'The Brothers Sun', Editor, Mark Strand

0:09Mark StrandI've been really well, thank you. Yeah, obviously the strike, we took 10 months off or whatever it's been, but I just started on a new show this past week, so everything's looking up.

0:18Jawad MirThat's awesome. That's awesome. But which kind of brings me to the point of Brothers. So in the project that you worked on, that finished, earlier last year before the strike, I'm assuming the post-production, right? Or...

0:29Mark StrandYeah, I mean, it's, it, o… I think, the strike started in May or something, and I think I s… I might've stayed until April or something like that. But we had, we had the lion's share of the work done. Obviously, there was no shooting after the strike started. We had finished…

0:41Jawad MirYeah

0:41Mark Strand... All the shooting.

0:43Jawad MirYeah, wonderful. What are you working on now? Unless it's, not supposed to be revealed.

0:47Mark StrandNo, it's fine. I worked a lot, on and off with John Wells, and I'm working on a new John Wells show. It's for, MGM+. It's called Emperor of Ocean Park.

0:58Jawad MirOkay

0:58Mark Strand... It's been, it's, it's got Forest Whitaker. It's gonna be great.

1:02Jawad MirOh, great. I love Forest Whitaker. I think he's a…

1:05Mark StrandYeah

1:05Jawad Mir... Great actor.

1:06Mark StrandHe is.

1:06Jawad MirWonderful. Well, you know, I spoke to Kim, about…

1:12Mark StrandMiles

1:12Jawad Mir... Coup… yeah, Kim Miles a couple of weeks ago. I spoke to him once before too, about his work on Welcome to Marvin with Robert Zemeckis. But yeah, we spoke, just, I think just before Christmas, and, I had a great time watching the series. And, you know, something that I really enjoyed was, and again, it's the, you know, in editing and cutting, it's all about, cutting without knowing that there's a cut, invisible editing.

1:42Mark StrandYeah.

1:42Jawad MirAnd there was a, and there was a lot of that in this series, so I wanted to kudos, give you kudos on that it, there was a lot of elements that I, you know, didn't even... I got so involved in characters, obviously that's a credit to writing as well, that you forget about all those nitty-gritty cuts and stuff and, a… and…

1:57Mark StrandYeah

1:57Jawad Mir... You enjoy it way more.

2:00Mark StrandYeah. Well, that's, that's great to hear. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, the, that's always my goal, you know, is to be... Well, I mean, it's to propel story, and so a… as much as that allows me to just sort of hide edits and make us, you connect to the characters and move with the characters, that's, the most important thing. And then of course with fighting, it's so, I listened to your interview with Kim and…

2:25Jawad MirOh, okay

2:25Mark Strand... You know, it's really nice to hear when people are sort of appreciating the filmmaking for, w… you know, some stuff that's actually very hard to do, like staying wide in fights, like, scenes and trying to make it feel like you're in the room with them and, while at the same time ratcheting up the tension and making those, the impacts be, really be felt. So, that was nice to hear.

2:50Jawad MirYeah, no, and I, again, I don't know if I mentioned this in the conversation I had with Kim. I know I say it a lot of times here and there, but I lose track who I've said this to.

2:58Mark StrandOf course.

2:59Jawad MirOne thing that I, one thing I feel like it's kinda coming back, a… aside from this, you know, the practical effects which the audience is appreciating more than the CGI, like that's a big…

3:08Mark StrandSure

3:09Jawad Mir... Conversation now. I think it's also the, I don't know if p… the audiences know that, but, I mean, me, myself, being in the industry, I notice it and I appreciate it more, the element of, the i… the idea of wider shots, which you mentioned, where you just feel that everything is authentic. You know? And a lot of, I think one of the worst examples, I, there's, I'm a huge fan of the original Predator movie. Obviously, a lot of people are. Arnold Schwarzenegger one. They made a…

3:37Mark StrandYeah

3:38Jawad Mir... Recent, not the last one, not Prey, the one after that. They've made some version, and it was garbage. The movie was absolutely terrible, but one of the things that they did in that was really bad was too many close-ups and way too many cuts. I had no idea what the hell was going on. Like, you don't even feel…

3:54Mark StrandYeah

3:54Jawad Mir... For anybody.

3:55Mark StrandYeah.

3:55Jawad MirBut now I think that's coming back, and your show is one of those examples, you know, that is kind of bringing that back slowly, and I think people are appreciating it way more.

4:05Mark StrandYeah. I hope so. You know, I mean, certainly filmmakers, the, on the production side and editorial, I'm finding that, the showrunners and even the networks are responding to that in a way that maybe in the past, you know... Generally, it's the networks that are pushing you towards closer and closer and closer. They're concerned about people looking down at their iPad, maybe missing what's going on and, but I'm finding that, I'm getting, I've always pushed wider, and I'm getting the note less to climb in, so that's great.

4:41Jawad MirGood. Good. I'm gonna come back to the series, in a bit. I wanna always go back and find out about the journey everybody goes through to be where they are today, right? And…

4:50Mark StrandSure

4:50Jawad Mir... Before you start even talking about that, the very first thing that if you can remember, what was the catalyst in you coming in this direction of storytelling? Whether it was another w… department or not, what began all this journey?

5:09Mark StrandThat's a great question. I, you know, it's, I… I've always, I've always liked the... You know, I was a math major and an English major in college, and so it, y… you can sort of almo… almost immediately see my resume saying, "Oh, editing sounds great for you," you know? I did go to film school, and I had a great editing professor, and at the time, I probably, if you were to ask me that day, I probably would've said, "Oh, I, my prefer… my preferred role is to be a director." And, I've directed stuff and I've been able to got, get opportunities directing television, shows I've worked on. And I really do enjoy it. But I also feel perfectly at home and, it, really feel connected to the editorial work, and it's incredibly satisfying to me even after 25 years. I've been able to move between documentaries and, news and, reality television and scripted television. So, and I've enjoyed all of it. So, that's a real testament to my love of actually making cuts and crafting a story, in that way.

