'Silo, Season 2', Cinematographer, Baz Irvine

0:08Jawad MirHello, everyone. This is Jawwad, your host at Kingdom of Dreams podcast. Today's episode features guest from Silo Season 2, Episode 1, cinematographer Baz Irvine. I had a great conversation with him about Silo and how he came on board on the second season, and the amount of work and preparation he had to do, plus a whole lot of other stuff, including life and, you know, the evolution of filmmaking from film to digital, and now AI, and what's coming up next for him. And do not forget to subscribe, like, and share. This podcast is available on YouTube as well as Spotify and Apple. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Baz Irvine. But it's so incredible to have you. Thank you so much for…

0:52Baz IrvineYeah

0:52Jawad Mir... Tuning in on Kingdom of Dreams podcast…

0:54Baz IrvineYeah

0:54Jawad Mir... And to talk about Silo. You know, I saw the first season when it came out last year, and it just had amazing similarities to the life that we all sort of led four years ago around the world.

1:10Baz IrvineYeah, exactly. I know, I know. I…

1:11Jawad MirRight?

1:11Baz IrvineYeah.

1:12Jawad MirAnd then you try to find all these, like, "Is that s… what it's supposed to mean? Is that the hidden message they're trying to give?" And, I really enjoyed it, and I was waiting for the second season.

1:22Jawad MirI just saw this, the first episode, like, this early this morning.

1:26Baz IrvineOh, great.

1:27Jawad MirAnd, absolutely loved it.

1:29Baz IrvineYeah

1:30Jawad Mir... And, you know…

1:31Baz IrvineYeah

1:31Jawad Mir... Just wanted to give a shout-out that it's an amazing series, and with…

1:35Baz IrvineYeah

1:35Jawad Mir... A lot of plot. It reminds me a lot of, very much to, like, Lost, how things kinda got…

1:40Baz IrvineYeah

1:40Jawad Mir... Unraveled over time.

1:41Baz IrvineYeah.

1:41Jawad MirAnd I think that's what's gonna happen with this, too.

1:44Baz IrvineYeah. It's interesting you say about the COVID, sort of, last few years, because, when I started, season two, I think it was the end of 2022.

1:54Jawad MirYes.

1:54Baz IrvineIt's like it, I... The first day I had to go to the studio, it was snowing and I had to drive, and I had this, like, terror of, like, being a school, you know, little school boy first day at work, and everybody was in masks, and I got completely lost at the studio. I was walking down these corridors that, like, that I would soon become to know as mechanical and, you know. And, a… and you're right, I think the kinda whole Big Brother, dystopian, brutalist, concrete future was only, like, enhanced by COVID. It's probably one of the, one of the benefits of COVID, like, for our show. It gave it another…

2:32Jawad MirYeah

2:32Baz Irvine... Gave it another layer of, strangeness and, weirdness and paranoia and all the other stuff that we all suffered from.

2:44Jawad MirAnd I think it taps into that, right? But one of the most interesting things in this show was, I don't remember which episode it was, but it was just a whole generalization of how long they'd been living in a silo.

2:55Jawad MirFor about, I think it was established around 40 years or something.

2:57Baz IrvineYeah, that's right.

2:58Jawad MirAnd h… and now how the history was based… ... On whatever they need. And it makes you wonder that the grand world that we live in today, how is that?

3:09Baz IrvineYeah.

3:09Jawad MirIf in any way…

3:11Baz IrvineYeah

3:11Jawad Mir... You know, what… whatever you see, whatever you hear…

3:14Baz IrvineYeah. Yeah

3:14Jawad Mir... Whatever you're told, is it accurate or not?

3:16Baz IrvineYeah. I mean, it, very true. I mean, it is, it is, like, I think with a lot of shows, you know, and when you, when you do season two, you know, it's being written while these world events are happening, so I think there's always, like, a sense that you sort of reflect the zeitgeist a little bit.

3:35Jawad MirFor sure

3:36Baz Irvine... And I think, you know, y… you can definitely read into season two and draw parallels with a lot of what's happening out there.

3:44Jawad MirYeah.

3:44Baz IrvineYou know?

3:44Jawad MirYeah.

3:45Baz IrvineYeah.

3:45Jawad MirWell, we see what we want to see based on what we see around us, right? Like, if you…

3:49Baz IrvineExactly, yeah

3:49Jawad Mir... It's just the way the human brain works. But, you know, talking about, y… you talked about that the first day, you know, you went to shoot, but kinda g… going back a little bit, if you can run through me the time that you got the call or you found out via email or through your agent that, you know, you're gonna be working on Silo season two.

4:09Baz IrvineI mean, I think it was a, like a lot of these, shows, it can be a little bit of a protracted process to kinda, you know, it's, it's, it's very unusual to just get a phone call, have an interview, and then you're on it. I think that, it, I had a great opportunity. I'd, I'd read the scripts. I know I'd watched, or I'd watched the first ep of season one, 'cause remember, season one hadn't come out when I started. I mean, it was like…

4:34Baz Irvine... It was like I had no idea, you know? In fact, it was called Woe back then. You know, it, that was the name of the books. So…

4:47Jawad MirYeah

4:48Baz Irvine... And I think that I actually really loved that concept because it refers to something, you know, the cleaning, m… you know, in the silo. And I, and I think that when I saw this first ep of season one, I, while I was reading the script, I was just like, "Okay, right, I gotta do this. This is like a dream." It's like, I mean, it really is like a cinematographer's dream for many reasons, you know, and, you know, the references, the, you know, whatever. And I think, you know, serendipity just put me in a place where I think I actually was quite forward and suggested to Michael Dinner, who was the showrunner director, that we should just have breakfast. And, like, literally the next day we met and had breakfast, and this is like a week before Christmas, and, the, we had breakfast, and then that afternoon they tr… they confirmed me. And on Monday I was driving in London to Enfield, which is a very kinda nondescript part of sort of northeast London on the outskirts, and just went to the studio, and I had a week, which is really great actually, 'cause I had a week before Christmas where I saw the sets and met the key people, and it meant that when I had my two weeks off for Christmas and New Year in '20, '22, '23… You know, all the ideas could start to sort of percolate, and, as you know, we now have a new silo, which was, like, just incredible.

