'Jurassic Park' & 'Jurassic World', Author, James Mottram

0:08Jawad MirHello, everyone. This is Jawad, your host of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast. Welcome back to another episode. Couple of things before we start the podcast. We have a new logo, which you probably have start seeing on the header of Spotify, Apple, as well as YouTube. You'll start seeing an introduction in the next week or two. We're working on the animation, as well as new set of new thumbs, and, bunch of other stuff. Today's episode is one of the episodes that we did way back in the beginning of the podcast, and for some reason, which I can't recall what it was, we took it offline, but I just wanna bring it back up. It was where we interviewed James Mottram, the author of Jurassic Park and Jurassic World: The Ultimate Visual History. You might not see the quality of the video and audio up to par. If there's somebody that you want to be a guest on our podcast, any name, any movie, any series from the past, present, or upcoming, drop us a comment below.

1:10Jawad MirAnd we're always looking for an extra hand to become part of this amazing community and help out. Without further do... Without further ado, here's my conversation with James Mottram. When Jurassic Park came out, so when Jurassic Park came out, I didn't get to see it in theaters, just like you.

1:25James MottramRight.

1:25Jawad MirBut I read, articles, I saw Entertainment Tonight, I saw so many things, and I became obsessed over it, and I waited for 16 months before it came out to VHS. And in that time, I became, like, a diehard Spielberg fan, and I knew I wanted to, you know, be a filmmaker with my life. So it's... And The Lost World, I wasn't too crazy about it, but the experience I had watching it was phenomenal, because there was a local movie theater that opened. They had, like, 25 screens, and it opened the day the movie opened. So they dedicated all the movie theaters to Jurassic, to The Lost World, and it was just, like, shoulder to shoulder.

2:03James MottramI would agree with that, and then that's why I said to you earlier, it sort of took me by surprise. 'Cause I mean, I'm a... Like I said, I've mentioned Indiana Jones. I'm also a huge Star Wars fan. Obviously, I grew up in that era. So you're aware of those fan bases.

2:15Jawad MirYeah.

2:15James MottramAnd if you think about it, Jurassic's really only had six movies. Star Wars has had multiple films. Okay, Indiana Jones hasn't.

2:22Jawad MirSure.

2:22James MottramBut, really, for a long time it was just the three movies, and of course, then there was this huge gap, u… until Jurassic World. Of course, they struggled to try and get a fourth movie made for a long time.

2:35Jawad MirYeah.

2:35James MottramA… and yet, a… a… and I'm not saying it was an underground fan base, it certainly wasn't, but, I guess they didn't have a lot to feed them over the, those intervening years. There were some comics, and there were some video games, and which, you know, as you probably know if you've seen the book, we go into a little bit.

2:55Jawad MirYeah.

2:55James MottramBut yeah. And it... But I think what was interesting with Jurassic World is that obviously, a lot of the people who took their kids, they were probably young when the first one came out. So it sort of... And in the end, it's pretty simple why the Jurassic films are so successful, apart from being well-made, of course.

3:13Jawad MirYeah.

3:13James MottramKids love dinosaurs.

3:15Jawad MirYeah.

3:15James MottramThere is absolutely n… and that's big kids as well, obviously.

3:19Jawad MirOf course.

3:19James MottramAnd it, you know, there's some, obviously there's something w… I spent a long time thinking about this and asking people about this. How much of it has gone into the book I can't really remember now. But it's really about the sort of primal, attraction of these creatures, of course, that lived on our planet so many, you know, millions of years ago. And they're, they're, they're fascinating to kids. And, you know, of course there's other dinosaur films out there, but there's nothing like these movies. I mean, obviously the first one just set the bar so high.

3:54Jawad MirRight.

3:54James MottramProbably to the detriment of the rest of the franchise. It was never gonna, it's never gonna beat... Even Star Wars was probably beaten by The Empire Strikes Back as a, you know, that's debatable of course.

4:04Jawad MirYeah.

