'Alice in Wonderland', Editor, Chris Lebenzon

0:00Chris LebenzonThere wasn't much environment and so we didn't have the Jabberwocky, at all. You know, the monster. She would be swinging her sword at nothing. So it was a, it was a process to just keep on it and, as I'd put black banners in for the face, you know, hoping that maybe I'd get it. It was just the process of building a scene, that would work. And it was climactic, I remember, but y… you know, with time you can get that done.

0:44Jawad MirSo you served as an editor and executive producer on Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland, and, my... I remember when I was a kid, probably about, I would like to guess nine or 10, I had seen the d… original Disney, Alice in Wonderland so many times. Like, you know, I'd know the lines like, "Off with her head," and, "Who are you?" Like all that stuff, you know. I've seen it so many times. So it was very refreshing to see, and I just finished watching it right now, to see something different, but at the same time very properly done.

1:20Jawad MirAnd I'm not a fan of Disney live action remakes, but this was really well done, you know, in terms of the performances, and the visuals, and editing, and everything. So really enjoyed it.

1:34Chris LebenzonYeah. Thank you. No, it's been,.. It was made in what? 2011.

1:39Jawad Mir10. Yeah.

1:40Chris LebenzonOh. 2010.

1:41Jawad MirYeah.

1:41Chris LebenzonWow. So 14 years ago, and I, had a chance before this to breeze back through it, and I had forgotten how, beautiful it was, and how the story really resonated and held together.

1:58Jawad MirIt sure did. And I think if Tim Burton didn't, hadn't directed it, I mean, the visuals... You know how we all know Tim Burton. You ha… You see a frame, you know that's Tim Burton's film. Like, you could just tell, right? And if somebody else had done it, not to take away from anyone, it probably wouldn't have been that seamless in terms of visual effects and stories and everything. So, you know, you served as an editor, but having worked with Tim Burton so often, y… how did the EP role kind of came into play? Was it just a very organic thing?

2:32Chris LebenzonYes. It started, I think, on the movie prior to, that. I don't even remember what one that was. You might know. But, I served as, an editor, but I dealt with the studio an enormous amount. And Richard Zanuck wasn't with us. I think that was his first movie as a producer. And, the marketing people at, I think it was Paramount, said, "You know, Chris, you do the job of a producer here. Have you ever thought about that role?" And I thought, "Well, not really, you know. I'm, I'm... I kind of like to stay undercover and be an editor." But, she encouraged me and others did, and I, went to Tim and asked him about it, and he said, "No, that'd be a good idea." So that says, that's, I guess there's no… nothing more organic than that really.

3:33Chris LebenzonSo I was lucky to be on a, on a movie of that stature, and I think that's his highest grossing movie, to be that, with that title.

3:46Jawad MirYeah, I was actually quite surprised but wasn't surprised when I saw the box office numbers just, like, 20 minutes ago. One, over $1 billion. And you know, obviously Alice in Wonderland is such, like, a big name that's been around for so long. But nevertheless, for people to... I don't think that movie would make that much money now if it was to release today. I just don't think people have that appetite regardless of who does it, but it was done really well, and people really... You know, I think the visuals really got to people because it was something new and fresh, you know, with the motion capture technology, which was in the early stages, i… in those times.

4:26Chris LebenzonNo, I think you're absolutely right. These days it might be different, but the, it seemed to be ahead of its time with the visual transitions and the s… visual effects and the beautiful design and the photography, and the characters were spot on with their voices. And the transitions were gorgeous, and the message was nice…

4:47Jawad MirYeah

4:47Chris Lebenzon... You know, for kids.

4:50Jawad MirYes, 100%. Would it be fair to say, and please forgive my ignorance, is Alice, when you worked as the editor on Alice in Wonderland, would it be fair to say it was one of the first times you had done a film where it was completely, you know, with the exception of the opening and the ending scenes, green screen, like, to that extent?

5:11Chris LebenzonI'd have to say yes. I haven't looked at my bio lately, but I'd say for sure. I mean, there were only two scenes, in the beginning and the end that were actually, they were shot in England and were…

5:25Jawad MirRight

5:26Chris Lebenzon... Normal photography. The whole rest of it were men in suits or little creatures in green or nobody there that actors were acting to, and, it was quite a process. And we had a brilliant visual effects supervisor in Ken Ralston. I remember Richard Zanuck said he basically invented visual effects with John Dykstra, and he was terrific.

5:54Jawad MirYeah. And what, how challenging was it? Or should I use a different word? What was the process like… Editing something like that as well as being an EP on the film, and were you physically present on the set, for that, for all the, all the production, or most of it at least?

6:13Chris LebenzonWell, we... E… good question. With Tim, with Tim, I'm always with him.

6:20Jawad MirOkay.

