'Raiders of the Lost Ark', Poster Illustrator, Paul Shipper

0:06Jawad MirIt's been a long time.

0:08Paul ShipperYes, it has. It has been a while.

0:11Jawad MirWhy don't we start off with, you telling me how you got involved into doing what you do, and what is it that you do? You know, what would you classify that as official title, if there is such a thing?

0:24Paul ShipperWell, I suppose the official title would be movie poster artist or film poster artist.

0:36Jawad MirGreat.

0:37Paul ShipperAnd, it's something that when I was growing up, I didn't realize it was, it could be a potential profession at the time. But through collecting posters that I liked and putting them on my bedroom wall, one day I had an epiphany and I saw a signature on p… the posters that was the same on a few of the posters that I had on the wall, and it said Drew. And so that kind of... I was like, "Oh, maybe..." I think I was probably about 12 years old maybe at this point. And me realizing that these works of art w… were works of art, basically. They weren't just for advertising, although that was the main point of them. I was enjoying them for works of art on my walls, and reminding me of the movies that I loved as well at the same time.

1:37Paul ShipperAnd so from that point on, it became an interest of mine, 'cause I always loved drawing and, you know, painting and creating, things like that. And, it became something that I was like, I... If I was gonna do anything, that's what I wanna do, when I grow up. And, back then before the internet was around, there wasn't a lot of information on, film poster artists. I mean, there were obviously illustrators, and you saw their work through advertisements and things like that, and then obviously there was the movie poster artists. But there was little you could find out about them at that time, or that I could find out about…

2:21Jawad MirRight

2:21Paul Shipper... At that age as well. And it just became, you know, through art college to then to university. I'd studied illustration at university, and I just... It was... It became the thing that I was sort of hoping that one day would happen, just by following the footsteps of like, you know, through a, educational system. Even though the educational system toward the end, they w… they frowned upon commercial illustration where I was... They were more interested in illustration that was more a… a… akin to fine art or kind of, just not what I was into. But, yeah, it just became something that I enjoyed and I had... I actually... You know, it was, it was places that started happening on the internet at the time, like TheRaider.net for one.

3:20Jawad MirYeah.

3:20Paul ShipperAnd so being a big Indiana Jones fan, I'd, I'd drawn a lot of artwork of Indiana Jones in my childhood. And so not many people had seen it apart from at school, you know, maybe college. And then so when TheRaider.net came out, it was a website that was, you know, for fans of Indiana Jones. And so I submitted some artwork, and it was put on the website, and that might have been probably the first time I'd shared my work in that way. And, it got a nice response, and I got a lovely response from, Gilles, who was the guy who kind of did all the website. And we ended up working together as well, and then obviously working with you through that.

4:09Jawad MirYeah.

4:09Paul ShipperAnd then, you know, it's like... And that was like, what year would that have been? 2000, 2001, something like that. During that time, a lot of my work, you know, it ended up moving from a traditional to a digital kind of workflow, mainly due to, s… the few clients that I had were asking for stuff in digital, in a digital form. And so I was like, "Yeah, of course I can do that." And I, you know, I dabbled, but I hadn't really nailed it. But then trying to nail the aesthetic of the, you know, the original painted and drawn work in the computer was the key to kind of like unlocking, you know, a career I guess for me down the line. And

5:00Jawad MirYeah

5:00Paul Shipper... But yeah, that's kind of... That was... I mean, Raider.net was one of the key things for like... 'Cause the, some of the work I was doing was like, magazine related, but it was film related in a way or TV related through books. And then in the early 2000s, it kind of like went on…

5:23Jawad MirYeah

5:23Paul Shipper... From there very slowly. I mean, it took about 10 years to become an overnight success. But…

5:29Jawad MirYeah

5:29Paul Shipper... Probably more actually.

5:31Jawad MirWell, you know, it always seems in hindsight that it was, you know, to other people that it was like a break that some people get, but there's just so much behind the scene, you know, work obviously. And then bigger thing, the biggest than anything else is rejection. You know, that constant rejection that you have to…

5:48Paul ShipperYeah

5:48Jawad Mir... Face and just keep at it. And…

5:50Paul ShipperThat's true

5:51Jawad Mir... That's what defines that how much you enjoy it.

5:53Paul ShipperThat's true. Yeah. Yeah, I think rejection is one of those things that you either take it as… You know, oh, well, it wasn't for them or whatever and but you know. You have to kind of know it, something inside that just won't let you give up, and then that it just seems to be that the fact that you're not giving up, and if you... I mean, I think there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a fine line, I think. You have to have a modicum of skill, with... You can't just, you know, if you... You have to be fairly good at something and recognize that and realize that you c… you have something to offer. And then, and then just keep at it. But, yeah, realizing that and then keep moving forward without stopping is probably one of the keys to success, is just not giving up. Yeah.

6:50Jawad MirRight. Yeah, 100%. I think not giving up and also, not letting go of y… what you believe in, but at the same time always improving.

7:01Paul ShipperYeah.

7:01Jawad MirYou know, that's, that's another thing. Like, if somebody doesn't like something, that doesn't mean it's terrible, but it also doesn't mean that it's perfect, so you have to fi… figure out that path, right?

7:13Paul ShipperYeah

7:13Jawad Mir... How to sort of tackle that. But that's just…

7:15Paul ShipperOh, yeah, definitely.

7:16Jawad MirYeah. And…

7:16Paul ShipperIt's definitely a navigational thing. You have to kind of navigate your way and try and make as good a decision as you can, along those, along those tracks that you take.

7:29Jawad MirYeah. I mean, like Steve Jobs said that you have to be crazy to, you know, to love what you're doing because if you get rejection, then you're gonna give up, so you have to be completely mad about what you're doing.

7:44Paul ShipperYeah.

7:44Jawad MirBut that's great, man. I mean, it's, you know, it's good to hear these kind of stories, because people just, like I said earlier, just feel that, you know, everybody's an overnight success, and it's not…

7:54Jawad Mir... Really. It's more like 10, 15 years. Sometimes things take even longer. You said you had a poster in your room. Was that Indiana Jones, the first one, the one that inspired you?

8:05Paul ShipperWell, the... I had a few posters in my room. Raiders was one of them, the AMSEL. It was the, it was the one with where he's with the whip doing the…

8:17Jawad MirAh. Yeah.

8:18Paul ShipperAnd, along, with that there was a reprint of the Temple of Doom poster.

8:25Jawad MirYeah.

8:26Paul ShipperThere, I had, one that I got from a video shop, which was, Adventures in Babysitting.

8:36Jawad MirOh, I love that movie.

8:38Paul ShipperYeah. And what else? I mean, I've probably got a photo of my old bedroom somewhere. I just don't know where it would be, but, you... There was a point, is, I mean, they were all Spielberg related movies. George Lucas. There was obviously, there would've been a Star Wars one. It might have been an Empire Strikes Back. There was, you know, a bunch of, I mean, they would, they would just, they would change occasionally as well, 'cause you only have so much space, but, it got to the point where I had so many I would have to roll them up and then get them out, and then just look at them on the floor, and I'd like put weights on them and then just, get a magnifying glass just to see how, you know…

9:22Jawad MirOh

9:22Paul Shipper... How things were achieved.

9:25Jawad MirInteresting.

9:25Paul ShipperBecause, at wha… I think at one point I didn't realize they were, they were paintings, you know? You just think they're,.. I don't know. I think you feel, you feel like they just magically appear along with the movie, you know? You don't realize that it's about, for to make a movie there is like thousands of people involved in the making of one movie. And for a movie poster, I don't, I don't... I think at that young age, I just, I guess I just thought they j… it just came along. You don't think about the behind the scenes at the time.

9:58Jawad MirYeah.

