'Air Force One' & 'The Perfect Storm', Editor, Richard Francis-Bruce

0:08Jawad MirThank you again for the fourth or fifth time, I don't even remember now, for joining and

0:13Richard Francis-BruceYeah, me, I've lost track too

0:16Jawad MirBut it's, it's always fun talking to you. I mean, there's certain number of people that I talk to, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual on the other side too, that I truly enjoy, and it's really, you know, lovely to always talk to you and learn from you about the stuff that you have done, so

0:30Richard Francis-BruceOh. Yeah, thank you. It's nice because it's,.. It's rare that I do an interview with the same person more than once.

0:39Jawad MirWell, I hope it's a good thing.

0:41Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

0:43Jawad MirAwesome. So yeah, so we're, we're gonna talk about, you know, two films back and forth, but mainly, you know, you worked with a director more than once several times.

0:54Richard Francis-BruceYes

0:54Jawad Mir... You know, this time Wolfgang Petersen, who directed, The Perfect Storm and, Air Force One, who has also directed the films that y… you weren't part of, but just from of a standpoint of, from context, Das Boot, NeverEnding Story. You know, some of the great stuff that he's done.

1:13Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

1:13Jawad MirAnd, just l… sort of starting off with how did you... I think Air Force One was before Perfect Storm, or was it the other way around?

1:22Richard Francis-BruceYeah. Yes, it was.

1:24Jawad MirSo how... I mean, obviously you had known about Wolfgang Petersen because…

1:28Richard Francis-BruceOh, yeah

1:28Jawad Mir... Of his work, right?

1:29Richard Francis-BruceOf course. Yeah

1:29Jawad MirHis lovely, amazing work that he's done over the years. How did you land on Air Force One? It was a traditional way of just shopping around and, you know, or he wanted you?

1:42Richard Francis-BruceWell, it, I think it us… it usually happens, unless I'm working with someone for the second time… ... I usually then get contacted by them. But when I've never done it, I think what they do is they put out feelers to... If they're looking for an editor, they put out feelers to all the agencies that handle editors. And it just so happened that, I was working on The Rock at the time.

2:09Richard Francis-BruceSo, I got a call from my agent saying, you know, that, "Well, I'm gonna send you a script." "It's Wolfgang Petersen, the director, and he's looking for an editor for this project." I read it… ... And I said, "Yeah, I wanna do it." And then I get called in to see Wolfgang and we talk about the project. I find most of the time when I go in for interviews for jobs, it's more a conversation o… on more on a personal level. I mean, a little bit of talk about the film, but I... It's a bit of an interview going two ways. You know what I mean? You're interviewing that person as well, although they probably don't think you are.

2:48Jawad MirYeah.

2:49Richard Francis-BruceWhether you wanna work with that person, and they're doing the same to you. And I think, if a re… if a rapport is established during that interview, you get, you get the job. And I don't know how many... I'm sure a lot of other people were interviewed for that job. So I always... It was a period of my career, the '90s, that, I worked very constantly. Couple of times I overlapped. Perfect Storm was one of them. I overlapped the end of that film with The Green Mile. And it was a period where I was doing a lot of good stuff. I was very lucky to get…

3:30Richard Francis-Bruce... Involved. But it's more... It's sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. It's... Well, I don't know if that's the correct term. But once you get a job and it's successful, you're, you're on the radar of people who are looking for someone. So then you…

3:47Jawad MirYeah

3:48Richard Francis-Bruce... You get that you're somewhere near the top of the list I would imagine, 'cause you're very visible. Your work is very visible. It's out there. So I went through that period during the '90s and ending up with the... It ended up, kind of ended that run, a very successful run, in, you know, 2000, and I'm very grateful for that period. A lot of people don't get that kind of run that I got, but I was lucky.

4:15Jawad MirYeah, you're, you're so right about that. Because, you know, I... Talking to people on this podcast and meeting some of them in person, I was just in LA and, you know, I met, the director of Kung Fu Panda, John Stevenson, one of the, one of the directors. And Kung Fu Panda was like a surprise box office hit. Like, it was not beyond expectations. And I think he was nominated for even Oscar. And another director, of Spirit Stallion of Cimarron, another animated film. She was nominated for Oscar, Lorna Cook. And you figure, you know, you go that, to that level that there is gonna be at least some much, somewhat more of, you know, going up and up before you go down. But for them, the career just went from there and then they were completely forgotten, and then they had hard time, you know, finding work, which is, I think, a story of a lot of people

5:06Richard Francis-BruceOh, yeah. It is

5:07Jawad Mir... In the, in the business.

5:08Richard Francis-BruceYeah. I mean, I was lucky that in my career I actually chose to end, you know, to s… to come back to Australia to just say, "Okay, had enough." everyone's gotta retire some time. And, I'd reached that point that I realized that it was g… it was getting harder and the w… the industry was getting very complicated too. You know?

5:35Richard Francis-BruceIt was, it was a lot more... There was a lot more input from a lot of people into what they thought the film should be. And getting very political and, yeah. So you…

5:52Jawad MirYeah

5:52Richard Francis-Bruce... You decide to step away from it and go, "That's it." I've, I've, I had 54 years of working in this industry, so, that was with my television background and the feature films. So I'm… Content, you know?

6:08Jawad MirYeah.

6:08Richard Francis-BruceCouldn't do, couldn't do any more.

6:12Jawad MirWell, that's, that's a good thing that you're content because not, again, going back to something that you and I just both said, not a lot of people get that, you know, kind of contention for a long time, so…

6:22Richard Francis-BruceYeah

6:22Jawad Mir... Good to h… good to hear that. And going back to what you said about the, you know, rapport part, that is, you know, just so important because even, like, directors, you know, like Nolan and Tarantino or, you know, even though they'll pick, like, big actors, but the same time, you know, they still wanna go out and have lunch with them or dinner with them just to talk about life. And…

6:43Richard Francis-BruceYeah

6:43Jawad Mir... And then they'll see some spark that they may see or they may not see, and they make that decision. And I think, you know, even in a regular job, I would say, like, you know, a 9:00 to 5:00, like, whether it's, whatever, like, a manager position, I think people should sort of use that formula because that tells you more about a person than, you know... I get it, the qualifications need important too, but you should do that homework beforehand. If you have asked somebody to come in, instead of asking them about their qualifications, ask them about their family life. What's that like? Because people like that stuff.

