'The Family Plan', Cinematographer, Michael Burgess

0:00Michael BurgessFirst of all, the dynamics of working with a father-son relationship can go either way. It can be the horrible thing, which I've heard.

0:08Jawad MirYeah.

0:08Michael BurgessOr it can be fantastic, which it was in my case. What he did great is he never gave me any leeway. When I was a second AC, I was, like, fumbling with a, this piece of equipment or whatnot, and, you know, obviously time is money on a movie set. And so he walks over and he goes, "You take that home and you don't come back till you figure it out." n… not at that moment, but, like, "You take it home and you figure out how to do it, and then you come back to work. Like, don't, like, stop messing around on my movie set."

0:32Jawad MirYou know, when the action is called, this whole world morphs into these people in front of the camera, and everything else behind the camera just doesn't exist. Having worked on What Lies Beneath or the other film, and you saw the final film on the big screen, comparing that to that experience, do you remember that feeling of, "Holy crap, how did this happen?" I'll tell you, I'm looking forward to your dad's film here, even though I haven't seen it.

1:01Michael BurgessOh, I s… I watched that last week. It's, the story's fantastic. It, you know, it's a, it's a movie. You know, l… you know, lets you cry, makes you laugh. You know, sends you home feeling good. Hey, how we doing?

1:21Jawad MirI'm doing good. And yourself?

1:23Michael BurgessI'm, I'm doing good. Doing real good.

1:26Jawad MirGood to have…

1:26Michael BurgessIt's a pleasure to meet you.

1:28Jawad MirLikewise, good to have you. After talking to your dad so many times, it's good to have you.

1:34Michael BurgessOh, have you, have you done it with him a few times?

1:37Jawad MirFive, six times.

1:39Michael BurgessOh, you have? Oh, wow.

1:40Jawad MirYeah. I…

1:41Michael BurgessI've listened to a few of them. I didn't realize it was that much. That's cool.

1:44Jawad MirIt was, Contact, Spider-Man, What Lies Beneath, Cast Away, and maybe one or two other that I'm forgetting. Oh, yeah, Wonder.

1:55Michael BurgessWonder.

1:56Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

1:57Michael BurgessThat's cool.

1:57Jawad MirIt's been, it's been good chatting with him all the time.

1:59Michael BurgessWell, very cool. He said it was a very fun, good experience, so that's…

2:03Jawad MirI'm glad to hear that

2:04Michael Burgess... You know, a compliment to hear.

2:05Jawad MirYeah. Good to hear, good to talk to you. I actually wanna start off by something. It's funny. So I think I saw a scene being shot of The Family Plan in February of 2023, I would like to guess. I was in Vegas, and I even have pictures of it, so let me just show it to you.

2:30Michael BurgessTha… that would make sense, 'cause we were finishing in Vegas at that... Yeah.

2:38Jawad MirYeah. So I was in, Vegas with my wife, and we went to,.. Oh, God.

2:45Michael BurgessDid you go to the dam?

2:46Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. So we were, we were going there, and then we went up to this area where you have a great view of the entire area, of the mountains and the dam. And we were coming back, and the police just closed everything. I'm like, "What the hell is going on?" And then this truck passes by, and then I see that shot of him in the car very quickly in the trailer, and I put the two together. I'm like, "That's what I saw."

3:10Michael BurgessOh, that's cool. That's definitely us. We did, we did a full day out there, when they're like, just before they enter, Vegas, the family goes across the dam, and we do this helicopter shot of Ren on the family on the car, and then we pull back and reveal the dam, and them going over it. And, so that's how we started the morning, and then we got into the car stuff here.

3:34Jawad MirYeah.

3:35Michael BurgessIt was…

3:35Jawad MirPretty cool. I'm just gonna stop.

3:37Michael BurgessIt was…

3:37Jawad MirSorry, go ahead.

3:37Michael BurgessThat's com… I can't believe that you actually were there to see that. How random is that?

3:41Jawad MirIt i… it is very random, and at the time, obviously I didn't know what it was until the trailer came out and there's a shot in the trailer of, who's the actor? He's sitting in the car. Basically, it's a shot of him in the car, and I picked up the car and the backdrop very quickly. I'm like, "That's the one I saw. That's exactly what I saw."

3:59Michael BurgessAwesome.

4:00Jawad MirBut…

4:01Michael BurgessI mean, kudos to you. I mean, that had to be seven months after you probably saw that, and the fact that you could register the two is pretty, that's pretty quick money.

4:11Jawad MirYeah. No, it was cool watching that. I'm just gonna stop sharing it. But you know what I would love to know, Michael, you know, you have worked a lot over the years. You know, different productions, obviously with your dad as well. But we won't talk about that much. I just wanna know how Michael came to be where he came to be. Like, aside from watching things around him, like, what triggered that inside you to be where you are today? What's your journey been like?

4:45Michael BurgessWell, that's a good question. I guess it w… it would start with, well, for one, a… as you, have researched and know, I... 'Cause ever since I was in high school, I was working on sets, you know, with my dad and with other DPs. And, I just like, there's something about it. It's, like, intoxicating being on a set and just seeing what everyone does. And then all of a sudden, like, at the end of however months you're doing this, you know, even years, y… there's this thing that's created. And so there's something to be shown for your work, which I think is very fascinating and very, I think it's just a very cool thing to, like, there's representation for what you, all your work, which is great. That is kinda the start of it. And then I didn't, I can't say for sure that right off the bat I was gonna be a DP. Like, that was, that came a little bit later.

5:42Michael BurgessBut I definitely, through, you know, all the different p… jobs I had, I took different positions, whether it was DIT-ing or loading or second AC-ing or, operating. Just for me, it clicked at a certain point of, like… Wow, I just love shooting. I always liked photography. I took photography in high school, and I loved capturing images. And but more importantly, when you can capture images into telling a story that leads to, like, emotional feelings, that's when it clicked for me. I was like, "Wow, that's a… that c… that's pretty powerful." And I remember even in film school, I, yeah, I went to USC film school. And in the... You kinda like, there's no like, you don't just go to film school for cinematography or directing or editing.