9:58Paul ShipperBut by knowing that, I got heavily into, you know, the making of the films, the, you know, like the behind the scenes, the videos…

10:08Jawad MirYeah

10:08Paul Shipper... And the, and the books that would come out, like the making of Star Wars and the, and the, all of those things. I was, I was really interested in ILM and all that kinda, all the special effects as well. But yeah, it was the movie posters that stuck with me be… just I think because I was, when they were on the wall, it was like you could just, you were transported back to that movie in a split second and, you know. And also some of the movies, movie posters I liked, I actually hadn't, hadn't seen the movies, so it's just like, I just liked the artwork for what it gave me…

10:47Jawad MirYeah

10:47Paul Shipper... Just through the artwork. But it's very p... I just found it very powerful and it was a case of like, eventually it was like, why? Why are these, why are these things affecting me more than... You know, I'd go to art galleries and look at the art in the galleries and from famous ill… you know, artists of the day and not be very inspired. But when I saw a movie poster, if it was done well, it would ha… it had an impact on me more so. And it was like, it became like, well, why? You know, I'd, I'd have to kind of ask myself, "Why is this happening?" And, you know, it became a bit of an obsession really, and because it just made me feel so good and, made me want to try and reinvent that. Not reinvent it…

11:42Jawad MirYeah

11:42Paul Shipper... But try and be a part of that in some way and, like, tap into that and be part of that. And so…

11:51Jawad MirIs it…

11:51Paul Shipper... That's what it's like when I work on a poster. I get that feeling as well that, you know, it's, it's a, it's a great satisfactory feeling, you know, having done something for a… For a project, so

12:07Jawad MirI think it's also going back to what you said about the art galleries and versus movies, right? Like, I'm not an artist in, as obviously of your caliber in any way. I don't even, not even good at drawing stuff, basic stuff. But when I go to art gallery, yeah, I feel the same way. I would not be inspired by something, maybe a little bit, as much as I would be by a movie poster, right? It could be possibly because our love for the movies. I think that's probably that connection and, you know…

12:35Jawad Mir... Growing up and watching Goonies and Indiana Jones and all that stuff.

12:40Paul ShipperYeah. No, that's true. That's what, that's... I guess the stuff in the art galleries didn't have the same impact because it didn't have the movie to go along with it.

12:51Jawad MirWell, we didn't know the characters, right?

12:53Paul ShipperThat's true.

12:53Jawad MirLike, we don't know the characters. Did Drew do Goonies?

12:56Paul ShipperYeah. Who is this guy with the mustache and the big hat and the…

12:58Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

12:58Paul Shipper... And all these people with, like, guns and stuff. We don't know who they are. What's their story?

13:03Jawad MirNo disrespect to art galleries and their art.

13:06Paul ShipperNo. No, yeah, don't take it the wrong way. I mean, it's not, it's nothing to do with that. It's just how, you know, when you're, when you're trying to figure out, you know, what it's all about when you're a youngster and you don't really have a, much of a clue, but you... Those things that do impact you actually feel that impact. And so when you feel it's like you must, you know, you make take note of that, and you tend to kind of follow that. Or at least I know, I know some of us do. We just feel like we should be engaging with something like that. It's just kind of, it's like a magnetism.

13:51Jawad MirYeah.

13:51Paul ShipperSo.

13:52Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. You relate to it at some level. Did Drew, also do Goonies poster?

13:58Paul ShipperYeah, he did.

13:59Jawad MirThe one where they're hanging off the cliff?

14:01Paul ShipperYes. Yes. Classic. There's some... Yeah, I mean, they're kind of mind-blowing pieces of art to go alongside with these movies and, yeah, that's kind of

14:19Jawad MirYou know, it's, it's, it's insane that... I don't know, maybe because we grew up with this, and today's generation is a little different. For me, and I'm sure for you too, especially for you, like, looking at movie posters that come out now, right? Like, I'm, I'm just talking about that have literally just, like, stills, collage and all that stuff.

14:38Jawad MirThat doesn't have that much depth. And you know, I'm not in any way like a superhero fan, but if I saw a superhero movie poster that's drawn the way you do stuff and Drew did, I'd probably be more drawn to it. There's just so much texture…

14:55Jawad Mir... And so many layers it has as opposed to a regular photograph. Am I, am I... Is that right way to say it?

15:02Paul ShipperOh, I agree. There are, you know, in a lot of cases, espec… I mean, it may not be the same. Actually, I think a lot of movies, the posters are released obviously before the film, and they ha… do have an impact on people's choices. And I think for me, yeah, the same. If the poster was engaging, I'd wanna see the movie more. And I would... I mean, I still actually to this day, if I, if I don't like the marketing campaign, I'm less likely to go spend any money on that movie, 'cause it's just like, it just, it's not my kind of thing, obviously. But then that's, what's happened sometimes is I've ignored a film because of the marketing campaign, 'cause it's not been true to the movie, and then seen the movie years later and gone, "That was just... I would have loved that movie when it came out. I love it now." Yet the marketing campaign just didn't fit, and it was trying... It was almost like it had an agenda. It was trying to, like...

16:04Paul ShipperIt was trying to sell itself to other, I don't know what else, but something else, a different, market. And then when I saw it, I was like, "Nah, it's... You know, it doesn't feel like it's something I wanna watch." And yet, that project or that film turned out to be a great movie that I really loved. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a shame. I agree. I'm of the mind of like, I like truth in advertising as much as possible. So, like, you know, what you see is what you get almost. So it's gonna, it's gonna give you a definite insight into what you're gonna see, hopefully. And it's gonna be like, yeah, this is gonna... And you're not gonna sit in the theater and be disappointed c… because the poster lied to you or the trailer lied to you know? I think it's so important to try and be as, you know, honest to people, about what they're gonna sit through, without giving too much away, you know?

17:09Paul ShipperIt's a, you know, it's a fine line, really. 'Cause, 'cause the thing about a poster is it's a, it's actually a piece in, it's a narrative in a single image. So it's supposed to tell you a certain amount of things, and it's supposed to tell you those things in a, in a second. If it takes, if it takes too long for people to look at it and go, "I don't get it," then it's failed, you know? It has to be an instant kind of like, "Yeah, that's... I connect with that. That's what... That's my kind of movie." Not like, "what does it mean?" You know? It's too... Unless it's, like, supposed to be, like, that way, that's fine. But when, you know, if it's an action movie and you don't, you can't tell w… what's going on in the poster or the advertising, it doesn't... It's a shame, but it just gets in the way, doesn't it?

17:59Jawad MirHow does that... I mean, obviously you're doing so much work now, and you're super busy with so many different projects. You talked about strategizing and, you know, linking with the trailer. Like, it's basically a synergy and marriage, right? The movie, the trailer, the poster, the merchandise, all those things are essen…

18:21Paul ShipperThey're all talking to people, aren't they?

18:22Jawad MirYeah. I mean, they're all essentially designed by... I shouldn't say designed, but orchestrated by a team of people that they have a strategy in place. Do you work very closely with the marketing team or department of a particular film, and what's the process of that, if that's something that you can share?

18:41Paul ShipperSometimes. Every project's different. So, sometimes I'll be heavily involved, sometimes not so much, and I'll come in at the last minute. And so it just depends. Some of the bigger budget movies, they... A lot, a lot goes on before I get involved, even down to, like, they've, you know, they've looked at hundreds and hundreds of different, you know, campaign choices. And then they decide maybe one of those posters would work as an illustration, then they'll call someone like me to come in and work on illustrating what they've kind of come up with. Or, you know, make... I'll make a few changes, but on the whole, it's kind of like, "This is what we're going for, and we just need you to kind of make it work," you know? 'Cause it's not... It's kind of there, but it's not, it's not gelling together.

19:37Jawad MirRight.

19:37Paul ShipperAnd we think if it's illustrated, it's just gonna give it a whole, like, connection, which it does, you know? Once I... That's one of the things, taking it from, a solid design, but it's just not quite working, and it's that o… you know, age-old kind of saying is, like, just do your magic. Work your magic kind of thing. And so when you're given that responsibility, you just have to kind of bring it to the next level in a way that's gonna elevate everything, including the initial design, you know? 'Cause things can get lost. I mean, in this... In some of the posters I've worked on, there's a lot of characters, and that's not always my personal choice, but it's the choice of the filmmakers. You know, they, like, they decide these things, and that's fine. But making that work in a cohesive design so everyone kind of feels like it's, they're not just shoved in, you know?

20:41Paul ShipperIt's calculated and, the choices that are made are calculated. They're not always just, like, throw everything at it and hope for the best. And if it is, like, throw everything at it and hope for the best, then it's up to me to go, "Actually, I think I'll change a few things," and then I'll send it back and say... See what they think. And usually they like what I've ma… the choices I've made, but, you know, it can be like that. And then sometimes it's from scratch, where I'm working with the f… the actual director of the movie sometimes, you know? And, we're discussing where... You know, how we want it to be and what's gonna work best and, you know, down to the color palette or the, you know, the choices that we have on what to put in there. Sometimes they haven't had, you know... Some of the lower budget movies may not have had a photographer on board, so we just kind of have to make do with screen captures and things like that.