7:17Richard Francis-BruceYeah. And, you know, you're gonna spend, from an editing, editor's point of view, it comes down to sitting in a dark room with…

7:25Jawad MirYeah

7:25Richard Francis-Bruce... The director. It's just the two of you for most of the time…

7:29Jawad MirYeah

7:29Richard Francis-Bruce... For, you know, months on end. And you gotta be able to get on with that person. You gotta have s… you gotta have something that, you know... I m… and g… talk… talking of Wolfgang, we had a fantastic working relationship. It was a, it was fun. I didn't dread going into work ever because I knew I had the protection also of, that he had director's cut. Very few directors have it anymore. And even back then in the '90s, w… not many people. Steven Spielberg had it and, I suppose Robert Zemeckis had it and Clint Eastwood. But, knowing that the studio was kept at arm's length, all their good intentions, you know, it really comes down to two people making the film in the end once it's been shot. And h… he wants to know that he's got someone who's got his back, and I know he's got my back. So…

8:28Richard Francis-Bruce... We can just get on with doing the job and not worry about all that, is basically what I'm saying. So…

8:34Jawad MirYeah

8:34Richard Francis-Bruce... Wanna be able to know that you've got... And w… we used to go out to lunch every day, and quite often there were times when I would pick him up from his house, 'cause he lived near me, and, he was having a car in service or some… something like that. And I'd drop him home, and we'd, we'd,.. You know, that's a rare thing to happen.

8:56Jawad MirYeah.

8:57Richard Francis-BruceYou know, I…

8:58Jawad MirAnd it…

8:58Richard Francis-BruceI've been to his house, had dinner at his house. Been, had dinner at restaurants with him. So, that was a good working relationship.

9:07Jawad MirSo true. And as a human being, you know, we, you and I have talked about Michael Bay and, you know, you know, he has a different kind of nature of do… dealing with things. As a human being, what was Wolfgang... W… what is g… working with Wolfgang like?

9:24Richard Francis-BruceOh, it was, it was great. You know, it was fun. I mean, every day was fun. He was v… also, you knew where you, when you were gonna be working, and there were never any long hours. He was… ... Very Germanic about that. He would start at 9:00. He'd break for lunch at 1:00, and he would end the day at 6:00. And we had... We got... I've worked on films where that's not have been a productive time. But it, that with him was a very productive time 'cause he was focused, and there was never any,.. With all good directors, they're very focused about what they want to achieve, so there's not a lot of wishy-washiness, you know?

10:06Richard Francis-BruceIt's either, "That's good," or, "That's bad," and there was sort of nothing in the middle, you know? If the scene wasn't working, it wasn't working, and d… that really didn't happen with Wolfgang, though. He was so organized as a director. He,.. It was never a problem. So i… that also made it fun and enjoyable, and he was telling jokes all the time, and he's just very dry sense of humor.

10:38Jawad MirMaybe that's the funny part.

10:39Richard Francis-BruceAnd as a... He was, he was also a cat person. He and his wife Maria had lots of c… cats that they'd adopted, and had his house set up to accommodate them. You know, with... I remember going to his house and his fences had windows at the bottom of them to look out onto the street, so the cats could sit there and look out and see the activities going by. And it was…

11:04Jawad MirOh, wow

11:04Richard Francis-Bruce... They were, they were protected from birds by,.. You know, the backyard was totally safe for them. It was, had wires going across it to protect them from owls, I suppose, or anything like that, so they could be out in the wild. So very unusual.

11:26Jawad MirRight. I became familiar with Wolfgang Petersen because of NeverEnding Story, you know, as a, as a kid.

11:33Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

11:33Jawad MirI think I was, like, 13, 14 years old. And I think NeverEnding Story came in '84, and I saw it in 1990 or '91. And then I remember when Air Force One came out, and I saw the name Wolfgang Petersen, because I had seen NeverEnding Story God knows how many times. Like, you know, one of my favorite childhood movies. And still is w… it's a very classic film, like, if you watch it in terms of puppeteer work, visual effects, music, performances. And I saw the trailer of Air Force One, and I won't lie to you, when I saw it, I'm like, "What?" How is the concept of a movie where the President of the United States is, like, fighting the terrorists? Like, that did not... I was, I think, t… 19 or 20 at the time, and that did not sync with me. It just did not, the c… the trailer did not sync with me. But when I... And it's funny, yeah, both these movies have... I have a very weird relationship with them when they came out, and now in hindsight I'm like, "What was I thinking?" And then…... I saw the f… and then I saw the film and I really liked it.

12:35Jawad MirLike, Harrison Ford really worked in the film as the president, but in the trailer it didn't appeal to me. And…

12:42Richard Francis-BruceOh, really? How interesting.

12:43Jawad MirYeah. I know. It was so weird. Like, in the trailer I'm like, "This is Indiana Jones." Like, how is he... You know, I think that was at the, in the psyche that, how can he be the President of the United States and then beating up terrorists? Because in the trailer, and I think if they also show up a lot of scenes where he's actually, you know, the vulnerability is not shown in the trailer, if my memory serves me right. But in the film there is. Like, there's, you know, a lot of stuff that you show like a, because the character gets developed. And The Perfect Storm, and I can't believe I'm gonna say this, I went to see it and around that time I think it wa… I was into very, like, fast-paced films, and, I walked out. I left the movie theater. And…

13:27Richard Francis-BruceWasn't fast enough for you

13:29Jawad Mir... No, but you know what the funny thing is, 12 years later I started working on a f… documentary that was about a fishing community. So I saw the film again while I was working on that just to give me some sort of a, you know, a perspective of how the fishing communities work. I mean, that was like a bigger one than one compared to what I was working. And I totally loved it. And I saw it again two days ago, and I related to it so much because I spent so much time in the fish… in that fishing village that I made the film of.

14:00Richard Francis-BruceRight.

14:00Jawad MirLike I s… I spent about six months over the course of four years, and it was, it was such a marvelous film to watch. And it's just funny how times change your views on certain things. I just wanted to share that. I mean, it…

14:12Richard Francis-BruceThat's funny

14:14Jawad Mir... And the pacing, and the pacing of Perfect Storm was absolutely perfect now that I, you know, saw it two days ago. It made complete sense to me, and it didn't when I was, when I was young. And I loved both of the films. More Perfect Storm than Air Force One because it was obviously a true story and it was more realistic to me than…

14:30Richard Francis-BruceRight

14:30Jawad Mir... Air Force One.