6:15Mark StrandAnd so I, the way I got started is that I had a terrific editing professor at school, and he put his arm around me and said, "Hey, man, come in the edit bay. Be my assistant. You know, come sit at the end of my desk and just watch me interact with producers. See how I do this." And o… one of the producers was sort of, like, self-conscious, and she was looking around, and she was like, "Do you, do you really get a lot out of being in the room when it's just us?" And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, absolutely." So she was, she was great, too. You know, you need to have everyone sort of be on board. You know, I think that, if she were to have her druthers, I wouldn't have been there, you know? And so, and I was so lucky that I was able to stay in that room and get a sense of it, and so that when he was able to throw some work my way, and other producers would ask him, "Who could... Hey, who... You got a young guy who could help?" And so, I think three years he kept me alive, just throwing me work on the side.

7:14Jawad MirWow.

7:14Mark StrandAnd that really got me started, and that was in Boston and at a network called WGBH, which does a lot of the, a lot of the… ... Natural… national PBS stuff. So I got my... I cut my teeth there.

7:29Jawad MirWow, that's incredible. It's good to have someone backing you like that, and…

7:32Mark StrandYeah

7:32Jawad Mir... Obviously, you know, there's a lot of effort involved on your part to be able to sustain that 'cause some people may not be able to. But nevertheless, just having that backup is really important. And one thing you talked about, editing and directing, I... You know, they go hand in hand. It's funny because I enjoyed both, but I think I'm at that point now in my life where I... Right now in that stage where I prefer directing over editing.

7:57Mark StrandYeah.

7:57Jawad MirAnd I think that… ... A lot of it has to do with your personality, too. You know?

8:01Mark StrandYeah.

8:01Jawad MirBecause one of is… one of them is an introvert job, and the other one is an extrovert job. Like, essentially, that's what it is.

8:06Mark StrandYeah.

8:07Jawad MirAnd sometimes you like to feel like an homebody. But the thing is they both go hand in hand because w… if you know how to edit and you're directing, you know what to get. And then if…

8:15Mark StrandYeah

8:16Jawad Mir... You know, the other way around works the same way.

8:19Mark StrandYeah

8:19Jawad Mir... What... Is there an example where you realized that very quickly that they go hand in hand? Because the film is written in three differents places, right? The writing, directing, and editing.

8:31Mark StrandSure. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, especially in reality television when I was, you know... I, a… after being in Boston, I moved down to New York and started cutting,.. At the time, it was called, like, ride-along shows, and they'd be like doctor shows, and you'd be in the ambulance with the people. And you just, you had to just take the reins, as you know, as a documentary filmmaker. You know, you just have to take the reins in editing, and you really are crafting the story in the bay. And so that was a h… that was, that was such a... That really, like, strengthened my storytelling, my specifically storytelling, skills. And so... And that was also one of the things that was so rewarding. So like I said, like, in s… in school, I, you know, I was like, "Oh, yeah, I definitely wanna direct." And so I really felt like I was, I was really such a part of both aspects of filmmaking in the edit bay, that I was getting both my how am I gonna craft this, what are my storytelling... Like, how am I gonna cut my teeth with my storytelling ideas and g… you know, turning around and saying, "Hey, do we have stuff like this that we could sort of help this, story point?"

9:34Mark StrandAnd, "Do we have stuff like that?" and, "Hey, could we get some stock footage that might do this?" and so it was really, you know, in those formative years of first just becoming a professional editor, also being give... You know, back then, excuse me, back then with the, with it, reality TV in its infancy, they really just... They would just drop footage on editors and just pray that stuff would come out i… as broadcast-looking stuff. And so if you could do that, and I could, you know, you... They just opened doors for you. They'd be like, "Yeah, great. Let's, let's edit him. Let's just throw him some more footage. Let's throw him some more footage." And when you wanna prove yourself, that's... There's nothing better than that, than being able to…

10:16Jawad MirYeah

10:16Mark Strand... Get that opportunity and then, and be able to do it quickly. Like, you do it. You press play. Someone walks in the room, sits down. You press play, and they're like, "Ah, that's great," you know? And that's that instant feedback as well. So, yeah, I mean, that was... That's, that's really where I got excited about it.

10:35Jawad MirThat's so cool, man. You know, on this project, that you got in, that you gone, got on, how did you get onto this project? Like, was it through connections, or was it just a application? Like, what was the process…

10:49Mark StrandYeah, sure

10:50Jawad Mir... Of you getting onto this project?

10:51Mark StrandWell, I had the great luxury of having gone to high school with, the showrunner, and, that's one of the, that's one of the easy... If you wanna get a job in Hollywood, that's one of the best ways to do it. But Brad Falchuk and I went to high school together, so we've known each other since we were 15. And we even worked together, 10 years ago on a show called Nip/Tuck, which was for FX, and…

11:12Mark Strand... He was a writer on that show. And he introduced me to Ryan Murphy, who was the showrunner of that show, and Ryan Murphy hired me. And, so I cut on that show for a few seasons. And so we worked together on the same show, and then I went on to, you know, have my career, moving around and with many other showrunners, and he went on with Ryan Murphy and created all sorts of television shows that, you know, are all over the place. And then this was his first show. He and Ryan,.. Brad has gone on to move on to just make shows for himself. And so…

11:45Mark Strand... This is Brad's first show. And so I was having dinner with him, and we were talking about it, and I was... I just let him know that I really wanted to help, you know, support him in, i… any way I can. And so he, you know, we... I got on the show with him, and, I met Byron, and it went from there.

