'Cinderella Man', Cinematographer, Salvatore Totino

0:00Jawad MirThe scene in the boxing office where he goes and asks for money

0:05Salvatore TotinoYeah

0:05Jawad Mir... I actually cried while we were filming that scene. You really felt, you know, Jim Braddock, you know, just, you know, at such, you know, a prideful man at such a, depressing moment in his life and a desperate moment in his life, and the way Russell was act… acted in that scene made you feel like you weren't on a location and that you weren't having lights and movie cameras, and you know, I just felt like I was in that o… the commission, you know, the boxing commission's office there and felt, you know, wow, th… there's a man who's so desperate to feed his kids. How are you?

1:03Salvatore TotinoI'm doing great. And you?

1:05Jawad MirYeah. Good. Good. I actually, taught a master class for the ASC yesterday.

1:10Salvatore TotinoAwesome. Oh, nice.

1:11Jawad MirI was exhausted at the end of the night. It was actually…

1:15Salvatore TotinoHow long was it?

1:15Jawad Mir... Harder than being on the shoot days. It was, like, you know, from 9:00 to 5:00.

1:22Salvatore TotinoYeah, that i… that is long. Teaching is, an art itself that…

1:26Jawad MirYeah, I have n… I n… have a renewed respect now for all my teachers throughout the years.

1:33Salvatore TotinoYeah. No, that's good. That's awesome. So…

1:35Jawad MirYeah

1:35Salvatore Totino... You know, just to passing on all the knowledge and towards the next generation, that's amazing.

1:40Jawad MirYeah. It's ni… it's nice to s… to inspire, the next generation. I'm also on the industry council at a inner city high school in downtown Los Angeles called Roy Boyle. George Clooney and Grant Heslov set, s… helped set up a film department in a, in a high school.

1:58Jawad MirAn inner city high school to try to introduce kids into the film industry because, you know, it's, it's so hard to get exposure to it. And so it's nice. It's, it's me and a lot of other, you know, on the ground professionals getting involved in the school and trying to inspire these kids and make introductions to them and for them, and it's, it's fun. It's fun sort of seeing the, you know, kids going, "Oh, wow, I actually, you know, I have this dream about that, but I can actually obtain it." And that's pretty amazing that you can do that. And, you know, what's also kind of interesting with them is that I, you know, I relate to them and they relate to me because I came from an immigrant background. My parents immigrated to the United States. My first language was an Italian dialect. I grew up in an immigrant community, and here I am. You know, I had learning disabilities in school, always had a little difficulty and all that, and here I am, there in front of them talking about, you know, my journey and how I followed a dream and it's possible.

3:08Jawad MirSo it's kind of nice to see the kids light up like that and realize…

3:13Salvatore TotinoThat's amazing

3:14Jawad Mir... "Oh, wow, I c… I could do this with my life too."

3:17Salvatore TotinoYeah, it certainly helps. And you know, it's amazing to see,.. Obviously, I don't know the ins and outs of your childhood, but just hearing from your, you know, what you just mentioned, to come to where you are, I mean, I... For me, all the work that you have done is as incredible as it is, but I think one thing that really resonated with me, which was really recent, and I emailed you about it, the video that, for Sony Burano that you shot with…

3:43Jawad MirOh, yes

3:44Salvatore Totino... Ben Affleck in the car. I don't know. What was it about it that it just kind of hit me so much? I have no idea why.

3:51Jawad MirOh, it was…

3:51Salvatore TotinoBut it was just so interesting because, maybe because you were in front of the camera and it was like a BTS, I don't know. But it was just the fact that you're sitting in the car driving around and like, oh, okay, you know, this is really cool. It's just... And I know your background, I know your films, but it just hit me at a different level. Which brings me to what we're gonna talk about today, Cinderella Man. I saw it when it came out, didn't understand much of it as I understood it now. And being a family man, being a father, being a husband, and all those little struggles that you go through, man, did it hit home. What an incredible piece of film. And just done so well from lighting to performances to editing. And Russell Crowe looks like a skinny, skinniest I've ever seen him. And, you know, thank you. I just literally just finished watching it.

4:48Jawad MirIt's also an interesting topic too because I really relate to it coming from an immigrant family and a struggle to sort of make a better life and how things were tight growing up, and how tight-knit our family was, and how important family is, and how hard my parents worked, to instill family values and keep the family together. So Cinderella Man resonates to me in many different ways. You know, I've heard stories with my family that, you know, my parents were in Italy during World War II in a small town in southern Italy, and they had no food, and how they got by, and how they struggled, and there was no money and, you know, they sort of worked to sort of keep themselves alive and got themselves to America and changed their lives. And Cinderella Man kind of really relates to me in that way as well because, you know, it's Jim Braddock's struggle…

5:51Jawad Mir... To keep his family and to, you know, come out of the poverty and the depression at the time. So, it's kind of a little parallel there.

6:01Salvatore TotinoYeah, no, I like that

6:02Jawad Mir... So that's, you know, that's another reason why the film resonates so much for me, and is one of my, you know, I know I've said this, I think last time, is that Cinderella Man and Frost/Nixon are my two favorite films of down, 'cause there's such a personal part of yourself that's really in them or relates to them, and, you know, Cinderella Man is very special in that way. We're about to do a remix, a new color remix of it.