14:30Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

14:31Jawad MirYeah.

14:31Richard Francis-BruceAir Force... A… a… and I don't think Air Force One would've worked without Harrison in it, you know? I don't know if anybody…

14:37Jawad MirYou're right

14:37Richard Francis-Bruce... Else could've carry, carried that off.

14:40Jawad MirYeah.

14:40Richard Francis-BruceThe disappointing thing about Air Force One, it was quite early days with visual effects and CGI especially.

14:48Jawad MirYeah.

14:48Richard Francis-BruceAnd there's some pretty atrocious CGI s… I mean, some good ones for the time. The fighter jet stuff was good, but the Air Force One itself, especially the crashing, is just, you know, not up to today's standards, shall we say.

15:07Jawad Mir100%. But it is funny, I think if you show it to a, today's generation, like, you know, a boy or a girl, they will probably say that. But if you have sort of lived in that time you kind of let it go. Like, you know, special effects weren't really up to par, so it's okay.

15:22Richard Francis-BruceRight.

15:24Jawad MirBut it was, it was a very engaging film. Like, I think, I think it, honestly it wasn't just Harrison Ford. I think Harrison Ford and Gary Oldman both made that film…

15:32Richard Francis-BruceOh, Gary Oldman. Yeah

15:33Jawad Mir... The way it was. I mean, they were just perfect opposites of each other.

15:39Richard Francis-BruceYeah, Gary Oldman was amazing. Amazing.

15:43Jawad MirYeah. No, he was. Working on Air Force One, what were, if you... I know it's been a long time. Whatever you can remember, whether it's a challenge or an anecdote or something that got cut that you, both you and Wolfgang felt that should've been there but you had to because of, you know, time constraints or the pacing. What was…

16:06Richard Francis-BruceWell, I don't, yeah, I don't think there was anything cut. I can remember, the visual effects on Air Force One, were like a step up, quite a few steps up from Air Force One. And I do remember Wolfgang was, really saying at the start of, even before production that... 'Cause we were all disappointed in the water effects that were CG in

16:32Richard Francis-Bruce... Perfect Storm. Sorry, it's the other way around. Yeah, other way around. Sorry, that story doesn't make sense now. We're talking about, what are we, which one we're talking about?

16:42Jawad MirSo Air Force One. I think you…

16:43Richard Francis-BruceAir Force One

16:44Jawad Mir... Mean... Yeah.

16:45Richard Francis-BruceYeah. No, there was nothing that... No, I don't think there was. It was just the challenge, the real challenge of the, of the visual effects was,.. I don't recall us having any real issues like that b… again, because Wolfgang was so organized. The script was so organized and so... I mean, I've worked on films where there's no ending or there's no beginning to the s… to the script.

17:12Richard Francis-BruceAnd that's all worked out as we go along, which is not the way to make a movie. But Wolfgang's films weren't like that. All his stories, like he didn't start shooting a s… a script till it was ready, just so he could concentrate on just doing that work instead of having to work on rewriting the... There was no real rewriting done while that film was being made. It's pretty much…

17:37Richard Francis-Bruce... The s… the script was shot that was written. But ... No, there was nothing. There was nothing like that. It was all very smooth sailing.

17:48Jawad MirGot you. And…

17:49Richard Francis-BruceI mean, there were always the complications of the budget and trying to keep the visual effects to a minimum, and they did so much of the storm footage in a tank in a sound stage at Warner Brothers in Burbank, and the full size trawler in there, and dump tanks for the waves and… What'll, what most films do in those situations, they put green screen outside the windows and add the water later. Well…

18:23Richard Francis-Bruce... To make it work, what we did, what we had was a backing out there, you know, which is a painted background of just, like, indistinguishable grays, different shades of gray. And because it's out of focus, you can't tell if it's a wave…

18:42Richard Francis-Bruce... 'cause the focus is in the foreground on the actors. And with water going by, we got a, got away with a lot of stuff that pe… people I'm sure if they watch it would not have... Would not recognize that there's, like, nothing really happening out that window. There's no waves. There's…

18:58Jawad MirYeah

18:58Richard Francis-Bruce... Only for the hero shots that you, did you do that. Like, looking through the front of the sh… the boat, through the front windows, seeing the waves in front. That was obviously CG.

19:11Jawad MirRight. Yeah, one thing I picked up on Perfect Storm when I saw it two days ago. Now, I don't know if, Wolfgang had any kind of, intention doing that or if it b… it was, it really happened in the true story. The shark, when it comes on the boat, you know, to me that reminded me of the ending of Jaws. Like, the moment that happened and the Robert Shaw's character sort of…

19:37Richard Francis-BruceRight

19:37Jawad Mir... Dragging out. And I thought, I thought that was... I mean, it just, it just kind of, you know, triggered that memory. But one thing that I really, felt... And I don't know, y… I know you were saying the visual effects weren't up to par in both films, especially with Air Force One. I thought with Perfect Storm, just watching it two days ago, I mean, I didn't think... With the exception of few shots, I even thought there was a sequence of, a cargo ship where the cargo kind of just falls into the water.

20:06Richard Francis-BruceRight. Yeah, well, that was all, y… obviously all CG. Yes. You know, it…

20:09Jawad MirYeah, but it looked real. It looked pretty good.

20:13Richard Francis-BruceYeah. Well, I think g… g… also we had the f… Air Force One, the visual effects were mainly done by a visual effects house called Boss Films.

20:24Jawad MirAh.

20:26Richard Francis-BrucePerfect Storm was done totally…

20:28Jawad MirILM

20:29Richard Francis-Bruce... By ILM.

20:30Jawad MirYeah.

20:30Richard Francis-BruceSo there's a huge step up there. Also, few years and a l… and digital effects improved a lot over a couple of years. And Wolf… Wolfgang... This was the story I was trying to tell before. Now we've got it in the right order. Wolfgang really had to... He got visual effects people to show him and to prove that they could do digital water convincingly…

20:55Richard Francis-Bruce... Before he would commit to do the film. 'Cause he said, "I'm not... There's so much water in this film."

21:00Jawad MirYeah.

21:00Richard Francis-Bruce"If it doesn't look real, it's not gonna work." And, I think that was basically a product or byproduct of how bad some of the visual effects, especially the... In Air Force One, the plane crashing into the ocean. The water looked terrible. The plane looked terrible, but mainly the water. And we had lots of, lots of meetings. And I think what helped a lot with the reality of the visual effects is the cinematographer, John Seale, was a, I don't know if he still is, a very keen sailor.

