'Verity', Cinematographer, Jim Frohna, Starring Anne Hathaway

0:00Jawad MirArtists seek validation no matter…

0:02Jim FrohnaSure

0:02Jawad Mir... What… I think all of us do, right?

0:05Jim FrohnaYes.

0:05Jawad MirYou know, we may not admit it all the time, but that's pretty much what we do what we do for… ... Is getting validation of the work that we do. As an artist yourself, how have you sort of through your career looking for validation, aside from creating amazing work?

0:21Jim FrohnaYeah, no, I think that's a very good question and something... It is funny that I, because I've actually been thinking about that quite recently because of that quote in the movie. Dakota Johnson's character at one point says, like, "I've not had anybody, you know, look me in the eye and say your work matters to me," or y… and she says, "Your, you know, my writing matters to someone." Like f… my example for you is, so I'm one of seven kids, right?

0:46Jim FrohnaAnd my father passed away, my mother's still alive. We do these family Zooms. I said to them, "I'm so excited for Verity to be coming out. It's gonna be in theaters." Like, so many of our projects these days are right, go right to streaming or I'm doing TV…

0:59Jim Frohna... That you don't expect will be theatrical. But this is like a big, you know, it's a big deal to have a movie in a theater. And I will tell you that after the opening weekend, I was like, okay, so two of the eight others saw the movie, or seven others saw the movie in theaters. And then this past Sunday we had our next Zoom. And the part of me that is still like the, you know, the boy in the family of all these kids, why haven't… I'm thinking to myself, "Why haven't you all seen the movie?"

1:28Jawad MirI went to see Verity yesterday, so full disclaimer. I did… didn't know much about the film other than the trailer I'd seen and the terrible review that I'd seen. And... No, I wouldn't say terrible, bad reviews, but the audience review has been pretty decent, right?

1:43Jim FrohnaYeah.

1:43Jawad MirSeven out of 10. And I saw the film. I think there were some, to be fair, things that I probably didn't like in terms of storytelling and all that, but what stood out for me the most, man, was cinematography.

1:56Jim FrohnaOh, nice.

1:57Jawad MirI'll, I'll tell you a few moments that st… are stuck in my mind, and you probably will probably not think much of them. You know, when the way the camera was set up when the blood was being washed into the sink…

2:09Jawad Mir... When the coffee was being stirred, when the pizza… ... Was in the oven…

2:13Jim Frohnahuh

2:13Jawad Mir... When they were in the restaurant and you have like a far, not necessarily over the shoulder, but like far out and you have objects in the foreground just like edging at the, you know, edge of the lens.

2:24Jawad MirAnd it really defined the tone and the tension of the film. That cinematography was like the best part for me in that film.

2:32Jim FrohnaNice. Well, I appreciate all that. And I will say that Michael Showalter, the director and I, came up with a term, and it's n… we did, we did not invent the idea of those kind of close-ups, obviously, but I'm gonna…

2:43Jawad MirYeah

2:43Jim Frohna... You know, explain what I mean. But that we ended up calling them crunchy close-ups. I mean, for the most part, you're talking about like when she puts her finger in the, in the coffee mug and stirs it and…

2:53Jawad MirYeah

2:53Jim Frohna... You know, there's a close-up of the lock in the bathroom at the beginning when he, you know, locks them in while she's clearing off the blood. And in preparing for the movie and sort of, you know, being inspired by and kind of diving deep into like Hitchcock and early Brian De Palma, you know, there's something about the details, right? And you wouldn't think that, you know, a shot of the pizza slice or whatever it is, like these sort of innocuous little moments with the coffee mug, that those build tension or build tone. But they really do, right? And it's like those little nitty-gritty, the crunchy details are what we wanted to make sure that we got in every scene. And some of them, you know, show up as you experienced. Some of the shot did not. But, yeah, that's actually one of my favorite parts and pleasure of like, ooh, I, you know, being on set and realizing we didn't think of this, you know, crunchy close-up, but now we're gonna go for it.

3:55Jim FrohnaAnd that again, was one of the pleasurable things about diving into this genre as well, like getting to play in the playground of psychological thriller.

4:06Jawad MirYeah. No, it was really well done. I mean, you talked about Hitchcock and De Palma. I also thought it reminded me of one of my favorite films, What Lies Beneath, which is also inspired by Hitchcock.

4:16Jim FrohnaOh, for sure, yeah.

4:16Jawad MirYou know, with Robert Zemeckis and Don Burgess, who shot it.

4:20Jim FrohnaYeah.

4:20Jawad MirAnd, but in… The use of long lenses, the blue, you know, because shot in winter, the blue tints, cel… ... Seldomly blue elements, really like... Yeah, it's just, there was just something about it that kept, you know, even if the story was not 100% there, the cinematography really kept hooking you on and pulling you in. And I just thought, to me it felt, another, there was another scene, I don't wanna reveal too much, but I think it was the questioning of the police…

4:51Jawad Mir... In a scene, not in the end, in the middle part…

4:54Jim FrohnaYeah

4:54Jawad Mir... Towards the middle part.

4:55Jim FrohnaYeah.

4:55Jawad MirSo you have the ch… you have a character in the foreground and, you know, and she's sitting there. In the, in the background there's windows and… ... There's a couple of people standing there. I literally thought for a second, or maybe it was, you tell me, that they were sort of two different frames blended in because…

5:11Jim FrohnaSo…

5:11Jawad Mir... The way you sort of... Was it, was it that or?

5:15Jim FrohnaGo ahead and finish your thought. I'll, I'll tell you. Yeah.

5:17Jawad MirYeah, so that's what I thought, but when a similar shot came in the end, I felt that, okay, maybe there's one composition, it's not two.

