'Franklin', Composer, Jay Wadley

0:00Jawad MirI just saw the trailer of this new documentary that's coming out on Celine Dion, right?

0:04Jay WadleyOh, yeah.

0:04Jawad MirIt's called

0:04Jay WadleyI did too.

0:05Jawad MirI didn't listen to Celine Dion growing up, but everybody knows about Celine Dion because mainly probably from Titanic, unless you're a fan. That I wondered after watching the trailer, why did I get so involved with Celine Dion's movie trailer?

0:18Jay WadleyYeah, it... And it takes me back to that experience and something that I actually, you know, miss, about my musical life right now, which is singing. 'Cause I was a vocalist.

0:29Jawad MirGustav Holst.

0:30Jay WadleyYeah.

0:30Jawad MirDid you ever listen to him? Yeah.

0:32Jay WadleyOf course, yeah.

0:33Jawad MirYeah.

0:33Jay WadleyWhich, like, heavily influenced Williams on his, Star Wars soundtrack.

0:37Jawad MirPeople do give up, and we all get those moments where we do wanna give up. It's very interesting if you think about where you were five years ago or 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago, and where you are today.

0:53Jay WadleyTotally. And there, and there are, like, different markers and, like, different markers of success and what that means for each person and what they're looking for. But, you know, and it's, you know, different than other worlds where maybe you see a title increase.

1:15Jawad MirYou know, it's good to have you. I haven't s… finished the series yet, Franklin, Apple TV+.

1:21Jay WadleyYeah.

1:21Jawad MirBut, I did see first two episodes, and I did listen to the soundtrack, which is available on Apple Music, and I'm guessing it's also available on Spotify.

1:30Jay WadleyYes.

1:30Jawad MirGreat soundtrack, first of all.

1:34Jay WadleyThank you.

1:36Jawad MirI mean, couple of things that stood out for me was kinda reminded me of the '90s and, you know, the classical composers like, you know, some of these people that you grew up listening to, like, you know, Mozart, Beethoven. There's a track in there called Try Harder…

1:54Jay WadleyYeah

1:54Jawad Mir... Or Trying Harder.

1:55Jay WadleyYeah, Trying Harder. Yeah.

1:57Jawad MirYeah, it's, it's... It just kinda brought back a lot of, like, classical music that I have grown up listening.

2:03Jay WadleyYeah.

2:03Jawad MirIt was really well done. I really enjoyed it. Just wanted to sort of say that upfront.

2:08Jay WadleyAh, thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, that one was, like, an interesting, i… interesting challenge and, you know, it comes back a number of times in the, in the show, and is kind of, you know, I... It's, it's a bit, like, sort of Vivaldi influenced, if you will, and, you know, I wanted to kinda use cl… more classical music as sort of a vehicle to carry some of the comedy and lighter moments of the show. And so that one in particular is kind of tracks with, Temple Franklin's sort of transformation from sort of this raggedy, American in, you know, kind of these ragged clothes to something, you know, to his sort of French, self, which, like, you know, he goes through... In episode one, he goes through sort of a wardrobe change with, Lafayette. And so that's the first time you hear it, and it kinda tracks throughout the season as he kind of further assimilates into French culture. And so kinda using that as a lighter element, but also, something that's a bit more ornamented and, you know, f… yeah, that kind of reflects a bit of, like, the French, attire and culture, so...

3:17Jawad MirYeah, no, it was, it was really well done. And, you know, just sort of kinda going into this conversation about the series, Franklin…

3:25Jay WadleyYeah

3:26Jawad Mir... How did you, how did you get involved in it? Was it just, you know, just through some reference? Or you... Yeah, I don't... D… everything works differently in different series and different projects, so just wanted to get an idea.

3:39Jay WadleyOh. Yeah, I mean, you know, I have worked with the, with the music supervisor and the music editor, a c… a couple t… well, I worked with the music supervisor on a couple of different projects, and then the music editor has actually worked out of my studio a couple times on other projects 'cause, you know, my company here, Found Objects Music Productions, you know, we produce other scores for other composers in addition to our own. And then, you know, my business partner is Trevor Grekus, another film and television composer that we've worked together for, you know, 18 years at this point, which is kinda crazy. But yeah, so yeah, I'd heard about the project and the, you know, sort of what it was looking for creatively, and I felt like it was right up my alley. So I talked to my agent and kind of reached out to the music supervisor. I was like, "I really think that this is something that, you know, that I would really love to do." And, you know, when you're in that place and thinking about it, you know... And then they made a decision, and they ended up working... You know, starting out, they were gonna work with another composer, and then for whatever reason, schedule stuff, you know, kinda fell through, and they were on the lo… hunt again.

4:42Jay WadleyAnd so, my name came back up, and so I jumped at the opportunity, was, like, really, you know, yeah, gung ho about it and took a meeting with, Tim Van Patten, the showrunner, and we just, you know, immediately hit it off. He's such a wonderful guy, creative, and, like, a great leader that, you know, is, you know, knows what he wants and, is, yeah, like, not a micromanager in, like, in, like, so many ways. He just, like, let me run with it and, like, responded to it. And, so yeah, it was, it was pretty great. So it was, it was pretty quick by the time I found out that it was open again, and then, and then I jumped onto it, so...