6:31Salvatore TotinoOh.

6:32Jawad MirYeah, so, a lot of the studios are taking old films and older films in there…

6:37Salvatore TotinoYeah

6:37Jawad Mir... Sort of updating them. I had done that for Changing Lanes. We did a 6K transfer, so, you know, we're about to do that with Cinderella Man as well, you know, for Universal.

6:49Salvatore TotinoThat's amazing. Is that supposed to come out later this year, or you don't know yet?

6:52Jawad MirI don't know if they're gonna re-release it. They won't, they won't re-release it in the theaters, I don't think, but I think it, you know, might be a big push for an, on, streamers.

7:03Salvatore TotinoYeah.

7:03Jawad MirI'm not sure. I have to actually ask Ron that question. It is, it is 20 years. It's 20 years. I can't believe it's 20 years.

7:12Salvatore TotinoWow.

7:13Jawad MirYeah.

7:14Salvatore TotinoWow. That is, that is kind of crazy, 'cause I remember…... I remember watching it in theaters. I remember watching it in theaters.

7:22Jawad MirYou know, we shot that in Toronto, in your hometown.

7:25Salvatore TotinoYeah, and I…

7:26Jawad MirYeah

7:26Salvatore Totino... And I saw it... So I don't know how much you explored Toronto. At the time, where you, where the, Toronto Maple Leaf Gardens was, which is College… ... And, Yonge.

7:38Jawad MirYeah.

7:38Salvatore TotinoIf you go up on north on Yonge, just before Yonge and Bloor, there used to be a movie theater there called Uptown.

7:43Jawad MirOh.

7:44Salvatore TotinoIt was probably the biggest movie theater in Canada. It had, like, three screens, two in the basement, and one at the top…

7:49Jawad MirReally?

7:49Salvatore Totino... Which probably had, like, 2,000, 2,500 people. Like, it was huge, and I remember watching it there.

7:56Jawad MirOh, wow

7:57Salvatore Totino... All, obviously all of that stuff has completely been changed now in the last 20 years. But

8:00Jawad MirYeah, of course

8:01Salvatore Totino... But, was it, aside from Maple Leaf Gardens, w… what else... I felt a lot of, like, residential area and stuff. It felt to me it was Toronto area, but, you tell me. I mean, were there, was it more than that, just the Maple Leaf Gardens, or was it more, or was it just that in terms of…

8:18Jawad MirNo, it was the Maple Leaf Gardens. The basement apartment was a set. Paul Giamatti's apartment was a set, and the Leaf office was a set. So if you look, think about it, there's basically four sets in the film. It's the three that I just mentioned, and the Maple Leaf Center for Madison Square Garden, and the other boxing venues. We shot the street where he kinda comes out of, in the morning to go to the docks, and he comes out of the sort of yard, and somebody's sort of sleeping in a car, and he walks down the street. I think that was Queen Street South.

9:03Salvatore TotinoOkay

9:03Jawad Mir... You know, and we, so we sort of took over two blocks, and Wynn Thomas, amazing art production designer, designed New York, I mean, New Jersey, Bergen of 1930s at, on the streets there. When the butcher shop that he, the, they return the salami in, that's a real location. The docks are a location. We did go to Hamilton, I think…

9:32Jawad Mir... Yeah, for the shipping and unloading of the ship, you know, working on the docks. But the, you know, the main gate area of the docks was that location. The boxing, commission office was a location. Oh, the boxing commissioner's office was a set. I think that was a set, yeah.

9:55Salvatore TotinoOkay.

9:55Jawad MirSo it might have made sense. But it, we did, we really incorporated a lot. The back of, the apartment outside the courtyard area, that was... I don't know if that was off of Queen Street South. Again, I can't quite remember. It was 20 years ago.

10:14Salvatore TotinoYeah, Queen Street's, Queen Street is probably the right place, because even now, certain parts of Queen Street still have that old feel, you know, from the '80s or '70s or even '60s.

10:25Jawad MirYeah.

10:25Salvatore TotinoBut you can even make those, you know, it, you can turn, make a street from the '70s and '60s to make it look like 1930s, because there was not that much construction and stuff between that time period. So but yeah, it makes sense, and I think one of the streets that I recognized, I thought it was, like, a High Park area. I'm not sure if you went there, which is near Queen Street, like the residential area where they're standing outside the, out of a house, when things are a little bit better and financially…

10:49Jawad MirOh, yes. Yes. Yes.

10:51Salvatore TotinoYes. And so that I recognized, but…

10:53Jawad MirIt was High Park. Very, right. It was High Park. Now you remem… I, reminded me, yeah.

10:59Salvatore TotinoOne of the things I loved about, obviously, you know, as I said, about the story and everything, was the, in terms of cinematography, was the lighting. You know, there was a lot of, like, shadows and, dark tones and, like, you know, less, minimal lighting, depending on obviously the scene and everything. How did you... What was the conversation that you and Ron had in terms of making sure to get the right look for the characters in the story in this film?

