much talk of politics and what's going on in the world in our daily lives all the time. Why… And there are so many other podcasts out there like that. Why should I, why should I bring that in here because this is about film and entertainment, right? And it is challenging, because our world is that. But sometimes I feel it's good to escape that just like you escape when you're watching a film.

31:18John WalshAbsolutely. You know, there is, there is a crossover here, and I can't tell you who told me this, but I asked about AI, and I said, you know, "Have you used any AI in this, in this process?" And they said, "Oh, we're not gonna discuss any of that." And I was like, "Oh, that was surprising." So even that was politically sensitive. Had I thought that going in, I would never have asked it, and I, and I probably won't ask again on another film, not another new film. Because it's interesting what people perceive as being a controversial subject. And you're sort of the gatekeeper to some extent of this as a, as a franchise or as a sequel to a successful…

31:54Jawad MirYeah

31:54John Walsh... Film. And, you know, the book needs to tell the story of how hard the films were to make, but also it's used as part of the marketing. You know, the soundtrack, the book. The book in a way has… These books, the reason they've become bigger, I suspect, is because they've become part of the EPK universe…

32:13John Walsh... So the electronic press kit. So in the past when the press would be handed out some flyers and postcards and whatnots, all of my books here have followed in either a reissue of the film for cinema release, or there's been some kind of 4K release coming up. And I know that's the case of a lot of the StudioCanal ones that I've covered, like The Wicker Man and Flash Gordon and so on. So there's been an additional, commercial imperative behind it, but it means it gives me more power to do a bigger book and do something that maybe is more lasting. And it is a shame you picked up the Gladiator book from back in the day, and it's like, those books, I remember picking a similar one up for Batman Returns…

32:58John Walsh... And thinking, "Wow, this is great. Look at all the color pictures." I think one of the Star Wars prequels had a book similar, and I was always thinking, "I'd pay for a hardback book. Maybe no one else would." And it's like, no, there's queues of them that would pay for this. Why has it taken Tyson to realize? Because there are other people that make big making-of books, but I've done most of these with Tyson, and they have a kind of a no fear attitude, and they have great, talent in the layouts and the covers for these books. I mean, a lot of it's left to me to try and find the best photos and ones that have never been published before. And if you're a real fan, you'll know which ones have never been published before. You won't have to ask someone else, so it's a good test of if you should be writing the book or not. For Gladiator two though, everything's unpublished, so you're kinda hoping that they don't release too many of the pictures that are in your book to the press or to magazines. And so when I was flicking through some magazines, I was like, "Oh, I thought that was just for our book." so you…... You start to see, different images popping up.

34:00John WalshSo I think a lot of the editorial decisions made by the publisher, Abrams, and also by big kind of flashy magazines like Vanity Fair and Empire and so on, and Variety, they all have a similar eye, and they all chose the same kind of five or 10 pictures which kinda best illustrated the making of the film.

34:20Jawad MirBut you know what? I would like to argue a lot of people other than, you know, hardcore movie fans probably don't remember eventually when it comes out the book. Going back to a couple of things we were talking about earlier, I think to my knowledge, I always thought the making of Jurassic Park, the book that came out in 1994 or '5, was probably the first of its kind. I think that kinda started the trend. But I… as you said, Batman Returns, I don't know if it was published after Jurassic Park or right after the film came out in 1992 or something like that around Jurassic Park.

34:52John WalshYeah, I think so, yeah.

34:53Jawad MirYeah. And, you know, talking about AI and other stuff, the problem is we live in such a world is that where there is no news and it becomes news on social media, and it spreads like rapid fire all these controversies which are not sometimes even true, right? Like, and then it damages the brand, and people love to buycott stuff now. Like, you know, everything is like, "Oh, I'm not gonna do this," or on little things. So I understand, like, why studios do that because you don't want your film to be destroyed before it even comes out, right? In the case of another film of Ridley Scott, was it, House of Gucci when the whole, Kevin Spacey thing happened and, right?

35:32John WalshIt was All the Money in the World.

35:34Jawad MirAll the Money in the World.

35:34John WalshMoney in the World.

35:35Jawad MirSo yeah, all of it.

35:35John WalshNo, you were right. You're right but just the wrong title, yeah.

35:38Jawad MirYeah, I don't know how, I don't know how I thought of House of Gucci but ... All the Money in the World and how they replaced that with Christopher Plummer. And had they left that in there, I don't know what would've happened, but I think they just took the road which they felt that would cause less problems to deal with in the post. Maybe they end up, you know, i… in the release, maybe they ended up making more, spending more money on it for sure, but just saved them from all the hassle and the headache. So I understand how studios perceive that.