5:26Jim FrohnaSo in that moment that we're talking about where there is a, you know, a character being interrogated by the police and another one being, you know, questioned by some other officers within the Crawford home, right? So that is actually a split diopter shot. And it's something that our direct, you know, homage to... You know, many filmmakers have used a split diopter shot here and there, but Brian De Palma loves a split diopter shot. He will use it both in moments of suspense, but also when, like there's a moment in, body double where somebody's on the phone on a, at a payphone, and there's a character two phones down, and rather than having to cut back and forth between this character and that character, he uses the split diopter. So we're basically watching both things play out in the same moment. And he… It's a really fun tool. Again, it's sort of like I was saying with the crunchy close-up thing, it's, it's like here's another way that we got to kind of use new tools and try things, you know, 'cause neither Michael nor I had ever done a thriller or, you know, an erotic thriller of any kind.

6:38Jim FrohnaAnd so a-a-again, it was, it was fun to use these new tools and, you know, grow new creative muscles, whatever. But that's one of my favorite shots as well because, again, there's, there's drama to the moment, right? Because the character in the foreground is, you know, in distress, and we're right up with her, right? But then you also know that she's maybe withholding something from the other person who's being interrogated, and so the idea of playing this at the same time. And I even like, you know, with the split diopter, you get the, you get… you see, like, this fuzzy dividing line. Like, you can never have…

7:18Jawad MirThat, yeah. Yeah

7:19Jim Frohna... Pure and clear, right? And it's, it is true. Like, I actually have had that same thought that you had, which is, like, it almost could be two images pushed up against each other. But it was in-red and, again, just a real fun m-way to, you know, cover scenes and d… again, speak in the language of this, you know, genre.

7:41Jawad MirWow, that's awesome. I think also I had, John Axelra… Ek-Axelrad, I think his last name is the editor of End of Oak Street, so they did the similar technique in that.

7:51Jim FrohnaOkay.

7:51Jawad MirBut that was, but that was a little bit different. So that was more like if there's a person, you know, sitting here and a person sitting here, and the camera is right here. Right? So instead of having the back person out of focus, they're both in focus, and I think he was talking about a similar tool that can do…

8:09Jim FrohnaYeah. I would imagine so. Yeah.

8:11Jawad MirYeah.

8:11Jim FrohnaYeah. And for…

8:11Jawad MirI love it. I love it

8:13Jim Frohna... I watched ton… You know, as I tried to go as deep as I could, so I watched tons of De Palma's movies, but then also, like, found as many interviews and, I think it was Noah Baumbach, who's a huge fan of De Palma's and, like, did these lengthy interviews that are on YouTube. But, you know, one thing he was like, "I want the audience to be," you know, he wants to keep the audience invested in every moment. And so he's like, "If there's something soft in the background, they're not gonna care what that is because I'm saying only look here. But if you have to look in these both places, not only is it great for moments of tension, but it also is just efficient." He's like, "I don't need to cut a… I don't need to cut away to this other character or do a reverse." It's like they're…

8:53Jawad MirYeah

8:53Jim Frohna... Both in the same moment. So yeah, it's, it, yeah. It was, it, again, fun.

8:58Jawad MirIt's, it's l-less setups, right? Less setups, the…

9:02Jim FrohnaYeah

9:02Jawad Mir... More time to do other things.

9:03Jim FrohnaYeah. Yeah. That was… Yeah. Yes. Right. So there's an efficiency, but there's also, like, what it builds in terms of, like, the drama of, like, m… you know, the viewer toggling back and forth, like, "What's going down over there? What's happening over here?" And then, y-you know, in… there's another moment in the movie that we use it for pure tension and suspense, where two characters are on the left of frame, lost in their own kind of passion, and then there's another, you know, figure that appears in the, in the right part of the frame, way deep in the shadows. And so we, the audience, know something's coming, someone's coming, and these, the other two characters do not. And, so yeah, just m… things like that. Again, we're the sort of, like, sprinkles on the, on the fun cake that we are making with this movie.

9:49Jawad MirSweet.

9:50Jim FrohnaYeah.

9:50Jawad MirReally sweet. I'll jump to a little bit of a different question, and we'll come back to the film. There was a lot of talk about in the film about validation, especially as an artist. Right? Artists seek validation no matter…

10:04Jim FrohnaSure

10:05Jawad Mir... What… I think all of us do, right?

10:07Jim FrohnaYes.

10:07Jawad MirWe may not admit it all the time, but that's pretty much what we do what we do for… ... Is getting validation of the work that we do. As an artist yourself, how have you sort of through your career, you know, looking for validation, aside from creating amazing work, and how does that… has that ever affected you as a human being or as a f… as a cinematographer? It could be in the past, it could be in the present. This validation is very important to all of us, right?

10:36Jim FrohnaSure. Yeah, no, I think that's a very good question and something… It is funny that I… because I've actually been thinking about that quite recently because of that quote in the movie where, you know, Dakota Johnson's character at one point says, like, "I've not had anybody, you know, look me in the eye and say, 'Your work matters to me.'" Or y… and she says, "Your..." "My writing matters to someone." And it's funny to be at this point in my career, you know, I'm fifty-eight years old, and you would think you would kind of outgrow that desire or that need. But you're…

11:12Jawad MirYeah

11:12Jim Frohna... Exactly right, man. It's like it is part of what we're doing. And I also just saw, the movie The Debut, Jesse Eisenberg's new movie with Julianne Moore. Do you know about this movie?

11:24Jawad MirWhat's it called?

11:26Jim FrohnaThe Debut.

11:27Jawad MirYes, I've seen the… I know it premiered at TIFF. I think it showed up at TIFF. I know the trailer. I've seen the trailer a few times.

11:33Jim FrohnaYeah.

11:33Jawad MirYeah.

11:33Jim FrohnaSo she in that movie is very briefly, right, she is, lives in the suburbs.

11:38Jawad MirAn actress. Yeah.

11:39Jim FrohnaYeah. Well, she is actually not in… She auditions at a community theater run by Paul Giamatti.

11:45Jawad MirRight.