11:25Jawad MirIt was, based on sort of realism. You know, h… how did it feel back then? And how could we portray that without making it, you know, too dark? And I, you know, we did a lot of research in regards to the type of lighting that people lit their homes with and, or not. The boxing matches, what, a few of the boxing matches, I used lights from the 1930s, these two case…

11:58Salvatore TotinoOh, cool

11:58Jawad Mir... Lights. Oh, yeah. We found, my gaffer, Jay Fortune, who was out in New York, we found, these lights, and we used them. It was a really, you know… It was really important to try to keep that historical value and bring it to film, and use some of the technology that was used then. The interior of that, apartment, I lit it mostly with practicals and some very little lighting, and I used these sort of battened strips.

12:32Jawad MirSo we sort of took a piece of wood and we put sockets on them, and then, mushroom light bulbs that were actually touching each other, so it kind of created, like, a soft light, and I sort of hid them in places. And when they lost electricity, and I just had them lit by the candlelight, and I just used one of those little strips to, like, accentuate it. And Ron's like, "Sounds too dark. Is it, is it too dark?" You know, 'cause you have video taps attached to film cameras. It's not like digital cameras where you can actually see what the image is, and…

13:04Jawad Mir... So the, a director really has to rely on the cinematographer to really understand the chemistry. You know, can you hold on one sec? I gotta close this door. There's somebody…

13:15Salvatore TotinoYeah. No problem. No problem.

13:19Jawad MirSorry. I realize my office door was open, and, somebody walked in…

13:28Salvatore TotinoNo problem

13:28Jawad Mir... Seeing my wife. So, you know, directors really had to rely on the cinematographer's understanding of the chemistry of film, and when you say something's dark, you better be really sure that there's an exposure there, and that it's not too dark. And, you know, that came with experience and testing at the time. So it was, it was fun. It was very fun to sort of, you know, push those boundaries and make it really feel a little bit more Depression Era…

14:05Salvatore TotinoYeah

14:05Jawad Mir... Without over-stylizing it. You know, I love the Peaky Blinders series. Have you seen it?

14:13Salvatore TotinoI've seen, five, six episodes, yes.

14:15Jawad MirYeah. So beautifully lit.

14:17Salvatore TotinoYeah.

14:18Jawad MirYou know? And it is from the Depression Era time, even before that, actually. 1920s Birmingham, England. And, you know, the lighting is a little bit more up from that, even though there wasn't that much lighting back then. You know, the faces are really lit nice, and lighting is just beau… beautiful, stunning. You know, I commend the cinematographers on Peaky. I think it's just brilliant. Cinderella Man has a much more of a grit to it, and it was intentional not to get too stylized with it, because subconsciously w… we wanted r… the audience to really feel w… that weight of the Depression, the weight of being hungry, the weight of not having money, the weight of surviving, you know? And sort of making it a little bit more down and dingy in that sense, I think subconsciously helped to take the, audience on that journey.

15:27Salvatore TotinoYeah. I think for me, that there's a scene with Paul Giamatti, who, when he comes and offers, Jim, Russell Crowe's character, the 150 bucks, and you know how he says, Jim says, Russell Crowe says that, "For 150 bucks I'll even fight your grandma." Right? And they have this little laughter, and then all of a sudden you see Russell's character just literally, his facial expression changes from laugh to tears, and he give them a hug. That, I think, speaks a lot of volume to audiences. It did to me, because, you know, sometimes we all have b… been through certain aspects in our life with things that are challenging. It's just part of life. And to be able to fe… to be able to get that conveyed through cinema, and even the coverage of that, you know, the blocking and all that, was just... Yeah, it was really cool. And I do think if Cinderella Man gets re-released in theaters, I think there's an audience for it considering what's going on in the United States and the world right now, with people really living a tough life, you know…

16:34Salvatore Totino... With money and everything.

16:36Jawad MirI agree with you. I hope Universal looks at it that way. Never know.

16:42Salvatore TotinoYeah.

16:42Jawad MirNever know. I'm gonna have a conversation with Ron about it and see if there's any plans for a re-release. It's a good push.

16:52Salvatore TotinoThat's good.

16:52Jawad MirIt's a good push. You know, you talk about Russell, and he's an incredible actor. He put so much into that character, to Jim Braddock. It is extremely difficult to train, and to keep a boxing schedule, and to act as well. He was training every day like a professional boxer. You know, we had Angelo Dundee, Muhammad Ali's trainer, as a technical advisor. Andrew, Dundee, Angelo, was also in the movie. You see him in, Jim's corner all the time, which is... I mean, like, it's sort of amazing to have that boxing history. And Renée Zellweger, you know, they, all the characters…

17:42Salvatore TotinoWow

17:42Jawad Mir... All the actors really dug extremely deep to bring out the real life story, and that makes the photography even look better to me. You know? So it's, it's a whole collaborative, a collaborative, environment in that way. It's, e… every aspect of it really, from the acting to the directing to the production design to the lighting, just really, it was so harmonious and brought the whole film together, and I think, really m… made the audience feel that journey.

18:28Salvatore TotinoIt most certainly did, and again, like, you know, not to take away from Ron's work or Russell's work or your work or the editing work or whatever, but at the crux of it, I think it those, there's certain scenes that just connect to audiences, right? Like where he makes a promise with his son, like, you know, "You better not steal, and I promise to keep on my end of the bargain." You know, when his, when he walks out on his wife because she gave the kid away because they couldn't survive in the, in the cold. Like, all those little things, they're just very small scenes, but they're so powerful scenes. And then th… then once you have that scene, then they have to be executed by the performances, which are directed by the director, and then it's shot by you and edited by someone else, and so on and so forth. And obviously, you know, the hundreds of 500, 400 crew members, whatever you guys had. So it's, it's, it says a lot. And, you know, f… films, certain films, you can tell in the span of first few minutes, five minutes, that ha... Are you gonna be hooked onto it? Yeah.

