'City of God', Cinematographer, César Charlone

0:00César CharloneHe was called by a big, television channel, TV Globo, to do an episode for a series. And Fernando said, "No, sorry, I'm very busy preparing my feature film here so I won't be able." So they insisted so much and they said, "Well, do something related to your film if you want." And Fernando said, "Ah, okay." So he got an, a chapter of the film, o… of the book City of God, adapted it and did a short feature and we shot this short, episode for a Brazilian series in the style of City of God six months prior to that. And that was the best thing that happened because we were able to rehearse, prepare…

1:00Jawad MirLooking forward to ch… chatting with you about Constant Gardener and, City of God. Let's start with the City of God first.

1:10César CharloneYes.

1:11Jawad MirI think that was before Constant Gardener, right, 2002?

1:15César CharloneYes. Yes.

1:16Jawad MirYeah

1:16César CharloneCity of God, City of God was the film that kind of, because we were, filmmakers working in Brazil, in South America and nobody knew about us. But City of God had such a good luck…

1:32Jawad MirYeah

1:33César Charlone... And such a good projection that we ended up being known. And then we got the invitation to do Constant Gardener and all the other films that came after that. So City of God was the…

1:47Jawad MirYeah, no, that's, that's great. Then... Go ahead, please.

1:54César CharloneNo, the, that City of God was the film that made it all because, you know, as I said, we were living in Brazil working for the Brazilian film industry and n… didn't have any, idea that we could, you know, go international. And because of... Well, what happened, actually what I, what I say is there was, there was like a tendency to look at South American films because, the world had gone kind of tired of, all... Because before that it was the Iran… Iranian films, you know.

2:40César CharloneThere was this tendency, this interest for the Iranian, cinema. So I mean, I think that cycle like had kind of ended. The world was a little bit, you know, looking for something different. And then, South American films appeared and the film one, the first one that appeared was, Central Station, Walter Salles' C… Central Station. Then, González Iñárritu, Amores perros.

3:12César CharloneAnd you know, that, made the international film, critics and world look at South America and then after that, came City of God and, you know. As I, as I always joke, I say, Central Station knocked at the door. Amores perros opened a little gap and City of God just pushed the door open and went in. That's kind of what happened in a way. And yes, we got a lot of, a lot of attention because of City of God. And another thing that happened that was very funny and very lucky was that, Miramax had City of God and, it had also, the Brooklyn, gang, the gangster of...

4:21César CharloneThat film of gangsters of Brooklyn.

4:28Jawad MirNew York?

4:28César CharloneYeah.

4:29Jawad MirGangs of New York by Martin Scorsese?

4:31César CharloneGangs of New York. Yes. Yes. Yes.

4:33Jawad MirYeah.

4:33César CharloneSo it was in the similar, in a similar subject. So because, Miramax had invested so much in Gangs of New York, they kind of boycotted City of God because they had it also in order to, you know, not have two films in the same line. So…

4:57Jawad MirRight

4:57César Charlone... What happened was the film people discovered City of God and started, demanding the Miramax people, Weinstein and them, "Why don't you show this film?" You know, and so and so. So what happened was, after the year of, Gangs of New York, and City of God kept, hidden, he decided to relaunch City of God the next year and, you know, and that was with the support of lots of film people that had, you know, discovered. And it's, it's typical in cinema that what, you know, when you find something strange coming from a strange place like, you know, in Brazil or something like that, you feel that you have a gem or something. So that's what happened. We were, we were kind of protected by lots of, film people that… Thought that, you know, City of God had to be seen.

6:09César CharloneSo we got pushed up and you know, I remember, I remember being called, I was filming in Brazil, being called by Tony Scott, that… ... Wanted to do Man on Fire. And he had seen City of God, and he wanted Man on Fire to be as close as possible... Hold on. As close as possible to City of God. So, people tell me that they would walk into his company and he would be walking around the company with, a tape of City of God under his arm, and he would say, "Come in. Let me show you something." And he was, you know... And when he did Man on Fire, he wanted to call the editor, the actors, me. You know, he wanted as much of the crew of City of God working with him in that, in that film. So yeah, City of God was a very favorable accident that projected us. And because of that, afterwards came, Constant Gardener and other films.

7:28Jawad MirYeah. So City of God, I remember, I saw Constant Gardener before I saw City of God.

7:34César CharloneRight.

