Netflix's 'Terminator Zero': Composers Break Silence 🎶

0:00Guest 1We flip back and forth. We work, we don't separate cues, like divide them between us. We work on the same cues, and we start by writing together and jamming in a room, and then when it comes to, like, really scoring picture, we, take turns going back and forth working on the same cue. So it's, like, just editing.

0:20Guest 2Which is really helpful, 'cause sometimes you…

0:22Guest 1Yeah

0:22Guest 2... You hit a place with a cue, you're like, "Oh, is this done? Okay, is this..." Like, and you have someone to be like, "Oh, no, this sucks," or…

0:28Guest 1Yeah

0:28Guest 2... "This is, this is how we should take it." And I don't know, I feel like best, whatever serves the film. That's kind of the guiding principle. And, you know, we definitely kill our babies a lot 'cause…

0:43Guest 1Your ego is stripped out of it…

0:44Guest 2Completely

0:45Guest 1... Because we don't know, at this point, we can't remember for the most part who came up with what idea in the score. Like, and it doesn't matter…

0:53Guest 2Yeah

0:53Guest 1... Because you're a duo.

1:02Jawad MirYou know, it's very unusual to have a couple, in, i… in the film industry sort of as even like a duo director or even, maybe producer, yes. I know, Walter Parkes and Laurie MacDonald were, but as music composers, I've never come across that. So before we even get to Terminator Zero, how did this happen?

1:27Guest 1That's a good question.

1:28Guest 2That is a good... I mean, we started out as, like indie band kids in New York, so we both had our separate bands. And we actually never, like played together for a very long time. We didn't even consider working together until, you know, maybe like four or five years ago. Five years ago?

1:52Guest 1Six years, yeah. Yeah.

1:53Guest 2Yeah. And it wasn't until Michelle started scoring films. I was just doing the indie thing.

2:01Guest 1Yeah. I started scoring people's short films and indie films, and, just sort of doing my... I had a band called Birch at the time, and people would ask me, just like, "Do the Birch sound." So I did that, and then we had the opportunity to score this film called Asking For It, which was a really great indie feature. And Kevin decided to join me.

2:24Guest 2For the most part.

2:25Guest 1For the most part. I think I gave him additional music credit on that one.

2:28Guest 2We started out scoring together, and then I had, like, three tours that year, and it just got crazy. But yeah.

2:35Guest 1Yeah.

2:35Guest 2Ever since, we've been working together.

2:37Jawad MirThat's awesome. So would it be fair to say that Terminator Zero, the series on Netflix that comes out on August 29th, is the first major project that you guys have done together?

2:48Guest 2I would say first major series.

2:50Jawad MirSeries

2:50Guest 2... The, yeah, we did, we did Mattson's last, film, Mother Android. And so that was…

2:58Guest 1Which was a Hulu film.

2:59Guest 2Yeah. Yeah.

3:00Guest 1And then we did a docuseries together called The Lesbian Bar Project. But this is our first…

3:06Guest 2Yeah

3:06Guest 1... Series, yeah.

3:07Guest 2Yeah. It's, it's fair to say.

3:10Jawad MirThat's pretty cool. That's really cool. And, you know, be… before we dive into Terminator Zero, which I've seen the first three episodes of, we got access to the first four.

3:22Guest 1Great.

3:22Jawad MirGreat, by the way. What, how, what familiar yet, how much familiar were you with the Terminator world?

3:31Guest 2With, I mean, T1 and T2, very familiar.

3:35Guest 1Yeah.

3:36Guest 2Grew up with those movies.

3:37Jawad MirYeah

3:38Guest 2... Some of the past movies, a little less so, but, T1 was very much, like, the Holy Grail.

3:48Jawad Mir100%.

3:49Guest 1Yeah.

3:49Jawad MirWhat about you, Michelle?

3:51Guest 1Same for me. Yeah, I think I came to the Terminator films a little bit later. It wasn't, like, childhood. I didn't see it… Wait, how old were you?

3:57Guest 2Your dad didn't show it to you?

3:58Guest 1Yeah, my dad didn't show it to me when I was five.

4:00Guest 2No, not when I was five.