19:28Salvatore TotinoWith this I did. Like, I'm watching, I don't know if you've seen it.

19:31Jawad MirOh, thank you.

19:31Salvatore TotinoWith... There's a Netflix series called The Perfect Couple, just came out.

19:35Jawad MirYeah, I saw it.

19:37Salvatore TotinoYeah. You know, my wife is really hooked onto it, and I'm, I'm okay. I'm like, I'm not... She's like, "Why are you not hooked on it?" Like, I don't know. I don't really relate to these people's problems. Like, I'm not... You know, it's not really me. Like, I don't get it. Like, I understand it's entertainment and everything, but from a sta… Like, I won't remem… I will not remember it 20 years from now. I will remember Cinderella Man now because I, in this, you know, watching it now. So it's just about those timeless things and how they're executed. And I, and I loved Cinderella Man. I'm so glad that I saw it this morning 'cause I wanted to have it fresh in my mind while I was talking to you. But yeah, just an incredible film. Certainly up on my list now. Like, you know, it probably wasn't before, but now it is.

20:17Jawad MirOh, thank you. That makes me very happy. Makes me very happy. You know, it was, it was not only the lighting, but it's also the camera work.

20:26Salvatore TotinoYeah.

20:26Jawad MirAnd that I really wanted the audience to feel what Jim Braddock was feeling. And Russell, I mean, Ron and I had a lot of conversations about it beforehand, and even before we started prep on the movie here in Los Angeles, I was like, "Look, I'll get in the ring with the boxers." And Ron's like, "How are you gonna do that and not get hit or hurt the actors? And the actor's gonna get hurt 'cause the camera's gonna be there." And I said, "Well, let's, let's do a test." And we went to a boxing gym in the Valley. We organized a test, production organized this test, and I we had, a choreographer, a boxing choreographer, stunt choreographer, and we just set up a little scenario between the two boxers, and I got in the ring with a small video camera, and I showed Ron how I can move around. You know, I understood b… boxing, and especially because you're making a movie, it's not like you're in a boxing ring with real boxers because you're moving in different...

21:27Jawad MirW… when you're, you know, choreographing it, you're moving…

21:29Salvatore TotinoYeah

21:30Jawad Mir... In certain directions. It's like a dance.

21:32Salvatore TotinoOf course.

21:32Jawad MirYou know, you know, two steps you're on this side, four steps you're on this side. You're gonna turn around here. So you... I really learned and understood what the boxing matches were, and we decided where and how we were gonna place that camera. And I got in the ring all the time with a, you know, an ARRI 35 with Cooke lenses and, you know, film camera, and I was in with the boxers. Not once did any of the boxers hit us, or did we hit the boxer or have any accidents.

22:06Salvatore TotinoThat's amazing. And…

22:07Jawad MirIt was, it was br… it was really wonderful in that way.

22:10Salvatore TotinoAnd that's, I'm so glad you brought that up because that was something I was gonna talk about later on, but the whole choreography, i… it's like a dance sequence. And I know, like, when... You know, no matter how many times you prepare for a scene or a bunch of shots like that, because even if you prepare, like you're gonna move this way and that way, there's always those natural instincts that come over, and sometimes you go off script, right? In terms of movement. But to be able to synchronize that as a camera operator, cameraman, cinematographer, with that move, it's not, an easy thing to do, and making sure that you're trying to capture the emotion, but also making sure that you don't get hit or the camera equipment doesn't get hit or they…

22:53Salvatore Totino... Don't get hurt. So yeah, it, and that really immerses you in. I mean, Cinderella Man is kinda like, you know, how Rocky was, but in a different way.

23:02Jawad MirYeah

23:03Salvatore Totino... And you really brought that in, like the whole ring sequence. Imagine just shooting it offsi… outside of the ring, like nobody would care. Like, it'd be…

23:11Jawad MirYeah

23:11Salvatore Totino... Obviously not gonna be involved.

23:12Jawad MirWell, yes, because you feel like you're watching a boxing match on television.

23:16Salvatore TotinoYeah.

23:17Jawad MirYou know? And that's, you know, that was what was so important is to really bring you into the ring and have you feel what the boxers are feeling. And there were certain, times that Jim Braddock was having different emotional feelings within the fight, and I w… I used different camera techniques or different cameras and lenses to sort of help portray that. And by bringing the camera in the ring and using those different cameras, I... It's really, you know, there. There's a m… one moment where I even, I slightly take the lens off the camera mount and push it back in, and you, the editor just uses that last moment of it coming in and kind of makes the frame sort of jiggle a little. And, you know, you realize that Jim Braddock's head's a little rattled at that moment, 'cause he'd gotten hit. So you know, visually we help to tell what happened to the character with the little sort of...