7:34Jawad MirI remember in those year, in those years, I remember seeing the poster. I never saw the film, until 2019, I saw the film. That was, and I think I mentioned this to you earlier when I was, making one of my films, somebody had suggested to me watch the opening sequence of City of God just to get some, you know, inspiration to find a hook to your story. And I started watching that, and that, the opening sequence itself is enough. I think the first 10 seconds are enough to pull you in and not let you go. That's what's so incredible about it. You know, from the standpoint of being in people's spaces, in the actors' spaces, in the characters' spaces, then the editing, direction, everything was just so fresh. Like you said, like, you know, the gem. And that's what Hollywood does. Like n… right now, nowadays, South Korean films are pretty big, right? Like, that's…

8:29César CharloneYes

8:29Jawad Mir... That's the new trend now.

8:31César CharloneYes.

8:31Jawad MirBut City of God, when I was watching it, the first thing it reminded me of completely different films, but in t… no, in terms of the way they were shot and the way they were edited, but similar, not similar, but themes were similar. Have you read the book or seen the film Outsiders?

8:52César CharloneNo.

8:53Jawad MirSo The Outsiders is a story of two gangs. It's written by S.E. Hinton, and it was directed by Francis Ford Coppola…

9:03César CharloneWow

9:03Jawad Mir... Right after Apocalypse Now.

9:05César CharloneOh.

9:05Jawad MirTom Cruise, Tom Cruise's first film with, like, a supporting role, like three-minute role is in there. Matt Dillon, Patrick Swayze. Great movie. So that…

9:16César CharloneOutsiders

9:16Jawad Mir... And, but completely different, completely different worlds, right?

9:19César CharloneOutsiders. I'll, I'll check it up. Outsider of Coppola?

9:23Jawad MirYeah, The Outsiders. It's based on a book by, S.E. Hinton. It's a great, a great movie. But that's what it first reminded me of. But at the same time, the authenticity in this film is so good, and that comes, in my view, which is why I wanted to talk to you, from cinematography, right? Obviously, there's great direction, great editing, everything, performances. But there's a sequence, I'm really terrible with character names, so please forgive me. There's a sequence when these young kids are in the corner, of a fence and they're trying to, they're talking about how they wanna be part of gangs and the real guys come in, and there's a sequence where two boys are being picked to, you know, to be shot at by one of the younger boys. H… I mean, that's such an amazing sequence, and it was completely unpredictable the way it unfolded. Tell me about that. What was the... I mean, how did y… what was the whole process with that? Was there any storyboards, or was it just complete doc style, go along with it as it's happening?

10:27César CharloneBe… because the kids were non-actors and, you know, were so young, from the very beginning,.. What happened was, we were very lucky on this film that, Fernando Meirelles was very committed to preparing. He had moved from São Paulo to Rio de Janeiro. That's a big move because it's 400 kilometers, two different cities. He had settled down in Rio de Janeiro, living there to prepare the film. And, he was called by a big, television channel, TV Globo, Brazilian big TV, to do an episode for a series. And Fernando said, "No, sorry, I'm very busy preparing my feature film here, so I won't be able." So they insisted so much and they said, "Well, do something related to your film if you want."

11:27César CharloneAnd Fernando said, "Ah, okay." So he got an, a chapter of the film, of the book City of God, adapted it, and did a short feature. And we shot this short, episode for a Brazilian series in the style of City of God six months prior to that.

11:51César CharloneAnd that was the best thing that happened because we were able to rehearse, prepare. Like for example, I was, I was investigating into a new technology that was at the moment because, it was the first film that was shot on film, edited and post-produced digitally, and then taken back to film to be projected as film. That was... And that was very important to me because I was doing that in commercials, and I found the power of color correcting digitally, and it was so important to me that I couldn't see myself doing a film without using that. So I investigated a lot, and I got an engineer that helped me a lot, and we finally managed to do this. And City of God was probably the first film that ha… did that. Film, digital, film. So, you know, this short feature that we did for TV Globo was so important that we were able to rehearse a lot and one of the things that we rehearsed was working with these kids.

13:03César CharloneAnd by working with them, we realized that it was gonna be impossible to make the kids behave as actors and follow marks and follow. So I told Fernando, "We have to shoot the film as a documentary. Just let them go. Let them do their stuff."

