'The Test, Season 3', Directors, Sheldon Wynne & Adrian Brown

0:00Guest 2Usman Khawaja's story in the, in the first episode of series three, the time that he spends with his family in that little moment when he takes his daughter up to the press conference, for me is just... There's a couple of kind of beats in there which I think get me every single time.

0:16Guest 1You know, some days there might be eight hours of footage that really didn't dig up anything, but there was a 13-second bit…... That spoke volumes that you go, "Oh, that's..." Those eight words or that strange look, I still remember. There's, there's moments throughout the series that I go, "Oh, that says something."

0:33Guest 2Yeah, I think it was just that case of, oh, you know, this is amazing access.

0:40Jawad MirAnd there is this image of Australia as being ruthless. And then when that controversy happened with, Steve Smith and David Warner, image that people have of Australia being ruthless was completely turned upside down with your series, at least for me. Thank you so much, guys, for tuning in. I really appreciate it. Just before we start, I just wanna say, being a cricket fan for as long as I can remember and being in the world of storytelling and filmmaking, I've always wanted to see something done with cricket in terms of storytelling. And there was one series that came out, which I never saw, and I probably will never see, on the, IPL Mumbai Indians on Netflix, where they followed the team, which I'd saw the preview and it didn't look very authentic to me.

1:44Jawad MirAt least that was my judgment. But when I saw the trailer of the first season of The Test, I was... Because, you know, following all the stories, the controversies, and everything, I was like, "I need to see this." And I kid you not, I've seen the first two season in back to back, which is really rare for me, and I just saw the third season on my flight to, Florida and back, and I finished it. And amazing work. Totally love it. Not just from as a cricket fan, but storytelling-wise, amazing stuff.

2:16Guest 2Thank you, Marc.

2:17Guest 1It's lovely.

2:17Guest 2Thank you.

2:18Guest 1Thank you. Kind words. Thank you.

2:21Jawad MirHow did the journey start on The Test, just initially? Because to tell somebody, a producer or, you know, likes of Netflix or Amazon that we wanna do something on cricket, you know, how was that journey to kind of get going and get it off the ground?

2:40Guest 1Wow. It's funny because we always,.. I think there's a photo I've got from a, an original planning board that we can talk about in a moment. But I think, you know, there was probably ground broken with other sporting features or sporting documentaries. There was sort of that archival type, you know, of sporting tales that had been told. But then the world moved into, I guess, in that sense of embedding crews and seeing where stories develop. And Amazon have done it with the All or Nothing series with a couple of sporting teams. And I think there was an opportunity for cricket. Certainly Cricket Australia saw it, the opportunity. Richard Ostroff, I think off the back of Cape Town, that there was, A, an opportunity for a new era of the Australian team that was about to happen, and maybe there was a chance to do something a little bit different with sort of connecting with fans. And at that point, the Australian team was always, a little bit off limits or any cricket team, inside the rooms, inside the sheds. And I think at that point there was possibly a change in dynamic, certainly when Justin Langer came on board, that, hey, maybe we could try.

3:48Guest 1Maybe we could just ask the question. And in early days it probably was as simple as, "Hey, how would we do this?" Sheldon and I had worked on a sort of a documentary, well, or it was a documentary that was put together around an Australian rules football club called the Western Bulldogs, and, it w… it won an award and then as part of that, we were asked questions about, "Hey, how did you do that? How would we do that with the Australian team?" And that was just a small embedded crew. Basically a camera operator who ran audio at the same time. And it's like, "Hey, here's how we did that. This is possibly how we could do it with the Australian cricket team." And then it really started early days as a bit of a... Not to say trial, but, hey, let's see. Can we, can we at least get in the door? And if we're not a problem and you don't notice us after four weeks, can we keep going? And that was the start of it, I think. Because if maybe we had have gone in two weeks and things weren't going well, I think we would've been straight back out the door and may not never have seen the light of the day.

4:48Guest 1But the early days was just getting in the door. And then from that, Sheldon and I think... I remember seeing the first couple of frames of just being inside a cricket dressing room because it was uncharted territory. Just seeing, you know, batsmen pad up or seeing Aaron Finch. I remember seeing Aaron Finch walk back in the door, after being dismissed in the UK, and always thinking, we're, we're in a broadcast. You watch a cricket broadcast and they cut away as soon as a batsman's dismissed, the next batter's at the, at the wicket. And it's like, oh, this is the first time I saw the moment back into the dressing room, and you got to keep following. I was like, "That's really different." And so from that point, I think we just both knew that we had something to work with. And then, and then we just developed it from there. Shel, I don't know your sort of early recollections from that point on.

