'The Rocketeer', Screenwriter, Danny Bilson

0:00Jawad MirYou know, I wonder if Tom Cruise had played the lead role…

0:02Danny BilsonThey couldn't get him. I mean, they tried. The only time I found it frustrating was some of the Disney notes I found frustrating.

0:08Jawad MirCan... Do you remember one that annoyed you the most?

0:11Danny BilsonYeah. Yeah, and it might be a legit note, but for me at the time it was frustrating, which was why do Cliff and Jenny, why do they love each other?

0:18Jawad MirIt is mind-boggling that how real it looks even now, 35 years later.

0:23Danny BilsonIt looks kind of state-of-the-art for 1991, and then it has all the charm of no CG. Yeah. Well, also that was his thing, right? And he had Ken Ralston, you know, one of the masters of ILM. The only writing teacher that Paul and I ever had was John Williams. Like there's a few things he taught us back in 1980 there, and one of the most important ones is write the movie you wanna see the most. It comes down to one other big question. But what the protagonist wants, what their objective is, what the antagonist wants, whatever the antagonist is, and then most importantly, what are the stakes?

1:01Jawad MirI saw Rocketeer, not in the theaters, but the year whenever it came out on VHS at the time in 1991. I remember watching the trailers and, you know, I think after Batman Part One, and maybe even after Two, was the first superhero movie of its kind, and very unique in terms of production design, story, vulnerable characters, and, something that I've really cherished. You know, if I was to... I'm not a big fan of superhero movies, and the only ones that I've seen is the Christopher Nolan trilogy, the original Spider-Man, the first two Batman, and Rocketeer, and those really stand out for me in their uniqueness. So really wanna thank you for that.

1:40Danny BilsonWell, I mean, it's a lot, a lot of people deserve credit for it.

1:45Jawad MirOf course.

1:45Danny BilsonCertainly Paul and I were there from the very beginning with Dave Stevens, of course, you know, developing it and trying to take it to market and all that.

1:57Jawad MirYeah. And that's where I would love to sort of start off at, like, because it took time, right? I mean, obviously it takes time to write, but to shop it, and then there are rewrites, and then you have someone like Joe Johnston, who came from ILM and had recently directed Honey, I Shrunk the Kids for Disney, to come on board. Just walk me through that journey, you know, from the time of writing to…

2:19Danny BilsonSure. It's a li… it's a long one.

2:21Jawad MirI'm here to listen, man. That's what it's for you to talk and me to listen.

2:23Danny BilsonWhere do you wanna start? Where do you wanna start? You wanna start, when Paul and I found the comic book? I mean…

2:29Jawad MirYes, please. Yes, please.

2:30Danny BilsonOkay.

2:30Jawad MirThat'd be lovely.

2:32Danny BilsonSo in the '80s, Paul and I were working at a B movie company called Empire, which then became Full Moon later on, Charlie Band's company. It's a really long story about the origins of that and how we wound up there. But we wound up with some crazy deal to write seven movies so that I could direct one. It was, it was one of those, you know, Wild West kind of things. So the location of our office at Empire was on Fairfax, just not... A walking distance from the Golden Apple comic book store, which is one of the better known sort of legendary comic book stores in LA. There's a few, but that's one of them for sure.

3:12Jawad MirRight.

3:12Danny BilsonAnd we found Rocke… we were always looking for ideas there. We just liked comics and fantasy and sci-fi, certainly at that time in particular. And we saw the Rocketeer, and the art just popped out. I mean, Paul and I loved old movies, and ultimately Dave Stevens, Paul, and I loved old movies, and that was what sort of bonded us together. But we... And I don't remember how we did it, but somehow, and we had an agent and we were doing stuff, but somehow we contacted... We wanted to find out about the rights to the Rocketeer, and it seemed that they were just coming free because another director named Steve Miner, who had done things like House and some other larger scale B movies, I would say…

4:00Danny Bilson... Had the option was running out with him. So we met with Dave, and I had just... Paul and I had just come back from Italy where we made my first movie, Zone Troopers. That was the one I got to direct for writing Seven. And it was a very much... It's a, it's a World War II movie made as if it were made in 1943 or something.

4:25Jawad MirOkay.

4:25Danny BilsonAnd it's about a bunch of, GIs lost in Italy behind enemy lines. They find a crashed alien spaceship, and the alien spaceship looks like something out of Buck Rogers. So this was all very in sync. Dave, Paul, and I, he could see from... You know, I remember him seeing the production designs in my office for it. I can't remember at what point he saw the movie itself. But anyway, we were sitting there talking and pitching ideas for the Rocketeer film, and I said, "Well, I think it'd be really fun to have the Creeper in it." Rondo Hatton is the Creeper. In the movie, he's called Lothar, 'cause they didn't wanna, I guess, get into a licensing thing. But Dave was like, his eyes lit up and just coincidentally, he was a huge fan of the Creeper and Rondo Hatton, and he was working on a... I think he'd drawn him before, and he was really into it. So it was just a lot of symmetry.

5:29Jawad MirPoints of interest, yeah.

5:30Danny BilsonWe all liked it. We... You know what it was, to be honest. We all grew up watching old movies on TV, because in the old days when we were kids, that's what they would show all day long. There was always an afternoon movie, a late afternoon movie, a morning movie, an evening movie. And the evening movie in the local station, they'd show the same old movie five days in a row. And if you were really into an old movie, you could watch it multiple times.

5:51Jawad MirYeah.

5:51Danny BilsonIt was called the Dollar Movie out in New York and LA. I think they had it both. I grew up in LA. So anyway, we just all liked the same stuff, so we didn't have any money. To pay for an option. But Dave was kind of like, "These guys get it. Let's go." So we never paid option money for The Rocketeer. We just had a gentleman's agreement with Dave. We went to producers that were interested in our stuff, which goes back to Zone Troopers again, the movie we made in Italy. Or Trancers, our first movie, actually. Jim Cameron had seen it at the AFM, and had told the guys who ran Fox that we were the next guys coming out of B movies that they should look at. So when I got back from Italy from filming Zone Troopers, we had a meeting with Lloyd Levin, who was a development executive at Fox, I think working for Scott Rudin and Larry Gordon. Larry Gordon, for sure.

6:44Danny BilsonAnd they said, "What do you guys wanna do?" And we said, "The Rocketeer." And so at that point, Lloyd and Paul and I, and ultimately Larry, and then Chuck, his brother, eventually became the producers. But we set about to develop The Rocketeer as a movie and take it to market. And from that point it took six years before the movie got made. I mean, it was a lot of back and forth and trying to sell it. And eventually... And we also had another director attached before Joe.