24:17Jawad MirYou know, Ron's like, "What are you gonna... Sean, what are you doing? You're taking the lens off the camera? What? What? What? How's that gonna look?" I'm like, "I think it's gonna be good. Let's try it, Ron. Let's see how it goes," you know? And he's like, "Oh, yeah, I like that. That's great. That's great. Let's do that again." I lo… I love when Ron gets really excited. It's, You know, i… i… it's, it is, it's a great collaborative re… relationship and when he gets excited, you know, oh, okay, I j… I just did something really good. And, I, you know, I feel good about it, and it made him feel good about it and, you know, and then you see it on the big screen and you're like, "Wow, that's great. That worked out fine."

24:58Salvatore TotinoYeah, I can totally imagine that. Can you remember a scene, I mean, you mentioned earlier that you know how it's like your story, immigrant story and all that. Do you remember a scene when you were filming it, you know, obviously you are trying to fig… make sure everything is in focus, the frame is right, everything is in sync, but something that really hit you emotionally that you related to in some capacity and it, you know, almost took you out of that zone?

25:32Jawad MirThere was, there was one moment when Jim Braddock, one morning, is going to the docks. And I, we did a steady cam shot, and I'll never forget, we shot off a 65 millimeter and we're really close to him walking down the street, and the emotion in his eyes started to weigh on me. And then that kind of buttoned... It didn't button at that time, the scene, but just the emotion did with, sorry about the film.

26:07Salvatore TotinoIt's okay.

26:08Jawad MirWith, the scene in the boxing office where he goes and asks for money.

26:17Salvatore TotinoYeah.

26:17Jawad MirI actually cried while we were filming that scene. You really felt, you know, Jim Braddock, you know, just, you know, at such, you know, a prideful man at such a, depressing moment in his life and a desperate moment in his life. And the way Russell was ac… acted in that scene made you feel like you weren't on a location and that you weren't having lights and movie cameras and, you know, I just felt like I was in that o… the commissioner, you know, the boxing commission's office there and felt, you know, wow, th… there's a man who's so desperate to feed his kids. And, you know, being a father and at the time my kids were very young, and, I just, you know, you kind of relate to it, and I started crying. I cried as we were filming the scene.

27:17Jawad MirDo you know, talking about crying… ... I did not, a… after the premiere of Cinderella Man, I could not watch that film for like 10 years. And the first time I put that film on, I started to cry from the first frame all the way to the end. The first time, I mean, now I could kind of sit through and watch it because of that whole emo… emotional journey that in making that film and relating to that film and, you know, when you start to watch the film, like if we sat down together and watched the film together, I could tell you everything that happened in that scene, what that scene, what that day was like, what was going on. I just rem… you know, when I watched the movie, I remember like it was yesterday and that we were filming that scene. And so it's, it's really hard. It's really hard to watch because it, the film is so special to me that weight on it just makes it so emotional. So yeah, that was heavy. That was a very heavy scene. And when you know, it's like with Frost/Nixon and Nixon, Frank Langella making you think you're with Nixon.

28:37Jawad MirIt's, it's very special when you're physically there and you're being transported to, you know, when you're physically on set and you're being transported to some other place, even though it's an alternate reality that makes it feel like a reality with the real p… people. Doesn't happen, doesn't happen often. It's, it's kind of a very rare experience. I think people, you know, you have, the cinematographer has while you're working, you know, on a project, I've, you know, many of my colleagues, very rarely has anybody ever mentioned having these kind of experiences. So when you do, you know, it's very special.

29:22Salvatore TotinoYeah.

29:22Jawad MirAnd when you hear another cinematographer talk about it, you realize, you know, you can relate to them 'cause you're like, you know how special it is and, you know, seeing their joy and excitement as well, it's nice.

29:36Salvatore TotinoYeah. No, I completely agree. And, you know, it sort of, what you just said about being immersed into that moment, I've been to, I've been in those places many times, but there's one thing that I always will, I will probably never forget is, I was directing my second doc… feature documentary. It was a narrative documentary. And we're following this protagonist, named Ahmed, who's, the basic outline of the plot is that he fled to Afghanistan because the Taliban put him on hit list, and he leaves his pregnant wife and his kids behind without saying goodbye, and he ends up in Europe's worst refugee camp. Like, that's the basic premise.

30:20Salvatore TotinoAnd I was trying to talk to him about his, what is he feeling and all that stuff. You know, we were doing some secret filming and, but off loca… off the location we were secretly filming, sometimes I would go different places. And I was trying to get something, get him to be extremely vulnerable, not in a sense that I'm looking for some entertainment, but just let him be who he is, and it wasn't working. And then one day we went in the morning to the beach just randomly, and I said, "You know what? Let me just bring my camera. We're not really planning to do anything. We're just gonna go for a swim." And we didn't end up going on a swim, and he just turned around and he started talking to me, and I had to, you know, with my DP, we had to start the camera on. And he lost himself about feeling guilty of leaving his wife…

31:10Jawad MirOh, wow

31:11Salvatore Totino... And kids. And that moment, I did not know what to do. Do I keep this guy keep going or do I... You know, you know what I mean? Like, it was just one of those things that you c… it hits you, and… ... And that's similar feeling. But what you did in that scene, you created this atmosphere of, you know, wider shots and longer sh… you feel that there's everybody sitting around staring at this guy. Like, who is this guy asking for money? And there's pride being destroyed, and you f… he feels so lonely in that shot, and I felt it too. That, but again, if you had done close-ups, I probably don't think that would've worked, but you just created that environment…

31:52Salvatore Totino... With those shots.