11:45Jim FrohnaBut it's really…

11:46Jawad MirRight

11:46Jim Frohna... A story of this woman who feels completely invisible, and n… her kids don't hear her husband doesn't see her anymore. There's no connection or, you know, love or whatever in the home, and she finds herself pulled into this world of the theater where she gets this validation that we're now talking about. And it's very… it's a great movie. It's a, it's, silly and strange, and it's also a musical 'cause you're watching…

12:10Jim Frohna... The musical that's being, you know, rehearsed and performed. But it's completely about… This woman who fi-finally finds a place where she is seen and known and loved, right? I'm simplifying. There's other aspects to the movie. It's not quite…

12:28Jawad MirYeah

12:29Jim Frohna... That. But even that movie made me think, like, it… and Paul Giamatti has a speech in there where he basically says what you're saying, like that the reason why we do this is to give, you know… There's nothing like the feeling of knowing that we brought the audience, that they see wh-who we are up there, even when we're playing a character. He just… It's a longer speech, but basically to the same point of how we as human beings, we want to be heard and seen and known. And in, you know, as much as I think about that in my own life and wh-where I carry that part, like I started to say, you think you outgrow that, but you don't. And that's okay, right? It's like we are human beings and, you know... Like my example for you is, so I'm one of seven kids, right?

13:25Jim FrohnaAnd my father passed away, and my mother's still alive. We do these family Zooms, which we actually started during COVID, which is a fantastic way 'cause we're all spread out ac-across the country. But, I bring it up because it, besides it being a really lovely way to… that keeps us all connected, I said to them, "I'm so excited for Verity to be coming out. It's gonna be in theaters." Like so many of our projects these days are… right… go right to streaming or I'm doing TV shows…

13:54Jim Frohna... That you don't expect will be theatrical. But this is like a big, you know, it's a big deal to have a movie in a theater. And I will tell you that after the opening weekend, I was like, okay, so two of the, you know, eight others saw the movie, or seven others saw the movie in theaters. And then this past Sunday, we had our next Zoom. And the part of me that is still like the, you know, the boy in the family of all these kids, it's like, "Why haven't..." I'm thinking to myself, "Why haven't you all seen the movie?" So I… But I, But what comes out of my mouth is I was like, "You know, I'm excited to talk to more of you about it. I, you know, I'm looking forward to..." Like basically like nudging them.

14:32Jawad MirYeah.

14:32Jim FrohnaAnd the fact I got off that call, that's probably why I was thinking about all this, because I got off the Zoom call with my family, and I thought, one, I shouldn't have to, you know, I'm not begging them, but it's like, wouldn't you think they would just want to go see this thing? Like j… you know, "Wow, look at that." so I'll, I'll, I'll maybe I'll email you and tell you when the rest of them go see it. But it is funny like that still matters. It matters a lot, actually.

14:58Jawad MirYeah. You know, you're absolutely right, man. You're absolutely right. And I think also, we live in a day and age like where that sense of stardom is disappearing. Like, you know, there used to be this distance between the celebrity, whether it's, you know, I don't wanna use that word, but it is what it is, like, you know, actor, cinematographer, director, versus the main public, right?

15:20Jawad MirAnd that distance has completely disappeared because of Twitter, Instagram. And I think that sense of, what's the word I'm looking for? Like when somebody's right there, you don't appreciate that as much…

15:34Jim FrohnaSure

15:34Jawad Mir... Right? And I feel that is partially the reason. But at the same time, I know exactly what you mean, and I was telling this to my couple of my friends. So I come to LA, you know, maybe five, six times a year. And anytime I'm in LA, I feel like I'm at home, right? Just because it's…

15:51Jawad Mir... You know… Would I ever wanna live in LA? I don't know. But just because that whole aura of people who understand the language that you speak. Like that, like you and I talking like this, we can go on for hours. But if I just picked up like somebody, you know, one of my friends…

16:08Jim FrohnaSure

16:08Jawad Mir... They'd be like, "All right, we're done in like three minutes," right? So that…

16:11Jim FrohnaSure

16:11Jawad Mir... Again, goes back to validation because we're looking for validation from each other. I think even this is validation in a way.

16:17Jim FrohnaSure. Sure. Yeah.

16:18Jawad MirYeah.

16:19Jim FrohnaFor sure.

16:19Jawad MirAmazing, man. So you ta… you said, you know, this was your… one of the major theatrical ones. How did you get onto this film? Like, what's the story behind that?

16:29Jim FrohnaSo I mentioned Michael Showalter, the director, and we have done… we did a TV pilot together, and this was our third movie together, and we're actually gonna start prepping our fourth in a couple, like a month or so. And so it's been a really great collaboration and a great ride. And he comes… He originally comes out of comedy and then started doing more, you know, romantic comedies. He did The Big Sick, which is not a romantic comedy. That's more of a drama, but…

16:55Jawad MirYeah

16:55Jim Frohna... With comedy. That sort of put him on the map. And so, you know, we've done… The other ones were in the more, you know, lighter comedy realm, but it's just been a really great, fun collaboration. And when he, you know, he basically called me up and he was like, "You, were you ready to do something completely out of the norm for us?" And he started explaining to me about, you know, that he read this first version of the script based on the book and, he was like, "This could be a lot of fun, and this could be something where..." we basically said to each other like, "Is this, you know, do… Is this something that… Can we deliver the goods?" kind of thing. And it was a very exciting proposition to, again, as I said, like dive into this whole new genre, and so off we went. And that… it came together very quickly, I think. Like he got, you know... Trying to remember now. I think... Yes, it was like October of twenty-four, and we started filming like February of twenty-five.

18:00Jawad MirOh, wow.

18:00Jim FrohnaWhen everything… When he got the call to like, do, does he wanna do this movie. So it was, it was very fast. Like they were fast-tracking it over there at Amazon MGM and, you know, they had Hathaway in the, in the window and I'm pretty sure they already had Dakota attached then. Yeah.

18:16Jawad MirYeah. I mean, having those three stars and then having two of them as EPs, right? It does make a big difference in terms of…... The speed of the project.

18:28Jim FrohnaYes.

18:28Jawad MirAnd I think also because it was a very sort of... It mostly was the house, right? It just the…

18:36Jim FrohnaYeah

18:36Jawad Mir... That's, that's where pretty much all, I would say a good 80% of the film was shot, maybe even 90.