6:21Chris LebenzonRight near the set. M… primarily, his movies are done on the set. His best ones are done, you know, are set movies. And, he calls me to the set. He comes in the cutting room during the day. He's very involved in the cut, and he learns from the cut. Other directors don't wanna look at the cut, a lot of them, until they're done shooting. But for him, it's a learning process. He comes from animation, so he's very particular and specific about what he gets. He's not a commercial director, who I've worked with a lot of, who they just cover everything, and that's great later, but it's, it's not precise work, so much. It finds its, it's finds its footing in the cutting room and in post-production. Whereas Tim, comes in during the day, like I say. I get the video tap, we call it…

7:18Chris Lebenzon... Which comes out of the cameras on set right into the cutting room during the day. So I won't even have all the footage of a scene, and I start editing it. And, you know, I'll put black banners in for a close-up missing or, you know, moments that I would like. And Tim comes in, and he goes, "Yeah, that's a good idea." Or sometimes, "I don't think we need it." But it's, it's that kind of a process during shooting with all of his movies. So that's... It's been great for both of us. And he actually probably about a third of the way in or maybe half the way through production, every Friday I make a, I make a version for him. He sees the movie as it is, and it gives him ideas about the characters, the emotional content, if he's being true to the narrative, and really helps him continue. And he gives me a couple of notes too, which are great. So the nice thing about that collaboration is, in some cases, when directors see their first cut, the assembly, you know, they w… they wanna retire and get out of the business because they en… it's, it's either long or unfocused or most scripts are overwritten.

8:35Chris LebenzonBut in the case of Tim, at the end of shooting, when I show him the whole movie, he's basically seen it, so there's no, there's no agenda. We just go to work and do what we have to do.

8:48Jawad MirThat's incredible. And, you know, it's so true what you said, about seeing a cut and trying to you know, sort of say goodbye to it. I remember the very first film that I directed. I'm in the doc world, doc narrative world and…

9:05Chris LebenzonRight

9:05Jawad Mir... Now sort of shifting into narrative. But I remember the very first doc that I did. You know, it's all seems fine and dandy, like, when you're working on it. But when you sit down in the post-production, then you're like, "Oh, crap." Right? And then that's where the, where the path of should I continue doing this, or should I…

9:23Jawad Mir... You know, move on? But it's, it's a daunting thing, for sure. Like, you know, you just don't... You think you're just get… getting shots, but the story thing makes a huge... You know, that's what's it all about. It's all about the story at the end of the day, and that's it.

9:36Chris LebenzonYeah. And, you know, it is difficult showing a first cut. Eh, it's just always, especially with commercial directors because, I mean, Armageddon, I think, was three and a half hours first cut, maybe Pearl Harbor the same, with Michael Bay. And then it's a matter of whittling it down and focusing. It's a lot more work. Whereas Tim's a very cu… because of his animation background…

10:02Chris Lebenzon... He does, he shoots a lot of takes for performance, but it's not a lot of angles. It's, it's sometimes he only shoots one camera. A lot of his DPs don't like to shoot two cameras because they're not lit for it. You know, they light it for one angle. But, he... The last few, he's, he's had two cameras. His director of photography's has, have encouraged it. But it's a, it's a good way to go. In the case of Alice, so much was being evolved after the cut, you know, in terms of visual effects and, creating these characters that weren't there, adding the voices. You know, we basically had off-screen voices for Johnny…

10:50Jawad MirYeah

10:50Chris Lebenzon... When he's, you know, the Mad Hatter sitting at that table with all of the animated characters. We didn't have, you know, the... We didn't have the real actors there off-screen reading him lines. So he was great that way. I mean, they're all so well trained. Helena, was terrific, and Crispin Glover was interesting, and all the live actors in the movie in the beginning and the end were classic British, theater-trained actors. And, since then, it's been a long time, I've seen them in a lot of really special projects, so it was an honor to be working with them.

11:29Jawad MirThat's amazing. And of course, the great Alan Rickman, e… even though he had a very small part, but, you know, it was nice to hear his voice. He was just one of a kind, that, you know, certainly is missed. I mean, I know, like, growing up with Die Hard and, you know, the most classic, antagonist there ever has been, in my opinion.

11:50Chris LebenzonOh, yeah. No, as the blue caterpillar, he was…

11:52Jawad MirYeah

11:53Chris Lebenzon... Spot on. He was spot on. And, we actually did, s… I think it was, what was it? Sweeney Todd with him.

12:02Jawad MirYes

12:02Chris Lebenzon... And he would, he and actually, Tim Spall, who's also a voice as Bayard and Alice, were both in that movie, you know, how many years later, as real characters. So, he's, he's, he's so watchable in anything he does, and he loved the movie. The preview in New York, the premiere in New York, he was, he was very nice to me and, I was honored by his presence.

12:32Jawad MirRight. Just kind of jumping back in time, Chris, and I hope you don't mind, you know, what was the catalyst in you becoming who you are today? How did the journey start in general in the film industry as well as with Tim Burton?