5:40Guest 2Yeah, I think it was just that case of, oh, you know, this is amazing access. But I actually think that with that first series of The Test especially, if you took out the fact that they're a cricket team and you just looked at an organization who had, been in a scandalous situation that had removed two of their highest performers… And a new leader had come into that process as well as a secondary leader, and I mean Tim Paine in that sense as the captain, that is a story worth telling, and it just happens to be about cricket, I think. So I thought that was the fascinating thing about the start of this process, was that I think it is a, it is a story that is absolutely worthwhile telling and it just happens to be that it's about cricket.

6:39Jawad MirRight. And I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this is just my assumption. So before I make that assumption, so Cricket Australia has been dominant from 1999, right? I don't know how much you guys follow cricket in terms of the history of the cricket team, but, in 1999 there's a famous game of Australia and South Africa where the game was tied and they got to the finals and they played Pakistan, what, which is I'm originally from, and they destroyed Pakistan. And since then they have won five out of the seven World Cups, right? Like, I think that's number is probably correct if I'm not mistaken. And there is this image of Australia as being ruthless, right, at least in cricket. And then when that controversy happened with, Steve Smith and David Warner, and I don't know if your timing was perfect because that image that people have of Australia being ruthless was completely turned upside down with your series, at least for me, where they were...

7:45Jawad MirWe all know everybody is different, you know, with their families and indoors be… but we all have to see it. Like, I began to admire Australian cricket players because of your series. Not that I had any animosity against them, but it was... They were so humanized, which is the whole point of the series, right? And that was just incredible to me, like how even the season three, like story of Pat Cummins and his family and Usman Khawaja, and just humanizing those elements really makes a huge difference.

8:19Guest 2Yeah. I certainly think that, I think that the first series especially showed a team that was vulnerable. And that was not only off the field, but, I actually think within the, within the trainings, within the preparation, within the game days, we saw how vulnerable they were. And I think it instantly kind of from what w… we'd known of the team for the last 15 years had just kind of flipped it on its head really quickly. And, may... I think, I, like Ade, I think you did a lot of the cutting in that first edit, and I think that it just came together in a way that people were willing to go on the ride with these people really quickly.

9:05Guest 1I think that was that part. Like struggle's a point because it does humanize. Everyone can relate to the struggle of life, whatever you're going through, that, you know, success is always this thing that we see in sporting teams and... 'Cause success is great when you win, but it's doesn't make always for the most compelling story because it's somewhat unrelatable because they still are then great sporting athletes and go, "Well, I can't attain to that. I can't relate to that." But we can all relate to struggle and just when things are hard and when you've gotta work against things. So I think certainly at that point that allowed us, and certainly in that first series, it always gave us this undercurrent of a narrative to fall back to that no matter what... Everyone was like, "Oh, you want them to win. For a sporting documentary, they've gotta win the World Test Championship or the World Cup." Well, not always. In our story, we didn't have to because our story was about earning respect and earning trust and rebuilding humility, and that was something that we could always go no matter what, we can just fall back to that storyline. What does it mean in the bigger picture?

10:06Guest 1And then at the end of it all it's, it's... And we discovered that as we were sort of wrapping up that end of that first series. I remember thinking, "Oh, this is flat," that, you know, we didn't, we didn't win. It's 2-2 at the Ashes. But it's like no, the story's bigger than this. It's about have we earned respect back? And so we, you know, we were fortunate, I think, always to have that narrative underpinning that first series.

10:30Jawad MirYeah. A… a… and similar to, I was talking... I don't know if you guys have seen the Apple series on Messi's World Cup. If you haven't, I highly recommend. It's a four-part. I was talking to e… executive producers, of them, and it was like I asked them the same question, like, "Were you guys following them or were you follow… you guys following like five s… different teams and then you sort of just picked Argentina because..." But that was the team that they were following and they just happened to win the World Cup. And you know? And, it's just amazing how those things work. But I do think the storytelling, like you said, is way more powerful. Like the un… you know, coming from nowhere and just achieve, going against odds as individuals as well as players. And I found the evolution of cricketers during the interviews that you guys did, not that they were not comfortable in the first series, but you could see the progression of how comfortable they became with you guys because of having spent time with you guys, because, like, you guys kind of became part of the dressing room, right?

11:31Jawad MirAnd they trust you. So that was incredible to see. Going to my next point, what kind of crew you guys had and how much archival footage did you use? I mean, I could make a guess, but I s… wanted you to sort of talk about it, both of you guys. Number of cameras and, you know, access, ground and dressing room of course and everything.