5:23Jawad MirThat's awesome. How much, historically did you know about the story of Franklin and the parts that are covered in the series?

5:33Jay WadleyActually…

5:33Jawad MirWere you very…

5:33Jay WadleyVery little

5:34Jawad Mir... Well with it? Very little? Okay.

5:35Jay WadleyNo, very little of the history of him, his time in France. You know, I had not read the book that the show is based on. But yeah, so it was kind of a whole, a whole historical education for myself about that time because... And I think that's kind of what's interesting about that, about the show as well is that, you know, it's, it's, maybe lesser known facts around his involvement in, you know, the Revolutionary War and getting the French, to, you know, support, our efforts. So I think that was... You know, people think of him more for his inventions or, you know, other things that he did here in the States, but, like, I think that…

6:16Jawad MirYeah

6:17Jay WadleyYou know, that was a sort of lesser known, sort of story to tell. So I think that's also why it's so interesting.

6:24Jawad MirYeah, that's something I'm learning too. I remember I took, American history in grade nine or 10…

6:30Jay WadleyYeah

6:30Jawad Mir... And I honestly don't remember much, but I mean, I remember the basics, you know, the war and everything. But one thing I've always sort of wondered based on the conversation I have with kids and what you see on t… on TV or online…

6:47Jay WadleyYeah

6:47Jawad Mir... Is that history element is kind of fading away. A lot of people don't know how we came to be where we came to be as a society, not just US, Canada

6:59Jay WadleyYeah

6:59Jawad Mir... You know, Nor… North America mainly.

7:02Jay WadleyYeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting, I'm not really, a… around, m… many people with kids. I don't, I don't, like, hear about what's kind of being taught in schools.

7:15Jawad MirYeah.

7:15Jay WadleyLike, I don't have kids myself and I'm not, you know, you know... So… someday, but, so I don't really know what, like curricu… curriculum is like. But, you know, I mean as it gets further and further away, I think it's harder to probably latch onto and understand sort of the transformations that, you know, that we've gone through over the past couple hundred years, so.

7:35Jawad MirI wasn't referring to the kids. I even talking about you and I in general.

7:39Jay WadleyOh.

7:40Jawad MirRight?

7:40Jay WadleyOh, yeah.

7:41Jawad MirI mean, I mean, I didn't know a lot of things that are happening in this series. I mean, you mentioned you didn't. I just wonder, i… is it something that we... I feel it's something that we should be reminded all the time about history, you know?

7:55Jay WadleyYeah.

7:55Jawad MirEven if it was bad history or good history or whatever it was.

7:58Jay WadleyYeah.

7:58Jawad MirAnd I think that's been sort of missing. But anyways, I mean, I'm just kinda going off a tangent here.... What was the most... And that's what this pod… happens on this podcast. It's just a random,... Conversation. But what was the most challenging part, in your career? It doesn't have to be Franklin. Whether it was overcoming an obstacle, a rejection, a failure. What has been something that has sort of defined you over the years to overcome all the hurdles?

8:32Jay WadleyI think it really more than anything, it's like a mindset thing, because it just takes a really long time, to establish a career and to, you know, p… invest the time and energy and resources and, you know, sacrifice a lot, in order to, get to a place where you've been doing it for long enough, you have the reputation, you have the connections, you have the skill sets, and all of those things to really be doing it at the level, you know, that you want to get at. You know, I think, like, we have ideas of that, you know, okay, we've, we've, we've studied and we have the composition chops, but like, you know, how do you get from the student level to having a career? And I think that, you know, persistence and the hard work and the long hours and the, you know, all the things to really,.. And the relationship development stuff, you know? A… and, like, not getting discouraged, when you're, you know, five years in and it still isn't quite where you want it to be, and then you're 10 years in and it still isn't quite.

9:37Jay WadleyYou know, you can always be sort of chasing that, you know, that carrot in a way. But I... And I think that's where people get discouraged and, you know, drop out. And so I've, I've kind of seen a little bit of like, you know, obviously you have to know your craft, you have to build, you know, your tools. But you know, you also have to have persistence and i… in a way, a lot of it's seems like a bit of a war of attrition. You know, because, like, people, you know, move on and give up or, like, there... Or go do other things and focus their energies on something else that then, you know, takes them out of the game in the same sort of way. So, you know, I think that, you know, i… if we're speaking, from a career standpoint, I would say that just being able to be comfortable, and f… at peace with where I'm at in my career and continuing to push and continuing to invest, was like the hardest thing to kinda get to feeling good about that and feeling okay about that and still, you know, still putting that energy towards it.

10:46Jawad MirYou know, it's, it's, it's interesting you mentioned that because I do know a lot of people in the industry, like, you know, being a director myself, people do give up and we all get those moments where we do wanna give up, including me.

11:02Jay WadleyYep.

