'Messi's World Cup', Executive Producers, Juan Camilo Cruz & Jenna Millman

0:07Jawad MirHow are you today?

0:09Guest 2It's good. It's good.

0:11Jawad MirGood. And you're based out of which part of the world?

0:14Guest 2In Bogotá, in Colombia.

0:17Jawad MirNice. Lovely. I was just talking to Jena very briefly and, I was talking to her about not me being a soccer fan in any way other than just watching some World Cup games here and there, you know, the semis or the finals or the first game. And then I saw Beckham series on Netflix earlier this,.. I think couple of months ago it was, which was great and then I saw, Messi's, doc… this four-part series on Apple TV+ and phenomenal series. So I just wanna make s… point that out to you as well. Great work on all four parts.

0:55Guest 2Thank you.

0:58Jawad MirWhat, another comment I was making was like what's great about when you, when you score big with people who are, you know, non-soccer fans or non-sports fan, whatever that genre of sport is, it really tells you that you went for the story. Because sometimes what happens is when you are... Like for example, Jena, you said you were not a soccer fan, and Juan, were you a soccer fan? I'm assuming you are.

1:20Guest 2I am. Not extreme, but I am.

1:22Jawad MirOkay.

1:23Guest 2Yeah.

1:24Jawad MirOkay. But what it ha… what it does is then you don't get diluted too much, right? Into that sports phenomena or, you know, like in Messi's phenomena and you're just trying to tell the story and the heart of it, which was really g… it came through in the series.

1:37Guest 1Thank you. Yeah, that was the goal was to have wide a… wide appeal and, focus on the human part of the story. The things that are... It's a phenomenal human story, but it's a human story where there's relatable things for everybody, you know?

1:51Jawad MirRight.

1:51Guest 1Aside from the whole trophy thing. That's hard to relate to. But the rest of it.

1:57Jawad MirYeah. No, for sure. I would love to just put some context, whoever wants to start first, just to kinda give you, give me a little bit background of who you guys are as, you know, storytellers and filmmakers. Just, you know, i… in a minute or so to give me some context of your background, how you landed on this project both of you together.

2:16Guest 1Juan?

2:18Guest 2Me? I was gonna say you. But yeah, so I actually met Jena a couple of years ago because I've been working on documentary films, since a while already. I started more in the distribution, and film festival kind of universe. But then I quickly started, producing, documentaries. I'm, because of my relationships, started working more like in war, like in like conflict films. I worked in Syria, in Afghanistan, Ukraine, in Venezuela, like kind of complicated environments and like kind of, I guess, challenging projects. That's the reason why they called me for this one. And then, you know, with Jena we met a couple of years ago with one film that was actually a relief from my career, which was about a reggaeton, Colombian reggaeton star, J Balvin. That was an…

3:10Jawad MirOkay

3:11Guest 2... With our friend Matt Heineman, which was a lot of fun and very different to the stuff that I was used to. And then I guess through that kind of experience, and starting to take part like in Latin American stories, as a documentary filmmaker, I was invited to take part of on the, on this project.

3:30Jawad MirWonderful.

3:30Guest 1My background's sort of s… similar but a different path. I spent a lot of time as a journalist, covering conflict zones in Middle East and North Africa for much of my career. And then, jumped into independent documentary, and the first project I jumped onto, was t… about Tiger Woods, and I knew nothing about golf at all, but was fascinated by him as a person. And so we worked on that and sort of, I think, figured out a way to get to that character without having access to him, but really get to who that character is without making it a tabloid film. And then I sort of realized that sports have, has this incredible, opportunity to really get into all of the things that are human, sort of hunger, desire, failure, achievement, disappointment, perseverance. These are all really human things. And so the backdrop is you get these great pictures of these athletes doing amazing things, but if you do it right you get to tell a story that every one of us can relate to.

4:40Guest 1And you know, hopefully get a little bit inspired by.

4:45Jawad MirWow, nice. It's interesting you guys mention that you both have backgrounds in conflict zone, storytelling, and that's pretty much in the world that I am living right now. I mean, these posters in the back, Citizen Amori, In Search of My Sister, Afghanistan, Europe, Middle East, China-based stories, all about conflicts. And I wonder, it's, it's a h… it's a very dark place to be at, and for you to make that transition from that world into something a little bit more, not necessarily glamorous, but you know, a little bit more, non-depressing, for the lack of a better word. How was that? Was that something was very easy to adapt or challenging?