11:51Guest 1Yeah. We would have an embedded crew that would travel with the team on tour, and they would film, you know, training, team meetings, match days inside the dressing rooms. And then outside of that we would add for most test matches or most matches, an independent, you know, iso crew we would call it or cinematic camera that would, that would not be embedded, but we would look to, I guess, capture that perspective from, you know… You know, one step away from the traditional broadcast, you know, that would be able to follow the story, that would be going, okay... A… and our basic directive was if you can tell the story of this match only using pictures, how could we, how could we capture that?

12:35Guest 1You know? And that would then make... Just making sure scoreboard cutaways, crowds you see in series through, making sure we've got enough coverage of the, you know, the Lords, the members at Lords. And we've gotta capture and, you know, try and tell every cricket ground's, you know, architecture and set the scene of every... Well, you know, whether we're in London, whether we're, you know, playing at the Gabba in Brisbane or whatever else. W… wherever we're traveling, we need to try and capture that spirit or essence of the country, the city, the ground that we're going to. So we'd have... We would have that, and then we'd also have the broadcast itself to work with because then we, you know, we would spin through, you know, every second broadcast just looking for that one moment of commentary that would go, oh, that helps inform the next interview or the next moment to push our narrative along. So they were probably the three sources we'd have. Going in, we thought we'd be tapping further back into older archive. You know, tapping back into Australia's sort of rich history of cricket, of using, you know, past years.

13:40Guest 1But we found we really didn't need to at all because, you know, as this story developed, it was like, oh, the story's right here in these current players and looking through these little moments. So it... I think a lot of the time taken in certainly in post-production was just making sure every frame of every footage was found. And, you know, some days there might be eight hours of footage that really didn't dig up anything, but there was a 13-second bit…... That spoke volumes that you go, "Oh, that's... Those eight words or that strange look" I still remember there's, there's moments throughout the series that I go, "Oh, that says something." There's a shot in, I think it is in series one, where Marnus, and it's a poor focus, where he's about three, four, you know, seats down and he looks over at Steve Smith and he's just sort of, you know, Marnus is the understudy, and he sort of looks across at Steve, and you go, that shot says so much. And, okay, bin that away. That's gonna be something else. So all of those moments, and I think it's just the constant one, it's the constant filming to roll, but it's that constant search to go everything could be value… valuable.

14:49Guest 1Because something that you capture on day one of the shoot, at the time, context changes, it may not be anything. But then who's to say, you know, some player's gonna make their debut and that chat on training day one of the tour suddenly becomes, takes on a greater significance which you could never have predicted.

15:08Jawad MirRight. So true. Sheldon, were you at the, at the cricket ground at the end of the test in Cedar Street? No.

15:16Guest 2No. We just had our crew there on the ground, and, Adi and I were just in dialogue with them throughout the, throughout the process, but unfortunately not there. And that's a really important point for us because it's about, trying to be as kind of low impact as possible, and that's how we create our intimacy.

15:34Jawad MirRight. And, I'll come back to you in a second, Sheldon. But Adrian, were you there at all or no your… yourself?

15:40Guest 1I only attended for this series, I was over there for day one of Lords.

15:45Jawad MirOkay, so…

15:45Guest 1I was there for day one.

15:47Jawad MirSo you weren't there when the whole Jonny Bairstow thing happened? Okay. 'Cause I was just... I mean, I was watch… I remember I didn't really follow Ashes like, you know, watching the full game when it happened, like, you know, you just watch the recap. And when I was... I totally forgot about how ugly it got, and I was just kinda curious if you guys were there physically, what kind of... Like, it got really bad. It got really bad, right? So that was just my question, which is fine. But did your crew tell you anything about that experience, being there among so many English fans?

16:21Guest 1I think there's one…

16:22Guest 2No.

16:23Guest 1Oh, you go, Shel.

16:24Guest 2Yeah, I was gonna say no, not really. It's funny how, you get so,.. What's the word? Kind of like... And especially w… when you've got a crew that's on the other side of the world, you get so focused on, like, okay, so how do we u… like, w… what are we doing about this and what are we looking at next, et cetera. You look at that period of time and it's a really f… funny little scenario there, and I think it reflects a little bit in the doco without necessarily being said. But the turnaround time was so quick after that, and you've had this amazing moment that's gonna be remembered in Ashes history certainly for the next 20 years. And yet the turnaround between them and between that moment and the next match was three days. And so we were having dialogue not only about, oh, you know, let's keep our eye on just how much this blows up, but also it looks like Todd Murphy will have to replace Nathan Lyon because he, we lost him.

17:26Guest 2So let's keep a close eye on Todd Murphy. And then it was also, oh, Cameron Green's injured, we'd better kind of keep an eye on him as well. So the conversations are kind of actually a bit sterile i… in terms of, you know, it's not, "Oh, tell us about, you know, like, what was the feeling like?" and all that kind of stuff. It's more like, "What are we doing next? 'Cause we don't have much time."