21:37Jawad MirYeah.

21:37Richard Francis-BruceSo he understood the way water should look, and we'd have meetings all the time with the visual effects. We'd... There's that big hero shot of the boat going up the face of the wave and the water coming over the top, and it's, it's foamy and cresting and it just... So many attempts to get that looking more realistic because in... What the visual effects people are... Unless they know water, they don't understand there's certain subtleties to the way water looks.

22:09Jawad MirYeah.

22:09Richard Francis-BruceAnd John was able to point that out. Like, the water comes off the top of the wave. When it's coming off the top of the wave, it's really very misty and thin, and we're saying, "Oh, it's too chunky. It's just, you know, it's not looking real." So a lot of that was, I think what made it look a l… Made the attention to detail coming from people outside of the visual effects department helped to make it look really good. So yeah, I think it would, does still stand up.

22:40Jawad MirYeah. I noticed one thing. It wasn't anything massive, but again, having... Because when I made my, film Only 78 about the fishing community, we actually went on a boat and, to get some footage of these fishermen, you know, catching lobster and different fish. And I thought it was gonna be a walk in the park, right? Silly me. And, it wasn't even that bad in terms of the weather, but still, you know, you... The boat will rock up and down. And one thing I noticed with Perfect Storm, there's a scene when, George Clooney's character is saying that there's a big storm coming. Either we have a choice to wait it out and let, you know, the fish rot, or we go through the storm. And then the camera is on the other four guys, Mark Wahlberg, and you can see that because the ship... I mean, you could see it was a real ship, and they were really out there. It would go rock up and down. You'll see the water come up behind them and down.

23:42Jawad MirAnd that too, a… and that's not an easy thing to film. Like, it's... Being on the boat, whether it's a small crew or a big crew, it's not an easy thing to do. It's very challenging. I mean, Spielberg has talked about that with Jaws, over and over again.

23:56Richard Francis-BruceYeah

23:56Jawad Mir... Filming on water is not easy. Even if it's on sound stage…

23:59Richard Francis-BruceWell…

23:59Jawad Mir... It's not easy.

24:01Richard Francis-BruceActually, yeah, speaking of Jaws, I know that you watch that film and you can see the difficulty with shooting on water. From one shot to another, the sea, the sea level, the sea quality of the water changes from being quite smooth to be little waves and…

24:16Jawad MirYeah

24:16Richard Francis-Bruce... But you get so, you get so wrapped up in the story, you… You should only be looking at those things if the movie's not working. That's what I find…

24:23Jawad MirExactly

24:23Richard Francis-Bruce... Myself doing. You know, if I'm watching a movie and I'm watching the editing, I know, the film's lost me.

24:32Jawad MirYeah. Well, I mean, I think with Jaws it's an exception because I think a lot of us have seen it so many times that we start picking up on these little things…

24:39Richard Francis-BruceYeah

24:39Jawad Mir... You know, but after we have sort of run out of the main story and admiring it and everything. But, you know, the story of Andrea Gail, it's... There's actually even this episode of Seinfeld about it. I don't know if you remember this.

24:56Richard Francis-BruceOh, really?

24:56Jawad MirYeah, it was actually, it was, it was... You know Seinfeld? Have you seen it quite a bit or…

25:00Richard Francis-BruceOh, absolutely. I thought I'd seen every episode…

25:03Jawad MirOkay

25:03Richard Francis-Bruce... But

25:03Jawad MirSo there is an ep…

25:03Richard Francis-Bruce... I don't remember that one

25:04Jawad Mir... There is an episode, I think it was Andrea Gail, I could be wrong. There was an episode with George Costanza who wants to get an apartment, and he has to come up with a story to fight out the competitor, and he comes up with the story that he was part of this shipwreck or,.. I think it was Andrea Gail and I'm, I'm not 100% sure. And he t… he basically tries to win over the tenants and everything and when I was watching the film like, "Oh, Andrea Gail. That makes sense."... But it's, it's such a, it's such a... I wonder how it became such a big story because... Not that it shouldn't be, because it was about a s… you know, a fishing community and... Like, how did that story…

25:46Jawad Mir... In, from what you understand, became so big, as opposed…

25:50Richard Francis-BruceI think because of the…

25:51Jawad Mir... Like Titanic?

25:51Richard Francis-BruceWell, because of the book, that…

25:54Jawad MirOkay

25:54Richard Francis-Bruce... There was a book written, after the movie.

25:57Jawad MirI didn't know that.

25:58Richard Francis-BruceYeah, there was a book written about it. So I think the event was fairly unknown until the book was written. Sebastian Junger, I think his name is. Jung… you know, Junger. He wrote the story. Funny thing, a s… funny story about that, though. We were on the sound stage mix… doing the final mix of Air Force One, and one of the sound mixers on the, on the crew handed this book to Wolfgang, The Perfect Storm…

26:28Richard Francis-Bruce... And said, "You know, you might be interested. This is the kind of thing that you should be doing, Wolfgang." And lo and behold, he read it. The next thing I know he's going to turn it into a movie. Funny how things happen. I don't think he would've picked it up himself, but, yeah. Interesting. And he was looking for something like a big drama on the water to do. I think that was something he wanted to do. It's a hard ch… it's a big challenge to take on, doing a... Movies on the water, I've done one of those.

27:00Jawad MirYeah.

27:00Richard Francis-BruceThey're, they're difficult.

27:02Jawad MirWell, he did Das Boot, right? And I think that was…

27:05Richard Francis-BruceYeah, that prob…

27:05Jawad Mir... More popular in Ger… Germany than in Hollywood, so I think that's why… ... He probably wanted to do something similar.

27:13Richard Francis-BruceI think he wanted to do his version of Titanic. He wanted to…

27:16Jawad MirI was gonna say that, too.

27:18Richard Francis-BruceBecause he was a real, he was a real fan of Titanic. He was blown away by that. I think we, like most people were, because there was so much involved around the production of that film, the troubled production…

27:28Jawad MirYeah

27:28Richard Francis-Bruce... And, r… cost overruns and everything, and I don't think people were expecting it to be as good as it was.

27:35Jawad MirIt's crazy how that film…

27:37Richard Francis-BruceBut…

27:37Jawad MirYeah, sorry, go on.

27:39Richard Francis-BruceCertainly Wolfgang wasn't. He went to see it... 'Cause that was being made at the same time we were doing Air Force One.