12:03Jawad MirThat's so cool, man. And, you know, when you, when you got onto this show, was there any kind of... I mean, you've done Nip/Tuck, which was, you know, a very popular show, and it was... It ran for a lot of season. It was a great series. I think I've seen a couple of seasons. But this was something different, right? It's, it's, it just has a different tone to it, which you obviously probably felt, too. But how... Was it something challenging in terms of dealing with something different of this nature, or had you done something similar before?

12:38Mark StrandOh, well, I mean, you know, what's... I, you know, I've been really lucky, you know? So I've, I've cut, comedy dramas like Shameless for Showtime, and so that does that, where you sort of are trying to move quickly between really heartfelt drama and really zany comedy. So I had done at that aspect before. I had worked on action shows before. I worked on a show called Animal Kingdom for TNT and…

13:01Mark Strand... The Last Ship also for TNT, which were sort of, like, heavy testosterone action shows. And so I'd cut a lot of, I'd cut a lot of action. I'd cut a lot of comedy. I cut a lot of drama. And so moving into this world where we were trying to meld the three, was really exciting, and it's one of the reasons why this was such an, which, such an exciting project to get to be a part of because, one, it's martial arts, and that's like, that's a different type of action.

13:28Jawad MirAction, yeah.

13:28Mark StrandAnd it's just so intimate, and it is so much fun. And then to try to add a... And, the stunt coordinator did such a great job of adding sort of comedy in it. You know, I even heard Kim speaking with you about it, just sort of trying to the Jackie Chan sort of comedy in amongst the intense physicality, and so being able to try to make sure that we maintain that tone as well. And then you are taking really hard turns. I mean, there's a lot... There's a huge body count, you know? And that's, and that's... So it's hard to balance the big body count with the light comedy as well. And so the, all those challenges are what make cutting something like this really exciting.

14:09Jawad MirYeah. There are certain movies that I see and certain soundtracks that I listen to before I start a new project. Was there any particular project that you saw just to kinda get into that vibe, that environment?

14:24Mark StrandYeah. Well, I mean, you, again, I mean, not to keep referring to the other interview, but, you know, you nailed it when you said you watched it and you were like, "Oh, this, I'm feeling, I'm feeling Kill Bill vibes." You know what I mean? And there's…

14:36Jawad MirYeah

14:36Mark Strand... Like, no one does intense, extreme violence with comedy like Tarantino.

14:44Jawad MirYeah.

14:44Mark StrandAnd he... And also, I'm, I'm, I'm 50-ish years old. You can't not be my age and not be, inspired by Quentin Tarantino's work. And so obviously those, and even, you know, the Scorsese of it all as well. Like, you know, we did a lot to maintain that tone. This is an Asian American story. This is a, but it is not scored exclusively in that tone and in that vein. So we took world music, we took songs from everywhere, tones from everywhere to put in amongst this story in a very Tarantino, Scorsese musical way. Angela Assisto was great. She gave us this big playlist at the very beginning of it all. And hours of music to listen to that put you in the vibe of sort of bubblegum pop, Asian culture. But at the same time, it was also, you know, sprinkled in with all sorts of other stuff from all over the world, which was a lot of fun.

15:47Mark StrandSo I think that was sort of tonally where we were all coming from, and I think that's where Byron and Brad wanted, always wanted to be.

15:55Jawad MirYeah. No, that's, that's so, that's so, good that you guys did that because, like, I mean, like, we've talked about this before, like, it was just... It just had an '80s and '90s vibe, but, you know, awesome stuff, man. And, you know, when you're editing something like this or anything for that matter, there's always challenges that you come. And, like, there's always a scene where, or maybe more than one time, a scene where you're like, "Okay, I don't know how to do this." As in, like, you don't know, but how should I do it? Like, should I do it this way or that way? And sometimes there's, you know, the heads that butt around between the director and editor for the sake of a better product or better film or series. Was any event like that occurred where you guys had sort of dis… creative disagreement, and how you overcame that?

16:39Mark StrandYeah, you know, I... It's so funny. It was such a collaborative and, communal experience. You know, so I work with my assistant, Shannon Lynch. There was another team, Ryan Chan and, Allison Chang, and Evita Zhu and, Dora Wu. And so having not only, like, them... E… every time we'd have a full cut, we'd invite all the other editorial teams in, and watch the show together. And, you know, you just get there, and you sit there, and you'd be watching Dora watch this bit, or you'd be watching Ryan watch this bit, and you would just see how they were responding to it, and then we'd all have that conversation. You'd start asking them about, "What were you thinking about this? What were you thinking about that?" And so, and then you get to the directors, and then you get to your producers, and everybody was just all, we were all just rowing in the same direction, just trying to make it more interesting, more fun, and make sure that the story was clear, you know? And so that was...

17:39Mark StrandSo was there... I don't think there was ever a point, even with, even if we had disagreements, you know, if I had one feeling and Kevin, the director, had another feeling, it would always just, it would just be like, "Well, which one's cooler? Which one's more fun? How could we make this…"

17:55Jawad MirYeah

17:55Mark Strand... "Well, what if we did it this way?" And it was always that was the dance that everyone was doing in the entire team. So it was just a lot of fun.

18:02Jawad MirAnd I think that shows in the series because you feel that, you know, when you…

18:05Mark StrandOh, good

18:06Jawad Mir... You know, that i… in any kind of project, doesn't have to be in the, in the film world or series world, when things work together collaboratively in a team, the, it shows. When things don't, that shows as well.

18:19Mark StrandYeah.

18:19Jawad MirAnd this one did show there was that collaborative effort, even with the characters, right? Like, everybody was sort of had their own thing that they were bringing into the show.