17:50Jawad MirRight. And I think my question probably should've been phrased better, but I guess I've just answered my own question in my own head, is that English fans... Did, like, you know, being... Was the crew Aus… Australian or was it, were they English crew?

18:03Guest 2Yes.

18:04Jawad MirThe Australian.

18:04Guest 2Australian crew.

18:05Jawad MirSo just being an Australian among that environment, not that it was hostile in any way, but it got pretty bad, right? Like, I mean, there was a lot of footage of it.

18:14Guest 2Yeah.

18:14Jawad MirDid they feel kind of any way intimidated, by anyone? Probably not.

18:22Guest 1No, not quite. Maybe it m… certainly not so Lords, I don't think, because it was so unpredictable. What was really interesting about Lords was that moment with Jonny Bairstow was day five.

18:34Jawad MirRight.

18:34Guest 1You know? So it was almost this point, because I remember going, "Oh, yeah. Well, what coverage have we got and what happened?" And you think about it all happens within sort of two hours in that, you know, the tea break and then during the Stokes innings, where say that happened, had it happened day one, great. We would've had five days of hostile…... Fan reaction to cover to see what happens. And I kind of think in hindsight, it, there's that weird thing with Clancy who was on the ground embedded with the team. He's gotta take his phone away because of, you know, just when you're inside the team, you can't have your phone with you. There's, there's certain, you know…

19:09Jawad MirRight

19:09Guest 1... Regulations and rules. So as what would usually happen, tea time, lunch break or whatever, Clancy breaks whatever he's filming. He's like, "Okay, in the change rooms. I'm gonna go in the team change rooms," 'cause that's where the team is going to go back to. Where am I gonna set up? You would've thought to go, like, for all of us to go, "Well, what's not gonna happen? Well, the Lords members will be fine because they are so respectful of cricket. Nothing's gonna happen in there." You know? So it's that beautiful part of hindsight to go, "Oh, no one else predicted that," you know, which is probably the part that make it so shocking and so amazing because that's what happened. So I always think about that and go, "Oh, yeah. What... No one could've predicted that." If we had have, it would've been great. You know, the last thing, it would've been such a anomaly to sit there and go, "You know where we need our cameras? As we walk through the long room." It's like, "Why? They're gonna be really respectful." It didn't sort of happen to be that case. But then partly also, I think the cricket was so amazing at that last session, 'cause suddenly Ben Stokes is, we're going for it, you know?

20:14Guest 1So…

20:15Jawad MirYeah

20:15Guest 1... It is that moment to go, "Well, what to capture? Do we focus on the cricket or do we focus on the crowd and the fallout of the moment?" And where that was really interesting with Bairstow was it was almost, okay, the game's still to be played, still to be won. Oh, yeah, that was really amazing of what happened that it was almost this follow-on effect to go, "Hey, that was really unusual, wasn't it?" After the cricket had been played and the match had been won. So you sort of balanced that and I think we were even challenged by that in the post of the edit to go, "Hey, that happened. Here's what happened through the long room. We can't now dissect all of that now because there's still a match to be won."

20:55Jawad MirYeah.

20:55Guest 1Let's do that. Okay, how do we get back into that after the fact with spirit of cricket and everything else that happened? So yeah, that was, that was a really interesting, one, for the filming process to capture it, and then two, to go, "Okay, how do we tell this in a, in a way that's reflective of the moment, but, you know, tells all the details hopefully?"

21:15Jawad MirYeah, I mean, you m… you mentioned the Lords incident. I would imagine there'd probably be a less chance of that happening if there was a camera crew right next to the players, right? Because somebody just did it because, I mean, there's cameras there. You don't think about the whole, you know, the security cameras or whatever they are that are in there, and they probably wouldn't have, wouldn't have happened. So maybe that worked out for a benefit for you guys from a storytelling standpoint at least.

21:40Guest 1Maybe. I don't know. I think they were so emotional they might have anyway. I don't know.

21:45Jawad MirSpeaking of emotions, for me the most powerful thing, I don't even know why, was the last frame of the last episode of, Nathan Lyon, right? I'm not gonna reveal much, but for me that was very powerful among anything else. What was it for you guys, whether it was during the filming process or the post-production where something clicked your emotion deeper than anything else?