18:41Jim FrohnaYeah.

18:41Jawad MirAnd that sped up the process. You… lighting and lenses, right? They're a very integral part of telling any story.

18:50Jim FrohnaYeah.

18:50Jawad MirAnd I'm, obviously I'm not talking about just framing it or lit… lighting it, but depending on what the story is telling and how do you match that up with your frame and with the lighting. Were there, and I'm sure there were many, but is there a story that you can remember that gave you a scene that gave you guys a lot of challenge, and how you guys overcame it, whether it was the use of lens…

19:14Jawad Mir... Or a certain lighting that you used to take care of that?

19:19Jim FrohnaI'm gonna think about what I feel might have been challenging.

19:25Jawad MirSure.

19:25Jim FrohnaBut while I'm thinking about that, I'm gonna... I'll, I'll share that one of the things that I wanted to do and started exploring when we were doing hair and makeup and costume tests with Anne and Dakota, you know, a few weeks before filming began, is because of the way that Michael and I had talked about the movie, because he wanted a certain kind of elegance and style and k… kind of glamour to the movie, and as I mentioned, you know, diving into Hitchcock and such, it's like, well, there's a... I just kind of landed in this place where I was like, "I wanna light these women at times when it's appropriate," in, like, using old movie lighting, tungsten lighting. We have so many amazing LED tools these days, which I love.

20:12Jim FrohnaI love the speed and the versatility and everything. I was like, there's gotta... You know, for example, there's these flashbacks, like Lowen finds the hidden manuscript and starts reading it and, you know, she's... The events played out in the manuscript come to life in these scenes, right? So for example, in that scene in the bar that's, you know, heavily featured in the trailer and everywhere else, you know, Verity is at the bar drinking and, you know, her eyes lock with Jeremy's across the room. So in that scene, they're lit in a very kind of simple kind of Hollywood portraiture kind of style using tungsten lighting. I think, I can't remember all the units that we're using around the room to bring the room alive, but I was like, "That's a scene where I want them lit old school."

21:00Jim Frohna... And, we did that later on as Lowen's character is kind of going deeper and deeper into the world of Verity, and I won't give anything else away, but, like, there's a scene later, post the restaurant scene, where, you know, I wanted to evoke that same thing because of w… where she is psychologically and where she is in terms of digging deep into Verity's world. The challenges, I mean, the house was amazing, first of all. That place and, you know, huge credit to our location manager and production designer 'cause they first saw it and, you know, the location manager was like, "I gotta..." The dictate was find a house no one's ever filmed at. And she ended up looking in architectural magazines and, like, o… outside the usual steps that location managers take. And then she showed it to Amy, and it's like, it had never been used. It's this incredible place. It is, you know, in any good thriller you're gonna have a location that is like a, another character in the movie, and this place…

22:03Jawad MirRight

22:03Jim Frohna... Definitely fit the bill. But, the thing is it was like an hour, over an hour commute from New York City out to the location. It was winter. There was snow. Getting gear in and out of there was a horrendous pain. It meant that the amount that we could shoot each day, because of course when you have... Yeah, I think most actors have this, but, like, we had to abide by the rules of, like, you know, Anne Hathaway, her day starts when she leaves her pla… her house, and so part of the, she's on the clock while driving to and from location, which means for that reason, and also just getting the crew, you know, back without turnaround issues, all that stuff. It meant the amount we could shoot at the house was limited. But it was, like, th… the minute I got to the property, and same with Michael Stuhlbarg, it's like, "We gotta shoot here." Whatever we have to do to make this work, like, we'll, we'll figure it out. I was like, "I'll use less gear," you know, for the outdoor scenes or for certain scenes.

23:06Jim FrohnaWhatever, you know, it's like you say all the things because you cannot deny the power of that location. Shooting there... And by the way, all the rooms, like the main room, the kitchen, the dining room, that's all the house. The bedrooms where Verity's recuperating, the office, those are sets, right? So…

23:26Jim Frohna... And, our time at the house, we were there, you know, for like a week and a half or so, I think, in the dead of winter, and then went back when we needed to see, you know, the lake unfrozen and green on the trees and all that for a certain few scenes. But, navigating the logistics of that and then figuring out how to, you know, 'cause th… there are walls of windows, right? So I guess to answer now more directly your question, the challenges were balancing the interior and the exterior for all those night scenes, wanting to know that we're still at the real place, see the bare, you know, craggily, kind of spooky looking trees out there, you know, and the glow, the soft glow of the snow and all that, and really feel the chill at all times. That was, that was one of the challenges. And then from there, I don't know. I mean, it's funny 'cause it was not an easy shoot, but it was f… I had a blast.

24:30Jim FrohnaSo I can't think of too many other, like… ... Hardcore challenges that are like, I was never tearing my hair out. It was more like, you know, the sort of feeling like we're on this fun ride.

24:41Jawad MirAwesome. You know, a cinematographer is not normally directly heavily involved with the c… the cast, but he or she, in your case, you know, you are s… basically they are being blocked, you know, they are on the marker and all that. Working with Dakota and Josh, what was that experience like?

25:05Jim FrohnaIn terms of just…

25:07Jawad MirJust working relationship, just being in front of the camera… ... You know, the type of people they are. I'm sure they're wonderful and everything, but, you know, just the… 'Cause they're, they're all talented. They're super talented, right? And just to see them transform from whoever they are to this, these characters…

25:23Jim FrohnaSure.

25:24Jawad Mir... Especially…

25:24Jim FrohnaYeah.

25:24Jawad Mir... I think all of them are dark characters.