4:04James MottramBut

4:05Jawad MirI think a lot of it had to do with the, novelty of, seeing dinosaurs the way they were shown, they were shown, and of course, the evolution of special effects. Like, that film pretty much changed Hollywood when it came, to effects. Going to your book, what, I mean, how does it work in terms of when you're approached by a publisher, or do you sh… show interest? Like, what's the process of that? And if you can remember.

4:34James MottramWell, this one, if I'm being, you know, sort of straight up, it was... It, I'd literally just finished the Tenet book, so we're talking about, March, April 2020. And of course, you probably know what happened then around the world.

4:48Jawad MirYes.

4:48James MottramThe pandemic happened. You know, certainly in the UK, but in many other places, cinemas shut. So my day-to-day job was suddenly sort of torpedoed, because there wasn't very, there was nothing coming out new, apart from on streaming platforms. So I had very little to write about. So I said to my editor, "Well, you know, now, if you've got any other ideas, now's the time." And he was like, "How do you feel about doing Jurassic?" And they, I think they must have already been in conversations with Universal and Amblin, because of course these books are officially licensed by…

5:24Jawad MirYeah

5:24James Mottram... The studios. And of course, I, you know, I jumped at it. It, a… and I sort of started straightaway. I mean, it was a very strange time for everyone, of course.

5:34Jawad MirOf course.

5:35James MottramAnd I was just sort of sitting at home. It was like a perfect time to do research. You know, I just... You could sit and read the Michael Crichton books. You could, you know, go back through the films. And of course, in terms of contacting people who were in those films, a lot of people were, well, not, you know, s… some were working in some capacity, but a lot of them were just at home not doing…

5:59Jawad MirYeah

5:59James Mottram... Very much.

6:00Jawad MirYeah.

6:00James MottramThey were sort of... So I'm not saying it was necessarily that easy to get them. You've always got hoops to go through…

6:07Jawad MirOf course

6:07James Mottram... Before you get to these people. But their schedules weren't quite as crazy as perhaps they might be. And it sort of started from there. So I was… You know, basically researching the Jurassic Park book and the Jurassic World book sort of simultaneously because I was just trying to reach out to people, you know, from both franchises at the same time. But the Park book took precedence because that had to come out first.

6:32Jawad MirSo they, so you were given the go-ahead for both books simultaneously?

6:37James MottramWell, truth be told, originally the, fr… say for example, the Die Hard book that I mentioned, that's one book that covers all five Die Hard movies. So the original plan was to cover all six movies in one book.

6:52Jawad MirSure.

6:52James MottramAnd then I believe, it's not fully been confirmed to me, but from what I was told, Colin Trevorrow suggested, "Well, why not split it into two books?" which logically makes perfect sense because he's obviously been, you know, in… intricately involved in the second, the more recent franchise. And obviously Spielberg was sort of, you know, or a huge part of the first franchise. So it made complete sense to split them up into two books. And to be honest, it would've been a giant book, or it would've been a book that the fans would not have been satisfied with, if we'd done just one, because you wouldn't have had room to cover the movies in the depth that they deserve.

7:35Jawad MirI agree 100%. And you know what? Even when I was going through, the Jurassic World book, because it's split into three parts just like the first one, I was, when I was going through it, I'm like, "Is it, should each film have its own book, not each series," right? I mean, because the... A… and I know this because I mean, you're a journalist and I make documentaries, feature documentaries for a living, and I know that you interview so many people, and there's so many different ways to tackle it, but to concise it all together, it's, it's the only, the person who's writing it or editing it knows that how much work goes through it. So I'm, I'm, I'm glad that you guys split it into two books. And the, I do feel that they're different series altogether because one…

8:20James MottramWell, that's the other thing. That's completely right. They, there's, there's, they do have different feels about them.

8:26Jawad MirYeah.

8:26James MottramAnd it just made, even the design of the two books, although they're obviously exactly the same size, and they have similar designs, I think the second one, they've got more of the kind of metallic blue-gray coloring through the book, which obviously reflects the f…

8:42Jawad MirBranding of the film

8:42James Mottram... Ex… exactly, the branding of the film.