6:14Baz IrvineThe idea that, you know, of co… I wanna be true to the, all the beauty and things that have happened in season one, but I've got this whole other thing to set up, which is, like, kind of twice as exciting because the visual, you know, the visual possibilities for silo 17 were just, like, wow. You know, it's, like, such a, you know... What a great concept, you know? This place has, like, been, you know, l… left alone, but lifeless, dark, overgrown. You know, like, one of the references actually was amazing was we looked at, shots of Chernobyl, like, 35, 30 years…

6:58Baz Irvine... After the disaster, and nature has just gone, "Right, we're taking this back." And it's, like, trying to pull vines and roots are pulling the concrete back down into Earth. And so on a smaller scale, we sort of did that with the new silo that she goes into. And, you know, and yeah, I mean, without... Well, you know that there's water in the silo. You know, we find that out.

7:24Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

7:24Baz IrvineSo it's like, it's flooded. It's, you know, so it was like, it... There was a lot to think about, lot to work out. And the other beauty of these type of shows is you do get the prep to work stuff out, you know? Huge amount of planning with the effects, obviously.

7:45Jawad MirYeah

7:45Baz Irvine... Storyboarding, trying ideas, you know, maybe not always realizing those ideas, but sometimes that's what you have to do to process, you know? And then you find the way, and you go, "Right. No, this is it. This is what we need to do. This is how we need to tell the story." yeah.

8:04Jawad MirThat's amazing. No, it's, it's, it's so cool that the way this show is, the way the series is, it, you know, it just unravels, like I said earlier, like, the layers of onions one after the other. But obviously there's a lot of behind the scenes stuff that takes place, and you kind of talked about that briefly. But before I go to that, you shot four episodes, right?

8:30Baz IrvineI sh… yeah, I shot one, two, six, and seven.

8:36Jawad MirOkay

8:36Baz Irvine... And they're good, they're good eps… I mean, th… that's, the sort of economics and time of…

8:44Jawad MirYeah

8:44Baz Irvine... A modern show makes it that in this instance I could do, set the show up with one and two. But the reality is, like, you know, even as soon as the third or fourth week of shooting, we're already doing bits from, like, maybe four, you know?

9:01Jawad MirYeah.

9:01Baz IrvineYou've gotta, you've gotta utilize whatever sets or builds or, you know, some sets…

9:05Jawad MirYeah

9:05Baz Irvine... 'cause, like, obviously the main silo is there the whole time. That's, that's, like, an incredible studio st… stage which is always there. But some of the other stages we have to, like, you know, we have to turn sets round, like, huge sets.

9:19Jawad MirYes.

9:20Baz IrvineSo, yeah, so I did one, two, six, and seven, and I was on the show from... I mean, we obviously had COVID, we had the actors strike, we had the writers strike, so we had an enforced hiatus, like, two-thirds of the way through. But the m… the, like, the most weirdestly most kind of serendipitous thing that happened was that we finished shooting in the other silo on the day that the writers str… the actors strike forced us to stop.

9:50Baz IrvineSo we had that period of time to get silo 17 ready, because that obviously required, like, a huge amount of redressing and of art department work. You know, same structure. I mean, that's the idea. They're all identical to a point. So yeah, I mean, it's, it was a... You know, it was, it was never a da… I mean, if I wasn't shooting, I was shooting underwater tests, or I was looking at rigs that we were gonna, like, fly Rex, Rebecca through the air. We know her as Rex. You know, doing, pre-lighting other sets. I mean, it just, you know, it was a, it was a very immersive process.

10:37Jawad MirRight. Going back to your,.. I had another question, but I'll come back to it later. Going back to your beginnings…

10:47Baz IrvineRight

10:47Jawad Mir... I was going through your IMDb. I think the only title that I remembered in the '90s where you served as camera assistant, again, it's according to IMDb… ... But I don't know how... I know IMDb sometimes is not accurate 100%.

11:00Baz IrvineYeah. Yeah.

11:00Jawad MirIt was the, Anne Frank, documentary…

11:04Baz IrvineOh, yeah

11:04Jawad Mir... That was narrated by Kenneth Branagh.

11:06Baz IrvineYeah.

11:07Jawad MirJust your beginning of your career, I'm always interested in, you know, we all have stories about how we began our career. What was that one moment that did it? Do you remember?

11:17Baz IrvineYeah. I do, actually, 'cause, I had a little,.. I initially started in music. My dad was in the music business, and I had a little period of living in New York and, you know, o… only for a couple of years, and I thought I was gonna go in that direction, but I was always sort of obsessed by film. But growing up in Belfast, it was really restrictive, like, the access to projects, and I got onto a course in London that was called... It was a terrible name. It was called Job Fit, which is Joint Board of Film Industry Training. But it was, it was, conceived by Lord Puttnam, and basically it was to help people from outside London to get, to break into the industry, and to try and sort of, like, bypass the nepotism that was rife in that, in that era. And I… The way this course worked w… was I'd spent some time in the National Film School and at, Central London Poly, which is now University of Westminster. But the really valuable and amazing thing was we got to be...

