'Super/Man, The Christopher Reeve Story', Composer, Ilan Eshkeri

0:00Ilan EshkeriThe New York premiere, just over a week ago, and I got to meet, Christopher Reeve's children, who are all… ... Lovely people and very inspiring people. But one of, one of the questions, that I wanted to ask them when I met them, because it was really important to me, was, "Did I capture something of the real emotion, that you guys felt?"

0:38Jawad MirWelcome to Kingdom of Dreams Podcast. Thank you so much for joining. You did some incredible work on the upcoming documentary, which is limitedly released, Superman: The Christopher Reeve Story. I saw it yesterday, thanks to Warner Brothers, with an advanced screening there, and I could not tell you how much involved I was in the film. And the music that you did in the film was absolutely beautiful, thrilling, captivating, and this is maybe just me because I'm a huge fan of movie scores, when the credits started rolling, I just felt, and please don't take it in any way, it… I just felt to me for the first two or three notes, I was like, "Is this Star Wars? Is this Luke Skywalker theme? Is this Superman?" And then it just went down its own, which was really beautiful for me. I really enjoyed it, so thank you so much.

1:39Ilan EshkeriOh, well, thank you. That's, that's forever the problem when you're writing music is we… we've only got 12 notes.

1:47Jawad MirYeah.

1:47Ilan EshkeriSo often, y… you know, the beginnings and ends of things, can have similarities. But I'm glad that you, that you were engaged with the film. I agree with you. I think it's a really beautiful, documentary. It's a very powerful story, and I'm glad the music connected with you. You know, I, we had the New York premiere, just over a week ago, and I got to meet, Christopher Reeve's children, who are all…

2:26Ilan Eshkeri... Lovely people and very inspiring people. But one of, one of the questions, that I wanted to ask them when I met them, b… because it was really important to me, was, "Did I capture something of the real emotion, that you guys felt?" a… a… and that's a very hard thing to do 'cause, you know, when you write fiction, m… music for fiction, you can really push the boundaries. You can take the audience on a, on, o… o… on a, on a wild journey and the audience is up for that. But with documentary, you've got to be, you've gotta be so perfectly honest with the emotion that you're portraying through music. If you push it too far, then you're gonna undermine, w… what's on the screen. So anyway, they all seemed to think that I had captured something truly of what they felt, and that was, the biggest compliment really that I could have had.

3:33Jawad MirWell, that's so wonderful to hear. And, you know, nothing to take away from the directors, and everybody else, all the technicians. I'm a director myself. I've done feature documentaries, and I know as important as directing is because you have to get your protagonist or protagonists, you know, connected to you, otherwise in a documentary it's not gonna flow. It's not gonna work. You have to have that understanding. But aside from that, one of the most amazing thing about documentaries is, yes, they're real stories, but you also have to engage an audience so that you don't lose the audience, right? Because it's not an action-packed, you know, Bruce Willis Die Hard or Superman, Christopher Reeve type movie, and music does that. But like you said, over… the music n… it shouldn't overpower the emotions and the story. And there were, you know, that's what your music does, and yes, there were some moments where, you know, there were, suspense was being built up, and you have to do that. And it was rightfully so because there were moments in the film where you don't know what's gonna happen.

4:38Jawad MirI mean, I don't know anything about his story other than the fact that he used to be Superman and he fell off the horse, and I remember watching his Oscar speech in '96. I still remember that, and that's all I knew. But again, captivating that in such a way where you're just completely engrossed into characters, music plays a huge part in it. And I was, again, I sound like a broken record, but I absolutely enjoyed the film, partially because of the music, aside from the story itself.

5:09Ilan EshkeriWell, thank you. I think it's also unusual for a documentary to have a score that is quite on the scale that this is and somehow the story seemed to be able to take, what is, i… i… it's not really like a, like your average documentary, movie score. It's much more akin to a Hollywood, movie score than a documentary movie score. And somehow, you know, the story, could take that, and it just, worked really well and captured, the emotional narrative, really well. And I was surprised as I was writing it. I kept wondering if I was pushing it too far, but it seemed to be just right

6:07Jawad MirYeah, and it must be really a challenge, right? Because you're scoring for a character, a, an individual who played a character as big as Superman, the very first superhero movie ever made 50 years ago, almost 50 years ago. Plus then you have music composed by none other than John Williams, and the way the documentary starts, which I'll just kinda give it away, is just those, you know, the music building up, the Superman theme, and you see these visuals popping in and out. How... Was it intimidating to know that, you know, you're working on a project like this that has, it's a superhero, it's Christopher Reeve's story, it's John Williams, it's Richard Donner, like, all these big names. Was that intimidating to you in any way, that, you know, composing…

6:58Ilan EshkeriAbsolutely

6:59Jawad Mir... The music for a documentary?