5:25Guest 1I think it was a bit of a relief having had some, done some coverage on politics in 2016. I was a little bit ready to do something different. But in an interesting way, I mean, yes, no, what's, what's, what is a relief is that life and death is not coming into your storytelling in that same way. And but I think the challenge also is sort of similar, right? 'Cause you can also tell a sort of a war story and just hit the surface of it, the bang of all of it. But to tell a war story well, a conflict story well, you're diving deeper and figuring out what is relatable, what's on that human level. It's not just about… About the bang and the bombs, it's about the humans and what they're…

6:12Jawad MirOf course

6:13Guest 1... Through. And I think the same sort of skill set applies in a way. I mean, that might sound silly, I'm not downplaying the conflict, but just in terms of wanting to get past that first level, what you see as a visual, and being able to tell the human story of what happened beneath that. I think those things are sort of, they're, it's a similar skill set and you're sort of asking similar questions about what drives people and what peops… keeps people going. It is certainly easier, I think, to sleep, to go to sleep when you're l… watching this kind of footage rather than

6:44Jawad MirYeah

6:44Guest 1... The last big film I did was on, COVID, about COVID, and this is easier footage to watch.

6:51Jawad MirRight. For sure. Juan, do you wanna add something to that?

6:54Guest 2No, I think exactly the same as Jena. You know, I think when, once you have been in all this kind of dark places sometimes, like coming to a situation where there's more about light and a completely different situation, it's a relief and it's, it was just fun and a great year to spend, watching Messi. You know, he's a, he's an amazing human, so it's like kind of inspiring. And those are the things, like when you are working in this kind of stuff, you are so involved with it, that of course it gets to you. And if you're in a war situation, it gets to you. And in this case, being so close to Messi and his story and such an inspiring situation, I think it was just nice, good input, you know, for our life in a way.

7:38Jawad MirThat's great. So when I was watching Messi's World Cup: Rise of the Legend, I was trying to figure out, as a storyteller myself, that how much of the footage or interviews were after, you know, the World Cup and how much was during or before. So the, obviously there was broadcasting footage and all that. There was some cell phone footage that I noticed. Can you just sort of tell me about it? Like were you guys always planning to do this before the World Cup began, or was that sort of in the middle of it or at the end? Just tell me the process of that. Any, e… both of you or any one of you guys can start.

8:16Guest 2Well, I mean, we were very lucky that we get the chance to have, Leo before going to the World Cup. We had a, we had a, our big... We had two main interviews, one before and one after, which was great because the one before gave us a chance to feel his expectations and, you know, the emotion going towards the World Cup. And then you could figure out, you know, his state of mind and emotions before going into this adventure, which I think was very important for the film to have like this as a set up also for jumping into this adventure. And then to be able to aft… And then that was the, actually the only interview that we did before, the World Cup, and then all the rest interviews and then a second interview with Leo were done after the World Cup was already passed. And then we were able to, you know, to reflect on everything that has happened, and then we were also able to identify, you know, which were the segments of the story that we wanted to, you know, concentrate more. So we were able to actually build the story better, afterwards while, once the whole adventure was passed.

9:21Jawad MirGot it. Jena, you wanna add something to that?

9:24Guest 1And then while we were... I mean, we got this unprecedented access to actually being with Messi in the Argentinian compound, throughout this World cup period. And that is, you know, different teams are different, but the Argentinian compound particularly was extremely secure for all sorts of reasons. One, obviously the first one being their safety, health, and security, and focus, right? This was also their... So COVID fears. So they had extreme protocols around their compound and around protecting Leo and his players so that they could be single-minded in their focus. And then we had this incredible access, but we really had to walk that fine line as filmmakers of getting in as close as we could, but not in any way becoming part of the story or affecting the outcome of the story, becoming a distraction, 'cause that's the worst thing you can do. So we had to have a really light touch, really fly on the wall, have them become comfortable with the camera and be able to observe. And since they won, we sort of feel like we didn't, we didn't, we didn't mess it up.

10:25Guest 1That's, our light touch worked.

10:30Jawad MirRight. You know, it must be interesting when you're following... Okay, so when I was watching the series, I was wondering, obviously nobody knew that Argentina was gonna win, right? Like a… as fans or a storyteller, you're trying to... As fans you want them to win, as storytellers you want them, you want to tell a great story. And I was thinking to myself, what are the odds of, you know, Argentina winning while you're, winning the World Cup while you're telling the story or doing this process, and if there were other teams that were being followed by other com… you know, producers and stuff. And so when you were watching the se… experiencing the series as it was going on, what was that process like? Like did you, were you excited about their journey and, w… you know, just that level of from the standpoint of, selfish standpoint of being filmmakers, like how do you want this to turn out for your own films, both of you? Aside from Messi and Argentina and all that.

11:27Guest 1I mean, it was a, obviously it was a bit of a bet going in, right? We had no idea. You never know what's gonna happen in sports.

11:34Jawad MirYeah.

11:34Guest 1I think they obviously had a very good chance, 36, undefeated, 36 game winning streak.

11:41Jawad MirYeah.