21:46Paul ShipperAnd, i… it's a, it's a, just a fun kind of creative process of trying to, trying to get to the point where it's like this is the right image for the movie, you know? To... And you hope that image will stay with the movie for…

22:06Jawad MirYeah

22:06Paul Shipper... For its lifetime, you know? But that seems to be happening less and less now, unfortunately. Even, like, the posters from the '80s aren't even living with the movies that are on streaming services, you know? It's like wh… why can't that just stay with that movie? I don't understand. Why you have to put a image of the actor and then…

22:33Jawad MirYeah

22:33Paul Shipper... Just the logo. I mean, it's fine. Yeah, we know, okay, yeah, that's, that's what that is, right? But th… I don't know. It just feels like a waste when there's some beautiful piece of artwork alongside it, and they just dismiss it like, "We don't need that."

22:48Jawad MirIt... Yeah, and it... I'm actually so glad you brought that up. And, you know, if you go to a Netflix... I don't know about Disney+, if they have that or not, but Netflix specifically, like they don't have the original movie posters. Forget about, you know, this type of stuff that you have worked on or drew. I'm just talking, like, generic, you know, movie posters even with photos, like The Terminal with Tom Hanks sta… standing with his bag.

23:12Jawad MirYou know, Die Hard, Bruce Willis half-faced with the building. And, like, you don't see that. And maybe because we look into it, you know, because we grew up with it, but I think those posters, if you look at the '80s posters and even some of the '90s…

23:26Jawad Mir... I mean, they were just incredible, you know? Like…... It, they just remain in your memory. Like, English Patient, you know, Schindler's List, Forrest Gump. They're just very simple posters. And they register to the movie's story and the theme and the style and all that.

23:47Paul ShipperYeah. No, that's right. I mean, some of the, you know, the... You know, like I… we... I mean, we had this conversation when you did a documentary. I think it was a documentary you were doing, and…

24:01Jawad MirYeah

24:01Paul Shipper... And you asked me to illustrate a poster for you. And you'd already kind of had something in place…

24:07Jawad MirYeah

24:07Paul Shipper... Which was a... A photograph, a photographic image from the film…

24:13Jawad MirYeah

24:13Paul Shipper... With the, you know, text, the billing and the logo and that. And I, and it, to me, that felt perfect for that movie already. And I'm like, actually, you know, for this kind of film, an illustrated poster's not gonna bring anything. It's go… it's not gonna help you. It's not gonna give an extra anything that I can see. And what you had was already doing a re… a really good job. And so, you know, I've given that advice to a few people over the years to say, "Look, I think what you've got is absolutely brilliant. You don't need me for this."

24:46Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

24:47Paul ShipperAnd some projects don't need an illustrated poster and, you know, and some projects do. And some projects it works better for, and others it's not necessary.

24:57Jawad Mir100%. And I'm so glad you said no to me, because…... Let me show you. I actually spent, this is during COVID, I spent so much time using Photoshop doing these two on my own. Right? And these are just, like, photographs, collages and…

25:18Paul ShipperYeah

25:18Jawad Mir... Just, you know, texture and all that stuff. But yeah, I'm so glad you said no to me because, I think especially for one of my projects, there was definitely de… no need for that. I can still debate maybe for one of them there might be, but still at the same time, I was glad that you said no to me. Because it kind of, you know, during COVID it was just kinda like, even though, you know, we were working on the post-production of our films, th… there's still so much time, you know?

25:44Paul ShipperYeah.

25:44Jawad MirEspecially in the early days of COVID, and you had to, you had to be super busy just to keep yourself sane. But yeah, you're right. Going back to that thing about not everything is for, you know, illustration and stuff. And, you know…

25:57Paul ShipperYeah, true things

25:57Jawad Mir... You said you worked with some of the directors. Who have you worked with directly, like not through an agency or marketing department?

26:03Paul ShipperOh, there's quite a, it's quite a list.

26:08Jawad MirTop five.

26:09Paul ShipperJeez. Well, one of, one of the ones, the memorable one for me was, Duncan Jones for Warcraft. Now, the m… the poster wasn't actually used for the,... It was gonna be used for a giveaway poster at, one of the Warcraft big meetups that they have. They have, you know, they're massive.

26:33Jawad MirRight.

26:34Paul ShipperI think it's Blizzard Entertainment. And, a BlizzCon or something like that, I don't know what it's called. But I got to speak to Duncan on the phone and we, I think he was stuck in traffic on one of the chats we had, and we were talking for about an hour. And just kinda coming up with ideas and throwing ideas around, and I was just making loads of notes. And, unfortunately it didn't get used for the giveaway poster, and then they were considering using, they were considering using the final poster for the main poster, and then that, and then it just went quiet and I didn't hear anything. But, so sometimes these projects, even though they're great fun to work on, they just don't go anywhere. And it's like, "Wow, that was, what a shame." But…

27:20Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

27:21Paul Shipper... But that was one of the memor… memorable ones. And then Duncan and I sort of kept in touch over the years, and we met up in London and, at a Warcraft screening actually, 'cause we used the poster and I think we did some prints and Duncan signed them. And I sat back next to a guy who works with, worked for ILM, who did all the, he supervised all the, animation in the movie. He's called Hal Hickel, and he was great. And so I got to make a new friend there. And it was just like, you know, it's just a good experience. Another one was Edgar Wright. So I got to work with Edgar on, well, it's actually Simon Pegg who introduced me to him indirectly.

28:09Paul Shipper'cause Simon asked me to do a, as a gift, a Christmas gift for Edgar and for the producers, a poster for The World's End. So it was just, like, a gift for, a, you know, a private gift.

28:24Jawad MirSure.

28:24Paul ShipperAnd so I was working on it. I s… I kinda knew no one was gonna see it out in public or anything. It was just, for the filmmakers. And, Edgar, when he got it on Christmas, I think he tweeted about it and shouted about it and he was very excited. And then he got to know that I did it. And so we kinda got to chatting and over a f… it's not, I mean, it's not like, "Oh, hi," you know, on the phone straight away. It's like over a course of a year, two years, whatever, you kind of end up crossing paths again. But I got to work on a poster for Edgar for his very first movie, which was a t… a 20th anniversary, re-release. It's like, it was like a student movie really. It is like his very first movie he ever made, and it was called A Fistful of Fingers. It was like a Western that was filmed in the U…

29:20Jawad MirFistful of Dollars

29:20Paul Shipper... In the United Kingdom. And it was like a comedy. It was a bit Monty Python-esque. And, so I got to, work on that which was fun. And then got to hang out with Edgar in London at the screening of that, I think, as well. But, yeah. So occasionally, you know, you get to work with some really fine people. I mean, the projects aren't always the top-end projects or whatever, but to work with them has been, you know, great fun.

29:52Jawad MirYeah.

29:52Paul ShipperTrying to think.

29:54Jawad MirHave you worked on a Spielberg project yet? I think you have.

29:58Paul ShipperYeah. I've worked on a few, Spielberg-related projects. And w… unfortunately, like… Can't really talk about it, but…

30:12Jawad MirThat's all right. No worries.

30:14Paul ShipperIt's a bit crazy, but... But yeah, recently, I mean, a lot of the work I've, I've done has been, like I did an Empire cover for the, for the Spielberg takeover issue…

30:27Jawad MirYeah

30:27Paul Shipper... Which was quite a proud…

30:29Jawad MirI saw that

30:29Paul Shipper... Proud moment of mine. And, you know, that was, it was a special moment to kind of be involved in that. And then also working with Empire Magazine is 'cause I've, I've collected that magazine since day one, from when it first came out in 1989. So actually to be working with them and then to be... I was named a visual contributing editor a few, couple years ago for the magazine.

30:58Jawad MirOh, good for you.

30:58Paul ShipperSo my name is in every issue of the magazine now. And that felt like getting an Oscar to me. You know, it's like a, it was quite a…

31:08Jawad MirThat's awesome

31:08Paul Shipper... You know, a real honor to achieve that. So, those guys are great. I always love working with Empire.

31:17Jawad MirSuper.