13:21César Charlone"I'll hi… I'll hide as much as I can with the camera, and we'll just grab..." And all the thing was prepared in that direction. Like, for example, I always repeat this, that when I engaged in the film, the first thing that I did was ask the producer, said, "I need an assistant cameraman that is very prepared for documentaries because I won't let him use the tape to measure at what distance the actors are. He'll have to improvise…

13:53César Charlone... Following focus, because I'll, I'll be, you know, following the actors like that." And that is something that we learned doing this short film that we did six months prior to filming, that, a… and this short film was released. It's called Golden Gate. I can send you a copy of it afterwards. And you'll see…

14:17Jawad MirAbsolutely

14:19César Charlone... And you'll see that in this film, it's got all the styles possible of film because I was rehearsing, you know, filming with different cameras. I used, I used, like, 10 types of negative, of different negatives, three types of camera. I, you know, it's, i… it's got no coherence because it's every shot is different from the other because I'm, I'm using it to pre… to rehearse, to prepare, to test. So that was very lucky. And because of that, and because we were able to take this short feature all the way until the final print. And, you know, I remember always with great pleasure a Saturday morning that production had, reserved a screening room. I took Fernando and screened the test of Go… of this short feature, Golden Gate, to Fernando.

15:24César CharloneAnd at the end, Fernando turns around and says, "Let's go." Because he… Th… there was a big, like, there was one of the producers that had told Fernando not to hear, not to listen to me because I was crazy, and that what I was proposing was suicide to mix 16 millimeters with 35. That is, you know, that wouldn't work, and so and so. So, you know, I was very insecure, and I was making Fernando be very insecure by this crazy idea. But finally, we managed, you know, to see the short feature and see that it worked and see it in a huge screen and, you know, it works. Okay, that's how we're going. So then we shot City of God this way, you know, mixing 16 and 35 different... And documentary. And that scene that you refer is exactly that. You know, the kids came… And this is something that I always like to mention is, in Bicycle Thieves of, Antonioni or Visconti, I don't… Visconti, I think it is.

16:36César CharloneSorry. It's one of those.

16:39Jawad MirI don't know.

16:39César CharloneBig mistake. In that film, there is a very famous scene where the old guy is sitting on, in the road by the kid, and the kid is crying because the guy said, "You stole the bike." And the crying of the kid is so real, so real because… And that is something that I learned and realized in this scene of City of God, is kids, before they're seven years old, before they enter the rational, they mix reality with fantasy. And they can be training as actors for months, but once they go into the character, they forget about reality. And that's what happened to that kid in Bicycle Thieves and that kid in City of God. It happened that exactly. He had been training that scene with Fatima Toledo for months, six months.

17:40César CharloneBut when he came into set and everything was prepared, he was so… And he suffered really, and we were very sad because that suffering is real. And he… A… and the scene finished, and everybody hugged him. And he realized that, you know, it was fantasy, but he had suffered. So what we did that was just register, you know, as a documentary. I was there. And I always tried to find a way of, for example, in a scene like that, I would sit in the middle And turn around to whoever, you know, wherever the action interesting was. So yes, I... In that case, I was with one of the cameras. We had two camera… with one of their cameras. I was in the middle, as discreet as I could be. The cameras were small and I would, you know, would just follow and that's what gave that sensation of reality to it because we were hidden.

18:44César CharloneLike today…

18:46Jawad MirRight

18:46César Charlone... Like what's happening today with all this social media, that people with their cell phones just capture incredible things, you know, of car accidents or whatever because the, you know, documentary styles are there. That's what, that's what was happening.

19:05Jawad MirYeah. No, and it shows in that, right? And it's like, it's one of those rare films where the marriage of direction, performances, cinematography, and editing, and everything else just sinks in perfectly. Like, you're so involved in the characters and in the film. And cinema, you know, c… film… having cinematic shots is amazing. Like, you know, you need those kind of things. But in this case, if this film was shot cinematically, like, you know, like Godfather or Apocalypse Now, I… it wouldn't have worked. Because the environment and the world is so different, and the kids are…

19:44César CharloneYeah

19:44Jawad Mir... Always on the run, right? Like, that's just the way the kids' nature is, they're always on the run.

19:48César CharloneExactly.