11:41Guest 1And going in they were, you know, sort of one of the favorites. And then their first game against Saudi Arabia and it was like, well, that was in… unexpected for everyone around the world. But, you know, we think one of the most interesting sort of moments in the four-week period, the sort of A story for us, is watching them recover from that, and watching who Messi was during that period as a leader, and, you know, watching them sort of come together and the trajectory of that team gelling around him and with him over the next few weeks to win it, because they were a very different team at the end than they were at the beginning. So I think despite the moments of fear of what's gonna happen next, We thought, you know, "Okay, this is manna from heaven. This is amazing. This is, this story couldn't be any better. We have this dramatic turn, and we have the perfect ending."

12:36Jawad MirWell said. Juan?

12:39Guest 2No, it's exactly as Jenna said, you know? It's like a huge bet. It was... I mean, we... The Rise of a Legend also means, you know, that we are filming and we're telling the story of his whole trajectory. So it wasn't about winning the World Cup, the film, the…

12:51Jawad MirYeah

12:51Guest 2... The series. More about the 20-year experience with Argentina and his relationships and the ups and downs. So we knew that was the project we were doing, but of course, having the, you know, the ending that we had is just a, it's just a miracle and, you know, fantastic for the project.

13:10Jawad MirYeah, it was icing on the cake. For me, the most pivotal thing, that I... From looking at it from a audience standpoint, obviously, you know, from an outsider before watching this documentary, everybody would say that, you know, the fact that they lost to Saudi Arabia, you know, kind of made them wake up and push themselves further, 100%. But after watching the series, I think the part that really... I feel that this is nothing to take away from Messi and his teammates and their coaching staff and everything, but in terms of what pushed them really, not necessarily the loss of Saudi Arabia, but that, those speech that, Saudi Arabia's coach, Harvey, Hervé Ren… Renard, I think his name is, made in the, in the interval, in the intermission, sorry, that how, you know, you wanted to take a selfie with Messi. Like, he really pushed them, and that's the reason Saudi won, and then everything else sort of happened after that. Would you agree to that? Because I thought that was the most pivotal moment in their victory, as well as in the documentary.

14:17Guest 1Well, I think one of the things that... I mean, obviously they weren't, Team Argentina wasn't hearing that speech at the time, but I think…

14:23Jawad MirRight

14:24Guest 1... But for the turn, it says so much, right?

14:27Jawad MirYeah.

14:27Guest 1Is that Messi was... All these players did go in thinking Messi was a god when he walked into the first game, not just to his own players, but to all the other players, right? And so the expectation around him and sort of the, deference that I think the opposing... That scene showed the deference that a lot of players had, even if they didn't mean to. And I remember being like, "No, it's on." Like, he… right now he is just an opponent we need to beat, and it really has this sort of like jolt of energy and you're like, "Okay, right, anything can happen in sports. Messi hasn't accomplished this thing yet. He's very accomplished, but he's gotta climb this mountain just like everybody else." And, that makes for a great story.

15:10Jawad MirRight. Juan, I wanted to ask you, the next question. In terms of going to the actual series itself, right? Like, how... We… you're always, you always know what you wanna cover from the stan… standpoint of story points and arcs and different characters and everything. Once everything was done, right? The actual World Cup was done and you went back for the interview, knowing what you guys wanted and everything, what was that process like and how long it took you guys after the World Cup to go through the production and then obviously post-production?

15:46Guest 2Well, it was... It took us more almost a year, of work after the, after the World Cup. It was... As we had four se… four-part, series, like, each part of the, each episode had its own team. And together with Jenna, we were, like, jumping back and forth in the different, episodes. That was the way it was. Yeah. That was kind of the way it was structured. I don't know, Jenna, if you…

16:16Guest 1We had, sort of an incredible team. It... Yes, it was about a year, I guess, from when it, when, the World Cup ended, but not from when production ended. You know, getting all the other interviews and everything else. So it was... And these are busy guys, you know, the rest of the players on the team. So to track them all down and get them all in the chair, that took a bit of time. And so we... It was a bit of a... It was a pretty fast-paced edit ultimately to get it, all together once we had all the material. And we had an incredible team of editors. You mentioned two of them, Alex Durham, Josh Earl, Dave Marcus. And we were just... It was, you know, it was really a sprint to the finish. And the amazing thing is we had this incredible archive of... Chris Perez. We had this incredible archive material, a lot of it, 17 years of archive material to use. And figuring out how to weave that together, the A story of the four weeks of the World Cup with the sort of B story of the 17 years with the national team, and making it, making sure that the sort of B stories were always helping to elucidate what was going on in the A story and not gratuitous, that was really the challenge.

17:26Guest 1I think that balance. And our editors, the whole team did an incredible job.

17:32Jawad MirRight. Do you remember one particular moment during production, whether it was Messi or his teammates, or teammate, where the filmmaker part of you kinda went out the min… window for a minute, b… either one of you, and you kind of really felt for their pain and what they were going through, whether it was, you know, during intermissions of different games or after Saudi Arabia game or just in general, before the World Cup?