11:02Jawad MirI'm sure you have too, right? There's always those days. But what I've discovered, and I discovered this five years ago, it's probably a very obvious thing to a lot of people, is that instead of when you are having that downtime, and we all have that on a regular basis, it's very interesting if you think about where you were five years ago or 10 years ago, or 15 years ago, or 20 years ago, and where you are today.

11:29Jay WadleyYeah.

11:29Jawad MirThat really flips everything around. Like, holy crap, I've come that far.

11:35Jay WadleyYeah.

11:35Jawad MirRight? And I think that's, that's one of the key things, at least I have discovered that to kinda k… stay in that element. 'Cause fear…

11:43Jay WadleyYeah

11:43Jawad Mir... Fear does crazy things with you, right?

11:45Jay WadleyYeah.

11:45Jawad MirSo it just pulls you back.

11:48Jay WadleyTotally. And there, and there are like different markers and like different markers of success and what that means for each person and what they're looking for. But, you know, and it's, you know, different than other worlds where maybe you see a title increase or you see, you know, some sort of thing that represents that you are further along in your career than maybe another person, you know, i… in a more like, you know, corporate structure or something like that.

12:12Jawad MirYeah.

12:12Jay WadleyYou know what I mean? But like when you think about it, you know, someone who comes out the, out the gate out of… Out of, you know, out of school and does their first short film, they are credited as composer. When John Williams does a Star Wars movie or whatever, he's credited as composer. And so there's no, like, sort of like tangible... Like, there's no, like, title sort of differences of, like, these sort of things. So I don't know, people, like, I think you have to kind of have markers of your own success and what that means to you, in order to kind of, you know, see that growth and then have that perspective as you know, just said. You know, fi… looking five years, back and looking 10 years back, if I to… if I could tell myself, you know, 10 years ago that I'd be doing Franklin, you know what I mean? Like, I would, I would've thought, "You're crazy," you know what I mean? Like, a… a… and, you know, as much as I wanted that, you know, it's like, will that happen? And so, you know, you never know. You never know, and it's like where luck meets, you know, preparation is, you know.

13:14Jawad MirI like that. I like that line, where luck meets preparation.

13:17Jay WadleyYeah. Yeah.

13:18Jawad MirBut I think, you know, one thing king… you sa… you said, comparison is detrimental to anyone's growth.

13:27Jay WadleyYeah.

13:27Jawad MirI mean, that's where I think a lotta people fall, and, you know, not just in our industry, just in anything. Like, you know, you start looking at other people's lives…

13:34Jay WadleyYeah

13:34Jawad Mir... Or their career, and that's when you start, over-assessing yourself and start putting yourself down. So y… y… competition is good, but I don't, you know, comparison is not.

13:44Jay WadleyYeah.

13:44Jawad MirAnd you mentioned John Williams. Which composers have you sort of grown up listening to, or some of your favorites?

13:52Jay WadleyWell, when I w… you know, when I, when I was in, you know, high school and college, I really, I didn't initially intend on getting into,.. You know, I w… I was interested in film work, but it wasn't l… like what I set out to do really. I kinda entered into the music world through, you know, bands, p… punk rock bands. I was producing stuff, writing for my bands. But then I was in choral m… or in choir. I started writing choir music, and then I went strictly, like, very academic, classical composition and had intended to go into the, you know, academic composition world. So I got my, undergrad in classical composition at Oakland City University, and then I went to Yale for grad school. Got my master's and artist diploma in, you know, concert composition, like, you know, modern. And, you know, that was my intent initially. But yeah, like, so I was listening to, like, Bang on a Can, so, like, David Lang. I was listening to John Corigliano. I really liked, you know, his score for Red Violin.

14:52Jay WadleyBut I really enjoyed his symphonies. You know, I was a big Mahler fan, Stravinsky. And, you know, tho… I would say those were some of my favorites. And then, you know, th… then when I started getting into more film stuff, obviously Zimmer was a, was an influence. Like, the Gladiator soundtrack was like, oh.

15:17Jay Wadley'cause that was around, like, when I was, you know, in high school or early college. And, you know, then, you know, more as of late, you know, I r… I was like a, you know, J… John Brian and, Jonny Greenwood and, you know, that stuff. But, like, I have pretty... Oh, I see you have got Gladiator right over here on your right.

15:40Jawad MirYeah. I… it's one of my favorite films. I mean, the music is amazing. I st… I still listen to it every ti… from time to time. It's, it's amazing.

15:49Jay WadleyYeah.

15:50Jawad MirIt's absolutely amazing. Did you ever listen to, I'm sure you have, Vangelis growing up?

15:55Jay WadleyYeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

15:57Jawad MirYeah.

15:58Jay WadleyI w… it wasn't, you know, that wasn't as much my thing as a, as, like, you know, I, for a long time I was really into, like, very, you know, sort of mid… mid-century, mid-20th century, composers. So, like, I really liked…

16:14Jay Wadley... I, Iannis Xenakis and, y… like, Schoenberg and Webern and Berg and,.. Yeah, so, like, yeah, the New Viennese School I kinda was really into, for a while. But, you know, I liked the experiment, like, you know, the m… mid-20th century experimental composers.

16:39Jawad MirYeah.

