'Stephen Curry, Underrated', Editor, J.D. Marlow

0:08Jawad MirYeah. So I, have saw your film, the one that you worked on as an editor, Stephen Curry: The Unrated. I'll tell you, before I get into anything else, just gonna give you my initial reaction. I'm not into basketball at all. Right? I follow some other sports like NHL sometimes here and there, but not very severely. Cricket mostly, maybe tennis.

0:31J.D. MarlowOh, cool.

0:32Jawad MirBut NBA or basketball is something, other than my kids being in school's team, I have no interest of. So going into the film, I just knew about Stephen Curry. Other than that, I had no idea who he was, his history, and I totally dug into the film. Like, my wife and I saw it, and we really got engrossed. I mean, she's a big NBA fan, but we really got hooked on, and it was really well done, so kudos to you.

1:00J.D. MarlowOh, cool. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's always nice to hear from someone who's not a basketball person.

1:08Jawad MirYeah. Well, because, you know, there's that detachment, right, to the sport if you are into it, and I, and I really appreciated the fact that I've, I've seen, I think, six, seven episodes of that series, on Michael Jordan. I don't remember the name that came on that.

1:23J.D. MarlowLast Dance.

1:24Jawad MirYeah, Last Dance.

1:25J.D. MarlowYeah.

1:25Jawad MirIt was... That was great, too, but what was so great about this one, and that's nothing to do with the story or the series of that, because this one focused on his roots, and the amount of footage that you guys had access to in terms of his school, I mean, that really played for me a lot. Maybe it's because of the nostalgia that, you know, when we were young, we used to do this and that.

1:50Jawad MirBut it's just that journey of getting to where you are as opposed to what we already see on TV, you know, in news and something that's never been featured into that much depth.

2:00J.D. MarlowYeah. I mean, I totally agree. It's, you know, there's a lot of reasons why a film can end up sort of taking the shape that it does, and that was really the biggest thing, at least from my point of view. I mean, we had present day material that's in the film, but I always kept going back to the Davidson story. I mean, that was the heart of it anyway, but it always felt more interesting to me than, the guy who's already on the mountaintop and has nothing left to prove, you know? So...

2:32Jawad MirRight. Great. We'll come back to the film. I would love to know your journey, what got you into, filmmaking, whether it's narrative or documentary, that's what you mostly do. Just kind of guide me through your path that... We have an hour, so you can go into as much depth as you want.

2:51J.D. MarlowYeah. I,.. Gosh, I mean, I was making films in high school. Even going back into middle school, I think, my brother was in a video class in, like, eighth grade or something, and I thought, "That looks so cool. I would love to do that, too." And, so we've, you know, we're... I have a twin brother.

3:13J.D. MarlowSo same age, obviously. So we kind of, played around with that stuff at home, and, at some point in high school, I thought, like, "Man, I really wanna make a movie, but how do you make a movie that looks like a movie…

3:28Jawad MirRight

3:28J.D. Marlow... You know, with no…

3:28Jawad MirRight

3:28J.D. Marlow... No resources?" And this was, like, in the days of MiniDV…

3:33Jawad MirYeah

3:33J.D. Marlow... Was the thing, and, you know, digital was just starting to become… ... Kind of accessible to the average person. And so I thought, "Well, you know what? If you made a documentary, you could sit somebody down who's really smart and interview them about a real topic and make something that's, like, plausible." Like, somebody would actually watch it and think…

3:55J.D. Marlow... "This is a good story," or, "This is a real..." You know, "This wasn't just made by a high school kid." so I did that, and I did it all throughout high school. I made short films, and, I did, you know, some longer things just as a high school kid and…

4:12Jawad MirSure

4:12J.D. Marlow... Went to film school and, you know. Long story short, I made narrative films in college and, but I always came back to documentary as kind of the thing that interested me the most and, you know, editing sort of became the place that felt most comfortable to me. And so yeah, I've been doing it for a while now. You know, I worked my way up. I was assisting and, you know, you know, I don't know how in depth you wanna get on that stuff, but, like, you know, when I talk to editors, it's always sort of like, "How did you actually become an editor if you were an assistant editor?" All that kind of stuff and…

4:56Jawad MirYeah. I mean, the reason I ask you is I'm in the film world, too, and I've been... I've meant… started out doing... I wanted to do narrative, but somehow I landed into the world of documentary, you know, having d… done about five or six feature documentaries already. But the idea of, you know, how you... Like, I never... It's funny because, you know, you, when you talked about transitioning into MiniDV when you started, when I started, it was film crossing over to just digital. Like, it was the eight millimeters in the early 2000s. And I always thought I would be the director, which I am, but I think on course of doing that, you know, camera work, editing, and I enjoy it, but sometimes it gets a little too much, you know, either…

5:43Jawad Mir... Either way. But the reason I was asking you was because it fascinates me as a filmmaker. Everybody has a different journey, right? And even sometimes you do that editing job on your own film, but then to get onto a bigger film, you may have to downgrade yourself to assistant editor and then work your way back up. Just kinda guide me through that, like, those kind of decisions that you had to make and not let your ego come in the way.

6:08J.D. MarlowYeah. Well, I mean, I think maybe a good example is, this was like maybe 2011, I was working on a project. It was like the first feature job that I had sort of been on as an editor and…

6:25Jawad MirSure

6:25J.D. Marlow... So I was pretty green at the time when it came to, like, doing a feature. And, that was kind of a journey, and, went on for a year and a half plus, and it was challenging in all kinds of ways. And, you know, I didn't know what I didn't know and all that kind of stuff. But the film got finished and, you know, went to South by Southwest and people saw it, and it was,.. You know, we felt good about it. And, there wasn't an editing job in sight for me. I went back to assistant editing. I mean, like, it was like, you know, it didn't matter. It wasn't a movie…

7:05Jawad MirYeah

7:05J.D. Marlow... That, like, enough people saw. It didn't move the needle for my career in a way that, you know, was meaningful. So it was sort of that moment of like, "Okay, I guess I'll just go back to that grind for a little bit and see what happens," 'cause it's just not a linear path that way.

