'Small Soldiers', VFX Supervisor, John Rosengrant

0:08Jawad MirWelcome back everyone to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast. Today my guest is someone I've already had on the podcast a few times, John Rosengart. He's a VFX puppeteer who has worked on films like Terminator, Aliens, Jurassic Park. Today he's here to talk about Small Soldiers, Joe Dante's directed film. Came out in July 10th, 1998. I had a great time chatting with him about the film. I also spoke to Marshall Harvey about four or five months ago about Small Soldiers, who was the editor. You can check out that conversation too. Do subscribe, comment and like, and if there's a guest that you want to see or a film that you want to have covered, please leave it in the comment. For now, enjoy my conversation with John Rosengart for Small Soldiers.

0:51John RosengrantHey man, how are you?

0:53Jawad MirI'm good, John. How are you?

0:54John RosengrantLet's see if you can see me. Can you see me now? Yeah.

0:58Jawad MirI can always see you. How have you been? How was your Thanksgiving?

1:04John RosengrantGood. Yeah, it was great.

1:07Jawad MirGood. Did you, visit family or family visited you or...?

1:12John RosengrantFa… l… local family. And it was the first year that I didn't have to cook, so it was great.

1:20Jawad MirSuper. That's awesome. Awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much, man, again for joining…

1:24John RosengrantOh, sure

1:25Jawad Mir... To talk about Small Soldiers.

1:28John RosengrantYeah.

1:28Jawad MirI don't know if I told you this, but I spoke to the editor, Marshall Harvey, four or five months ago about that, about Small Soldiers. He edited the film.

1:40John RosengrantReally?

1:40Jawad MirYeah. It was a great conversation, and obviously your work in the film and your team's work in the film was integral to the film with that, 'cause without it wouldn't be what it is today. So really happy to chat about that.

1:56John RosengrantOkay. Well, I'm, I have fond memories of that movie.

2:02Jawad MirYeah.

2:02John RosengrantI liked it. It was, it was good fun. And, you know, I have a hobby where I do, military miniatures, so it was, it was kind of fun to be able to create something like this.

2:17Jawad MirThat's awesome. Did you have a hob… that hobby back then when you were doing Small Soldiers?

2:20John RosengrantI did. I did. Yeah.

2:23Jawad MirInteresting.

2:24John RosengrantYeah.

2:24Jawad MirTell me about that a little bit, the hobby. That would be really cool to know.

2:27John RosengrantSo it's just fun. I mean, ever since I was a teenager, I started sc… sculpting and painting and creating my own miniatures. And I don't know, I like the military history, so I tie into that. And so when this movie came along, it was,.. Felt like a real natural fit. And so from what I remember, there were some designs from Hasbro, plus we started doing some designs and, we meaning the team at, Stan Winston Studio, and it was basically Crash, Mark McCreery and myself and, I don't know, there's a few others that were designing, but we ended up, coming up with some characters that ended up in the movie, so it was fun.

3:23Jawad MirThat's really cool. I still remember when the first time ever, like, the teaser was revealed or, you know, you see the visuals, it was kinda like, you know, Toy Story meets Gremlins almost.

3:35John RosengrantYeah

3:35Jawad Mir... You know, obviously Joe Dante directed Gremlins and Small Soldiers.

3:39John RosengrantRight. Right.

3:40Jawad MirAnd, it… and it's, it's such a, it's one of those films I... And we talked about Jurassic Park last time where I didn't, again, I discovered this after I spoke to Marshall Harvey, that there is a big community of Small Soldier fans and there's act…

3:55John RosengrantIs there?

3:56Jawad MirYeah. And there's actually people who make those miniatures like the way you would do, and I don't know…

4:01John RosengrantRight

4:01Jawad Mir... If in Europe or somewhere, and it's a bit, it's a big fan base and there's no... It was just such a good cast movie, especially Tommy Lee Jones…

4:10John RosengrantYeah

4:10Jawad Mir... You know, being Captain Chip. You talked about fond memories. You know, when I talk about Small Soldiers, what is the first thing that comes to mind in terms of your work on it and the process that you guys went through in…

4:25John RosengrantWell, you know, we had the Gorgonites, which were the good guys…

4:30Jawad MirYeah

4:30John Rosengrant... But those were the monsters, and so those were a lot of fun. Y… y… you know, and each artist sort of took one and made it his own, his own thing. And then the villains in the, in the movie were the soldiers. But you know, I ended up doing a l… a lot of the soldiers, sculpting and, creating those. And, then a lot of other artists, Joey Orosco, he did Archer, Bill Basso, he did Freakenstein, Jim Sharmatz, he did, Slamfist. Ian Stevenson, you know, I can't quite remember everybody…