16:40Jay WadleyAnd then, like, the post-minimalists. I got into Reich, John Adams, P… Philip Glass, you know, and then the post-minimalists, like the Bang on a Can's, the, you know, th… those types of, those types of composers. So I was really steeped in that. Like, I was deep in that world for a long time. Yeah.

16:59Jawad MirDid you, did you... I mean, he's not really a 20th century compos… more like early 20th, late 19. Gustav Holst. Did you ever listen to him?

17:07Jay WadleyYeah.

17:07Jawad MirYeah.

17:07Jay WadleyOf course, yeah.

17:08Jawad MirYeah.

17:08Jay WadleyWhich, like, heavily influenced Williams on his, Star Wars soundtracks and just, like, it's kind, it's kind of, it's kinda wild. You listen to Holst and, like, you could play them…

17:17Jawad MirYeah

17:17Jay Wadley... To people that don't know the d… like, that wouldn't, you know, be able to tell the difference, you know? But, like, you know, it's, like, heavily influenced, but it's, it's, yeah. But obviously he took it and made it his own and did…

17:28Jawad MirOh, yeah

17:28Jay Wadley... Really, so yeah.

17:29Jawad MirThere's, there's a lot of elements, not just the Death Star sequence, but even, Luke Skywalker's theme has a certain number of notes. But also in Gladiator I find, G… Gustav Holst, if you wanna call it album or j… as, was it Jupiter or Mars? Is it Jupiter? The one where he did the…

17:51Jay WadleyOh, Ju… yeah. Yeah. The Planets.

17:53Jawad MirYeah.

17:53Jay WadleyYeah.

17:53Jawad MirPlanets, right, Planets. The, even in Gladiator, the arena sequence, there's a little bit of elements. I… I'm not a music expert…

18:02Jay WadleyYeah

18:02Jawad Mir... But, I mean, I can pick up on things very quickly because I've been listening to soundtracks since early '90s.

18:07Jay WadleyYeah.

18:07Jawad MirYou know, he inspired a lot of artists. I think he inspired a lot of artists, but…

18:12Jay WadleySure

18:12Jawad Mir... Unfortunately a lot of people know about Mozart and Beethoven and, you know, Chaplin and Ben…

18:17Jay WadleyYeah

18:17Jawad Mir... Bunch of others, but not a lot of people know about Gustav Holst.

18:20Jay WadleyYeah

18:20Jawad Mir... Unless, you know, it's people, like, in your, in your world or in the film world.

18:25Jay WadleyTotally. Totally. Yeah. I mean, you know, it... Which is, which is funny because, like, I kind of came into the classical world from the other angle. You know, I did not, I was, when I was in high school or, you know, middle school, high school, college, I was not really, like, a Mozart or Beethoven, you know, fan. It was fine. V… even Vivaldi, it's, like, I've kind of grown my appreciation for those composers later in my life more so than early. But at the time, and then this probably speaks to my punk rock, you know, upbringing and my rebel, and sort of hardcore heart, what, was, like, really seeking out more experimental stuff that were more on the fringes of things that were doing something different, than what I, or at least associated with classical music. You know, so people that were experimenting and doing new things. And so that's what kinda led me into the more, you know, 20th century modernist, composers. And that's how I entered into concert music.

19:25Jawad MirYeah.

19:25Jay WadleyIt's, like, being inspired by that, you know?

19:28Jawad MirBut it's interesting how that is in Franklin. Like, all that stuff…

19:34Jay WadleyYeah

19:34Jawad Mir... That you sort of... You know, it, that sh… clearly is in Franklin, the Apple TV+ series. And, while we're on, you know, talking about that, how... So every composer works differently, right? Like, you know, you have, on a feature film, you have a film that's pretty much completed…

19:52Jay WadleyYeah

19:52Jawad Mir... Or a rough cut, and the composer comes in and does his thing. Like, for example, have you seen Slumdog Millionaire?

19:59Jay WadleyYeah, of course. Yeah.

20:00Jawad MirSo A.R. Rahman, right?

20:02Jay WadleyYeah.

20:02Jawad MirHe... I read somewhere that he actually composed that soundtrack in two weeks, which is absolutely insane.

20:10Jay WadleyWow.

20:10Jawad MirIn your, in this production on Franklin, you know, being a series…

20:15Jay WadleyYeah

20:15Jawad Mir... And producing a, an hour-long soundtrack, what, where did you come in terms of re… from standpoint of research into interacting with the team, you know, the showrunner, as well as then obviously during post with the editor and sound mixing and all that stuff?

20:35Jay WadleyYeah. Yeah. I got brought in, you know, they were already pretty far along on their edits, like network cuts. So, you know, I was able to step into the project with some, you know, pretty well-formed, vis… visuals and pacing and all that stuff. So I had a lot of information to be able to absorb and react to. So that was great. And I, and I like to work that way. You know, sometimes when I'm just working off a script and don't really have a sense for pacing or whatever, I, like, it's, I can, I can get into developing themes and whatnot, but I can't really start to dial in tone and dial in, you know, how I want the instrumentation to, you know, be recorded and produced and all of those types of things that I think are really important to, you know, the choices of a composer. And, you know, so, yeah, they already had most of the edits together. Or not most of them, but a fair amount where I could, you know, start to just dive into actual scenes. And so yeah, I watched down everything that they had a lot of discussions with the showrunner, and then I really kinda just started from the top.