12:17Baz IrvineI was a trainee on different projects, and I'd actually thought I was gonna s… settle in the, editing department. That felt right for me. I think other DOPs feel that way. But then I had to do one camera trainee thing to finish my first year, and it was Ken Loach, Riff-Raff, and with Barry Ackroyd, the DOP. And of course, so the light bulb moment was being on set with the camera, and, you know, and having been obsessed as a stills photographer up to that point, I sort of like went, "Hold on a second. So why did I think I was gonna be in the editing department?" You know, the kind of... O… o… A, of course, Ken Loach was unique in the way he orchestrated the drama on set. And I think that Barry Ackroyd, obviously, I ended up assisting Barry right through the '90s and we, you know, I focus pulled and, you know, worked on documentaries with him, as you said, the Anne Frank thing.

13:20Baz IrvineAnd I, you know, it, you know, so not only getting that chance, but then also working with him and seeing how his... The sort of documentary background bled into, his work. So yeah, I mean, that was it. And I think, I think... I mean, although this is so different, I think there was something about working with Ken back then and kind of understanding, like, his respect for actors and for the dramatic process was just so huge. You know, I, you know, we, you know, couldn't wear bright colors on set. We had to turn our back in the action. It was... You know, but it was... A… a… and I think, and you know, we didn't put marks down for actors because it was like, you know, that would've broken their... You know, so I learnt a lot about that. And then later on I got to work with other really great DOPs. I worked for, along with Seamus McGarvey, who's also Northern Irish and a good friend.

14:21Baz IrvineAnd you know, I got to work on different types of films. So, you know, o… once I found my path, you know, it was a very easy choice. I think it was really just about when I was gonna start to shoot, you know, 'cause that's ultimately the thing, isn't it? You work your way up and then sooner or later you know y… You just know it's the time. You just have to do it. Oh.

14:52Jawad MirSorry.

14:53Baz IrvineThat's okay.

14:53Jawad MirIn Silo, and in life, it's a two-part question, so you can pick whichever you…

14:59Baz IrvineOh.

15:00Jawad MirWhich order. You can hear me okay?

15:02Baz IrvineYeah, I can hear you now. Yeah.

15:03Jawad MirYeah.

15:03Baz IrvineYeah. I lost you for a sec.

15:04Jawad MirWorking on Silo, what was the most challenging thing that, you know, we... When we're on sets, like even if we love what we do, there are days when things drain you and they get onto you, and you're trying to figure out a solution. What was that one thing that really hit you professionally and emotionally, and how you overcame it? Plus same question but apply it to life in general. Nothing to do with film. It can be, but in general, if you're willing to share that.

15:39Baz IrvineWell, I mean, the, going into the set, I mean, working on a show of this scale with those sets is of course a challenge. And I think that, you know, you have to start working on the basis that, you know, everything is just a scale up. Everything's, like, two times or three times bigger than maybe I'd done before, or you know, some things. In terms of specifically Silo, I think it, the... It's the strangest show because it's set underground, as you know, and when you walk onto these sets, they are stunning. And like, I mean, they are... You know, the, some sets just don't feel, you know, they don't feel so great when you're, when you're there. But these ones, like the finish is the kind of brutalist concrete. I mean, it's weird. I'm standing in the Barbican at the minute in London because we're getting renovations done, and I'm like walking around the Barbican and it's like, oh my God.

16:40Baz IrvineIt's like, of course, you know, it's like such a big reference. But the... You stand on this set and it's like three floors high, and what you realize is this is not what you're filming. What you're filming is up there and down there, because the conceit is it's a, it's a mile high. And w… the biggest challenge for me as a cinematographer, which is a very sort of technical challenge, was to kind of go into the silo and then feel like I wasn't being restricted by just filming this set. I had to imagine everything from above and below, and tell the story of that. And I was really... I mean, I don't know how other cinematographers treated it, but I mean, I'm a big fan of J. G. Ballard and, you know, the whole high-rise thing obviously, you know, for me was just like a huge reference. I think, I think that... I mean, you know, I think everything, like, you know, I think, you know, just reading the first ep and realizing it was like a silent film, you know, really, apart from the flashback sequences, you know.

17:48Baz IrvineThis is like this incredible chance to do an action piece, you know, and it's a journey of discovery, and you don't wanna be ahead of the action because you don't wanna give it away. So we had to think of, you know, try to really feel like, you know, the challenge of trying to create, like the idea of like this first person narrative that you're following and you're with and making it... I definitely wanted to make it more s… sort of visceral and a little bit more kinetic than maybe season one, which is a little bit more sit back, 'cause it's world building. You know, it's establishing the whole idea of it. I think now we're in it, How am I gonna translate that to my life? The next part of the question…

18:30Jawad MirIt could be a separate, it could be a separate, it could be a separate incident altogether. It doesn't have to do…

18:35Baz IrvineYeah. I mean, I think being a cinematographer is, you know, it's never been easy. You know, it's... Like even now the industry's really quiet and, you know, it's a challenge. I think that I, you know, I find, I think the one thing that I know is that you've gotta be true to yourself and your vision. And if you know, if you wanna do a certain type of thing in cinematography, you've really gotta hold out for that. And I know the last sort of four or five years of my career I've really, like, kinda gone, "No, I'm not gonna compromise. I might be out of work for longer periods between jobs, but I really wanna do what I wanna do." and that doesn't mean that, you know, the next job has to be like Silo. You know, in fact something, I'd really love to do something quite different. I'm hoping, you know.

19:31Jawad MirRight

19:31Baz Irvine... But, you know, just because, you know, I think it's important to challenge yourself. But, I mean, life's tough. The last four or five years have been really tough for everybody, you know? So I think, you know, I think that,... But I think what's really interesting is, and you alluded to it earlier, is that what will it look like in 10 years' time when we look back at this, like, three or four year period of productivity and, you know, will we in 20 or 30 years' time talk about the COVID years in relation to art? You know, like how much, has that bled into, you know, has that intertwined with the narrative of what we do?

20:12Jawad MirRight.

20:13Baz IrvineYeah. Interesting.