19:48Jawad MirAnd it just captures it beau… beautifully. I... And the color tone and the lenses, you know, one scene that stands out the most to me was in the beginning, when the cops come, when they, when they rob the milkman, I think it was the milkman they rob, right? The bunch of kids. And then the kids run, and they're running in between the homes, and the j… the use of the lenses that you use. I mean, I'm, I m… I'm assuming you use a lot of long lenses in some of the scenes. And just to give that like a, you know, wide focal length was beautiful. And what lenses did you use? I mean, I'm just curious

20:25Jawad Mir... More overall

20:28César Charlone... Fernando was very concerned that, the audience would follow the three different periods. So that first period that you refer to, was the light, the light, the ingenuous, the naive part. Fernando wanted it to look like, spaghetti Western. Very naive…

20:59César Charlone... Very... So, you know, we had that sequence of them running that was like a cart being, followed by cowboys and stuff like that. So, and we separated in color, you know, that, sepia brownish, color, because we wanted to separate…

21:22Jawad MirRight

21:22César Charlone... The different periods.

21:25Jawad MirI know.

21:25César CharloneSo for that, so for that part, you know, we thought of using very wide lenses to, you know, to show the landscape of the cowboys and stuff like that. Very much like, you know, the, those spaghetti Westerns. So yes, we used wide, very wide, shots for the beginning. Some tight shots, but, we got much tighter later, you know, when we go into the characters, when we go into the '80s. Because that was the '60s that was very, you know, naive.

22:04Jawad MirRight. Right. How big was the crew, for the film?

22:10César CharloneWas a regular film crew.

22:15Jawad MirOkay

22:15César Charlone... Two people helping me with the camera. First assistant, second assistant. There was loader. Then, a key grip and, like, two grips. A key gaffer and two or three gaffers. Sometimes because…

22:35Jawad MirOkay

22:35César Charlone... We had more complicated lighting, we would, you know, hire some more for those days. But basically it was the typical South American crew.

22:48Jawad MirRight. And what was the most challenging scene to work on from a logistics standpoint? Or even, yeah, from a logistics standpoint. I know it's been a while, so if you, if it's…

23:05César CharloneYeah

23:05Jawad Mir... If it's something you're not remembering, don't worry about it. Or let me rephrase it. What was the most fun scene to film? I mean, the whole film is, you know, I would imagine you guys had a great time filming, shooting, but just…

23:19Jawad Mir... Personally for you, or something that made you emotional, something that made you laugh the most, or j… just any kind of emotion.

23:27César CharloneYou know what? I always have trouble with this question when they, when they give, they do me this question. I always have trouble because I, to me, it's just one film, one block. And I…

23:40Jawad MirGood

23:40César Charlone... I'm, I'm, I have trouble separating one scene that, you know... To me it's like the whole thing. I… You know, that scene that we were talking about was great to do, but otherwise following the chicken was a lot of fun and, you know…

23:56Jawad MirYeah

23:56César Charlone... And following the kids was a lot of fun, and…

24:01Jawad MirGotcha

24:01César Charlone... Yeah.

24:01Jawad MirNo, it makes sense. I get it. Don't worry about it. So let me, let me ask you this. When, do you remember the time when you guys figure, when you guys realized that the film has been, you know, is becoming this worldwide phenomenon leading up to the Oscars? Like… What was that process like? I mean, like you said in the beginning, like, you guys had never imagined for that to happen. It launched your careers. Do you recall those moments of leading up to all that, you know, success and…

24:28César CharloneYeah

24:28Jawad Mir... Fame, if you wanna call it…

24:29César CharloneIt's a day-to-day thing that, you know, the film goes to one festival and then you hear and you read that it was so well received. The next thing is another festival, and then a critic, and it starts building up. So, you know, you get... There isn't, there isn't a one moment. It's, it's like a gradual thing that happens and happens and happens. I remember, for example, I was in holidays with my family in a hotel in south of Brazil. My family's all spread through South America, so we try to gather. So I had my sisters coming from Chile, my mother and my brother coming from Uruguay, me from São Paulo. So we had gathered in this beautiful beach in the south of Brazil, Santa Catarina, Florianópolis.

25:18César CharloneAnd I received the news that the film had been, selected, that I had been… we had four nominations to the Oscar. So it was a great fun, all the family just jumping into the swimming pool and hoorah, and, you know. And my brother recording that scene. "Oh," you know. So it's, it's things that grow up and grow up and you start, you know, finding out and receiving and enjoying.

25:50Jawad MirRight. So it, so it was nominated for four Academy Awards. Best Picture, Best Director, Best Editing, and

25:59César CharloneWell, it was, it was Best Script Writing, Best…

26:04Jawad MirRight, script writing

26:05César Charlone... Best Directing, Best Editing, and Best Cinematography. We didn't make it to the Best Film.