31:17Paul ShipperBut, movie poster-wise, I've done a few Spielberg related movies. Some of them have been unofficial. But like, Fandango asked me to do, or you know, "Do your favorite movie of all time." So I'm like, "Okay, well that's easy. That's Raiders of the Lost Ark." So I did a Raiders poster, and it was gonna go on a touring exhibition with a few other illustrators' work who had picked their favorite movies. And then, it actually was on display at San Diego Comic-Con.

31:53Jawad MirOh, cool.

31:53Paul ShipperAnd I was actually there, and Harrison Ford was there, and Harrison Ford ended up on the Fandango stage or whatever, and my artwork was there and he signed it. And I was like…

32:04Jawad MirSuper

32:05Paul Shipper... I was right there. No one, no one, could let me know, but it would've been nice if they said, "Oh, would you like it back?" Or something. But…

32:19Jawad MirYeah

32:19Paul Shipper... Not even a photocopy. So that's fine, Fandango. It's okay.

32:25Jawad MirHey, you never know, it might pop up on eBay.

32:29Paul ShipperDoubtful, but yeah. I mean, it's, to have, to have your artwork signed by the man himself like that is quite a, quite a great thing, but, yeah.

32:40Jawad MirSo who ended up getting that, Fandango or someone?

32:42Paul ShipperI don't, I don't know. I guess it's just still at Fandango headquarters. I have no idea. I should try and find out, actually.

32:49Jawad MirYeah, you should give them a call.

32:51Paul ShipperYeah.

32:53Jawad MirWhy not? What do you got to lose?

32:56Paul ShipperNothing.

32:57Jawad MirExactly.

32:58Paul ShipperYou're right. You're right.

32:59Jawad MirYeah, no, that would be super cool.

33:00Paul ShipperYeah, I'll do…

33:00Jawad MirAnd I think it would've been cooler if they had actually mentioned you on the spot when he was signing and pointed you out, and I think that would've been even super cooler.

33:10Paul ShipperThat would've been cool.

33:10Jawad MirNot for vanity purposes, but just, you know, as a fan and, being identified that, hey, I, the movie that you starred in is my favorite movie of all time.

33:22Paul ShipperCrazy. Very crazy.

33:25Jawad MirSo tell me something. When you... And I wanna learn this too, because I've always wondered, you know, like you were talking about earlier, when you look at the '80s poster, like Raiders or Empire Strikes Back and all that, you wo… you used to wonder, you know, how they did it. Like, it's oil paintings and stuff.

33:44Paul ShipperYeah.

33:44Jawad MirNow or when you started, you know… ... In the early 2000s or late '90s, how... Is there any kinda digital work involved now or back then, or is it all... Like, what's, how do you go about doing what you do?

34:03Paul ShipperWell, mostly these days it's a digital process from beginning to end. I do have my draw… I'm, just over there is my drawing board, and I also have a projector set up here on a… ... Drawing board as well. But, I still do that occasionally, but not really for the high-end projects. They're mostly all digital. So I have a, this is my Wacom drawing screen here.

34:36Paul ShipperAnd, I, you know, it's all put together with, you know, images that are supplied to me generally, or sometimes we have to fabricate things ourselves or there's stock imagery we need or, you know.

34:54Jawad MirYeah.

34:54Paul ShipperAnd then it's illustrated in Photoshop. I mean, I used to use, you know, when I was trying to figure out how to do this style in the computer, I would try, you know, first, the first thing I got was a copy of Painter, Corel Painter, and that was, that was great for a while, but then…

35:14Jawad MirI remember that.

35:15Paul ShipperYeah. But then there, it just, the workflow is just tricky and it was, it became cumbersome in the end. Became cumbersome for the... I mean, it might have changed now. I don't know if it's still going or what, but I tried, I've tried many different ways of creating this technique and this aesthetic, which is the, you know, the illustrated style that I love, to try and, keep that alive even in this day and age. So it's like, it's been, kind of a obsession and a, you know, like a, m… a mission of mine to try and keep it in the public eye, really for, because whe… I mean, I started seeing movies coming out. I'm like, "Well, that should've been an illustrated poster," or, "That should've been an illustrated for that kind of movie. It was screaming for it." Like Star Trek, J.J. Abrams Star Trek, the first one that he did, why was that not an illustrated poster?

36:16Paul ShipperWhy? It could've been.

36:19Jawad MirYeah.

36:19Paul ShipperIt should've been It should have been, but it wasn't

36:23Jawad MirSo how, so how do you define that? Like, is it genre-based or is it... Like, even without looking at a poster, if you're watching a movie, how do you get that sense that some…

36:33Paul ShipperWell, I don't, I mean, I don't know if it's just, like, my own internal barometer or something telling me things.

36:40Jawad MirYeah.

36:40Paul ShipperBut I'm like, I'm looking at it going, "That should have been that." I mean, I don't, I don't know really what the parameters are. Maybe it's,.. 'Cause some sci-fi movies don't, it wouldn't work for an illustrated poster, 'cause it… it's maybe a, it's, it's down to the stylistic kind of, the narrative, the, you know, probably the audience, the type of audience it's for would, might have an impact, I guess. I don't actually know the parameters. But inside, when I feel it, I just, I feel like... So I felt compelled to do something for Star Trek and then s… and then Into Darkness, and then, and then Simon Pegg's asked me to do the ne… the one that he wrote. He's like, he's like, "I need the next one, 'cause, like, I haven't got that one," 'cause I've, we've given him the prints of the other two that I did. And they were just... It was, there was no, it wasn't a commission or anything. It was just like, I put it out there on the internet when there was, when the movies were coming out.

37:44Paul ShipperAnd Simon Pegg loved them, and he's like, "Oh, these are great." And so I, on my schedule I have a, when I have time I'm gonna be doing the last one, the, Star Trek, Beyond.

37:59Jawad MirGood.

38:00Paul ShipperAnd…

38:00Jawad MirNo, that's, that's really good. And your… And w… did Blade Runner sequel and Dune, that wasn't illustration, right? I don't think so.

38:09Paul ShipperNo. No, they didn't go down that road. But they should have too. I think they should have. I mean, well, I mean, I worked on…

38:15Jawad MirEspecially Blade Runner.

38:17Paul ShipperI think, yeah. I mean, I did a, I did my own Blade Runner inspired poster, wh… which w… I put out on the internet just for, just for the love of Blade Runner. And then, I actually, I mean, I can probably say this, but I actually worked on a lot of, illustrations for Dune the movie, which they didn't, they didn't see the light of day. Which when I was working on them I'm like, "This is gonna be awesome. It's gonna be so good." And then they went down a totally different road in the end at the last minute.

38:50Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

38:51Paul ShipperBut that's the way it can happen. I mean, there's projects I've worked on that no one's gonna get to see. I can't even tell you what they are. But they, maybe one day they'll be seen or something, but things that, happen is, you know, minds are changed or it's just like, "Actually, we've decided that we wanna go down a different, or we're gonna go down a different road," or, "We've decided to go down a photographic route or a more graphical route," or we've gone down a whatever road it might be. And it just, it's just life. It's just life. It's just the creative process and they…

39:31Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

39:31Paul Shipper... They're doing their thing and I'm trying to infuse it with my thing, and sometimes it doesn't work.

39:38Jawad MirWell, it's kinda like similar to when you spend, like, 10 to $20 million on a scene and it never makes the film.

39:46Paul ShipperRight. It's on the cutting room floor, isn't it?

39:48Jawad MirYeah.

39:48Paul ShipperYeah.

39:49Jawad MirYeah. I mean, I think…

39:50Paul ShipperAnd…

39:50Jawad MirI think there was a case, I don't know which movie it was, they spent, like, $10 million on a scene and it never made the cut. Not even the deleted scene. I mean, $10 million.

39:58Paul ShipperYeah.

39:59Jawad MirThink about the amount of money.

40:01Paul ShipperThat's crazy, innit? It's crazy. But that's, these decisions are made, and, that's the way it goes. And, you have to, everyone has to live with it, to a point where it's like, a… even if it was, you know, somebody's favorite scene in the whole movie and it's like, we have to let it go because of whatever reason, and you have to just go, "Okay, well, hopefully the movie'll stand up on its own without that," I guess. And…

40:30Jawad MirAnd sometimes those things kind of, you realize them down the road. Like, you know, the films that I have directed, I mean, they were in, all of them, especially the last two ones that I did, there were scenes in there that I really wanted.

40:46Paul ShipperYeah.

40:46Jawad MirBut my editor, you know, suggested that it... And I was in a complete disagreement. But now looking back at it, I mean, when you watch the film with the audience, okay, yeah, that was a good move, you know?