12:49Chris LebenzonI left... I was one of those guys that, all my roommates were wanting to be lawyers in college, and I had no interest in that. I came from a more artistic background, I'd have to say. I would draw a lot as a kid, more internal things. And so I left school to, after two years university and went to an art school in, East Bay, California College of Arts and Crafts.

13:21Chris LebenzonAnd while I was there, you know, I made a couple little films and enjoyed it. And, my brother, my oldest brother knew the guys that made Woodstock, and much older than me, and they needed a... They were gonna make another movie on the American Revolution for the bicentennial. So we're talking, 1976.

13:45Chris LebenzonSo I was a kid. I left school, drove down to LA. They let me stay at their house, the director, Michael Wadleigh. And there was an editing machine there that they did Woodstock on s… in the garage. So I played with it a lot and could thread it up and, you know, I gravitated a bit toward it because it was, it was very much like drawing. I mean, it was an internal... Back then, editing was very much you and the film.

14:11Jawad MirYeah.

14:11Chris LebenzonNow it's you and eight studio executives and three producers and a director and writers and previews and, you know, it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

14:19Jawad MirRight.

14:19Chris LebenzonBut back when I started, I f… I enjoyed it, and I became an apprentice on something after being a PA and just kind of worked my way up and got lucky really because during those times there, you could, you could make a movie, they were called independent films. There was no studio involvement. It was fi… financed by individuals who wanted to see their name on a movie screen, basically, and could deduct it from taxes back then. So I did like three or four of those editing before I could even... Before I ever assisted or even handled film, you know, I was cutting my hands on the film because it would move fast through those Moviolas. And so I just, kept at it and, ended up, on, Weird Science, which was one of my first, feature films for a studio.

15:21Chris LebenzonIt was uni... It was, what was it? Universal. And then I did Top Gun from there. Moved over to Paramount, had an association with Tony Scott. He kept me very busy. A… and the, my co-editor who hired me to do Top Gun, Billy Weber, brought me onto Midnight Run, who he had made the first Beverly Hills Cop with Marty Brest. So, you know, that's how the business works. I kept working and, Tim Burton needed a editor for Batman Returns. So I went in to meet him and, he went to art school too, in, at Cal Arts, which was d… the, that same version but down in Southern California. I was in Northern California. And we connected pretty quickly, and I loved all the toys on his wall. And, we, he hired me pretty much. And from then on, I did, I was fortunate enough that I did every one, until, you know, for I think, I think there's been 14 movies, including the animated ones, which we did Nightmare Before Christmas during Batman Returns and just because I was there.

16:44Chris LebenzonYou know, it's a long process in animated film. Henry Selick would come down. We'd show three shots or something. You know, they take forever as it was stop motion on the, on the cam. And he ended up asking me to help him continue with it when Batman Returns was finished. So, that was fun. It was my first animated film with him. Then there was Corpse Bride and Frankenweenie after that down the road.

17:10Jawad MirRight. No, that's, that's fantastic. Did you... Before I go on something else, did you do Edward as well?

17:16Chris LebenzonYes.

17:19Jawad MirFor me, I think, I mean, Tim Burton has done some amazing stuff, right? Like, I can go watch every movie of his, but Edward holds a special place. I don't know why. You know, because maybe it's because I'm a bit of a filmmaker and that's what I do, and you could relate to that to some extent, but it's one of the most best, one of the, his best works. I truly enjoyed Edward. I mean, everything else too, and especially with Batman Returns. You know, when you, when you said Batman Returns, I remember, watching the trailer and watching the film and I said to myself, and this was before I realized, you know, I think Batman Returns came out in two, 1991, I think, if I'm not mistaken.

17:57Chris LebenzonThat's right.

17:57Jawad MirYeah.

17:58Chris LebenzonYeah.

17:58Jawad MirSo I realized that I wanna go in that d…... You know, journey of being a director in '93 when Jurassic Park came out, but I appreciated the editing sequence of Catwoman when she does that whole flip, you know, when she…... And then she goes, "Meow." And then the gas station I think it was that explodes in the background.

18:17Chris LebenzonYeah.

18:18Jawad MirYeah, I thought that, I mean, that still, I still remember that. Like, that's how much impact that quick, you know, set of edits had on, i… in my conscious, and that just kind of went on to do, you know, what I do now. So yeah, hats off to you for that. It was amazing.

18:32Chris LebenzonOh, that's nice. No, that, it was, it was fun, the movie. It was the big, it was the big movie for me. I hadn't done any... I, the sets were beyond…

18:41Jawad MirOh, God, yeah

18:42Chris Lebenzon... Beautiful. And, Danny's music, he'd come in and ask me to lengthen a shot or two, and I thought, “Why is the composer asking me to do that?” What it was for his theme when the light goes on in the sky for the big Batman theme.

18:57Jawad MirYeah.