26:11Jawad MirRight. Oh, okay. Okay, then my… I may have misread. So I… that's great. I'm glad that you got nominated, because when I read that somewhere, I was like, "Okay, how can this film not be nominated for, you know, Best Cinematography?" Because it was, it was really well done. So I'm glad to hear that. That's amazing. It's, it's an amazing film. And I highly recommend everybody watching it because… not just because, you know, it's technically amazing, it's just the story and the characters are very…

26:39César CharloneYeah

26:39Jawad Mir... Very…

26:40César CharloneYeah. Yeah

26:40Jawad Mir... Attachable. Like, you can relate to them. E… I mean, not everybody is a gang member in the world, but you can just relate to their stories, their individual stories, right? It… ... Beautiful film. Thank you so much for that. I really…

26:51César CharloneNo, thank you. Thank you

26:52Jawad Mir... Enjoyed it. And but the contrast to that is Constant Gardener. Right? To me, Constant Gardener, even though that was, like, a very docu-style as well, not as much as City of God. One scene that I absolutely loved the way it was shot and lit, you know, when the, characters, when... What's her name? Rachel Weisz. Rachel Weisz, yeah. She questions…

27:20César CharloneYeah

27:20Jawad Mir... Ray Fiennes when he's speaking, and they're in this room where there's a lot of windows and you can see outside. You know, normally you have a scene like that, it would have the windows outside the windows. It would be a little bit overblown or... But it was the balance between indoors and outdoors was so spot on that you felt, I felt that they were part of the outside world. I mean, I just wanted to make that comment. It was just so beautifully lit and beautifully done and beautifully shot with your longer p… you know, lenses. And that whole scene where they first meet, it just, it just stands out really amazingly.

27:59César CharloneOh, thank you. It… I worked hard on that scene, testing and preparing and lighting. It's good that it, you saw it because it really, it's one of the scenes that was difficult because I had all those, you know... And the normal thing would be just let it blow out. But I…

28:17Jawad MirYeah

28:17César Charlone... I didn't imagine, you know, being in London and, you know, to con… contextualize and, you know, put the characters in their place where they are, you know. It's important. So yeah, it was a... We…

28:36Jawad MirRight

28:36César Charlone... Had a, we had a little bit of work to balance that and to get it.

28:42Jawad MirFor sure. What was, you know, it's… Constant Gardener is, I think it's a very relevant film even in today's time, and it probably will for a while, because of its subject matter a… and whatnot. How much were you aware of stories like these? You know, this is like 22 years ago, or no, almost 20 years ago. Like, what did you learn out of it from working on a film like this and going to, you know, Africa…

29:12César CharloneYeah

29:13Jawad Mir... And then kinda going back and forth?

29:15César CharloneNo, I learnt a lot. I didn't, I didn't have the slight… I mean, you know, you suspect that the pharma companies do this type of stuff. But you don't, you don't realize so much until somebody like, John le Carré researches and, you know, and puts it in s… in a book. And from there, you know, becomes a script. I didn't… I wasn't conscious and it was great that, you know, doing the film and finding out and learning about this was very important. And making other people... I always, I always joke that, this film gave me one of the, most, the nicest prizes, awards that I've received. And this award was, a friend of mine went to a screening.

30:18César CharloneYou know those screenings that they do before launching the film that they do to, influencers?

30:23Jawad MirRight

30:24César Charlone... When the finish, when the film finishes, they're walking and, you know, everybody g… gathers together and you can listen comments. And in this, screening, Hillary Clinton was invited, and she was candidate to the pres… to be President of the United States in that…

30:45César Charlone... At that moment. And my friend tells me that he listened, that she says to one of the guys that is walking with her, probably, somebody that was working with her in the campaign. He says, "Huh, this thing about the pharma companies. We have to research into that and put it into the campaign." So, you know, that is pleasing in the sense that, okay, the film was useful. We made somebody aware of that, somebody powerful aware of that, and go into and research about how serious those things are and, you know. That… that's a good…

31:26Jawad MirRight

31:26César Charlone... Reason for making a film like that. That's why I consider it…

31:30Jawad MirThat's amazing

31:30César Charlone... That's why I consider it a, an award.