6:33Michael BurgessThat school is a little more well-rounded. And I even found myself at a certain point, like, shooting other kids' things for them, like other films for the other kids 'cause they were, you know, they wanted to be directors and I just naturally went in that direction. So when I graduated, I just, it just clicked, like, oh my God, I love this. You know, this is, this is what I wanna do. And I'm not gonna lie. It's probably my dad does it, so there's that father-son bond, relationship…

7:02Jawad MirOf course

7:02Michael Burgess... That you see your father, you look up to him and, you know, so I'm sure some of that went down. But yeah, I just started gravitating towards, you know, putting a camera on my shoulders and capturing things.

7:15Jawad MirThat's cool. And i… you know, you said that in the beginning it wa… you weren't really sure if it was some cinematography that you wanted to do. Do you remember the movie or that moment where it kinda just fell into place, okay, this is, this is where I'm heading?

7:33Michael BurgessThere was... Yes, I do. It was, I was operating on a movie, The Muppets, the first Muppets that w… that rebooted. And for my dad, who shot the movie. And I was given the opportunity to go start doing some splinter stuff. So when I say splinter stuff, you know, it's like, oh, we shot this scene.

8:00Jawad MirYeah.

8:00Michael BurgessWe need to get this insert or that insert, you know, I'm, I'm, you know. So they sent me off to start doing that. And then more and more started coming up. And, you know, towards the end of the movie, it started to, it started to become kinda big stuff 'cause they started trusting me more. And I just remember doing that. I really love lighting, and I really took to it. And I didn't really know, 'cause you know, you don't really get to, like, light things on a small scale. Like, it's, you do, but it's, when you first start out, I think as filmmakers, you're just thinking about trying to tell a story, where to put the camera, all this kind of stuff. But when you can really get into, like, focusing on lighting things, for some reason that just really touched me and, I just really just was drawn to it. And on that movie, the more and more I got to do of that, I was like, oh, this is, this is what I wanna do. I wanna shoot movies.

8:55Jawad MirAnd did you go and talk to Don, your dad, about it and saying that this is what I wanna do, and what was his reaction?

9:03Michael BurgessY… you know what? I don't know if we've ever actually had that conversation.

9:07Jawad MirI think…

9:07Michael BurgessI feel like he never, he never pushed me in any direction.

9:13Jawad MirYeah.

9:13Michael BurgessHe kinda just let me find it. I'll tell you this. I think if he probably didn't push me in that direction, he probably didn't want me to do that, 'cause he's like, "This is, it's, it's difficult. It's, you know, it's just like, it's a challenging lifestyle. It's, it's not for everybody, right? You gotta really love it to do it." And I think…

9:32Michael Burgess... I luckily found that naturally by myself. So obviously…

9:36Jawad MirWas there ever p… Sorry, go on please.

9:37Michael BurgessI was gonna say obviously he always gave me the chance to explore that.

9:41Jawad MirYeah.

9:41Michael BurgessBut you know, he, I don't remember, like, there was never a conversation of like, "This is what I wanna do." And he was like, "Yeah, you gotta do that." He just kinda, it was more of a natural, organic kinda outcome.

9:53Jawad MirYeah. Was there ever a time where you probably felt that you wanted to do something else? So for example, for me, like I wanted to be a director since Jurassic Park came out, the very first Jurassic Park came out.

10:08Michael BurgessLove that movie.

10:08Jawad MirAnd I, e… amazing movie. And I hadn't, I didn't know that I would end up... At the time, you know, when you're young, you're like, you'll, you'll shoot and you'll edit. And I learned all those things. As much as I enjoyed them, I still feel like directing is the thing, right? Like, you go through all those things and you enjoy editing and you enjoy doing, camera work. But was there ever a time where you felt, or even now, like you want to direct? I mean, that's probably the closest thing that comes to a DP is directing.

10:40Michael BurgessW… well, it, first of all, at the beginning it's like, I even in film school, I used to love staying up all night and editing my movies and it was fantastic. But, like, it just never gave me the same amount of joy as shooting did. So and even like directing with the actors and stuff, like I even remember I worked with the actors more in relationship to the shots and how to tell the story, rather than working with them on their performance and that.

11:08Jawad MirRight.

11:08Michael BurgessSo I just naturally went in that direction. Now having explored, you know, shooting big movies and small movies or whatever, just working with actors more and directors and really seeing what it all, what they actually really can do, directing has definitely crossed my mind. But it would, it would have to be material that I really connect with.

11:34Michael BurgessI couldn't do it just as, like a job, you know? Like, it would, it would have to be material that I really responded to and I had a clear point of view of, you know, what I wanted.

11:45Jawad MirWhat genre attracts you? Just out of, yeah, out of curiosity if you were to direct. It doesn't matter

11:52Michael Burgess... Again, I don't think there's a genre necessarily that like…

11:56Jawad MirThe character, the story

11:57Michael Burgess... Yeah, it's more of, like, the story itself and the characters and if I feel like, oh, this could, this is interesting. And no, a… and the same in response to my shooting. Like I am… It's more interesting to try all of them.

12:14Jawad MirYeah.

12:14Michael BurgessLike I would love to shoot, you know, a western, which I have never had. I've pretty much been a lot in the horror genre, as I'm sure you can see. And then now with The Family Plan, which was very exciting to me, I got into the comedy action. 'cause as a... I personally love to watch those movies.

12:32Jawad MirYeah

12:32Michael Burgess... Those are… they're fun. So i… i… it's fun to, I think to round out the resume and do something new every time, which keeps it interesting.

12:40Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, it certainly does, and I think trying different things helps you grow as well as a human being, and you learn so much, right, on the set and from stories and the characters and actors.

12:53Michael BurgessYeah. That's the other thing is every script, you know, you do, you kind of, you have the ability to like research and learn new things, you know? So I think the different kind of movies you do, the more well-rounded, the more you learn, which I think is the fun part of the job, right? That's, that's kinda why we do it.

13:13Jawad MirSo you had… You were a director of photography and according to IMDb, I think on two horror films, Conjuring and, I think it's called Annabelle Coming Home. Annabelle Comes Home. Is that correct?

13:29Michael BurgessThose are two of a few others then.

13:32Jawad MirYeah.

13:32Michael BurgessYeah, horror films.

13:33Jawad MirSo leading… I think there was another one called M… Malignant? Yeah, Malignant.

13:37Michael BurgessMalignant.