7:22Jawad MirIt's not.

7:23J.D. MarlowAnd…

7:23Jawad MirIt's not

7:23J.D. Marlow... You know, and I know so many people that, you know, feel the same way. And, you know, there's a mentorship element that comes into it too that I'm more aware of now as an editor, working with assistants and sort of what that responsibility is like. And, so yeah, it's, you know, I think because of the nature of what it is, it's project to project. You just kind of have to hope that, like, a reputation takes hold in the minds of people you've never met and that, you know, if that's the thing you wanna do, that will hopefully, get some traction at some point. Which for me it eventually did, but there was also kinds of luck involved. I mean, the film that eventually sort of did the most for me was this Norman Lear biography, that I worked on in 2015. And I was hired as an assistant, working with my now friend, Danat CD, and she had to leave the project, for some personal reasons.

8:28J.D. MarlowAnd so it was kind of like a luck meets opportunity… ... Means, you know, you're thrown into the fire kind of thing. And…

8:36Jawad MirYeah

8:37J.D. Marlow... I think even somebody else had come on that project for maybe a month and ended up leaving it as well, 'cause it was just too much. And it was like, "All right. Well, I'm here. I'm gonna finish it, and, hopefully this is, doesn't tear me apart." but you know, we opened Sundance that year with that film, so it just worked out.

8:58Jawad MirThat's, that's so amazing, right? Like, it's, it's always the things that you think will give you a break, more than likely they never do. More than likely. And the things that... And the thing, the projects that you are, that's been turned down by two people, how the universe was trying to get you in there and c… create a path for you. It's... I hear this all the time, but every time I hear it's just so fascinating that, you know, every time I make a film, like, "Okay, this is it. This is the one." But

9:30J.D. MarlowYeah

9:30Jawad Mir... It gets to a certain point, and it doesn't go to that beyond point. And I know it's like when you're least expecting something, that's when things happen in life. And it's so cool…

9:40J.D. MarlowTotally

9:40Jawad Mir... To hear that, man. It's so cool to hear that. I…

9:42J.D. MarlowYeah, and I think, you know, the common denominator is just that, you know, putting everything you have into what's in front of you

9:49Jawad MirYeah

9:49J.D. Marlow... And trying to control what you can that way.

9:53Jawad MirExactly

9:53J.D. Marlow... Because, you know, even now, you know, when I think about, like, what am I gonna do next? What's the next project I wanna be a part of or what are people offering me? You're making these decisions about your future because, you know, things are kind of a year at a time. It's like everything is just sort of best guess, you know? And but once you... Is this thing gonna be worthwhile? Is this thing gonna work out? 'Cause with documentary, it's like you can be on something that seems like a good idea, and it just falls apart.

10:23Jawad MirYeah.

10:23J.D. MarlowYou know? So…

10:24Jawad MirYeah

10:24J.D. Marlow... So it's all kind of best guess. But once you're, once it… it's in front of you and you're responsible for it's, you know, you have to give it everything you've got…

10:35Jawad MirYou've got

10:35J.D. Marlow... And that's all you really can do.

10:39Jawad MirBut I think it's also the attitude of all of us changes as we get older, right? Like, you know, initially it's probably, you know, "I need to do a project that's gonna give me a break," but then eventually whether you get that break or not, that's besides the point, or whatever the definition of that is. You wanna do something that clicks with you. I think that's the most important part, that speaks to you. Because if you're on a project that's not speaking to you, then you're not gonna be able to do the best that you think you can, as opposed to the one that you were c… you know, feeling connected to for whatever personal reasons.

11:13J.D. MarlowA… absolutely. And I, you know, I feel very lucky to be able to make choices now. I can, I can afford to say no to something if it doesn't speak to me. If you're 10 years ago, whatever, like, you... Or you're an assistant coming up, like, you don't always have that luxury.

11:34Jawad MirNo.

11:34J.D. MarlowAnd I totally appreciate that for, younger folks or, you know, people who just wanna get a foot in the door doing the thing they wanna do. And that's something that you also have to deal with when you're trying to find a path for yourself. And there, you know, the hard thing can be, like, if you do end up in a situation where this is kind of your only choice and you're not enjoying it, like, what then?

12:01Jawad MirYeah.

12:01J.D. MarlowDoes it mean you don't like what you're doing? Does it mean it's the project? Is it the people? It's, like, hard to know, 'cause you just haven't, maybe you just don't have enough, you know, in your, in your bag to tell the difference, and that can be hard too. But it's a journey, you know? You know, but I, what I, what I will say though is like the best lesson that I have learned over the years is like even if you're assisting or doing a lower sort of tier job in the…

12:32Jawad MirSure

12:32J.D. Marlow... Process or you're not directly involved in the s… you know, the circle of creativity, make sure that you're still leaving an impression on the people around you, that you…

12:44Jawad MirYeah

12:45J.D. Marlow... Know what you're doing and that you're, you know, giving it, as much as you can. That has always paid dividends for me, so.

12:54Jawad MirYeah. That's, that's so true, and I think a lot of people, whether they're in their 20s or even 30s, maybe even some 40s, is one mistake that they make, it's important to have the technical know-how, obviously, the editing and the skill set that you need for whether you're doing a DaVinci, Premiere, or Avid. But it's the, work ethic. Like, that's something that people completely undermine. I mean, I have seen people getting work who weren't that great in what they did, but their work ethic was a killer, and they moved forward. And because you can always learn skills. You can't learn work ethic as you grow older. Like, it just kinda embeds with you. It's very tough to improve on that.