20:16Jawad MirYeah. I mean, it's, it's something, y… I'm glad you mentioned what you just said. I talk about this occasionally on different pod episodes, is that, you know, we always get it, all of us, whether we're in the film industry or just in general in life, we always feel that we're not moving ahead.

20:34Jawad MirRight? In life…

20:34Baz IrvineYeah

20:34Jawad Mir... In profession.

20:35Baz IrvineYeah.

20:36Jawad MirAnd then we look at our life maybe six months away, ago or a year ago, and we don't see the difference, but I've... It is so important to look at your life in the last 25 years or 30 years, and then you start looking at how you have started from absolutely nothing to be where you are, which is not the destination of course, and then you see, wow, I've made strides. I have made a huge leap of, you know, jumps from here to there to be where I am, and I think that's when you appreciate all the time that you have worked. And I think that's important looking back in the long term.

21:14Baz IrvineYeah. I think you're right. I think, you know, I think, you know, it's... You know, I think it's been really interesting the last few years with mental health coming more to the forefront and stuff. And you know, it, you know, it is a tough industry, you know? And it, and you've gotta be tough, but you know, I think, you know, you can't be tough to the detriment of your feelings and your emotions. And it, you know, I know that, you know, and social media is like a dangerous echo chamber in our world, you know? And…

21:44Jawad MirYeah

21:44Baz Irvine... And, you know, it's, you know, it's really interesting. I think, you know, we, cinematographers, I think we've got a really good little fraternity community. And I've, I've definitely h… been having chats with other cinematographers in the last couple of years that we never have had before, where it used to be more, you know, i… cutthroat and, you know, and there was a lot of swagger and a lot of this and that. I feel like finally people are being honest about, you know, just the reality of life.

22:18Jawad MirIt, I call it m… misery loves company, right? Like…

22:21Baz IrvineYeah. That's it. That's it Yeah.

22:23Jawad MirY…

22:24Baz IrvineYeah

22:24Jawad Mir... You mentioned Barbican. Was it Barbican that you mentioned?

22:27Baz IrvineYeah

22:27Jawad Mir... In, i… are you talking about the Barbican Cinemas?

22:30Baz IrvineYeah. Well, the…

22:31Jawad MirIs that what it is?

22:31Baz IrvineWell, I'm, we're in this strange, situation where we've had to move out of, like, where I live in Camden, and we're in this estate that's next to the Barbican, which is called Golden Lane Estate, and it's famous because, have you seen any of Slow Horses, the, Apple TV show with Gary Oldman?

22:49Jawad MirI know it's Slow Horses.

22:51Baz IrvineOkay.

22:51Jawad MirI know what you're talking about, but I haven't seen it yet.

22:53Baz IrvineIt's a, it's, it's, it's got this,... Yeah. It's a, it's kind of a mixture of, all this brutalist architecture and strange alleys and walkways and, you know, you're not qu… quite sure which way you're going or where you're going.

23:08Jawad MirYeah.

23:08Baz IrvineAnd

23:09Jawad MirI... Yeah. Sorry, go on.

23:11Baz IrvineNo. I mean, I've just been in... But what... I mean, and it's incredibly inspirational because I've been, like, walking around with my new camera, you know, just loving it. A… I think it's like, you know, I feel like I'm on holiday in London because…... You know, a… and a holiday in this world. And realized that when that was built, the Barbican was built, like, '60s. I think it started maybe in the late '50s. That was also, like, a huge inspiration for writers and filmmakers at the time because, like, this sort of huge concrete Eastern European sort of city just suddenly landed in East London, you know? It's, like, amazing. And it, and it's great. And you know what? It really shows me, like, how important, you know, how... As a cinematographer, how important it is to hit the streets. You know? Even if you're not taking pictures…

24:02Jawad MirYeah

24:02Baz Irvine... Just walk around. Like, watch…

24:04Jawad MirObserve

24:04Baz Irvine... Watch it get dark, watch streetlights come on, watch shadows form. You know, just, like, you know, you gotta really take all that stuff in, you know? And it... And if you do, you can really inform your work, you know? It's, it... I love it. I mean, I could just, I could just walk all, you know, through... You know, any city I visit, you know, if I'm lucky enough to travel, is, like, I'm outside just at night, like, walking around. I love the…

24:33Jawad MirYeah.

24:33Baz IrvineIt's such a great thing to be able to do. And…

24:35Jawad MirI, it, I completely agree with you. That's what exactly what I do. Whenever I'm traveling, I find…

24:40Baz IrvineYeah

24:40Jawad Mir... I al… for work I always take one day And I just walk around. But the reason I asked about Barbican…

24:45Baz IrvineYeah

24:45Jawad Mir... Was because one of my films, In Search of My Sister, which is right here…

24:50Baz IrvineOh, yeah

24:50Jawad Mir... It was screened, it was screened at Barbican Cinemas.

24:53Baz IrvineAh, right, okay, yeah.

24:53Jawad MirAnd I remember when you were talking about Silo and Barbican…

24:57Baz IrvineYeah

24:57Jawad Mir... And it hit me, I'm like, "I remember walking in that building…"

25:01Baz IrvineYeah

25:01Jawad Mir... Up and down in those alleyways and skywalks…

25:03Baz IrvineYeah

25:03Jawad Mir... And the concrete…

25:04Baz IrvineYeah

25:05Jawad Mir... Everywhere.

25:06Baz IrvineYeah.

25:06Jawad MirAnd then at, I just remembered that. I didn't, I didn't realize that…

25:09Baz IrvineYeah

25:09Jawad Mir... How similar it is to Silo.

25:10Baz IrvineYeah. It's, it's, well, I'm not 100% sure 'cause I never met the production designer who did the first season. It was a…

25:18Jawad MirYeah

25:18Baz Irvine... A brilliant new production designer, Nicole, who did season two, but, I, the Barbican obviously came to mind, but there was also, years ago I was lucky enough, I was in J… Johannesburg, and I was lucky enough, I hope I've got the name right, it's called the Ponte Tower, and it's a circular tower that was built I think, again, in about the '60s by, a, the famous Italian architect. And it, basically has a central core which is, which is empty, and it must've been a huge inspiration for the production designer of season one. Never got a chance to ask him.