27:45Jawad MirRight.

27:45Richard Francis-BruceSo there was a lot of,.. L… there was a lot in the press about it, about the problems of it, and we were following it. I think they actually had a section in Hollywood Reporter or Variety called Titanic Watch, and every day they would, they would have a little article about the latest goings on the set. So that was... You know, we, you're primed to think that it's gonna be a terrible movie, so when it turns out to be very good…

28:15Jawad MirYeah

28:15Richard Francis-Bruce... And very successful.

28:17Jawad MirWell, I remember, speaking of Titanic, it was supposed to come out July 2nd, 1997, and then, and that was the same day Men in Black came out with Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith.

28:30Richard Francis-BruceRight.

28:31Jawad MirAnd then they postponed it till December 18th. And I even remember, you know, like, if you think about it, even looking at the original trailer, not the, you know, revised trailer or the re-released trailer, you see everything in the trailer, right? Even to the moment, the last shot or last scene I would say, one of the last scenes where the ship goes down with Leo and Kate on the top. And you figure, and now you look at it like, "How the hell did this movie made so much money with everything in the trailer?" And everybody knew about the story too, right?

29:01Richard Francis-BruceYeah. Well, it's, well, it's maybe that's, that's why they want... The, I think they went along c… with, for the curiosity of it.

29:10Jawad MirYeah.

29:10Richard Francis-BruceAnd, like most people did, and, w… well, obviously the story, the love story is what…

29:16Jawad MirYeah, of course. Yeah

29:17Richard Francis-Bruce... What got them in.

29:19Jawad MirYeah. I mean, it was really popular. I remember when I used to, I was in my first year university, it was like, you know, Leo was the big thing for all the students, the girls and everything. Like, e… everybody wanted to watch that movie. I st… I... It's just amazing how those things work. But coming back to, you know, Perfect Storm, w… in the past y… you've talked about being on the, set most of the times and cutting and... Was it similar for you with Perfect Storm

29:46Richard Francis-BruceYeah

29:46Jawad Mir... Doing so?

29:47Richard Francis-BruceYeah, I was…

29:47Jawad MirSo were you in the actual community in Massachusetts?

29:50Richard Francis-BruceI didn't go on location because they weren't actually on location for that long. Most of the… ... Most of the rest of the shooting was done, on the sound stage. And, so yeah, and I was on the lot at Warner Brothers cutting, and Wolfgang would call me to the set quite often 'cause he wanted to explain to me something that he had, that he had shot and, what his intentions were to h… how to put it together and I would do my other thing where there was also a second unit working, you know, shooting a lot of the, inserts like…

30:30Jawad MirRight

30:30Richard Francis-Bruce... One particular insert that... And they would come up to the s… to the cutting room all the time to s… to see how the main unit had shot the scene… ... And they needed to see it cut together. And then if they needed an insert, how they were gonna do it. So you need to be around, you need to be up with the footage behind them, up to camera as they call it.

30:54Richard Francis-BruceAnd, I remember one particular, insert that they shot was a hook going into the guy's hand before he... And then he gets pulled over. Well… ... It's a very quick action. You know, it's, it's, it's literally boom. It's, it's hook into the hand and he's gone. And they shot it so many times because... And I think I tried every take until I found one that was just the right speed that you could actually see what was going on, that your eye didn't miss anything. Because it was literally hook in…

31:29Jawad MirYeah

31:29Richard Francis-Bruce... And then the hand moved. So you didn't want hook then it go. You want hook, go at the same time. But so many of them were the right speed, but the camera or the hook wasn't in the right posi… When you're doing something like that, a big close-up, you need it to be right s… dead smack in the middle of the screen.

31:45Jawad MirYeah.

31:45Richard Francis-BruceThe audience doesn't, w… need to do any kind of looking across to, in, on the big screen to another side of the frame to see a bit of action that's necessary to see. You need to s… you don't want them to have to do any work. They gotta see it. So I remember I must have tried it, I don't know, 30 times each take to find that the one, the one that worked. But that's the kind of thing they would do all the time. Second unit would always come up to the cutting room and look at inserts like when your heli… helicopter crash into the sea, you know? Like…

32:18Jawad MirYeah

32:18Richard Francis-Bruce... A little insert you needed to make that work. Hands on the controls and gauges and all that. So main unit doesn't usually stick around to do that. That's too time-consuming.

32:30Jawad MirRight. And I think with also that scene that you're talking about with a, with a shot that's really fast, really quick and a close-up, there's also motion blur, right? Like it will…

32:40Richard Francis-BruceYeah

32:40Jawad Mir... It will, it will move so fast that you can't even make it because it's, it becomes blurry. So…

32:46Richard Francis-BruceSo you…

32:46Jawad MirYeah, I mean, you know…

32:46Richard Francis-Bruce... Had to find one which had... 'Cause you really only need, w… from... I found this out from experience on another film. To actually see something, you need only one frame out of 25 per second to really…

33:00Jawad MirReally?

33:01Richard Francis-BruceYeah. It's a difference between one or two frames. It's not very much, but as you say, you want one that's not blurred.

33:09Jawad MirYeah.

33:09Richard Francis-BruceFor the eyes to see it. Otherwise, it's just a blur. It's very…

33:13Jawad MirRight

33:14Richard Francis-Bruce... It's very interesting.

33:16Jawad MirWhich film did you, and not trying to put one over the other, did you have better time working on, Air Force One or Perfect Storm with Wolfgang? Obv… I mean, for me, I would guess it's Perfect Storm because the second one you build a rapport. But still…

33:33Richard Francis-BruceYeah

33:33Jawad Mir... I would love to know what you...

33:36Richard Francis-BruceYeah. I don't know if there was any w… the... I think it was probably a more, a more difficult film to do, Perfect Storm. It was more challenging. But Air Force One was, you know, mostly shot on the sound stage in the, mock-up of the Air Force One. So, that was a fairly controlled shoot. So,.. But you know, as I say, the key to it all was Wolfgang. He always made it fun. I mean, he would come... If he came to this, I remember on Air Force One, he would come up to the cutting room during a break in shooting to either look at something or to talk to me about something, and this is an example of his sense of humor. He would walk into the cutting room and at the top of his voice, he would yell out, "Everybody look busy." 'Cause he knew people…

34:33Jawad MirYeah, that…

34:33Richard Francis-Bruce... Were sitting around reading books and... But he was just playing with, having fun.