18:58Chris LebenzonAnd I said, "Sure, Danny." You know, he's Danny Elfman, I thought, he has a long association with Tim, and he's such a nice guy. So I, and I did it, and he said, "Okay, can you make it even a little longer?" And I thought, wow, I'd never sit on this shot like this forever, you know? Up in the twirls of light, everything's happening. Michael Keaton looks up, and it flashes in the sky, three or four cuts, endless. And then that theme hit it so hard. It was brilliant. But

19:27Jawad MirYeah

19:27Chris Lebenzon... It was a great collaboration and tough. We worked every day to hit a release date. And actually, the studio was very uncertain about the movie, in terms of, you know, it was a different era. But they didn't want anybody being on fire. No fire with people. And if you remember, there was a guy running through Gotham City…

19:49Chris Lebenzon... On fire. And it's funny because, the objection with the MPAA, I think back then, was when Catwoman put the stuffed animal in the garbage disposal, and you can't do that. That, apparently that offends, in their minds, that would offend too many moviegoers. So I think we got away with that one. We appealed, and you wouldn't ne… you would never these days think that would be at all an issue. But like I say, it was another era. And Batman was meant, you know, for a PG audience.

20:26Jawad MirYeah.

20:26Chris LebenzonMaybe PG. The first one I'm, I'm sure was PG. But it was, it was special. And Ed Wood, it's funny you mention it because I've had directors call me and say, you know, "Because of that movie, I want to hire you." And I thought, well, it wasn't very hard to edit. I mean, it really wasn't. If you look at it was about taking scenes out. You know, there was a lot of stuff between Bella and, Ed, Martin Landau and Ed that, we, I convinced him to take out. He was very gracious about it, because there was m… there's more there. But it just seemed, it didn't really add much for me. But the movie was, it was in black and white. It was,.. He, we did it in New York. He wanted to leave LA. We went out there. I missed the giant earthquake here because of that, the Northridge quake, which was great.

21:27Chris LebenzonBut it was a very cold winter, and we mixed the movie up at, up at Berkeley at Fantasy Films, which isn't there anymore. So he was moving around a lot, to kind of maybe even duck around the studio to do, post-production. And it was hard for them to reconcile, that movie with their tastes. It didn't, it, they were confused at a preview when they saw it with an audience. But you know, you were right. In hindsight, it was, it was a terrific film, and people really loved it.

22:06Jawad MirYeah. I mean, to know that there was a guy who made Plan 9 from Outer Space, and then I actually ended up watching Plan 9 from Outer Space, you know, with the sp… with the saucers hanging off a string, you know?

22:17Chris LebenzonRight.

22:17Jawad MirI mean, that just kind of goes to show like the dedication of the guy. You know? Like, he just wanted to make a film, as crappy or terrible as it is, but he ended up making it anyways. And that's what Ed Wood is about. It's about perseverance and believing in itself and who you are, and no matter what anybody else think.

22:31Chris LebenzonThat's right. Yeah, that's exactly right.

22:36Jawad MirGoing back to Alice in Wonderland, Chris, had you seen the original animated version before you took a dive on that, on the actual live action?

22:46Chris LebenzonYou know, I saw it way, I saw it way back when I was a kid. You know, six or seven or something, but I didn't revisit it. I actually had to overlap with an... I was finishing up another movie, so I missed like the first week or two, so I had no prep time to get myself involved in it, which was fine because it was, we shot it right here in Culver City, which is now the Amazon Studios. But it was a legendary, Culver Studios. I think,.. Oh, Casablanca. No, Gone With the Wind was shot there.

23:24Jawad MirOkay.

23:25Chris LebenzonBut I didn't, I didn't apply any knowledge from the original. And to be honest, when I did Dumbo, I barely saw the first Dumbo. I didn't want to color my view of the movie with…

23:39Jawad MirYeah

23:39Chris Lebenzon... The original

23:41Jawad MirYeah, no, good thinking. Good thinking because you don't see that in any of the Alice in Wonderland, at least the live action one. So

23:50Chris LebenzonYeah

23:50Jawad Mir... But yeah.

23:50Chris LebenzonNo. No, I know. I mean, I mean, I read the script, I follow it, but I don't hold it as a Bible at all because the audience doesn't read the script when they walk into a movie theater. So I try and be as objective as I can with the material.

24:09Jawad MirRight. In Alice in Wonderland, like, I was watching some behind-the-scenes stuff, right? Like for example, how certain scenes were done, you know, with the green screen and everything. But nevertheless, like, when you... I'm just trying to wrap my head around, and I can... I mean, I can envision it, but at the same time would like for you to sort of talk about it. When you are editing Alice in Wonderland, and like we asked, we spoke earlier that how it was very different, you know, with all the green screen and everything. How, as an editor, challenging if at all it was, like, you know, trying to work with scenes that didn't have anything else around them and the... Like especially the finale where Alice fights the dragon. I mean, she's just kind of in thin air just moving around with a sword, right? Like, how do you, how do you kind of overcome that? Because at least in the live action, full live action you have all these reaction shots and these emotions that you can sort of, you know, observe and implement your editing based on that.