13:37J.D. MarlowI totally agree, and the people that I've loved working with the most were not the people, and who I'm friends with and wanna work with again, you know, like are the people that when I met them weren't like ace editors or ace assistants. It's because like I could tell on day one, like this person just had a mind for like…

13:57Jawad MirYeah

13:58J.D. Marlow... They were driven to get better, and they were committed to whatever it is they were doing on the day or the week. And I just so respect that, and it's such a, you know, thing. It… that's what I would've done. That's what I want the people that I'm working with to be like, you know? And it's unfortunately not always the case, but

14:19Jawad MirYeah

14:19J.D. Marlow... It's, it seems like a simple sort of cliche thing to say, but it is really important. I mean…

14:26Jawad MirIt is

14:26J.D. Marlow... If you're…

14:27Jawad MirYeah

14:27J.D. Marlow... And even if you like made it or had a break or whatever, it's like it's still important. You still have to like…

14:32Jawad MirYou… You gotta keep, you gotta actually... You know, I was talking to Simon Wells who directed, co-directed Prince of Egypt and bunch of other films, and we were talking about the same thing, and it's like, you know, y… in that same analogy of nepotism, like, you know, when they talk about that such and such actor or director has a father or a mother. Yeah, they can get that entry, but how long can they sustain themselves on their own, you know, skill set or their work ethic as opposed to their parents or their sibling? And that's the thing.

15:04J.D. MarlowYeah.

15:04Jawad MirLike, you gotta keep topping yourself every time because there is immense amount of competition out there, and you, everybody's waiting for better or for worse for you to fail and to have an empty… Yeah, there's... And it's true, though. Not in a, i… not in a negative way, but you know what I mean, right? Like, people are…

15:20J.D. MarlowI do know what you mean

15:21Jawad Mir... Waiting.

15:21J.D. MarlowAnd it's, it can be hard. You know, I definitely, you know, I don't really care how good or bad the last thing I did went. I still…

15:31Jawad MirYeah

15:31J.D. Marlow... Feel intense pressure when I start…

15:33Jawad MirOf course

15:33J.D. Marlow... Something new to deliver and to… ... Deliver something that's not just like okay. And, you know, I think in a lotta ways, the more you s… you do deliver, the more you're expected to deliver again. And, you know, it's, it's hard, but that is, you know, that challenge, I think, is also what I like about, you know, editing and this work. And, you know, I think, you know, I don't have a ton of narrative feature experience, scripted experience, but, you know, I can speak for the documentary world, w… which is that, like, you have an outsize influence over how it comes together.

16:14Jawad MirYeah.

16:14J.D. MarlowAnd, you know, I think, I know editors in the narrative scripted world that they have incredible influence, too, and I'm not saying they don't, but there is no... I mean, people know there's no script.

16:26Jawad MirFor sure.

16:26J.D. MarlowLike, we…

16:27Jawad MirYeah

16:27J.D. Marlow... We're starting from a blank canvas in so many ways, and things get reinvented and, you know, m… multiple times. I mean, you know. So it's, it's a process.

16:37Jawad MirYeah.

16:37J.D. MarlowAnd, so I like having that. You know, it's a, it's a pressure, but it's also, it's such an opportunity to help shape something, and it's…

16:47Jawad MirYeah

16:48J.D. Marlow... It can be so, thrilling when something comes together after however w… weeks, months of…

16:55Jawad MirYears. Years of work

16:55J.D. Marlow... Frustr… yeah, or years. Or years…

16:57Jawad MirYeah

16:58J.D. Marlow... Of total frustration.

17:00Jawad MirAnd it's, it's incredible, right? That you're actually creating something, and I was having this conversation with my DP as well, is that we were talking about that how it's easy, for the lack of better word, for people who do docs to go into narrative work versus the other way around. Because we are dealing with, like when you're dealing with a real-time story like the one that you did, on Steph Curry, it's, the story's always evolving. It's not like you're making a documentary on Hitler or Stalin or somebody else or, you know, any other particular historical topic where you have sort of figured it out. But when you have an ongoing story in real time, it's like you have like 10 different paths and you're constantly juggling things around to see where, how you get to that destination at the end point.

17:46J.D. MarlowTotally. Totally. And there's so many parts to it that are fascinating to me. I mean, it's like even if you are telling a past tense story that isn't evolving in real time, you still have to discover a language…

17:58Jawad MirYou do

17:59J.D. Marlow... Like…

17:59Jawad MirYeah

17:59J.D. Marlow... That works for that story. And, you know, it's a movie. It's not a textbook. It's not a PowerPoint.

18:06Jawad MirYeah.

18:06J.D. MarlowSo it's, there's all these opportunities to find, you know, inc… different ways to tell a story in an interesting way and I love all that. I mean, I think that's just part of the fun.

18:21Jawad MirIt is. I, of course, like, for the archival stuff, like, you do need that kind of voice, but what I meant by real time was it's always changing as you are... You know, the director's still shooting, and, "Oh, now we gotta do this because the story changed or pivoted."

18:34J.D. MarlowTotally.

18:34Jawad MirYeah.

18:34J.D. MarlowTotally, yeah. I mean, and that's, that's its own thing. I mean, I did a series for Showtime a few years ago that was very much like that where they, you know, they had committed a series that, to Showtime, "We're gonna deliver this many episodes of a, of a show," and they were, like, trying to, like, hunt down a con man, and they didn't know if they were gonna get him. So it was like... And, you know, like, and I had started, cutting the series, and we didn't even know what was gonna happen. We were like…

19:07Jawad MirYeah

19:07J.D. Marlow... "This could totally flop." Like, it just... So, you know, it ended up being interesting, but that was not guaranteed.