4:02Guest 1But I think I started, I watched the first two as a teenager and absolutely loved them, so I have not seen anything since the first two, I will admit. But the first two, I'm obsessed with, and I know that those are favorites among people.

4:21Guest 2Yeah.

4:21Jawad MirI don't think you're missing anything significant…

4:24Guest 1Yeah.

4:24Jawad Mir... After the first two.

4:25Guest 1Yeah.

4:26Jawad MirI don't even, I think there was five or six. I think one of them is with, what's his name? Oh, God. The guy who was playing Batman.

4:37Guest 2Christian Bale.

4:37Jawad MirFamous…

4:37Guest 2Yeah.

4:38Jawad MirYeah, Christian Bale.

4:39Guest 2Yeah.

4:40Jawad MirThen there was one with John O'Connor, but played by a different actor. I think Claire Danes was in it. I think that was the third one, I'm guessing.

4:48Guest 2Yeah.

4:49Jawad MirAnd which is somewhat along the same concept, I shouldn't say concept, in terms of, the whole Skynet thing, which was major in this third one. I think that was the third one. It's similar to what's taking place in Terminator Zero, but completely different story.

5:05Guest 2Yeah.

5:06Jawad MirWhat, how did this start? How did Terminator Zero come on, you know, to your plate of doing the projects?

5:17Guest 1Yeah. We were working on the showrunner, Mattson Tomlin, his… ... Directorial debut, his feature film called Mother Android. And during that, he just mentioned to us that he was writing this Terminator anime. And the way that we've always worked with him is write him music first and apologize later. So we sent him, we just secretly worked on, like, an album's worth of music, and then sent it to him. Luckily, he really loved it. I think at that point we'd been working with him enough to know, like, what his general vibe was and what he was sort of looking for. So he took that music, and then we were talking about this last night, it was… That was in 2021?

6:05Guest 2Spring of 2021.

6:06Guest 1We sent him that music, and it wasn't for over a year later that we had the opportunity to finally come onto the project and, like, sort of at that point audition. He was working with Production I.G. In Japan, who did all the amazing animation.

6:23Guest 1... They were not intending to hire an American composer, I believe.

6:29Guest 2No.

6:29Guest 1But Mattson had put this, these mu… this batch of music into their library, so they actually had chosen all of these songs of ours, or cues, and were animating to them at the time. So when it came time to actually hire a composer, they were like, "Well, we're not gonna hire an American, but who did this? Who did these?" And he was like…

6:50Guest 1... "These Americans." So we had a whole process where we sort of were on a trial basis for the first episode, finally got hired on the second.

6:59Guest 2Very stressful.

7:00Guest 1A very stressful process. And then after that second episode, it was just smooth sailing. Everyone was on the same page, and it was awesome.

7:08Jawad MirWhen you say it was stressful process, care to elaborate?

7:13Guest 2It was just... You know, it's a big franchise, and…

7:16Jawad MirYeah

7:16Guest 2... There was a lot of pressure. You know, we had done this music back in 2021, so there was a lot riding on, like, actually getting this. And, you know, God, I remember getting, like, the first batch of notes from the first episode, and one of them from the producers... All of the notes, by the way, were just fantastic, which is really rare in…

7:42Guest 1Yeah

7:42Guest 2... In this world. And… ... One of them said, like, "We really just, like, want you to, like, be yourself." And I feel like there was moments where we were like, "Oh, well, it has to be bigger." Like, "We have to do this because it's this big thing." And we got that note, and then from there on out, we were just like, "All right. Let's just do what sounds cool." And that just guided us…

8:02Guest 1Yeah

8:02Guest 2... Throughout the whole series. And then the stress started dissipating and, yeah.

8:08Guest 1Yeah. It was about four months, I think, of writing music for them, being in contact…... Writing this first episode, and then finding out we actually got the job.

8:17Guest 2Yeah.

8:19Jawad MirYeah, that can be stressful just…

8:21Guest 1Yeah

8:21Jawad Mir... The waiting time to see if it…

8:23Guest 1Yes

8:23Jawad Mir... If it goes through or not. But interestingly, you know, when I started watching the first episode and the music kicked in, so, you know, when you think about Terminator and music, you know, you think about the theme, right?

8:35Guest 2Yeah.