8:44Jawad MirYeah.

8:44James MottramSo, yeah, it made complete sense to do that. And you're right. On some level, I've seen some fans online who've seen the books who were, you know, they wanted more, and, I totally don't blame them for that because…... They want every last Jurassic detail you can s… squeeze out. But there just isn't the room for that in these books. And I think you're right. Realistically, those books, you could easily do a book on each film…

9:13Jawad MirYeah

9:13James Mottram... Quite easily. I mean, the Dominion one, it's a different experience because, for example, I had to finish it before the book, be… before the movie, sorry, came out. So if you notice all the other films, you have a last couple of pages where I'm talking about the release and the box office and how it was received. Of course, I couldn't do that for Dominion because, I had to finish before, but just because of the publishing schedules are kind of crazy and needs to be done quite a way before the film came out.

9:45Jawad MirRight.

9:45James MottramAnd even now, it's coming out in October, we didn't hit that deadline because there were lots of different delays. The pandemic really sort of made things very difficult.

9:53Jawad MirYeah.

9:53James MottramBut, yeah, I would love to... There, you know, there were... I overwrote i… in both cases. Both books were longer, the manuscript I handed in. And of course, then you have the very painful process of wrangling with the editor about what gets cut, and he cuts some of your favorite bits, and you're, you're…

10:13Jawad MirRight

10:13James Mottram... Absolutely gutted. But in the end, his argument, and it's a very true, it's what we try and do with these books, is you're telling a story, i.e. The story of how these movies got made. And so you might have the best bit of trivia in the world, but if it doesn't really fit in the story, it goes.

10:35Jawad Mir100%, and I'm, that's why you have an editor, right? Because we as writers or filmmakers, we're so, we become so attached to these stories because we're so involved in them that it's hard to see bes… you know, past them. Going back to your, what we're talking about, the splitting of the book, what I really loved about the second book, which ties into the first book, I loved how it started off as a fan-based, you know, introduction, like Ian Bryce Howard, Kathleen Kennedy. So all, everybody who sort of talks about their character or the directors and everybody, there's a connection to the first three films. And I find this is... I haven't thoroughly gone through the first s… three books, the three films, but this is more of a fandom book to me because it kind of gives you that nostalgic, you know, point of view that, oh, you know, when we were making this 30 years ago, this is how it sort of set up, so that I really enjoyed it. My, one of my questions is, what was...

11:39Jawad MirYou know, you spoke to how many people? I'm imagining over 50, 60 people for each book. Let's talk about Jurassic World.

11:44James MottramProbably about, it's about 100 across both books. So yeah, you're right, about 50 each…

11:51Jawad MirYeah

11:51James Mottram... Roughly speaking.

11:53Jawad MirAnd most of the interviews, I'm assuming because it was during COVID, you did it over Zoom or something like Zoom?

11:59James MottramYeah, it was, it was, I think a lot of them were over the phone actually. It was a bit... It was some were Zoom, some were on the ph… on the phone. It was a little bit before Zoom became this kind of…

12:08Jawad MirYeah, that's true

12:09James Mottram... U… ubiquitous thing, but, yeah, I'm think we did do some on Zoom.

12:13Jawad MirAnd I'm assuming in writing these kind of books, COVID or no COVID, most of the time, if at all, it's over the phone just because everybody's schedule is so tight and busy, right?

12:22James MottramWell, and also, of course, I'm based in London, so, it's not that easy to, you know…

12:28Jawad MirYeah

12:28James Mottram... Jump on an airplane. And as much as I'd love to have some face time, with Mr. Spielberg, yeah, it was all had to be done on the phone. But, you know, that's fine. It works fine for these purposes, I think.

12:39Jawad MirSure.