7:18Jawad MirOh.

7:18Danny BilsonA guy named, yeah, Bill Dear, who's, was... He's a huge commercial director coming out of Detroit. Wonderful guy, great sense of humor. And Dave and Paul and I worked for him at s… with him. Must have been two…

7:34Jawad MirWait, I... Was it the guy who directed Harry and the Henderson?

7:37Danny BilsonYes, I was about to say that. He worked for…

7:39Jawad MirI had him on earlier two years ago. Yeah, go on.

7:41Danny BilsonYou did. Okay.

7:42Jawad MirYeah.

7:43Danny BilsonSo did he mention The Rocketeer at all?

7:45Jawad MirI think now that you mention it, he talked about it very briefly, that he w…

7:49Danny BilsonYeah, it was painful for him

7:49Jawad Mir... He didn't say he was gonna be director. Yeah, and he said…

7:52Danny BilsonUltimately it was painful for him, 'cause he got removed from…

7:54Jawad MirYeah

7:54Danny Bilson... I don't even know why.

7:55Jawad MirYeah.

7:55Danny BilsonBecause it was before the movie started shooting. I think it ha… I'll, I'll get to that.

7:59Jawad MirYeah.

7:59Danny BilsonSo Bill came on, and we did a multiple draft. We already had a draft of the script, of course, by the time a director came on. And then he wanted a... He had ideas and rewrite ideas, and we rewrote with him and worked on it for a couple years, including while he was making Harry and his Hendersons, 'cause I distinctly remember s… Dave and Paul and I visiting the set when they were in LA. Matter somewhere I have a sketch from Rick Baker of Harry.

8:32Danny BilsonSo anyway, so we, eventually we set it up at Disney, developed it with Bill. We set it up actually at Touchstone Pictures at the time.

8:44Jawad MirRight. Right. Right.

8:44Danny Bilson'Cause at that time, nobody wanted a Disney movie on a live action movie, 'cause they thought it was a death curse at the box office.

8:52Jawad MirYeah.

8:52Danny BilsonEspecially for a adventure movie, which we saw as kind of an Indiana Jones kind of movie, right? So much more so than a superhero film. We didn't really see it that way. We saw it as a movie serial adventure film like Indiana Jones.

9:07Jawad MirRight.

9:07Danny BilsonThe Rocketeer by Dave Stevens was based on King of the Rocket Men, which he loved as a kid, which was a movie serial about a guy with a rocket pack that flew around. So it had a very similar, genesis as Indiana Jones, right? Based on adventure serials at the time.

9:23Jawad MirYeah.

9:25Danny BilsonSo anyway, we set it up at Touchstone, and at some point there was lots of rewrites. Joe Johnston, Bill Dear. I think it wasn't that Bill Dear was removed as much as they really wanted Joe Johnston to do the movie, because Honey, I Shrunk the Kids was a big hit for them.

9:46Jawad MirYeah. I was gonna suggest that to you.

9:48Danny BilsonAnd Joe also loved aviation, and Joe was one of the masters of ILM before that. I mean, if you look at what he did before he became a director as an art director…

10:00Jawad Mir100%

10:00Danny Bilson... At ILM, it's amazing. The, from the ad ads to, I don't wanna misquote, but there's so much stuff in Star Wars that Joe designed. So Joe came on, and suddenly... Now, at the same time, Paul and I were doing The Flash TV show at this point at Warner Brothers.

10:17Jawad MirRight.

10:17Danny BilsonAnd I remember lots of Joe and Dave and Paul and I in our office at Warner Brothers in particular, working on Joe's version of the script and rewrites. There was lots of rewrites along the way. Eventually, there was a couple of other writer. Disney used to do this, like if they had notes, "Oh, let's get another writer to do another pass." Especially at that time. And so I remember Jim Kouf did a pass, and we definitely... W… I'll, I'll cut to the chase, is that Paul and I came back on the project at the end.

10:52Jawad MirRight.

10:52Danny BilsonWhich really didn't happen in those days, and I think it was Larry Gordon and Chuck Gordon and Lloyd Levin who said, "You gotta bring them back." So you know what I mean? It was our project. So I remember the Jim Kouf version, we kept one great joke of his, which was Big Gopher, which was his joke. It wasn't ours.

11:11Danny BilsonAnd then, Frank's draft, I don't remember, but I'm sure there's things here and there that survived, 'cause Frank's a good w… You know, they're both good writers. Frank's a really great writer. And then Paul and I came back and rewrote and rewrote with Joe, and then we rewrote through production whenever they had production issues, which was a few times. But Paul and I were in deep production on The Flash, so we weren't able to really hang out on the set on The Rocketeer. So did I cover sort of how I, how we got there?

11:42Jawad MirYou did.

11:43Danny BilsonOkay.

11:43Jawad MirYou did. And you did, and I think it's a great story how it came to be. And when I was speaking to Bill, we were talking about Harry and the Henderson. I had no idea that he had a credit on Rocketeer, and he mentioned…

11:55Danny BilsonYeah, we felt... Yeah, I'll, I'll be honest, in the Writers Guild, the main authors and the first authors have tremendous… Power of credit, whoever the first author is.

12:07Jawad MirYeah.

12:07Danny BilsonAnd Paul and I were the first authors before Bill was on it. Bill worked on it for a... We felt that, and there was some stuff of Bill's in there, for sure. I remember a line of his that's in there, which is that, "Acting isn't acting, don't like act," whatever that line is. That was his.

12:23Danny BilsonI remember a few things, but we liked him. We felt that he contributed, and we felt that we wanted to give him story credit. So we didn't block that in any way or ask for sole credit in any way. We actually suggested that he have story credit, because we felt he deserved it.

12:41Jawad MirYeah.

12:41Danny BilsonJust ethically. Same thing with The Five Bloods. Our, Paul and my, our last film was, you know, in the Writers Guild, if you're the first writers, you can just kind of, it's pretty easy to get full credit, like the guys did on, BlacKkKlansman. But we felt like that's crazy. This is a, our movie was a diverse cast. This is a Black movie. We, these guys, they gotta have credit on the screenplay, Spike and, Kevin. So…

13:10Jawad MirYeah

13:11Danny Bilson... Paul and I always went for what just felt right, and it really felt right for Bill to have a credit on The Rocketeer. So to me, not that I remember exactly what he did, but definitely he contributed a lot or Paul and I wouldn't have wanted that.