18:03Guest 2For me, it was definitely Saudi Arabia game. I think it was, you know, I was, as I was present in this, in the stadium and I was, you know, second, like, before going in the stadium, watching the whole energy of the Argentina going in the stadium. And you know, like, it... Jenna describes it as a, as a mini Argentina, right? Because it was really a lot of people and the energy and the high expectations. And you know, in that game there was, they actually scored a couple of other games that were offla… o… offside, so there was a lot of hype and people believed that they were gonna e… win easily. And then when they didn't, it was like a big kind of wow moment for everybody, in the team, in Argentina, with the fans, for everybody. I mean, me as a filmmaker was, you know, this is the perfect turning point, you know? Because I wasn't as passionate as me and the other Argentinians. You know, I thought, you know, if you have a team that come… comes with 36 games undefeated and the expectations are so high, and you have the best players in the world, like, the natural thing is that they were gonna win, and then there's no drama, then there is no... You know, we are filmmakers.

19:04Guest 2We need a little bit of all these things to make it more interesting. So when that happened, like, besides feeling the pain in all the people around me, I was very positive that this was going to be an important moment for the film, and it turned out to be. So that was, I guess, the most, for… as a filmmaker, the most interesting moment for me.

19:23Jawad MirRight. Jenna?

19:27Guest 1I think, for me, in a way, it was watching the footage that we got back. And the… particularly, there's this, I don't know if it was a sort of trauma moment, but the moment that you see with Messi after it's all over, this incredibly raw moment that, I won't spoil it for viewers, but it's, I think, probably the most raw anyone's ever seen Messi. He's a man of few words who's, you know, sort of careful and quiet and listens, but you really see him, taking in this moment. And, it, you know, kind of brings you to tears, 'cause somebody who's been in front of the cameras for so long, who's, you know, had his messaging and has been so careful, and then he's just overwhelmed with emotion, and it was really touching.

20:15Jawad MirYeah

20:15Guest 1... And, I felt a responsibility to tell his story right after I saw that piece of footage.

20:21Jawad MirWhat I thought was really phenomenal, and again, like I said earlier, I don't follow soccer, so I didn't even know that he went into retirement or s… some sort of retirement, and then he came back kind of, like, you know, with the fans. And the amount of love that he has, I think similar goes with Ronaldo as well, but I don't, again, I don't know much about that, but s… I saw this in the series, is phenomenal. I mean, how the fans kind of went from the high end to the low ends and throughout each match, and just even when they were missing him when he had left the team after, the last World Cup loss. What did you guys learn new about this, you know, for the lack of better word, God figure or Messiah figure in Argentina with Messi being the one?

21:12Guest 1I think what I didn't know, and having done a few s… sports stories now, what was different about this one is that this is really a story, a love story between Messi and his country. And it's a complicated one, in that when you are so beloved, I think the line that one of our, Victor Hugo Mora… Morales says is that the, you know, it's, it's, extraordinary to be Messi, but it's unbearable to be Messi, right? So he loves his country. He is a boy from Rosario. He wants to make them proud. And they are hard fans to please in that he, you know, over 17 years, won so much, got so close, did so well, but losing one game, they turn on you. And, you know, they had this incredible pressure, but then they had his back again. And I, coming into the story, didn't understand what that relationship was like. I didn't understand sort of the power of that. It's something much deeper than nationalism. It's really personal. I… as I said, I think a love story between a pa… between this player and his country and their love of this sport.

22:16Jawad MirBeautifully said. Juan?

22:18Guest 2No, for me, it was basically to understand and to see the level of passion that Argentinians have for football. It's something that, you know, like, as a Latin American person, me being a Latin American, and you know, knowing a little bit about football, I knew that there was a lot of passion and a lot of love for football and for, in Argentina. But once you are there, it really becomes very obvious that there is, like, a different level of passion than anything that you have ever seen in the world, that they really feel it as a religion, you know, that this goes beyond anything that you have ever imagined. Then you can understand better and it becomes more clear for you why it is so important for Messi to win this, you know? Because he comes from that place which has this amazing passion, and they are really in need of this, and they really want it, and they really... You know, like, in Colombia, you never expect anybody, anything from the Colombian team, you know? But in Argentina, the expectations are so high, because of that love and because of their talent that was something that I had never seen.

23:19Guest 2You know, like, even when we were in the, like, close to Messi's house in Rosario, and you see even the bus stops are painted by the flags of their national, of their little teams of Newell's, and this is something that you will never see here. So that was, for me, something very special to see that level of passion, that happens in Argentina for football, for soccer.