12:39James MottramYou know, the difficult thing is getting through their people and getting them to agree. It's kind of a snowball effect, though. The sort of early question you get from sort of publicists is, "Who else is involved?" They want to know that they're putting their client up for something that's obviously official and, it... You know, 'cause they get asked to do these kind of interviews a lot, I think, especially about Jurassic, 'cause obviously it's so popular. And yeah, I mean, initially, it w… I wouldn't say it was a struggle, but y… you know, s… some interviews took a long time to set up. Because partly also another reason being they were filming Dominion at this time.

13:21Jawad MirThat's right.

13:21James MottramSo you had, you had to wait. Laura Dern, for example, her publicist was great, but it took a long time to get her because she was on Dominion, which is totally fine. You know, it's, you... I am not their priority when they're making the sixth Jurassic Park film…

13:36Jawad MirYeah

13:36James Mottram... Or Jurassic World film as it were.

13:39Jawad MirAnd who was the first person you interviewed?

13:42James MottramThat is a very good question. I think it was Dennis Muren, because we had... Well, I can pretty, I can tell you that very early on I spoke to Dennis Muren and Phil Tippett, because my editor had sort of worked with them before, so we had sort of personal contacts that we could sort of directly go to them. So they were very early in the process, which interest… was good. I mean, you have to start somewhere. And, Rick Carter I got quite early on. He was absolutely fantastic. He was so nice, and gave me so much detail. And it, strangely with the two Christopher Nolan books I did, in both cases they wanted me, sort of Nolan's, you know, team, let's say, wanted me to speak to Nathan Crowley, the production designer who worked on both films, first, because Nathan works with Nolan so intimately early on in the process. So production designers are always great to speak to early on, because they know so much about the process.

14:44James MottramSo yeah, R… Rick Carter was quite early on. But yeah, the special effects guys were, or the visual effects guys, were sort of, you know, pretty early in the process. But then that was sort of interesting, because I almost perhaps to my detriment relied on what those two said, Phil and Dennis, for a long time. And of course, they're hugely important in the evolution of Jurassic Park. But then you come to realize over time that there were so many other people. Like you said, it was groundbreaking special effects, but it wasn't just those two involved. There were so many others, and it's, it's, it's a peeling back of the layers as you gradually start to speak to other people. A… and you realize that there's m… m… usually more than one side to the story. I don't know if you've seen this, I think it's called Light & Magic. It's on, Disney+.

15:39Jawad MirOh.

15:39James MottramSo it's about…

15:40Jawad MirThe, I've heard of it. I haven't seen it yet. I've heard of it, yeah.

15:43James MottramWell, it's about obviously the evolution of ILM, and there is a chapter devoted to, you know, Jurassic, and it's got a lot of the same people in it that I interviewed. And I think in that case they do sort of tell different sides of the story…

15:56Jawad MirYeah

15:56James Mottram... Which is really interesting. And that's obviously what we tried to do in the book as well. Well, certainly the first one, because that's, that's where those effect… you know, that's where digital, you know, visual effects came into being. Well, they, you know, they had been around before, but not in the degree that you got…

16:13Jawad MirYeah

16:13James Mottram... In Jurassic Park. So yeah, they were my early ones. In terms of, the Jurassic World franchise, I can't remember who the first person I spoke to out of that was. I think Daniel Orlandi, who was the costume designer on Jurassic World, he was quite early on. Pat Crowley, who's the producer of all of those recent films, he was pretty early on. He was amazing. He was so helpful. You know, I mean, again, he was, you know, in England…

16:39Jawad MirYeah

16:39James Mottram... In the midst of making Dominion, while they were the first major movie back after COVID, and yet he, you know, he found time to speak. And, you know, so many people were so generous with their time.

16:52Jawad MirYou mentioned Jurassic Park. I mean, I guess we can sway away to Jurassic Park trilogy now. One thing with Jurassic World, or maybe this is my ignorance because I'm more attached to the Jurassic Park trilogy, you know, just growing up, as opposed to Jurassic World, there was, when, because that film was so groundbreaking, there were so many, there's a making of Jurassic Park book, that came out in the '90s. There are so many documentaries, so much stuff. And you were talking about different angle, right? So how do you take, and I was talking to, about this to Cassian, Gaines, who wrote the E.T. Book. Like, how do you take something that is, has so much stuff already out on it and give it a different spin?