13:25Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, I don't think, I even had lunch with him in LA, a couple of times, and I don't think he ever mentioned in any negative way about could have been or should have been. But I also think, I mean, he directed Angels in the Outfields, which was a great movie with

13:41Danny BilsonRight, and that was at Disney also.

13:43Jawad MirYeah.

13:44Danny BilsonYou see, my point was, I think he was removed because they were excited about Joe Johnston, not because they had any problem with Bill, because they gave Bill another movie.

13:54Jawad MirAnd I think so, too, and I think, nothing to take away from Bill. Obviously, The Rocketeer came out to be a really good film, so now that we can say that. But had it turned out to be a really terrible film, then, you know, in hindsight, okay, it would've been a better choice to have Bill. But because Rocketeer became such a, it wasn't really a box office hit per se, but it became a very cult classic. Like, you know, to this day it's remembered. And, it's, it's just so bizarre that there's a scene in the film where he, the Rocketeer is, he's flying by, right beside a plane, right? Like, when he first goes up in the air during the air show. And if you look at some of the stuff that's out there in the real world now, especially in Dubai, they had a similar, like, a rocket man flying right next to a plane. And, I mean, talk about culture impact, right? And how that shifted, that shaped. I'm sure it was meant to happen anyways, but still, it speaks volumes about the impact.

14:50Danny BilsonI think that, I think that shot, if I recall correctly, was in the comic book, I think. I think that was in the original comic. Now, Paul, I didn't mention this before, but when we partnered with Dave, we started writing the comic with him. So w… the Cliff Goes to New York stuff, I think after the first chapter, is all, mostly is co-written by Paul and I with Dave. All of it.

15:15Danny BilsonAnd then he just gave us a thank you credit in the thing. Same with Mike Kaluta, who inked the whole thing. Which was fine. The only thing that wasn't fine was we were supposed to get a page of original art for our work, 'cause we didn't…

15:28Jawad MirYeah

15:29Danny Bilson... Charge him any money, and we never got that, which is a bummer. But, everything el… I just saw The Rocketeer at a 35th anniversary screening last week, excuse me, here in LA. And y… what I reacted to this time, I was more impressed with Joe Johnston's work for some reason than ever before. His blocking and composition is really great, and his editing of the action sequences is really great. And the last thing I thought of, I was sitting there going, "You know what? This is a really good movie." You know…

16:07Jawad MirIt…

16:07Danny Bilson... Straight up, it's a good movie. And, you know, I've had all kinds of feelings, always positive a-about it along the way, but different criticism of this little thing or that little thing. But 35 years later, I was just sitting there going, "You know what? This is really good." And it's also what Dave and Paul and I, for the most part, wanted. And the other thing is, what's crazy about it, and I noticed this the last few times I've seen it over the years, is the dialogue. Like, that's Bilson-DeMayo stuff and sort of nobody does 1930s dialogue in those movies anymore, or even then. I don't know how we got away with it. But Zone Troopers was the same way. Trancers, our first film, was kind of the same way. It's, it's, was kind of like our thing. We were just old movie heads.

16:53Danny BilsonAnd Trancers is a movie about a cop from the future who loves film noir, and so he talks like a Philip Marlowe character. And they made, like, four sequels to it in B movie land. So it was successful. I had a wonderful actor named Tim Thomerson who was in everything we always did at the beginning. And a great friend. But that was our stuff. And I'll tell you a funny anecdote is just yesterday.

17:17Jawad MirSure.

17:17Danny BilsonI'm actually writing a video game right now.

17:20Jawad MirOkay.

17:20Danny BilsonAnd I'm, have sort of an editor/co-writer working with me. And he comes across this line in this game, and it, and it said, it called somebody Baby Dumpling. And he goes, "You know, I had to look this up." He's English. He goes, "I had to look this up, and Baby Dumpling is a reference to Blondie from the 1930s," blah. "I don't think our audience will get it." And I wrote him back and I said, "They don't have to get the reference. It sounds funny."

17:49Jawad MirYeah.

17:49Danny BilsonYou know what I mean? In and of its own. And then I thought about this yesterday and I thought, "Well, wait a second. That's Bilson-DeMayo's shtick." You know, that was our gag, was, like, using 1930s slang for futuristic slang or fantasies or anything, you know? Just, so anyway, The Rocketeer dialogue is something else, and I don't think anybody, I don't know how we got away with that. I think Everybody protected it. Maybe the comic book helped us. And, look, Joe Johnston loved the comic book a lot.

18:22Danny BilsonAnd I was just at the screening, and Dave's sister, who runs The Rocketeer Trust, which is... She does an amazing job with merchandise and keeping the art alive, 'cause the art's super popular. You know, we were talking about she wor… they were talking about how much Dave had, was involved in the movie, and I knew that he was pr… he was a part of the art department, basically. But no, that doesn't happen in movies, where they have the comic book creator on the set working in the art department the whole time. It was a very unique situation. And funny enough, Dave was kind of grinding his teeth through the whole thing, because he's a perfectionist and he wanted everything to be perfect.

19:08Jawad MirYeah.

19:08Danny BilsonAnd all the things about movie making and compromises and... I think he was more upset with some of the Disney licensing deal with the stuff. But he did keep all his... That's why they have The Rocketeer Trust, 'cause he kept the rights to all the comic book art and logos and everything. So, everything they make is from that. I saw just the other day they have Rocketeer bourbon or something with a beautiful label with the Rocketeer on it and stuff. So the…

19:34Jawad MirI gotta... I didn't know there was such a thing. I gotta look into that.

19:37Danny BilsonLook it up, because, if you want, they have all kinds of merch. It's super nice.

19:44Jawad MirI'll tell you about…

19:44Danny BilsonEverything from pins to, I, you know, I have a ton of Rocketeer stuff. Like, I think I was collecting it before I was, even wrote the movie, so I mean, I've got tons.

19:57Jawad MirAwesome. You know, one thing we were talking about Joe Johnston, I think if you look at the visual effects of that film, it being 1991, and this is before Jurassic Park breakthrough, right? This…

20:09Danny BilsonYeah, it's before CG. It really is.