21:38Jay WadleyAnd I think I started in, like, April. So it was about six months, I think, from, the time I started, or maybe less. Like, m… March or April is when I started, and I finished around September. And, wrote four and a half hours of orchestral music, so it was a lot, and very fast.

22:00Jawad MirWow.

22:01Jay WadleyYeah. So, you know, I just kinda started from the first cue, really. Like, which I felt like, you know, the, I thought the pilot did a really good job of setting up a lot of different themes, and characters that I could really work with. So I just kinda started episode one, cue one, here we go. Like, you know, Franklin arrives on the shores of France. So, there was a lot of that, just g… trying to find the production style there. Some of, like, Franklin's theme as he arrives and turns around and is revealed, we get his, the first statement of his main theme in the French horn. And, you know, so then I kinda just worked from front to back because there wasn't, like, a lot of time. And I think in some ways that's a gift, because, you know, sometimes if there's too much time, then you kind of lose, you lose that sort of, I don't know, there's something there when you're like, "I don't have too much time to second-guess my choices."

23:02Jawad MirYeah.

23:02Jay WadleyI, like, I go with my gut, I know what feels good, and I'm reacting to, and I just go all in. And so that's kind of how I did it. And, like, I brought in, I have a violinist and a cellist that I work with very regularly that I bring into my studios when I'm working, and I literally just write stuff on the fly and hand it to them, and then they start playing it, and I work… workshop through my themes and through my techniques and things like that, and record it all and then reuse it. And so yeah. And then thankfully, on this project as well, they had, you know, the sort of resources to, go and record the whole thing live with orchestra. So I did everything live, four and a half hours, of music, and, like, pretty much, like, in two episode blocks at a time. So I would do, did episode one and two in a two-day recording session, three and four in a two-day recording session, and so on through eight. So it's pretty wild. Pretty wild.

23:57Jawad MirThat's, that's awesome. That's really awesome. And you know, it's... So when you're… It's, it's so true what you said about when you have too much time to think… Then you, I think the doubt kind of kicks in, like, "Should I do this or should I do that?" Right?

24:16Jay WadleyYeah.

24:17Jawad MirBut when you have very less time, the gut kind of kicks in, and majority of the time, if not all the time, the gut is always right. You know, with that, with that sort of in, i… i… in context, so people who write books, right? Like they, or they have ideas and they start figuring out…

24:34Jay WadleyYeah

24:34Jawad Mir... In their head what the dialogue would be, or they start writing, right?

24:37Jay WadleyYeah.

24:37Jawad MirSame thing with directing, same thing with editing. With music, right? So even if you have a, if you've seen a frame or if you're watching a frame, like for example, the opening of episode one or the first 30 minutes of episode one, like how... T… tell me the process, not just in Franklin or anything that you do, how does that sort of come into, you know, your mind and then sort of comes out with your, you know, you're playing a piano or a keyboard or... You understand my question, right? I mean, I'm just trying to figure out.

25:10Jay WadleyYeah. Totally. Totally. Like, how do you go from the idea in your head…

25:13Jawad MirYeah

25:13Jay Wadley... And responding to something, to something that exists outside of yourself that you can present to someone. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I mean, it, that, and that's kind of the, I feel like part of the magic of being a creative person. It's like you find your own process and way into, you know, translating those internal, thoughts and approaches and, you know, with enough experience you just learn how to, you know, find your different modes. But I typically, I do work at the piano. You know, but I also, on something like this, I did, you know, ver… like start at the keyboard, but with, you know, full orchestral sounds. You know, I've got, I've got, you know, the full orchestra at my disposal essentially in, you know, in my computer. And can produce at a high level. So I was going straight to full orchestra in a way. And I built, I built like a very robust template in order, you know, to have all of my cues or all my instruments there, for all my cues so I could print them and like not...

26:15Jay WadleyYou know, the biggest thing is, I think, removing hurdles between however you can find, I think there's no right process. However you can find that you remove as many hurdles from your sort of intuitive reaction to something, to actually getting something down, even if it's a sketch. Like, if you can figure that out, then you're in great shape, you know? 'Cause you can always take whatever you have down and refine it and expand upon it. But it's like finding yourself in those creative spaces to be able to remove whatever hurdle you have from actually like just getting something down. Just like write it down or produce it or like work it out at the piano. And not over, like, not judging yourself or second-guessing yourself before it's necessary. You know what I mean?

27:00Jawad MirYeah.

27:01Jay WadleySo.

27:02Jawad MirYou know, it's, it's, it's interesting, you know, when you have a scene, sometimes music is not necessary in a scene. Like, it's just the silence of the, you know, the scene, whether it's between, there's tension being built or there's sometimes not even a dialogue between two people, they just communicate through eyes, right?

27:21Jay WadleyYeah.