8:35Jawad MirLike, the main theme. Y… you know, when I began watching it, now I don't know if this is the final, version that I ha… It is the final version that I've seen, but I'm not sure if there is actually opening credits in the one that's gonna be released. I didn't see it, so I have no idea.

8:52Guest 2No.

8:53Guest 1No, there's not. Yeah.

8:53Guest 2Yeah.

8:54Jawad MirThere is not? Okay.

8:55Guest 1No.

8:55Jawad MirSo I was expecting some sort of, you know, like a montage with the Terminator 2 theme… ... Or Terminator 1 theme. And when that didn't happen, I was really pleased because it made the series on its, like, its own series, despite, you know, even though it's…

9:10Guest 1Yeah

9:10Jawad Mir... Connected to the Terminator universe. And the music was really cool, in a sense that it was not overpowering the, you know, the characters or the story, and it was, it was futuristic. It was sci-fi. There was human element in there. So I really, you know, enjoyed it, and I was trying to pay attention to music, but the best thing that ever can happen to a film or a series is that when you stop paying attention to the music because it just immerses you into the story…

9:38Jawad Mir... And then you're wrapped up around that. And then obviously the music is going in your, you know, subconscious to, for you to be hooked on, but I thought it was really fabulous. I hope there is some sort of an, soundtrack released, 'cause I would love to listen to it on its own. I'm not kidding.

9:52Guest 2Yeah, it's in the works.

9:53Guest 1It's in the works.

9:54Jawad MirIn the works. Okay, awesome.

9:55Guest 2But, man, that's just so... Thank you so much for saying that, 'cause we... You never know, you know? We've been in this project for so long, so hearing that you just got wrapped up in it, that's very exciting. That's really cool to hear.

10:08Guest 1Yeah. And it was really nice. They let us... I mean, everyone was on the same page. This is a... It's in the canon of Terminator, but it is a different project. It is a completely different story. It takes place in Japan. It's anime.

10:20Guest 1Like, we wanted to differentiate from the original films. The only one request that we had was to include…... The drum line in our sort of version of the theme…

10:30Jawad MirYeah

10:30Guest 1... Which happens at the very end of episode one.

10:32Guest 2Yeah.

10:32Jawad MirYeah.

10:32Guest 1So you get the da.

10:35Guest 2Yeah.

10:35Jawad MirYeah.

10:35Guest 1A couple times.

10:36Guest 2That's it.

10:37Guest 1And then it's... But yeah, other than that, separate.

10:40Jawad MirYeah, no, the, it was really cool to feel it, to see it. You know, kinda go, jumping off Terminator, or we can talk about Terminator, but as a husband and wife duo, right? Being married is tough by itself, as you can imagine, right? And you mix this in, what kind of... You know, what's the whole, agreement/disagreement…

11:10Guest 1Yeah

11:10Jawad Mir... That goes behind in making, and how do you guys cope with it, trying to make it professional/personal?

11:15Guest 1should I answer?

11:18Guest 2Yeah, you can.

11:20Guest 1It's nice because I've collaborated with other people in the past, and when you're collaborating with a friend or a stranger who you just met, you have to be kinda careful when giving notes, and you have to be, you know, polite and delicate. And luckily, I think 10 and a half years into this relationship, we're past the point of having to be polite and delicate, which is very nice when it comes to the creative process. We tend to just sort of, like, duke it out when we disagree and, like, debate. But then at the, at the same time, it's like I kind of compare it to always having an editor with you.

11:58Guest 1And you're just editing during the process. So we flip back and forth. We work... We don't separate cues. Like… Divide them between us. We work on the same cues, and we start by writing together and jamming in a room. And then when it comes to, like, really scoring picture, we, take turns going back and forth working on the same cue. So it's, like, just editing.