40:57Jawad MirBecause... And I think as directors you're so attached, you know, to some things and you have to learn to let go. But then sometimes so… like, you know, Avatar, the original Avatar, for example, I was reading James Cameron's article that, interview. That scene with the, I don't know the names of the birds, where they did the whole bird sequence, like when they're flying.

41:18Jawad MirWhen he actually showed it to the executives at Fox they said, "It's too long." And, he said that was the one thing in the audience score that people loved the most.

41:30Paul ShipperRight.

41:31Jawad MirAnd he kept it and…

41:32Paul ShipperYeah

41:32Jawad Mir... You know, the rest is history.

41:33Paul ShipperWell, it's like you said, it's a balancing act, innit? You have to... A… and if he has the, I mean, i… if the people had overruled him and he had no say in it, which might have happened early in his career maybe, but not now, then they might have had their way and taken it out and nobody would've been able to enjoy that.

41:50Jawad Mir100%. And I think going back to his early career, have you ever seen the, that series Movies That Made Us with Aliens episode?

41:58Paul ShipperWhich one?

41:59Jawad MirYou know there's a series on Netflix called Movies That Made Us, so they go, kinda go behind the scenes.

42:04Paul ShipperOh, yeah.

42:05Jawad MirSo there's an episode on Aliens.

42:07Paul ShipperRight.

42:07Jawad MirThe one that he directed.

42:09Paul ShipperYeah.

42:09Jawad MirI didn't know this. You should watch it. There was actually a revolt by the entire cast or crew or both against James Cameron.

42:18Paul ShipperAh.

42:19Jawad MirLike, and it was... And the fact that he had to put up with that, and if he could deal with something like that, I think everything else kinda becomes easy afterward.

42:31Paul ShipperYeah, I think if you've been s… put in the deep end before, you see everything else is kind of easy-peasy, in comparison.

42:40Jawad MirDid you ever work on any DreamWorks project? Officially or unofficially.

42:48Paul ShipperNo, I don't think so.

42:49Jawad Mir'Cause I don't think they had anything... I think the only thing that came close to illustration was the poster of Legend of Bagger Vance with Will Smith, Matt Damon, and Charlize Theron.

42:59Paul ShipperOh, okay.

42:59Jawad MirRobert Redford directed it.

43:01Paul ShipperYeah

43:01Jawad MirThat's a film

43:02Paul Shipper... No, nothing's standing out there. I mean, I obviously would, like to. There's been times where, like, I've tried to,... Like, I've been in LA and, I don't know, I've got, you know, Steven Spielberg's, one of his, assistant's, contact details, so I'd be like, "I'm gonna be in LA. Is there any chance of popping over?" "Oh, he's, he's gonna, he's on his yacht this summer," or he's not... "He's editing on his yacht," or he's, "Oh, he's not around, he's at this and that." I just never find the moment to, actually visit Amblin. But one day, I did come very close to meeting him at a, premiere of a movie, and the producer who I was with said to me... I said, "He's, looks pretty free now. I'm gonna go over and say hi." And he said, "No, wait for the after party.

44:03Paul ShipperYou'll get more time to speak to him." So I listened to him, and then went to the after party and Spielberg didn't show up.

44:13Jawad MirSomething like that happened to me. Did you know, did you know about the War of the Worlds, set visit that I did?

44:20Paul ShipperI don't, no.

44:21Jawad MirSo, do you know that big scene where, Tom Cruise's character and his son and the fight with the robots over the hill and the military tanks and all that stuff comes in? So they were doing part of that scene in Santa Monica.

44:38Jawad MirAnd, Paramount invited, you know, a bunch of journalists, web journalists over, so I went, and I, you know, witnessed the scene, and they said, "You get to interview Spielberg." I'm like, "Bang on," you know? "Awesome." And then they're like, "Well, he's busy, and he's busy," and I kept wait… and then he's, like, gone.

44:57Paul ShipperIt just, it wasn't the right time for it.

45:00Jawad MirExactly.

45:01Paul ShipperThat's all. That's all.

45:01Jawad MirThat's, that's the way I look at it, right? But, because... No, it's true.

45:06Paul ShipperThe time will come.

45:07Jawad MirNo, because I actually genuinely believe that because, and I'll tell you, talk to you about this offline, one of the projects that I'm working on, there's a connection of DreamWorks in it. And you know, that path will probably come in due, in due time. But going back to you and your work… In terms of, you know, people who... I see now, which is really cool, I see a lot of people now doing a lot of illustration. Like, just yesterday I was on Facebook and somebody in the Steven Spielberg fan group posted these, some guy's work, of all the three Indiana Jones poster, and they were phenomenal. I don't know if they were oil paintings or digital or what, but they were amazing. And you see a lot and lot that now popping out, right? And then there's always a cycle of things in anything, whether it's media or life, and I feel, and I don't know th… what you think about it, I feel there's that element of illustrations kind of popping back in, especially with all the nostalgia films and the sequels and the remakes that are coming in.

46:17Paul ShipperOh.

46:17Jawad MirWhat, how do you see that?

46:18Paul ShipperWell, there's no, there's no doubt that the,... Look, listen, I mean, when I was, starting out, like, getting involved in my interest in movie posters as a career, like from the age of, like, 13, nobody cared about it seemed. It was like everyone thought I was nuts. Like, "You're crazy." Like, how... You know, "That's not a career."

46:43Jawad MirWhen was this? What year was this?

46:45Paul ShipperAround 1989.

46:49Jawad MirOkay. Okay.

46:50Paul ShipperYou know, I was, like, 13 years old, I think. And, yeah, it was like not many people, I mean, apart from some close friends who kind of believed that it was maybe possible. But, there didn't seem to be that many people interested in it. And it seemed to be, you know, during the '90s was fading out big time. I sent a, I sent a letter, a fax to Drew, in 19… 97, six or seven, saying, you know, if, asking for some advice into getting into the industry, and he's, like, replied saying, "What industry? It's dead. I'm the last one. The, it's gone. You're too late." And, "The computer has taken everything away." And it was kind of disheartening, but in the fax m… that he sent me, there was some scripture in there which always stuck by me, which was, you know, "If it is what you want, keep knocking and the door will be open to you."

48:00Paul ShipperAnd that, I never let that go, and that's one of the things that kept me going through this, is kind of felt so strongly about it. But, you know, Drew is like... Of all the artists whose work I admire, Drew's been the one that's been... His work has always appeared miraculous and, like, perfect for the... It's like a, it's like a state of perfection that you wanna aspire to. And, There's been times when I've come close to that. I felt it, you know? It's like, well, this is really close to being good, you know, finally. But, these days when it comes to... I mean, there's, the amount of people that wanna be a movie poster artist now is insane. The, so it's gone from nobody cares to now everybody wants to do it, and it's like, wow.

49:04Paul ShipperYou know? And I remember saying to Drew, like, "It's gonna come back. It's gonna some sort of cycle back round."

49:10Jawad MirYeah.

49:10Paul ShipperIt'll come back into fashion or, you know, because... And a… and also, it's got, there's room for everybody. There's room for an illustrated poster. There's room for a photographic poster. There's room for a graphic poster. There's room for all these... There's room for a poster with just a logo on it, if it's right for the project, you know? It's like there's all room for everybody. So the fact that it tried to die it off, kill it off, or whatever they wanted to do to it's come back with a vengeance, you know?

49:39Jawad MirYeah.

49:40Paul ShipperAnd there's more and more creative people, and young creative people getting into it, loving what they do, enjoying it, and the internet has enabled that, in a way to give an audience, a mass audience. And, you know, like the alternative movie poster scene is massive now. I mean, I'm not s… not just talking about, you know, the actual key art campaigns for movies, but these, the side kinda things that are going on with the alternative movie posters is great, too. S… there's some great, you know, talented people doing good things, and eventually they'll be, they'll be sitting where I'm sitting probably and doing actual key art projects, you know? And not just like social media campaigns, which have illustrations in it, which it's, i… personally, I find, I find when the studios are using f… fan art to promote the movies, it's a little bit like they're trying to control the fan art kinda scenario, like, you know.

50:53Paul ShipperWhereas f… to me, fan art should be an organic thing. It shouldn't be, the studios shouldn't have any control over it.

51:01Jawad MirYeah.