23:44Jawad MirRight. One of the things that I really... A… again, there were some great moments in the series, right? Like, some very powerful moments. But I think, for me, the one that stood out the most is just the love of fans. Like, you know, when you see them celebrating or e… even when you see them crying or being in that tense mode, you know, with the last minute to go or the finals or whatnot, y… you, because they're fans, like, they're, they're just like anybody else, like you and I, right? So you relate to that. You feel their pain or their happiness. Were you guys at any point, there, after the World Cup just to, again, experience that fandom of the welcome that they got, or was it a completely separate team that you guys just sent, like, camera crews and stuff?

24:29Guest 1We had a pr…

24:29Guest 2Oh

24:29Guest 1... Incredible... Oh, go ahead, Juan. You should speak to this.

24:32Guest 2No, please. No, so yeah, I mean, we were, after the World, you know, right after the final, you know, we were in the stadium, close to feel the energy there. Then we went back to the Barwa, which is the small mini Argentina that took place, like a li… in Doha, where everybody was celebrating and stuff. And yeah, we took part of it and we filmed it, and it was just incredible to see the energy, to see the happiness of the people, to see how m… many of them, they say that situation changed their lives, you know? That was for me, still a game, you know but when you see it from this…

25:08Jawad MirYeah

25:08Guest 2... When you see that there's people that have sold their house or went from a bicycle for six months, you know, from Africa to just go see this, you know, and experience this, and left their daughters and their families and everything just to feel this dream, then you understand the importance of it and the dimension that maybe you know, you don't understand because you're not from there, but you see it. It's so spectacular. It was so amazing to really live it and to be part of that energy, you know? And again, you know, we were, as filmmakers, we have to admit that we were, of course, during the World Cup, fans of Argentina, right? Like, we were somehow experiencing those emotions because we wanted them to win…

25:49Jawad MirYeah

25:49Guest 2... Right? So it was a relief and it was a great moment to be able to share with them.

25:55Jawad MirRight. Jenna, do you have anything to add?

25:57Guest 1I was just gonna say that we had, you know, we had a team filming in Argentina the whole time, our production crew…

26:04Jawad MirRight

26:04Guest 1... Et cetera. And the reason is 'cause from the beginning we wanted to make sure that the Argentinian fans were a character, that they weren't just a…

26:12Jawad MirThey were

26:12Guest 1... You know, that they really were a character because they are so much of the story, of the motivation, of the... I mean, you know, and, Leo says it himself, you know, that he has this love and he wants to do it for these fans and everything. And so I think that it was really important for us to not just be there in one moment, but to actually sort of see their faces along the way. And some of that footage, as you said, I mean, I was really moved by it, the one, there's one particular shot of a woman where she just says, "We have to, we have to do it this time," you know? And she's saying it under her breath to her friend…

26:44Jawad MirYes

26:44Guest 1... In a bar, and it's not to the camera at all, and she's like, just, "We have to, we have to win this time." And you're thinking, like, "She's deeply invested," you know? Deeply invested. And then you see the young boys' faces in, at the very end. Our editor did an pretty incredible job of finding these faces, and it's this next generation of, that have been incredibly inspired.

27:07Jawad MirYeah. I watch cricket a lot, and if any sport that comes close to the love of soccer, it's the cricket in the South Asian subcontinent, like India and Pakistan, and the fandom over there is absolutely insane, too. You know, but just, th… this is, to me, this is just another level. Like, I have never seen anything in terms of from a fan standpoint to be that heavily invested. Not just... You know, it's one thing to be in the stadium watching the game because you're experiencing it as a group, but just to be outside of that world, like, you know, thousands of miles away, and just to feel that you're there and experience it all was absolutely mesmerizing.

27:51Guest 1Well, and I think one of the things that comes out, it was very well said, was it by, Gaston? I think one of our Argentinian, a… sort of experts, pundits, was talking about how the, you know, the main export, the export that they're sort of proudest of in many ways is soccer, and that is what they ha… the way Argentina speaks to the world. And I can say that through h… through his words. And I think we really wanted to honor that as well, that it's, again, not just a game, but something so much deeper.

28:23Jawad MirRight. What was it... I, and I don't want... When I'm asking this question, I'm not even asking in any way the political side of it, but just being in Qatar, in Doha, you know, spending so much time there, and the facilities that they had and the arrangements, what was, what was that like, just, you know, with the, around fans and around the locals, of course?

28:47Guest 2Well, I had never been in a World Cup before, so I don't have, like, a point of comparison, but some, one thing that most of the people said that, you know, were usually going to World Cups is that the fact that, you know, there were all the stadiums in the same city, right? Made that the whole World Cup was happening in the same city, right? Which doesn't, had never happened in the, in ever in the world, and this is a city that is for sure, like, made to be able to host a space like this. So the whole energy, the parties, the events, the fan zones, the restaurant, everything was, like, somehow filled with this energy of the World Cup, which is insane, of course. It's like people, you know, having fun, going crazy, cheering for their teams, going from one place to another, enjoying the beaches, enjoying the place. So it was, I think it was quite a, yeah, quite a great place to be and quite an interesting, yeah, like, I think a space to host a World Cup, very special, very different.