25:54Baz IrvineAnd in that tower, I think it might've changed since, but when I got a chance to go into it, and this is like in, like round about, oh God, sometime in like t… about 2007, it was like the better flats were at the top, and they threw the rubbish down in the middle, and it was hell. The bottom three floors were literally the mechanical world, the underworld. It was, it was terrifying. So when I got into the Silo, my, I was instantly... I kept saying to people, "Oh, this is, you know, based on that tower in Johannesburg," and everybody looked at me as if to say, "What are you talking about?" but you know, it... And it's funny, there's a film coming out, I haven't seen it yet, I'm really desperate to see it, called The Brutalist, which, i… is about a brutalist architect, whose name I don't remember. And I think it's four hours long or nearly four hours.

26:54Jawad MirYeah.

26:54Baz IrvineYeah.

26:54Jawad MirI'm just looking at it. It's three and a half hours long. It's not…

26:56Baz IrvineThree and a half hours long.

26:57Jawad MirSo.

26:57Baz IrvineI can't mean, I cannot wait to see it. 'Cause I think a lot…

27:01Jawad MirI think it's…

27:01Baz Irvine... I think a lot of D-O…

27:02Jawad MirSorry

27:02Baz Irvine... DOPs are sort of have, are sort of frustrated architects. You know? There's, there's definitely a symbiosis. There's definitely a symmetry between us.

27:14Jawad MirYeah. What cameras did you guys use? Was it Venice?

27:17Baz IrvineNo, we used a Sony, I'm sorry, we used the Alexa, the Mini LFs. They'd used them in the first season and, you know, the thing is, y… you know, I, the, I did two things for season two. I changed, the format for the first season was two to one, and when I walked into the Silo I was like, "Guys, it's like, you know, even though it is vertical, the sets I could see were built for, like, 239, so like wide screen, whatever you wanna call it.

27:45Jawad MirYeah.

27:45Baz IrvineAnd I also changed the lenses. I just, you know, it, th… that's a very hard, a very subtle thing that I wanted to do just slightly differently, a slightly more retro feel and…

27:56Jawad MirSure.

27:56Baz IrvineBut d… but, we used the Alexa Mini LFs, and you know, it worked really well for season one. I love Sonys too. I think when you go onto a show like that and they're doing post-production for the first season, you know, i… it's a kinda, i… it's a bit of a willful choice to just wanna change the cameras when you know they've got a process that's up and running. And I knew that,... So I think, you know, I, changing the lenses and changing the ratio was like, that felt like, okay, I've got, I've got my way. But I've worked in, you know, I mean, I lo… I love the Sonys, Sony Venice as well. You know, it's, I, but I think, you know, you gotta, like, be honest with yourself as a cinematographer. I think, you know, I, you've gotta approach every project and really try and not be prejudiced about what you think you need to use, especially lenses.

28:52Jawad MirYeah.

28:52Baz IrvineThere's so much ego with lenses. You know? So the notion that you br… if you work with some amazing set of G series anamorphics from Panavision, which are incredible, that you're gonna imbue the story with some... And I love them. I don't, g… get me wrong, I'd love to work with them, but I just mean that, you know, you've really gotta try to put your ego at the door and go, "Right, let's…

29:13Jawad MirYeah

29:14Baz Irvine... What's right?" Like, test, you know? Work it out. You know, you might be surprised, and I love it when I read about a cinematographer who's ended up using something left field because they worked out that was the best way to go. You know, I think, you know, it's, you know, it's really fascinating how much glass, different type of glass can affect, you know, on a very subliminal level, how we perceive things.

29:41Jawad MirYeah.

29:41Baz IrvineYou know, especially sets, you know?

29:43Jawad MirYeah. No, I agree, and I think, so for me personally, I mean, I've, I've done ridiculous amount of editing, I've done… ... Ridiculous amount of camera operating.

29:53Baz IrvineYeah.

29:54Jawad MirMaybe cinematography in there, not too much, but directing as, for m… one of the things that I've sort of learned as a director is that it's so important now, and I think that comes with time and experience, is that you forget about the equipment. You just throw that out the window.

30:09Baz IrvineYeah.

30:10Jawad MirAnd you focus on your story. And if I can pick on anything when I'm watching a film in terms of look, it, I, obviously I can tell anamorphic versus, you know, 16 by 9.

30:22Baz IrvineYeah.

30:22Jawad MirBut an average audience won't even notice the anamorphic versus 16 by 9, especially when they're watching on TV screen or movie theater.

30:29Baz IrvineYeah.

30:29Jawad MirSo i… it's all about the story. And then speaking about cameras, have you read about 28 days, 28 Years Later that's being shot on iPhone 15 Pro Max?

30:38Baz IrvineI s… I, somebody, it's been, I've heard it mentioned, yeah. And you know.

30:44Jawad MirYeah.

30:44Baz IrvineYeah. But I mean… You know, what, of course, like, and also, like I say, you know, one of the things we do is we do, you know, as you know, recces, and we... You know, and it's very easy to pull out a Leica or a Hasselblad on a recce, but like…

30:58Jawad MirYeah

30:58Baz Irvine... You know, I, you know, I see the world like, partially filtered through the iPhone, you know? And it's, it's such a great tool. So…

31:08Jawad MirYeah

31:08Baz Irvine... You know, I mean, you know, and it, we, you know, all of our apps where we can s… you know, frame with like Artemis and things that are on an iPhone, but yeah, I mean, great. Like…

31:18Jawad MirIt's, it's amazing. I mean, obviously they're using, you know, map boxes and a… ... Whole lot of other equipment. But I've shot some stuff with 15 Pro Max, not even like a camera app, like Filmic or Blackmagic…

31:31Jawad Mir... Just actually within the app.