51:01Paul ShipperIt should just be, like, fans doing it if they love it. T… not like, "And here's the fan art we paid for," da. It should just be like, you know, like if people just feel compelled to do something. Like, I used to f… feel compelled. I still do. Like, if I see a movie and I just wanna do something, I'll just do it, you know? Like, just for fun.

51:25Jawad MirYeah.

51:25Paul ShipperYou know? And I'll put it out there. Like, Knight Rider, the 40th anniversary happened, and like, I just love Knight Rider…

51:34Jawad MirKnight Rider

51:34Paul Shipper... Of my whole life.

51:35Jawad MirOh, I remember that.

51:36Paul ShipperAnd so I'm like, I ha… I just felt compelled to do something. So I had some free time, and I did it little bit by little bit, kind of, researching photographs and trying to pick the right things that I wanted to s… showcase in what would, for me personally, what would, be an honor, an honor to put out there for Knight Rider, you know? That kinda, the feeling.

52:00Jawad MirYeah.

52:00Paul ShipperJust to, just to have the feeling of that childish…

52:02Jawad MirTo be part of it.

52:03Paul ShipperYeah.

52:03Jawad MirYou know, to be part of it.

52:04Paul ShipperOh. And that went, that went viral. You know? It's just, and that was just me doing it. No one, I didn't get paid anything to do that. It was just me for the love of it, you know?

52:14Jawad MirBut see, that goes to show when you do something, and obviously this doesn't work all the time, but when you do something outside of the realm of the finance element, you know, just because you are compelled to do it…

52:28Paul ShipperYeah

52:28Jawad Mir... Even when you're making a film, I'm, I'm not suggesting that you should make a film or do work without money. You should. But, you know, sometimes that, there is that emotional attachment… ... To a project, you know, when there is that passion and that drive behind it. And I'm so glad to see in a way that all this stuff is coming back, you know, because there's so many different avenues, like channels, you know, social media, where you can promote it.

52:56Paul ShipperOh, yeah.

52:56Jawad MirWhich kinda takes me to my next question. How does it work if you created or anybody else created something like the Knight Rider poster, right? In terms of copyright, like if you're selling it as a poster or if you are selling it as an NFT, how does that work?

53:20Paul ShipperWell…

53:20Jawad MirI know you're not a lawyer. I'm just trying to get a sense in your view and, but feel free to answer…

53:25Paul ShipperGenerally speaking, unless someone along the line has the rights to the artwork to do, to sell it as a print... So you're talking about selling prints, right?

53:39Jawad MirPrints and NFTs nowadays. I mean, those are pretty big now, too.

53:43Paul ShipperYeah. So, yeah. I mean, it's, it's g… it's generally, like there are a lot of artists that do, like, I've noticed they do, they'll do like a small run of, APs or, which are artist proofs. And that seems to be, I mean, I don't see many people getting in trouble for that. Like, you know, if you just look at what people are doing and go, "Well, they're doing that, they're doing that, they're doing that," I mean, it's not advisable to try and make, a, like an unlimited…

54:22Jawad MirLimited offer

54:22Paul Shipper... Print run or a, or like... It's a, it's a, it's a tricky subject, and I don't know all the answers, but you generally, rule of thumb would be, and it's just kind of your, you know, your s… common sense kicking in and telling you, like, if it feels wrong, generally…

54:41Jawad MirYeah

54:41Paul Shipper... You shouldn't be selling it. Like, but… I think if it's a small enough run, like say 10 or 20 prints, and you just wanna, you know, there are a few collectors out there that just love what you do, and they like, they just... You know, you get emails from people sometimes like, "Oh, are you gonna w… you know, are you gonna put that on your shop?" Or, you know. Like I've got a few things on my shop b… but they're all official, prints that have been licensed and they're available now. And then occasionally I'll, I'll do an AP run of something if people ask, you know, for them. But, it's a small run, you know. If you have like a big run and it's not licensed, then you're probably gonna... You know, there are people that are buying the licenses to sell that stuff, you know? They're putting down big money for the... Excuse me.

55:42Paul ShipperThey're paying for that license.

55:44Jawad MirOf course.

55:45Paul ShipperAnd so, you know, and if you're not paying for the license, you're potentially robbing them from them selling…

55:52Jawad MirYeah

55:52Paul Shipper... Their products. And it's like, well…

55:54Jawad MirOf course

55:55Paul Shipper... You know, a license is, I mean, depending on what it is, it could be, you know, tens of thousands of dollars.

56:00Jawad MirOh, God, yeah.

56:00Paul ShipperYou know, it's like, it's not…

56:02Jawad MirYeah

56:02Paul Shipper... You, if you, if you wanna do that, it's a big investment. So that's, that would, I mean, I'd, it's not, I haven't really given any definitive advice there to anybody.

56:14Jawad MirNo. I was just getting your point of view, and obviously you're not a legal expert, neither am I. But yeah, li… license is such a, you know, I learnt this too in one of my films. I was, because it kinda fit the story, there was a probably a need of, inserting in a sequence from Quentin Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds, like the opening sequence. And in the cut, be… before we even got license, I, you know, we put that in, and it was about 11 seconds long. And then we inquired about the license. Not only you have to get, pay the license for the film, but then you have to pay a license for the actor, the music in it, and all that. And just to use that 11 second sequence, it was $25,000. And that was it. It went out, you know?

57:01Paul ShipperYeah.

57:01Jawad MirIt never made the cut.

57:02Paul ShipperYeah, I think, and there are, I think, you know, there's a, there's probably a silent, unsaid rule or something with certain projects that you could probably get away with something like that.

57:12Jawad MirFair use.

57:12Paul ShipperYou just shh, don't say anything. But, you know, there's a, you know, like there's an un… there's a kind of an unsaid rule when it comes to, comic book artists selling some of their work at conventions. You know, like there, it's kind of a like, "Yeah, we don't, we don't, we don't wanna know. You just, you know, you did the artwork. We've used the artwork. You go ahead."

57:34Jawad MirYeah.

57:35Paul ShipperYou know? It's kind of like a, we understand it happens, and da. But, you know.

57:43Jawad MirBut it depends, right? Like, there is this thing called fair use. If you're making, if, you know, if you're making a reference to a particular thing and you're commenting on it, like on YouTube, I mean, people use it all the time. So there's a very, and it, but it depends. Like, if there's a filmmaker who is very finicky about their work a… and whatnot, they might make an issue, and rightfully so, they can.

58:06Jawad MirBut yeah, like most of the time people would be like, you know, brush it aside. That's okay. But yeah, big studio budgets like Ready Player One, you know, the amount of licenses they had to freaking inquire.

58:18Paul ShipperRight, yeah.

58:18Jawad MirYou know? Like, you know, there's a ridiculous amount of characters in there that you can't even notice no matter how many times you watch it.

58:25Paul ShipperYeah. Even if you freeze frame it, you're like...

58:28Jawad MirYeah.

58:29Paul ShipperYou know, there's some of them are just so blurry you can't even tell what they are. Like, but yeah, I mean, that's, insane how they handled that and get all of those, IPs in one place. I mean, it's like kind of a miracle in itself. That is...

58:46Jawad MirBut I think only Spielberg could have done that, right?

58:47Paul ShipperThat's what I was gonna say is like, it was one of those projects where maybe only Steven Spielberg could have pulled it off, and according to the, like, the behind the scenes is, like, he, you know, he was, like, telling them not to use much of his own IP. It's like, "No." And they were just trying to slip things in, like, without him noticing.

59:09Jawad MirYeah, there was that part of the final battle sequence. The, special effects people, they inserted in a g… gremlin in the front…

59:20Paul ShipperOh, yeah

59:20Jawad Mir... Of the frame, which he never approved. And he's like, he was watching, he's like, "Where did this come from?"

59:26Paul ShipperOh, so he spotted it?

59:28Jawad MirYeah.

59:29Paul ShipperYeah.

59:29Jawad MirYeah. Like, you did the book cover for Ready Player Two book, right?

59:33Paul ShipperI did, yeah.

59:34Jawad MirYeah. How was that experience?

59:39Paul ShipperOh, it was, it was, working with Ernie was the best. He's so cool. Like, so he had, he had,.. Obviously I had to read the book, so he s… you know, he sent me a copy, I think. Yeah. And then I read the book and, I actually have two, I've got Ready Player One and Two signed by Ernie to me, which is very nice.

1:00:03Jawad MirOh, sweet.