25:09Jawad MirWas that any m… any more challenging for you to do that, or was it a piece of cake and walk in the park for you?

25:14Chris LebenzonIt is. I mean, I don't remember the exact sequence of shots I got, but in a, in a scene like that, I had probably the reaction shots and what Johnny and the White Queen and maybe even Helen were doing before Alice actually went up those steps. And it was just steps, by the way. There was nothing... Most of those sets were not sets. They were just, whatever the actor needed to walk on.

25:46Chris LebenzonAnd there were some spooky trees maybe here and there or, but there wasn't much environment. And so we didn't have the Jabberwocky, at all. You know, the monster. She would be swinging her sword at nothing. So it was a, it was a process to just keep on it, and, as I'd put black banners in for the face, you know, hoping that maybe I'd get it. It was just the process of building a scene, that would work. And it was climactic I remember, but y… you know, with time you can get that done and visual effects, post, you know, the visualization…

26:35Chris Lebenzon... Which they do now. They do pre and post. On that I don't think, I think, I don't think I had much pre-visualization, which is, you know, it's kind of a cartoon of what it's supposed to be. But now it's very sophisticated. We pre-visualize almost a whole movie, and then some, most director... Tim doesn't even follow it. It's a guide really. Some directors follow it to a fault in a way. But it was challenging but with... The beauty of that is y… I have time because things aren't coming... It's not getting a massive film and say, "Okay, I have to make this scene out of this." and then an… an… another two hours of film's coming in tomorrow. So that's a luxury in a way on these big visual effects movies, especially back then. We had a lot of time to make that movie, and we had to work every day I think from Jan… January 2nd. I might have worked New Year's Day until the release because we had to hit a release date.

27:38Chris LebenzonAnd it... But it worked. It all came together.

27:46Jawad MirHow big is your team, post-production team? Like how many people do you work with and what process do you have in working with them? Whether it was Alice in Wonderland or any other project.

27:57Chris LebenzonIt's really not that... It's I have an assistant, and a first assistant, and I, and a second assistant, and an apprentice. And that's all really. And what happens is the visual effects teams are bigger. You know, now there's visual effects editors, on movies, and they have a whole…

28:22Jawad MirYeah

28:22Chris Lebenzon... They have a, they have a, they have twice the size of the editing team because they have meetings with different vendors around the world now, in all the, on all the countries. So they're al… always trying to navigate. And visual effects takes a while. But we get various stages of a shot in at different times and plug them in, and it's a give or take, and we need handles. Tim and I generally leave things long because you can't ask for more later. They cost so much these days.

28:55Jawad MirYeah.

28:55Chris LebenzonSo we leave it long and, you know, some people think, "Why are you doing that?" But we cut it when we have it all. In, you know, three days we can trim a movie down. But, we don't want to be caught without having enough of a shot. And, you know, that's... It's, it's, it's, it's challenging and that's the world now. There's so many of these. I'm on one right now. There's so many of these movies that are dependent on not just the footage and yourself but visual effects people around the world. And we're always having meetings and commenting on what can be better, and how the dimensionality of the shots look, and the characters and how far away they are from each other and, you know, the backgrounds. And Tim on every movie I've worked on with him, when he can he's changed the sky. He's a big, he's very big into…

29:52Jawad MirOh, yeah

29:52Chris Lebenzon... How's the sky supposed to look? Because pretty much there's blue screen up there when you're shooting on a set. You can make a sky. And so we pick different... If you, if you... His movies are very obviously moody, so he has classic cloud net. It was very evident in Alice as well, the skies that we could make.

30:17Jawad MirRight. I'm glad you talked about handles. I find something I learned, on a feature that I… at my second feature which I co-edited, but, you know, just kind of helped out here and there. And when we sent it for grading, which is, you know, s… not visual effects but still you have to get it graded, I realized that how after we did so many screenings everywhere, you know, in Europe and North America that you see something and then you have to do the whole thing, you know, create and extend the shot, send it to the colorist. It's better just to do, you know, at least 15 to 20 seconds of extra handles than just keep it with you in case things come up. But in visual effects it's a completely different thing because it's m… way more intensified than, you know, color grading.

31:03Chris LebenzonYeah. No, it's true. I mean, we… we're lucky to get a foot, you know, 16 frames. Sometimes we ask for a second. And at a certain point in the movie when budget becomes an issue and the cut's kind of finding itself, oftentimes they'll come to me and say, "Do you really need any handle," you know, on certain shots. And certain ones I'm confident we won't need, so you know, it's always... It's, it's more... There's just more going on these movies in post-production and, working with the teams of, the visual effects people. So it's…

31:40Jawad MirYeah

31:41Chris Lebenzon... It's... The editing crew I use isn't, isn't very, isn't very big.