13:38Jawad MirYeah. So you did those three, which are... You know, again, we're not just cutting to a genre, but they were one genre. But then you go do a film like a fam… The Family Plan, you know, with Mark Wahlberg, and the type of story it was, it was, I mean, at least the way the pacing of the film was, it was just, you know, very kind of like go, and it was a story of a family and just trying to pr… you know, his, this guy trying to protect his family and protect himself and everything. What was that experience like? Was there any kind of transition that you felt not necessarily the word shocking, but more so, like, difficult to embrace, compared to what you had done before? Or was it pretty easy transition for you to do something like Family Plan?

14:25Michael BurgessWell, f… p… personally, for me, it was a pretty easy transition. I don't like... A… and this kinda came up 'cause I'm sure they were, at first, you know, worried, like, oh, 'cause up to then I've done pretty much, as, you know, the main DP, I've done pretty much horror films. So I'm pretty sure they're like, "Oh, my gosh. Can this guy shoot a, an action comedy movie?" And my, like my response always to that is, like, as DPs, you don't… You shoot the pages. You shoot what's written. You shoot…

14:57Michael Burgess... What the actors are doing. You shoot the tone. L… and it's not about, like, oh, he only knows how to, you know, light a dark set or this. N… you know, I... We're still storytellers, and so you tell the story properly with the lighting and the camera work and... So for me, I just, I don't even think about that. I just think about, you know, what's, what's the story? What are we trying to tell? What's the audience, and what's the tone that we're trying to do? And, so for me, that just, I don't know if it's a personal thing, but that just kind of clicks naturally to, just what's on the page. Not necessarily…

15:36Jawad MirA… and… Yeah. And I'll tell you, I did not know that you had d… had done three horror films before The Family Plan. Now, when I saw The Family Plan, I actually mainly saw it, because of that photograph I showed you in the beginning. I'm like, "Okay, I took a photograph, you know, on the, behind the scene. I'd just like to see what it is, and it's Mau… Mark Wahlberg. It's action. It's family. It's comedy." And I did not for once feel, like, you know how Hollywood kind of pigeonholes everyone?

16:03Michael BurgessYeah.

16:04Jawad MirThat you belong to a certain genre. Like, you're coming from a horror genre if that's such a thing 'cause it just seemed pretty seamless to me. Like, it was just like, you know, something that you've done many times and the lighting was fantastic in the film. Everything was lit up accordingly to the story and the characters and the feel of everything. So just wanted to mention that.

16:27Michael BurgessWell, I appreciate that 'cause it is,.. I… I… I… Listen, a lot of people do get pigeonholed, whether it's in actors in certain roles… ... Like they get typecast or, you know, like in the, I would say, the horror f… genre is a, is a kind of a more prominent pigeonhole area to where people think you can only shoot horror films. But again, I think it's, you know, we're j… we're shooting the story. That's, you know, to me, that's what it's all about. And I don't know if that's given to the fact that, yes, a… as a, as a DP, I've primarily shot horror films, but, you know, prior to that, I've been second unit and worked on it, a, you know, a whole gamut of movies and types…

17:07Jawad MirYeah

17:07Michael Burgess... Genres and,.. So yeah. That's, you know. It's all about being well-rounded.

17:14Jawad MirFor sure. Working with family is an interesting dynamic. Doesn't matter if it's on the film set. It could be in a company or it could be in a retail shop or a donut shop. Whatever it is. What was that like? You know, was there ever a time... You know, obviously you have to draw a line between you're, even though, yeah, you're my son or you're my dad or you're my daughter or you're my sister, like, there's that professional line. The first time you ever worked with your, on a movie set and your dad was DP, w… what was that pressure like? Not necessarily from the fact that you're working on this film but because, you know, the old man is up there. Like, your dad is keeping an eye, you know, watching you do what you want to do and kind of living up to his expectations, even though he probably never conveyed that to you, but just in your head as a son you have that, right?

18:10Michael BurgessIt… First of all, the dynamics of working with a father-son relationship Can go either way. It can be the horrible thing, which I've heard…

18:20Jawad MirYeah

18:20Michael Burgess... Or it can be fantastic, which it was in my case. And I think the, why it worked so well for us is because I, you know, no matter what position I held on his team, I did the job. You know, that was, th… that was what was most important. And yes, we still maintain the father-son relationship, but we have both also treated very much so like I was part of his crew, this is what he expected out of me, and you gotta do it. And what he did great is he never gave me any leeway.

18:56Jawad MirYeah.

18:56Michael BurgessHe wasn't like, he treated me like another crew member.

18:59Jawad MirYeah.

18:59Michael BurgessWhich I think put me in line to be like, "Oh, I'm a crew member. This is what I'm meant to do." And that's how we treated, no matter what position I was on or anything. And we were, we were, we always maintain a good relationship in that, in those terms, where I worked for him. He was my boss. So, he wa… on set, he was my boss, not my dad, but obviously he was my dad, too.

19:22Jawad MirYeah. It kind of goes back to the whole thing of have… being parents, just in general, not just, you know, in your case, in anyone's case. Helicopter parents or bulldozer parents where they, if they pave the way for you, especially bulldozer parents, you might last one or two projects, but then when you're on your own in the real world, and that eventually will happen, like, you know, you're not gonna be working, like in your case, like, you're not gonna be working with your dad forever, right? So when you come into that real world, you know what the expectations are. You're prepared for that. So the kudos to your dad for that because, again, like you said, rarely it ha… goes in the positive direction no matter what profession it is. Because sometimes fathers can be a little bit more extra tough on you because they don't want everybody else to think they are trying to be easy on you, so you have to find that fine line between…

20:09Michael BurgessThere was a little bit of that going on

20:10Jawad MirYeah.

20:10Michael BurgessThere was a little bit of that going on.

20:11Jawad MirLittle bit…

20:12Michael BurgessI remember this one…

20:12Jawad Mir... But not too much.

20:13Michael BurgessNo, not too much. But there was this one time where when I was a second AC, I was, like, fumbling with a, this piece of equipment or whatnot. And, you know, obviously time is money on a movie set. And so he walks over, he goes, "You take that home and you don't come back till you figure it out." Not at that moment, but, like, you take it home tonight, you figure out how to do it, and then you come back to work. Like, don't, like, stop messing around on my movie set, was kind of how it, kind of how it was. So it was tough love, which was great. I loved it.