25:26Jim FrohnaYeah. Yes. M… I would say part of the huge pleasure of m… doing this job is a front row seat watching really good actors, and I've had the good fortune of like, you know, being in a room 10 feet away from Nicole Kidman and Meryl Streep, for example, in a, you know…

25:49Jim Frohna... Long, you know, three-page scene, and I'm operating the camera, which I used to do a lot more, particularly when handheld scenes. I did some handheld operating in Verity, but, we did a lot of handheld on that project that I'm talking about. But, so part of it is just like that front row seat feeling, right? And watching how the person that you're talking to instantly becomes the character as soon as the camera's rolling is also a pretty magical thing. And the thing that I also have learned, and, you know, actors have said to me over the years as well, that who's behind the camera matters to them. Getting… It's almost like getting back to that validation thing. It's like... And I will talk to my camera operators and say like, "Be..." You know, and I think good camera operators don't need to hear any words like this, but I think it's also worth saying out loud, which is like, "Be present." Like, "Be open." Like, "Be re… in receiving mode," right? You're making a frame, and that's great.

26:49Jim FrohnaDoesn't have to be perfect, but because perfection I don't really abide by, but…

26:53Jawad MirIt doesn't exist, yeah.

26:54Jim FrohnaYeah. But it's like, you know how to make your frame, but also just like your energy has an impact on who's right on the other side of the camera. And, that's true of any project, whether it's a comedy or, you know, a serious drama or a spooky, creepy, erotic thriller, whatever. So there's that aspect of it. And in terms of this project specifically, like Dakota Johnson and Josh Hartnett were both... I mean, they're all three, 'cause it really is like a three-hander, right? They're all incredibly professional. They were all excited to be a part of this. And people like that, they just show up and they're ready. Like, there was no kind of somebody's, you know, stalling out in their trailer, like, you know, and we're all sitting around waiting. It's like everyone was very dialed in and, you know, o… on the set on time. Everyone knew their lines, and so it makes, you know, it... You feel like everyone is totally in fully, right?

27:55Jim FrohnaEveryone's focused in. And they were sweet people and, you know, fun to, work with for sure throughout. And yeah, I think the, what was interesting is kind of overhearing conversations, particularly that Josh would have with Michael, because he, his character is sort of... And again, we won't give things away, right? But it's like his character is walking a tightrope of for himself, the, for Josh, the actor, he's like having to reconcile what is his truth, what is Jeremy's, what did or didn't Jeremy not do, right? What did Jeremy do or not do? M… and so I would hear these conversations of like what was really important to Josh or seeking Michael's guidance in terms of like, you know, "Well, if this is what we're saying happened, then what is, you know, what am I playing here?

28:55Jim FrohnaHow many layers deep do you wanna feel?" kind of thing. And I don't know, it was just, it was just fun to kind of see that being worked out in real time.

29:03Jawad MirYeah.

29:04Jim FrohnaBut yeah, they were, it was, you know, a good, again, a good bunch of people, and like I already said, it's like we're on this kind of thrill ride together.

29:11Jawad MirSo cool. You know, and Anne Hathaway has had so many films this year.

29:16Jim FrohnaYeah.

29:16Jawad MirRight? Devil Wears Prada 2, from Od… to Odyssey, End of Oak Street…

29:21Jim FrohnaYeah. Okay. Yeah

29:21Jawad Mir... Verity, and I think there's another one coming, if I'm not mistaken. But in…

29:25Jim FrohnaI think that's the last one.

29:27Jawad MirIs it the, is this is the last one of the year?

29:29Jim FrohnaYeah.

29:30Jawad MirThe range in all five, four of them is so vast, right? Especially I think, you know, Devil Wears Prada, she's already playing that character in the first film.

29:41Jim FrohnaRight.

29:42Jawad MirSo that's…

29:42Jim FrohnaYeah

29:42Jawad Mir... That's fine. Odyssey, she's amazing in. I th… End of Oak Street, she's remarkable. And…

29:48Jim FrohnaOh, cool

29:49Jawad Mir... This one is probably the most different character she plays… ... Right? And… ... And I loved in this film, you know, when the film starts, I think it was maybe the first shot or the second shot or third, when she's being interviewed.

30:05Jawad MirHer character's being interviewed. So as an audience member, I'm like, I already know, okay, this person is like a big deal. You know, she's a celebrity and da.

30:14Jim FrohnaRight.

30:14Jawad MirThat's on. But as the film progresses, you find out the backstory. And what I really appreciated was, whether it was in the book or whether it was in the screenplay or both… ... That we saw her as just, you know, kind of like J.K. Rowling before Harry Potter, to give an example.

30:30Jawad MirRight? And I think that was very important in connecting the audience to her, because the people who come to watch it… They're not all like, you know, bestselling authors, right?

30:41Jim FrohnaYeah.

30:41Jawad MirAnd I really appreciated that. I really did.

30:43Jim FrohnaYeah.

30:43Jawad MirI know that's not your department, but I was just sharing that.

30:47Jim FrohnaNo, I, and I appreciate that too because, you know, one thing sort of related to what you said is... I mean, I think it is always fun to like stories of like the e… the, an artist discovering their voice, right? The… there's something pleasurable, whether it's like a movie, I'm blanking on the title, but there was a movie just like about a band coming together and like the first notes. Or do you, did you ever see, it was a tiny little indie film called Once?

31:15Jawad MirNo, I have not.

31:17Jim FrohnaMade by Irish filmmaker…

31:18Jawad MirI gotta…

31:18Jim FrohnaOh man, it's, it's like…

31:19Jawad MirI'm gonna make a note of it

31:20Jim Frohna... It was made for like $3, you know, basically shot with camcorders, but it is like the one of the most beautiful, winning, sweet, romantic movies. But it's about creativity and these two artists kind of finding their voice together. But anyway, when in the... As the script unfolded, you didn't get to see Verity. Your first shots of Verity originally were when through Loen's eyes coming to the house and seeing the actual state that Verity is in. And then Michael and the editors realized like, "Well, this is Anne Hathaway, and plus it's gonna be a little bit m… more of a shock if we see Verity at her peak in that interview and see the house that she lives in and her, you know, glamorous outfit and everything before we meet the Verity who's been in the accident."