20:11Jawad MirRight. And it looks pretty damn good, right? If there is, I think, I always say this in my conversations on the podcast whenever we're talking about VFX, if there's one film, if there's any, very few directors who blend in visual effects with practical effects very seamlessly, Spielberg being number one in my view, James Cameron being number two. Christopher Nolan is right up there. But if you look at Joe Johnston's, you know, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, but more so Rocketeer, it is mind-boggling that how real it looks even now, 35 years later. You know, even when he's flying in the air. Normally, you would, you could tell it was shot against, like, a chroma key, like, you know, green screen. You can't tell that in this film. You just can't.

20:54Danny BilsonI think it looks, it looks kinda state-of-the-art for 1991, and then it has all the charm of no CG, right?

21:03Jawad MirYeah.

21:03Danny BilsonI think that's part of it, too.

21:05Jawad MirYeah.

21:05Danny BilsonAnd you know, the zeppelin was, there was a giant piece of zeppelin for them to run around on, you know, built outside. So, at night. Yeah. Well, also, that was his thing, right? And he had Ken Ralston, you know, one of the masters of ILM supervising the movie.

21:26Danny BilsonI just think it all comes together and it's one and the same piece. Like, I think the effects and the 1930s stuff, they all work, and they're real airplanes, right? 'Cause those are real airplanes. It's not…

21:37Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

21:37Danny Bilson... I mean, it's not miniature stuff, for sure, but they were in Santa Maria flying planes around. One of the main reasons is Joe's an aviator. That was another reason he wanted to do it. He had a, he used to fly ultralights and stuff up in northern California. So both him and Dave and another guy, Mike Kaluta, who was very involved in the comic book side, they were huge aviation nuts. Paul and I certainly appreciated it, but those guys were all way more into it than us.

22:02Jawad MirYou know, I wonder if Tom Cruise had played the lead role, if the movie had come a couple of years later, because he's into, huge into aviation, and obviously the stunts and everything that he does. And it kind of, it kind of fits his thing if... But, nevertheless, you know, as it is, it's amazing, the casting is perfect.

22:18Danny BilsonThey couldn't get him. I mean, they tried.

22:19Jawad MirOh, they did?

22:20Danny BilsonYeah.

22:23Jawad MirAmazing. When you were writing the screenplay, right, obviously y… you were ins… getting inspired by the comics. You read it and everything. But what was the emotional core for you when you were writing it? Do you... I know it's been a long time, but what was the central core?

22:41Danny BilsonNo, I know. I have to say it was... This is gonna sound weird. But it was the movies. It was the movies of the '30s. That was the central core. We just loved them and loved their plotting, loved the dialogue, loved the attitude, loved the Hollywood stuff, loved the old Hollywood stuff...

23:08Jawad MirMakes sense. That's a great answer.

23:10Danny BilsonI think so.

23:11Jawad MirThat's a gr… no, that's a great answer, because I've grown up on '70s, '80s, and '90s, and, you know, if I'm, like, I'm in, production myself. I direct. And, whenever I'm working on something, I'm always referencing those eras, because to me, that's a gold mine, right? And obviously, '30s, '40s, '50s, and '60s were, too. There were some great films made in '60s and '50s. I mean, Wizard of Oz, 1939, like, go figure, right? It's almost 100 years old. But yeah, that makes perfect sense. Was there any particular time when you were trying to sell the film or, you know, you ta… you talked about it, or writing it, where it just felt like, "This ain't working. Let's just forget about it," or frustration k… kinda crept in?

23:57Danny BilsonNo.

23:58Jawad MirNever, eh?

24:00Danny BilsonWell, frustration…

24:02Jawad Mir'Cause, 'cause our business is…

24:06Danny BilsonThe only time I found it frustrating was some of the notes, some of the Disney notes I found frustrating.

24:11Jawad MirCan, do you remember one that annoyed you the most? It…

24:13Danny BilsonYeah. Yeah, and it might be a legit note, but for me at the time it was frustrating. Which was why do Cliff and Betty, or Jenny… Why do they love each other? You know, I think it's a legit note now. At the time, I thought it was an absurd note. And let's just leave it right there.

24:35Jawad MirWell, you know…

24:36Danny BilsonNow that, you know, it's legit, but I found it, at the time, like, wait a minute, this whole piece, beat for beat, shows why they love each other. I mean, do I have to explain it in the sc… in the script? Look, they could have been right about that one, and it just might have been where my head was at in those days, you know?

24:58Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

24:59Danny BilsonAs far as writing goes. But no, the, that... Some of the notes were frustrating. One thing that was frustrating about the whole experience was not being able to spend more time on and enjoy the production, because we were enjoying our own production of The Flash.

25:16Danny BilsonSort of relentlessly, 22 episodes. It's almost seven days a week of work for Paul and I. So, we wanted to enjoy The Rocketeer more in production, and we did. We were able to. But there was one night where they shot the exterior of the South Seas Club on the Flash set, 'cause we had taken over the Warner Brothers backlot that year.

25:36Danny BilsonAnd so that... And so our office was, you know, 50 yards from the set, that set of The Rocketeer that night. But unfortunately, The Flash was shooting on location. So we never, we really wanted to have a, take a picture of The Rocketeer and The Flash standing next to each other with us. I know that sounds silly, but it was…

25:57Jawad MirNo. And I wa…

25:59Danny BilsonThe image I got... Look, we were... Look, we love this stuff. Let's just be serious. Like, the stuff we were making, we were making stuff we loved, and we always kinda did, more or less. So especially at that time, between The Flash and The Rocketeer, we were just... Look, we didn't, we were just working our butts off. You know what I mean? But we didn't... When I look back on it, sort of a, it was kind of a, "How cool was that year?"

26:25Jawad MirYeah. Because you were loving what you do.

26:28Danny BilsonYeah.

26:28Jawad MirAnd yeah. And that's the key.

26:30Danny BilsonAnd getting stuff made. You know, you know.

26:32Jawad MirYeah.

26:34Danny BilsonYou know.

26:35Jawad MirYeah.

26:35Danny BilsonThat's, that's, that's 70% of it, right? Just getting it made. Then getting it to good is another thing, but.

26:43Jawad MirAnd getting people to watch is another thing.

26:46Danny BilsonI think if you get it to good, that can take care of itself one way or the other.

26:49Jawad MirWell, in the '90s, yes. Now, it's a little different ballgame, because there's so much stuff out there. You know, unless you have your own audience that you've built online…

27:00Danny BilsonYeah

27:00Jawad Mir... It's really, it's really challenging. Like, you know, you can make a great film, but if it doesn't get marketed or nobody picks it up, then nobody knows about it, right? So, but it is, it, that's just the nature of business. And at the end of the day, you know, even if one person sees it and it has impact their life, that's all that matters.