29:50Guest 1Yeah. And again, I think, more Argentinians traveled, or the second-most amount of people who traveled, but I think it was Argentinians, from anywhere else in the world. So it really was this wonderful invasion of fandom and they had, there was a little Argentina, as Juan said before. There was an entire community that was basically cre… you know, created, and lived in by Argentinians. And some of my favorite footage is the really quiet footage from that little village where there's, you know, an Argentinian getting his hair cut in a Qatari barber shop, you know? And it's just, it's like people camped out there. This was just, had become the home away from home, for that four-week period of time.

30:32Jawad MirRight. One of the great things about storytelling, whether it's in any genre, whether it's the Beckham series or, this one on, and the Messi's World Cup on Apple TV+, is that a lot of people forget about, you know, when it comes to fandom and celebrit… celebrities, you forget about the journey that they've gone through, right? Like, you hear, like, all this, like, tabloid in news about such and such having this or that, and you hear, like, completely very diluted stories. But what as storytellers you guys did, and everybody else that does, it just humanizes them to a level where you kind of understand their pain and their suffering, and you completely get all the stuff, you know, that you see. What did you learn about Messi as a human being? I mean, like you said earlier, he seems like a very down to earth and humble and quiet guy. But just a… anything a little bit more than that, Messi as a human being, as a father, as a friend, as a co-player.

31:34Jawad MirWhat was something that you guys learned about him that you didn't know before?

31:40Guest 1It's bouncing off the humble idea, but it's to take it to another level. And it is about him being a family man. I think what you see is, you know, Me… Messi again was an icon when he walked in. Many of the players on the team w… w… grew up with his poster on their walls. But yet what you see in that compound, and it's real, this is really how it went down, is Messi is eating with his teammates. He's training with his teammates. He's in, you know, he's in the trainer's room getting wrapped up with his teammates. He's sitting on the exact same bus in the exact same seats with all of his teammates, and he's at a level, you know, where that might not necessarily be the case, right? But he was wanting to be amongst them. And as he said, you know, you're away so much from your family that these guys become your family. He's very much a family man, cares deeply about his family and you see that if you follow him, you know, on social media. But in during this period, this became his family, and I found it so touching that he had these Polaroid pictures that you see in a couple shots on his desk.

32:43Guest 1And all the teammates were taking a picture a day, and they would give it to him so that he had memories from just the sort of behind the scenes life. And I think that's, having now done some stories about some superstars, I think it's pretty unusual for someone of his level to want to really be in it, in the way that he was, and to form those bonds regardless of age, status, or anything else.

33:10Jawad MirGreat. Juan?

33:13Guest 2I agree with everything that Jenna said. B… but for me, definitely the way, it was, you know, everybody knows that somebody to be at that level has to be very competitive, for sure. But it was, like, very interesting to see it so close, you know? And to see, like, the mindset of a, of a champion at that level, and the level of compromise and sacrifice, and hard work that actually takes to become somebody like Lionel Messi. You know, it is something that you probably have seen a little bit and you know of, and you know that he's a talented person and is successful and everything, but you don't really know what's behind all that, you know? And I think to be able to see that so close, because we of course study him since he was born until the last day, so we were able to actually understand every step he had to take to become that man that he has become. So that level of effort, you know, that it's not just like a one day thing, it's like an everyday progress and process of becoming and working and doing and sacrificing to become that. So that was for me very inspiring, and something that I didn't knew it was so extreme, you know?

34:19Guest 2And so powerful. Yeah. I guess that was it.

34:23Guest 1They're even competitive when they play cards. They are com…

34:26Guest 2Yeah

34:26Guest 1... You see among them, but he does wanna beat them at cards, for sure. They're, the boots aren't off when they're playing all their games in the locker room. They get into it.

34:38Jawad MirThat's awesome. I, one comment I wanted to make, before I ask my next question. I don't know if it was cellphone footage or you guys had access to it on the plane after the World Cup, when they were in the, inside the plane. And I think in the entire series, if my, if I'm correct about this, I felt he felt home for the first time when he lied down on that three or four-seater on the plane. Like, he just kinda just c… you know, lied relaxed, and he felt like he was at peace with himself. W… was that something that you guys had access to, or was it all cellphone footage?

35:14Guest 1It was... First of all, that's an amazing sh… that shot is just amazing. I…

35:18Jawad MirYeah

35:18Guest 1... It, like to see him curled up like a little kid on the airplane seats, is just, and laughing so loosely with his teammates, it's just, it's unbelievable. We had a, we did have, that was cellphone footage, from somebody on the team. And it's pretty raw and pretty special that we were able to collect that and be there in those moments. And, you know, there's a couple great moments with him and the trophy during that which are just unexpected.