12:22Guest 2Which is really helpful 'cause sometimes…

12:24Guest 1Yeah

12:24Guest 2... You hit a place with a cue, you're like, "Oh, is this done? Okay, is this..." Like, and you have someone to be like, "Oh, no, this sucks." Or…

12:30Guest 1Yeah

12:30Guest 2... "This is, this is how we should take it." And I don't know, I feel like best, whatever serves the film. That's kind of the guiding principle. And, you know, we definitely kill our babies a lot. 'Cause…

12:44Guest 1Your ego is stripped out of it…

12:46Guest 2Completely

12:47Guest 1... Because we don't know, at this point, we can't remember for the most part who came up with what idea in the score. Like, and it doesn't matter…

12:55Guest 2Yeah

12:55Guest 1... Because you're a duo. So it's like…

12:56Guest 2It's all going to the same place

12:57Guest 1... It's kind of nice in that regard, and we also have different skills that we bring to the table. So yeah. But personally, to separate work and personal life, we can still work on that. We're not exactly a…

13:12Jawad MirYou know…

13:13Guest 1... Still hit and miss, but…

13:14Jawad MirI… it's really cool to hear that, you know, you can't remember who created what because that's when you… ... Know you're working for the project as opposed to, you know, for yourselves. Which we all do to a certain extent. I mean, you know, there is a little bit of that…

13:27Guest 1Yeah

13:27Jawad Mir... Which is natural. But just to overall the great… the greater picture is, you know, the project, the film, the series.

13:34Guest 1Yeah. 100%.

13:39Jawad MirAbsolutely. Have you seen the series?

13:42Guest 2Yeah.

13:42Jawad MirOr any of the episodes?

13:43Guest 2Oh, I have. You…

13:45Jawad MirOkay

13:45Guest 2... You have not seen it all.

13:46Guest 1I'm waiting.

13:47Guest 2Yeah.

13:47Guest 1I'm waiting until it comes out to watch the final.

13:50Jawad MirOkay.

13:50Guest 1Yeah.

13:52Jawad MirSo maybe, the question would be to sort of, you know, in terms of what you saw, the version that you saw and i… the music that has, i… that is in it, and the storyline itself, we don't wanna talk about the story but just, you know, the overall, the feel of it. What, as a viewer, forget that you're a composer, what kind of, emotions, whatever they are, kind of ran through when you were watching an episode or two episode or the entire series?

14:30Guest 2That's a good question.

14:31Guest 1I think there is a lot of existential dread. Which... But it's also incredibly beautiful because, without giving away anything, it centers around a family.

14:46Guest 2Yeah

14:46Guest 1... So there is a lot of love.

14:49Guest 2Yeah.

14:50Guest 1And there is this balance between existential dread and, like, maybe the world's gonna end and, like, judgment day is coming, and there's also the love you have for your family. And, trying to save the world, trying to save your family, and just trying to exist. It's really, it's a really beautiful story, which can apply to the world right now. It feels relevant.

15:22Jawad MirE… every day does. But let me, let me rephrase the question. So, as a director myself, when I am done with a film, right, and we do a bunch of screenings or if it's playing at a theater or whatnot, it's, there are times when, you know, you forget about how it was made, right? Because you are immersed into it. Especially later on in the process, like when the film's done, people have seen it, you've attended a lot of screenings. But in the first couple of screenings, for me at least, it's really hard to be an audience, 'cause then you start thinking about, oh, this is what this is like, this is what, how, this is how we did that.

16:02Jawad MirThis is not right. Did that go through you, when you were watching it at all?

16:08Guest 2Y… yeah, I can't be an audience member at this point.

16:10Jawad MirYeah. See, so the…

16:11Guest 2It's, it's just…

16:12Jawad Mir... It's a universal problem

16:12Guest 2... I'm... Yeah, no. Especially ever since we started this journey of scoring, I feel like e… even movies, like I have a really hard time being an a… now I'm just, like, constantly keyed into the music. And when it's ours, it's just amplified…

16:28Guest 1Yeah

16:28Guest 2... To, like, the 100th degree. Like, I, yeah. I, and I'm critical, and I'm like, oh, you know, I'm always just like, "Ah, ooh, a…"

16:37Guest 1Yeah

16:37Guest 2... Just having a hard time. But

16:40Guest 1Yeah, 100%. Same

16:41Guest 2... But at the same time, there was a sense after I watched it all of just being, like, really proud of all the work that we did on it, and I'm just really excited for it to come out, so.

16:55Jawad MirYeah. I remember one of the first time Netflix announced it, which I'm guessing was four or five months ago, they just announced Terminator Zero. That's it, like it was just the logo. I was so excited just because, you know, it's Terminator. Like, Terminator 1 and 2 is, like, you know, your childhood, especially the second one because it's about a teenager, and most of us, you know…

17:15Guest 1Yeah

17:15Jawad Mir... Grew up with that film in that same age.