27:20Danny BilsonAnd to the '90s TV, millions and millions of people watched The Flash, and we were canceled after one year.

27:28Jawad MirGood Lord.

27:28Danny BilsonAnd with a 16... We were canceled with a 16 share. You know, that's, like, insane now, right? We were canceled with a 16 share and traded for a show with a 17 share, because the head of CBS' bonus was tied to share percentage points. That's what we were told the next year. And we were the only show at CBS that had a young audience at that time. So that sucked. And then The Rocketeer not getting a sequel sucked also, 'cause it didn't open, right? Robin Hood crushed it that weekend.

27:58Jawad MirYeah.

27:58Danny BilsonI think it did, like, 40 million lifetime or something.

28:00Jawad MirYeah.

28:00Danny BilsonHowever, we're here talking about it. I think it's definitely one of the, if not the now most beloved live action Disney films of the '90s. Is there another one?

28:17Jawad MirNo, I think that's... If there's a number two, it's probably Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, but not many people know about it.

28:22Danny BilsonThat was '80…

28:24Jawad Mir9.

28:24Danny Bilson'89, right?

28:26Jawad MirYeah. Well, I kinda, yeah, I classify it as the '90s.

28:28Danny BilsonBut Honey, I Shrunk the Kids was m… way more, was hugely successful.

28:31Jawad MirTrue. Oh, you're talking about something. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you look at the live action movies now by Disney, right? Like, it's all the remakes of the animation, which I have, I don't care to see. I'm not interested.

28:43Danny BilsonMe neither.

28:44Jawad MirRight?

28:44Danny BilsonNot so much.

28:44Jawad MirRight? And I'm glad Rocketeer doesn't have a sequel, as much as you wish it did, because it may have…

28:50Danny BilsonWell, I wished it did under our, pens. You know what I mean? The ones they've tried to make, I've tried to have my agent call. Nobody ever wants the original writers anywhere near something years later. Never. Same thing with Trancers was being developed. They, it was like nobody wants to talk to me. Or the Flash TV show, nobody wanted to talk to me. It's really, it's just the way it is.

29:17Jawad MirIs that why you partly went into games?

29:25Danny BilsonWell, I love games, okay? And when we finished The Sentinel and Viper in '99, 2000, we had been in Canada, and we'd done, like, 132 hours in Canada in the, in the three years previous between those shows. And we got back, and our agent said, "Well, you guys have been off the grid for a while, and nobody knows who you are. How's your movie career?" And it was like, "What?" Like, we weren't doing enough m… marketing and selling during those years while we were making those shows. And there's another little side story behind it that's just stupid. So at the same time, I was offered a gig at EA. Paul and I were working on The Sims, which was kind of in trouble at the time.

30:15Danny BilsonBut we were part of the team that helped ship it, let's just say that. And we were co-producers on that. And after that, they offered me a job as a vice president. And… You know, I just kind of followed, and I said, "Okay, as long as I can keep writing." So Paul and I kept writing, and we both worked at EA, and then did both for another, whatever, 15 years, something like that. But I became a senior executive in the game business, and now I run the game design school at USC, which I've run for, like, 10 years. But I still work. I mean, I wrote Five Bloods during that time, and... You know what I mean? It's like, I still write. I still have stuff…

30:53Jawad MirYeah

30:54Danny Bilson... Scripts going on. Working on some games. But yeah, so the game thing popped up when the mo… when TV and movies were kind of saying rethink. And look, I love games. I love senior leadership jobs, as long as I could keep writing, and we just did both.

31:18Danny BilsonPaul was sort of the senior writer at EA and then at THQ, where I went, and I was an executive for a bunch of years.

31:27Jawad MirYou know, we are in that time of, the way everything is evolving for the last 15, 20 years. Streaming, right? And gaming industry has gone through another huge, increase, like it's such a big industry. And even Netflix now has been sort of trying to merge the two together, right?

31:52Danny BilsonYeah.

31:52Jawad MirIn very, different attempts. Maybe there is a full circle for you. Maybe in due time you might be involved in a film that is like a game ex… gaming experience, right? You never know.

32:05Danny BilsonWell, you never know. I mean, I just keep writing, for fun and profit…

32:12Jawad MirYeah

32:12Danny Bilson... To be honest. It's what I'm most comfortable doing. I've done all this leadership stuff, directing, producing, executive, being executive, being, running this, you know, being a chair of this department for a long time. What I'm most comfortable doing, and I get the most joy out of, is just writing, doing creative work. For sure.

32:34Jawad MirI agree with you. I agree with you.

32:36Danny BilsonFor sure.

32:37Jawad MirIt is, it is…

32:37Danny BilsonBut you gotta make a living and…

32:39Jawad MirYeah

32:39Danny Bilson... And students are great. Like, I'm not gonna say they're not. I mean, we manage to have one of the top game schools in the world for…

32:47Jawad MirAmazing

32:47Danny Bilson... Well, for the last years and years and years. And, students are interesting and their creative is interesting. But for me personally, I think I get the most joy out of doing my own creative.

33:04Jawad MirYeah, because that's who y… that's something you grew up with, but you're actually putting your inner self out there in the writing consciously or subconsciously, right? And that's, that's…

33:14Danny BilsonThat's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is, like, the only teacher I ever had, the only writing teacher that Paul and I ever had was John Milius, who is very ill right now. But, and then we got to work with him later on, but he always... He said, like, the most inspiring thing to us. Like, there's a few things he taught us back in 1980 that stuck with me forever, and one of the most important ones is, "Write the movie you wanna see the most." And that's super powerful, and that's where all the in… that's what I like about writing, is it's, is I can do whatever I want and I'm in complete control. And now I'm really fast 'cause I've been doing it for 50 years, and I don't worry about it. I just throw stuff down and rewrite. I mean, I could talk about that. I mean, I teach it, so I could talk about that.

34:01Jawad MirPlease do. Please do.

34:02Danny BilsonLike, that... What I'll tell you a little bit about it. I mean, it's, like, what... You know, at USC, Jack Epps, the guy who wrote Top Gun originally, is one of the… ... Screenwriting teachers. And I'm, was pretty close with him for a long time. We did a lot of projects together at school. And his whole thing was writing is rewriting. Just throw down your first draft. Don't even think about it. Just get to the end and start rewriting. Which was the opposite of how Paul and I wrote for years and years. We would grind through every line together, arguing. It was, like, ridiculous. At one point we lived in separate spaces, so we started splitting up scenes and working on... Before Zoom, it was Google Hangouts or whatever it was.