22:17Guest 2Yeah, I think it's hard to pick kind of one particular moment, but I think for me, Haiti's mentioned this before, so I might be stealing this one from him. But, it's a combination of two things. Usman Khawaja's story in the, in the first seri… first episode of Series 3 is…

22:45Guest 2... About his, first time he's really had success in England, and it's, a story that we weren't aware of, and I don't think anyone was aware of. And Ady did the interview with him, and he tells this amazing story, about his wife and his family and how important they are, and that kind of intertwines with his success there. We had no real intention of m… of probably focusing that much on Uzi's story in that moment in the planning stages, because we'd, we'd kind of done that in Series 2…

23:21Jawad MirRight. Yeah

23:21Guest 2... Quite significantly to…

23:23Jawad MirRight

23:23Guest 2... And we'd done it twice. We'd done it both in his return to form, in Sydney, and then we'd also done the tour of Pakistan and obviously, being, originally Pakistani himself, he's... We're able to kind of explore that story from his perspective, and also having some success there. But he sits down with Ady and he tells this, story, which I remember w… watching it back to… a couple of days later and just being like, "Oh my God, this is amazing." And then, and then added to that, we'd filmed him seeing his family directly after that day's play, and the moment where, that he s… the time that he spends with his family in that little moment and he takes his daughter up to the press conference…

24:13Guest 2... For me is just, there's a couple of kind of beats in there which I think get me every single time. And part of that is that, you know, we've kind of told the whole story up and… Till then, I think we did some good things to kind of make that higher impact. But I also think that, you know, if I think back to the first time watching it, that really, that really hit me.

24:39Guest 1Mine is

24:39Jawad MirHow about you, Andrew? Please.

24:41Guest 1There's the moment captured of Mitch Marsh, and Mitch is such a great character. He's been all through. He's given us such sort of g… great light moments through series one, series two. We've always been intrigued to tell his story. The last Ashes he played in the UK, he, you know, took a fifer and, you know, he told the story in the f… the press conference about, you know, most of Australia hate me. I remember at the time thinking, oh, that's such a, an interesting moment to talk about and a moment of vulnerability to share. But it wasn't the time to tell it in the first series, and we've always been waiting to tell his story. And then finally we get to, and Mitch is such a great talker and such a lovely guy to deal with, and he's so great with his words and so self-deprecating. And, lovely to see, and it's great to see his teammates who have always had this inside knowledge to go, "Hey, that's why we love Mitch." And you can just see how much they love him. And there's a moment when he sits after he makes his 100, you know, we see him go down the lift and he's, and he's just... And I think we finish the episode two with that, and Mitch is just sitting alone on the bench in the rooms.

25:47Guest 1And it's just a quiet moment. It's just Mitch, and it's almost a, for me, at that moment that he's allowing himself to be proud of him, proud of himself. And I go, I just love that shot of going, like, good on you. It's almost as like he's just allowing himself to take that in, and for me, that says so much, and I just love that moment. It's funny what you say about Nathan because when, you know, that moment when we finish…... And it says a lot of probably a lot of Australians, how we were feeling at the time, and when, you know, that's like, yeah, there's no words there. But, you know, I remember thinking, is that, hey, is that a good way just to finish this thing? Like, sometimes you're trying to find the right words or the right grab in a master interview. How do we sum this up? But Nathan's is... Yeah, that's a good end. Like, that says a lot, you know? So.

26:40Jawad MirYeah. No, I… I think it was a fantastic closure because not just from the standpoint of him not saying anything, but just sort of, you know, being expressive, but just the whole arc of how this one guy or one player wants to do something, wants to make a difference, but can't, right? That sense of helplessness, I think a lot of us can relate to, right? Like, you know…

27:06Jawad Mir... In one way or another. And I think that to me was very powerful. But if, yeah, you're, I think even more now that you mention it, the fact that he didn't say anything was even way more powerful than if he had. And that's what I love about the series, and I wish there were other teams, not just in cricket, in every sport that allowed this to happen because it really, it really humanizes all these players, right? And it's such a fun... There's so many beautiful arcs in the entire series, which leads me to the next question. What were some of the arcs that you guys couldn't include that you've intended to include, or wasn't there any?

27:47Guest 1What would they be? I think there's probably…

27:49Guest 2Across the…

27:50Guest 1Well, you go, Shel.

27:51Guest 2I was gonna ask across the three series or just in the latest, in series three?

27:55Jawad MirSo let us, let's, let's, let's talk about, let's talk about the latest and then you can, we can talk about the first…

27:59Guest 2Yeah

28:00Jawad Mir... And the second too.

28:02Guest 2Hey.