27:21Jawad MirAnd but music also is very important. So music is such a powerful thing that a tool or composition of any sort, that it really evokes people's emotions to, you know, com… sometimes, you know, if you listen to like heavy metal, like, you know, that can evoke rage and anger, right? I mean…

27:42Jay WadleyYeah

27:43Jawad Mir... Everybody's different. But then there is, you know, something that makes you emotional, something that makes you happy, sad. What in your life, whether it's listening to someone else's work or whether it's watching something, even in Franklin, that evoked a certain emotion and that just sort of brought out something really quickly, whether it's lis… I guess the question is for both listening to someone else and also when you are doing your own work.

28:12Jay WadleyLike how do I find inspiration from those things?

28:14Jawad MirYeah.

28:16Jay WadleyYeah. I mean, I tend to, when I, when I get started on a new project, I tend to kind of mood board, a bit. And do in… pretty intentional listening, to scores, to classical music, to, you know, anything that seems in some way related to a p… a sound palette that I would wanna play with. Whether that be from just a production standpoint or instrumentation standpoint or compositional standpoint. Like, you know, there's all those elements to kind of be considered, i… in how you approach a score. So, you know, I typically, yeah, make like a big playlist based on, you know, my initial reaction and thoughts and do some listening there to just kind of like get myself in the brain space. And then it's, it's, from there it's more just like synthesizing all of those various references into something that then feels good. But I try not to also be too beholden to that, where it becomes like a limiting thing, where if something, if something is inspiring and I start moving, in a different direction, I allow myself to go there.

29:24Jay WadleyYou know, because like sometimes that's some of the most interesting things, is like something that's a little bit to the left or to the right of where I actually initially started out, so.

29:34Jawad MirRight. And to sort of add to that question, so let me talk about Gladiator for a second, since you mentioned…

29:40Jay WadleyYeah

29:40Jawad Mir... It's one of your... You know, the track Now We Are Free in the end.

29:44Jay WadleyYeah.

29:45Jawad MirRight? That Lisa Gerrard's vocals and Hans Zimmer's composition, even though that's an emotional scene, but it's like, you know, the character breaks free. And no matter how many times you listen to that track, it evokes a certain emotion. Sometimes it's, it relaxes you, sometimes it makes you, depending on the mood that you're in your life…

30:06Jay WadleyAbsolutely

30:06Jawad Mir... Where you are in your stage, right? Has there been, has there been a track or is there a track that you listen to a lot of times because it evokes that emotion, That makes you just feel good, whether it's a happy emotion or sad emotion. Even sad emotions make you feel good, right?

30:24Jay WadleyTotally.

30:24Jawad MirSo, has there, is there anything like that you listen to or you have…

30:28Jay WadleyYeah

30:28Jawad Mir... In the past?

30:29Jay WadleyYeah. I mean, there's a... Yeah, I would say there's, there's a l… a lot there. And, like, I think, you know, that's what good art does as well. Like, you know, like art with a... If you say art with a capital A in a way, you know, it's, it evokes. Like, it... Like, you bring as much to it as it brings to you know? And so it will change its, you know, it… its meaning for you as you are wherever you are in your life, and you will perceive it and other people will perceive it in a different way and have different meaning to it. So I think that's, like, a beautiful thing about it. But, yeah, I mean, there's definitely, you know, a number of pieces probably from Corigliano or Arvo Pärt, that kind of, have that for me. But also, you know, I... One piece, two pieces I return to a lot, are Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, and Mahler's First Symphony. For whatever reason, they always, like...

31:30Jay WadleyYeah, there's something there for it, for me. And you know, I didn't recognize it until now, but, like... Or till recently when I w… watched Maestro, actually the rehearsal scene from, when they were rehearsing the finale to Candide

31:49Jay Wadley... The, Make Our Garden Grow. That one, I'd sang that in college, and that just, like, brought me to tears, and, like, I've revisited that track, you know, you know, that final piece from the, from the opera, like, a bunch of times ever since because it has such a specific feeling for me that's, like, so inspiring and beautiful and yeah, interesting. Yeah.

32:16Jawad MirYou know, it's, it's, it's interesting you mention that it depends what you're listening to how it's affecting you, but because it's coming from both sides, right? And then going…

32:25Jay WadleyYeah

32:25Jawad Mir... To what you just mentioned about Maestro, sometimes I wonder i… even if you watch, like, a mov… Like, I just saw the trailer of this new documentary that's coming out on Celine Dion, right?

32:36Jay WadleyOh, yeah.

32:37Jawad MirIt's called, like…

32:37Jay WadleyI did too.

32:38Jawad MirYeah.

32:39Jay WadleyI literally just watched it.

32:40Jawad MirI mean, literally when it started, right? Like, literally when it started. I didn't listen to Celine Dion growing up, but everybody knows about Celine Dion because mainly probably from Titanic, unless you're a fan.

32:51Jay WadleyYeah.

32:51Jawad MirYou know, you listened to her growing up. And that just did something that I wondered after watching the trailer, why did I get so involved with Celine Dion's movie trailer? Like, I don't even know anything about her music other than four or five songs, right?