17:34James MottramThat's a very good question. I should add before we s… before I answer that, I've never met Cassian, but he was very helpful via my editor in putting me in touch with Dean Cundey…

17:46Jawad MirOh, cool

17:46James Mottram... Who obviously shot Jurassic Park and, you know, he was part of his E.T. Book. So if you're listening, Cassian, thank you very much. Yeah, it was really hard, because you're right, there was a book on, as you say, a making of book on Jurassic Park, and a making of book on The Lost World by the same author.

18:06Jawad MirYeah.

18:06James MottramAnd that author worked for s… Cinefex, which is a sort of special effects driven magazine, and…

18:12Jawad MirI still have copies of those magazines.

18:15James MottramYeah. And I devoured those books, and the articles, they wrote, I think the name was Jody Duncan, if I remember rightly. Forgive me if I'm getting that wrong. But, Jody's articles and books were… I… incredibly useful. I tr… you know, I quoted from them within the Jurassic Park book. You'll see, you know, reference numbers to wherever I've, you know, quoted from those books. I mean, Jody had incredible access, you know, back in the day. And you're right, it is difficult to put a new twist on, the making of, particularly the making of Jurassic Park, which has obviously been covered extensively. And The Lost World, again, because of Jody's book, was covered extensively. I would say that's why coming back to when I sort of said to you, "Well, we'll talk about Jurassic Park III later," in a way, I had the most fun writing about Jurassic Park III because there was much less written about it. And, yeah, and it was also in a way the most troubled production of the three, so you always get the best stories.

19:24James MottramA… a… and, you know, and, you know, Joe Johnston, who obviously directed Jurassic Park III.

19:29Jawad MirYeah.

19:29James MottramAnother, fantastic, fantastically open and honest interviewee. We actually, strangely, you were asking about how I did it, interview-wise. That was all done via email, which is not necessarily…

19:45Jawad MirOh

19:45James Mottram... In my past experience a way I like to do interviews.

19:49Jawad MirYeah.

19:49James MottramYou can't really get the back and forth that you want.

19:52Jawad MirYeah.

19:52James MottramBut he gave some really good answers, and then was available for sort of follow-up questions, you know, whenever. So, he was incredibly helpful and was very open and honest about the Jurassic Park III experience. You know, and th… they, you know, it was a stressful time for him. Of course, they didn't really, they, the script kept changing and all of that stuff. But, so that was, that was where I was able to put a more of a personal spin on it, let's say, because there'd been much less written about it. But you're right. You don't wanna trot out the same anecdotes that you've read everywhere else. But that was difficult with Jurassic Park because it's been so extensively covered.

20:34Jawad MirRight. We'll talk about Jurassic Park III right after, this. I, Joe Johnston, I mean, obviously you probably have seen The Rocketeer and Honey, I Shrunk the Kids and, you know…

20:45James MottramYeah

20:45Jawad Mir... The great films that he did. And, I was gonna... Well, my, I just lost my train of thought. But before we go to Jurassic Park III, you spoke to Spielberg, of course.

20:57James MottramI did. I had, one chat with him. But it was very good.

21:04Jawad MirFor both of them?

21:04James MottramYeah, well, the, for the second book, we talked a little bit about Jurassic World, right at the end of my interview. But really, that's, that's Colin's franchise, if you know what I mean.

21:18Jawad MirYeah.

21:18James MottramSo, I d…

21:19Jawad MirYeah

21:19James Mottram... I would've obviously loved to have more of a chance to speak to him. You know, he was in the middle of, I think, finishing off West Side Story and starting the Fabelmans film that's coming out soon.

21:29Jawad MirYeah.

21:29James MottramA… you know, to be honest, I think originally I had, I was told I had half an hour, which is, you know, not a huge amount…

21:36Jawad MirRight

21:37James Mottram... Of time to cover so much ground.