20:37Jawad MirBut what, at the time you probably didn't love it.

20:41Michael BurgessNo, you, no, I probably didn't. I probably did not. But I always…

20:46Jawad MirI'm not trying to put you on the spot.

20:47Michael BurgessI always worked extra hard to, you know…

20:50Jawad MirYeah. Make him proud.

20:52Michael BurgessYeah. Exactly.

20:53Jawad MirYeah. Working with Simon, on The Family Plan, you know, th… that experience and obviously not that y… I don't think you're the star ty… struck type. But still, being on, involved in a film of that caliber with, you know, such a star, Mark… Mark Wahlberg, and working with Simon, what was that experience like?

21:17Michael BurgessIt was a great experience. Simon is a wonderful human being, a great director, but again, like I said, wonderful human being, and he's so just, he creates a good environment on his set, which I think is super important. And, you know, a, that, and that all starts from the top. That'll trickle down.

21:43Michael BurgessAnd if you can keep that positive, good energy on a set, it makes a world of difference, 'cause, you know, we're working together for 14 hours a day. So the more you keep that positive, the harder people work, the more interested they are in helping you. And so i… he created a great environment and Mark did as well, and Michelle, and they were all a pleasure to work with and for, and, 'cause it can be, it can be a little rough, as you know. But i… and this was the first movie I've done with Simon, and Mark and Michelle, but I think it all, everything was clicking and everyone was getting along well.

22:22Jawad MirWhat was something that you learned on this film, or even in the first few films that you did, that, you know, you, again, I, like, look, I, what I'm saying, what I'm about to say doesn't mean that... Because one thing I always feel that, you know, there's always this conversation in the world about such and such is such and such's son or daughter, and I always believe that, yeah, sure, that's the case, but at the same time, you can be, but you still have to make sure that you stay there on your own merit, right? And that's, that's the thing that I find a lot of people have a hard time doing. So kudos to you that you are at that point, no matter what people would say, is that where you are able to do things on your own. But at the same time, when you are, the first time you ever did s… a feature, or The Family Plan, was there a lot of pressure in your head that, "Am I gonna be able to sort of go through this? Am I gonna be able to pull this off?"

23:23Jawad MirYou know, positive pressure.

23:26Michael BurgessI mean, I think there's, there's pressure for me on every movie I do just because I want to excel and I want it to be fantastic and I wanna, you know. So I would say I put more pressure on me personally, on myself, because I want it, I want to elevate to a certain level and, you know, which is why, like every movie I've done, I've tried to make it bigger and bigger and bigger each time. Because I feel like, you know, I grew up in a, playing sports, so I was very competitive. And, you know, th… this is just one big competition, so I always strive to…

24:01Jawad MirOf course

24:02Michael Burgess... You know, do better each time and do, you know, something different. I, so yeah, I put that pressure on myself every time and I felt like if I did, if I didn't do that, I'd, I'd become complacent and in the, i… in my mind that just means I don't care.

24:20Jawad MirYeah.

24:20Michael BurgessSo, like, it's the same thing like… You know, I still get nervous every time I go on set for the first time, because I care. That's, that's why... So if I don't get that feeling, that's when I'll really worry.

24:34Jawad MirYeah. No, that's true. That's so true. It's, it does totally... I was telling this story to somebody else on a podcast. You probably, your dad knows him, Simon Wells. He worked with Bob Zemeckis a lot. He's a storyboard artist at, DreamWorks. And, I was telling him this story. I took a directing course by this assistant director, Peter Marshall, and, this was like 10, 11 years ago, and he told us a story of a film and the director, without naming the name of the film or the director, that how this guy was hired, you know, based on his resume and his, confidence, and he didn't really have any portfolio, and he was given a feature film of a major Hollywood comedy I think it was. And he came on the set very chillax and, you know, I know it all type of thing, and he didn't have... And then he had a nervous breakdown. He had no clue what to do. So the first AD, Peter D. Marshall, he took over the film.

25:34Jawad MirHe directed the entire film, and the guy who had a nervous breakdown got the full credit of the director. But…

25:41Michael BurgessYou're kidding me.

25:42Jawad MirYeah. I… he didn't tell us the name. He said, "W… I can't tell you the name." So I don't know who it was.

25:50Michael BurgessSee. That's what I... See, but that's what I'm talking about. You get too comfortable with something…

25:53Jawad MirYeah

25:53Michael Burgess... Then you know, you, that's not,.. I don't think that ever bodes anybody well.

25:59Jawad MirNo, it does not. But, you know, Peter Marshall had done, like he had, I think he's in China now, but he has done stuff like Happy Gilmore, Dawn of the Dead, Butterfly Effect, and a whole bunch of other, like big films in the '90s. So I mean, it's, it is probably a big film, which, but I just found it very fascinating that how, you know, going back to what I was saying, that, yeah, you can probably get a break for whatever reason, whether it's because of your own overconfidence or because of somebody in the family, but you cannot maintain that, because you have to do that on your own and only on your own.

26:32Michael BurgessNo. Well, h… here's the thing is, you know, y… yes, I can get a break, which I have. I've been very lucky to, but it's when it becomes, like, my father and I now hold the same position on set, so he can't hire me anymore. Well, he could, but, you know. So it's like, he, how, you can't, another DP to talk a dir… another director into hiring me is not really a thing. Like…

27:00Jawad MirYeah

27:00Michael Burgess... He can, he can say, "Oh, he can do the job," which he's done, and blah, but i… in the end, you have to, you have to get that foot…

27:07Jawad MirProve yourself. Yeah

27:08Michael Burgess... You know. So th… that's kinda, th… that's kinda how it goes.

27:13Jawad MirYeah. No, it's so, it's so true. Michael, what inspires you besides filmmaking at this point in life in general?

27:28Michael BurgessWell, I got two kids and a wife.

27:31Jawad MirOkay.

27:31Michael BurgessSo…

27:32Jawad MirWell, that's good enough reason.