19:15Jawad MirWell, I, for me personally, and maybe that will change in time, is that t… three of the films that I have, directed, they've literally been I had no idea where the hell is this gonna go. Like, I ha… I had a wishful ending that, you know, a sister finds her sister who was in a camp in China or, you know, s… somebody's in a detention center tries to escape and meets their family, but I had no idea if that was actually gonna happen. And it's, it's scary as hell, but at the same time, it is amazing. I don't know how those two feelings go together, but not knowing what's gonna happen, it's like you're part of the audience. You know, you're kind of feeling it as it goes along.

19:57J.D. MarlowYeah. But it's kinda magical, too. I mean, it's high risk, high reward kind of…

20:04Jawad MirYeah

20:04J.D. Marlow... Stuff. Very stressful. I know. And if, you know... You know, I'm not the director. I'm, I'm, I'm here to help deliver the movie, but it's like, it's, I think it's even more stressful when you're the director and it's like you've got it all on the line there. I mean, how did, how did you... H… how were you dealing with those situations when you found yourself in them?

20:24Jawad MirWell, I knew that... Like, when I started both of the documentaries following two different protagonists, I knew what situation they were in and what their end goal was. And how do you get there, I had no fricking clue. At least for, specifically for one of them, In Search of My Sister, basically it was this American Uyghur activist whose sister was taken by the Chinese Communist Party due to her activism in the United States, and it's about her trying to free her sister and create awareness. That was the story. Now, how the hell do you get there? And we literally followed her in 13 countries and, you know…

21:05J.D. MarlowWow. Oh my gosh

21:05Jawad Mir... And it was just... And then COVID happened, and then we had to do stuff during COVID remotely and…

21:12J.D. MarlowWow

21:12Jawad Mir... And it was, it was insane, but at the same time... And it was, it was tough mentally because it was a very, both of them were very serious subjects. But at the same time, like I said, it was very f… it was, it was fun in the most weirdest way I should say this, but that it just kept me going, it kept me pushing, to find that answer and, as an audience member, "Okay, is this gonna happen? Is this gonna happen?" And like, you know, one week would be like, "Oh, crap, now we have to change this. We have to shift this." But, you know, it's just part of the process.

21:43J.D. MarlowYeah. And I really think that, you know, it's so great, I think, when you, when you have those experiences as a filmmaker, too, because, you know, from my point of view, if I'm coming into a project and I see a bunch of material, it's like, I... If that was the experience you had in making it, you know, shouldn't, shouldn't that make its way into the essence of the story? You know, if you're following something and you don't know how…

22:10Jawad MirYeah

22:10J.D. Marlow... It's gonna end, like, that feeling should be there somewhere. Like, there's no reason to pretend like we knew what was gonna happen. It's, that's part of the drama as well…

22:20Jawad MirYeah

22:21J.D. Marlow... In a lot of ways. So…

22:22Jawad MirAnd I think it naturally comes into it because you are literally expressing yourself through an editor. ... But it just comes across because you just don't know how things are gonna pan out and, but

22:35J.D. MarlowYeah

22:35Jawad Mir... But yeah, no. An… anyways, tell me about, your... How did you get on board on this project, on St… Stephen Curry: Underrated?

22:47J.D. MarlowA little bit circuitously. It was, it was kind of like a strange confluence of events. I was weirdly... So I was approached by A24 about doing a project, not a specific project, and they had pitched me one thing that I wasn't that interested in, and then they were like, "Well, what about this basketball movie?" And I was like, "Yes, please." I had just…

23:17Jawad MirAre you a basketball fan, or...?

23:20J.D. MarlowVery, like, casually.

23:23Jawad MirOkay

23:23J.D. Marlow... I played basketball when I was younger and I…

23:26Jawad MirGot it

23:26J.D. Marlow... You know, I'm not... I don't go to games. I don't watch games, but, you know…

23:31Jawad MirYeah

23:31J.D. Marlow... I kinda follow it. And I had seen Stephen Curry play, like, in 2009 at Madison Square Garden when he was still at Davidson. And I remember… ... That time very clearly and thinking, "This guy's great," like... "and I don't really feel like people know that yet, or maybe they know it a little, but they don't…

23:52J.D. Marlow... They don't see that he's really great." I remember feeling that way at the time, so that was sort of nostalgic for me. But I also, I had just finished working on this film about, like, journalists being sort of attacked around the world and, you know, for HBO called Endangered. It was just, like, a very dark…

24:15Jawad MirYeah

24:16J.D. Marlow... Heavy subject, and I just, like… I thought, "I haven't done a sports film. This looks fun." you know, it ought to be fun, it ought to feel good. And it, you know, it was all those things, so. But oddly, I had this very strange experience though, 'cause I didn't know Peter Nicks before working on this. I had seen The Force, and I knew of him, which is a great movie, and, but he was at the office that I was in New York one day when I was finishing this film Endangered, and I hadn't been offered the Steph Curry thing yet. I didn't know he was directing the Steph Curry thing.

24:58Jawad MirOh, wow.

24:58J.D. MarlowHe was talking to Heidi Ewing, who was one of the directors of Endangered, and I was sort of going to get coffee, and I said, "Hello," and he said, "Are you an editor?" I said, "Yes," and I said, "Nice to meet you," and walked away. And then, like, two weeks later was on a Zoom with him sort of interviewing for that job. It was just like…

25:14Jawad MirWow

25:15J.D. Marlow... Well, 'cause he's a… he doesn't live in New York. He lives in the Bay Area… ... So, you know, he's West Coast. So it was just, like, a very weird, like, that's so strange that I met you unknowingly two weeks ago. But, I was lucky enough that they hired me, and, you know, it was about a year on it, so it was intense, but, it was a lot of fun also. So really glad…

25:40Jawad MirGreat

25:40J.D. Marlow... I was able to be part of it.