17:18Guest 2Yeah.

17:18Jawad MirBut it's just an incredible piece of series from a story from anime. It's kind of, my kids, they're really into anime. So I told them, that, you know, I showed them the trailer and they really wanted to see it. And when I began watching I'm like, "I don't think this is for the kids."

17:38Guest 2Yeah. A little older, maybe.

17:39Jawad MirSo I'm like, I'm like, "You can't watch it." I wasn't ex… I mean, it's a Terminator, but I wasn't expecting it to be an anime, even though animes are very targeted towards the older audience.

17:48Guest 2Yeah.

17:48Jawad MirBut yeah, they were really looking forward to it. I mean, my daughter especially, she saw the trailer. She's like, "I wanna see this." I'm like, "I don't know if you can." Just like, yeah.

17:55Guest 1It's a little violent.

17:57Guest 2Yeah.

17:57Guest 1Just a little.

17:58Guest 2Yeah. Yeah.

17:58Jawad MirYeah.

17:59Guest 2I don't know what age group, but, a little higher.

18:01Jawad MirYeah. They're, they're, they're young. They're, you know, around 11, 12. So they're young.

18:05Guest 1Okay.

18:05Jawad MirEspecially

18:07Guest 2Four years.

18:08Jawad MirYeah. Especially the, I won't reveal the scene, but when the… I'm just trying to find the right way of saying it. There's a bridge scene in the first ep… the second episode, which, you know, you're talking about.

18:20Guest 2Yes. Yes.

18:20Jawad MirLike, that stuff that unfolded there, I was not expecting it. Even though I knew it was, you know, it said…...the discretion and everything. I'm like, "Whoa, this came out of nowhere."

18:30Guest 1Yeah.

18:30Jawad MirBut it was cool to see at the same time, you know, from a creative standpoint.

18:34Guest 2Yeah. Good.

18:35Guest 1Yeah.

18:38Jawad MirMichelle, how did you get into scoring?

18:42Guest 1My... I had a friend who, she had directed one of my music videos. I was... I had a band in the city and was really focused on that. And I had actually interned for a composer, Elliot Goldenthal. I was his, like…

18:59Jawad MirOh

18:59Guest 1... Social media intern. So I worked for him for a couple years. I think I probably left that experience feeling like, "Oh, I don't think I have what it takes to be a composer," just seeing, you know, he's brilliant. And I started really doing the band thing and,.. Our cat is meowing. I hope you can't hear her in the other room.

19:24Jawad MirI can hear. It's fine. It's fine.

19:26Guest 1Sorry. Okay. Yeah.

19:29Jawad MirYou, it, you guys wouldn't be composing Terminator if you didn't have a cat, so.

19:32Guest 1If I didn't have a cat, that's true. So anyway, I, had a director friend who had done one of my music videos, and she was, directing her first short film, and she asked me to score it, and I almost said no because I guess I had very low self-confidence. Luckily, I said yes, because it was, like, kind of the best experience ever, and really made me realize that this is what I wanna be doing. I realized I was excited to wake up in the mornings, who work in that capacity.

20:02Guest 1And I was not excited to wake up in the morning to write my own songs and beg people to come to my shows and all of that. So it was the start of me turning in the scoring direction, versus the songwriting and performing direction.

20:18Jawad MirThat's so cool. I, you know, you mentioned Elliot. I watched, after a long time, Alien 3.

20:25Guest 1Oh, yeah.

20:25Jawad MirWhich was David Fincher's first film, and I was completely surprised how good that film was, and Elliot did the score…

20:34Guest 1Yeah

20:34Jawad Mir... On that film. So if you, if you haven't seen Alien 3 in a while, or you haven't seen it at all…

20:39Guest 1Yeah, it's worth the time

20:40Jawad Mir... Aside from few terrible full alien CGI effects, it's a really good film. It's actually a really good film.

20:48Guest 2Nice.

20:48Jawad MirI was really surprised.

20:49Guest 1Nice.