31:34Baz IrvineYeah.

31:34Jawad MirIt is insane without…... Color correction, and like the highlights are there, the, you know…

31:39Baz IrvineYeah

31:40Jawad Mir... Everything. It's, it's crazy, and I wonder, I wonder… ... How long before Apple will start shooting all of their series on the iPhones.

31:49Baz IrvineI mean, like, I think, yeah, I mean, I think it's inevitable, you know? A… and, a… and also it's like, you know, we, even just down to like filters that you can quickly use and, you know, to do stuff.

32:04Jawad MirYeah.

32:04Baz IrvineI mean, I think it's brilliant. I love, I love how, you know, the iPhone is... I mean, I say the iPhone or phone, phones, you know, have…

32:15Jawad MirYeah

32:15Baz Irvine... Sort of like o… opened up, like a whole new world of, you know, like when it comes to inspiration for jobs, you know, like, you know, obviously there's still all the great c… like forget about cinematography, but there's great photographers, you know, the Egglestons and, you know, that we've referenced time and time again. And now more and more, when I'm, like, doing mood boards for a job or I'm getting imagery, I'm pulling street photographers off Instagram. You know, some of whom have just shot stuff on their iPhones, and I'm just so blown away by that…

32:49Jawad MirIt's crazy

32:50Baz Irvine... Imagery. And I'm finding more and more that, you know, that's the imagery that inspires me, you know? Especially, you know, like night and cities, which of course I've already mentioned, so slight obsession. But, you know, it's just, you know, it's, it's this kind of huge, democratization of the, of how we see things and how people can have access to creating imagery that I love it, you know? I mean, bring it on.

33:18Jawad MirYeah.

33:18Baz IrvineYou know?

33:19Jawad MirI mean, it's, technology has done so much. I was just watching some ad on Instagram. So basically you can m… sh… you can shoot a short film or a… ... Feature film, whatever, with the script and the human beings doing their actions as you have written it in the script, and there's an app or some AI software which literally converts everything from real to Pixar style animation.

33:51Baz IrvineOh, God.

33:52Jawad MirIn… including the environments…

33:54Baz IrvineReally? My God

33:54Jawad Mir... And everything.

33:56Baz IrvineWow.

33:56Jawad MirAnd I'm like, you know, if I wanna make an animation now…

34:00Baz IrvineYeah

34:01Jawad Mir... Why would I go to an anim… you know, I'm, as much as I would love to, but from a logistic and, you know, money standpoint, why would you do that?

34:08Baz IrvineYeah. Yeah.

34:08Jawad MirYou know? It's, it's changing everything. It's changing…

34:11Baz IrvineYeah

34:11Jawad Mir... A lot of stuff.

34:12Baz IrvineYeah. I mean, it is, and I, you know, I'm... But look, you know, I feel lucky in a way because I'm a, you know, u… ultimately I'm a film baby, you know? I grew up…

34:21Jawad MirYeah

34:22Baz Irvine... On film. And I was lucky, you know, as a cinematographer, I worked a lot on film before going digital. And you know, thank God because, you know

34:31Jawad MirYes

34:31Baz Irvine... It's, you know, it, you know, it, and, you know, g… and of course that has a huge influence on me and the films and shows that I watched that first really, you know, t… turned me on to cinematography. But I wonder what I'd feel like if I didn't have that, hadn't had that opportunity. But then after saying that, you know, like I've been looking at some other cinematographer's work just even this morning, you know, for the BSC, and, you know, it's just like stunning, you know?

35:04Jawad MirYeah.

35:04Baz IrvineI mean, that's the one thing about digital is, you know, it, Filmic, film, the process of shooting and developing on film kind of made it this sort of slightly, you know, enigmatic sort of thing that was wasn't accessible, and now it's like, you know, the greatest…

35:23Jawad MirYeah

35:23Baz Irvine... Image of the year could be created by some kid in the streets in Mumbai. You know, it's like, that's, that's the beauty of it, you know?

35:31Jawad MirBut I also think I can speak for myself and maybe, I think you probably would say the same thing, if I hadn't shot on, Bolex 16 millimeter and done flatbed editing… ... I probably wouldn't be what I am today the way I am because of that, and I think it's the same, similar for people who are growing up on iPhones and AI, is to have that knowledge at least just for the sake of it so it helps you go in that direction…

36:02Baz IrvineYeah

36:02Jawad Mir... A little bit more easily and efficiently.

36:04Baz IrvineYeah. Yeah, no, I think you're right. Yeah. But I agree as well. Like, I edited on film, you know, Steenbecks and, you know…

36:11Jawad MirOh, yeah

36:12Baz Irvine... I did this, like, track cut. Was it called track cutting? I was trying to remember what…

36:16Jawad MirYeah.

36:17Baz IrvineSorry.

36:17Jawad MirYou would put them in the sprockets…

36:18Baz IrvineOh, my God. Yeah

36:18Jawad Mir... And then you would cut them…

36:20Baz IrvineAnd then carry…

36:20Jawad Mir... And you would tape them and…

36:21Baz Irvine... Huge tins to, like, Metrocolor and, you know, and it, you know, it was... Oh, man, it was such like th… those days of... I feel really lucky. And the other, do you know what? You know what's really crazy? Somebody was asking me the other day, he's like, "You asked me about my first start in film."

36:37Jawad MirYeah.

36:37Baz IrvineAnd I was talking about Ken Loach. Well, the other film I got to be a trainee on in that period was David Fincher's Aliens 3.