25:43Jawad MirI'm glad that you were, because, I mean, again, the universe was trying to guide you to the place, you know, the right place.

25:50J.D. MarlowYeah.

25:50Jawad MirAnd I will tell you, like, there were some great moments that we'll talk about in the film, but one thing... We, I mean, and we know it's a feel-good story, right? But at the same time, there are so many things in there. The one thing that really hit me was in the end when he thanks his coach. I mean, that was... And then when he hugs him, and then his mom crying, it was just… Like, I was just completely, you know, in awe and deeply moved, very. It was just powerful. And obviously it's, you know, his speech and everything, but it's a combination of things. It's editing, it's, you know, of music. It's sound mixing and all that stuff. Like, I just wanted to make that point. That was… And then the look on his face, the coach's face, I forget his name, he's just staring at him, and you can see this guy's about to, like, burst into tears. And that's something that you see throughout the film. Like, you will see parts where, you know, you… the way you edited that, s… certain interviews, you'll see them just looking, you know, the side profile at the camera, and there'll be, like, an emotional dialogue going, and they're just very emotional about it, and it just draws you in.

26:58Jawad MirLike, that really stood out for me the most.

27:02J.D. MarlowYeah, no, I… thank you. I mean, it… I think the wonderful thing about that story, I mean, Coach McKillop, I had the pleasure of meeting him, at, when we premiered at Sundance, and he's just a wonderful person, you know? There's like… He's, he's the most genuine, warm human being you can imagine, and the… it's such a special relationship that they had and still have to this day, that I found that to be the most moving part of this story in a lot of ways, and something that I didn't really know about or appreciate as a fan, even a casual fan. It's like the thing… the people that have to be involved in somebody's growth, and it ma… making sure it's the right people and, you know, finding those connections. And his story did not have to go the way it went.

28:01J.D. MarlowIt was not inevitable. I truly believe that. You know, he could've been sitting on the bench at some high-tier school just, you know…

28:12Jawad MirYeah

28:13J.D. Marlow... Be… behind all the actual stars on the team. But, you know, he found himself in this place for a reason, and he found himself surrounded by really good people that cared about him, and he put in the work, and it's, it's just a very special relationship that I found very moving and touching. So, you know, we wanted to bring that out as much as possible, and it,.. I'm so glad you feel that way about the ending. You know, we just so wanted that to feel like...

28:42Jawad MirOh, no, it was powerful, man.

28:43J.D. MarlowYou know…

28:43Jawad MirIt was very powerful

28:44J.D. Marlow... A great payoff. Yeah, and it's, it's,.. You know, I think it's just… it's unique. You don't… You know, there's a lot of sports stars, superstars that sort of make it to the top because it is inevitable. LeBron James…

29:04J.D. Marlow... You know? It's like he was inevitable. Like, barring some, like, horrible injury or something. Not to take anything away from LeBron James, 'cause he's been… he's unlike anybody on the planet in so many ways and has probably worked so hard to keep himself there. But, like, I think that's part of what is inspiring about the story, you know? He's obviously… Stephen Curry is an incredible talent, and h… I think he possesses gifts that, you and I do not have. There's no question.

29:38Jawad MirYeah.

29:39J.D. MarlowBut it could've been, could've been squashed before it got started.

29:45Jawad MirYeah.

29:45J.D. MarlowI really... You know?

29:47Jawad MirYeah, you're right, man. You're absolutely right, because, you know, normally, like, you'll see movies like the narrative ones, like, Dead Poets Society or Mighty Ducks, so, you know, where there's always that teacher figure who brings people up.

29:59Jawad MirBut those are films, as great as they are. And I think what… When I… Again, I didn't know the story. Like, I don't even know about Davidson. Like, I was just complete blank. I hadn't even seen the trailer. Like, I knew…

30:11J.D. MarlowOh, great.

30:12Jawad Mir... No… nothing about it. So here I was thinking as I was watching it that it's about how he won NBA championships, like, you know, the right… the, most of the films are like that, and I thought his mom would be the key role… Because they kept showing her throughout the, you guys kept showing her throughout the film but just to have that coach element, which was there throughout the film, I did not expect that. Like, I just did not go there at all because I was so deeply immersed into it. And the one thing that I loved about the editing that how it kinda kept going back and forth, with connections, obviously, the present and the past. And, you know, it's, it's just, again, I've said this enough times, I genuinely feel now, I mean, I'm, I shouldn't say this, that I can probably start watching basketball because of this film. 'Cause I was never into it. Like, it really hooked me on. And I saw the Michael Jordan one.

31:13Jawad MirIt wasn't something that appealed to me. It was great, but this one was just... Maybe it was a long series, maybe that's why I got tired of it, but…... This was just, this was just different. It was, it was really…

31:24J.D. MarlowThey're very…

31:24Jawad Mir... Beautiful

31:25J.D. Marlow... Yeah, I mean, they're very different. A, there's been a lot of comparison, I think, for one reason or another, probably 'cause they're both just mega stars, but…

31:33Jawad MirYeah

31:33J.D. Marlow... They're, they're, they're quite different. Well, that's gre… I mean, listen, that's, like, the highest compliment, so thank you. I think it's…

31:41Jawad MirNo

31:41J.D. Marlow... It's a, it's a great, it's a great story, and in a lot of non-basketball ways. And that's…

31:48Jawad MirYeah

31:49J.D. Marlow... I think that's what I was probably drawn to also in sort of thinking, like, is this something I would, you know, wanna commit a year

32:00Jawad MirYeah

32:00J.D. Marlow... To working on. You're always looking for those more kind of, like, universal themes and ideas, no matter what the story is and…

32:12Jawad MirYeah

32:12J.D. Marlow... This felt rich with that.