34:39Jawad MirYeah. It's funny you mentioned that. I said that two days ago on a set, "Everybody needs to look busy even if you're not busy because if..." Especially in some cases, like, you know, it's your, it's your own production, but if there's another producer attached or something else, like you wanna show them that you're bu… even if you're done with the work, you…

34:55Richard Francis-BruceYeah

34:55Jawad Mir... 'cause they're paying you, right? You wanna, you wanna show that you're busy and just doing something and even pretend you're rolling. Like I remember, you know, sometimes we're making a doc and a scene is like it's one of those natural meetings or, you know, conversation between people, and the DP would look to me and I'd be like, "Just cut it, but pretend." Like we have a signal, like cut it, but go. Like, you know, cut it but pretend…... That you're still going, and then we'll pretend we're filming. And, yeah. It's just something you have to do. It's just the nature of business sometimes. With Wolfgang, did you work on Outbreak too, or?

35:37Richard Francis-BruceNo, I didn't. No

35:38Jawad MirNo, you didn't. Yeah.

35:39Richard Francis-BruceNo.

35:40Jawad MirYeah. I wasn't too crazy about that film, especially the last act. It was great up until…

35:45Richard Francis-BruceYeah, it…

35:45Jawad Mir... The last act

35:45Richard Francis-Bruce... It was, it wasn't, it wasn't one of his better ones. I liked his, I liked, Shattered. I thought that was very good. Did you see Shattered?

35:55Jawad MirIt sounds so familiar. Is that the poster with the mirror breaking and the woman's eyes?

36:01Richard Francis-BruceI think so. It was, it was a s… a thriller.

36:05Jawad MirYes. It's been a long time. I gotta see it again. With the, what's their name? Bob Hoskins, late Bob Hoskins and Tom, Berenger.

36:15Richard Francis-BruceBerenger, yeah.

36:16Jawad MirI gotta see it again. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's been a, it's been a while since I've seen that. I mean, he's done some great stuff and I didn't even realize this until like a week ago that he passed away last year.

36:28Richard Francis-BruceYeah. Very sad.

36:31Jawad MirYeah. Do… were you in touch with him? Like after…

36:34Richard Francis-BruceNot, no, not,.. He used to live near where I lived in the States, so I'd see him around and, no, we didn't. He asked me to do, after Perfect Storm, he asked me to do,.. What was it called? The other, the ship movie, the remake that he did.

36:56Jawad MirOh, Po… Po… Pose…

36:57Richard Francis-BrucePoseidon

36:57Jawad Mir... Posei…

36:58Richard Francis-BruceYeah

36:58Jawad Mir... Poseidon. And it was a different…

36:59Richard Francis-BruceYeah, but I was already committed, I was already committed to another film. And probably didn't, a good one to miss. That one didn't work out either. But

37:08Jawad MirI mean, it, from a standpoint of technicality, it was really well done. Like, especially the…

37:12Richard Francis-BruceYeah

37:12Jawad Mir... Ballroom and everything. He also did Troy.

37:17Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

37:17Jawad MirWhich…

37:18Richard Francis-BruceLike, yeah, no, he wanted me to do that too, but because it was shot in England or somewhere, they had to have, they had to have all English crew by then. Or heads of department all had to be English.

37:30Jawad MirYeah. But I think it was one of his better movies also, in The Line Of Fire with John Malkovich and Clint Eastwood.

37:36Richard Francis-BruceYes.

37:36Jawad MirThat was a great film.

37:37Richard Francis-BruceNo, that was great, yeah.

37:41Jawad MirYeah.

37:41Richard Francis-BruceYeah, that's the best one.

37:43Jawad MirFor sure. And you know, just out of curiosity, I know it's tough in life and when people move on to certain things, do you remain in touch with anybody from the film business, even if it's one or two individuals that even if you worked with them once or many times? Or just kinda life just takes you on a different path and everybody just does their own thing?

38:05Richard Francis-BruceI mean, crew wise, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm good friends with John Seale. Worked… ... With him a lot. And of course my as… my assistant who I used to have over in America, who I had for 20 years, she did a lot, all those films with me. I keep in touch with her. But no, not really. I think a lot of, well, to be honest, a lot of them are not making movies anymore, the ones I've worked with. Or they're, either have passed away or

38:37Richard Francis-BruceYeah. It's just a…

38:38Jawad MirWho was your assistant?

38:39Richard Francis-Bruce... It's a, it's a funny business.

38:40Jawad MirWho was your assistant?

38:41Richard Francis-BruceHer name is Jenni… Jennifer Mangan, Jennifer Spinelli. However you wanna look at it. Sometimes she calls her, I think, professionally she's Jennifer Mangan.

38:53Jawad MirIs she an editor now full time?

38:55Richard Francis-BruceNo, she's a assistant.

38:57Jawad MirOh, assistant.

38:58Richard Francis-BruceAmerica is a great place... Yes, it's a great place for people who just wanna be a specialist. Like in Australia, I mean, everybody who, I think everybody wants to be an, if they're an assistant, they want to be an editor. But in America, there are some assistants just wanna be professional first assistants, 'cause it's a very responsible job.

39:19Richard Francis-BruceI mean, they run s… they run the cutting room and I just waltz in and do my thing. Sit down, close the door, don't get bothered, and get on with it. And then all the interference o… is all done outside. All the running interference on all the people coming to ask questions. And I mean, it… it's a, to have a good assistant, a good first assistant is like vital. You know…

39:49Richard Francis-Bruce... You don't wanna be worried about, you know, do we have enough stationary or anything like that. You don't want people bothering you with that, those questions, you know?

39:59Jawad MirYeah.

39:59Richard Francis-BruceSo yeah, I mean, I worked with her for 20 years. First film was The Rock.

40:06Jawad MirOkay, so your relationship with her started on The Rock. Okay.

40:09Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

40:09Jawad MirOkay. Yeah. Yeah.

40:11Richard Francis-BruceWhich was my first film cutting on Avid too, so. And she was an experienced Avid assistant, which weren't, there weren't hardly any in the film industry… ... At that stage. Pe… And she was a film assistant and a Avid assistant.

40:26Jawad MirGreat.

40:26Richard Francis-BruceIn those day, in those early days, you'd have your film crew and your Avid crew, because they…

40:35Jawad MirYeah

40:35Richard Francis-Bruce... They didn't know each other's job. It was a really d… And I'd lucked out and got somebody who knew it of both. So, yeah. The rest is history, as they say.