36:48Jawad MirOh my God, no way

36:49Baz IrvineBy the way, so I was, like, the, I wasn't the only trainee 'cause it was such a big film, but I rocked up at Pinewood. Once again, it was in the snow. I remember I had to like leave London at like 3:00 in the morning to get like a bus and a train and another bus to get to Pinewood. I didn't have a car. And I walked onto set and, you know, within s… two minutes I'm in with the camera crew, and Sigourney Weaver is stood there and, you know, and Fincher is like, nobody knows who Fincher is. Like, he, you know…

37:20Jawad MirYeah

37:20Baz Irvine... And, you know, a… a… a… and at that point the DOP was Jordan Cronenweth, the, you know, the great DOP who shot, Blade Runner. And, I mean, if I could sort of teleport myself back to that time, because obviously like then I wasn't able to process cinematography. I was like terrified of like, you know, anything that I had to do. Any chore, even just making tea. You know, it was, it was pretty…

37:49Jawad MirYeah

37:49Baz Irvine... Brutal days, you know? You weren't, it wasn't, it wasn't so enlightened. And also that film, and again, Aliens 3 had the, you know, it was a prison planet in the future. I mean, talk about dystopian future, brutalist sort of imagery. You know, but, you know, I got to see, you know, Jordan Cronenweth do stuff. I mean, he was, starting to become ill. I can't remember, you know, where, I think Parkinson's. And, you know, and then Alex Thompson came in, who was another, like this great British DOP who worked with Nick Roeg and, you know, you know, did some amazing stuff. And he took over and, you know, and, you know, it was just an amazing time, you know? But yeah, all of those early film in… influences and load… you know, loading camera, you know, 16 mil and, you know…

38:44Baz Irvine... It's, it, but I think, you know, it's sort of how I feel about dig… I mean, one thing that really winds me up it, when I'm shooting digital is I'm trying to think like all, this is probably like the last job I'll ever do now. But like some directors will just let the camera roll. Like they literally will never cut. And…

39:05Jawad MirYeah

39:05Baz Irvine... And the thing is, it actually costs a lot of money 'cause you have to process everything you shoot. So if you run for 20, 30 seconds after, you know, you said cut or whatever, you know, that all has to get processed. So it's like, but I love, you know, the discipline of knowing that film is expensive…

39:24Jawad MirYeah

39:24Baz Irvine... And knowing that you've gotta be, turn it o… you know, turn over at the right time and cut at the right time is

39:30Jawad MirYeah

39:30Baz Irvine... It, you know, that's something I wish everybody could learn…

39:35Jawad MirAgree

39:36Baz Irvine... Or just feel, you know, because, you know, and I remember when we used to do high speed stuff and like Photosonics, you know, we used to call it like a money machine because you could just hear the film like, whir, whizzing through the camera.

39:49Jawad MirYeah.

39:49Baz IrvineAnd you could literally see the kind of like figures just in front of you based on the money that o… that was being spent on stock. But, not anymore. Back in the day.

40:02Jawad MirNo, it's, it's true. I've, you know, when I've edited a lot for somebody else…

40:05Baz IrvineYeah

40:05Jawad Mir... A while ago, like there would be like an, you know, in an interview would just keep running and even like B-roll shots, like, you know, when they're fall…

40:13Baz IrvineYeah.

40:13Jawad MirAnd like to, for an editor to go through that…

40:16Baz IrvineYeah

40:16Jawad Mir... It's, it's a lot of time, right?

40:17Baz IrvineYeah, of course.

40:18Jawad MirBut going back to Alien 3, I'm so glad you mentioned that because… ... I prevented myself from watching Alien 3 until two months ago.

40:27Baz IrvineOh, really? Wow, okay.

40:28Jawad MirBecause I had heard such terrible things.

40:30Baz IrvineYeah.

40:31Jawad MirBut at the moment the film started, the cinematography and the concept… I mean, besides the visual effects, which are probably the only down part of the film, I thought it was a really good film. I mean, the atmosphere. Typical Fincher, right? Like style and…

40:48Baz IrvineYeah

40:48Jawad Mir... It was such a well done film, and good that you were part of it, man. That's awesome.

40:52Baz IrvineWell, yeah, I mean, and I think it also interesting 'cause it was on the cusp of VFX taking over. I think when you got to Alien 4…

40:59Jawad MirYeah

41:00Baz Irvine... Th… then all of the Aliens became fully VFX at that point. And, you know, in, on Aliens 3, like I remember shooting some test days where we had like Whippets on set, sets being pulled into little alien, you know, o… outfits so that, they could sk… you know, like they would slide a… along the, like the tile floors and, you know, it was, you know, and also, you know, all of the, you know, those huge fireball effects and that were real and also the B…

41:33Jawad MirYeah

41:33Baz Irvine... The British cast, you know, it was…

41:35Jawad MirYes

41:36Baz Irvine... You know, if you look at, it's like a who's who of like, these incredible, actors. You know, some of them aren't with us anymore and, you know, a… as I say, I obviously can only, I look through back now with, the optics of, you know, being in the industry for a while. But like…

41:54Jawad MirYeah

41:54Baz Irvine... I really do wish, oh my God, you know, to see the guy who shot Blade Runner lighting sets at Pinewood, but not having any understanding at all of what he was doing. If I could turn the clock back, that would be…

42:10Jawad MirYeah

42:10Baz Irvine... My little, week I'd like to revisit.

42:14Jawad MirThat would be for sure.

42:15Baz IrvineYeah.

42:15Jawad MirThat would be for sure.

42:16Baz IrvineYeah.

42:17Jawad MirYou know, with Silo, now that you've shot it and everything, what's, I, for number one, before we wrap this up, I would love to speak to you again when episode six and eight comes out, if you're up for it.