31:35Jawad MirNo, that… that's amazing. And one of the things that, you know, the way cinema changes the world, right? And after the Vietnam War, a lot of films came out about, you know, the aftermath of the veterans. Like, Oliver Stone made several films on that. Then after, the 9/11 and, attacks and the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, a lot of films came out on that subject. And I think around that year when Constant Gardener came out and a bunch of the other, there's a lot of politically driven stories of films that were being made. But Constant Gardener was something on its own because it wasn't really dealing with the Iraq war or the aftermath and all that. One of the things that I really... You know, normally you watch a film, so if you watch a film that's shot in two different worlds, like, you know, in, like in this case, like UK, which is everything is like, you know, prestige and clean and civilized, for the lack of better word.

32:43Jawad MirAnd then you go to these, you know, remote parts of these, villages in Africa, and they're completely different worlds. But the way you guys, merged them both together, I couldn't differentiate between them. And I think part of that, for me at least, was that you have this beautiful looking world that is all fake and corrupted, and then you have this really devastating looking world that is just genuine and honest. And the striking contrast was there, but it wasn't there. I don't know if that makes any sense.

33:17Jawad MirBut I thought that was really well done.

33:19César CharloneWell, I hadn't thought of that. Interesting.

33:23Jawad MirJust a observation. I mean, everybody has their own interpretations, right?

33:28César CharloneYeah.

33:28Jawad MirDoesn't make it the…

33:29César CharloneYeah

33:29Jawad Mir... Right? But what was... Well, I mean, you had shot City of God in, you know, in a completely, you know, a, in a world which was not something that the West is used to seeing on cinema, and even being, filming in there can be challenging. And the similar thing with City of, with Constant Gardener. What w… was there, any logistic challenge from the authorities or from logistics standpoints, whether it was the weather or anything like that you guys had to deal with?

34:04César CharloneNo. We had an excellent, British, English film company that had very good relationship with companies in Africa. Basically what happened was, we scouted the film, first, supported by a South African, film company, and the South African film company, took us to visit locations in South Africa because for them it was much more, secure to film in South Africa where they had the structure. And they imagined that we would come with a big structure and, you know. But Fernando and me in this pre-scout, we wanted to see the f… the book, what John le Carré had written, and that happened in Kenya.

35:10César CharloneSo we asked the production to take us to Kenya. And we said, "We can film here." "Ah, no, but there's no film structure." "Well, we bring it in. You know, it's small camera and stuff." So the f… the film company was very nice, very sweet, Blue Skies, and they adapted and they made it possible that we filmed in Kenya. And it's very nice that now after 20-so years, I went back and I filmed again in Kenya with the f… same company, and here I am very happy to, you know... My next film is, a sequel of The Constant Gardener.

36:00Jawad MirReally?

36:00César CharloneNo, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It… no, it's, it's a film, it's a film, a beautiful film I did with, K'naan Warsame, the composer, singer, musician. And he is, Somali, so he wrote a story that happens in Somalia. And in this case because it was so complicated to film in Somalia, we filmed mostly in Kenya and then… You know, w… I've, I've filmed with the same film company, and it was beautiful to film, you know, with the s… the same people which I had done The Constant Gardener 20 years after.

36:43Jawad MirRight. So The Constant Gardener has a star, a star cast, right? Ralph Fiennes and Rachel Weisz, like, even at that time were pretty big stars. City of God, completely different. Maybe in the world, in the Brazilian world, yes, but not to the Western world.

36:59César CharloneOh, no. No.

37:02Jawad MirRight? So what did you see in Fernando? Because sometimes you can get, you know, going from that world of nobodies to somebody, it can get intimidating sometimes…

37:13César CharloneYes

37:13Jawad Mir... Depending on who you're working with. What did you, how did you guys transition, yourself as well as what you saw Fernando working with people like Ralph Fiennes and Rachel Weisz? W… was there any difference? Was it a piece of cake? Was it just, you know…

37:29César CharloneNo

37:29Jawad Mir... Did it make you guys feel comfortable?

37:31César CharloneFer… Fernando was... I… it was, it was m… it was more strange for Fernando and me to go to the favelas and film City of God than to film Ralph Fiennes and Rachel Weisz, because we were more accustomed to, you know, the normal Brazilian…

37:50Jawad MirActors

37:51César Charlone... Actors or South American actors. So yes, Ralph Fiennes and Rachel Weisz were couple of steps higher, but it was actors that, you know... Fernando is married to, an actress, dancing, she dances, an actress.