18:27Mark StrandYeah. Yeah, we were really lucky. So, you know, especially coming out of, coming out of COVID, you know, it was important to Kevin to have us... He was the executive producer as well as the director of many, not all, but many of the episodes. And he asked that the editorial team be on the lot. So we were on the same lot where they were shooting. And they did shoot sort of 50/50 or maybe 60/40 off the lot as well as on, but it allowed us to be around. We would have lunch with the crew. We would swing by set. Kim was always welcoming us down to set and excited to see us come sit down, and we would either be talking about some scene we just cut or do we have a piece that might do this or asking about what was being shot for the day, and having lunch with the actors and having lunch with the s… with the, stunt group, seeing them f… practice the fights in their... In, they had this, a rehearsal hall. So that all of that, it just made everyone feel a part of everything, and it gave everyone the ownership.

19:28Mark StrandEveryone felt ownership of the entire series. So especially bec… you know, not, let alone the fact that it was multilingual and I only speak one language, you know? So I had to rely on Mo Lin Liu, who was our post PA, who is from China. And so I would cut a scene and just invite him in and say, "Hey, man. W… c… do you understand what they're saying?" So, like, I wouldn't know what they were saying. I'd be like, "How does this work?" And he would watch, and he'd be like, "That's very good, but she doesn't say that line very well." And I'd be like, "Oh, really?" He's like, "No." And I'd play the other takes, and he'd be like, "That one's good." And so I would put that one in. And so everybody, top to bottom, were, had a voice and were welcomed into the edit bay and onto, like I said, onto set and e… everywhere to contribute to the project.

20:15Jawad MirYou know, it's funny you mention that. Almost everybody that I've spoken to in the last year, whether it's, especially editors like, Richard Francis, who's done Shawshank Redemption and Green Mile.

20:27Mark StrandYeah.

20:27Jawad MirAnd, I'm just kind of escaping the names right now, but pretty much everybody who said, who's, the film that we were talking about that made a lot of, critical buzz or commercial buzz or both specifically had the same kind of setup where the editors were on the location.

20:47Mark StrandOh, that's interesting.

20:48Jawad MirAnd that creates, that creates such a team environment. Like you said, the key word is ownership. Like, you feel…

20:53Mark StrandYeah

20:53Jawad Mir... Like you're a part of this project as opposed to, "Oh, here's the footage," you know?

20:57Mark StrandYeah.

20:58Jawad MirAnd then you go in your room and you start. There's not that connection. You don't even know who these people are. You don't know what's going on. You're just in the room and editing with your team, and that's it.

21:06Mark StrandYeah.

21:06Jawad MirSo that, I think that is a big thing, and I, a… and I, probably, again, one of the few things, reasons that this worked…

21:13Mark StrandYeah

21:13Jawad Mir... Among many other.

21:14Mark StrandYeah. Yeah, and I'm, I fully believe that. And the cast, the cast themselves, you could just witness it. You could see that all of them had that same bond, you know? Always open arms with everyone else and always within their own d… in their own departments also being really connected. So, yeah, it was, it's definitely special for that reason, for sure.

21:37Jawad MirYeah. What was something that you enjoyed cutting? Just that…

21:41Mark StrandThe fight scenes. I mean, period, answer.

21:43Jawad MirFight…

21:43Mark StrandWell, listen, obviously, favorite scene, Michelle Yeoh, Justin Chien, their first s… seeing each other after 20 years or 30 years. That was just so exciting to cut. That was the first cut, that was the first scene I cut with Michelle, and you're just like, "Ah. I mean, are you kidding me? This is fantastic." And so I loved cutting that, and I think the same day, I got that kitchen, the kitchen fight scene with the giant.

22:13Mark StrandAnd so I was cutting, I was cutting fun action. I was, I was cutting Michelle Yeoh. I was cutting d… drama. I was cutting emotion. There was comedy in there. And so that was... I mean, that's the one that just literally just jumps right to my head, you know?

22:28Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, Michelle Yeoh was incredible. I mean, she looks exactly the same Michelle Yeoh as I saw in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

22:35Mark StrandShe's so good, yeah.

22:35Jawad MirWhat was it, what, 25 years ago almost?

22:37Mark StrandMore probably. Yeah.

22:39Jawad MirYeah. And, you know, the, her, there's that scene of her where, I'm really bad with characters' name, but when she is kinda held captive and she just does not budge. She does not give any kind of weakness away, and I think that performance of her in that scene was absolutely remarkable.

22:56Mark StrandYeah. She was great. You know, so like I said, there was three, there was three teams. There was Evita, Ryan, and myself were the three editors on the show, and we each got a great Michelle scene to cut it… out of the multitude of episodes. And it was just, I mean, all of us were so excited every time we got to work on her stuff, so she's, she's just fantastic.

23:18Jawad MirYeah.

23:18Mark StrandAnd so sweet. Like, you can't even believe it how nice she is. So it's just, it's just, you know... I'm gushing a little bit, and I think it's also, speaks to, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. And so if I'm gushing, it means that this was really a special project.

23:33Jawad MirYeah, no, 100%, and I think it was good to see Michelle. I think everybody was great. You know? That, and that rarely happens that it was just the charac… again, e… everything goes back to story and characters. They were just written and fleshed out so well that, you know, the actors had to obviously work hard but probably not as hard because they were just written so well that everything kinda clicked.

23:57Mark StrandYeah.

23:57Jawad MirAnd that's what makes a great story.

23:59Mark StrandYeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, and then the other, the other scenes that were just fun to cut are, were like, obviously there was the golf, driving range.

24:10Jawad MirI was gonna ask you that, yeah.

24:12Mark StrandBut I didn't cut that.

24:13Jawad MirOh.