27:34Michael BurgessWhen I'm, when I'm not working, I'm pretty dedicated to the family. 'Cause as you, as you know, making a movie takes up a lot of time, and so there's often times where I don't see my kids for weeks, even months. So when I'm not working, I'm pretty dedicated to the family. But right now I'm, I'm coaching my kid's baseball team, you know, so the, it's all about family time. An… and again, I, you know, I still dabble in sports and that kind of stuff, but, you know, it, you know, I still... I mean, work is still primarily what's on my mind. Making movies, photography, I'm just, that's still pretty heavily embedded in my daily, you know, routines.

28:27Jawad MirWhat kind of photography do you do?

28:30Michael BurgessI do, I don't know. I would call it like vantage point perspective maybe. Anything that interests my eye. You know… ... I went through a phase of loving street photography where I went through the streets of Hong Kong and, you know, New Zealand and took a bunch of, you know, just would walk the streets for hours, day and night, and just take photos…

28:52Jawad MirYeah

28:52Michael Burgess... Of things that interest me. And just seeing how, you know, how just natural, the natural world of the buildings and the l… the lights, how just that all hit people and w… how they look in it, and how, you know. So I used to love just doing that, just going, walking down the street at night and photographing people in their element and just kind of seeing their faces and how they're, what they're, what are those people thinking? What are they going through? How is the light hitting them from that? And, so I really got, I got into that pretty early on. Now I just take pictures of my kids.

29:29Jawad MirDo you use a film camera or just digital?

29:32Michael BurgessSadly, I haven't used a film camera in many years.

29:35Jawad MirYeah

29:35Michael Burgess... Although Simon, gave me a beautiful film camera, Leica, on the family plan. So I've, I've dabbled a little bit back into that. But it's just tough.

29:50Jawad MirYeah.

29:50Michael BurgessYou know, I mean, these things called telephones, the sad thing is they take great photographs.

29:58Jawad MirI know. I know. Yeah.

29:59Michael BurgessI know it takes the ro… the romance out of it a little bit, but they're just so accessible and they do take pretty gosh darn good photographs.

30:08Jawad MirI th… I think it's also the element of time has gone out the window, right? Like, to take a photo, that you shoot on film, or even film itself, like you have to process it, go through a lab and all, and flatbed editing and all that stuff, and nobody has time anymore. Like, people are working on multiple projects, you know… Simultaneously

30:29Michael BurgessIt, yeah, it is. It is. It just takes time. Like, but that was also the fun part of it, 'cause you took the photograph, you sent it to a lab, it got processed, and you got it back, and you're like, "Oh," and then you saw it. So it was more of like a…

30:41Jawad MirYeah

30:41Michael Burgess... Like almost a ceremony kind of thing, of like you seeing it.

30:45Jawad MirAnticipation. I remember, I remember…

30:47Michael BurgessYeah

30:47Jawad Mir... I remember sending photos to film lab and just, like, we used to wait as a family, "Okay, it's gonna take two to three weeks," and then the one-hour photo came out.

30:55Michael BurgessYeah.

30:56Jawad MirI remember, and the dad was like, "Oh my God, one-hour photo," and now it's like a second, right?

31:01Michael BurgessInstant. Instant. But those are the times. People want everything immediately. There's no one wants to wait for anything anymore.

31:09Jawad MirYeah. What are you working on now, if there's something that you can talk about?

31:13Michael BurgessI'm, I'm in between jobs. I'm waiting for the next gig.

31:18Jawad MirFantastic. And is there something coming out that you've already done after Family Plan?

31:22Michael BurgessI believe

31:26Jawad MirThat you're able to talk about, obviously. I'm not…

31:30Michael BurgessI don't know for sure when it's coming out…

31:35Jawad MirOkay

31:35Michael Burgess... Or if it's even been

31:39Jawad MirCompleted

31:39Michael Burgess... I, yeah, I don't know if... It's completed. It's done. It's a movie that I'm very excited to come out. And worked very hard with the director on it, who I think he made a fantastic film. But I don't know if I'm allowed to…

31:55Jawad MirThat's fine

31:55Michael Burgess... Say it or not.

31:57Jawad MirNo, it's all good. Yeah, I wanna go back to, and it's a very tough question because I struggle with the answer to this question as well myself, but I'm always curious. Story, right? It's the backbone of any book, any movie, any music video, anything you wanna call it, even a painting, right? And sometimes some stories get to you in a certain way that you can't even explain what that is, and you feel attracted to them, right? W… would, what kind of... I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this. Why, what kind of story that you think, not in all cases, in some cases, or a human charac… a character in a story that attracts you to do what you wanna do? Forget the genre. Forget everything else. Just general.

32:52Michael BurgessOof, that is a tough question to answer.

32:55Jawad Mir'cause I don't know the answer to this question myself. Like, I just, people ask me, like, I have no clue. It's just something that happens.

33:01Michael BurgessI mean, I love to see, like, I love to see people, when they don't have to, do positive acts in loving or helping other people. Like… ... How do you, how do I explain that?

33:23Jawad MirI think I s… I think I see it. I, like, you're not doing it for any attention, but you're just doing it…

33:31Michael BurgessJust general

33:32Jawad Mir... Because you spontaneously, yeah.

33:33Michael BurgessYeah, it's like the, like your... I like seeing good people prevail. I don't even, I don't even know how to explain it properly, but…

33:44Jawad MirI get it

33:45Michael Burgess... It's like for me, a perfect movie is, you know, you let them cry, you make them laugh, you kick them out feeling good. It, you know, that's kind of like my... That for me is a perfect movie.

34:04Jawad MirWhat would that be growing up that's something that you saw, or some, several films that you saw? I mean, I can name dozen off the top of my head.

34:14Michael BurgessI mean…

34:17Jawad MirI mean, Forrest Gump was one of them. Home Alone was one of them.

34:19Michael BurgessI mean, For… I'm sure. Forrest Gump was great. W… another one that came out the same year, I think, was Shawshank Redemption.

34:25Jawad MirYes. That was fantastic.

34:27Michael BurgessI love that movie. Again, I don't think I cried in Jurassic Park, but I saw it. I did everything else. I saw it nine times in the theater, if I'm not mistaken. But you know, I mean, It's a Wonderful Life is one of my top favorite movies that…

34:45Jawad MirYes

34:45Michael Burgess... You know, it does all those things. And, yeah, so it's tho… you know, it's those kind of films that... And what I love about those two fil… those films is that, you know, your s… your demographic is anywhere from, I don't know, 8, 9, 10 years old to 80, 90 years old.