42:30Baz IrvineYeah, d… yeah. Yeah

42:31Jawad Mir... Number two, what's next for you? Is there anything we're have… that you are gonna talk…

42:35Baz IrvineI think the, I mean, look, this stuff, you know, it's, the industry, I mean, o… o… al… also just to say that when you do a show like Silo, and luckily being the lead DOP and being heavily involved, it doesn't finish when the show finishes, so… I was on the show for 15 months, and I needed a break. I took a couple of months off afterwards. But in the summer, I was grading it. You know, I was going into Company 3 in London and working…

43:02Baz Irvine... With a colorist in, Toronto, amazing colorist, Bill.

43:07Jawad MirOh, I'm in Toronto.

43:08Baz IrvineOh, are you? Okay. Well…

43:09Jawad MirYeah

43:09Baz Irvine... Yeah, cool. Well, I would've loved to have been there, but the days were quite sort of spread out.

43:16Jawad MirYeah.

43:16Baz IrvineBut, you know, so I really had the... I... The thing is, it, I could've just gone on to another job immediately, but I, at that point, I just thought, "Oh, God. Wouldn't it be great to just have a summer and see this job through and actually, you know, really be there to control the visuals and the look and the, you know, the coloring." You know, for people who don't know it, you know, that time in the, in the, you know, with the, you know, with the colorist is like, well, it's just essential, you know? And, so now I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm ju… I... You know, I'm just considering other things, you know? And I think there've been a little... There's definitely been a very quiet period in the UK, and I think the streamers and I think for many…

44:02Jawad MirIt's everywhere, man. It's everywhere.

44:03Baz IrvineYou know, it's like for everybody it's been the same, and I'm like, you know, I know there's good things coming up at the start of next year. I can't really say anything that, you know, sort of jinx anything, but…

44:16Jawad MirYeah

44:16Baz Irvine... I think m… my aim for next year is to shoot above ground, you know, and see the sunshine and, You know.

44:25Jawad MirInside.

44:25Baz IrvineI've... Listen, I don't mind a bit of dystopian future, you know, although I have to say The Guardian this morning described, ep one, they said, i… in a very kind of, sort of flattering way I think they described it as visual sludge. And I think they were referring to the kind of the darkness of it and the kind of thing. So I'm gonna try and do some, above ground visual sludge…

44:52Jawad MirYeah

44:52Baz Irvine... With maybe not as sludgy as normal.

44:56Jawad MirYeah. No, it's, I... You know what? It's funny you mention that because one of the things, and I know it's done for purpose…

45:01Baz IrvineYeah

45:01Jawad Mir... Because the story demands it. Like, when I was watching the first season, the first episode I'm like, "Holy crap. I can't deal with this. This is so depressing." And this was around…... COVID and all. I, you know? Then you get used to it, but then obviously when sh… you know, when you see the outside…

45:17Jawad Mir... The contrast is important. So the audience feels that they, you have to be in that, you know, depressing environment, and then you have to feel that, you know, trees and spring type weather and

45:31Baz IrvineYeah

45:31Jawad Mir... But yeah, it can, it can take a toll on the audience too, for sure. It certainly did for me with the first episode the last season.

45:38Baz IrvineWell, I think the first episode of this season, you know, it starts obviously outside.

45:42Jawad MirWell, yeah.

45:43Baz IrvineBut we, there are bits that are dark, but you know, that is the story, you know? And I…

45:46Jawad MirBut you buy into it, right? Because you've invested your time into it.

45:48Baz IrvineYeah, of course.

45:48Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

45:49Baz IrvineYeah, you gotta be... You gotta, and you got... And you know, as a cinematographer, you've gotta be brave because you are gonna be the only one who's fighting to keep it that dark. You know, you're the one who knows probably the levels you can get away with 'cause everybody else's interest is just, is to see more. And I'm like, "No, less."

46:11Jawad MirYes. That's a, that's a DP. Every…

46:14Baz IrvineYeah

46:14Jawad Mir... DP's like that.

46:15Baz IrvineOh, yeah.

46:15Jawad MirLess lighting.

46:16Baz IrvineGood.

46:16Jawad MirAmazing, Baz, man. Thank you so much for your time.

46:20Baz IrvineOkay. Yeah.

46:20Jawad MirIt's truly been a pleasure. I would love to continue talking, I just…

46:24Baz IrvineYeah. Yeah

46:25Jawad Mir... You know. But, let's, let's chat again. We'll reach out to your agent.

46:29Baz IrvineYeah. No, absolutely, please.

46:29Jawad MirAnd…

46:29Baz IrvineI've been an absolute pleasure. Yeah.

46:31Jawad MirSo you did one, two, six, and eight, right?

46:34Baz IrvineOne, no, one, two, six and seven. And there's a…

46:36Jawad MirSeven, okay

46:36Baz Irvine... There's a couple of things that happen in seven especially that are quite different. I think, I'm pretty sure that Apple are releasing each, an ep a week, so, actually I think there's maybe gonna be like three eps start of the new year by the time, something like that. So yeah, we can, we can…

46:57Jawad MirYeah

46:57Baz Irvine... Chat again. I'd love to.

46:59Jawad MirYeah. No, absolutely. I'm, we're gonna try to, I mean, we've done this in the past, we're gonna try to get access to the series…

47:04Baz IrvineYeah. Yeah

47:05Jawad Mir... Early.

47:05Baz IrvineYeah. Yeah.

47:06Jawad MirAnd if we are able to, then we will probably chat again, but we won't release it until the date comes out.

47:10Baz IrvineOkay.

47:10Jawad MirSo, yeah.

47:11Baz IrvineGreat.

47:11Jawad MirBut we'll keep in touch. Awesome, man.

47:13Baz IrvineTake care, man. Listen…

47:14Jawad MirThank you, sir. Appreciate…

47:15Baz IrvineYeah

47:15Jawad Mir... Your time. Pleasure talking to you.

47:16Baz IrvineOkay. Okay. You too. Bye-bye now.

47:18Jawad MirAll right. Take care. Bye-bye.

47:27Baz IrvineBye.