35:46Guest 2Yes.

35:46Guest 1You never, you never sort of think about what happens after the trophy ceremony. It's like it, we only normally see the trophy ceremony, and then you see what happens when they're on their parade, right? But I'd never seen what happens in the hours in between, and I think that stuff is very special in this series.

36:04Jawad MirA… and what was so great about that shot was if nobo… if anybody didn't know anything about Messi, they just knew that he was a player, and they see him in that moment lying down on that, you know, four-seater instead of being in the business class, that defines who he is as a humble individual. I mean, that completely describes who he is. Which was the reason I loved it. And, I mean, you said it too.

36:28Guest 2I loved it too. I mean, i… it's one of my favorite shots of the whole, of the whole experience. Yeah. And I agree. It shows a lot about who he is and the humbleness and the simpleness and how he just wanna be part of…... All the team, you know? He just, he doesn't wanna feel special. He just wanna feel part of it, and he understands very well in all levels that football is a team sport, you know? And of course, he's an important figure, and he knows, you know, what he can brings to a team, but he understands that he cannot win without them. And I think that family spirit and that sense of team is something very special from him and something to actually take out from the whole f… series.

37:09Jawad MirJust wrapping up here, guys. Just a couple of more questions. One, is there something that you g… somebody that you interviewed that you really wanted, you know, for it to be in there, but obviously because of story, the arc, and all that, it didn't work out? Any particular ones, or was you guys were able to get whatever you guys wanted into the series?

37:30Guest 1I mean, you always have to make hard cuts, you know? There's always, there w… there's always stuff that doesn't make it in. But I think everyone we interviewed made it in terms of our main voices. Obviously, the players who were, e… every one of the players that we were able to get there. And they are, they were also willing to be there, but they're busy. They all had pretty amazing things to say, and we could have done, you know, a lot longer takes on certain moments in the games. But ultimately, I think we got in sort of the essence of what they wanted to say.

38:03Jawad MirRight. Juan?

38:05Guest 2Yes. I mean, we were very lucky. Like this is Leo Messi, so everybody wants to take part of it. Like, you don't, you don't need to fight hard for that, un… fortunately for us. And yeah, everybody that we interviewed made it in the cut, so yeah.

38:21Jawad MirGood. One of the things, and I'm not doing this for any particular, reason other than it's, it's a fact, that I've spoken to a lot of people who have worked on different series on Apple TV+ like Masters of the Air, Monarch, Monsters Legacy, Monarch: Legacy of Monsters, and everybody has raved about the way Apple TV+ production and everything operates. What was your experience, like working on this particular project as opposed to, you know... Again, I'm not trying to name any other names, but as opposed to other production companies that you guys have, may have worked at, but more so in terms of Apple TV+. What was so different, and what was the experience like?

39:05Guest 1Oh, well, this is my second one back to back 'cause I also worked on the Dynasty with Apple, which is also coming out this much, month. But I have to say, the support from... It's a very big company, but the support from the non-fiction team, from Molly Thompson, Miguel Tomayo, and, Tomayo and Rachel Criswell was really remarkable. They were very invested in this story, I think from the beginning on. You know, they were, like, extremely invested in, supporting it in any way that they could, and, problem-solving in the way that, you know, whenever you have productions, there's problems to solve, but being part of the, part, helping us be part of the solution. And we had this incredible team sort of in, you know, in Argentina, and Smuggler in the US. So it was a, it was a, you know, again, in a way sprint to the finish, but we had a lot of people, really talented people working together to get it done.

39:58Jawad MirWonderful. Juan?

40:00Guest 2Yeah. I can just relate to Jenna's experience. You know, I think, and I think you pointed out really well, you know, the fact that you have such a big company but such a, like a personalized, you know, compromise with the project was amazing. And the people that has been working with us is just people that has a lot of experience, you know, working on this and working with sport, with sports documentaries and many other stuff, you know? They are great storytellers. So I think it was like with Apple and the rest of the team, it's like it's, it was a great, you know, collaborative experience, you know? And what they brought was their experience, you know, their dimension, but also that kind of little, how you say? You know, yeah, personalized, work together with us, which was amazing, to be part of…

40:46Jawad MirFair

40:46Guest 2... And to have.

40:46Jawad MirHow much... Thank you. You know what? This is something I ask almost everybody I talk to, especially in stories like these where, like, you know, you're against a perseverance and victory and loss, and all those emotional moments, is that as storytellers, we are always, we have and we are always going through similar hurdles, right? Like, there's always, like, ups and downs, and you're trying to get something done and it doesn't get done. Then you have to find, you have to pivot and et cetera. How much of that of your own personal journey, you feel, both of you, goes into something like this at an emotional level? Like, you, where you can implement certain things by consciously or subconsciously, you know, relating to who you are and what your story has been.