34:47Jawad MirYeah, and Google Meet.

34:49Danny BilsonYeah. And, then we started splitting stuff up and getting faster, but once I just unlocked just throw it down, do the, just, and then rewrite, I'm, like, crazy fast now, and a much better writer. Like, I've become a better writer since I joined the faculty at USC, after writing for a zillion years, right? And just hearing what the other professors do and how they talk about stuff, 'cause we, like I s… Jack said, every professor is their own textbook, and that's kind of... I've, my theories are mine. It's just sort of I reverse engineered what I've been doing for 50 years. And for me, it comes down to two things: Why will anybody care about it, and is it surprising? And I think those two things, beat for beat, the whole piece, scene for scene, character, moments, everything comes down to those two things. There's gotta be a reason that they'll care about it and it's gotta be surprising. 'Cause if they know what's happening, they're out, right?

35:45Jawad MirYeah.

35:46Danny BilsonAnd…

35:46Jawad MirEspecially nowadays.

35:48Danny BilsonYeah. And then I just go, you know, and there's some subsets of that. But foundationally, that's my core theory. And then it comes down to one other big question, which is understanding clearly what the protagonist wants. I don't get into wants and needs. That's a little too complicated for my head. But what the protagonist wants, what their objective is, what the antagonist wants, whatever the antagonist is, and the antagonist could just be an opposing force to whatever the…

36:18Danny Bilson... Protagonist wants. And then most importantly, what are the stakes? What happens if the protagonist loses, if the antagonist wins? And those, that question, plus my first thing, that's kinda it. And then I have more subsets of that. But I've developed a… A teaching of writing based on reverse engineering what I've done for years and years, and listening to a little bit of other folks, but not so much. I mean, I added the writing is rewriting thing from Jack, and it's interesting, right? 'Cause for years and years and years, I just wrote. I didn't think about how I was doing it, honestly, 'cause I wasn't trained in a writing school, right? I just had one sort of master class from John Milius live in those days. And we just wrote, and we just wrote. We learned everything. Paul and I learned everything about writing from watching movies, honestly.

37:15Jawad MirYeah. I… I… I completely agree with you, man. I… I… I'll tell you a little story. So I have been in production for 25 years. I have shot hundreds of thou… thousands of times, like ridiculous amount of times. I've edited so much, right? And I've all these ideas in my head of writing scripts, but I'm not a writer, right? That's the idea that I had sort of put in my own head, that I'm not a writer.

37:39Jawad MirAnd I came up with this concept for a short that I wanna turn into a feature. It's about Palestine and Israel. And I wrote it, and I didn't show it to anybody for maybe few months, and then I showed it to my DP, who's the, my close friend. He's the worst critic of anything. Like, he will never tell you that anything is great. Like, he'll tell you it sucks, right? And I showed it to him, and he's like, "This is really good. You should make into a film." I'm like, "Really?" Right? And I thought, okay, maybe it was a fluke. And then I did a feature script of another story that I wrote, and that was received well. And I realized it's not because my writing was great. It was because I had edited and shot and directed…

38:20Danny BilsonRight

38:20Jawad Mir... So many things over the years…

38:21Danny BilsonRight

38:22Jawad Mir... That my brain was able to figure out what to cut, where to cut, and how to cut it.

38:28Danny BilsonRight. And also writing for the visual medium because you're seeing it. Look, that's me, too. I mean, look, I see the movie, and I write it down on paper, right? I'm not doing it from another context.

38:40Jawad MirYeah.

38:40Danny BilsonSo that allows for the visual storytelling, right? Some people... 'Cause you know what you don't have to say, right, with work.

38:48Jawad MirYou see it.

38:49Danny BilsonThat's really important, right? Especially most of my work is, like, in my notes at school, for instance, with young writers, is cut. Cut every word. Cut every word you don't need. Cut every word you don't need because they overwrite. So that's, you know... And those are all my theories. Doesn't mean they work for everybody.

39:11Jawad MirYeah.

39:11Danny BilsonBut I share them. And… and look, the theory that I profess at school is that every le… my big lecture always starts with this class is… is a hardware store, and you're gonna build your own toolbox, meaning that we have a lot of professors. They're all professionals at USC, right? 95% are all professional filmmakers, game makers, animators, all that film, 'cause we're all part of the film school. Well, us and the engineering school. And it's like everybody's gonna have a different thing to say, so the students should just take what works for them. Like, I don't think there's any one way. It's just what tools work best for you to get your stories told. And that's sort of my theory. Since you asked in this Rocketeer interview, I went off a little bit on…

40:00Jawad MirNo. This is good. I love it

40:02Danny Bilson... Teaching theory.

40:03Jawad MirI love it

40:03Danny Bilson... I never… nobody's ever asked me that in a podcast before. It's kinda cool. So yeah, that's kind of foundationally, but I'm not... You know, I became a teacher 'cause it was there, and I wasn't busy at the time, and my dad always said, "You know, someday when we retire in this business, there's always college professor." Well, I haven't retired, but there were times when I wasn't working, I was always doing that as an adjunct, and then I became full-time. So... And it's still not my whole job. That's just one thing I do, right?

40:33Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's phenomenal. Listen, I'm all about very raw conversations. I, you know, I enjoy just kinda going on a tangent. It's, it's really good that you're doing that. And the… I… Quentin Tarantino said something along the lines of, maybe he got it from your teacher. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was like something along the lines of in his own foul language, he said that, "Make the movie that nobody's ever made before that you want to see." Right? And that's…

41:05Danny BilsonHe added the no... So the thing about Tarantino is he's also a student of John Milius.

41:12Jawad MirIs he?

41:12Danny BilsonThat's straight up, yes.

41:14Jawad MirOkay.

41:14Danny BilsonAnd the other thing is Tarantino and Roger Avery…

41:20Jawad MirYes

41:20Danny Bilson... When they worked at, when they worked at the video store.

41:23Jawad MirVideo store, yeah.