40:47Jawad MirYeah. Actually, speaking of Avid, I was talking to the, what was their names? They edited,.. I'm really bad with names. They edited the recent Transformers movie. And they've done a lot of other stuff with Michael Bay too. What... I'm just gonna pull it up right now. Their names,.. Oh yeah, William, Goldenberg and Joel, Negron, I would s… presume that's how to pronounce it. And we were talking about Avid, and you know how that... You were talking about Avid came in the time when you were working on The Rock, and it, there was that transformation. And we were talking about how n… now, well, Avid just got bought out by another company. They had to sell it. I don't remember the name of the company.

41:33Richard Francis-BruceOh, okay.

41:33Jawad MirAnd now, and now the big software, which is actually an Australian based company, DaVinci Resolve, and how it's…

41:42Richard Francis-BruceOh, is it? I didn't know that.

41:42Jawad MirYeah. DaVinci Resolve. What has, what has that done? I mean, Avid is still being used by a lot of studios, for sure. But there are some films that are being cut on DaVinci Resolve because of its, e… element of grading, and editing, and visual effects and sound all in one go. And it's more popular with independent filmmakers because it's only $230 or something, and then there's a free version, which has only, like, few features that are not in the purchase version. But a lot of studios, I mean, they…

42:15Richard Francis-BruceIs that price, do you own it if, for that, or are you renting it?

42:18Jawad MirYeah. There is no, it's just ownership, complete ownership. Absolutely.

42:22Richard Francis-BruceYeah. Well, see, that's a big thing, 'cause Avid charge you like a monthly fee, I think, which is…

42:26Jawad MirYep. Same, yearly or monthly. It's the same thing with Adobe. They do the same thing.

42:31Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

42:31Jawad MirIt's... And yeah And I mean, DaVinci was really popular with grading anyways, like, you know, the big…

42:39Richard Francis-BruceYes

42:39Jawad Mir... Dynamic…

42:40Richard Francis-BruceThat's, that's what I remember it…

42:41Jawad MirYeah

42:41Richard Francis-Bruce... For. Yeah.

42:42Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. But now it's, it's just a software which you can download for free and you can edit, grade, do sound, do special effects. I was on Final Cut once, the, from version two. Then when Final Cut 10 came out, I dumped that and I went to Adobe, and then I started working on Avid for a bit and now I'm completely DaVinci. I mean, I'll do Avid if there is a project that comes out requirement, but DaVinci has like, just become one of those things where it's, it's just easier to use and plus it's cost effective. You don't have to worry about the monthly fee.

43:16Richard Francis-BruceSounds much better.

43:18Jawad MirYeah. And, you know, just kind of to wrap it up, one thing that I always find, fascinating with, you know, in... Whether you're a director or whether you're editor or whether you're a cinematographer, not that there's a competition between you and another editor or at, and a set of other editors, but there's also a community, right? Like, you know, you're, you're, you're talking to each other about different projects and stuff.

43:46Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

43:47Jawad MirWho... Well, who are some of the editors that you were close to in a sense of, you know, talking about films and learning from each other and having spent, spending time with each other?

43:59Richard Francis-BruceI don't know. I was... I pretty much separated my work and my professional life. You know…

44:05Jawad MirGood

44:06Richard Francis-Bruce... I didn't,.. I mean, I would, I would mix with my peers from time to time, but nobody in particular, you know? I knew a lot of, I knew a lot of editors, but it was just on a friendly basis. I didn't socialize with them. I had my own social set outside of the office. My family and, so no, I didn't. I think generally speaking, I mean, there's, there's the A… ACE, you know, American Cinema Editors, which is the... There's a lot of social stuff involved with that. And the Academy, if you're in the Academy…

44:40Richard Francis-Bruce... There's a lot involved with that too, that you can... But I'm very much, a lot of editors outside of the cutting room are s… also very, shall we say, loners.

44:56Jawad MirIntroverts.

44:56Richard Francis-BruceI mean, the whole, the whole job is such a, such a loner job…

44:59Jawad MirYeah

44:59Richard Francis-Bruce... Sitting by yourself in a room for so many hours a day. And it, that's just us. I don't know if we're a very gregarious group. We get together from time to time in a big group. But, no, not really.

45:15Jawad MirNo, you're, you're so right about that because I've been in that editing position for a while and, you know, it's a very lonely job. Absolutely. And depending on what you're working on, if it's something really dramatic and serious, then it becomes even worse because if you're dealing with a very serious subject and somehow it, you know, has an effect on your psyche and your mental health, then you're completely in another zone. But it is…

45:41Richard Francis-BruceYeah

45:41Jawad Mir... Really, it's funny, it's funny you mentioned that because I probably speak to more DPs and directors on this podcast than editors because a lot of editors I've spoken to, yourself, and few others, maybe with the exception of one or two, including yourself, they're, they're, you know, they're obviously because they're spending so much time alone, they're, they're introverts. Editors mainly…

46:05Richard Francis-BruceYeah. Yeah

46:05Jawad Mir... Are introverts.

46:07Richard Francis-BruceI think we... I think generally speaking, we are. But there are those ones who like to get together and go and have drinks. I've just never been that kind of, person. I don't, I don't drink, I don't drink at all, so…

46:21Jawad MirGood

46:21Richard Francis-Bruce... Anymore. I don't, see the benefit.

46:26Jawad MirNo, that's, that's, that's, that's

46:28Richard Francis-BruceI mean, if…

46:29Jawad Mir... That's a good choice

46:30Richard Francis-Bruce... I usually find that if I'm working on a studio a lot, I'll bump into a lot of editors I know. We may have lunch time to time.

46:38Jawad MirYeah.

46:38Richard Francis-BruceYou know. But, it's not that I'm totally o… opposed to having, you know…

46:43Jawad MirRight

46:43Richard Francis-Bruce... Friendships, but it's just not the way my life works.

46:48Jawad MirHas... I know with Spielberg, he's always had Michael Kahn, you know, from the very beginning, after Verna Fields, after Jaws.

46:58Richard Francis-BruceYeah

46:59Jawad Mir... With Robert Zemeckis or any other director like James Cameron, was there ever a possibility of you working on any of their films that had ever even…

47:10Richard Francis-BruceNot that I knew of.

47:11Jawad MirYeah.