28:04Guest 1I'm trying to think what was on the board. Certainly I think David Warner's story. You know, within the UK we sort of just couldn't quite match up. Dave's got a pretty, full on schedule with his, you know, cricket calendar and that's the, that's probably been the other challenge that we've found coming in to go, oh, cricket is, you know, y… when you're part of the national team, you follow the Australian team around, then you flip out in Australia into your state representative teams of where they're going, and then you've got different Premier League T20 leagues around the world, and it's a matter to try and get everyone. I think he would've been…

28:37Jawad MirRight

28:38Guest 1... A really fascinating story to investigate into. Only David Warner's got the David Warner experience. I, and I think that's that really unique part in telling all these individual stories. No one else can tell the Mitch Marsh story but Mitch Marsh, or Travis Head to tell Travis Head. Which I, is why I loved, I love the Todd Murphy story that we told this year because we haven't really been able to tell that one previously in the past. I'm just trying to think who else. You know, Mitchell Starc was someone we were sort of looking at for a while because there's a moment that, you know, Mitch is injured and bites through, you know, some moments to keep bowling, to just give his best for the team, and just the wear and tear of a fast bowler of what they go through to go, "Got to back up again, got to bowl my overs again." That was something that we were looking to tell, but again, didn't get the opportunity to. So there's probably two for me.

29:31Guest 2Well, I think that's a…

29:32Guest 1Okay

29:32Guest 2... A significant one, the Mitchell Starc one, because it happened, across the fourth and then the start of the fifth test, and we really saw it, quite a triumphant day for him as an individual in being able to, kind of withstand this reoccurring injury and still bowl so fantastically. But it's what that funny thing with these kind of, projects where you have to be mindful of the rhythm that you're in terms of where you're at in the story, the s… the overall narrative, and I felt that in that episode, in that, the start of that fifth test, it felt like we had to kind of get moving a little bit and we didn't quite have that time to stop and tell a character story in the way that we're able to with Todd Murphy, Alex Carey, even Marnus Labuschagne. Earlier in the episode, it was almost a bit like, "Oh, no, we've gotta come back to what this whole thing's about," which is, you know, they're, they're striving to be a legacy team.

30:41Jawad MirRight. Yeah. No, and I... L… listen, I, yeah, I think it's just incredible. One of the things that, I don't know, I think it was season two or series two, was it... Correct me if I'm wrong, there's a scene where they can't... Because it was series two. Because of COVID, they couldn't, families couldn't get together in the dressing room. I think that's where the tradition normally is, but they did in the field. And I thought that was such a cool moment, right? There were no crowds, and they're just having fun with their family. Like, that was really cool.

31:13Guest 2And it's something they've continued on since. We actually didn't revisit it in series three, but they do it in,.. You know, they did it at Headingley. They did it at Edgbaston. You know, the kids would come out and play on the, on the ground, and we felt that we never quite got that time where it was really important for the audience to kinda see that again. But, I think it's, it's really interesting. We've started this series, and these were a bunch of, guys, most of whom didn't have kids, and they had that kind of youthful lack of responsibilities. And it's been amazing to watch them, purely as viewers really, become people who, yeah, are mo… are more focused on going home and making sure that their daughter gets to sleep on time than anything else.

32:17Jawad MirRight. Right. Are you guys, looki… Well, I guess, let me before I ask that question, were there any screenings of any sort that were done for the players for Cricket Australia that you guys were present for any of the se… series? And if so, what has their reaction been?

32:45Guest 1I think there's two. It's funny going in. I think there's some players who are really fascinated by it, really, supportive to open the doors. I remember early on, Aaron Finch, Usman Khawaja's one. You know, Pat. Really, you know, yep, they'll watch it back and have feedback and really like it. Where I think other players go, "Have not watched it. Won't watch it. I lived it." So that it's almost like, hey, kind of move forward in life. I hope one day maybe they'll, you know, get to look back with their kids in 20 years to go, "Hey, this was a documentation of a period of time." so it's been, it's been interesting. I think hopefully, you know, you're not aware, but I think hopefully they get some positive feedback just through the experience of viewers that watched it, whether they're walking down the street and say, "Hey, I love this moment," or, "I love this moment," you know?

33:36Jawad MirI think Steve Smith said that, right? That he lived, he likes to live, right, yeah. Yeah, which…

33:40Guest 1Yeah, Mitch Marsh said it.

33:41Guest 2Mitch Marsh.

33:42Jawad MirYeah. And I think…

33:42Guest 2Yeah, Mitch Marsh said that.

33:43Jawad MirOh, Mitch Marsh said that, okay. And I think it's, you're right. Down the road, they probably... I, s… I would say they definitely will, but it's different now. You know, you're still in that... And any plans or any kind of thing you can talk about if there is any more plans for another series that's coming up down the road, or you guys don't know yet or you can't talk about it?