41:24Danny BilsonIt's true, okay? In El Segundo or whatever it was. That's when we made Trancers, came out on VHS, and Roger Avery came in to talk to Paul and I when we were at Empire in Fairfax, that little company, and he wanted… I think he wanted to do a B movie, but also he was like, "You know, Quentin loves Trancers." And I remembered that, but when I saw Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, which I loved…

41:52Jawad MirYeah

41:52Danny Bilson... That ending was pure Milius. Pure Milius. And I think I read later on Tarantino said something the same thing. Yeah, it was pure Milius. So Quentin and Paul and I were all absolutely students of John's, and there's not many of us, right? Literally, there's the three of us. I can't speak to others. But definitely that was the guy who said the same thing to him that he said to us, and maybe I interpreted it my way or Quentin interpreted his way, right? But it's the same thing.

42:26Jawad MirYeah, 100%. Going back to Rocketeer as we sort of wrap things up.

42:31Danny BilsonCool.

42:31Jawad MirWhat I would love to know, when did you… I mean, even though it got crashed at the box office because of Robin Hood…

42:38Danny BilsonYeah

42:38Jawad Mir... Right? The Kevin Costner and Morgan Freeman movie. When did you…

42:41Danny BilsonHilarious, right?

42:42Jawad MirYeah. It, I will say this, it was a great film, but if I was to remember one or the other, Rocketeer stands out more for me.

42:52Danny BilsonThere's no contest, I don't think.

42:53Jawad MirRight? And

42:54Danny BilsonLook, I'm a big Costner fan, but him as Robin Hood was too weird for me, and I'm a big fan. Like Field of Dreams and Dances with Wolves, and, you know, I think he's really has his place in film history. But Ro… Robin Hood is not his best moment.

43:12Jawad MirI love the music from Robin Hood.

43:14Danny BilsonOh, sure.

43:15Jawad MirThe, yeah, the theme was amazing. But, with Rock…

43:17Danny BilsonWho wrote that, do you remember? Was it Jerry Golds… who was it?

43:22Jawad MirI think it was James Horner, Howard Shore.

43:24Danny BilsonWell, Horner did The Rocketeer.

43:26Jawad MirSo there was probably Howard Shore. Let me just look at, right.

43:29Danny BilsonYeah, it was Howard Shore.

43:29Jawad MirIt was, it was someone, it's, someone, popular

43:34Danny BilsonHorner did The Rocketeer, and I remember being on the scoring stage, and it was really cool.

43:40Jawad MirMichael Kamen and Brian Adams.

43:42Danny BilsonOkay.

43:43Jawad MirYeah.

43:43Danny BilsonYeah.

43:43Jawad MirSo he used someone famous for it.

43:44Danny BilsonI mean, look, yeah, those guys are all good.

43:47Jawad MirYeah.

43:48Danny BilsonYeah, but w… we were on the stage when he recorded. That score is fantastic, The Rocketeer score.

43:52Jawad MirIt is.

43:54Danny BilsonI mean, they use it at the parks all the time, the Disney parks.

43:58Jawad MirOkay, I have only been to Disneyland once in 2013, so I don't remember hearing it, but I'll keep an eye on it if I go again.

44:07Danny BilsonYeah, they use it. They use it in Soarin', that flying thing. You know, the... Well, you were only there in 2013. Yeah, it was on there.

44:15Jawad MirYeah, so it's, what is it called?

44:17Danny BilsonThey had it. Soarin', you know the one where you're sitting in an IMAX screen kinda flying around in a hang glider?

44:22Jawad MirOh, right. Yes.

44:24Danny BilsonThey definitely use it in the queue there 'cause it's an aviation thing.

44:29Jawad MirI didn't pay attention to it.

44:32Danny BilsonThat's okay.

44:34Jawad MirBut, with Rocketeer, when did you realize, like, whatever it was, a year or two year later or five years later, that this film has had, is having impact on people, right? Was it like the DVD just…

44:47Danny BilsonNot until, not, honestly... Well, yeah, Paul died in 2018. It must've been 2017. It was when he was dying. Like, we were at his, I was at his house, and it's when they green lit the animated show, which of course they wouldn't let us anywhere near either. And I said, I remember sitting on his couch saying to him, "Man, I think The Rocketeer is actually a hit now." Like, that's when I really realized. And I knew that it had a following on VHS and Disney Channel and all that, but I didn't know that it was actually a hit. You know what I mean? That it was, it was in 2017 when Paul was dying and I was sitting on his couch with him and reading that they had green lit that thing, and I said, "You know." Well, what I said was, "Our stuff is way more popular now than when we made it." The Flash and The Rocketeer, right? 'Cause we'd also watched an episode of that new Flash so… where they did what we did in the old days and put, like, comic book authors' names for the streets, and they had some crime on the corner of Bilson and DeMayo.

45:56Danny BilsonAnd somebody told me that, so I, we were at Paul's house, and I, we watched that bit. And then that thing came out in the, in the thing about The Rocketeer, and I said, "You know, it's weird that our stuff is way more popular now than when we made it."

46:10Jawad MirYeah.

46:10Danny BilsonAnd we didn't get to make more of it because it wasn't popular enough then, but that's just the way it is. We did really great without any big hits. Our biggest hit was the Sims video game. I mean, there's no question.

46:21Jawad MirI was gonna say, I remember in the early 2000s it was, like, as equally big if not bigger than Candy Crush or Angry Birds…

46:29Danny BilsonMassive

46:29Jawad Mir... In its own it… right? It was huge.

46:31Danny BilsonBro, Sims is a massive fra…

46:32Jawad MirYeah.

46:32Danny BilsonBillions and billions of dollar franchise over…

46:34Jawad MirYeah

46:35Danny Bilson... 25 years. Yeah.

46:37Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's, it's phenomenal.

46:39Danny BilsonIf you look at box office or gross on something that we, our names are on, Sims is the biggest financial hit I think we ever got near.

46:48Jawad MirAmazing.

46:49Danny BilsonYeah, I mean, look, it's, it's a 25-year game franchise. That's billions and billions and billions of dollars, so forget it.

47:00Jawad MirWith Rocketeer, well, I was, it's not really a question. I was just gonna say that it's amazing, not at the moment when things are not looking great for a film that you work on, right? Like, it doesn't really receive the recognition that you think it should or you wish it could've.

47:17Jawad MirBut then it, people still know about it after 30, 35 years, that even though it's a long time to realize that means you made something that survived the test of times, and that to me is the biggest thing. And that's something that I tell myself, too, not because I wanna make myself feel better. It's because I know when I've done something, when I've directed a film, it is a really good film because people like it, but did it make amazing money? No. But I know it will live through time, and that is the biggest thing that you can do because money comes and goes, right? But the recognition of your work…

47:51Danny BilsonLook, so…

47:52Jawad Mir... Stays for a long time.