35:05Jawad MirYeah.

35:06Michael BurgessYou know, so when you, when you can, you know, relate to that broad of an audience, I think that is, I think that's very cool. And…

35:16Jawad MirYeah

35:16Michael Burgess... And, yeah, I think it's great.

35:20Jawad MirYou mentioned It's a Wonderful Life. How often do you watch, if at all, older movies like from the '40s and the '50s, like Orson Welles or, you know…

35:32Michael BurgessI would say…

35:35Jawad MirDavid Lean

35:36Michael Burgess... Not often enough. Other than every Christmas I watch It's a Wonderful Life, and It Happened, It Happened on Fifth Avenue, which is… ... An even older movie. But, I don't think I,.. Not enough. The answer to that is not enough. I should make more…

35:56Jawad MirHave you seen, have you seen 12 Angry Men?

36:00Michael BurgessOh man, it's been a long time.

36:03Jawad MirI…

36:04Michael BurgessA long…

36:05Jawad MirIt's... But do you know what it's about?

36:08Michael BurgessI think I saw that when I was 12 years old.

36:12Jawad MirSo in my view, it's one of the most amazing stories, films ever made because the entire film takes place in a small room with 12 people in it, from beginning to end.

36:26Michael BurgessI'm gonna rewatch that.

36:28Jawad MirAnd…

36:28Michael BurgessThat's, like, think about a task of doing that. Holy moly.

36:32Jawad MirYeah. That's why I'm saying i… i… in every aspect, from cinematography… To performance, to dialogue, everything. Like, you have... Basically the sto… you know, the premise is there's this guy that one of the jurors feels that he's not guilty, and the whole film is him trying to convince everybody else, right? And it just, in one freaking room, just like a small office room with a table, and there's like 12 people sitting, and that's it. That's the movie, and it captivates you from the opening frame till the end.

37:03Michael BurgessI mean, the, just the thought of that, like, I would love to know, like, why that dir… Who directed that?

37:09Jawad MirI don't know.

37:11Michael BurgessWell, anyways, like…

37:12Jawad MirI've never actually…

37:13Michael BurgessAs a director, you read that and you go, "Shit, 12 people, four walls for the entire movie?"

37:20Jawad MirOh, of course.

37:20Michael BurgessYou're like, this is…

37:21Jawad MirCédric Lu… Cédric Lumet.

37:22Michael BurgessOh, C… Lumet. Okay. There, of course.

37:23Jawad MirYeah.

37:23Michael BurgessThere we go.

37:24Jawad MirYeah.

37:24Michael BurgessAnd, so you gotta think, like, that's not an easy movie to pull off to make interesting for two hours, right? And, but, you know, I guess when you, one of you come to, like, an earlier question you asked, like, what do, is, like, what interests you about making movies? It's like, sometimes it's, like, the challenge of like, how am I gonna do this? How is this, how is this, how am I gonna pull this off? That is a fun thing to go into making a movie with that in mind. 'Cause it pushes you, challenges you. It's like a, almost like when you're in film school and you don't have, you don't have a lot of film. You have, like, a certain amount of film. You have very little equipment, so you have to really use your imagination, to figure things out.

38:06Jawad MirYeah.

38:07Michael BurgessI think that's, I think a fun way to do it. I think creative stuff comes out of that.

38:11Jawad MirYeah. It's from a cinematography standpoint, right? Like, it's like, okay, how do you make this scene interesting? It's just a small room. Like, what do you do that's gonna keep the audience engaged? There was another film that came out, a few years ago. I forget the name of it, but it was entirely shot in a cockpit of a plane. Like, with, that's it. Like, it was comp… And it keeps you on the edge of your seat. I'm just trying to remember the name of it. It's probably called Cockpit. But yeah, it's, it's…

38:38Michael BurgessOh

38:38Jawad Mir... It's a testament to the story, right? Like, how…

38:40Michael BurgessYeah

38:41Jawad Mir... Engaging the stories and the characters are.

38:43Michael BurgessIt is. What, was it Danny Boyle who did it on 120 s… Was it 127 Hours?

38:48Jawad MirYes.

38:48Michael BurgessAnd…

38:49Jawad MirYes

38:50Michael Burgess... He, is it James Franco? I don't remember. But…

38:53Jawad MirYes. James, yeah, he was in it

38:54Michael Burgess... He's, he's literally, in a, in a, in cave, like, and his hand's stuck under a rock, and he, we're in there for an hour and a half almost, I think, with one character in an enclosed space who can't move 'cause he's stuck.

39:09Jawad MirYeah.

39:09Michael BurgessI mean, that's like... You know, so the, those are the, a… and he made it very entertaining.

39:16Jawad MirYeah.

39:16Michael BurgessThat's not easy…

39:16Jawad MirWell, I do…

39:17Michael BurgessThat's not easy to do.

39:18Jawad MirNo, but it all starts on the paper, right? Like, the story and the character, and then the…

39:22Michael BurgessYep

39:22Jawad Mir... Director's vision, and then the actor's performance, and then everything else that falls into play, into music, production, sound design, and all that stuff.

39:31Michael BurgessIt, and it's an all, it's another reason why I l… I love making movies is 'cause it requires so many different, like, crafts, so many different jobs. And it's like, it's almost like a, it, and it comes as like almost every job there is to hold is somewhere on a, in a, on a production, right? Whether it's…

39:54Jawad MirYeah

39:54Michael Burgess... An accountant or a photographer or a painter or you, whatever it is. They just, they're all working together to make this one movie, which I, which fascinates me.

40:05Jawad MirYeah. What was the first film that you were on the set of? Do you remember?

40:12Michael BurgessI mean, the first set I kinda remember... I remember I was on, Forrest Gump set.

40:20Jawad MirOkay.

40:21Michael BurgessI'm actually a kid on the bus.

40:23Jawad MirOh, yeah.

40:23Michael BurgessIt was a…

40:23Jawad MirYour dad did tell me about that, yes

40:25Michael Burgess... Which was pretty fun. But as far, I mean, I was on sets younger than that, but that's probably the first one I actually have a visual. I think I was eight or nine at the time. And the first set I was on that I was, he kinda put me to work a little bit, was What Lies Beneath.

40:41Jawad MirOh, that's a great movie, one of my favorites.