5:18Jawad MirYeah. That's fine

5:19John Rosengrant... At all. But you know, it was, it was fun. We each kind of dove in and, a… and it was also trying to come up with different types of puppets that were rod puppeted, puppets that were self-contained that you could kind of set down and turn on, and it had some s… some functions. And so we had a whole bevy of different types of, puppets to use in each scene, you know. And there were times when we could get in there with a full rod cable puppet, and then there's other times when it was more of the self-contained, which was, had like an RC head on it and I think maybe the body swiveled. But it had enough to where in a, in a wide shot it looked like it was moving and doing something. So that was fun.

6:20John RosengrantAnd we had to, 'cause at the time they didn't have a scratch track or anything, so we the puppeteers had to do the voices… ... Of the characters. And so we had to learn the dialogue and do all that, whi… which makes sense because if they're speaking, you just as an actor you need to hear the lines and, w… we did a lot with that, with that young boy and, who's... I'm sure he's a grown man by now, but back then he was, he was a young boy. And Kirsten Dunst I think was in this movie.

7:02Jawad MirYeah.

7:03John RosengrantYeah, and I had worked with her on Interview with a Vampire a few years earlier. So I don't know. It was just a fun movie. It was a challenging film. And I remember, Steven Spielberg coming by a few times. He was interested in it and I was talking to him and that one time, I think he was doing Band of Brothers pickup shots over at Universal…

7:30John Rosengrant... At the same time. So he brought the team from Band of Brothers over to check out the small soldiers, the big soldiers looking at the small soldiers.

7:40Jawad MirOh, that's so cool.

7:41John RosengrantThat was a, that was a fun moment. You know, and at the time, you know, nobody had seen Private Ryan, so I didn't, I didn't know what was coming on and I was talking to Matt Damon and, you know, the whole cast of Private Ryan. So it was fun.

7:59Jawad MirYeah.

7:59John RosengrantSo…

7:59Jawad MirBecause this came out literally I think 18 days before Private Ryan came out. 'Cause I think Private Ryan was July 23rd and this was July 4th or 5th, something like that.

8:12John RosengrantYeah.

8:13Jawad MirBeing involved in the, you know, the puppeteer work and the animatronics, and it's one of those films when I was talking to Marshall Harvey, it's a very rarity where you have, you know, a combination of puppet work with v… with CGI blend in perfectly. Like very few…

8:35Jawad Mir... Films have done that. Like, maybe Jams… James Cameron has done that with Terminator. Spielberg has done with Jurassic Park. How involved were you with the VFX teams at the time of production in terms of... You know, obviously there, I'm assuming there would b… there would be storyboards at the time of production. This is where we're gonna get like a full body shot, that way, you know?

8:54John RosengrantThere was storyboards, so we sort of, you know, it being an Amblin production there was a lot of the same team that was involved with the Jurassic Park. So we sort of went through it and did the same treatment as we had with the Jurassic Parks. We went through, figured out what we could do, what d… sorry, what definitely had to be CGI and, you know, I remember m… meeting with all of the ILM team on that movie at the same time. And I think because they weren't real characters it made it, more seamless for the, for them to match what we had done. And, you know, match, making a toy come to life, it was, it was good for both of us. It was good for the CG, it was good for us because you needed it to make it cool, but it didn't have to be, completely real, you know, 'cause it's a toy.

10:07Jawad MirYeah.

10:08John RosengrantSo that was helpful. There was a lot to do on that movie. There was a lot of shots. It was,.. And we were involved with a whole boatload of them. I remember working pretty hard on that movie. Went on for a while, but it was fun. Fun. Joe Dante is great. You know, he understood this type of work coming…

10:37Jawad MirYeah

10:37John Rosengrant... From, you know, The Howling and, Gremlins.

10:40Jawad MirGremlins.

10:41John RosengrantYeah.

10:43Jawad MirYeah.

10:43John RosengrantSo he was well-versed in, you know, the... Once I showed him what the bag of tricks was they were s… you know, "We would need the self-contained for this. We need the blah for that." So it was good. It was a, it was a fun experience. So.