34:05Guest 1No, we never really know. Like, I think even for this last series, we didn't, didn't quite know. Like, it would've been fantastic to shoot Border-Gavaskar, would've been fantastic to shoot the World Cup last year. You know, you sort of go in thinking that'd, that'd be great. There's always this part of, you know, you go into a series thinking, "Okay, could it..." You don't know what's gonna happen. No one could've predicted the, you know, that tour to be, to unfold how it did. It certainly did provide a certain full stop to this era as such, and maybe because when we first started this, you know, and I think even Justin Langer had... What did he have? From Lille to Lord's, and it was sort of almost the end of... Well, it was a World Cup he was sort of mentioning then. But it finished in that Ashes of 2019, and then four years later we're back there again with a lot of these young cricketers that we saw debut in series one get to this point. And yet also, I don't know if... You know, Usman Khawaja may not be back in the UK again as part of an Ashes.

35:08Guest 1Dave Warner, Steve Smith, who knows? So it certainly does feel this somewhat full stop to a certain era. So it's, I think for Sheldon and I, we always go into go, "Okay, if you're just gonna follow the next series, is it just enough to follow the series? Like, what are we actually trying to tell?" And when we came into the editing process of this one, that was the first question. What's this series about? You know, and then we settled on it and it's like, well, it's probably the defining tour for this formation of this cricket team at this point. You know, that's, that's what it's about. That's what we hit on. So I think as long as there's a reason to do the next series, which isn't just, okay, we're just, we're just…

35:51Jawad MirRight. Right

35:51Guest 1... Putting cameras behind the scenes of this series. Th… w… yeah, we've gotta... What are we trying to tell? If that's there…

35:56Jawad MirI think it would've been really... Sorry, go on.

35:59Guest 1No, I'm just saying if that was there, hopefully you can continue and certainly jump into a new one.

36:04Guest 2Yeah.

36:04Jawad MirI think it would've been really cool, not the fact that Australia won the World Cup, but I think that game against Afghanistan where Glenn Maxwell single-handedly, you know. I think that would've been a great story to tell and an episode of this…

36:20Guest 1Not only that, I think we were also down. I think we'd lost the first two matches.

36:24Guest 2First two, yeah.

36:25Guest 1Yeah.

36:25Jawad MirYeah.

36:25Guest 1I think there was a point to go, "Ooh, lucky we're not, lucky we're not filming this. This'll be a hard story to tell." And then, you know, sport works in funny ways.

36:34Jawad MirAbsolutely. It's similar to what happened to Argentina. I don't watch soccer, but I... You know, you follow scores here and there. But when I watched the series, Argentina was lose… They lost to Saudi Arabia, I think, in one of the group matches. And because of... There was a scene in the series where, w… the coach or somebody in the coaching staff says to the Argentinian t… players that, "What, are you guys, like, looking to do selfies with the Saudi players? Like, you know, get on your horses and play." And after that match, everything turned around. I think same thing happened with Australia, right? Like, they lost to India. There was a drop catch of Virat Kohli. Everything turned around after that. So sports does do funny things. And kind of, I know you have to go. Aside from Cricket, w… are you guys working on any other projects or looking to, or taking a break right now?

37:28Guest 1Always looking to. Always looking to. It's,.. But equally, again, it's, it's what's…

37:34Jawad MirThe story.

37:35Guest 1Yeah. What's the story? And what's…

37:37Jawad MirYeah

37:37Guest 1... Exciting and what's, and what's new? Because I do think we've been pitched a number of things to go, "Hey, w… you can come in here and this is... Time's right to do a behind the scenes on this football team or this f… you know, sporting organizational club." But you're going, "Well, what's the, what's the hook? What's, what's the…"

37:57Jawad MirYeah

37:57Guest 1... "hook of the way in that..." And I think the important part of that is, what's the hook that if you do not win it all, and you don't win the Test Championship… ... You don't win the Cup, is there still a story there? Because if it's only built on winning, I just don't think that's enough.

38:14Jawad MirYeah. No, I couldn't agree more. I mean, especially in the world of documentaries, like, for me, it's so important to figure out not only the protagonist, whoever that is, right? But what's the starting point, and what's the potential endpoint, and then how that journey takes place, that's fascinating. And not knowing how the hell that's gonna happen scares the crap out of me, but at the same time excites the hell out of me, right? It's just, it's just one of those things. But yeah, story is pivotal, and that's what, that's what makes this entire series, all three series, so interesting, that even though it's about Cricket Australia, majority of it's about Ashes, you guys still keep it very engaging and interesting. So, you know…

38:58Guest 1I think that's... No, I think that

39:00Jawad Mir... Really

39:00Guest 1I think that's been the part of it that's interesting because you get this balance of, I think, cricket fans that are, "You didn't include this, and you didn't include that." And the challenge has always been to go, "Well, we can't just recap the highlights. We can't just say…

39:13Jawad MirYeah.