20:50Jawad MirYou know, going back to, Terminator Zero, what... Do you remember the first time you guys saw the finished, or at least, I think only Kevin has seen it, right? So

21:06Guest 2We've seen some of the finished.

21:07Guest 1I've seen some of the finished stuff, yeah.

21:11Jawad MirThe feeling, do you remember that when you saw the images of something that you worked on, it's complete. Not trying to be like, you know, not necessarily a negative way being ego… egocentric, but at the same time, we're all human beings. Like, you know, you feel proud about what you've done. What was that feeling for both of you separately, if you can answer?

21:30Guest 2I mean, for me, I was just, I was just so proud of the team. The... It looked beautiful. I mean, we had, we had done the whole score, you know, from month by month at a time getting animatics in. So we've never, we never saw anything, like, fully colored in.

21:48Guest 2And so just to see, just to see how beautiful it was, it was just really exciting. 'Cause I love anime, and you never know what type of thing you're gonna get, in a project, and it's just, they blew it out of the water, and just seeing, just seeing the artwork was really special, and exciting for me.

22:11Guest 1Yeah. I felt the same way. I think I'm still having a hard time, like you said before, separating, you know, my role in it and the music and being critical. But seeing it was amazing, and I think I'm still... I don't know if this will ever go away, or if this is, I don't know, what happens when it's like you're still young in this career. But I'm still just blown away when things actually come together, and are done…

22:39Jawad MirIt's, it…

22:39Guest 1... And are made

22:41Jawad Mir... It's an amazing feeling, isn't it? Like, just…

22:43Guest 1Yeah.

22:43Guest 2Yeah.

22:43Jawad MirYou know, you spent like…

22:44Guest 1So cool

22:45Jawad Mir... Four or five years something on something, and sometimes you get so wrapped up in it that you don't see a lot of things that a first-time audience member would, but it still holds a special place in your heart because of the story behind what you've done, like how you came…

22:58Jawad Mir... To be where you are.

22:59Guest 1Yeah.

23:00Jawad MirThere's a lot of new composers now. I recently spoke to, Logan Nelson, who did, Elizabeth: The Lost Tapes. I think the gentleman name was Marcus Norris. He did, Lady in the Lake Apple series.

23:15Guest 1Oh, yeah.

23:16Guest 2Oh, yeah.

23:16Jawad MirAnd, you know, a lot of new talent that's popping out, which is great to see. And one of the things that I find very interesting, is trying to sort of stay true to classical music as well as the music from the '80s, '70s, '90s.

23:34Jawad MirAnd I, it's really pleased to see that. Who do you guys look up to when you're trying to, you know, not necessarily score, but just be inspired by? He or she could be from the 1800s, 1900s.

23:52Guest 2I mean, I feel like the gold standard for us has always been Trent and Atticus. They just, like, opened this world up to a different way of scoring that just got us really excited. Also, Johan Johansson, Mica Levi. Just… Experimental, bold, feelings. I don't know. I get…

24:19Guest 1Yeah

24:19Guest 2... Really excited about those types of scores. Like Arrival is one of my… ... Favorite scores of all time.

24:24Guest 1Yeah.

24:25Guest 2That is a good score.

24:26Guest 1Lots of clicking for us.

24:27Guest 2Yeah.

24:27Guest 1Yeah. I think we both, because we both come from... I mean, I studied, you know, classical music in college, but I really come from like a indie rock background. So I think I've always been drawn to composers who, like, challenge the status quo.

24:44Guest 2Like, I mean, John Cage was my favorite composer in college, just doing the craziest things that no one had ever done before, and thinking about music totally differently. So I think we're both really drawn to that kind of composer. And Trent and Atticus I feel like sort of blew the lid off what film composing could be. And with… when Social Network came out, I remember watching it and being like, "Oh, I could do this. Like, this is what I wanna do." 'cause it just showed what's, what's possible. So I'm really excited about the direction that film music is going in right now.