32:16Jim FrohnaBut yeah, I mean, those scenes, like going back to like the humble roots and like the origin of her first writing project and all that stuff, those were also really f… fun to shoot. And for me, again, I'm biased for many reasons of…

32:28Jawad MirSure

32:28Jim Frohna... Things I love about this movie, but there, it was a lot of fun to shoot those scenes and to watch particularly how Anne is basically... She gets to play like five different versions of Verity in this movie.

32:46Jim FrohnaAnd m… we're always… she was always aware that it's like, "I'm not Verity right now. I'm Loen's imagination reading this secret manuscript of Verity," right? So there was, the, in those scenes, like there's a little bit of a heightened thing, which we also embraced in terms of how we shot it. But, you know, the… there's a little bit of a storybook element. But yes, I marvel at Anne's performance in this, and even the scenes when characters are coming at her or doing things to her, and she's in her state where she is non-responsive. Like…

33:24Jawad MirOh, God.

33:27Jim FrohnaI know. There's a couple where I can't... I have to look away for certain moments and shots. But, like, y… you could say, and maybe I'm, you know, being grandiose or something, but it's like you could say there's not much to like sitting still and not blinking. But like what… somehow you feel what the character must be feeling underneath what is this kind of…

33:50Jim Frohna... Frozen affect and, I don't know, and just how Anne could drop into that place and, you know, those were long takes, and sometimes Michael would talk to, in this case, like Dakota Johnson while we're still rolling, and Anne Hathaway's just in that state of being. And anyway, it was, it was... There were many, like all the kind of places that Verity gets to go to and how Anne delivered w… was very impressive, and I think, I think it's one of the strongest parts of the movie.

34:22Jawad MirYeah. I'm gonna talk about one of the parts after we're done talking, so it's not included in the podcast because I really wanna talk about that, but I can't… at the moment. But, you know, when you, when any of us, it doesn't really matter if it's in the industry or not, every day we're learning, right?

34:40Jawad MirWe think we're not, or we, our ego might tell us we're not, you know, a little bit sometimes. We know this and we know that. Working on this film, whether professionally or personally, what did you learn about yourself?

34:55Jim FrohnaAgain, I appreciate the thoughtful questions that you ask. I was so glad to be at a point in my career where I was still scared of a day or of a scene or of a shot, where it's like, "How are we gonna do this? Can we do this? Can we pull it off?" And however people might feel about the movie, I know that there are things in there that we did, you know, at the top of, top level of like what fits in the, in the genre. And so to... I think to have those feelings come up and to say to myself, "Well, that's okay that I feel like that," and to still, you know, forge ahead,.. And I don't know if that's too vague, but it's like because it was a new genre, right?

35:57Jim FrohnaAnd let's just say this separate from what ended up in the movie. It was still like there was a tall order. We didn't have as many days as we thought we were gonna have initially 'cause of some scheduling this or that, whatever. So it's like we... Look, this was, you know, a decently funded big, you know, Hollywood star-studded, you know, movie on the one hand. But on the other hand, it's like we had a very long script to get through and not enough days, and the pressure, you know, as it does, as you know from being a filmmaker yourself, it's like, "Well, you just gotta do it. This is what we have, so you gotta make it happen."

36:36Jawad MirYeah.

36:36Jim FrohnaLike, "You guys figure it out," kind of thing. And one thing that I appreciate, a very positive thing I appreciate about Showalter is that… He doesn't just say the script is done. It's like he's constantly working on it in prep. He works on it with the actors. He discovers things the night before in his dreams, or, like, we show up on set, and so the script was evolving while we were filming as well in addition. And I share all that just to say, like, I f… I did feel... I have said, and I meant it, like, it was this fun ride, but it was also, like, you're, you're clutching... It is like a E-ticket thrill ride at an amusement park where it's like, "I'm having fun, but holy shit, that's..." You know, like we're going around the curve, whatever like that, hold on tight kind of feeling. So I think I like the fact that I am still growing and learning. I like the fact that I don't know everything, and that I took some chances.

37:40Jim FrohnaI pushed myself. I asked, you know, for my, for my crew to push themselves, and I think, again, separate from the end results, it's like that... I always want that to be a part of the process because I think ultimately it... That's where the satisfaction comes from, right?

37:58Jawad MirYeah.

37:58Jim FrohnaSo I think it was both a personal thing and a professional thing. You know, there were days when it was like, "Wow, we barely got through that." For example, the climax, again, without spoilers, but, like, the stormy night and all the events that happened…

38:16Jim Frohna... Like, we had what should have been, like, three days for that, we had one day.

38:22Jawad MirOh, wow. Oh, wow.

38:23Jim FrohnaAnd so it's like, "Here we mother snatching go." Like, hold on. Like we... It was just, like, full throttle, and that's very daunting. And one thing that I will say too is, like, I have a general disposition of, like, calm, cool, collected. Like, I'm very even, you know, and I don't freak out. I don't get loud. I always say to my crew, if it's like, "If I'm quiet in the corner and not talking to anybody, then you might know something's up." But…... I'm not a screamer by any means at all. But anyway. But it's like that, those days now that I'm really recalling, it's like that's a, it's a tremendous amount of pressure on many people. But I think particularly in those scenes it's like, it's on the AD and the DP 'cause they're like, they're driving the bus at that point, right.

39:15Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

39:16Jim Frohna... So I guess to say that is like, there was a r… a lot of moments where it's like all you're doing is flying by on your instincts and I'm very… I'm actually really pleased with that. Like, that sequence in the movie I think is a lot of fun and over the top in a great way. But I feel like all… we hit all the right notes in that, in that whole sequence and, you know, w… without a moment to breathe or even, you know, question, like, what I'm doing with the camera, the lighting. We're just like I said, just like full bore, full throttle.

39:49Jawad MirI think it's very important, and I've said this many times on this podcast. In any aspect of life, right, when you work under pressure, you go with your gut and instinct. And most of the time those are right.

40:04Jawad MirBut when you have time to second-guess yourself, then you're flip-flopping, right?

40:08Jim FrohnaRight.

40:08Jawad MirThen that's where the problem sometimes comes ab… again.