1:00:04Paul ShipperBut, yeah, working with Ernie was fun. He, we, he had some, ideas on kind of what he wanted. Then he's like, "You know, but it's up to you, whatever you wanna do." So I kind of, put something together and then it was kind of, they were kind of, like, okay with it from straight away, 'cause I... It had, like, a sort of dystopian kind of feel about it. It was like, n… you know, not too obvious, but it had, like, the, you know, the graphic of Wade trying to grab the artifact and... Excuse me. Sorry about that. A bit dry.

1:00:44Jawad MirNo, that's all right.

1:00:46Paul ShipperBut yeah, it was, you know, it was a, it was a great thrill working with Ernie and, you know, video chatting with him and he's in his garage and he's, like, surrounded by his, DeLoreans and…

1:01:03Jawad MirNice

1:01:03Paul Shipper... And all his movie posters on his walls and, everything else. It's just, it, I mean, what a cool... I mean, and he's like, "Any time you're in the neighborhood, come on over and, you know, you can drive one of the DeLoreans." And so I really have to take him up on that, one day when I get over there. But, yeah, what a lovely guy. I've just, I just, you know, I think the world of Ernie. I think he's great. So yeah, and then it, you know, it came out and it's a great honor to be a part of it, you know? Like, I have nothing bad to say.

1:01:37Jawad MirBut it's,.. I wasn't asking for you to say something bad, but

1:01:42Paul ShipperYeah

1:01:42Jawad MirBut it's, it's perfect for you two guys, right? Like, because that '80s connection and nostalgia and all that stuff. I mean, the type of stuff that you do. Now, I haven't read the book, and I know they're making a sequel, and I think Spielberg is gonna probably gonna executive produce it or Amblin is gonna be involved. Is it more darker than the first one? Or is it more... Like, in your view, what you felt as, just as a reader or audience member.

1:02:08Paul ShipperI think it's almost... I mean, if you're up, if you're up on any of the technology that's happening that they're planning for our future, it kinda taps into that even, 'cause it's set in our future and it's like, it does bring in some of the things that are actually being worked on at the moment, which is what's scary.

1:02:29Jawad MirAI?

1:02:30Paul ShipperBut I don't wanna go into any, too many details 'cause we might spoil the story. But, you know, there's a, there's obviously a lot of pop culture references in this one as well, and, music plays a big part in it too.

1:02:47Jawad MirIs it, is it pop culture reference still from the lot of '80s or '90s as well, or?

1:02:54Paul ShipperNo, it's still, it's still '80s, but one of the... Well, I mean, one of the, a fairly large part is to do with, Prince, the music of Prince. So, like, on the cover, on the cover of the book w… there's sort of, like, a Purple Rain thing going on. Like, it's kind of like…

1:03:16Jawad MirYes

1:03:16Paul Shipper... A little kinda nod to that in the, without going too far there. It's sort of there on the cover. And so when you read it, hopefully you look at the cover and go, "Oh, okay." so you know, and it... But yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely, the scary thing is it feels like, especially the way things are going, it could actually become, like, a, like, a 1984 kinda book where it's like, oh, those things are actually starting to happen now, you know?

1:03:51Jawad MirWell, yeah. I mean, you look at now…

1:03:53Paul ShipperBig brother watching you and everything, and then, and then, going on to, like, the technology that, like, people like Elon Musk is working on at the moment, which

1:04:07Jawad MirOh, the chip? The human…

1:04:08Paul ShipperYeah. Like the, you know, the transhuman kind of thing.

1:04:13Jawad MirYeah.

1:04:13Paul ShipperSo it's kind of part of that's tied into the book, which, you know, it makes it feel even more like it could really happen, you know? The thing that's in the book could actually be a thing.

1:04:29Jawad MirWell, you look at now, I mean, you've obviously you've heard of all these new AI technologies, right? ChatGPT and Open Dot, and I think Copy.ai or something, and a bunch of others. And the way... Have you ever used ChatGPT?

1:04:44Paul ShipperIs this the AI gen… the generation thing where you can…

1:04:47Jawad MirYeah. So basically you…

1:04:48Paul Shipper... Just, like, type in a couple of words and then it, like, makes a piece of art?

1:04:52Jawad MirYeah. So I tested it. I mean, I, you can do anything. Like, you can do recipes, you can do storytelling. I a… I wrote a sentence and I said, "Can you write me a story about a fisherman in a fishing village?" That's it.

1:05:05Paul ShipperYeah.

1:05:05Jawad MirAnd it came with one page treatment in about nine and a half seconds. Now, it wasn't groundbreaking, you know? But it was still structured in a way, like, a proper story, like, an act one, act two, and act three. But yeah. M… what I was gonna say was in terms of, technology and the big brother and AI and all that, I mean, it, yeah, like you said, it's, it's, it is already happening, and I think we're already living in it if you look at internet. I mean, you know, anybody can pull up our searches.

1:05:38Paul ShipperYeah. No, true, yeah. The AI stuff, I mean, I, that, it felt like that was starting to happen with some... Like, I noticed some movie posters. Like, 'cause I always look at movie posters that are out there or even artwork that people are doing regarding the movie posters, and there's definitely some art that feels like it's just a photographic composition that a f… a filter has been applied to it. And that, I find that offensive, just because, well, I mean

1:06:21Jawad MirThe, and that, you know what? That filter stuff happened a lot. I mean, it's still happening in photography. It happened quite a bit in the video and the f… side of things, between 2010 and 2016, '17, because of all these plug-ins that came in, like, you know, to give it, like, a softer look or sh… all that stuff.

1:06:40Paul ShipperYeah.

1:06:40Jawad MirAnd n… but now that's changing because at least in the world that I am in, color correction's the way to go, you know? Like, that's, that's the natural thing, that you manipulate just, you know, colors in there. But…

1:06:52Jawad Mir... Filters are just, yeah, it just ruins the…... The taste of what you're trying to do

1:07:01Paul ShipperYeah. Yeah. It w… and the, it feels like it was the start of the AI kind of image generation software of, in some way. Because it were like, "Well, what style do you want it in?" It's like, "Well, can you do this one that so it looks like van Gogh painted it?" And then it goes van Gogh, and it's like, okay. It's not very good. I mean, I'll be honest, it's a bit average. But now…

1:07:30Jawad MirBut it'll get better over time

1:07:31Paul Shipper... Yeah, well now, like I've seen some stuff, I'm like, you know, someone just write, you know, action star or, you know, even yourself, you can put yourself in it, can't you? You can put yourself in it. You can tell it what you want i… in the style of whatever, and some of the results are very good, and it's quite scary to think a computer just kinda within some kinda neural engine, which has been learning, I guess it's been learning from everyone on the internet. So if you upload anything, it's somehow being cataloged in some way and kind of indexed in a way so that whenever anyone wants to generate something, it taps into those things…

1:08:23Jawad MirYeah

1:08:23Paul Shipper... And then comes up with something. And honestly, I mean, I love technology and it's f… and it's very clever. I mean, I think for a starting point it'd be a great little, you know, starting point. But for f… at the moment, for a finished piece of art, I would say, and for what I do, I don't think it could do it. But…

1:08:44Jawad MirNo, I think there's always gonna be room for, you know, the real arts, you know? It's just like you mentioned about when Drew said that what I do is dead.

1:08:53Paul ShipperYeah.

1:08:53Jawad MirBut it came... You know, it, anytime technology advances, you know, even like in terms of AI, everybody says people go, are gonna go out of jobs. Yeah, people might go out of certain jobs, but there will be other jobs that will make up for those jobs. But…

1:09:08Paul ShipperYeah

1:09:08Jawad Mir... You know, I was gonna say something and I just lost my train of my thought, but i… in terms of technology, have you seen, oh yeah, you know, with the whole thing with the deep fake, right? We're kind of going off topic here. I'm just gonna wanna make one last point. But the deep fake thing, I was just reading this a few days ago. Microsoft has this technology that can listen to anybody's voice for three second and make your version of it, your voice come back and say whatever the heck they want.

1:09:40Paul ShipperI think I saw that, and they type it in, don't they? They ty… is it like they type it in and it speaks?

1:09:45Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. But it needs to listen to you f… your original voice for three seconds to grasp that. I mean, imagine, you know, going to Big Brother and going back to Ready Player One. You can be out there on the internet with a deep fake of your…

1:10:01Paul ShipperYeah

1:10:01Jawad Mir... Face and your audio saying something that you shouldn't be saying.