24:13Mark StrandSo my assistant, I had my assistant cut that, and she, Shannon Lynch, and she did a phenomenal job with that. And just being able, you know, she came in and, like, drooling when the dailies came in, and she's like, "I would really like to cut, the driving range scene." And I was like, " Oh, yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, definitely. You go take that. Like, I love it. I can't wait to see what you do with it." And she had a great aggressive take on it as well. And it was a great cut, and then we worked through with the producers and there were some changes obviously that always get made here and there. But I just, I f… I thought it really, I thought it came out really well, and, people have really responded to that scene.

24:55Jawad MirYeah, I mean…

24:56Mark StrandPro…

24:56Jawad Mir... I, again... Go ahead. Go ahead.

24:57Mark StrandNo, what were you gonna say?

24:59Jawad MirI said I talked about that with Kim as well. I mean, I couldn't really talk about it at the time because the show hadn't come out, but we kinda just touched the, on the surface that how that was one of the best scenes in the entire series among, you know, several others.

25:12Mark StrandYeah. Yeah, no, and it does, you know, Kim was right. Like, it does call attention, the shooting style calls attention to itself.

25:20Jawad MirYeah.

25:21Mark StrandBut the entire series to me feels self-referential, and so that is, within the world of this show, it's completely acceptable, you know?

25:30Jawad MirYeah.

25:30Mark StrandThat first kitchen, baking, fighting scene lets you know what the tone of this show is. And some people were surprised by it. Some people didn't quite know what to make of it, and maybe it took them another episode to realize, like, oh, I thought I was watching this show, but really I'm watching this show. And that's, you know, that's always the challenge of cutting a pilot is to try to find ways to try to just like…

25:55Jawad MirYeah

25:56Mark Strand... Hang a lantern and say, "No, this is what you're watching. This is what you're watching. Relax. It's gonna be great. Let's just keep watching this."

26:02Jawad MirAnd the thing is also, like you said, it's important to set the rules in any s… any world, that these are the rules even if they're not believable.

26:09Mark StrandYeah.

26:09Jawad MirOnce you establish them, then people forget about, you know, this is not realistic or that's not realistic. Majority of the people kinda go along with, on the ride.

26:17Mark StrandYeah. Yeah. Yeah, and certainly for Brother Sun it was imp… it was important that you know that all right, let's not take it too seriously.

26:25Jawad MirYeah.

26:25Mark StrandLet's just enjoy it, you know? And let's have a lot of fun, 'cause the actors are having fun. We're gonna have fun. We want you to have fun.

26:31Jawad MirYou talked about, your team, right? And from an editorial standpoint, do you, is this pretty much the team that you work with, more or less the same all the time, or does it change? H… H… if it does, how does, how does that process work just in general?

26:50Mark StrandYeah. I've been really lucky in a lot of ways, and one of them is that I've had excellent assistants, and one of the ways that's not particularly lucky is that y… you grow them, you help them, and then they move on and start cutting.

27:03Jawad MirYeah.

27:03Mark StrandAnd so this was actually the first series I ever worked with Shannon. And, but we hit it off right away, and we felt, in tune, certainly stylistically in tune, so much so that I handed her, you know, a really big sequence from the third episode that I cut. So even though we haven't worked together for a long time, we did get a shorthand pretty quickly and were able to, you know, trust each other and find a way to collaborate.

27:35Jawad MirAnd…

27:35Mark StrandAnd so I'm working with her again, so she's come with me to this next show.

27:38Jawad MirGood. I was gonna ask you that. That, th… that's the thing, right? Like, you just build that rapport and that shorthand, and you have that chemistry and connection, and it just works.

27:47Mark StrandYeah, for sure. Absolutely. And I've, and I've definitely had situations where I did not have that.

27:53Jawad MirI'm sure you have.

27:54Mark StrandAnd you have to fi… you just have to f… you have to find a way out, and you have to find a solution. And generally everyone probably knows, you know? And so, y… you have some tough conversations here and there, but, yeah, but when it works, it's great.

28:07Jawad MirYeah. And that's okay too because, you know, not everybody gets along in every single way. Like, everybody has different personalities and traits and stuff, so it just depends on that too, and it's okay if it doesn't work as long as you understand that and you just…

28:20Mark StrandYeah

28:20Jawad Mir... You know, go o… go on your own way.

28:22Mark StrandYeah, and I think it's also important that people find the right people for them. So, like, I have a certain taste level and tone level and e… expectation not only of the work that I would like someone to do for me. I mean, a lot of assistant work is sort of organizational and

28:37Jawad MirYeah

28:37Mark Strand... But that's not the money work. I mean, that's important because I wanna be able to get started early or whatever. I have the rhythms I have and the way that I feel that I can contribute the most con… creatively. But the real stuff is saying, "When I ask you to do sound work, what level does it come back to me at, and does that help me tell the story? Are you paying attention to story when you do the sound work? Are you helping, are you choosing music that is in the world that we're trying to establish, or are you just choosing a song?" And so when, if somebody is not choosing stuff that is tonally correct for my tastes, it, they'll be, they'll do better when they're with an editor who aligns more closely to them. So moving on is not, it's just moving on. It's not even good or bad really.

29:26Jawad MirYeah. What was the last film that you directed, and when was it?

29:31Mark StrandI've only directed television, and so I worked on a show…

29:33Jawad MirOh, TV

29:34Mark Strand... Called Rizzoli & Isles, which was a, it was a, like, a m… murder cop procedural, and so I directed a couple of those. And then I worked on a, when I was, the last five years or so before I got onto Brother Sun, I was working for John Wells on Shameless, the last few seasons of Shameless, and at the same time I was working on, the five seasons of a show called Animal Kingdom, which was for TNT. And so I directed three Animal Kingdoms, and so they were, those were, like, heist shows, and they're a Southern California crime family, and so it was, it was heavy drama, and fun action to direct.