7:00Ilan EshkeriIt was absolutely, it was intimidating of course. I mean, John Williams, you know, like most, the, people in my line of work John Williams is, you know, the godfather and we're, we are all, y… you know, if only our careers could be, you know, 5 or 10% of what his is and our, and our artistry and our skill. So, you know, to know that I'm writing music that was going to sit side by side, with y… one of the greatest movie theme tunes of all time, it, I used to run through the playground singing that theme in my head believing I could fly, right? So

7:46Jawad MirOf course

7:46Ilan Eshkeri... You know, yes, it was incredibly intimidating and to really illustrate that point, you know, you talk about that opening section of the film, but actually the first piece of music in the film happens before the Superman theme, and it's an introduction that's written by me…

8:03Jawad MirRight. Yeah

8:03Ilan Eshkeri... Into John Williams' theme, and then you come out of John Williams' theme and straight back into my music. So yeah, that was, that was very nerve-wracking and really challenging. And, but the fact that you weren't even completely aware of that as you were remembering it means that I did an okay job, so I'm pleased about that.

8:26Jawad MirYeah, I think you did because I honestly don't remember noticing that, and that's what happens when you do good music. It's like you're not noticing things. They're just kind of there, right? In a very, in different layers.

8:40Ilan EshkeriAnd also…

8:41Jawad MirHow much do…

8:42Ilan EshkeriSorry, I ju… I'll just add…

8:43Jawad MirSorry, go on

8:43Ilan Eshkeri... There that even though I would say that the score I've written is in a much more contemporary style than the classic Hollywood style that Williams writes in, but in order for it to move seamlessly between the two, I chose to use some, of the more traditional Hollywood sounds, big, broad brass, French horn melodies, and large strings so that, so that you could combine them without it being too much of a jolt, because some of the textures and the timbres and the sound worlds, connect.

9:29Jawad MirAnd I was just gonna say that because that's what I felt. It had, it had that element of, you know, the orchestric music and the old, Hollywood style or, you know, like John Williams, I, whenever I speak to music composers I always talk about Hans Zimmer, John Williams, and also every composer bo… borrows from somebody, every writer borrows from somebody, every director gets ideas from somebody. It's just an inspirational, not imitation. And you know, Gustav Holst, like, you know, one of the composers that John Williams probably got inspired from all, during the part of his career.

10:03Ilan EshkeriOh, for sure.

10:04Jawad MirAnd, right? I mean, and again, the film score, like it just was there, but it wasn't there. I don't even know how to explain it to you, and it was very much there at par, and I'm not trying to, you know, put down in any way anybody, but it was at par with John Williams' music. Like, that's, to me, it just, it stood out very prominently, but it didn't at all.

10:28Ilan EshkeriYeah. Well, that's a huge compliment, so th… thank you for that. I appreciate it.

10:33Jawad MirYeah. No worries. How much did you know about Christopher Reeve's story, in depth before getting into the project?

10:42Ilan EshkeriNot dissimilar to what you described. You know, I, of course I knew who he was. I grew up with the Superman movie, you know, at a time, a… as you were saying, when there weren't really any super… superhero movies. And then I remember when he had the accident, but I didn't really know that much about the story, so I was really genuinely very moved. And then y… you know, when I started ta, to, when I saw the initial cuts and started to talk to the directors about it, but then it became about, well, how do we, how do we really solidify the narrative? And that's one of the things that I love about working with Peter and Ian, the directors. I've done one project with them before, and they are, they're great collaborators and, a… and I really feel like b… you know, between us and Otto, the editor, we really helped to shape the whole movie because y… you know, for me it's always about, narrative storytelling through the medium of music.

11:53Ilan EshkeriI'm telling the emotional narrative. That's where I can help and I can shape things, and I very much come from the world of narrative storytelling. I studied, English literature alongside music, at college, at university, and, a… and I read constantly, so my, interest is in narrative storytelling. And, And I really like being part of a team where we can mold that together. And that was the really big challenge of the film because as you'll remember from having seen it's not a linear narrative. On the album, I changed all the music to be linear because it made more sense to listen to it that way. But the film…

12:42Ilan Eshkeri... It jumps around in quite a complicated way, and that was a real challenge to, for all of us, I think, to make that work.