41:34Guest 1Well, I would say there's a lot of ways you could go with that question. But we made a…

41:40Jawad MirYeah

41:40Guest 1... We are, you know, I think anyone who's made films knows that no matter how much time we have, at a certain point it becomes an all-night affair every night, you know? It's just y… you could have five years and to make something or a year to make something, and you end up in the sort of the trenches together making this thing, right? And, I think it, in this one four-week stretch right before we were getting ready to deliver, we were making jokes a lot with the editors, who were in… incredible and dedicated so much of their time. And, you know, you're up at 2:00 in the morning trying to solve problem story, solve a story, put together the puzzle pieces. And we were thinking, "Okay, so this is, it's not nearly as hard, but this is our World Cup. Like, we've got four weeks here to figure out how to, how to get through it. And each day seems to be two days long. But I do think that one of the incredible parts about what we do and the, what's wonderful about it is that you end up in these deep collaborations so quickly with people that you may or may not have ever worked with before.

42:41Guest 1And it's a really special relationship, for me, and I feel like on some level it is very parallel to being on a team, like this kind of team. These specialists are brought together, and you have to accomplish this goal and, You know, it doesn't hurt to be inspired by, like, the GOAT and watching him do it too.

43:02Jawad MirNicely said. Juan?

43:04Guest 2A… absolutely. You know, I think, I think if you're investing so much time and you want something to be right in this thing that we do, you need to be invested emotionally, physically, mentally, every day. You know, you have to work hard. You are in the shower thinking about a scene. Like this is something that you are all the time thinking about and having... You know, it becomes part of your life. It becomes part of your conversations. It becomes part of your everything, and that's why, you know, when we're talking about war, at the same time happens the same. So in this case, being such a, you know, heroic story and with such a character, it was just a relief to be able to have that in, as part of your daily life, of your everyday life, for the things that you share with your family, the things that you share with your, with your people, you know, the conversations, like, that it becomes something that you somehow own in your own little way, and I think that was, yeah, in… incredible for us.

43:57Jawad MirI laughed, at your shower comment because I was doing that this morning, literally thinking about a project that I'm working on, and I was like, "How am I gonna do this? How am I gonna do that?" a… and just lastly, guys, what's next for you guys? What's, what's... That is something you can talk about.

44:14Guest 1Right now I'm directing an episode for a Nat Geo show to come out for

44:19Jawad MirOkay

44:20Guest 1... National Geographic for Trafficked with Mariana Van Zeller, and Juan has got some big stuff coming.

44:28Jawad MirDo tell.

44:28Guest 2I'm, I'm work… I'm working different stuff. The thing that I can talk about, it's a pro… a project in the Ukraine, you know, that I've been filming for a couple of years, that it's hopefully gonna come, this year. Very different and complicated story. And yeah, getting a couple of other stuff done, but yeah, I can cannot talk much about it at the moment.

44:49Jawad MirThat's fine. That's fine. When is, Jenna, when is your series coming out, the Nat Geo one? Is it... Do you know what date? Is it later this year?

44:56Guest 1That... Well, they're, they're in, season four right now is airing, so my episode will be in season five next year. So it's a…

45:03Jawad MirOkay

45:04Guest 1... Ep… they're…

45:05Jawad MirOkay

45:05Guest 1... Yeah, on… ongoing thing, so.

45:08Jawad MirPerfect. And Juan, are you pretty much done production, or are you still in process on that Ukraine project?

45:14Guest 2We're in post-production, like finalizing the edit soon, and hope for, like, a fall release. We'll see where. That's the idea.

45:24Jawad MirAnd, I'm assuming you guys don't, not you guys, Juan, you don't know what, distribution, where it's gonna be at this point. It's, is it too early…

45:32Guest 2No

45:32Jawad Mir... Or it's something you can... Got it.

45:34Guest 2It's a little bit early as it's a, it's a war and complicated project, like we've decided to make the…

45:38Jawad MirYeah

45:39Guest 2... Adventure by ourselves and then to see, to come to the market a little bit later.

45:44Jawad MirI think that's a great move on your part because I haven't seen any Ukraine documentaries, but I know when the war broke out, everybody was going there, and they were, like, rushing out, like a, you know, a project. But I think sometimes to wait out and to understand the complexities and to, you know, for the audience to understand, it's a, it's a great move, so I'm looking forward to that. For both of you guys, the Nat Geo project as well, I'd love to check them out. Thank you so much, guys, for your time, both of you. Again, fabulous work on the series.

46:14Guest 2Thank you very much.

46:16Jawad MirAnd, looking forward to seeing more of your work. Thank you so much.

46:19Guest 1Thank you.

46:20Guest 2Thank you. Thank you for having us.

46:22Jawad MirOkay.

46:22Guest 1Stay warm.

46:23Jawad MirYou too. Thank you. I will. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.