25:23Guest 1That's so cool. You know, I remember in the '90s, there were two people that I sort of grew up with. I'm a huge movie score fan, like I've been listening to scores since Last of the Mohicans came out, 1492: Conquest of Paradise, you know, Evangelist and all them. But the two people that really did it for me in terms of score who I still listen to that broke that status quo, one of them…

25:46Guest 1... Hans Zimmer, right? Hans Zimmer completely took music into a different direction. And another gentleman, who started the age of 16, and he won the Oscar for Slumdog Billionaire. With…

25:57Guest 2Yeah

25:58Guest 1... A.R. Rahman. If you listen to his first album he ever did, and there's even an instrumental track of it online, on Apple Music. At the age of 16, just with a keyboard, he created something that nobody has even come close to creating it to this day. So it's this... Because he's tried something completely…

26:21Guest 2Yeah

26:21Guest 1... New. Like fresh… ... Right? And that's, that's what I find a lot of times we're afraid of doing, but that's… ... What's the missing sauce is, no matter what… ... You're trying to do.

26:32Guest 2Yeah. Totally.

26:34Guest 1Yeah. Tell me about your team. Yeah. We…

26:41Guest 2How big is it?

26:42Guest 1... Don't have a, much of a team.

26:44Guest 2Well…

26:44Guest 1Well, we do have a team, okay.

26:46Guest 2Well, you guys said team, so I'm going by that.

26:48Guest 1We have a... You know, we're, the two of us are the only composers.

26:52Guest 2Okay

26:53Guest 1... We work with Ariel Lowe for mixing.

26:56Guest 2Yes.

26:57Guest 1Ariel Lowe is also the, music editor on this. Longtime collaborator with them. Kevin's recorded every album.

27:05Guest 2Every album I've ever recorded since I was 18.

27:08Guest 1Yes.

27:08Guest 2Been a staple.

27:10Guest 1And then we worked with, Katherine Joy and her team at Joy Music House, for like orchestrating for the choir in which we recorded in London, with the London Contemporary Orchestra Choir, which was amazing.

27:28Guest 2With Hugh Brunt

27:29Guest 1With Hugh Brunt compose… or conducting.

27:31Guest 2Yeah

27:31Guest 1Which was a phenomenal experience.

27:34Guest 2That was very cool.

27:35Guest 1But yeah, other than that, we don't have an assistant yet. That'd be nice someday.

27:40Guest 2Yeah, just keep trading off.

27:43Guest 1Just keep... There's two of us, so you know.

27:46Guest 2If that helps.

27:46Guest 1No, that's good. You know, what's the pr… I mean, I kind of have an idea, but at the same time always curious to know. I know when I listen to good music, I don't... I wish I had learned how to make music. I don't know anything about how to make music, right? Like the notes and all that stuff. But what's the process for you, whether it's on Terminator Zero or, any other project where that, to get the get, to get the right theme or track or, you know, to, just to get that piece of work right for a particular scene, what do you guys go through? Like, you know, if there's a scene of X, Y, Z trying to save A, B, C and there's an emotional element involved, like what's the process that you guys have of trying to get to that place where the director says, "Yeah, this is it"? You wanna go?

28:41Guest 2Yeah. I, well, I feel like it usually starts with one of us, being like, "Oh, I think I have an idea." If someone like raises their hands like, "Oh, I think I've got a sense here. Let me try," like s… putting the foot forward, one of us will sit down and just start. For me, it comes with sounds first. I like really need to write…

29:06Guest 1Yeah

29:06Guest 2... With like the specific sounds in mind. So I am experimenting with, synths and guitar and affecting things right off the bat, to like find the mood. I've just always worked that way. But with Michelle, I feel like you attack it very differently.

29:29Guest 1I think I'm much more melody driven, so I usually start at the piano or singing into a microphone. And that's sort of where I s… I start, with the melody, and then I build around that. And what's kinda cool being a duo is because he starts with sound and I start with melody, you're sort of attacking it from two different…

29:50Guest 2Yeah

29:50Guest 1... Angles. Which I think helps things come together much faster…

29:54Guest 2Totally

29:55Guest 1... Than if I were alone.

29:58Guest 2And a lo… yeah, a lot of times we'll just map it out first and then…

30:01Guest 1Right

30:01Guest 2... Like, I don't know, there'll be a couple beats that we haven't hit yet, and then we'll just slowly like be like, "Okay, well, this has to end here and we need to bring it up here and,"

30:11Guest 1It's like a puzzle.