40:11Jim FrohnaSure. Yeah, when people second-guess.

40:12Jawad MirAnd you talked about the script and it... Yeah, it plays in your head. And you talked about the script not being finished. It's so true, and I learned this from something that Steven Spielberg said. He said, you know, "If you are working on a script and if you think the script is finished, the film is finished before it even starts."

40:29Jawad MirSo you should never have this attitude the script is done. It is nev… It's not even done until the film is done in post-production…

40:36Jim FrohnaYeah

40:36Jawad Mir... Because it…

40:36Jim FrohnaYeah

40:37Jawad Mir... It's being rewritten, right?

40:38Jim FrohnaYeah.

40:38Jawad MirSo that attitude I think is really important because otherwise, you know, you think you've got… you know it all, and that's it. You're done. You're screwed. You're finished.

40:49Jim FrohnaYeah. Yeah. I will… That makes me think of times when certain crew members, whether it's prop person or the boom woman or, you know, the dolly grip saying like, "Oh, I thought this was the last shot," or, "I thought…" "... You know, I thought the scene took place in the kitchen, and now why are we out on the back patio?" And I will say like, "Look, this is... This..." Like, telling stories, it's like a living, breathing thing, and to be able to be open to the possibilities and the what-ifs and discovery, again, is also, to me, a key part of why I love this business and life in general. Like, so I… it's that thing of reminding each other like, "Yeah, this thing is alive." And to your point, it's like you don't want it to be already fully baked. You wanna be, you know, cooking.

41:41Jawad MirYeah.

41:41Jim FrohnaLove making.

41:41Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. It's, it's interesting you mention, so I'm not talking about this film because I don't want anybody in any kind of trouble, and I don't want any names. But this idea, and I've seen this on sets that I've worked on too, right? And maybe at certain point in my age, I was like that too, I won't lie, right? Like, you know, "Are we done?" You know, kind of like, "Are we there yet?" Right? Especially when you're working on someone else's project. If it's your project, you're a little bit sort of, you know, more self-conscious.

42:08Jawad MirHaving that kind of... And looking back at my life, I wonder sometimes why I did that because now that I'm a bit mature, not completely, still growing, is that the attitude thing is a huge thing, right? And when you have negativity on… in any kind of line of work, like, "Are we done with this project?"

42:30Jawad MirThat trickles through the entire team, and it can… ... Become extremely toxic. Does that happen more than often on sets that you've been? Like, is it like a regular thing?

42:40Jim FrohnaI would say... I'm thinking back to when, like, I came up through lighting, and I started as an electrician on the lighting crew and then became a gaffer before I moved into camera. And when I think about… And that was when I was about 25, right? So it's 30 years or just over 30 years. And I feel like a lot of that has fallen away. There are still… You still encounter a crew member or two who you're like, "Well, if you don't have fun here, what do you do?" Like, if this hurts to be here…

43:17Jawad MirWhat are you doing here?

43:18Jim Frohna... If there's nothing brings you any pleasure, then maybe it's, you know, it's time to like, you know, sh-shift careers or retire, whatever it is. But I can, I can definitely say back in the earlier part of my career, like I saw that a lot. And even as a young DP, I was like, "Okay, note to self, I wanna be around people who wanna be there, who have spark in their eye and joy in their heart to like..." You know, 'cause it is hard work, right? It's like we're all gonna be working our asses off, so you wanna be with people who have that, you know, positive energy, right?

43:50Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

43:52Jim FrohnaAnd so as I got to be a decider of like who I'm hiring, who my key people are, and I would say to those people like, "Look, man, like the one thing like..." A-again, not to repeat myself, but it's like I know how hard we're gonna work, but I need people who are… have that yes, pl… yes we can attitude as opposed to, no, I don't wanna. And you know, I hear a lot of showrunners in TV now start a season with like, "Hey, we have a no asshole policy." And like, you know, this is about communication, and yes, there's gonna, you know, be some friction sometimes or you might not get along with someone. We're not looking for people to be best friends. But you know, this idea of res… first of all, just like respect across the board for all departments and all people, regardless of position. And then, you know, just having a either no tolerance or very low tolerance for any kind of bullshit that comes up.

44:45Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

44:46Jim FrohnaSo I feel like thankfully... And there's still, you know, we're still working together and there's gonna be, you know, personalities that clash or whatever. But by and large, I will say that aspect of my experience in the business, that has faded away in a, in a significant…

45:04Jawad MirGood

45:04Jim Frohna... Significant degree. Yeah. Yeah.

45:08Jawad MirThat's awesome. That's good.

45:09Jim FrohnaAnd, you know, if I get on a job where it's like I go to a, you know... So much of my work is out of LA, it's like, you know... So I'm, I'm counting on other people to tell me who the best folks are in places. And you know, I went and shot a movie and like made a mental note, okay... 'Cause I… Y… there are a lot of very skilled people, but they ha… again, that thing of like if you're skilled but you're pissed off all the time, that just does not work, right? So anyway, I make the mental note like, all right, next time I go back to that city, I know to… you know, who I wanna work with again type thing.

45:44Jawad MirYeah.

45:44Jim FrohnaBut again, by and large it's, it's actually, that atmosphere of negativity I have either avoided or it's faded away.

45:54Jawad MirNo, that's true. And I think it's, you know, I always say this, in any line of work you can be the least talented person, but if you have the right attitude and you have the most ambitious ideas in a sense that you just wanna find solutions, right…

46:09Jim FrohnaYeah

46:09Jawad Mir... Then you're, you're going places. I was just watching this interview of Tom Cruise when he was promoting Digger, which I don't know if you have seen, by the way. If you haven't watched it's a great film.

46:19Jim FrohnaYeah.

46:19Jawad MirIt's one of the best movies I've seen in a long time.

46:20Jim FrohnaYes. I saw, I saw your…

46:22Jawad MirYeah

46:22Jim Frohna... Your, reaction.

46:23Jawad MirYeah.

46:23Jim FrohnaLike your quick review.