47:11Richard Francis-BruceIf there was, I never knew of. I mean, I did meet Spielberg once, which was a great meeting. Came to the cutting room on

47:21Jawad MirW… how, what was a meeting like that with him? Was it during the editing session or…

47:24Richard Francis-BruceWell, I was doing, I was doing, I was do… I was editing The Green Mile and Frank…

47:28Jawad MirOkay

47:28Richard Francis-Bruce... Marshall knew hi… knew him.

47:31Jawad MirGreat.

47:32Richard Francis-BruceAnd, the, we were on the Hollywood, the Warner Hollywood lot, which is now just called The Lot, I think. In, and, he went to lunch with Spielberg on The Lot. But then after lunch, he, Frank came back into the cutting room and said, "There's someone here who wants to speak to you." And he walked, stepped aside and Steven Spielberg was standing behind him.

47:56Jawad MirOh, wow.

47:57Richard Francis-BruceAnd so he said, "Oh, yeah, I was having friend lun… with, lunch with Frank, and I s… he just said, 'I wanna go and meet your editor.'" Which was nice. So we had a nice chat for a while, just the two of us one-on-one. One of the rare ones I've had it, I've actually ha… been able to sit down and talk to one-on-one. We talked a… I talked about Avid and saying, you know, "You should get onto this. This is really good." He said, "Oh, Mike likes to use, you know, the…... It's been good for us to use just the regular film, so we're gonna stick with that." I said, "Oh, okay. But, you know, you can do versions of scenes and..." But he wasn't convinced.

48:36Jawad MirBut now Michael does do it on, Avid

48:39Richard Francis-BruceWell, I think he has to now, doesn't he? Like…

48:41Jawad MirHe has, he has no choice.

48:42Richard Francis-Bruce... 90-something. He's so, he's very old.

48:46Jawad MirYeah, no, I... He rarely does any interviews. And but he has an assistant who's been working with him for a while. I think her name is Sarah something, and she's done a lot of pieces in the films that's... Like, I think she specifically just works with him and Spielberg. But yeah, no, he's, he's got an assistant now who's, you know, probably doing more of the legwork, but, you know…

49:09Richard Francis-BruceYeah

49:09Jawad Mir... Michael…

49:10Richard Francis-BruceI'm sure

49:10Jawad Mir... Michael Kahn be… Michael Kahn being Michael Kahn, right? Like, it, his name needs to go up there just like Eunice Kaminsky and, you know, other individuals that work with Spielberg. But yeah, no, this has been, great. If there was one last thing I would ask you, I mean, you've talked about them a little bit, but if there was one moment of memory that you would remember that stands out the first time I ask you from Air Force One or, Perfect Storm, what would that be, of your involvement in it, in the post? It could be anything. It doesn't even have to be, like, you know, about the film. It could be just an anecdotal i… moment or any conversation with somebody on the set on the post-production side.

49:58Richard Francis-BruceWell, I just know there's, always something that's stuck in my mind with Wolfgang was when I would cut an action scene… ... If he w… if he said, if he wanted it speeded up, you know, like he would say, "Can you just give it a little haircut? Just t… t… little here, little there." And I'd say, "Well, okay, go away, and I'll just, I'll fiddle with it." So he basically wanted, like, the one that he s… the first time he used that saying was the scene where Harrison Ford and J… B… Gary Oldman are fighting at the back of the plane.

50:35Jawad MirRight.

50:35Richard Francis-BruceThe get, the get off your plane, get off my plane scene.

50:38Jawad MirYeah.

50:39Richard Francis-BruceAnd, I'd cut it. I thought it was pretty good, but he wanted it faster, so, "Just give it a little haircut." I thought that was always his way of, saying, "Speed it up."

50:54Jawad MirAnd it sure did. I mean, I think, again, with Air Force One, it starts off with, you know, his speech as the president. It sets up the film really well. I mean, it had a huge cast. I just remembered Glenn Close when it was in it.

51:06Richard Francis-BruceYeah, she played the President of the United States.

51:09Jawad MirYeah. And there were a few other big names that I can't remember, but same. And that, and there, the beauty of both those films were they were complete opposite of each other. One was about this, the most powerful man in the world being vulnerable, and the other was an average man in America, the fishing community, and how they deal with something really massive. So i… it's, it's, like, interesting just oppos… you know, the... I… it's just interesting that those two films came out around the same time, and they're completely opposite, yet they're not about…

51:42Richard Francis-BruceYeah

51:42Jawad Mir... From each other.

51:43Richard Francis-BruceI mean, I think that's one of the things that I like about working with directors like Wolfgang, is that y… you're not gonna go in there and do a Transformers 16 or something, you know? Every film is gonna be different.

51:57Jawad MirYeah.

51:57Richard Francis-BruceAnd, y… you know, y… I think the only f… films I've worked on which were the same film basically were the 50 Shades that I did right at the end of my career.

52:11Jawad MirYeah.

52:12Richard Francis-BruceSo, yeah, apart from that, everything is different, isn't it? And I mean, Green Mile and…

52:18Jawad MirShawshank

52:19Richard Francis-Bruce... Shawshank are same era, but, and both…

52:22Jawad MirThey're different

52:22Richard Francis-Bruce... In prisons.

52:23Jawad MirYeah.

52:24Richard Francis-BruceBut they're different stories, you know?

52:26Jawad MirYeah.

52:27Richard Francis-BruceSo yeah.

52:27Jawad MirSo, yeah, no, it, so it's true, and I'm... I mean, it's funny you mention about Transformers 16, right? How many Harry Potter movies are there? Seven, I think, or eight?

52:36Richard Francis-BruceSeven. Yeah.

52:37Jawad MirYeah, and that you only did one, the first one…

52:39Richard Francis-BruceYeah

52:39Jawad Mir... With Chris Columbus.

52:41Richard Francis-BruceHe wanted me to do…

52:41Jawad MirYeah

52:41Richard Francis-Bruce... The second one, but I'd spent too much time away from home in London.

52:45Jawad MirYeah.

52:46Richard Francis-BruceYear, o… over a year. Although my wife was with me, but we were just, like, enough already of the English weather. It really, it was, like, terrible.

52:57Jawad MirRain… raining all the time. Great.

53:00Richard Francis-BruceNice talking to you.

53:01Jawad MirThank you so much, Richard.

53:02Richard Francis-BruceSee you.

53:02Jawad MirLikewise. Take care. Bye-bye.

53:04Richard Francis-BruceBye.

53:06Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.