31:46Jawad MirYeah.

31:46Chris LebenzonI mean, I have... With Tim I have my own visual effects editor who kind of works with me, and handles the visual effects material. It's not the visual effects producer, but, you know, on Alice, Ken had his whole team, Ken Ralston. And, our editor, I don't even remember what, who that was, because we... I think we were handling a lot of it, i… in the movie. I mean, when Johnny's around that... When we meet him and he's around that table with all those, with all those characters, when we meet the Mad Hatter, we didn't have any… it was just him. And we had voices and it came alive later. You know, ultimately you just cut to, a, somebody in green, and those were small characters. You know, there was a mouse, there was

32:44Jawad MirMr. Rabbit

32:44Chris Lebenzon... Yeah, exactly. And Bayard, I think the dog, he was, he was green.

32:52Jawad MirYeah.

32:52Chris LebenzonAnd of course Crispin Glover, he was always, he was always green. He wasn't even dressed. Helena was in her costume. And Johnny, of course, I mean, even when he stormed across the table, nobody was there, just a lot of teapots and, things that he could knock over as he, as he stormed to the end of the other table. But he's such a veteran. I mean, it was so easy to pick the takes and work with his material.

33:23Jawad MirYeah, 100%. You know, earlier, Chris, you talked about, you mentioned Beverly Hills Cops and working with Tony Scott. My wife and I just literally two weeks ago we saw Beverly Hills Cop. I saw it after a long time, like probably, you know, a good 30 years or so. And it was... You know, it was such a great film because it was simple.

33:47Jawad MirAnd there was not a lot of, you know, characters, extra stories, you know, floating around. And I find, and I'm... You can probably tell me if I'm ri… right or wrong, you know, movies nowadays are not the way they used to be in my opinion.

34:00Jawad MirThere are some good ones here and there. I... Is it because our s… the stories have become more visual effects dependent slash also like you said earlier, you know, there's like five producers, studio executives, all these people involved as opposed to, you know, in the '80s or even '90s or '70s that probably wasn't the case as much. Is that fair to assess?

34:23Chris LebenzonYeah. No. It was, much more... Well, I was fortunate 'cause Tim has always had final cut because of his success, and, Tony Scott had that. And Jerry Bruckheimer, who I've worked with a lot, I think I've done 12 movies with him as a producer, he i… he was the studio. So he kind of kept them away, and he was a great asset, with his creative comments, but he would leave us alone. You know, that's the mark of a talented pro… He'd hire all the right people he thought were good for the job, and his comments were brilliant. And then we wouldn't even show the stu… We'd show the studio when we showed an audience. We... They call it a preview, a test screening. And so it... That's when it shakes out, but they weren't, they weren't as involved, Disney, when we did... Or he had his deal over there or even Paramount. But now it's, they're not as hi… they're not hired as much, final cut directors.

35:28Chris LebenzonThe studio likes to,.. And they're smart people. They're, they're, they're, they're trained in story and their craft, but they're looking at the bottom line. You know, what's gonna make money?

35:43Jawad MirYep.

35:43Chris LebenzonAnd what's, what... How can we keep the shareholders happy? And, you know, keeping their jobs is important, as it is with all of us. But I don't know how long their deals are, but sometimes they're only two or three years, so it's not like you're gonna be there a long time if you don't perform. So there's a certain nervousness, on every movie now, e… especially the higher the budget, the m… the more, anxiety I want to say there is. And there's,.. So that's why you're seeing a predominance of sequels. You know, there's a, there's, there's nothing that new. When they, when they, wh… when we were making movies in the '80s, there weren't very many sequels. Beverly Hills Cop might have been the first I mean, I don't know what the first movie was that had a sequel. There's, I guess maybe, Lethal Weapon or something.

36:34Jawad MirYeah.

36:34Chris LebenzonI'm not sure back then. But now, with, intellectual property so important, there's... It's not even sequels, they're remakes of movies… ... That were done maybe twice before. So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's still fun and it's still, it's still a movie and it's, you know, we're lucky to be doing this, but there is more opinions to recognize and more viewpoints to take into consideration, and there are more previews now in terms of audience test screenings. You know, three, four, five t… five sometimes, previews in different parts of the country, just for security's sake. It's also for marketing. The people that sell movies now are so important with the internet and they, you know, they feel responsible for the box office of a movie as much as the filmmakers. So it's a, it's a whole art form that, what trailers are made, and they test those trailers now to a great degree, and you fi… you see them on every, you know, social media site.

37:53Chris LebenzonSo it's just expanded the entertainment business, of movies that way.