39:13Guest 1"Is everyone..." I even was listening to something this morning in World Test Championships, Steve Smith makes 100, not mentioned, and it's, "Oh, you... You know, there's all these details." But we... You can find that. You can go on Crickinfo or whatever else and go, you wanna find the scores? You can find the scores. We still are making an entertaining product or something that you're aware of the viewers, that the viewers have to understand and buy into the story we're telling, as opposed to just recounting scores and highlights.

39:41Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's the same thing with, like, any social human rights or any kind of other story. Like, it's all news items. If you're just gonna put the news clippings together as a, as... Unless there's a protagonist living through all that stuff, then it becomes more engaging and interesting, right? So awesome. A… anything you guys wanna add? Sheldon, you wanna say something at the end?

40:01Guest 2No, not particularly. Not particularly.

40:04Jawad MirOkay.

40:06Guest 2But.

40:07Jawad MirAre you guys looking forward to the World Cup?

40:10Guest 1Yeah, I am. It'll be interesting. That'll be interesting. It's sort of interesting from a different point of view of not having cameras in and not going…

40:17Guest 2Yeah

40:17Guest 1... "Oh, what's gonna happen every day?" I think one of the enjoyable... You just mentioned then about what scares the hell, you know, not knowing how you're gonna get from point A to B. And one of the most enjoyable points through this series and making, you know, one, two, and three, was usually Sheldon and I ringing up going, "What are we hoping for? Well, we hope Australia win, or we hope this happens." And then something remarkable that would happen to Ben Stokes…

40:41Guest 2Yeah

40:41Guest 1... And we'd sit in the morning and go, "Oh, but it's good for the documentary."

40:45Guest 2Yeah.

40:45Guest 1You know? And that would be like this and this. And I remember, you know, that was way back in 2019 when the Ben Stokes innings in Australia were so close, and p… part of us were all really flat, I think even in the production team. But I think Sheldon…

40:58Guest 2Yeah

40:58Guest 1... And I were sort of the only ones with the positive outlook to go…

41:02Guest 2Yeah

41:02Guest 1... "But how amazing is this now for us?" Like, what another turn we can lean into. So i… if anything that I've learned across the way with all of these, it's that fear of how you're gonna do it is, well, that's the only way.

41:15Jawad MirYeah.

41:15Guest 1Because otherwise, you know, you have to embrace that and go, more than ever now, I can say I'm comfortable in not knowing how this is going to turn out.

41:25Jawad MirAnd I couldn't agree with you more. You enjoy it. It just, you know, builds something inside. And you mentioned something about Ben Stokes. I... There's no better arc in my view in cricket than Ben Stokes because what happened to him in 2015 and 2016 World Cup against West Indies where he got hit for four sixes, and then to t… not only win the 2019 World Cup because of him, but also that Headingley inning. I mean, that's a remarkable arc, and I wish somebody was... Somebody tells a story on that because that's a great arc.

41:59Guest 2We've been really lucky, I think, to have really great antagonists, and I mean that in the, in the…

42:05Jawad MirYeah. I get it. I get it

42:06Guest 2... Storytelling functional way…

42:08Jawad MirYeah

42:08Guest 2... Throughout the entire series. And like, and you go back to, you go back to Kohli. You know, it was a huge character and a huge presence throughout our series. But I actually think that it's been really fun t… to highlight some of the people that you weren't expecting or that their game kind of had an impact on the team in a way that kind of demanded that they be in the story. And Pujara's a really good example of that in the first series.

42:37Guest 2And it was fantastic that he kind of became such a, big character within a couple of episodes there. And you know, Babar Azam obviously became a character in that third ep of the second series. So I reckon, yeah, there's been something really kind of... And Ben Stokes obviously is the biggest, is the... Between him and Kohli, they're the biggest kind of, characters that we've seen on the other side of the fence. But it's been a really... I just love that we've been able to kind of give a face to the other teams at times.

43:15Jawad MirYeah. No, that's great. Thank you so much, guys. Listen, thank you again for making the series. Loved it. I've been recommending it to everybody I know. And continue making stories. And I would love to talk to you more whenever you guys have the next project, ready to go and lined up to be on the streaming platform.

43:34Guest 1Always. Thanks so much for having us. It's been really enjoyable. Thank you, and thanks for watching.

43:37Guest 2Yeah.

43:38Jawad MirThank you, guys.

43:39Guest 2Thanks, mate. Thanks very much.

43:40Jawad MirThank you. Take care.