12:50Jawad MirYeah. No, I agree, and I can't wait for the album to come out. Wh… which, do you have a date for it, by the way? Is there a date on that?

12:57Ilan EshkeriI think, I believe it's out already.

12:59Jawad MirIt's out already. Okay.

13:00Ilan EshkeriYeah. I mean, perhaps not in Canada, but certainly in the US it is.

13:07Jawad MirGoing to... You know, one of the things that is so weird and serendipity, if you'd wanna call it, in, i… in Christopher Reeve's story, that how he was looking into, before he had his accident, you know, he was looking into people with disabilities or paraplegic and all that stuff. And then all that happened, and then he has his own foundation, which his kids are running now. You know, what, just, out of, out of the music for a second, like, in terms of all that, like, how bizarre is that? Do you believe those things happen for a reason, or are they just coincidence?

13:50Ilan EshkeriWell, it's a, it's a great question. In fact, there's a, there's a piece of music w… w… the penultimate piece of music on the album is called For a Reason.

14:00Jawad MirOkay.

14:00Ilan EshkeriAnd I think this idea that perhaps things happen for a reason is one of the themes, in the film. I think that y… y… you know, I think for all of us on a, on a, to a, to a, on a, on a bigger or smaller scale, things happen to us in life. And the measure of who we are is how we deal with them and how we respond to them and how we turn difficult moments into positive things. I think that's a universal theme for being a human being. I think we've all encountered that. And so, and so if I think about things in my own life, yeah, things happen for a reason. Things happen to make you grow as a human being. And if we don't look at it that way, then it becomes very hard to make sense of, you know, what is otherwise perhaps quite a cruel world.

15:06Ilan EshkeriSo I think, I don't believe in accidents. I think everything does happen for a reason.

15:14Jawad MirWhat was some of the challenges that you were going through? Not challenges, but what kind of obstacles or kind of, like, moments that you had where you were like, "This is not working out. This scene and this track is not working out"? And how did you overcome it? If an example that you can give of one track.

15:34Ilan EshkeriThe end sequence of the film, the ve… the very sort of final montage, I had to write that a couple of times. At first, it seemed like the... It's, funnily enough, it's this piece of music, For a Reason, again. At first I thought that it would be a version of the main theme. But actually it was, that wasn't going to work because that was going to be the end title anyway. So I went through a few iterations of it, and came up with this, that last piece of music that just starts really intimate, with some electronics and me playing the violin. I played a lot of intimate violin parts, on it. And that was perhaps the most challenging, part of the film to score.

16:37Jawad MirAnd, you know, kinda going back in time, Ian, what was the catalyst in your life that determined that you want to make music for the rest of your life? Do you remember that moment?

16:51Ilan EshkeriWell, yes. I remember being a teenager with my friends and y… you know, we all, b… you know, some of us played guitars. One of us played drums. S… some of us sang. And I just wanted to be a guitarist in a rock and roll band. And then, I got given the opportunity to work for a composer. And, almost kind of by accident, I fell into the world of film scoring, you know, when really I wanted to be a guitarist in a rock and roll band.

17:29Jawad MirHave you, have you done something similar in terms of guitar or...?

17:34Ilan EshkeriYeah, absolutely. I mean, I mean, I've always worked with bands. You know, a… anyone who... You know, if you, if you look up my career, you'll see I've collaborated with all sorts of people from, y… you know, Coldplay to Muse to David Gilmour from Pink Floyd, Annie Lennox, Katie Tunstall, Tim Wheeler from Ash. I've done a l… a lot with Ash over the years. So lot, lots of different bands. And I've always written songs. And I have a space show that I do called Space Station Earth. And I play synths and I play guitar in that as well. I get to play... I've got a Gibson Flying V, which is, you know, the guitar that was inspired by the space race. And I always dreamt about playing that on stage. And then I, couple of years ago, I got my moment when we did Space Station Earth at the, at the Albert Hall, which was, just fantastic.

18:37Ilan EshkeriSo yeah, some dreams do come true.

18:42Jawad MirThink dreams do come true, period, if you put your time and effort into it. And obviously you have to be sometimes a little bit lucky too, but you become lucky after you work hard, otherwise you don't get lucky.