32:16Jawad MirFor sure. Can you recall a day, an evening, or a week where things... I mean, that happens in all the projects, and it happens more than once, but just something that stood out where it was like, "How are we gonna get through this?" and maybe having, you know, a disagreement with a director or director having a disagreement with you. Because a… at the end of the day, it's about the film, right? It's not about who's right and wrong. And we all disagree just to find the best result. Can you remember any particular story i, in that sense?

32:53J.D. MarlowLet me think. I mean, I think we had... I don't know if there's, like, a specific moment I can think of. There were, you know, every film has challenges. We certainly had our sh… our share of challenges as far as sort of sourcing the best archive we could find. And, you know, I think one of the, that was one of the sort of early things that we were dealing with was when you're kind of trying to wrap your head around what you've got…

33:30Jawad MirYeah

33:30J.D. Marlow... And let that inform, well, then how do we tell the story with what we've got here? 'cause I spent, like, seven weeks just watching material. I didn't cut anything for, like…

33:43Jawad MirGood for you

33:43J.D. Marlow... Almost two months, which was, you know, I thought at the time was a luxury. It felt like a luxury at the time. But, you know, in retrospect, it's, like, was totally necessary 'cause we weren't quite sure what we were gonna do…

33:58Jawad MirYeah

33:58J.D. Marlow... When I started. But we ended up hiring a researcher to kind of do some deeper digging on things to try and suss out a little bit more material from his college days, and that ended up yielding some really great results for us and opened up some possibilities. There was one student in particular who was, like, a mega Curry fan at the time, you know, was in his class, went to all the games…

34:33J.D. Marlow... Traveled to Detroit when they played in the tournament there. And it turned out that she had a bunch of videos that we didn't have yet. And, you know, there were some nuggets in there that I just loved, that just felt like, you know, it just brought a little bit more intimacy and, authenticity to that time. There's one moment in particular where probably most people wouldn't really take note of it, but I just, I just loved it, during the, I think it was the Wisconsin game

35:10J.D. Marlow... It's when they first go to Detroit, and they're playing in this big football stadium, and it's just, like, this huge deal and…

35:15Jawad MirRight

35:16J.D. Marlow... You know, we mostly just had broadcast footage and some photographs from a few people. But she had a video from the student section where they had bussed all the students out to come and watch the game. And his parents are walking up the stairs, and they're like, "Hi, Mrs. Curry."

35:35Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, she waves them up. Yeah.

35:37J.D. MarlowAnd they're like, "Hi." 'Cause it was just, like, this little community. I mean, they, that's how it was for them. And his mom, Sonya, talked about that with us at great length, just how special that community was to her. And it was a small community. It was this big national story at the time that this school was in, you know, the Sweet 16. But, like, at its heart, it was, like, all these students being bussed out to Detroit and Curry's parents…... Being like, "Hi, everybody," you know, like so I just love that, and I just, you know. Without little things like that, it's like you, it…

36:11Jawad MirYeah

36:11J.D. Marlow... Becomes a much staler…

36:13Jawad MirFor sure

36:13J.D. Marlow... Telling, I think. So…

36:15Jawad MirNo, you're right be…

36:15J.D. MarlowWe tried to eke out all we could with that s… kind of stuff.

36:19Jawad MirYou're absolutely right because that's one of the things I love, too, is, like, you know, you can watch a basketball game on TV period. But just, I don't know where you got the LeBron James reaction from and her, his mom and his dad and o… like, those things and then plus the one that you mentioned where the students, you know, wave h… "Hi, Mrs. Curry," like, those things make…... The, those scenes so much powerful. Other than that, it's just watching a sports game. Like, you know…

36:43J.D. MarlowExactly

36:43Jawad Mir... It's not the same thing.

36:45J.D. MarlowExactly. Yeah, I mean, and that was the challenge with that material is, you know, making those feel like scenes and not just highlight reels and to the best…

36:56Jawad MirYeah

36:56J.D. Marlow... That we can. And, finding, you know, stories within those scenes to help kind of like make it feel a little bit more special. 'Cause it's, it sort of is what it is on some level. It's like these comeback stories and those particular… and there's four games, and they all have to feel different. And…

37:17Jawad MirYeah

37:17J.D. Marlow... Two of them are very similar, 'cause they're like these big comebacks. But like, you know, I think another good example, which we didn't even have in the movie for a long time, we kind of added it at a pretty late stage, was this story about when they were really losing badly to, in the second round.

37:37Jawad MirOh, right. It was like of something like of…

37:40J.D. MarlowTo George… to Georgetown.

37:42Jawad Mir68 to 57 or something, the score was when they were coming…

37:45J.D. MarlowYeah, I mean, they were down by like 17 points. It was really bad. They were just kinda getting laughed out of the gym, and they took a timeout, and the coach was laughing and like, you know, and clapping, and he was like p… and they were all sort of confused. But he like genuinely believed they had a run in them, and that was, that was his tact, you know? But I just like that story, and it's like a nice…

38:07Jawad MirYeah

38:07J.D. Marlow... Moment that you wouldn't know that story just from watching the highlights or from the broadcast. You would only kind of get that from the players. And so

38:19Jawad MirYeah

38:19J.D. Marlow... That was something that we eventually put in, 'cause we felt…

38:22Jawad MirBeautiful

38:22J.D. Marlow... It was, it was good.

38:23Jawad MirNo, for, absolutely, man. And if there was one thing that you can recall, you know, whether you're a director, an editor, even a cinematographer, set designer, whatever kind of project you work on, there's always going to be a personal element of your journey, your own life, that is somehow going to get in there or you feel related to. Like was there a moment in the film where you, while you were working on it, that felt like, "Okay, this is me. This is…

38:57Jawad Mir... This is me. Th… this is my story, or close to something that I've experienced"? Not necessarily in basketball, just that overcoming things and struggling and fighting. It could be in your career or in high school.