11:03Jawad MirYeah. No, it was a fun experience watching it even now. Again, I watched it recently, before I spoke to Marshall and it still lives up. It still lives up. It may not have done box office-wise that well but, it's still a great film. And you know, y… you mentioned that how there was a lot of work that you had to do. Do you r… if there was one thing that you can remember that stands out about working on a certain character or just in a scene in particular, were any kind of technical challenges that you guys may have come across and how…

11:37John RosengrantI think the Gwendy character. I didn't have that much to... I had so much to do with the Gorgonites and the soldiers themselves that those Gwendys were being handled a bit afar and I didn't… ... Have my hands directly on them in the same way. But those, they had to do a lot and I remember that being challenging. I don't remember the exact challenges now, but at the time I remember this being like oof, you know? There's a lot to do here.

12:17Jawad MirYeah. Did you know, that there was, the marketing campaign behind Small Soldiers are very similar to the marketing campaign of Godzilla at the time that was coming out two months before?

12:29John RosengrantNo.

12:29Jawad MirDid you know that?

12:29John RosengrantI did not know that, no.

12:31Jawad MirOkay. So, the way the Godzilla movie was promoted from the director of Independence Day, Ronald... I never, still never know how to pronounce his last name. Is it Emmerich or Emmerich? One or the other. It... They were all about size does matter. And then DreamWorks promoted its side, doesn't matter. And then one of the co… and Marshall told me about this, and it's, it's on YouTube. So the very first Juras… sorry, Godzilla teaser that came out, it was shot in a museum where kids are looking at dinosaur skeletons, and all of a sudden there's this big paw that comes in and the Godzilla comes out.

13:07John RosengrantYeah, I remember that.

13:07Jawad MirSo according to Marshall Harvey, and this is again on YouTube, DreamWorks hired the same agency, same actors, recreated shot-by-shot trailer, and instead of the Godzilla foot, it was I think Chip Hazard's foot that comes in. But when they, when they showed it to Spielberg, I think, he said, "It's not a good idea. We're gonna get sued." So they never, they never released it because Sony was gonna end up suing them. But I think that was pretty brilliant for them to do that.

13:37John RosengrantOh, that's funny. That's funny. Yeah, I mean, I kinda remember this now when... Now that you mention it, the ad campaign. But, you know, I sort of forget about that sort of a thing once…

13:52Jawad MirYeah, it's not your job.

13:53John RosengrantYeah.

13:53Jawad MirOnce the movie's done, you're out. That's it.

13:55John RosengrantYeah. Once the movie's done…

13:57Jawad MirYou're

13:57John Rosengrant... The promotional campaigns are what they are. I remember, you know, we designed the boxes and the toy boxes that they came in and, you know, we had a lot to do on that movie. And we manufactured, some of the toy boxes, and then I think we turned over the artwork to the art department and they made a boatload of them to put in the shelves in the store and it was fun. We had to... You know, we did a few things like on the soldiers. I had these custom-made big giant dog tags made with the…

14:40John Rosengrant... Small Soldiers symbol on them, the same one that was on their belt buckle. But I went and had those made in homage to the old G.I. Joe dog tags that were oversized, you know?

14:53Jawad MirNice.

14:53John RosengrantI don't know if anybody notices that kind of thing in the movie, but yeah. Anyway, it's there.

15:00Jawad MirI'm, I'm sure people did. I didn't grow up with G.I. Joe, so I probably didn't see that, but, I'm sure people did. And I think that's what they talked about when the movie came out, like, it was, like, sort of like a, you know, the G.I. Joe action figures. Obviously you would see them on TV at the time, the ads that would come in, because it was a big deal in the '90s, early to mid '90s, G.I. Joes.

15:20John RosengrantYeah

15:20Jawad Mir... And you know, you talked about you were doing all this miniature work anyways, and any of that sort of miniature or miniatures that transformed over closest to any of the Small Soldier figures that you see…

15:36John RosengrantWell, it was a lot of the techniques that I had used we did to build and mold the weapons and the equipment and things like that. So there's similarities, and the whole time I was trying to, pay homage to, like you said, the G.I. Joe, but not making it look l… you know. They didn't look anything like the G.I. Joes. So we weren't worried about that, but I don't know. I thought it was, it was fun to y… you know, put some of that into them. So if peop… the way the weapons were put in the box with them and, you know, different things like that. It was fun. Fun stuff.

16:27Jawad MirYeah. You know, I always wonder, and I'm sure people do too, like, obviously for studios to make a sequel, it has to be a financially viable product or a film, right? That's just the way, the way the system works. I was just looking it up right now. Like, I think, like, it was suppo… it was made for, like, 40 million budget in U… in US and Canada. It only made 54 million. Was there ever a conversation when you guys were making it by Joe or after that there could be a potential sequel, or was this never on the cards that you remember?