30:07Jawad MirAnd on projects like those, is that something that you show interest that you want to do it? Or is it when they're looking for directors? I mean, it happens on a lot of shows, right? Like, you'll have an actor direct an episode, like Breaking Bad or Star Trek. Is it more so because they're looking for different directors, or is it something that you showed interest in?

30:28Mark StrandNo, as you would, as you, I'm sure you know, you have to want it, and you have to go after it.

30:34Jawad MirYeah.

30:34Mark StrandAnd you have to let people know at every turn. So my first interview on Animal Kingdom, I was saying to them, "I just directed on my last show, and I wanna direct on your show. Now, I fully don't expect you to give me a directing gig on the first season I work with you, but you're gonna, in three months you're gonna love me. And so I wanna know that when you do, I have a shot at directing something." And usually the answer is, "Of course, yeah. Sure. Let's just..." You know. And then you have your relationships, and then you just, and you have to remind them. You know, you gotta remi… you gotta do everything, like anything, you… if you want it, you gotta go get it. So you gotta go and remind them that you wanna do it.

31:09Jawad MirYeah.

31:09Mark StrandAnd not only do I wanna do it, I wanna do it next season, too. And I, and I want to if you'll give it to me. You know, like, you just gotta keep pressing forward.

31:16Jawad MirYeah.

31:16Mark StrandAnd so, yeah, so that was... I mean, I love editing and I love directing. I n… I am a much more experienced editor, so everyone wants me as an editor, and I try to leverage that to try to get more directing work.

31:33Jawad MirYeah. No, I, the thing is, the reason sometimes I'm asking these questions that I know the answer is m… for the audience, they don't…

31:38Mark StrandOf course, of course

31:39Jawad Mir... Necessarily, right? Right. And the cool thing about, you know, doing all these things is that it just builds it... Not that you need confidence, you know? I think we, at the same time, we always need confidence all the time just to maintain that, so there's no room left for, you know, self-doubt or, "Should I be able to do this?" And it goes hand-in-hand. It pushes you to become a better editor and it pushes you to become a better director.

32:08Mark StrandYeah. I mean, I am, I like, I like to think I know everything, right? I don't know everything…

32:17Jawad MirYou have…

32:17Mark Strand... But I like…

32:18Jawad MirYou have to. Yeah

32:19Mark Strand... I l… You have to go in, the, you know, I call it my cut, you know? It's, it's not my cut, it's a collaborative cut. I call it my cut, and I make every decision in that cut, and there's a reason for that decision, and I can defend every decision in my cut. Now, I'm not gonna fight anyone. You have to hold on tightly to every decision you make because you wanna make the strongest decision for the, for the project and for the story. And so you need to have strength in your conviction and have made a choice that is interesting, hopefully. And when it, when you turn it in and it becomes someone else's cut, your director, your producer, whatever, the network, you have to let go and say, "It is their cut and I am going to execute their notes as if they're my own." And so, and so that you do as good a job on that note that is terrible, a terrible note, but you execute it like you love it and that's how you have to move through your cut. And that, at least that's how I move through my cut.

33:20Jawad MirAnd I think that comes with time, right? Like, you know, when you're starting out or anybody and you get that feedback and do, executing that feedback would be a lot difficult in the beginning as opposed to 10 years into your career or 20 years into your career because you've seen how things work and how they flow.

33:38Mark StrandAbsolutely. And what you really try to, I mean, certainly what I try to do is, you know, my, it's so hard 'cause it's like, "Wait a minute. Is this my taste or have I just been shifted over because I understand how this process works and I know,.." I've seen, if you shoot, if they're shooting it like this, I can read the tea leaves. They're gonna want this. They're gonna want that. They're gonna want this. They're gonna want that. Okay, so let me put that together. Okay, now let me make that the strongest I can be. Oh, I'm really starting to like this. Now, do I like this because it's r… I'm, I'm really executing their vision in a way that is the best version of that? May… maybe. I don't know. Or am I in line with the way that they're directing? Maybe. You know, it's a little bit of both. So it's important, to,.. I mean, every, even Shannon, she cut the driving range scene and she loved her cut. I loved her cut. I thought it was great. Her first cut, fantastic. We had notes. She had to change them. I watched her boil over. I watched smoke come out of her ears.

34:39Mark StrandI said, at once everyone left, I said, "I see the smoke is coming out of your ears. You just have to get used to it, and let's embrace what it is." And then, you know, I forget when it was, it was probably longer than it would've taken, you know, myself, but she came back and she was like, "You know, I've had enough time away from the cut. I watched the way it's now, it lives, and I think it's very good the way it is." And I was like, "That's good. That's fantastic. That's great." But learning how to manage those expectations and, you know, you know, I've cut many scenes where I s… really struggle because, whatever, the footage is lacking in some fashion. Who knows why? And so, and I'm just like, "Oh, they better not mess with this edit because it's just the only way it can work." And when they do, like, I'm just like, "Oh, you only, you only think you know what you're talking about." And then I go and I need it and I massage it some other way and it works the other way, too, you know? So again, you have to have the conviction of making it work in a way, in what you think may be the only way, and you have to have the openness to change it.

35:49Jawad MirYeah, and I think one of the things that you said, it kinda nails everything. When you're starting out in your career or even, you know, whichever part of the career you have, if there's a tight budget and if there's, that's all they have in terms of shots, it's amazing how much you are able to push yourself without knowing… That what you can make out of what you have available.

36:13Mark StrandYeah.

36:13Jawad MirYou know, like when you're making a sh… when you're making... I remember making a film on eight millimeter, and it was obviously it's film stock, no clue how the hell it's gonna come out, and you know, you realize that how much t… you have to pay extra to process that film, so you better make most of it instead of taking multiple takes over and over again.