21:39Jawad MirYeah.

21:39James MottramBut he gave a couple of answers. There was one where we were talking about, sort of early sort of digital effects, and he gave a really long answer, a really great, brilliant answer. And then he sort of stopped and said, "Oh, well, if I go over the half an hour, we'll just, we'll just carry on." You know, he wasn't i… in any way precious with his time.

22:02Jawad MirSweet.

22:02James MottramAnd at that point, I d… I'm thinking, "Well, how long can I push this interview?" so I just carried on as long as I could, without, you know, being too cheeky. But his memories, I m… I mean, like my first question was in the very opening of the Jurassic Park book, there's this sort of great encounter between a young Spielberg, who's, who's, who hasn't made a feature at this point, but he's just been hired by Universal. He's about to do a sort of TV pilot, I think.

22:29Jawad MirEven beyond that.

22:29James MottramAnd he's on the back... Yeah, he's on the backlot being, shown, or he's being asked by some Universal people to show a young Michael Crichton around the backlot. And what a, what a chance meeting that those guys have. So I asked him about this, and this is, bear in mind, this is now, I don't know, 50-odd years ago, more than 50 years ago. And of course, he has incredibly crystal clear memories of it and, was able to give me, you know, a great, a great anecdote. And he was like that throughout, really. Just had, you know, h… his brain operates on a much higher level than mine does, let's put it that way.

23:12Jawad MirYeah. A… and one thing I really love, I realize this now, I've realized in the last 10 years, so I used to run this website on DreamWorks and St… Steven Spielberg. It was very successful. I almost interviewed Spielberg on the set of War of the Worlds once. And I used to, like, crave for this, you know, when DVDs came out, the commentary tracks. I used to crave for a Spielberg film to have a commentary track because, like, it's almost like a university course, and it's never been there. And now I look at it and I see all these books coming out, right? The one that you've written, the one that Cassine has written, and I'm so glad that there was no DVD commentary track because the amount of... There's just something about the way the storytelling that you have done, that Cassine has done, other people do, it's just so fantastic that I don't think a commentary t… track can replace that. Plus, you have something, like, physically in your hand. So kudos to that, on that. I mean, it, truly, like you actually humanize all these actors/characters in such a way that you completely forget about the film and you start admiring how all that happened, which normally has been a norm in the making of documentaries or whatnot.

24:27Jawad MirSo, fantastic stuff. Jurassic Park III. What did you learn new about Jurassic Park III in terms of production problems it had and script rewrites? Anything that you wanna share.

24:39James MottramWell, that was really my favorite part of the whole, one of the whole parts of the process. There was a website I used a lot called Jurassic Outpost, which had, partly because, a lot of the scripts, were uploaded on that site. So it was an easy way to comb through all the scripts. Now, one of the things that these books that they like you to do, the same thing was done in the, in the Die Hard book, they like to see the evolution of, well, script to screen obviously, but in this case, from book to script, you know, to then another draft, to then another draft. So that was easy for... Well, I say easy, it was a lot of work. But, for Lost World and Jurassic Park, those scripts were online. So you could, you could trace that evolution. With Jurassic Park III, there were m… far less scripts available. There's,..

25:40James MottramAnd, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to know more, but it's, it's easier said than done. I mean, you know, you don't necessarily have the archives thrown open to you. And you know, that's even if the scripts are in Amblin's archives now. They may not be. But, you know, there was a lot of chatter online about how, what, speculating what the earlier versions of the Jurassic Park III script was. I mean, obviously in the end, they, the Sam Neill character, Alan Grant, is sort of hoodwinked into going to Isla Sorna, and, you know, to rescue this boy. But there was sort of talk about, oh, well, originally it was, it was gonna be set, on, you know, o… over a couple of different islands and things like that, or partly on the, on the sort of mainland. You know, sort of Costa Rica. And, but, you know, these scripts weren't online, and I don't know how many people have sort of read this stuff.