46:24Jawad MirAnd…

46:24Jim FrohnaAnd actually, I will tell you, it actually made me rethink like... Not that I wasn't… I didn't have, you know, preconceived ideas of it. I was just like, from what I've heard, how badly do I need to see it? And then you, and then actually another friend texted me who went and saw it and was like, "It's changed my..." What was like a 12-degree, 25-degree interest is now like, you know, up to 90. So I will, I will go.

46:48Jawad MirS… so I've seen it twice…

46:50Jim FrohnaWow

46:50Jawad Mir... In the theater, and I'm going to go a third time with my wife next week. And that used to be a thing I used to do when I was in university or school, right? And to do it at th… and it's a very rare thing. So it's, it's a… It's really well done. You gotta watch it. But Tom Cruise said they were ta… you know, initially when they were doing makeup for his character, it was taking six hours.

47:10Jawad MirAnd this is when the time he was shooting Mission Impossible 7, 8, or both of them. And he went to the crew and he's like, "Listen, we gotta notch this down. Like it's too long of a time in a day, six hours." Right? It's like almost like one-third of a day.

47:23Jim FrohnaYeah.

47:23Jawad MirAnd the crew, the crew said, "Well, it's impossible." And Tom said in the interview that he said to them, "Well, maybe we should just say let's try maybe." Right? Like just make an effort.

47:33Jim FrohnaRight.

47:33Jawad MirLong story short, they cut down from six hours to one.

47:38Jim FrohnaWow. Wow.

47:39Jawad MirRight? So it's, again, it's just having that attitude is the first step…

47:44Jim FrohnaRight

47:44Jawad Mir... Towards doing something.

47:45Jim FrohnaYeah. Yeah.

47:46Jawad Mir'Cause if you don't have it, nothing is gonna happen.

47:48Jim FrohnaThat's right. That's right.

47:49Jawad MirYeah.

47:50Jim FrohnaIt's, it's… Again, I always say it's like, well what if? Like can we try? Or, you know.

47:55Jawad MirYou never know. You never know. Just to wrap things up, man, you probably are not going to be able to tell me, but I'm gonna ask anyways, what's your next project that you're working on? Is there something you can share?

48:07Jim FrohnaSure. No, I'm... In fact, so November 19th on Netflix, there's a limited series called The Altruist that comes out.

48:14Jawad MirOkay.

48:14Jim FrohnaAnd got Julia Garner and an Irish actor named Anthony Boyle. They are both fantastic, and they play... It's based on the real life, you know, crypto crime story… ... Of FTX.

48:29Jawad MirOkay.

48:29Jim FrohnaSam Bankman-Fried and this woman, Caroline Ellison. But it… the way it's told, the smart writing, it's, it's actually more of a love story. It was a wonderful experience. And again, it's sort of... Verity is larger than life in sort of a melodramatic, pulpy way.

48:47Jim FrohnaAnd this is larger than life because, a-again, in real life, these two people met in their early 20s, They want, they wanted to use their brains to make a lot of money so they could then, you know, donate it to, like, get drinking water available in places where people didn't have drink… clean drinking water or, like, save the whales kinda thing. And they go in with this sort of innocence of youth and big dreams and end up as, like, you know, corporate crypto criminals. But, they... Like, by the time they're in their late 20s, they're flying around the world, they're dealing with, you know, shadowy figures…

49:23Jim Frohna... In the financial world. They're billionaires. And so their world literally, you know, goes topsy-turvy, and suddenly they're living this huge life and have no... Yeah, without getting into the whole story, it's like they're so young, of course they're gonna be stupid. Now, that does not excuse what ends up happening in terms of the…

49:42Jawad MirYeah

49:42Jim Frohna... Financial crimes they commit, but it's such a unique way into the story and, again, they're, like, p… portrayed in a way when, in the way that we approached the story is, like, they're just, they're human beings who make a lot of, like, almo… it's almost like a Shakespearean tragedy. Like…

49:57Jawad MirYeah

49:57Jim Frohna... These f… these people keep making fool… foolish after foolish mistake. Anyway, so that one's coming out November 19th.

50:05Jawad MirOkay.

50:06Jim FrohnaAnd I had a lot of fun with that one. And then, the next movie is again with Michael Showalter, and it's actually Serendipity, if you remember that movie from…

50:15Jawad MirYeah, of course

50:16Jim Frohna... John Cusack and Kate Beckinsale.

50:18Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

50:19Jim FrohnaNot a reboot, it's not a remake. It's written by the same guy who wrote Serendipity. It's called Serendipity, but it's sort of, I don't know, modern. It's a…

50:29Jawad MirIt's like a modern version.

50:30Jim FrohnaWell, it's like, it's almost like a conversation, like... It's almost like speaking to... I don't know how to describe it. I think Michael's…

50:40Jawad MirI'm looking forward to that.

50:41Jim FrohnaYeah, it's not a reboot, it's a rebuttal is kind of what Showalter says.

50:44Jawad MirRebuttal, got it. That's a nice way of putting it.

50:46Jim FrohnaBut yeah, so we…

50:46Jawad MirThat's awesome. Where are you guys shooting that?

50:48Jim FrohnaBack in New York. I'll be going back,.. We start location scouting in early December.

50:54Jawad MirOkay. And then you're in production probably new year.

50:57Jim FrohnaYes. Yep. Exactly.

50:59Jawad MirAwesome.

51:00Jim FrohnaYeah.

51:00Jawad MirNo, that's really good, man. I would love to have you on after the November 19th show again if you have time.

51:05Jim FrohnaOh, yeah, that'd be fun.

51:06Jawad MirThat would be, that'd be really cool.

51:08Jim FrohnaYeah.

51:08Jawad MirI really appreciate your work.

51:11Jim FrohnaThank you.

51:11Jawad MirAs I said right off the bat, you know, it really... It just kept me going throughout the film, and I really appreciate it.

51:20Jim FrohnaI appreciate that, hearing that, and thank you very much, and thank you for your time and great questions.

51:24Jawad MirNo, thank you. Thank you, Jim. I appreciate it.