36:08John WalshAnd the great thing is Chris Plummer, who was absolutely brilliant in that role as Jean Paul Getty, he was an, he's an older gentleman. He's no longer with us now, but

36:18Jawad MirYes

36:18John Walsh... If he'd been cast in the first place, they wouldn't have had the problems. I think his performance… I've seen, clips of both the Kevin Spacey and the Chris Plummer, and I think Chris Plummer really nails it. But Hollywood has an aversion to sometimes casting people who are slightly older in case they Struggled with the production schedule, or as in the case of the original Gladiator, the brilliant, Oliver Reed passed away during the production.

36:44Jawad MirYeah.

36:44John WalshSo you have to always be mindful of that sort of thing. But no, with Me Too and what happened around the Spacey thing, it's, you know, it's, it's a tricky thing. You know, and that still feels kind of sensitive now even to discuss it. But, you know, on a big film, what can you do? You know, you don't want to strangle the baby at birth. You wanna give it the best chance it can. And they had to get a lot of the principals back as well. I think it was like Mark Wahlberg was, had to be in many of the scenes with…

37:14Jawad MirYeah

37:14John Walsh... With John Paul Getty and so on. So…

37:16Jawad MirYeah

37:16John Walsh... It can't have been easy just putting that back together and just, reassembling it with someone else playing a crucial part. I think it was lucky for them that a lot of the scenes with Getty were in the mansion, so at least it wasn't as if you had to rebuild a lot of the location…

37:32Jawad MirYeah

37:32John Walsh... Sequences. And they didn't do like a face removal thing where you just put a digital face on someone else from a s… another sequence. That would've been a bit kinda hokey.

37:42Jawad MirI mean, they're totally different statures and height. Chris was much taller. And I remember watching the trailer originally when it came out, All the Money in the World. I think if my memory serves me right, there was a trailer with Kevin Spacey in it, right? And then they…

37:58John WalshYes

37:58Jawad Mir... I don't know if they redid that entire trailer and just replaced Kevin with Chris, but, then the next one came out. But yeah, anyways, you know, with Gladiator II, the book that you worked on, you being in the film world as we sort of wrap up, what was one thing aside from the practical effects... Sorry, by the way, I'm just gonna kind of go in here. You talked about the rhino shot. I was, there was a picture in there of the rhino on wheels, which I thought was phenomenal, right? Like, what was one thing that you learned about maybe about the film world or about the process that you probably hadn't known before, or something that gave you that awe, aside from what we already discussed?

38:44John WalshI think that someone like Ridley, and everyone describes him as like a general leading his troops, and yet he's hugely creative. So he'll have an idea in mind of what he's doing for the day, and he'll have quite a few cameras set up, but if someone came and spoke to him and said, "You know, really, I think if I started from this doorway and I came in holding a loaf of bread, then it's gonna work better for the scene because you see me eating later," he'll say, "Sure, give it a go. Let's see." You know? He will definitely try something, even on a picture that's this big and that has so many pressures, and everything, all the decisions go back to Ridley. As much as John Mathieson, who painted with golden lights, did a beautiful job on the film, and Arthur Max, the production designer, everything goes back to Ridley. And you can imagine, can't you? Ridley's of a certain age. I hope that we both get to that age and are still working, and everything has to go to Ridley. And I'm sure the studio was very conscious of the fact that, you know, they don't need to keep pushing on Ridley. But I think he f… he flourished on the pressure, and he's fully open, even to a film that's this appearing to be locked down in the Ridleygrams, in the storyboards, to something new and trying something.

39:53John WalshYou know, Paul came up with some ideas, Paul Mescal, and so did Denzel for different th… sequences during the fight sequence, during the death sequence at the end. So he allows a real flexibility with the cast and crew to be able to come and speak in his ear. But of course, you know, this is me saying this, I'm, I'm sure he doesn't suffer fools gladly. You know, if you're bringing an idea for an idea's sake, don't. Or if it's for your own status, don't.

40:18Jawad MirYeah.

40:18John WalshIf it's gonna work for the sequence, absolutely do. Absolutely do. And yeah, you talked about, a lady that worked with, Ridley before on many films. Ridley…

40:27Jawad MirSon… Sonia Clough.

40:28John WalshSonia Clough. So Ridley collects these people around him, these wonderful talents, and brings them with him from f… to film. And in my own small way, when I make films for television, I have favorite cameramen, editors, and sound recordists, and I'll always try and be available for when they are free 'cause you want to reassemble that team again where possible because it gives you a real sense of security. And I know Ridley needs that sense of practical security around him, so he doesn't have to worry about the lighting 'cause it's gonna be epic. He doesn't have to worry about the sets. He has a lot to worry about. But he was so focused like a laser, like a general, and yet open like an artist. That surprised me the most.

41:09Jawad MirNice. And you're so right about working with the people that are at your wavelength. I'm exactly like that. I have the same DP for the last 20 years, and it really, I don't, like, y… that one element of worry goes away because okay, he will handle it, right? And one thing about Ridley is something that I read, I read this 25, 26 years ago when he had made, just before Gladiator, what he ha… what he had, what did he have, what did he make before that recently? I know he's made Thelma & Louise, Legend, but in the…

41:43John WalshBlade Runner? Was it Blade Runner?