31:55Jawad MirYou know, I'm not gonna take full credit for that. You know, that's Ron Howard. That's Ron really, you know, w… working his shot list out and how he wants that scene to feel and portray that feel. You know, I was just there as the first mate to help bring that ship along, with a few suggestions here and there, which is, was, you know, interesting. Very interesting.

32:25Salvatore TotinoYeah, well, it's, it's, it's, it's a collaborative effort, but at the same time…

32:29Jawad MirYes

32:29Salvatore Totino... At the same time, like, you know, there's al… and I know from experience that sometimes a DP would come up with an idea, sometimes a director would come with an idea, but you don't keep track of those things because it's a collaborative effort.

32:38Jawad MirNo, you don't. You don't.

32:39Salvatore TotinoYeah.

32:39Jawad MirYou know? It's nice. You know, when we, eh, another emotional scene is when he first goes to the relief office to get money. You know, which from what we understand from his family, that was extremely difficult for him to do, and there was a whole story that happened afterwards that I'll tell you about in a second that is not in the film, nor was it filmed.

33:06Jawad MirBut something that happened in reality. But to shoot that scene, I really drew on this painter named George Tooker, and George Tooker did, like, this Cubist type of painting of depression, depressed people. And there's, like, one, like, utilitarian painting in the governmental office where there were glass windows with the holes in them and people through it. And I said to Ron, "Let's film this like how this painter portrayed the feelings of his characters that he's p… painted." And we sort of took that into the relief office. And if you look at a George Tooker painting and look at the relief office, you go, "Okay, that makes sense. I understand that now." 'Cause we wanted to bring that weight in there, too, and then we sort of changed it up when he brought the money back, when he repaid the relief office.

34:06Jawad MirAnd in reality, in reality, Jim Braddock went and got money from the relief office. Jim Braddock had a fight, won all that money, went back to the relief office and gave back the money to the penny that they gave him. On that day, there was the m… a ma… the, there was the mayor's race…

34:36Jawad Mir... Happening during that time period, and on that day happened to be the challenger to the incumbent mayor at the relief office and sees Jim Braddock there. Does not know Jim Braddock was returning money to the relief office, and he went on this rant, and he was doing extremely well in the polls to beat the incumbent mayor. And he went on a rant about how here's this boxer who won all this money last night and is here taking money from the relief office.

35:09Salvatore TotinoOh, wow.

35:11Jawad MirAnd how... Yes. The relief office that night, 'cause newspapers, they would have a daily news, and evening news…

35:17Salvatore TotinoYeah

35:17Jawad Mir... And morning newspaper. That night they printed a rebuttal with the return receipt of Jim Braddock returning the money to the relief office, and that candidate wound up losing the mayoral race. Isn't that, isn't that crazy?

35:37Salvatore TotinoWow.

35:37Jawad MirYou know, and then, like, what's so, eh, I know, you go, wow. What's so amazing is that we do a film and, you know, we're painstakingly trying to be extremely accurate about somebody's life, and we, you know, down to the penny that he borrows and to the penny that he returns. And then later on, you know, you happen to read something about it, and you find out the whole backstory, and it's something like this, and it's like, wow, this is pretty amazing.

36:06Salvatore TotinoThat is one crazy story, and that deserves a film on its own to be honest.

36:10Jawad MirI know, right? Right? Isn't that, like, unbelievable?

36:13Salvatore TotinoWow.

36:13Jawad MirSo Jim, like, you know, the other great thing is that Jim Braddock really helped to lift the spirits of all, not just him and his family, but his whole community. Bergen, New Jersey, he just kind of changed people's lives, 'cause people felt that they too could have a chance of changing their life somehow. And it was just very inspiring at the time, and when you read about it, you hear, you know, there's a lot of details about how inspired so many people's lives.

36:52Salvatore TotinoYeah.

36:53Jawad MirYou know, you just like…

36:53Salvatore TotinoAnd that…

36:54Jawad MirWhen does a boxer inspire a whole community's life and give them hope?

37:01Salvatore TotinoWell, it's kind of what you... I'm not gonna talk about in detail because I wanna save this up for another s… episode. The film Unstoppable…

37:08Jawad Mirhuh

37:08Salvatore Totino... About Anthony Robles, that's sort of the way you kind of wrap that film out, which is what I really like, and I don't wanna give it away, is the same thing that how a community is affected by that, like how the next set of, you know, people who would want to do something similar or something different, but to be inspired.

37:27Salvatore TotinoAnd that's a great messaging, you know, because it makes a difference. It only takes one, like, you know, like the, someone like Steven Spielberg or someone like Ron Howard or someone like yourself. You know, people always... The percentage of people looking up to other people is probably different, but for one person, you could be the god of cinematographer or the god of directing, and it makes a huge impact. It makes a big difference.