38:10César CharloneSo we are in this world. So no, to us it was, to us it was normal. It was more rare to film in the favelas than to film in Africa with Ralph and Rachel.

38:29Jawad MirIn terms of, cinematography, w… I love the contrast in Constant Gardener. Like, the color correction is really well done. You know, it's, it has a natural look, of course, but at the same time, there is a subtle contrast that pops out, and it just really draws you in. What was... I mean, like you said, there was, you know, different time periods in City of God. Kind of a little bit, but not too much in Constant Gardener. Not as much as difference as it was in City of God. W… what was, what were the discussion that you guys, you had with Fernando in terms, in terms of look of the film, before the production began, and even, you know, during scouting and all that?

39:14César CharloneYeah. L… let me tell you a kind of funny thing that when we were hired to do The Constant Gardener, well, Fernando starts first and then he tells... And the producer, a British producer, Tracey Seaward, she sends me, I'm in Brazil, and she sends me a lot of, curriculum, CVs of assistant cameramen and gaffers for me to start choosing the crew. And I tell her, "No. Hold on just a second. The first guy that I choose into my crew is the color corrector, the colorist."

39:57César Charlone"Because it's with him that I'm going to establish the look, and with him that I'm gonna start thinking of what type of crew, what type of equipment, and so and so." And that's exactly what happened. She understood that, and she sent me. And I made contact with Asa Sole, a colorist from, London, I don't know what lab he's on now, but very good, very n… very great colorist. And with him, I chose what type of negative I would lo… use, how I would expose a negative, because I would do tests, and I would go to the color suite with him and start playing, and, "Oh, I like this, like that." And we would find the look and establish how I would expose according to... Because it's very important that what you film interacts with the color correction. So…

40:53César Charlone... It's good that you mention, because color correcting was very important in this film. And what I normally do is when I'm scouting, I start taking pictures. Now I film, but at that period I would take pictures with my camera and a negative similar to the negative that I were using. And I go to the color correction, I correct them, and I share them with Fernando and say, "Oh, for this sequence I'm thinking of going more or less in this direction. What do you think?" "Oh, I think it's great," or, "Oh, I think it's a little bit too much," or you know. I start, making the decisions of the color grading with Fernando. Normally Fernando's very generous and he accepts most of what I propose, because we have talked about it and, you know. I wanted…

41:41Jawad MirRight

41:43César Charlone... The African, I wanted the African color to pop out and to be something very contrasty with this very boring Constant Gardener's world of green and plants, you know. I wanted the Africa to be explode in color. So that was my proposal, and Fernando liked it, and you know, we worked that. But that was something that I worked together with Asa in the post-production and all the time doing those, approaches.

42:14Jawad MirRight. Would you have, this is going back, to City of God. And we talked about this when we talked about Sugar, that you had some of, you know, you got lot, you got iPhones from Apple, because in Apple Series 2 you put them in the car where Colin Farrell was. If you had iPhones available back then… You know, ju… would you have done certain sequences on the iPhone with FiLMiC Pro app?

42:44César CharloneOh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, the iPhone opened up such a possibility, you know, of doing things. It's amazing. So yes. Well, you know, the fact that I was filming, at that time with 35 and 16 millimeter, that already, because the 16 millimeter cameras were so light that I could go, you know…

43:15César Charlone... In the car, handheld, with Ralph Fiennes driving, and that was a very nice... The last sequence that we did in that film is, a driving scene of Ralph Fiennes driving. And it was Fernando in the back with a tape recorder, me in the front seat in, by Ralph Fiennes with a 16, and we just drove around and, you know, just, that small filming crew. When we finished, Ralph Fiennes says, "Gentlemen, this was one of the most nicest moments I've had," you know? A very grateful, very nice experience. And yes, because, you know, if that was, instead of 16, an iPhone, I would have done it, yes.

44:07Jawad MirIt's interesting you mention that.

44:08César CharloneYeah, I think we, I think we have, I think we have to be open and, yeah, and open to all these new things that technology is giving us, and incorporate them and use them because they're here to, you know, they're here to be used. If they help the story…

44:28Jawad MirRight

44:28César Charlone... If they help telling the story, why not?