18:55Ilan EshkeriThat's very true

18:56Jawad Mir... You know, at which, yeah. What, where do you find yourself? When are you in your element? And I'm not trying to put you on the spot. Is it scoring or is it when you're working on Pink Floyd album or Coldplay or just being in a band or?

19:15Ilan EshkeriI, you know, I love... My career is eclectic and I love being able to move to different things. I love that, you know, one day I'm writing a movie score, the next day I'm, you know, in a theater with ballet dancers 'cause I'm writing a ballet, and, I really enjoy that diversity of experience. And for me, these things, changing up the creative environment is what helps me to be in the moment. So even when I'm working on a, on a film score or a, or a video game or a TV show, and I'm sat in my studio, I don't use the same templates. I don't work in the same way. I always rebuild everything from scratch so that there's, there's a challenge of learning the environment. You know, it's a bit like, you guitarists will know what I mean.

20:17Ilan EshkeriY… you know, you get very used to picking up a guitar and playing. Your hand immediate… immediately goes to certain chord shapes, but if you just change the tuning of your guitar a little bit, then you're kind of lost, and that's an im… immediately a more creative place 'cause you've got to discover new shapes, new ways of making, of making nice sounding things. And so I like to try to change and involve my environment as much as possible to keep my creativity fresh.

20:53Jawad MirThat's amazing answer. Thank you so much for sharing that, man. I appreciate it. You mentioned Pink Floyd. This is just something I remembered. I ca… came across this a couple of months ago, and this is completely off topic. Have you heard of the Dark Side of the Moon and it's syncing up with Wizard of Oz?

21:09Ilan EshkeriI've never tried it. I've always, I've always thought about trying that. But yes, for 25 years I've been hearing about that. Does it work? Have you done it?

21:20Jawad MirYeah. No, I haven't done it, but I saw an example on YouTube for the, you know, the opening sequences of Wizard of Oz when she's in the black and white wo… white world, and it does. It's crazy. I mean, I saw like three minutes of it, and it was like she would move from one spot to another, and the music will start moving, and then she'll stop, and the music will stop. And it's like com… I haven't done the whole thing, so I don't know, but I've read about it. But I just saw three minutes of it on YouTube, and it was crazy that... And for people who don't know, the album, I think it came out in 1973, if I'm not mistaken, and it synchronizes with Wizard of Oz from beginning to a… and apparently. I've only seen three minutes of it, but it's weird. I just, I remember it and, but you should look into it. It's kind of, it's kind of interesting.

22:06Ilan EshkeriYeah. No, yeah, I really should. Thank you for reminding me of that. I'm definitely gonna try and check that out.

22:11Jawad MirYeah. Is there any project that you're working on next that you're able to disclose?

22:16Ilan EshkeriYou know, I'm, I'm write… I'm about to record a film, next week. I'm just in the, just finishing, going through the scores at the, at the moment. But I can't talk about it yet, I'm afraid. So, but

22:33Jawad MirNo worries

22:33Ilan Eshkeri... But I, yeah, that and, it, what I can say is that it's a Wo… a World War II film and I've also just finished a second series of SAS Rogue Heroes, which is, also World War II. So I seem to be doing a lot of, World War II work at the moment, which I'm really happy for because, and in fact, both of these things have people from the French Resistance in it, and my grandmother was in the French Resistance. And so the Second World War has, i… is very close, to my own personal experience. So I'm always happy to work on projects where I've got a real emotional tie to them.

23:26Jawad MirThere was a series that came out, it's based on a book, came out, it's about the French Resistance. Came out late last year or early this year on Netflix. All the Light We Cannot See.

23:35Ilan EshkeriOh, yeah. I haven't, I've heard about it and really wanna read that.

23:40Jawad MirI haven't read the book, but I thought the series was really well done, and, it didn't really do well. I don't think it was received really well, but I thought it was, it was really well done from, you know, the story itself is kind of captivating, but just visually was beautifully done. But yeah, if you're into reading books, read that first and then watch the series.

24:00Ilan EshkeriYeah.

24:02Jawad MirAwesome. Just as we wrap up, what do you hope for people to walk away with when they watch Superman: The Christopher Reeve Story?