16:58John RosengrantI think there was some talk of that at one point in time. There was some talk of a sequel. I don't know what ever happened to that, though. I think it was mentioned, but I don't know. There's a lot of movies that I've done that they've talked about sequels happening and they…

17:19Jawad MirOf course. Yeah

17:19John Rosengrant... They just, they just never do. You know, I don't... One that I thought for sure they were going to make a sequel to was Real Steel. The…

17:30Jawad MirOh, the Ben Stiller movie, right?

17:32John RosengrantIt's actually…

17:34Jawad MirIs it Ben Stiller?

17:34John RosengrantNo, Real Steel is, Hugh Jackman is in that one.

17:39Jawad MirOh, right. Yes. Yes, you're right, you're right.

17:42John RosengrantThe Ben Stiller one was Neighborhood Watch.

17:47Jawad MirOkay.

17:48John RosengrantOr The Watch, as it got retitled because political correctness

17:54Jawad MirOf course

17:54John Rosengrant... Got to them.

17:55Jawad MirOf course.

17:55John RosengrantAnd

17:56Jawad MirYeah, Real Steel was directed by Shawn Levy.

17:59John RosengrantYes, which has a connection there, 'cause I think Shawn, Levy was the producer of, The Watch, which Ben Stiller was in. And I think they know each other. Might have been a Night at the Museum too. I think Shawn might have done one of those. So I don't think your connection is that far off.

18:24Jawad MirRe… Real Steel, that was more recent, right? 11, 12 years ago?

18:28John Rosengrant20… 2010 I think that was. Yeah.

18:32Jawad MirHow was that compared to Small Soldiers, if there is any comparison whatsoever?

18:37John RosengrantNo comparison really. I mean, completely different, ideas. Big giant robots versus little, you know, 12-inch tall toys. Yeah, to… totally different. And I…

18:56Jawad MirWe, you can, you can talk about that a little bit if you like. I'd be more than happy…

18:59John RosengrantWhat, Real Steel?

19:00Jawad MirYeah, sure. Yeah.

19:01John RosengrantWell, I thought Real Steel was one of the greatest movies that no one saw, and I think they really screwed up the publicity on that. I think it's a, it's a sweet movie, it's a good movie, it's an interesting film. And that's why I kinda thought there would be a sequel to it, and there was, there was talk of it. But, Real Steel got nominated for an Oscar for Visual Effects. And, we all, we worked real hard on that. It was very well organized. Ron Ames was the effects producer on it, and Josh McLaggan, who was the first AD and a producer on it. And I know Josh. He, I go back to Predator 2 with Josh, but I did Avatar with him. So we were coming right off of Avatar, and it was one of the most well-organized movies that I'd ever worked on.

20:06John RosengrantAnd, was talking about visual effects dovetailing in perfectly with what we were doing. Everyone knew exactly what was happening on that movie. And I would say on Small Soldiers we did too. I never for once felt like, "I don't know how we're gonna do this." There was a few gray areas of what should be CG and we probably tried to do a little too much on that movie. But, no, I, Small Soldiers was well organized. I felt like I never felt like, "I don't know what I'm doing here," or, "What's going on?" And I never felt that way on Real Steel. Everything had a plan. And I think that those days, I sorta miss those days, you know, of, the Jurassic Parks and, you know, you went through everything shot by shot.

21:08John RosengrantSo once you got to the set you knew this is gonna be CG.

21:13Jawad MirWhat you're doing. Right.

21:13John RosengrantThis is, this is us, and this is how it's going to be done. And, you know, we did that on T2 as well. There was a big giant book of storyboards filled with all of, all of that. But I think it's a s… it's a smart way to go because you actually plan out what the sh… shot is going to be and how it's gonna be done. There's some movies that are going, you know, you just show up and director has not a clue as to how he's gonna shoot this, and he thinks he's just gonna shoot a plate. And it's like, well, you gotta know what's going in that plate. It's not just a green screen you're gonna film. You know, you gotta have something in there. We have to have some screen direction or camera movement as to what…

22:08Jawad MirYeah

22:08John Rosengrant... What it's gonna be. It's just not gonna magically appear. But, you know, in fairness they probably put, that's putting somebody at the helm of a, of a movie that was beyond their scope or not their wheelhouse. You know? A lot of effects things going on.