1:10:05Paul ShipperThat you shouldn't say. Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:08Jawad MirInsane.

1:10:09Paul ShipperThat is a scary thing.

1:10:10Jawad MirWell…

1:10:11Paul ShipperI, and that's, you know, it's a technology that if it was in the wrong hands, could do some real damage, I think. And, it's a sc… a scary thought, but also like, you know, you look at movies where they can de-age actors now and, you know.

1:10:32Jawad MirThey're, they're doing that with the upcoming Indiana Jones.

1:10:33Paul ShipperYeah, exactly. I mean, that, and that's effect… when it's done right, effectively, very good. I wanna see more Adventures of Indiana Jones in that time period. I mean, it's like that's the, you know, fighting the Nazis and all that kinda stuff. It's great. But, and I actually had a conversation with someone at, it was at a part, okay. I thought it was like a get together of like writers and creative people at San Diego Comic-Con. And, they were s… they were into special effects, and we were talking about the Solo movie and, you know, I really enjoyed that movie. I was, you know, I was like…

1:11:26Jawad MirGood

1:11:27Paul Shipper... I don't know how they're gonna do that, you know? But…

1:11:29Jawad MirYeah

1:11:29Paul Shipper... But somehow it worked and the main lead was, did a pretty good job. But when you see the deep fake version that somebody did and they put Harrison Ford's face on the actor, it just, it just made a big world of difference. To…

1:11:46Jawad MirSomebody actually did that? I didn't know.

1:11:48Paul ShipperYeah. Well, not to the whole movie, but for a certain scene…

1:11:51Jawad MirLike a scene

1:11:52Paul Shipper... Of the movie. And for f… you know, it was a semi-professional looking job. I mean, it kinda worked, especially certain parts of it. And if you had a guy who was doing a spot on impersonation of Harrison Ford's voice, or you had Harrison Ford doing the voice, it would've just been absolutely the best thing ever to see a young Han Solo. 'cause that guy, that actor, who i… is a spitting image of…

1:12:26Jawad MirI know who you're talking about. I don't know his name

1:12:28Paul Shipper... I'm ta… An… Anthony Gruber, I think his name is.

1:12:32Jawad MirOkay.

1:12:33Paul ShipperAnd he, I saw him on something and he actually played a young Harrison Ford in a movie called Age of Adaline, and it's like they were in the same movie together.

1:12:45Jawad MirOh.

1:12:45Paul ShipperNot together, but he played…

1:12:46Jawad MirYeah

1:12:47Paul Shipper... A young Harrison Ford. And I'm like, how is this guy not like being picked up to be the next, you know, the next Han Solo if they're gonna go, you know, early Han Solo or a young Indiana Jones or how is this guy... 'Cause it's like seeing… Harrison Ford from Force X from Navarone. I, he's obviously, he's got a bit older now.

1:13:13Jawad MirYeah.

1:13:13Paul ShipperBut it's like he's gonna look like Harrison Ford was, for Raiders of the Lost Ark, for sure. Like, I mean, it's like... And he can do, he can do all the mannerisms, and he can do... You don't need deep fake with this guy. It's like he's, he's perfect.

1:13:30Jawad MirBut, you know, I find nowadays especially everything has become so political, you know? You know, and there's so many, you know, with the... I don't know the details at Lucasfilm and stuff, but obviously with the Star Wars fiasco and the new trilogy and, you know, even Indiana Jones, like Spielberg was supposed to originally direct it.

1:13:52Jawad MirAnd then he backed out and now he's the executive producer. I just feel like there's just so much politics and so much bureaucracy now in Hollywood than ever before that even if what you're saying could be true in a lot of people's eyes, but it just may not work out on the grand scale of things from a business…

1:14:10Paul ShipperYeah, that's right. I mean, I don't know the ins and outs, but just on the surface level…

1:14:15Jawad MirYeah

1:14:15Paul Shipper... Kind of as a, you know, as a fan of all things George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, to see somebody who can kind of like you feel like they could pull it off, you know? It's like…

1:14:29Jawad MirYeah

1:14:29Paul Shipper... How... But the, like you say, there's, there might be something behind the scenes we just don't know about. But the fact that we've seen him out there and he can do it just e… it's exciting to me to think he co… it could be a thing, but, the d… the

1:14:47Jawad MirI got to see that now

1:14:47Paul Shipper... The deep fake technology in the new movie, according while looking at the trailer, seems quite good, so.

1:14:53Jawad MirYeah. I'm gonna end this on two notes. One…... You've seen Land Before Time.

1:15:03Paul ShipperI, no, I haven't actually.

1:15:04Jawad MirYou have not seen Land Before Time?

1:15:06Paul ShipperNo, I, my fiancee keeps telling me I should watch it 'cause she got all the VHS of all of those movies.

1:15:11Jawad MirYou se… well, it's Lucas and Spielberg.

1:15:14Paul ShipperYeah, I know. I…

1:15:15Jawad MirAnd Don…

1:15:15Paul ShipperPlus I can't…

1:15:15Jawad MirDon Bluth.

1:15:16Paul ShipperSure. I don't... Look, I get this all the time. Like, "You've not seen that movie?" I'm like, "How can I possibly see every movie?" Like, I…

1:15:24Jawad MirNo, I know.

1:15:25Paul ShipperYou know, like growing up, I had... I avoided a lot of horror movies 'cause it, I didn't like them.

1:15:31Jawad MirYeah, same.

1:15:31Paul ShipperI avoided a lot of, diff… there was certain genres of movie I also avoided. And some of the kids cartoon movies, I avoided them. Like, I only just watched An Amer… I only just watched Fievel Goes West. Only just. I'm getting there, but it's like…

1:15:50Jawad MirBut…

1:15:51Paul Shipper... I, there's a lot of stuff.

1:15:53Jawad MirThe reason, the reason I asked you actually wasn't to, you know, put you in a corner or a spot.

1:15:57Paul ShipperI know. I know.

1:15:59Jawad MirBut maybe you should do... I guess you have to see the film…

1:16:02Paul ShipperYeah

1:16:02Jawad Mir... First. Do an illustration of that. Because even the cover of the VHS, I think I have the tape here somewhere. Do I? No, I don't have it here with me right now. But yeah, even the cover, I mean, that's obviously it's animation, but it looks like an illustration, right? Like them going on this mountain, climbing up, and with the distant background you see a T-Rex and…

1:16:25Paul ShipperAh.

1:16:25Jawad MirAnyway, it's just, that's food for thought. I'm just making, go…

1:16:29Paul ShipperMaybe, is there an anniversary coming up? Maybe we could do something special for it, you know.

1:16:35Jawad MirCame out in '89, so yeah, you have 35th anniversary next year.

1:16:39Paul ShipperThere you go.

1:16:39Jawad MirThere you go.

1:16:40Paul ShipperMaybe we can work on that together.

1:16:44Jawad MirOh, no, I'm okay. I don't know how to draw, dude. I don't know.

1:16:49Paul ShipperNo, you could like, you know, you could be art director, you know…... Like kind of the conceiver of the project and, you know, maybe you could experience trying to get a license to do a few prints of that or something as an anniversary piece.

1:17:05Jawad MirSure. Sure.

1:17:05Paul ShipperI don't know.

1:17:06Jawad MirLet's, le… let's, let's link, let's work on that down the road for sure. Awesome, man.

1:17:11Paul ShipperIf it's possible.

1:17:11Jawad MirThis has been, great. I hope you enjoyed the time and conversing and

1:17:15Paul ShipperOh, no, it's good to see you. You know, this has been a, you know, it's been a while, so it's been good to see you, good to chat.

1:17:22Jawad MirYeah, man. Pleasure is all mine. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Looking forward to more of your work as always.

1:17:28Paul ShipperAnd yours.

1:17:29Jawad MirAnd, you know, I sh… I occasionally travel to London. I was in London quite a bit in the last few months, and if I do come again, which might happen, I'll give you a shout and maybe we can hook up.

1:17:40Paul ShipperYeah. No, we'll try and do that for sure.

1:17:43Jawad MirPerfect, man.

1:17:44Paul ShipperAll right.

1:17:44Jawad MirNice chatting with you guys.

1:17:46Paul ShipperAll the best.

1:17:46Jawad MirYou have a great day, man.

1:17:48Paul ShipperYeah, you too. Bye.