36:33Mark StrandYeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's just so interesting, and I'm sure you've found this in your own career where y… you decide it has to be one thing, and then it, and then something messes it up. And all of a sudden…

36:47Jawad MirAlways

36:47Mark Strand... Creativity comes in and saves the day. And you're like…

36:50Jawad MirYeah

36:50Mark Strand... "Well, what if this scene was like this? And what if this scene, oh, if it's like that, what if we just... I mean, maybe if we just did this and we did that, and then maybe we could just land the plane over here and it's gonna work maybe even better." And it's just so exciting, when that happens. And, you know, reality television taught me that a lot. Because in reality television, they, you know, they, depending on what it is, if it's literally just reality, like people are living their lives for a week, and then you're trying to cut together and you're trying to make a story happen, and then you're like, "Well, I do have, I do have that piece where they drove into the barn, and I have that piece where they were sitting in silhouette. And then I have this conversation from over here, and what if I put that conversation as they drive into the barn and then continue it under the silhouette? Maybe that's gonna work." And it does, you know? And you just, you're so excited about the, literally the, I mean, the tangible just, like, putting those pieces together and then revealing it to yourself, and then with the emotional journey that the viewer goes on. And those are the, those are the things that get me excited.

37:54Jawad MirYeah. Did you, have you ever felt, like, with your background, reality and other TV shows that you have done, coming from that world, like, not talking about Nip/Tuck, coming from that kind of a world into the scripted world, I would imagine it's a lot easier to make that transition as opposed to going from the scripted world to the other one.

38:18Mark StrandYeah. It seems that's the case. I think that, in talking to producers... You know, when you're cutting reality sh… you know, like I said, I started in news, in, like, long format documentaries.

38:29Jawad MirYeah.

38:29Mark StrandAnd then I started cutting reality, and then I started cutting... Always, my fa… my love, my what I would watch when I got home was scripted stuff. But you have, you have the opportunities and the connections you have, and you take the journey you take. And, but generally, you had to be more creative, and you have more footage to get through in the documentary world.

38:51Mark StrandAnd it's not shot sometimes with a specific purpose, and so you have to create purpose. And you w… what you, and the most critical thing is you wanna create design. And so how do you make something look like it was designed that maybe wasn't? And then of course with scripted stuff, you know, there's 120 people on the crew, like I was talking about Brother Sun, all working towards the design. And so if you're working on stuff that is already designed and you're trying to, you know, smooth it and tr… and make it feel the best it can, and then you go to stuff that has absolutely no design whatsoever and it just sort of looks like a patchwork quilt and you're not really sure what to, how to manage it, and you gotta go through all this footage, and wait a minute, I can usually get through about seven pages of dailies in a day. But I mean, I, what does that, how does that translate into, like, did I watch two days worth of raw footage, and then I'm almost able to cut together four scenes? And so that, the pace at which I cut reality TV and the pace at which I was able to watch footage, process footage, make notes on footage, and then return to that footage and come up with a plan of how I was gonna cut it, and just make decisions.

39:58Mark StrandWhat you really learn is how to make a decision… ... And then throw stuff away. I mean, in reality, there's so much stuff that doesn't make the cut, and you gotta just g… "That's cool. We don't need it." You better remind, remember it, because when you get a note, it might help you solve that problem. And then when you get to scripted stuff, you just, you know, you have less footage to deal with, and presumably there's a design, and there's also even a script to follow, you know?

40:19Jawad MirYeah.

40:19Mark StrandSo, and then…

40:20Jawad MirYeah

40:20Mark Strand... And then, and then every reality person I've ever talked to, every producer will say, "Oh, hey, some scripted guy wants to work on this show, but I'm nervous 'cause the last three guys, they burned out really quickly." And I go, "Yeah. I get it."

40:32Jawad MirYeah.

40:32Mark StrandSo that's, that's…

40:33Jawad MirYeah

40:33Mark Strand... So I think you're right.

40:35Jawad MirYeah. What would you like to do more in the future, or would you like to continue your mix of, you know, different projects and different genres?

40:48Mark StrandYeah. I think, I think, you know, the one thing I haven't been able to do is I haven't been able to cut a feature, and I think I'd like to cut a feature. I think that's just a different challenge. I think that, you know, I cut about eight hours of television a year, and so some part, like a, like a small part of me, like, the, that came out of reality television and that cuts scripted television and says, like, "How can I spend a year on two hours?" Like, "What are you talking about?"

41:11Mark StrandAnd then there's the other side of me which knows exactly what I could spend those two years on. I can make it more elegant. I can make it more intimate. I can make it more personal. And I would, I would just really be excited to do that. So if I were to say in five years, if we're gonna have a conversation again, hopefully it'll be about a feature film I've, I've cut.

41:36Jawad MirWould you ever edit your own feature that you would direct?

41:39Mark StrandNo. I mean, I, y… the answer is y… yes and no. So, because there's... I want, I mean, it doesn't matter. But, so the first TV show I directed, I had an editor who was fantastic. This, and, but it's so challenging. I mean, you're an editor, you know, as well as director. So it's just so challenging to sit behind somebody else.

42:05Jawad MirYeah.

42:05Mark StrandYou can have conversations. You know, I've read all of, I'm sure you have too, I've read all of Walter Murch's books. And the, it, and he and Anthony Minghella have these, like, really pleasant, lovely conversations around pasta dinners. And then he goes off and he, and he goes and he solves problems. And, like, that's the only way you... I sort of feel like I could really work well with an editor. I can't sit behind another editor because I would just wanna do it myself. And so I had a lot of challenges on the second episode I directed, 'cause one of my assistants was promoted in… entirely to cut the show I was directing. And I sat there and I looked at him and he looked at me and he was like, "Do you wanna sit here and do it?" And I was like, "Well, a little bit. A little bit I do, but I think it's better if we, you know, do it together." And we made it through, but I definitely value what the editor does in having another point of view. I know exactly the way I think it should start, and I think that it's important. And when directors do it to me and they say, "Hey, man, this is great.