22:29Jawad MirYeah. I genuinely believe, and I mean, I'm not trying to belittle anyone, I genuinely believe as a director, you know, this idea of that you should just know directing, maybe it works for some people and that's fine. I feel that you need to know every aspect of production at least a little bit so you are able to articulate that to whoever you're working with in a proper way as opposed to, "I don't know how…"

22:58John RosengrantWell, that's how I was brought up. I mean, I went to the film school of James Cameron.

23:04Jawad MirYeah.

23:05John RosengrantAnd every, you know, starting on Terminator 1, Aliens, T2, Avatar, you know? I don't know. He does know everybody's position and he does know what he wants from every department. And that's just sorta how... You know, Steven Spielberg is like that. Or he, or he'll at least, he'll acquiesce to the production designer, but he's been fully involved as to what the outcome or the way it should be done. And anyway, those are the people that I cut my teeth, you know, on movies doing this stuff, and I just thought that's how it was supposed to be. So later on when you run into a guy that has not a clue as to what's going on and doesn't seem to care, it just feels like, "Well, why am I here?"

24:10John RosengrantYou know? What am I…

24:12Jawad MirYeah

24:12John Rosengrant... Am I doing? Yeah.

24:14Jawad MirWell, it's like running…

24:15John RosengrantIf you…

24:15Jawad MirYeah.

24:15John RosengrantIf you don't care, I'm, I was told I'm supposed to be working for you And anyway…

24:22Jawad MirYeah

24:22John Rosengrant... That's, that's how I always…

24:24Jawad MirWell…

24:24John Rosengrant... Envision

24:25Jawad Mir... Jeffrey Katz… Jeffrey Katzenberg said,.. I was putting together a sizzle for one of the projects that I'm developing, and there's a quote that I found and Jeffrey Katzenberg's quote is in there. He said, "If you don't believe what it is that you're working on is going to work, why do you think anybody else will?" Right? And that's pretty much a testament to what you're saying. It's just so important.

24:48John RosengrantYeah.

24:48Jawad MirEven if you don't have a clue what the hell you're doing, you have to make it look like that you…

24:52John RosengrantYeah

24:53Jawad Mir... Believe in this, right? Because otherwise they're following your lead.

24:57John RosengrantYeah. Well, I, there's famous things that I've worked on that, y… you know, was highly successful the first season, and then they wanna cut the budget every year afterwards with the caveat, "Well, we don't know how it's gonna do." Well, if you keep cutting the budget by 10% every season, you're, you're... This is gonna be a f… self-fulfilling prophecy in my opinion. Eventually it will suck because no one'll have enough money to do it the right way.

25:34Jawad MirYeah.

25:34John RosengrantAnd so it will fail.

25:36Jawad MirYeah.

25:36John RosengrantAnd no one will care. And then you can say, "See? I told you." And I can say back to you, "See? I told you."

25:46Jawad MirYeah, that's true.

25:47John RosengrantBut…

25:49Jawad MirJ… John, y… you mentioned most that, like you s… mentioned Small Soldiers and Real Steel are the projects where you know, it was something that was not necessarily easy, but you knew going in what it was and there was a lot of preparation, there was lots, lot org… lot of organization. I don't want you to name any names, or if you don't wanna name any film that's fine, but was there a particular project where things weren't as you expected or you didn't know what was going to happen, whether it was in the later part of your career or earlier part of your...?

26:18John RosengrantYeah, no, there's, there's, there's also always those kind of movies where you show up and you don't... Yeah, I don't wanna get into naming specifics because to be honest, I didn't walk in their shoes and I don't know what circumstance…

26:34Jawad MirFair enough

26:35John Rosengrant... They had to deal with or,.. But for me, I would just even say that to the crew. It's like, "Hey, I just got thrown into this and I want your help here." Or, "I don't know what to do here." Or, I don't know. There's just different ways people handle things and like I said, I don't exactly know what their s… real story is because I'm…

27:07Jawad MirYeah, of course

27:07John Rosengrant... Not them.

27:08Jawad MirYeah.

27:08John RosengrantSo give them the benefit of the doubt. At the end of the day it doesn't, really doesn't matter. You're being paid to do a job, do your job the best you can and with the information you're given and, you know, go from there. And the ones that go super smooth, well, those are... Count yourself lucky, you know? And for the ones that, are a little harder to birth, well, it's, it's a growing and learning experience, so.

27:44Jawad MirYeah.

27:45John RosengrantLook at it in a positive way there.