38:00Jawad MirRight. And I feel it's a cycle of anything else in life, right? Like, I think because of all this that's going on, which is great in some cases, in my humble opinion, I feel that what happened in the '90s with the, with the, you know, independent films becoming more and more prominent, especially Miramax starting it, and then…

38:22Chris LebenzonRight

38:22Jawad Mir... DreamWorks had a big... I feel that there is that void right now which only one company is doing, A24. They tell stories that are much on a smaller scale or more humanistic, and I feel audience is craving for it. But, not, I don't think…

38:38Chris LebenzonYeah

38:38Jawad Mir... Anybody is having that courage to take a chance and to do something like that more often than, you know, than they, than they do now. So it'd be interesting to see it, 'cause I grew up all that stuff, right? Like, even the big budget movies like Beverly Hills Cop, if you wanna call it, Top Gun, Crimson Tide, they were just so centric on characters and story than anything else.

39:00Chris LebenzonYeah. No, you're right. We do miss those... We do miss the kind of lower budget, but more, spontaneous, and they take more chances 'cause they can afford to. But I think that'll come back. I mean, you do see it. You do, you do see it now. It's just whether you're gonna get a feature release, because it costs so much to market a movie. And, you know, with the, with, the streaming services, th… they can show anything. They can make whatever they want and show. They don't have to, try hit a home run every time. So you'll see kind of smaller…

39:39Jawad MirYeah

39:39Chris Lebenzon... And a lot of documentaries. You know, you see that now, which are great. I love seeing those on all the streaming services. It seems, we've never seen so many, in my mind.

39:51Jawad MirYeah, no, documentary scene has exploded in the last five, six years. When I started directing my second and third feature documentaries between the start time in 2018 until they were, like, released 2022, the amount of documentaries went... Like, the numbers went through the roof. Like, now there's everybody that's involved in it, like Disney, Amazon, Netflix, 20th Century. Like, everybody, Fox Searchlight, everybody's doing it, which is good.

40:19Chris LebenzonRight.

40:19Jawad MirIt, you know.

40:20Chris LebenzonNo, it is. I mean, you see, like, I think Frank Marshall even produces. You know, you see, like, big time produced, Brian Grazer and Ron Howard…

40:27Jawad MirYep

40:28Chris Lebenzon... Are making documentary. So it's, it's, it's really, it's really nice. It's really wonderful to see

40:35Jawad MirIt is

40:35Chris Lebenzon... Content. You know, there's a good side to everything now. It's just that the big feature films are, there's a great deal of pressure to make them work. And they cost more than ever. So it's, it's that you feel that pressure as an editor or probably anybody on the set, but certainly in post-production 'cause that's where it all falls, and that's where we start to show it to audiences for... And almost, we never used to do reshoots in movies. We very rarely had to go back. We, I don't, I don't, I don't think we d… I think we did one thing on Top Gun. We made Tom Cruise more, likable, 'cause he i… in the early screenings, he seemed to what, you know, what, Iceman said he was. He was too arrogant. And he delivered us a great moment that helped his character.

41:39Chris LebenzonBut other than that, you know, now, we didn't really do reshoots. And now every movie does them. They're almost built into schedules. Marvel kind of, they do too, I think a couple of them. You know, they, and that's a good thing, but it shows that you just get started with the movie, see where it takes you. You have the money, the pressure's on. You have to deliver a really high quality product that everybody loves. So i… there's a, it's a, it's a community effort, and sometimes just a singular vision is really would reveal a better product, you know, as evidenced by Oppenheimer. I mean, I, Chris Nolan, obviously, I think controlled that whole thing. So I don't think you would've seen that movie coming out of a s… a s… a studio with a lot of voices. I mean, I can't be sure, but, that's just the world we live in now.

42:36Jawad MirYeah. I also find, I mean, this is just from my personal experience, you know, limited resources sometimes, if not most of the time, is a really good thing because I remember my first introduction to editing was VCR to VCR. Like, that's how I used to edit. You know, just for fun, not for money or anything. And then when I went to... I took some film courses, and I learned on flat… flatbed editing, like, you know, just cutting, splicing, taping and everything. And then when I switched to Final Cut Pro, I, my professor told me this, that my editing skills were way ahead of a lot of other students, and I wonder it's because of that experience of limited resources. Because, you know, you have something out small to do, and you're just cutting and splicing, as opposed to digital, you can just do so much, and then it comes, you know, with a flow.

43:28Chris LebenzonYeah, I think there's no question. I mean, you know, in, it… it's the less you have, the more your brain works to make it work. Whereas if you rely on, potential other elements, it may, it may not, it may not come about. But, yeah, no, I get that for sure.

43:53Jawad MirJust kind of going back to Alice in Wonderland just as we wrap up. You know, the film you worked on as an executive producer, you edited it's finished. You know, you do a bunch of test screenings, and it comes out. And, you know, according to Rotten Tomatoes, it was like 55% audience score, 52% critic score, which doesn't really matter at the end of the day, you know, and the film just went out to do the business that it did. Were you guys surprised, or was, you know, like, just at the way it blew up?