24:19Ilan EshkeriI think that it deals with a lot of, a lot of human topics that are... No, that's a terrible way of answering that question. Let me start again. I think it deals with a lot of, a lot of, human experiences that are shared Like deep running, emotional experiences. And so I think people walk away with slightly different things from the film, but I think that's part of what's beautiful about it. I think, the idea of family and being supported by your family, and loving your family and being close to your family is important. The idea of overcoming, you know, in the face of, you know, the most difficult challenges, trying to find ways of being able to overcome them is an important theme.

25:26Ilan EshkeriThere's just a lot of universal themes in it, and I think that's what makes it a great project. You know? It's, it's easy to maybe look at, look at it o… and on the face of it think, "Oh, well this is just like another celebrity documentary." But actually, I m… I mean, of course, it, in one sense it is, but really when you watch it's actually a very human story. It, and so I think that's why people cry when they see it, because it touches something in people that they find true for themselves. And I think that when... Certainly the times when I've been involved in a film that has been able to do that, it's a, it's a really special moment. So, you know, so far the response has been really overwhelming, and I'm so grateful for that, and I hope that continues as it gets released around the world.

26:38Jawad Mir100%. And, you know, you mentioned something about family and this is something that you see in movies all the time, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, or you hear about it in interviews from celebrities, whether they're sports stars or film stars or musicians, is that at the end of the day, it's all about family and friends and people you connect with, right? However, we always find ourselves, all of us, including me and I'm sure you too, sometimes forgetting about that element because we're always in this rush, for the lack of better word, rat race, right?

27:15Ilan EshkeriYeah.

27:15Jawad MirAnd how do you, how do you, if you c… if you do, figure that space and time out and say, "You know what? I've got to move away from this, even though it's important to take care of something that may not be, may not require attention, we have to deal with it. It's my, it's family and friends." Is that challenging for you?

27:44Ilan EshkeriYes, but you kn… you know, for me, the change was after my daughter was born, and just deciding that nothing was going to be more important than that. And so sometimes I have, I've got lots of work on or, you know, there's, there's pressure to get things done, and I just take a very hard line on, well, no, this is, this is my family time and this time is spending with my daughter, and that problem can wait. And there's never been a time when I've said that has ever, that it's ever become a problem, you know? People want things to happen quickly, and most of the time y… you, we can make things happen quickly. But sometimes, y… you know, you've got to put more other, you know, personal stuff first, and I think people in general are quite understanding.

28:45Ilan EshkeriAnd also, th… you know, there's, there is generally time to make that stuff happen. So I think it's a good lesson to learn in life, because often, as you say, in the rat race, you feel like, "Oh no, I'm going to get into trouble," or, "I'm gonna lose my job," or, "I'm going to..." But actually I think people, r… I think in the end we all respect, the boundaries. And the other thing I suppose it's done, the flip side of that, is that it's really made me focus in on what it is that I need to get done in the time that I need to get it done in, so that I can spend the time I need to spend with my daughter and my family. So I guess, you know, there's, there's, there's two sides to that coin. But I think having that balance is very important.

29:47Jawad MirBut, yeah. You know, just to kind of wrap things up, and I s… I know I said that earlier, but just truly wrapping it up, I really appreciate the work that you have done, in this film, and I urge people to see it. Not because it's Christopher Reeve's story or a Superman story or some, you know... It's just a very powerful story of a family and how there are characters in there who are looking for approval at all times from their father or some, from their son or wife or, you know, all that. And that's, that's what, to me, that's what this film is about. Like, yeah, you will market it as, you know, Superman who fell off the horse and started his own foundation, but it's just way more complicated than that. And, I'm so glad you guys made it, and so happy to see the film and happy to have you on the show and to, for you to be part of an incredible score that you have done.

30:45Ilan EshkeriWell, thank you very much for having me and for all your compliments.

30:50Jawad MirAnd I would... I think it comes out on October 11th widely, right? I think

30:53Ilan EshkeriI th… yeah, I think you're right.

30:55Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, it comes out October 11th, on, in theaters. And, I would love to chat with you whenever you're ready for your next project, because I'm a huge, World War movie, war movie buff. I love war movies period. So I'd love to chat with you about that whenever that comes out.

31:10Ilan EshkeriOkay. That's brilliant. Yeah. Well, I will definitely let you know.

31:14Jawad MirSounds good. Thank you so much, Ian.

31:15Ilan EshkeriAll right.

31:16Jawad MirHave a great one now.

31:16Ilan EshkeriThanks for having me.

31:17Jawad MirThank you. Take care.

31:18Ilan EshkeriSee ya.

31:19Jawad MirBye-bye. Bye.