27:48Jawad MirWhat's your take on, immersive VFX? Like for example, I was talking to David Smith. He owns this company called Played Pros, so where they would actually, you know, go out in the city and for example, the movie like Joker 2 or I don't know if you've heard of a movie called Daddio, which is with Dakota Johnson and Sean Penn which takes place in a cab. So it's not like…

28:10Jawad Mir... LED screens, but it's basically they would shoot around the city all the footage and it would be put on a screen and it feels like they're actually in the environment when they're actually on a sound stage but they're still interacting with the visuals around them. What's your take on that technology? Just personally, I mean it's not about writer, director…

28:28John RosengrantI have never worked with it, so I… ... Don't know to be honest. You know, on The Mandalorian it was a big deal to do the screens.

28:39Jawad MirYeah.

28:39John RosengrantAnd to have all that and I thought it was really useful, and I could think of a million ways it could help, you know, productions. You know, if you're shooting something on a snowy mountaintop and instead of really going on a snowy mountaintop, you know, if you could have that, those screens and you can have enough of the set recreated but not have to spend the night out in the woods somewhere up on a mountaintop, it would be great. You know, send a crew up there and shoot it so it's believable. No, I th… I thought y… you know, I don't shy away from technology. I think if it can help you…

29:23Jawad MirYeah

29:23John Rosengrant... Embrace it and use it. So if this technique of what you're talking about with, the Sean Penn movie, who did you say? Dakota Johnson?

29:35Jawad MirYeah. It's called, Daddio. It's just literally majority of the film takes place in a cab where she's the passenger, he's the cab driver, and it's just talking about life, relationships, problems. It's actually a really good film. I highly recommend it. It's rare they make these kind of movies anymore, but

29:56John RosengrantYeah Two people talking in a room. Yeah.

30:00Jawad MirWell, no, just meaningful pe… you know, stories, right? It's just…

30:03John RosengrantYeah

30:03Jawad Mir... I miss that stuff. Like I just saw last night, I don't even know about this movie, we just found on Amazon Prime my wife and I, called Holdover. What's his name? The actor who was in the Lady in the Water. He's a very... Paul, God, what's his name?

30:21John RosengrantGiamatti?

30:23Jawad MirYeah. He plays a teacher and it's his…... Four or five students and him that get stuck at a school over Christmas holidays…

30:31John RosengrantYeah

30:31Jawad Mir... Because the parents were busy. What a great freaking movie. I mean

30:36John RosengrantYeah

30:36Jawad Mir... That's what I like to see.

30:36John RosengrantThat was Oscar nominated, that one…

30:38Jawad MirYeah

30:39John Rosengrant... Was, you know?

30:40Jawad MirI didn't even know about it. Like, I just totally... Have you seen it?

30:43John RosengrantYeah.

30:44Jawad MirAmazing movie.

30:44John RosengrantI liked it too. I… it's a quiet sort of movie, like you're talking about. It's not a big…

30:50Jawad MirYeah

30:50John Rosengrant... Bombastic, special effects-laden movie. It's just a story…

30:56Jawad MirYeah

30:56John Rosengrant... About these people that are all stuck together, who really don't wanna be together. Yeah.

31:04Jawad MirAnd they're all, and they all have a broken story, right? They all have problems they all have…

31:07John RosengrantThey all have a broken story. Yeah.

31:09Jawad MirAnd that's what brings them together. You know, kinda wrapping up with Small Soldiers, John, one last question. Again, when you finish production on a film, you move on to the next one, right? Whatever that may be. But I'm sure, you know, when the film comes out and you take a look at the final or somewhat of a close to a final version, w… do you remember how satisfied you were with everything that's

31:34John RosengrantI liked it. I thought it was a fun movie. I liked it a lot. And, I was disappointed it didn't find a bigger audience. But, you know, Galaxy Quest didn't either, and I thought that was a, an amazing movie. You know, I think, Small Soldiers, Galaxy Quest, those weren't stupid projects. Those were great projects, and well-written and put together. And I don't know what happens. Is it marketing or it just somehow just doesn't find its audience?

32:11Jawad MirYeah. I think it's marketing. I don't know about Small Soldiers, but I know Galaxy Quest was really badly marketed because I figured that movie out because I was a Star Trek fan. Like, I…

32:22John RosengrantYeah

32:23Jawad Mir... I could... You know, you pick it up right away. But people who don't know Star Trek…

32:28John RosengrantYeah

32:28Jawad Mir... They probably couldn't figure it out, right? And, did you work on Galaxy Quest with Dean Parisot?