33:06Jay WadleyYeah.

33:06Jawad MirLike, My Heart Will Go On or Never Give Up…

33:09Jay WadleyYeah

33:09Jawad Mir... Or that, you know, all that stuff.

33:11Jay WadleyYeah.

33:11Jawad MirAnd it's an interesting psychological thing that, are you remembering your childhood and that, or your younger years, not necessarily childhood…

33:20Jay WadleyYeah

33:20Jawad Mir... And that's why it evokes a certain emotion?

33:22Jay WadleyYeah.

33:22Jawad MirAnd is it the same way with Maestro, like, the composition that you were talking about? Is it a certain moment in life that…

33:29Jay WadleyYeah

33:29Jawad Mir... Comes back?

33:30Jay WadleyAbsolutely. Yeah. It... And it takes me back to that experience and something that I actually, you know, miss, about my musical life right now, which is singing, 'cause I was a vocalist. And it, and so that's my primary instrument. I studied vocal performance in college in addition to music composition. And yeah, so I sang in choirs, I sang opera, I sang music theater, and I don't sing very much anymore. And it's such a, specific, musical instrument because it's the only one that exists in the body, obviously, and it's such a human experience to sing and, you know, for... You know, I think we've evolved just to be moved by the human voice in that way. And so I was so moved at that point, I was like, "Man, I think I might have to start singing again." You know? Because it reminds me of those times being in choir, being there, being, participating with all these other people.

34:31Jay WadleyIt's a community thing. And then it's also,.. Yeah, it's, it's, it's just, it's moving when you are a part of that and you hear your own voice distinctly, but you hear it in context also with all these other voices around you. It's kind of, it's spiritual. I don't know what else to say, you know, about it.

34:50Jawad MirI... Yeah, I think you're bang on because even in that trailer, the Celine Dion one that I just saw, there was a line that she says. I don't remember the exact line, but it was more about, like, she does it for the fans because she misses them as much as she miss… misses herself singing. And it's not in vanity or anything.

35:07Jay WadleyYeah.

35:07Jawad MirIt's just a community thing, right? It's just, like, they're part of her community. Why did you give up singing or was it life happened or...?

35:17Jay WadleyWell, it's just, I just kinda made a choice, I think, in college, that, you know, I had been composing for a couple years at that point and, you know, I still studied vocal performance in college, and I still, sang a bit in grad school. But I just, like, I was pursuing composition and really, you know, v… from a both lifestyle standpoint, like, I didn't really see the end goal of where I would head with, like, singing necessarily, and I just was more ins… inspired by cr… creating myself. For whatever reason, I could just, like, dive into, composing and lose myself, you know, in it. And I really love the fact that, like, you know, I create and I put something out in the world that exists, that I can kind of point to and like, "That thing." You know what I mean? Which... But I love, you know, I think the act of live performance is a beautiful thing too because it's, it's a moment that you only experience in that moment.

36:25Jay WadleyYou know? Even if you record it's just different, you know? So live performance is beautiful in that way. But for whatever reason, I just gravitated more towards the composition thing. But I think what I miss most about it is those sort of beautiful moments of community, those beautiful moments like where you feel part of this, you know, larger thing.

36:48Jawad MirAre you planning to revisit that? Is that something in the works…

36:50Jay WadleyYeah

36:50Jawad Mir... Or you would like to?

36:51Jay WadleyI mean, I, you know, I, on my own, I don't know if I would ever go back to, like, performing. But, choir stuff I would be interested in. It's kinda hard 'cause I don't have a lot of time, you know. Like, I'm grateful, very... It's, I'm, I'm busy, which is great. And, so not complaining there, but, i… it's, it's hard to find time for other things that are not, you know, c… central and core to kind of my career and what I'm doing, compositionally. Although, like, I would love to, I would love to get back in it, and there are some community choirs and stuff in New York, that, you know, I've been, I've had friends that have been a part of that,.. I know it would be fun. I just know that I don't have a lot of, a lot of time. I, you know, you have to choose your kind of priorities there. But I hope to revisit it someday, with a little bit more time, so.

37:44Jawad MirW… would you ever do it if a situation came up where you're doing a composition for a series or a film, and there was the requirement for a song?

37:56Jay WadleyYeah. Absolutely.

37:57Jawad MirLike…

37:57Jay WadleyYep. And I've done that. Yeah, I have done that.

37:59Jawad MirOkay.

38:00Jay WadleyLike, especially, like, background things. And, you know, in, you know, when I was doing more advertising work, you know, 'cause, like, my company does, also advertising, you know, composition and music supervision, you know, I was singing, I would sing a lot on those, back in the day. And then, yeah, and then I've sung on a couple scores, like, as background kind of things and more textural, things.

38:24Jawad MirWhich ones?

38:25Jay WadleyI don't wanna say.

38:27Jawad MirOh, okay. You can't say. I have, I have to Google it now.

38:35Jay WadleyYeah.

38:36Jawad MirThat's all good.

38:38Jay WadleyYeah

38:38Jawad Mir... What's, what's next for you, Jay?