37:50Jawad MirIt does. It really does, and that, and that's why I like being involved with that high school, mobile high school, to inspire young people, y… you know, give people hope and n… letting them know the ability that they could change their lives or follow a dream and, a… and make it a reality. It's, it's not, it's, it's... I think, I, you know, I... Not to get into politics, you know, but, you know, we are sort of having a rough time here in the United States, and I think it's time that, you know, people start to really inspire other people and help people to sort of better themselves and move on and be better citizens in so… so… society. And, you know, I think we do that in film on a, you know, a whole different level, and it's just nice when, you know, somebody comes up to you and says, "Hey, I saw that movie and it sort of made me feel like this or changed my life," or, you know, how you just, you know, you, we started the conversation how you really related to it.

39:03Jawad MirAnd, you know, inside, I'm smiling as you're telling me that… ... 'cause I was just like, wow, you know, I touched you.

39:13Salvatore TotinoYeah. It makes…

39:13Jawad MirYou know? You're 3,000 miles away and, you know, what our work has done has touched you, and it's great. It's a nice feeling.

39:22Salvatore TotinoWell, it's not just that I... It touched me or many others. It touched me over time. It's been 20 years… ... And it's still timeless. That's what's so great about it.

39:29Jawad MirYes.

39:29Salvatore TotinoIt's still... And it will be relatable in about 100 years, too, and that's…

39:33Jawad MirOh, great

39:33Salvatore Totino... That's…

39:34Jawad MirI hope so

39:35Salvatore Totino... Right? Right?

39:35Jawad MirI hope so.

39:36Salvatore TotinoBecause it's about people. And, you know, I…

39:38Jawad MirYeah

39:38Salvatore Totino... Find that nowadays, you know, there's a lot of movies that are coming out... Again, I understand, you know, you have to highlight politics and all that stuff. My, the stuff that I've done mainly has been about social and political stuff. But I think more movies like Unstoppable, Cinderella Man, you know, Minority Report, like, stuff like that needs to be more, made more because we are so much polarized, not in the United States only, in Canada as well.

40:05Jawad MirYeah.

40:05Salvatore TotinoIt's just that everybody has these political views. Okay, that's amazing, but honestly, if you start, if you had two people who had so extreme opposing views and they didn't talk about those views and they talked about their family, they'll find so much in common and different. Like, that's…

40:21Jawad MirI know, right?

40:21Salvatore TotinoI just feel those movies are missing and I need those movies to come out again because I think everybody's craving for it.

40:29Jawad MirI think they are, and once one film comes out, and, you know, hopefully, Un… Unstoppable will be that movie, then if it does really well, then the studios will start to, like, think about, oh…

40:43Salvatore TotinoYeah

40:44Jawad Mir... Let, l… let's bring more of that back to cinema, you know?

40:49Salvatore TotinoYeah, I can't wait for that.

40:49Jawad MirI mean, cinema, it's, it's interesting 'cause it's like a rollercoaster. It's always up and down, you know? And, you know, there's incredible ups and then it shifts and it's down. You think about design. Design's like that, too, you know? They, we had beautifully designed cars at some point, and then, you know, from the '70s into the '80s, they got really ugly for a time, you know? And then it started to change again. And, you know, I'm not relating film to cars, but I'm just sort of using it as a metaphor how, you know, fashion like that, too. Sometimes it's, like, really incredible, and then there's other times you're like, how could peop… you know, after you've gone through a phase, you're like, how the hell did people wear that?

41:33Salvatore TotinoYeah. But I think it…

41:34Jawad MirYou know? So it's, it's like that in cinema, too

41:36Salvatore Totino... It is about complicity, right? In a sense that people become complacent. So when you make a new invention or a new film or a new fashion, like, okay, you put your heart and soul into it, but after three, four, five, six years, it's like, okay, you know what? I don't feel that anymore. So then you're trying to find new way... Then you're making a buck.

41:53Jawad MirYeah.

41:53Salvatore TotinoThen when the buck starts going down, then you have to reinvent yourself, and I think that's the circle of life. That's just how it is.

41:58Jawad MirYeah, it is. It is. Yeah.

42:00Salvatore TotinoJust to sort of wrap up, wrap it up with Cinderella Man, as we talked about challenging shot from an emotional standpoint. You talked about shooting in the boxing ring, and we talked about lighting. Anything else that you can... One element of the entire production that you can remember where it was like…

42:17Jawad MirWell…

42:17Salvatore Totino... How we're gonna do this

42:18Jawad Mir... The... What was interesting... Well, how we were gonna do this, well, you know, the boxing was a big challenge in that sense.

42:27Salvatore TotinoYeah.

42:27Jawad MirBut what was, what happened was be… and when we were in prep, Russell had an injury, so we wound up having to basically sh… shut most of the production down for seven weeks for him to rehab that injury…

42:43Salvatore TotinoRight

42:43Jawad Mir... Before we started filming. This was all before we started filming. And we had the apartment set built already on our stage, and our offices happened to be in this studio we were filming in had offices above the s… the stages So Ron and I continued to prep during that seven weeks. We'd have storyboard meetings and figure out the boxing and stuff. And then when we had a little time, I used to go and sit on that set. And it was already dressed. It was, it had all... It was, you know, so depressing in its way. And I kinda thought like, "Wow, what is it gonna feel like? How can I make the audience feel like what it's like to be here?" So the more I thought about it, the more I just, I came up with a rule, that camera would never break the walls. It always had to be in the apartment.