32:33John RosengrantYeah. Well, I did, very little, to be honest.

32:37Jawad MirOkay. Okay.

32:38John RosengrantI don't know what I was doing at the same time. But, Shane, Mahan, one of business partners, he was the main guy on that. But I did do some work on…

32:50Jawad MirYeah

32:50John Rosengrant... Galaxy Quest, yeah. And I remember…

32:52Jawad MirYeah

32:53John Rosengrant... Reading that script going, "This is fantastic." Because, yes, I did grow up with Star Trek and…

32:59Jawad MirYeah

33:00John Rosengrant... And it w… it spoofed it in a great way, in a loving way.

33:05Jawad MirIn a great way, yeah.

33:06John RosengrantBut…

33:06Jawad MirIt wasn't like, you know, dumb comedy or anything. It was just…

33:09John RosengrantNo

33:10Jawad Mir... You know, for me, the biggest thing in that movie... I spoke to Dean Parisot very, like, about a year and a half ago. The, one of my favorite things in that movie was, which I never thought about when I was watching Star Trek, specifically Next Generation, you know, Sam, is it Sam Rockwell who plays…

33:26John RosengrantYeah

33:26Jawad Mir... The guy, right?

33:28John RosengrantYeah.

33:28Jawad MirYou know, when they sh… when they show his character the way he, "I'm gonna be the one who's gonna die," you, I recall like in every Star Trek episode there would be this one person who would get, you know, shot by a phaser because they…

33:40John RosengrantYeah

33:40Jawad Mir... Couldn't kill off the main characters.

33:42John RosengrantNo, exactly. No, it was true and, I mean, you had great villains and, the, I think the Spock c… character was fun, and, the,.. Yeah, it just, it paid great homage to it and

34:06Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

34:07John Rosengrant... Well done.

34:07Jawad MirIt certainly did. It came around the same time as the Trekkie, Trekkies documentary did. I don't know if you…

34:13John RosengrantNo, I didn't know that

34:14Jawad Mir... Have seen that.

34:15John RosengrantNo.

34:15Jawad MirYeah, so I was talking to the director of Trekkies and the fan character in Galaxy Quest was inspired by the Trekkies movies fan, like, you know, this…

34:27John RosengrantOh

34:27Jawad Mir... That's how they kind of got the idea from the fan's point of view and how he saves the day. But yeah, another great... If you're into Star Trek, watch Trekkies documentary. It's really good.

34:36John RosengrantOkay. I'll, I'll have to see that.

34:38Jawad MirIt's really fun.

34:39John RosengrantSpeaking of movies that I think had missed marketing, I think Real Steel also. You know, because the numbers on Saturdays and Sundays would go through the roof, so it was young kids going to see it, but I think it got marketed as a date night movie. And…

34:58Jawad MirReally?

35:00John RosengrantYeah. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I'm 10 guys removed from what happens, but I remember that the numbers would go through the roof on Saturdays and Sundays, so obviously…

35:14Jawad MirYeah

35:14John Rosengrant... The people going to see it were going at matinees, and it was kids. And when you watch that movie, it's a kids'... It's, it's, it should've been marketed to kids, not teenagers or 20-year-olds, you know. Anyway. Anyway, what do I know? I'm just the effects guy.

35:35Jawad MirBut being the effects guy, is that movie more fresh in your mind in terms of the work that you did?

35:42John RosengrantIt's fresh in my mind because, we were so immersed in that movie, and just coming off of Avatar, you know, utilized a lot of the same technology, and, I don't know, it's just really a well-oiled machine, that one. It was put together really well. I had a lot of fun working on that. And sometimes having a lot of fun on a movie doesn't equate to a good movie.

36:16Jawad MirYes. Yes.

36:17John RosengrantBut sometimes the ones that are, that I wouldn't say came easy. I mean, it was hard work. There was a lotta hard work involved, but w… it was, It was just well done. It was w… it came off really well. It was a pleasure to work on and, it was no surprises. But when I think back on Small Soldiers, I don't, I don't remember anything a… about that one that wasn't well put together and it was fun to do…

36:48Jawad MirYeah

36:48John Rosengrant... At the time. We had a lot to do on that movie, but…

36:53Jawad MirOh, yeah, it's evident. I mean, the whole movie is without you guys, it won't even work.

36:58John RosengrantYeah.

36:58Jawad MirRight? Like, it's like it just won't work. I mean, I think a lot of that movie of which, maybe moviegoers don't probably notice that much, but the fans certainly do, or people in the industry, you know, the CGI was great, but the animatronics is what made it work, right?