30:12Guest 2It is. And then we send it to... I mean, how we've worked with Matsson is very collaborative of just getting it to the place that we feel good about it, sending it to Matsson… He weighs in and is like, "Oh yeah, this is, this is feeling good," or, "Try this right here." And do that back and forth before it goes, you know, gets shipped off to Netflix or Production IG, then potentially get their notes.

30:40Jawad MirThat's amazing. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, I always find when you are making a film, when you're directing a film, at least you have a script, right? When you are editing a film, at least you have the footage.

30:54Jawad MirBut when you're writing a film or writing music… ... It's just somewhere up there, right? And you have to sort of bring it together, and that's where all the magic... It starts. Not to take away from any other elements of production, but that's where it all starts.

31:08Guest 2Totally.

31:08Jawad MirSo it… it's a very d… to… very tough job that you guys do, but…

31:12Guest 1Yeah

31:12Jawad Mir... You know, at the same time, it's, it's amazing what you do, so totally cool.

31:17Guest 1It's really fun.

31:18Guest 2Sometimes it can be terrifying, but…

31:20Jawad MirOh, I know. I know

31:21Guest 2... It's really fun.

31:22Jawad MirWell, you know, Ste… Steve Jobs said it, and he probably said it really better than I will rephrase it, is that if you don't love what you do, you know, you'll, you'll quit, because you have to be crazy not to quit. So, you know, that's, that's…

31:37Guest 1Totally

31:38Jawad Mir... That's the bottom line. That's the bottom line in anything that you…

31:40Guest 1Yeah

31:41Jawad Mir... Totally love doing.

31:42Guest 1Absolutely.

31:42Jawad Mir'Cause there's tons of... I think there's more moments than you will quit, as opposed to let's just stay focused, but the fact that you really enjoy it just keeps you know, whole.

31:52Guest 1Keeps you going.

31:52Guest 2Yeah.

31:53Jawad MirYeah.

31:53Guest 1100%.

31:54Guest 2Yeah.

31:55Jawad MirWhat's next for you guys? Anything that you're working on that you can chat about or…

31:59Guest 2Yeah

31:59Jawad Mir... Taking a break?

32:00Guest 1Yeah.

32:01Guest 2Well, we've, we've got a horror that we're working on right now. We can't really say…

32:06Jawad MirOkay

32:06Guest 2... Too mu… yeah.

32:06Guest 1Yeah.

32:06Guest 2We can't say too much more than that.

32:08Jawad MirYeah.

32:08Guest 2But, yeah, we've got that cooking. And, I'm still writing music, so I'm, I'm trying to finish another album, just on my side project, Cape Francis. And, yeah, we've just been doing that. What else?

32:24Guest 1Got some things down the pipeline…

32:27Guest 2Yeah

32:27Guest 1... That we also can't...

32:30Guest 2Nothing.

32:30Guest 1But we're still going.

32:32Jawad MirAmazing. I haven't, like I said, I've only seen three of the, I think it's eight part series, right? The Terminator Zero?

32:38Guest 1Yeah.

32:38Jawad MirYeah. So I haven't gotten access to the last four, but I'm hoping, or I'm assuming, obviously it depends on how it does, there's a second season, unless it's a miniseries. Don't know. I don't wanna know. I'm just talking out loud. Wonderful. Anything else you guys wanna add?

32:57Guest 1I don't think so.

32:58Guest 2No, this was great.

32:59Guest 1Yeah.

32:59Guest 2Thank you so much.

33:00Guest 1Thank you so much for having us.

33:02Jawad MirNo, thank you. Thank you

33:03Guest 1Great questions.

33:05Jawad MirGreat. I'm glad you guys had a good time. It w… it's a great series. You guys did an amazing job in composing the music. Like I said earlier…

33:12Guest 1Thank you

33:12Jawad Mir... Terminator Zero, starts August 29th on Netflix.

33:16Guest 1Yeah.

33:16Jawad MirSo really looking forward for people to sort of, you know, connect to you guys and your music, 'cause it's really totally worth it on its own as well as with the series.

33:24Guest 2Thanks so much.

33:25Guest 1Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

33:28Jawad MirThank you so much, guys. You have yourself a great time.

33:30Guest 2You too.

33:30Guest 1You too.

33:31Guest 2See you.

33:31Guest 1Bye.

33:31Jawad MirBye.