43:06Mark StrandI love what you've done. But..." And they don't say this, but they say it without saying it. "But you've solved problems I'm not convinced are problems yet. So let's go back to the way that I designed it, and so that we can both see the problems again and we can solve them together." And sometimes the, they'll, they'll watch those and they'll say, "Oh, I see why you did that. Oh, yes, that was the better solution," and we go there. And sometimes we come up with a third or fourth option that works just as well, if not better. And so I think that if you do it yourself, you might... I don't know. I feel like I've just been doing it for so long, I could probably identify all the problems myself, or certainly in those collaborative meetings with assistants or bring in other people to watch and in conversation come up with a plan. But I'm a strong editor, and I hope I help my directors, and so I would... Why wouldn't I want that brain to collaborate with on my stuff?

44:05Jawad MirYeah.

44:05Mark StrandDo you... What do, what do you do? And how do you f… what do you think?

44:07Jawad MirI edited my first feature. That was mainly a feature documentary, mainly because of the budget reason, and also because I loved editing. I'm like, "I'm gonna edit it." and then the second and the third one that I did myself…

44:19Mark StrandDo you, do you think that was a good idea?

44:21Jawad MirNo.

44:22Mark StrandOh.

44:22Jawad MirSo the second and third one, I really wanted an editor. Again, it was a little bit... It was better budget, but it was a little tight, so what I did was I did it myself and presented a rough cut, then I brought an editor on board. And she and I o… over, during COVID, worked over Zoom, in, getting her notes and stuff, and I kinda went and implemented them. And that worked, because I enjoyed it too, plus at the same time I had an… somebody else who was there with me. And I think, and I think a lesson that I learned, from that was after directing, like any feature that I direct, I wouldn't mind being, like, a second editor, just so that I'm there. At least that's the mentality that I have right now. But having somebody else doing it does make your life easier, because you've got... You know, as a director, you've got so many things going on. You got so many things to handle. And then if you're a producer on top of it, then good luck. You know? Like, there's so many things.

45:17Mark StrandYeah.

45:17Jawad MirSo…

45:17Mark StrandYeah

45:17Jawad Mir... That's what I feel right now. I don't know. It may change.

45:20Mark StrandYeah. That sounds right to me. I mean, I'll tell you. You know what I hate doing? Cutting dailies. So like if

45:26Jawad MirYeah

45:26Mark Strand... If somebody got me a first cut and then we just talked about it, had a nice, lovely pasta dinner, that would be great. I would love that. And if... You know, sometimes I'd be like, "You know what? Let me take a whack at this sequence," or whatever. I think I would find that pretty enjoyable.

45:40Jawad MirYeah.

45:40Mark StrandHard to know. You know, and I think that, but I do think that the more eyeballs, the more collaborative eyeballs, not just eyeballs. I get plenty of notes from people who are just eyeballs, and they're just noting to note. But, real collaboration is so valuable. And so, I think, you know, like you said, you had another person who you were able to talk to and work through a sequence. It just, it, there's no downside to that.

46:03Jawad MirYeah. And also, I think one thing that we talked about earlier was that connection that you must have with the editor in terms of your point of view. Not necessarily that he or she may have to agree with you, but just enough to counter you, but enough to understand you. And I think, again, it's that synergy, that marriage. If that works, then you are, you have that, built that relationship where you're willing to take criticism, but you's also willing to tell the editor, "This is what I want," because again, at the end of the day, that's your vision.

46:33Mark StrandYeah.

46:33Jawad MirBut willing to take it and then kinda balance it. It's hard, but I think that's, that's what at least I enjoy the most…

46:39Mark StrandYeah

46:39Jawad Mir... Is just, you know, doing it together. And at the end of the day, it's all about the story. Like, anything that makes the film great…

46:46Mark StrandYeah

46:46Jawad Mir... I'm down for that.

46:48Mark StrandYeah. It's always a lesson, a lesson in, like, patience…

46:50Jawad MirYou learn

46:51Mark Strand... And humility.

46:52Jawad MirYeah.

46:52Mark StrandYou know?

46:52Jawad MirYou learn.

46:52Mark StrandAnd it's just like, I just, I want to feel this one out. And also depending on what your relationships are. So you could have a relationship with one editor that, at which point that works really well, and another, and maybe you need to take the reins a little bit more. It's just such a, it's such a fun job to do.

47:09Jawad MirIt is.

47:09Mark StrandAnd to be able to spend your life connecting to characters and helping design ways to tell their stories that people respond to, so.

47:20Jawad MirYeah.

47:20Mark StrandYeah. So if it's with two people, five people, 20 people, it's, it's all great.

47:25Jawad MirYeah. Awesome, man. This has been great. Thank you so much for your time, unless you wanna add anything else. I mean, I had a great time talking to you about obviously the series, but obviously just in general about filmmaking. Would love to chat with you again, maybe on the project that you're working on right now.

47:42Mark StrandSure. Yeah. No, it's been great talking to you for an hour, and like I said, I listened to Kim's and I thought that was a really fun, podcast as well, and I'll continue to listen to the others that I hadn't, hadn't heard yet.

47:53Jawad MirAwesome, man. Thank you so much. Talk soon.

47:55Mark StrandYeah. Thank you. Nice meeting you.

47:56Jawad MirAll right. Take care. Likewise. Bye-bye. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.