39:10J.D. MarlowYeah, I mean, not in any direct way, 'cause I think that, you know, his journey is, you know, sort of unique. But like I think in broader terms, yeah. I mean, like I have to say like it's hard to sort of…

39:30Jawad MirPinpoint

39:31J.D. Marlow... Quantify in like…

39:32Jawad MirYeah

39:32J.D. Marlow... A specific way. But, a… and I feel this way to some degree on all the films I've worked on, but I felt like a very high pressure and sense of responsibility on this. Like maybe more so than even on some more serious films, just because there's such a fan base for him, and it's like…

39:54J.D. Marlow... I mean, you have to always get it right, but I felt, I just felt like we've really gotta get this right. Like we, you know…

40:02Jawad MirYeah

40:02J.D. Marlow... Like we, there's gonna be details that aren't in there, 'cause it's not a Wikipedia page. That's not a movie either.

40:09Jawad MirYeah.

40:09J.D. MarlowBut like we have to get the essence of this so right, and it has to... And lucky for us, like it's, it's very genuine. You know, like there's, you know, I think his path to where he is now is not something that he's like forgotten about at all. He thinks about it all the time…

40:31Jawad MirAll the time, yeah

40:31J.D. Marlow... Is my impression for… from listening to his interviews and from talking to him. And so, you know, it's all very genuine. And, whether or not the basketball-loving public agrees with his underrated status, you know, past or present, whatever, like that's how he feels. And that's, that's real. And, you know, and he's got the story to prove it, I think. So, you know, we kept coming back to that and just, you know, we have to, we have to find that essence and hold onto it, you know, as…

41:06Jawad MirYeah

41:07J.D. Marlow... As strongly as possible.

41:10Jawad MirYeah. And he's, y… you know, camera, when you're on camera, you can figure out if somebody is, you know, faking it or real, and he seems like a very genuine and humble guy. And I think his parents kinda kept him grounded and so did his coach. Nothing to take away from his own personality, I'm just, you know, speaking from what I saw. And…

41:30J.D. MarlowYeah

41:31Jawad Mir... And his journey about getting that degree paralleling to, you know, winning, at Davidson was just so beautiful, like the way you guys did the parallels and how it kind of in a very uni… it's not that you guys forced it, because that's what he was doing, promotes how important education is, you know? And…

41:52J.D. MarlowYeah, for sure

41:53Jawad Mir... And then a lot of these NBA players, NHL players are, most of them I would say, are not, you know, graduates of universities or colleges. They've just kinda gone beyond high school. So it, that was a really great…

42:06J.D. MarlowIt's pretty rare

42:06Jawad Mir... Message. Yeah.

42:07J.D. MarlowYeah.

42:07Jawad MirThat was a really great message.

42:08J.D. MarlowIt's pretty rare that somebody would go back and get their degree. I know, there's been a few other basketball players, like pretty famous ones that have done that over the years. In fact, I think Chris Paul, who's now on the Warriors, did that pretty soon, got his degree from Wake Forest pretty soon after Curry did. But it's rare. I mean, you know, and he did that, you know, he did it for his mom. You know?

42:32Jawad MirThat's what I was gonna say.

42:32J.D. MarlowThat's probably is for his mom, yeah.

42:34Jawad MirIt… It's clear... You know, he didn't say that. It wasn't explicit about it to us, but it's clear as day. I mean, it's like his mom…

42:42J.D. MarlowYeah

42:43Jawad Mir... Is such an important…

42:44J.D. Marlow... You know, force in his life. A… you know, h… both of his parents are, but, like, his mom's an educator. She's a Montessori teacher.

42:52Jawad MirYeah.

42:52J.D. MarlowShe, you know, this was so important to her, and, so even if it was something he... 'Cause he didn't need to do this, you know? Like, it…

43:03Jawad MirYeah

43:03J.D. Marlow... There's nothing he gets more than what he has by getting a degree from Davidson.

43:08Jawad MirYeah.

43:08J.D. MarlowYou know, they put his number up in the rafters, which is nice, 'cause they don't do that unless you're a graduate at Davidson. But, so that's cool. But yeah, I mean, it was for his mom and I think it's also, you know, coming back to, like, his relationship with the coach, you know, his whole draft story about making the decision to leave when he did, he didn't wanna leave. I mean, he would've stayed the four years. He loved being there. He loved…

43:43Jawad MirYeah

43:43J.D. Marlow... McKillop. He loved his teammates. He loved the experience. Like, his, you know, he wasn't like these guys who are, "You know, I'm gonna go to college for one year just so I can get drafted." Like, he wanted to stay and it, I think it was just so overwhelming. Like, he was, he was gonna get drafted really hi… like, he had to go, basically. It was, it would've been really stupid not to. But I think if he had, if he could've had it his way, he might've played one more year and just, you know…

44:15Jawad MirYeah

44:15J.D. Marlow... Graduated. So it speak, to me it speaks to sort of the importance of that college experience and how transformative it can, how it transformative it can be for somebody, whether it's, you know, Stephen Curry, the basketball player, or anybody who doesn't quite know where they fit in the world and…

44:38Jawad MirYeah

44:38J.D. Marlow... They spend that time figuring that out, or they find a mentor there or whatever. It's so important.

44:44Jawad MirI also think aside from, I mean, I'm just guessing this, I feel that aside from his mom being a, you know, teacher and educator, one thing that probably played a strong part in him going back to school is just to have him k… stay grounded, because that is such a big thing. You know, when you're at that level of where he is or other celebrities or NBA or NHL players, sometimes, you know, we're all, we're humans. You know, we tend to skittle. And I think that kinda keeps him grounded that, you know, he went back to school and he got education even though he had all the money and all the things that he wanted in the world at his fingertips.