40:44Michael BurgessIt was, it was a great movie. I was, sadly, a little too young to fully, like, understand what they were doing. And granted, you know, I was, I was off in the camera truck probably cleaning cases, and I was doing this, like Panavision just came out, like the, this photography thing where you, like, take photos of every scene and put, like, what filters, lenses, the lighting, and plotted all that. And so I was kinda doing that. But I was not like... Like, for me, that was such a big deal, and I w… I wasn't taking it all in, you know? I wasn't taking in the fact that they built this house, and they're moving walls, and there's cranes going through windows. And anyways, they did a, they did some very cool stuff on that movie with the camera.

41:30Jawad MirSo the reason I asked you that was because, you know, when you are on a set of a film, everything ki… seems disarray, and people are, you know, saying, calling cut. There's yelling going on. Not negative yelling, but you know, just, like, there's a lot of, like, talking and everything. And everybody c… you know, when the action is called, the world changes, right? This whole world morphs into these people in front of the camera, and everything else behind the camera just doesn't exist. But when you, having worked on What Lies Beneath or the other film, and you saw the final film on the big screen, comparing that to that experience, do you remember that feeling of, "Holy crap, how did this happen?"

42:19Michael BurgessI do. I actually remember that on Forrest Gump because I was on the, kind of around a lot. We had went to stay with him out in Beaufort, South Carolina for the summer, and I remember seeing the whole process and watching him kind of do things. And for some reason I remember, like, testing, like, this, I was watching this. They were testing… Like a steady cam on a RT, a ATV…

42:46Michael Burgess... To see how they're gonna shoot, like th… when he's running down and the braces fall off and…

42:50Jawad MirYeah.

42:51Michael BurgessBut anyways, so I remember seeing all that. And to me it's just like, that is. I'm not thinking about the whole picture. And then I remember a year, yeah, a year later, we were with him again another summer in Chicago doing s… he was doing something, I forget the movie. But, they showed a screening, and we, as a family, we went to the movie together. And I remember just sitting there, just watching this movie, just shocked on what was, what was happening, on what I was seeing. And I was like, "This is what you were doing?" Like, I didn't real…

43:24Michael Burgess... You know, I didn't put all that together, and I was crying, I was laughing. And, so that hit me, I'll never forget that actually. That was actually a... I wish I remembered the theater that we were in. But anyways, that was pretty remarkable, that I w… I would kinda g… that's when it clicked, like, oh, that's, that's what he does. That's what he's doing. Wow.

43:42Jawad MirWhat a great film to be, to have that memory attached to. You know, Forrest Gump is such a amazing film. I remember I was in grade 11 or 12, grade 12, and I remember at, I never saw it in the theaters, so I remember at the school auditorium, they used to have, like, movie screenings like once a month after school, and Forrest Gump was shown. And I still remember, I was sitting in the far right corner in, like, the seventh row, and just taking it all that in and that experience. It's such an amazing movie. And it's great that you experienced that y… y… that experience of going from set to the final product on such a film.

44:25Michael BurgessIt was cool. It was, it was a v… little, very fun experience and, eye-opening.

44:33Jawad MirYeah. Michael, what is that one thing, it doesn't have to be film, you would love to do that you haven't done yet?

44:46Michael BurgessYou know, I don't know if I've found that one thing yet.

44:50Jawad MirBut there is something, you think?

44:53Michael BurgessI'm sure there will be. I'm, I'm always positive. But I'm just so caught in trying to build a career and raising my kids, that it, the fact that I enjoy doing both of those so much, I haven't, I haven't had a moment to think about, "Oh, what else, what else would I, do I want to do?" I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm there yet of knowing what that is.

45:16Jawad MirFair enough. Fair enough. How old are your kids?

45:20Michael BurgessThey are six and nine.

45:23Jawad MirDo they see Dad going on the set or working with cameras, at least the nine-year-old one?

45:28Michael BurgessYou know, it's been a little tricky, because I think the last set they were on was Annabelle.

45:39Jawad MirOh.

45:41Michael BurgessI actually got a great picture with the two of them next to, w… holding the doll. It's pretty funny. But you know, then COVID happened. So, you know, bringing family on set was no longer really a possibility. So my last, you know, few movies, handful of movies, they haven't been able to really come to set. Which is sad, because you know, like I s… as we've talked about, I have a lot of great memories of see, you know, visiting my dad on set and seeing all that and, but who knows? Maybe it's a good thing. Maybe they'll become doctors and lawyers 'cause they don't get to see how cool it is to make movies.

46:17Jawad MirBut do they, do you guys talk about, like, have…

46:19Michael BurgessYeah

46:19Jawad Mir... Have they seen any of your work? Okay, you guys do talk about it. Okay.

46:22Michael BurgessSadly, it was kind of a thing, 'cause my kids, I think the only movie of mine they have not seen is Malignant, 'cause I won't let them see that one.

46:33Jawad MirOkay.

46:33Michael BurgessBut they've seen all my other scary movies. They, for a while, they loved 'em, and they would go to school and tell the kids. And m… the kids would be like, "What? Your kids have seen that?" Blah. And they'd say it was pretty, it was pretty funny. But yeah, so they're, they're aware of it and, you know, just before, this was the last two nights, I re-watched The Family Plan to, you know, so I can kinda recall what the hell was going on there, since it was a while ago.

47:00Michael BurgessBut it was my son, Donovan, who, and my daughter, London, who asked to watch the movie. So that was actually really cool, to not only have your kids ask to watch it, but enjoy watching it. That was a lot of fun. And, you know, them knowing, you know, that I was part of that and, it was a good feeling.

47:23Jawad MirYeah, that's, that's a rare thing. You should cherish it for sure, because I even remember watching,.. I mean, it hasn't happened with me yet, because the type of films that I make are extremely disturbing, so far, like human rights-based and everything. And, I remember even Spielberg talking about that, how he used to bribe his kids to watch the films from the '50s and the '60s, and they would just start watching it, and then would, they would give the cash back, and they would walk away like, "We can't put up with this."

47:51Michael BurgessYeah.

47:52Jawad MirSo it's, it's, it's good that your kids are involved in that. That's awesome.

47:57Michael BurgessIt i… it's a lot of fun. They've, they've been very supportive and, you know, for the most part, enjoying the movies that I'm making, which is fun.