26:44James MottramAnd then, I won't say who, but somebody did send me a copy of an earlier draft. So I was like, "This is gold dust." as far as I know, fans have not seen this draft. And, so I was able to read it. And it, you know, it was, it was, I know it was genuine. And it, you know, if you read that chapter, it does detail one of the... You know, not all, you know, there were several drafts, so I didn't get a hold of the very early ones where there were sort of different crazy ideas that they'd come up with. But this was the one that was written kind of just before Alexander Payne and Jim Taylor came on board. They were the ones that were sort of rewriting sort of furiously a month before the movie was sort of going into actual, you know, production, into shooting. So this is a sort of the draft before that. And, you know, it is quite different. It's got some elements that you'll recognize. So I w… I was thrilled at getting a hold of that and being able to sort of detail that because, yeah, as far as I know, that's just not particularly widely known on the internet.

27:48James MottramBut, you know, Jurass… Jurassic fans are like, you know, Sherlock Holmes or something. They don't, they don't give up to find out, you know, things. There's probably, there's probably some guys out there who have read that script, but, certainly I don't think there's an uploaded version, online, which is, you know, perhaps how it should be.

28:08Jawad MirRight. What, with Jurassic Park III, it had its problems, a lot of them. But I mean, it had its moments, especially the birdcage scene. You know, I, to me, you know, you said one of the scenes in J… The Lost World was that whole glass-breaking scene. You know, it was very terrifying. And for Jurassic Park III, that scene, any time I try to remember Jurassic Park III, that scene comes to mind, that entire birdcage sequence and how…

28:35James MottramThat's a brilliant sequence.

28:36Jawad MirYeah.

28:36James MottramA brilliant sequence. I mean, I'd also add that the plane crash is…

28:40Jawad MirYes

28:40James Mottram... Brilliant as well. Just from a technical point of view, it's, it's brilliantly well made. No, I mean, Johnson is a fantastic filmmaker, and he knows how to pull out set pieces. And yeah, tho… those two set pieces are brilliant. The Spinosaurus itself, of course, is a, is a pretty cool dinosaur.

28:58Jawad MirYeah.

28:58James MottramNo, there's a lot going for Jurassic Park III. Their main problem of all problems were they didn't really have an ending, or the ending kinda kept changing and was…

29:08Jawad MirYeah

29:08James Mottram... Sort of being rewritten. And it just, the actual ending they've ended up with just isn't that satisfying, you know, to suddenly have this…

29:17Jawad MirYeah

29:17James Mottram... Army sweeping in on the beach. It's very convenient and doesn't really work.

29:24Jawad MirAnd I remember watching it in theaters, and that's exactly what I told myself. It was just, like, out of nowhere. You know, it seemed like they... To me, it seemed like they had a longer cut, and they'd, because of, you know, studio pressure or because of box office generation, they decided to chop it. But maybe, a… as you're saying, in the script it wasn't there either. It was just that's how it was, like, all of a sudden the army shows up.

29:45James MottramI mean, I think you see it in Hollywood productions all the time, where they go into production with a script that isn't really fully finished.

29:56Jawad MirYeah.

29:56James MottramAnd, you know, it, there's ob… I think in the case of Jurassic Park III, they were building elements. You know, they had to build, obviously, sets and things. So there were certain set... I mean, Alexander Payne and Jim Taylor, when they came on board, they were basically told, "Right, these scenes are staying because we've already built the sets." You know, the, well, the birdcage s… stuff, for example.

30:18Jawad MirYeah.

30:19James MottramOr the airplane crash, or the, you know, the Spinosaurus was being designed and built. So they had to build their story. You know, the sort of character relationships could change a little bit around it. But yeah, the ending was sort of never quite right. And they, you know, once you roll into production, you're too busy worrying about…... What you're shooting that day to think…

30:40Jawad MirYeah

30:40James Mottram... Further ahead and like, "Oh my God, we've still got an ending to kind of come up with." And yeah, it's a little, it's a bit of a shame. But, you know, at the same time, I still find it quite an enjoyable Jurassic in the sense, for the reasons we just said, that there are some great set pieces in it.