44:32Jawad Mir100%. And I mean, it's interesting you mentioned about Ralph Fiennes thanking you and Fernando that, you know, it was one of the most amazing experiences as opposed to like, you know, big crew, big set, which is necessary when it's needed. But I also do know…

44:47César CharloneYes

44:47Jawad Mir... From my own experience, which, know from my own experience, you know, and you've done documentaries, too. When you have a small crew, it intimidate... It makes the sub… the subject or the person that you're interviewing or following less intimidate… intimidating to you. You know…

45:08César CharloneYeah

45:08Jawad Mir... They just feel more comfortable, and that's what it's all about. The filmmaking is all about making each other feel comfortable. And actors can pull off big sets because they're used to it, right? But even sometimes they have their days.

45:20César CharloneAbsolutely.

45:21Jawad MirAnd it is something that's really underrated…

45:23César CharloneYou know, and people are so accustomed…

45:24Jawad MirI f… find, that…

45:25César CharlonePeople are so accustomed to this…

45:27Jawad MirYeah

45:27César Charlone... You know? People, you know, people, you know…

45:33Jawad MirYeah

45:33César Charlone... If I was like this here, you would be talking to me the same comfortably, instead of if I was with a huge camera and a boom, you know, you would be intimidated. But this today doesn't intimidate. So yeah, 100%.

45:49Jawad MirYeah, 100%. I, it's, it's, it's, I, you remember when the 5D revolution happened, in the, in 2009, 2010? Like, I used to at the time, you know, for about six years, I did a lot of, South Asian weddings all over the world. And so that taught me a lot about like, you know, run and go, and capturing moments as they're happening. So there's no time to reshoot, you just have to go.

46:15César CharloneYeah.

46:16Jawad MirAnd I remember one of the reasons, and at that time I didn't realize this, I realized this five years ago when I start, working on my la… my last film that I did, was people... If I did not, if I had not used 5Ds for those weddings, which was at the time not many companies were, not many people were doing it, they were just kinda kicking in, I wouldn't have been able to capture the moments that I did had it been like, you know, with a gigantic camera. Because it made like really different... People just feel relaxed and they feel comfortable.

46:53César CharloneYeah. Well, the…

46:54Jawad MirYeah

46:54César Charlone... The, exactly the same, the f… the sequence of City of God at the beginning that you like so much, that is because I was able to shoot it with 16 millimeter cameras that I would put at the end of a pole and run with them in, on the floor. If I had to do that with a 35 or, you know, would have to have built a very... And this was just me with goggles, seeing the image coming into those goggles, and following a chicken, and with a camera just attached to a pole that was at the height of the floor.

47:32Jawad MirThat's amazing. The…

47:33César CharloneYeah

47:33Jawad Mir... Is there a lot, any behind the scene footage of all that?

47:37César CharloneOh, yes, there is. Yeah.

47:39Jawad MirOh, there is. Okay, awesome. I'd, I would, I'd love to check that out. Maybe it's on the DVD. I'll have to check that out.

47:42César CharloneI'll, I'll send them to you. Yeah.

47:44Jawad MirYeah, that'd be great. No, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for making City of God…

47:51César CharloneYes

47:51Jawad Mir... And Constant Gardener. I will say one thing about Constant Gardener. I feel, and I could be dead wrong about this, but when I think about that year when Constant Gardener came out, and when I saw it in theaters, it probably turned me into a filmmaker that I never thought I would be, where you deal with social, and political, and human rights subjects. So it had a big influence on me, not knowingly. Because if there's…

48:23César CharloneOh

48:23Jawad Mir... One thing that I, one film that I can think about back then that was political, social, and everything, I don't remember any one of them except Constant Gardener. So thank you for that.

48:33César CharloneOh.

48:33Jawad MirIt was, it was a very…

48:34César CharloneOh, that is very, that is very nice to listen. It's, it helps me a lot. Thank you very much.

48:42Jawad MirNo, please, thank you, and thank Fern… Fernando for me too, who I would love to talk to one day as well. I mean, he's just an incredible filmmaker. But thank you so much. This has… ... Been amazing

48:52César Charlone... I'll, I'll send you his contact. He's very, he's very nice. Yeah, I'll send you his contact. Just write to him. I'll tell him that you, yeah.

49:01Jawad MirGreat. That'd be awesome.

49:01César CharloneHe'll enjoy it.

49:04Jawad MirThat'd be awesome. I would love talking to you more in the near future, about your upcoming project. Whenever you're ready, maybe something in the past. Whenever you have time in the next few months, we'll talk again. I always love talking to you. It's a, it's a pleasure.

49:16César CharloneMe too. Me too. It's a pleasure also.