41:44Jawad MirNo, Blade Runner. No, in the, between Thelma & Louise and Gladiator, there was a movie or two that he made. I can't remember. But anyways, I read that how he had done commercials, right?

41:53John WalshYes.

41:53Jawad MirAnd that there was a whole thing about if you are 40, and if you're not, if you haven't made a film, don't despair. Look at L… L… Ridley's resume, right? You look at it like it's crazy. And I think part of the reason he works like the way he works, and I work like that too, I haven't done commercials. I have done a lot of, beside, before the films, a lot of corporate and brand films. But also the one thing that taught me a lot about moving really fast is, having to do, weddings. I did over 200 weddings between, you know, about up until like 15 years ago, and that made me super fast in the way I move, but also having… To have some sort of script that's tied down that keeps me i… in check. I think that's exactly how R… the way Ridley works, fast, but that's, and he's very open to it is because of commercials. I think that has a lot to do with it.

42:52John WalshI think you're right. I think you're right. And just on your notes, I looked on his Wikipedia page. Again, I remembered all this before. After Thelma & Louise, but before Gladiator, it was, 1492: Conquest of Paradise.

43:05Jawad MirYes, and White Squall.

43:06John WalshWhite Squall, and one more, G.I. Jane.

43:10Jawad MirThat's another one. Yes, I remember G.I. Jane.

43:13John WalshG.I. Jane.

43:13Jawad MirYeah.

43:13John WalshSo

43:13Jawad MirYeah

43:13John Walsh... They're all titles we remember, you know, so it's

43:16Jawad MirYes

43:18John Walsh... Great films.

43:18Jawad MirIncredible. Great films, of course. I was going through, when I was going through your book and I saw all the titles of the films, I'm like, "Okay, I've seen this, I've seen this, I haven't seen this, I haven't..." And I was like, "I've seen 75% of his film, and why haven't I seen the other 25?" So now I gotta go and watch it. One film I, when I saw the trailer of it, Exodus, the one with, about Moses and Ten Commandments, 'cause, Prince of Egypt is one of my favorite films, so is the original Ten Commandments.

43:43Jawad MirAnd Exodus had a great cast, but the visuals just looked very CG. I haven't seen it, but I gotta give it a chance because it just kinda turned me off, but I gotta watch it. I don't know if you've seen that movie yet.

43:56John WalshYeah, I have, you know, and directors like to go as practical as possible, but often it's, it's, it's younger execs at studios who want it CG because it's safer.

44:05Jawad MirYeah.

44:05John WalshBecause you never know what's gonna happen. You know, you look at the old Bond films, I much prefer the work of Derek Meddings on things like, U… The Spy Who Loved Me and Moonraker.

44:15Jawad MirOh, got ya.

44:15John WalshI much prefer that older world of photochemical Derek Meddings, who was an absolute genius. And it has a, it had a real gravitas to it. But again, it's, it's as you said, it's what you've seen first and the emotional imprint that has if it's your first experience. So I think that plays a big part.

44:31Jawad MirYeah. I mean, I totally, you know, we're talking about Jason and the Argonauts. I grew up with wa… watching that. Sinbad and Seventh, his Seventh Voyage, Jack the Giant Killer. I don't know if he was, if was, if it was, if that was done by Ray or not.

44:46John WalshNo, that wasn't one of Ray's. That was Jim Danforth, who'd worked with Ray…

44:49Jawad MirOkay

44:50John Walsh... On Clash of the Titans. It's a fine film. Fine film.

44:52Jawad MirRight. And, yeah, Jack and the Giant Killer, Jack the Giant Killer I've seen so many times. But again, if you look at it now, it looks very cheesy in terms of effects, but if you put your head in that time to know that you, they were able to pull all the stuff, especially Jason and the Argonauts, I mean, that is, like, crazy how they were able to pull that off almost, what? 60 years ago or more than that, right?

45:14John WalshThat's right. Yes.

45:15Jawad MirIt was fif… yeah. So…

45:16John Walsh1963. Yeah

45:18Jawad Mir... Yeah, kudos to them. And hopefully at some point with the evolution of AI and everything, people would appreciate our times being the classic time. I think it's just the way the world works. But thank you so much for your time. Anything else you wanna add, John, at the end?

45:33John WalshNo, I'd happily come back and speak to you about any of the other books, and maybe once Texas Chainsaw comes out, I think it's scheduled for this September, maybe I can get one across to you and you can give me your verdict.

45:43Jawad MirAwesome, and I would love to talk to you at least once if not twice before that about some of your other books. Let's do that.

45:50John WalshIt's a date. Let's get a date in the diary.

45:52Jawad MirPerfect. Thank you so much, John. Have a great day, man.

45:54John WalshYou too. Thank you.

45:55Jawad MirAppreciate it.