43:44Jawad MirThe lens can never go outside that wall. So that forced me to be on certain lenses. It forced me to have limited angles at times. And we designed the set for walls to move, the ceiling to come off to do an overhead. And I realized, you know, that is gonna take us out of the reality of it. So there was only the front door to go in and out of to come onto the stage. And it got to a point where the crew's like, "Sal, we can't get equipment in and out fast enough for you," 'cause there's no place on the set to stage, you know, equipment and stu… o… on the set itself. On the stage there was, you know? So I allowed them, there's a little closet in the back, and I allowed them to take the wall off the closet so they could use that as an entry and exit point onto the set.

44:45Jawad MirAnd I kept that lens inside that set… ... For, all the scenes. And if you really like look at that set and break it down, you'll... Knowing it consciously now, what I did subconsciously to the audience was I put them in there. And they…

45:07Salvatore TotinoYou most definitely did

45:08Jawad Mir... Feel emotionally like w… what it was like for Jim Braddock a… and his wife. And so that was, you know, I was very heavily on that rule. It's like I'm not taking the wall off. I'm not gonna take the wall off. There was once or twice where I was like, "Can we get a wide shot back in?" I'm like, "that lens has to stay on the set." And I'd be like, "This is the widest I could give you." And Ron's like, "Okay, great. No problem. Get it."

45:42Salvatore TotinoYeah. That feel that I got of being in Jim's room with him happened because I could even figure out... Like, the way, the way, you know, your team I should say, you guys did that entire apartment was, the way you guys did the entire apartment was I knew where what was. I knew where the kid's bed was. I knew where the refrigerator was. I knew where…

46:10Salvatore Totino... The door was, you know? And you wanted to show, like you said, I think that was a great choice by you because to be able to not go on a wider, 'cause then you're giving them more space to live in, and that's not gonna hit the audience the same way as if like, you know, medium to tight space as you did probably on 50 or 35. But yeah, that's amazing. That's really good to know. That's really great.

46:34Jawad MirI think, I think in there the only lenses we wound up using is 25, a 27…

46:47Salvatore Totino28?

46:49Jawad MirNo, 27. There's no 28. I was using Cooke S4, so I don't…

46:53Salvatore TotinoOkay

46:53Jawad Mir... I don't know if I, it might have been, I don't know if I had the 35 at the time. 32 or 40, 50, 65, and maybe once I went on 100, but that was it. I just stayed in that sort of range there, on the just a lot wider end to the mid, to the mid-size, there.

47:15Salvatore TotinoGreat choice. So then it... I'm so glad you're talking i… in this much detail because people who are not even in the film business or just average moviegoers, like they need to understand that, you know, even selection of lens makes a huge difference in term, in terms of what you're trying to convey through your characters. And yeah, it's, it's amazing. That's... Yeah. I loved his apartment scenes because again, it goes back to the relatability thing. Like, you know, because we all have homes, we all have kitchens, we all have beds that we sleep in, and we eat and dining wise and everything. So yeah. But look, listen, we can go on and on. I love Cinderella Man. I'm, even though I saw it today, I'm making sure that I sit down with my family this weekend and re-watch it because…

48:02Jawad MirOh, thank you

48:02Salvatore Totino... Because…

48:03Jawad MirFantastic

48:04Salvatore Totino... 'cause kids need to understand too that life is not as simple as they think it is. And, I mean, it's a constant reminder for us too when we go kind of a little bit off the side trying to be ungrateful about what we have, that we're far better than millions if not billions of people.

48:19Jawad MirYes. Very true. Very true.

48:22Salvatore TotinoGreat.

48:22Jawad MirThank… fantastic.

48:25Salvatore TotinoAnything you wanna add at the end before we wrap up?

48:28Jawad MirM… other than, you know, it's just was very special movie to me, and I, feel that, like you do, I wanna see more films like this. And I hope, I hope we do. I hope we do.

48:49Salvatore TotinoAmazing.

48:49Jawad MirAnd I look forward, I look forward to seeing how well Unstoppable does. It's gonna be in the box office for two weeks in December, and then it'll be on streaming on Amazon. The studio's really excited about it, so a l… big push behind, publicity for it. I keep getting emails every day, an interview here or there for it. So I'm excited. I'm excited and hopefully it's gonna change some people's lives. It's again, you know, not often that cinema does, and when it does, it's very special. So I'm, I'm hoping it's gonna have that effect.

49:27Salvatore TotinoIt, I think it will. And at TIFF normally, ever since American Beauty was launched at TIFF, it has become like a setting ground for the Oscars. And the film itself is very good too, not just because it premiered at TIFF. And I feel that it's, it is gonna have... It's gonna make an impact not just in terms of people's lives, but also obviously the awards and everything, which obviously will make an impact on people's lives because it's gonna get more publicity. But it's, it's a great story. I didn't know about the story. I was blown away by everybody's performances, and the way you shot it, which again we can chat about in the, on the next episode. We do this,.. Yeah, totally love that movie. And watching Cinderella Man and that and Unstoppable in a span of a week by the same DP means special, and they were both great movies.

50:22Jawad MirThank you so much. Really appreciate it. Always love talking to you.

50:26Salvatore TotinoLikewise. We'll be in touch then.

50:28Jawad MirAll right. Have a good day.

50:29Salvatore TotinoYou too.

50:29Jawad MirBye.

50:30Salvatore TotinoTake care.