47:53Danny BilsonYeah. No question that I feel that way, Paul felt that way. And, but you know what, honestly, even when it didn't make money, I wasn't crushed.

48:04Jawad MirYeah, it's fine.

48:05Danny BilsonI got to make The Rocketeer.

48:07Jawad MirExactly.

48:07Danny BilsonYou know, honestly, I got to make The Rocketeer that we found as a comic book we loved. I got to make something we loved, and we had a big premiere. They opened the El Capitan Theatre, and they had a, Hollywood Boulevard shut down for a carnival.

48:20Jawad MirYeah.

48:20Danny BilsonSo it was a really great evening, that premiere, and it was also a goal in my life. I didn't talk about this, but when they flipped it to Disney, the producers were devastated. They thought, "We're dead at the box office," right? "It's gonna kill us." And Disney did it because Honey, I Shrunk the Kids had done well under that brand in a live action film.

48:41Danny BilsonAnd but, Paul and I were like, "Hey, it was one of our life goals to make a Disney movie." So we were happy we made a Disney movie. We had a big premiere. We made The Rocketeer. It didn't work. We didn't get a sequel, but it wasn't about that for us. I don't wanna, I don't wanna…

49:00Jawad MirI know, I know

49:00Danny Bilson... I want you to under… For us, we were really happy with that. Yes, we were disappointed we didn't get to make another one. Probably more disappointed that we've ne… that we were blocked out of every version of every script they've ever done since for The Rocketeer, 'cause they've tried two or three sequel scripts. That probably, that reality of Hollywood is probably much more disappointing than the box office. But to really echo your point, at the time, we were thrilled to make The Rocketeer and to make a Disney movie. And last week, when I went to the 35th anniversary screening, I realized because the movie's period, it doesn't date, and people love it, and they will, and kids who haven't seen it yet will see it, and it's a, it's a parents to kid movie. You know what I mean?

49:58Jawad MirIt is.

49:59Danny BilsonIt is. Parents saw it when they were a kid, and they share it with their kid. I couldn't ask for anything more.

50:06Jawad MirI will tell you one little thing. This might sound funny, but you probably would wanna hear it, the impact that it had on me. It came out in '91, so I was 14. And I probably saw it whenever it came on VHS, I would say early 1992. Between the tra… the theatrical and the VHS release, which used to be a long window at the time. I remember we, I took a, I went to No Fr… like there's a grocery store here, No Frills, in Canada, and I, they used to have these empty boxes and, you know, for moving purposes or for groceries. So I would, I grabbed one, and I cut it in such a way, and I wrapped it around my shoulder, and I would just pretend to be a Rocketeer at the age of 14. I mean, that's a pretty grown-up age to be a superhero.

50:52Danny BilsonYeah.

50:53Jawad MirBut it certainly did have an impact, right? So I just thought I should share that. You probably, you probably would appreciate it.

50:59Danny BilsonThat's cool. Where in Canada did you grow up?

51:01Jawad MirI, in Toronto. All of Toronto.

51:04Danny BilsonOh, okay.

51:04Jawad MirYeah.

51:04Danny BilsonYeah, I lived in Vancouver for four or five years when I was doing all those TV shows.

51:08Jawad MirI love Vancouver.

51:09Danny BilsonIt was nice.

51:09Jawad MirYeah, Vancouver's still big for film. Vancouver's still big for film.

51:13Danny BilsonYeah, I know.

51:13Jawad MirYeah.

51:13Danny BilsonNo, Vancouver, I love living up there. I'd go back.

51:18Jawad MirAnd are you in LA right now?

51:19Danny BilsonYeah.

51:20Jawad MirOkay, so that's like a three…

51:22Danny BilsonI was in LA to see the games.

51:22Jawad MirYeah, that's true. Three hours flight.

51:24Danny BilsonRight.

51:24Jawad MirThree and a half hours flight.

51:26Danny BilsonYeah. Oh, Vancouver's two and a half.

51:29Jawad MirFrom LA, it's... Oh, Calgary's three and a half.

51:31Danny BilsonYeah. I w… I lived there, too, for about a year, 'cause we did the first year of Viper in Calgary, which was cool until it got cold. And then we couldn't drive the cars on the ice.

51:42Jawad MirWell…

51:42Danny BilsonSo we took the whole production and moved it to Vancouver to double up with The Sentinel, our other production. Then we stayed in Vancouver. But Calgary, they, the reason we were there is 'cause they said, "Yeah, we'll close the streets downtown so you can race cars." Which was great until

51:58Jawad MirIt got cold

51:59Danny Bilson... Until the ice and then the nor… what do you call that?

52:02Jawad MirFreezing rain?

52:03Danny BilsonWhat do you call when it all comes in and melts in, like, one day? It's a... It's not a nor'easter. That's another thing. It's, it's something that happens up in Canada where all of a sudden, the temperature goes up to, like, the 50s, and everything melts, and then it drops back down, like, another day later, and then it, like…

52:22Jawad MirI…

52:22Danny BilsonI forgot what it's called.

52:23Jawad MirI mean, I have never experienced that 36 years being in Canada, so I don't know.

52:28Danny BilsonIt's a Calgary thing.

52:29Jawad MirMaybe it is. Well, I'm glad you probably weren't in, I'm glad you weren't in Edmonton, which is about two hours away north.

52:35Danny BilsonI've been there.

52:35Jawad MirOver there, it gets minus 51, which is, like…

52:38Danny BilsonYeah, I've been up there

52:38Jawad Mir... Ridiculously cold, right? So yeah.

52:41Danny BilsonWrote a movie to shoot the Edmonton Mall once. Didn't go. It was a Disney thing.

52:45Jawad MirEdmonton Mall? That…

52:46Danny BilsonAnyway. Yeah.

52:47Jawad MirAwesome.

52:47Danny BilsonIt was cool. It had a submarine in it.

52:50Jawad MirAwesome. Well, listen, Danny, I really appreciate your time.

52:53Danny BilsonNo, thanks for asking.

52:54Jawad MirThank you so much. And, I occasionally visit LA. If I'm in town, and if you have availability…

53:01Danny BilsonLook me up

53:01Jawad Mir... I would love to connect with you, maybe grab lunch or dinner.

53:04Danny BilsonSure. All right, man.

53:06Jawad MirThank you.

53:06Danny BilsonTake care.

53:07Jawad MirThank you, sir.

53:07Danny BilsonAnd thanks for the talk.

53:09Jawad MirThank you.