37:15John RosengrantOh.

37:15Jawad MirLike, the actual…

37:16John RosengrantThank you. Yeah

37:17Jawad Mir... It just, it gave it gave it so much life and it, people don't see that, but it's, you know, you feel it. You feel it, for sure.

37:27John RosengrantWell, I mean, we had a presence in every shot and, I think, I, and I still am a believer, even if it's something's gonna get replaced or... A… and I'm a believer in CGI, don't, don't get me wrong.

37:46Jawad MirYeah.

37:46John RosengrantBut I also feel like, I believe in having something there tangible because the actors…

37:55Jawad Mir100%

37:55John Rosengrant... Acting is reacting.

37:56Jawad MirYeah.

37:56John RosengrantSo if you see something for real that's there, you have a reaction to it, whether it's very subtle or if it's big, depends on what's going on with it. But I think it's helpful. I really do.

38:11Jawad MirYeah. No, it is because I, again, I don't really watch superhero movies, but I've seen some of the behind the scene stuff and it would be, like, two people standing in a room surrounded by green screen, and you could tell that the interaction that they have with their, you know, antagonists or enemies on the final is not there because in the production they were not there.

38:35Jawad MirYou know, it's just a bunch of green screen. So, but yeah, no, if you're really proud about Real Steel and if it's something that you're interested in talking about in detail, I would be more than happy to try to chat about it. I haven't even seen the film. I have gotta see it, of course, but…

38:48John RosengrantYeah

38:48Jawad Mir... If that's something you're up for.

38:49John RosengrantWell, you see it. Maybe in the future we can talk about it. I, yeah, I think it's a, it was a fun, it was a fun movie and it was a good one. But not to take away from, Small Soldiers. That was a…

39:04Jawad MirYes

39:04John Rosengrant... A fun... It makes me wanna go s… go see it now. My son was the perfect age, and my kids, when that movie came out, so he really loved Small Soldiers a lot.

39:17Jawad MirYeah. You know, I actually showed my kids Gremlins and I haven't showed them Small Soldiers, Joe Dante being the constant here.

39:25John RosengrantOkay.

39:25Jawad MirBut I'm gonna, I'm gonna show it to them because I, it's a really fun movie. You know, again, the point of view of an antagonist and protagonist, that's what Joe Di… like, does. He does…

39:36John RosengrantYeah

39:36Jawad Mir... Really well. But yeah, it's, you should watch it again. I'm gonna watch it with my kids again. It's gonna be... It's a great film. It's a great old gem.

39:44John RosengrantWell, my son is coming out to visit me at Christmas time. I think it'd be a fun one to put on and relive with him. What year did, Small Soldiers come out?

39:54Jawad MirI think it was in 1998. Let me just check.

39:58John Rosengrant'98.

40:04Jawad MirYeah, '98.

40:05John RosengrantSo '98, so my son would've been five going on six, so really magic age for him. Yeah, so…

40:16Jawad MirYeah, I don't think that movie was, for five and six-year-olds at that time.

40:20John RosengrantNo, probably not.

40:21Jawad MirYeah.

40:21John RosengrantThere's been a few movies like that y… you know, I sit down when my kids were small, I mean, now they're all grown up, but when they were small I'd sit down, "Yeah, let's watch this." And then be like, "Oh my God, I can't rem… I don't remember all this cursing. I don't remember..." T2 was the one that, I mean, comes…

40:43Jawad MirYeah

40:43John Rosengrant... To mind. It's like, Linda Hamilton's character when she's locked up, it's like, "Oh God, what have I done?"

40:51Jawad MirYeah.

40:52John Rosengrant"Here, let's fast-forward through this part," you know?

40:55Jawad MirYeah. But I will say this, I will bet you if Small Soldiers came out today, two, three-year-olds would be watching it because the standards of, you know…

41:04John RosengrantYeah

41:04Jawad Mir... What's good for kids and not has completely changed in the last 25, 26 years.

41:10John RosengrantIt is true, and some things they just don't get, which is okay too.

41:16Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Awesome.

41:18John RosengrantYeah.

41:18Jawad MirWell, great, man.

41:18John RosengrantAll right.

41:18Jawad MirThank you so much again for the chat as usual. I appreciate it. A very good merry Christmas to you and happy New Year and to you and your family.

41:26John RosengrantYeah. Same to you. Yeah.

41:28Jawad MirThank you, sir.

41:28John RosengrantAll right.

41:29Jawad MirTake care. Bye.