38:41Jay WadleyI'm, yeah, I'm working on, two series right now. I'm, working on the second season of my show, Lie to Me, or, I mean, Tell Me Lies. I did a show called Lie to Me many years ago as an additional composer, but, Tell Me Lies, is, the second season of that, which is a Hulu show. I'm working on a new Apple series, which is like a psychological thriller, with Billy Crystal. That'll be, that'll be coming out, I don't know when it's coming out, but, yeah, working on that right now. Finishing up a movie with David Mamet, so a new feature for him, and a documentary that I started, like, four years ago that kinda came back, to life. And then, yeah, I've got a couple other features, coming up. My good friend Shal, his, first feature, which is, like, a horror, feature that'll be on…

39:33Jay Wadley.. Hulu. And, yeah, a number, a number of other ones that, you know, like, are not as solid, but it looks like that's where I'm, I'm headed for the year, so.

39:44Jawad MirI think of all the ones that you mentioned, the one that sort of grabbed my attention was the word Billy Crystal and psychological thriller together.

39:51Jay WadleyOh, yes.

39:52Jawad MirI mean, you don't…

39:52Jay WadleyAbsolutely

39:53Jawad Mir... You don't see tho… you don't see those or hear those two words together, in the name, in that genre together, so that would be interesting. Eventually I'd love to talk to you more about, you know, when that comes out and other stuff that you're working on.

40:04Jay WadleyYeah.

40:04Jawad MirThat'd be really awesome. Just, one last thing I would love to ask you. What's one thing that you would tell yourself, your younger self?

40:16Jay WadleyHm. One thing I would tell my younger self.

40:21Jawad MirThat you wish you had at the time. It's not about regrets, but sometimes we always think about, you know, if…

40:27Jay WadleyYeah

40:27Jawad Mir... If I was this way or if I was that way.

40:30Jay WadleyYeah. Is, I would say, you know, like, just to have a little bit more encouraging. It would just be like, you know, "Keep going and don't listen to the people that, you know, don't, don't know where you're headed. Like, you've got it, so." You know, it's, it's just like, "Keep your head down and keep going. Like, you're, you're, you're doing good." That's pretty much it, to be honest. Like, 'cause, you know, I'm, I'm from Oklahoma, and, you know, right outside Oklahoma City. I, there were no other people, that, were composing in my class or hometown or, you know, no one, no one was doing what I was doing. And, it, like... Then w… when I went to college, I was one of two composers of my year, and, you know, like, it, the, I, there were no examples around me or anywhere. And, like, there were a lot…

41:23Jawad MirYeah

41:23Jay Wadley... Of people that were like, "What are you doing?" and, "How are you gonna make a living?" and, "How are you gonna do this?" and, "How are you gonna do that?" You know what I mean? Like, and th… it's just because they don't s… there's no way for them to see it. They don't understand how that goes, and I didn't either, but I did have passion for it, and I did have faith that some… I could make something work out of it. And even if that was, like, a more straight and narrow academic route, I'd be writing music, and I'd be pretty happy with that, and I'd be happy teaching, you know what I mean? So.

41:52Jawad MirYeah.

41:53Jay WadleyYou know, just to have that encouragement that there's opportunity there if I believe in myself and believe in what I lo… like, you know, and love it and, like, give it the attention it needs, so.

42:04Jawad MirIt's, it is absolutely so true, and sadly it's true even today. Because, you know, obviously things have changed because of YouTube and all that stuff. People understand things a little bit more, but it still needs to go a far way. The elem… the idea of having a career in entertainment and arts is not appealing to an average person, as opposed to being a doctor or being an engineer or b… being a lawyer.

42:34Jay WadleyYeah.

42:34Jawad MirBut, you know, one thing you said, and I sort of wanna wrap it up with that is, you know, keep your head down, keep going. I took, when I took grade nine math in summer school after I didn't do so well in the regular school, I had this teacher named Mrs. Walters. That's the only thing I remember she ever taught us to this day because it applies to life.

42:57Jay WadleyYeah.

42:57Jawad MirShe was teaching us about brackets, like how to… ... How to multiply around brackets, right?

43:02Jay WadleyYeah.

43:02Jawad MirAnd she said, and I don't wanna do her impression…... But I, yeah, I can really do a great impression of her. She said, "Think of it as a horse wearing a fly mask," right? And you just focus on the brackets and that's it. And that's life too. It's like you just kinda close your vision…

43:21Jay WadleyYep

43:21Jawad Mir... And, you know f… and just keep at it, because there is gonna be ridiculous amount of distractions and naysayers, and not because they have ill intentions, just because they don't know themselves.

43:31Jay WadleyYeah. Yeah. For sure, for sure.

43:34Jawad MirAwesome. Thank you so much, Jay, for your time.

43:36Jay WadleyYeah.

43:36Jawad MirIt was really lovely chatting with you.

43:38Jay WadleyYeah. Such a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Yeah. This was great.

43:42Jawad MirLooking forward to chatting again. Good luck with everything.

43:44Jay WadleyYeah. Do it again soon. All right. Thanks so much.

43:46Jawad MirTake care. Bye.