48:06Jawad MirSuper cool. Super cool. Any, just to kinda wrap things up, are there any movies that, as an audience member, that you've enjoyed, recently, or that you're looking forward to in coming months?

48:19Michael BurgessWhat am I looking forward to watching?

48:23Jawad MirI'll tell you, I'm looking forward to your dad's film, Here, even though I haven't seen it.

48:29Michael BurgessOh, I s… I watched that last week.

48:31Jawad MirHow was it?

48:33Michael BurgessIt was fantastic. Oh, you're, i… it's, it's, like, such a, they took such a big swing with... I don't know how much you know about it, but…

48:42Jawad MirI can't wait

48:42Michael Burgess... They took a very…

48:43Jawad MirYeah, he told me a little bit about it off ca… offline, which obviously we can't talk about it, so I won't get there. But he has told me a little bit about it, and I'm really stoked to see it.

48:54Michael BurgessIt, you know, I hope, I hope it hits because it's, it's... The story's fantastic. It, you know, it's, it's a movie, you know, l… you know, lets you cry, makes you laugh, you know, sends you home feeling good. So, I… I'm, yes, you should be excited to see it. It's, you're, it's a good movie. Can't wait for it to come out.

49:14Jawad MirYeah, neither can I. Neither can I.

49:16Michael BurgessBut what is coming out that I wanna see? Well, funny enough, you know what I'm excited to see is that Fall Guy movie that comes out next week.

49:24Jawad MirThat looks good, actually.

49:26Michael BurgessYeah.

49:26Jawad MirThat actually looks good.

49:28Michael BurgessI think it looks very f…, fun and, you know, those are, those are kind of movies I like to watch and, you know, it's just a fun ride. So I'm, I'm actually excited to see that one.

49:40Jawad MirI'm really hoping and, you know, I... Again, everybody has their own things. I'm, I'm not a crazy person about superhero movies. Like, I've seen the first Spider-Man, I've seen the Batman trilogy, the new Batman, and I'm just so glad now, you know, after Oppenheimer, Barbie, the Fall Guy, and a bunch of other films that have come out and the coming out, Wild Robot, it's an animated film coming out this fall. I'm just excited that things are going back the way they were in the '90s, especially with, you've h… you've heard of A24, right? The production house.

50:15Michael BurgessYeah. Absolutely.

50:17Jawad MirThe films that they're making is kinda like what Miramax did in the early '90s, and that started a trend of independent film, and I really hope that somehow comes back because I really miss those films like Shawshank, you know, Forrest Gump, and Green Mile, and all those films.

50:34Michael BurgessI mean, sadly…

50:35Jawad MirReally missing it

50:35Michael Burgess... Yeah, the '90s were a great era for filmmaking and movies, and it's because the studios, they would produce those types of stories and sadly now it's, it's, it's kinda broken off into... Well, I, like you said, I think it's hopefully trending in a better direction.

50:55Jawad MirYeah.

50:55Michael BurgessBut, you know, the studios started going towards either superhero movies or like, you know…

51:00Jawad MirFranchises

51:00Michael Burgess... Low budget h…

51:01Jawad MirYeah

51:01Michael Burgess... Horror films or franchises and th… that middle kind of gap of just good old-fashioned humanity and storytelling and that, and, you know, in that direction, they just... They're, they're, I don't know if they s… they baited that there was no market for that or they thought there was no market for that. But, you know, I think, I think the one good thing out of streaming has come that, you know, they're, these streamers are willing to produce these, at least these six to t… you know, 12 series shows that kinda have…

51:31Jawad MirYeah

51:31Michael Burgess... Y… you know, depth to them and interesting stories. And so, you know, I mean, at least, you know, there, that's kind of an avenue for that these days, but it would be great to get movies like that made again.

51:42Jawad MirI'm really looking forward to, this movie called Tuesday by A24. It's, Julia Louis-Dreyfus is in it. It's like a mother and daughter relationship of, her daughter is dying and then they're... Watch the trailer. It's, the trailer will just hit you.

51:58Michael BurgessI'm, I'm writing that down. A… A24 has done…

52:01Jawad MirYeah, amazing stuff

52:02Michael Burgess... A lot, a lot of good stuff.

52:03Jawad MirBut one thing I would recommend, have you seen this eight-part series called ZeroZeroZero?

52:10Michael BurgessNo.

52:11Jawad MirOkay.

52:11Michael BurgessWhich, w… what is that? Which one's that?

52:14Jawad MirIt's just, it's called Zero, as in Z-E-R-O, zero. It's literally about... It's kinda has a Sicario feel, and it's takes place in States, the cartels and the Italian mafia, and how it's all interconnected with the... Obviously, there's a narrative and the set of characters. It's one of the most incredible series I've ever seen, and I'm so sad nobody talks... I've told this to everybody, and anybody who's ends up seeing it absolutely loves it. It's an incredible eight-part series.

52:44Michael BurgessWhere do you see that?

52:46Jawad MirI saw it on, Prime, I think during COVID. Let me just see where it is right now. Yeah, you can watch it on Prime. Yeah, you can watch it on Prime. It's, as long as you're a Prime member, you can watch it. It's, it's, it's, I…

53:04Michael BurgessOh, great

53:04Jawad Mir... It's incredible to watch it. I mean, you won't, you wouldn't wanna turn off the... You would wanna continue watching and binge-watching. It's an incredible eight-part series.

53:13Michael BurgessOh, great, 'cause I'm looking, I'm looking for something,.. So there, perfect. What's the tone of it? Is it pretty, like, gritty and dark, or is it like...?

53:21Jawad MirIf you remember Sicario, it has that kind of a feel.

53:24Michael BurgessThat same…

53:24Jawad MirI don't remember... Yeah, I don't remember how much violence, if anything, and, if you're thinking about watching with family, but it has that Sicario feel for sure. It keeps you on the edge of your seat. The cinematography is amazing. I mean, you would, you would love that.

53:41Michael BurgessGreat. Perfect.

53:43Jawad MirYeah.

53:43Michael BurgessI love that.

53:44Jawad MirAwesome, Michael. It was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, man, for your time and for your openness. I truly appreciate it.

53:52Michael BurgessThank you for having me. It was a pleasure. And, thanks for the conversation.