44:24Chris LebenzonYeah, especially because to be honest, we didn't have one audience screening on that movie. It, we had terrific producers in Richard Zanuck and Joe Roth. I mean, they both had run studios, and that was a time at Disney when, Robert Iger was taking over, I think, and Dick Cook was…

44:48Chris Lebenzon... Stepping aside right during the shooting. So it was, it, they were in a state of flux, but they left us alone, and the movie was never in a shape to preview, to show an audience with all the visual effects that were outstanding and, blue screen everywhere and characters in green suits, with voices. So we never had to do that o… on Alice. But yeah, it was, I mean, I wasn't even aware that it was doing that kind of business, you know? I just moved on to my next project, and next thing you know, I would, it was, you know, it was, it was, it's, it's really comforting to know that it's being embraced in a financial sense. And I'm, I'm sure for Tim that was welcome news, although he has such a, you know, pretty stellar track record with his box office. But, you know, he s… he sought out at something like Ed Wood, you're, you're never gonna really make money on that movie.

45:47Jawad MirYeah.

45:47Chris LebenzonOr even Sweeney Todd, I mean, it's an R-rated musical. It was a tough sell. It took three studios to pitch in…

45:55Jawad MirYeah

45:55Chris Lebenzon... To even finance it. But it was a, it was a pleasant surprise.

46:01Jawad MirThat's really good to hear. Are you, were you involved in the upcoming Beetlejuice at all?

46:08Chris LebenzonNo. I was busy, and, it was a, it was done at a lower level. It was a very complicated story. But I did, was asked to go view it at a preview in Burbank, and I gave Tim some notes of what I thought and, saw him a couple times since, and you know, I wish him the best of luck on it. I think it comes out very soon.

46:35Jawad MirYeah, September 5th or something like that, I think.

46:39Chris LebenzonYeah, I think. Yeah.

46:40Jawad MirWith… without talking about it, what would you... From what you saw, did you like it? Just a simple yes or no.

46:47Chris LebenzonYes. No, I mean, it was, it was interesting to me to have not worked on it, 'cause it was the first time I hadn't on one of his features. And then just to go into a theater and see that, it was a lot of fun.

47:02Jawad MirThat's good.

47:03Chris LebenzonYeah. No, he creates such a great world and, you know, he's so original, and people who try and do his mo… do his kind of movies, somehow it never works. I mean, I think... Was there a sequel to Alice in Wonderland? I think there might've…

47:19Jawad MirYeah. There was, and I actually looked it up right before, after I finished it. It came out in 2016, and it didn't, it probably did like 300 million worldwide.

47:29Chris Lebenzonhuh.

47:30Jawad MirAnd it, the reviews were even more harsh on that.

47:36Chris LebenzonRight.

47:36Jawad MirI haven't, I haven't seen anything of it, so I don't know. But you're right. I mean, it's just…

47:40Chris Lebenzon'Cause…

47:42Jawad MirThere's only one Michael Bay. There can only be one Michael Bay. You know, there can only be, there can only be one Tim Burton, and I find there's a... What happens, and I, and I see that in, you know, around people that I know as well, is that when you start not identifying your own voice, you know, like your own style, your own approach, you zigzag and try to find different people's approaches. It's fine to get influence here and there, but then you lose who you are, and then that doesn't come out in a natural way on the screen.

48:14Chris LebenzonYeah. No, it's true. It's, I mean, it's true. It's, it's, it's hard. And he is original, and he always has been, and he always will be. So you know, there's, there's, it's been a pleasure working with him for all these years, as well as, everybody else. I've been so fortunate and, you know, I'm continuing at it. I'm, I'm blessed to be called to continue working. I just, I'm, I'm thrilled to be doing this.

48:44Jawad MirThat's, that's amazing. Listen, Chris, on that note, it's been a fantastic ta… you know, time talking to you. I really appreciate your insight, your openness. And if you're up for it, I would love to chat with you as many times as possible on all the films that you worked on and in the future that you're working on, because it's been truly a delight, and I've, I… I've learned so much from watching the work that you have done. Like on a small note, you have no idea how many times I see Crimson Tide the last scene, you know, when, Denzel Washington goes through the steps down on the steps, and they have this…

49:19Chris LebenzonI know

49:19Jawad Mir... Conversation about the horses and, you know…

49:22Chris LebenzonYes

49:23Jawad Mir... And all that, and the music with it and everything. It's, it's incredible. Obviously it's a collaborative effort, but I know having edited features myself, it's, it's, it's not easy, but at the same time it's fun which is what m… what makes it work.

49:40Chris LebenzonYeah. Well, thank you. No, you've been a s… it's been a pleasure, this talk, and I really appreciate it and, anytime you wanna talk about anything, I'm, I'm available or if you're ever out here we could go out and have a lunch or what, whatever you, whatever you're willing or whatever you have time to do would be great to connect.

50:00Jawad MirI would love to. That'd be my honor, and thank you so much for the invitation. I'm looking forward to chatting much more.

50:06Chris LebenzonOkay. Thank you again.