45:26J.D. MarlowTotally. Totally. And I think that, you know, I can't speak for him at all, and it's not something I can relate to really.

45:36Jawad MirYeah.

45:36J.D. MarlowBut I would imagine that it's pretty hard. Like, it, you know, no one wants to hear, like, a really rich, successful person complain about their life, but I'd imagine that it is hard to stay grounded when you are…

45:48Jawad MirOf course. Yeah

45:49J.D. Marlow... At the level that he's at. He's, you know, he's like, what he, well, so when he graduated, when he had his graduation, thing, which was, which was a ceremony they made just for him. It was like a one-person graduation that they had 5,000 people attend. But he, you know, he held some practices on campus. He was there for a few days. We were filming with him, and it was d… it's like he's the president. I mean, it's just like y… you're, you can't live normally. You can't just walk around. Even going back to your school, you know?

46:30Jawad MirYeah.

46:30J.D. MarlowLike, it's just everybody wants a piece of you and wants to watch you and so, you know, I think it's impossible, I think, to avoid that. You, but so, you know, I don't... I would love to pick his brain more about sort of how he deals with that. And that, and that, the sort of fame part of his life was something that we talked a lot about and how that would fit into the story. And unfortunately, well, for better or worse, you know, kind, it kind of fell away because of the fact that we were kind of really focused on the Davidson story. It was really more about the past than the present.

47:10Jawad MirYeah.

47:11J.D. MarlowBut I think as far as his present, you know, yeah, I just, I imagine it's,.. I was just listening to another podcast today actually with a, with a couple of comedians, and they were talking about touching the sun, as it were, you know, and once you touch it, you can't, you can't go back.

47:31Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

47:31J.D. MarlowSo I think he's probably touched the sun.

47:34Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, he, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing that you guys d… I'm so glad that you guys didn't play on the fame part because just thinking about it for me, that would've been a game changer in the film. Like, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed it or loved it as much because it just makes, it just makes it for ordinary people. Like, you know, you're not, everybody connects to it. And when you bring in that celebritarianism, which is great, there's nothing wrong with it, I think ordinary people, they just can't s… they can't connect at a very deep level. So I'm glad that you guys stuck with that.

48:12J.D. MarlowYeah, I mean, I also think that, like, it's a, it's a super interesting theme and it's, it has, you know, played itself out in so many stories.

48:22Jawad MirYeah.

48:22J.D. MarlowAnd it sort of felt, to us at least, almost a little bit generic as it applied to this story, and it really wasn't…

48:32Jawad MirSure

48:32J.D. Marlow... The most interesting thing that we had at our fingertips, so.

48:37Jawad MirRight. Perfect. What's next for you now? Anything on the, in the pipeline or?

48:43J.D. MarlowYeah, I mean, you know, oddly I finished working on this in December, so I was able to take a little bit of time off, and I've been on a, another project now for a few months. So

48:56Jawad MirGreat

48:56J.D. Marlow... Yeah, it's, maybe four months…

49:01Jawad MirYou…

49:01J.D. Marlow... Into it.

49:02Jawad MirYeah, you don't have to talk about it if you don't want to. That's fine.

49:05J.D. MarlowI don't think it's a secret. I just, I don't know if I'm, how much I'm supposed to say about it or not. So…

49:13Jawad MirIt's fine. Don't worry about it

49:14J.D. Marlow... I'll, I won't, I won't get into it, but it's, it's something for HBO, and I…

49:19Jawad MirGreat

49:19J.D. Marlow... You know, so should hopefully, you know, be in the can in the next couple of months I think.

49:30Jawad MirGood.

49:31J.D. MarlowSo.

49:31Jawad MirFantastic, man.

49:32J.D. MarlowYeah.

49:32Jawad MirThat's good. So you must be really, busy in peak time, so thank you so much for taking the time to chat.

49:39J.D. MarlowYeah. No, absolutely. A… again, I appreciate the invite. So, you know, I, whenever I have conversations with people about anything film related, editing, whatever, whether it's for like a podcast or something else, I always say like I could talk about this stuff all day. It's just…

49:55Jawad MirYeah, I know. I know I know.

49:58J.D. MarlowEndlessly…

49:59Jawad MirIt's so funny…

49:59J.D. Marlow... Fascinating to me.

50:01Jawad MirIt's so funny you say that because, like, when I do these podcasts where I'm sitting down and having a lunch with somebody in the industry, I just don't want it to end, you know, because, but at the same time, we all have things to do, and life is waiting for us. But it's, it's great. It's been great, and thank you so much for doing a terrifically dynamic job on this film. Not just you, obviously the entire team. And, I'm gonna... We started, we started watching with our kids, but our kids were in a different mindset at that moment…... But I'm gonna, I'm gonna push them to watch this because they both lo… they're both in basketball teams and didn't wanna watch it, which was kinda weird. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure they watch it because a big message for everybody, for kids, adults, young people.

50:43J.D. MarlowYeah.

50:43Jawad MirIt's an amazing film. Thank you so much.

50:46J.D. MarlowWell, thank you. It was great to chat.

50:48Jawad MirLet's chat more when we, when you, have done the HBO, project, and when it's out maybe we can chat about that.

50:54J.D. MarlowAbsolutely. Love to.

50:56Jawad MirPerfect. Thanks, man. Appreciate your time.

50:57J.D. MarlowThank you. All right.

50:58Jawad MirHave a good one.

50:59J.D. MarlowTake care.

50:59Jawad MirTake care. Bye.

50:59J.D. MarlowBye.

51:00Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.