30:58Jawad MirYeah.

30:58James MottramAnd, you know, who doesn't love seeing Alan Grant come back?

31:02Jawad MirOf course. Of course. What did Joe Johnston reveal to you that was surprising, that went into the book as well that, you know, you said he was very upfront and very straightforward. Like, what was something that he spoke to you about that you were taken by and you didn't know before?

31:22James MottramYeah. I mean, I think really just his willingness to sort of be honest about the successes and failures of the, of, you know, of the, of the process of, you know, he's, he's very experienced, as you mentioned, The Rocketeer and Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. So it certainly wasn't his first film. He'd, he'd done Jumanji, of course, which was a big…

31:43Jawad MirOh, yes. He did Jumanji, too. Yes

31:44James Mottram... Visual effects, or, you know, movie of its time. So he certainly wasn't ex… inexperienced. But the, you know, he was sort of honest about what it's like to be on set when it's slightly slipping out of your hands, and you're, and you're chase, as I said earlier, you're chasing this sort of ending that isn't really working. And can you imagine how stressful that must be?

32:05Jawad MirOh, for sure.

32:07James MottramSo yeah, it was, that was the kinda main stuff. I think, you know, we talked about the Spinosaurus, he talked about his relationship with Spielberg. Obviously, he'd, he'd gone to Spielberg and said, "I think if you know, if you wanna make, or if you don't wanna make the sequel, i.e. The Lost World…"

32:26Jawad MirYeah

32:27James Mottram... "I'd be up for it." And then of course, Spielberg did make The Lost World, and, Johnston kind of made his own Lost World with Jumanji, in a strange way. And then, you know, not quite, but you know what I mean.

32:40Jawad MirYeah.

32:41James MottramA… and then, and then obviously Spielberg, you know, couldn't think of any... You know, he was the perfect choice for Jurassic Park III. And the, you know, they're very tight as filmmakers. Obviously, you know…

32:53Jawad MirYes

32:53James Mottram... Johnston was working on R… right back to sort of Raiders of the Lost Ark and, you know, they've got a long-standing relationship.

33:00Jawad MirYou said, and we were talking about Jurassic Park III ending, and I, even though I am a huge Spielberg fan, even when it came out I felt this way, I just felt the last act of Jur… The Lost World: Jurassic Park II w… didn't, didn't excite me. Because, to me it kinda became like, and I'm not trying to say that's what the intention was, but personally for me it became like King Kong. You know how you bring King Kong from the island to the city? And even that whole, the way that ending happened, it didn't, it to me it didn't please, personally. But d… was that something that were discussed with, between you and Spielberg? Like, did you have any reservations about the ending?

33:43James MottramI actually didn't mind the ending. I quite liked seeing, the T-Rex just stomping through, San Diego.

33:52Jawad MirIt's great.

33:52James MottramI mean, you've got the great moment with David Koepp, the screenwriter of Jurassic Park, running into…

33:58Jawad MirYeah

33:58James Mottram... The, well, it's the sort of bookstore, I think, and then, and just being savaged by the creature.

34:03Jawad MirYeah.

34:03James MottramI mean, you know, it's a strange, I can see why people don't like it. And of course, originally it didn't exist. There was

34:11Jawad MirYeah. That's right

34:11James Mottram... It was gonna be a much longer sequence on the island. And then I think the way Spielberg explained it to me was, "Well, I'd sort of decided not to do Jurassic Park III, but I really wanted to get, you know, I wanted to sort of…"

34:29Jawad MirYeah.

34:29James MottramWell, ultimately what Colin has done in sort of Dominion, and even Battle of Big Rock, the short that he did, where, you know, the, well, and obviously the end of, the second half of Fallen Kingdom, where, you know, they're on the mainland. And Spielberg wanted a bit of that mainland fun, so he sort of concertinaed it into this last act, and it was, you know, you can look at the merits and demerits of that…

34:54Jawad MirYeah

34:54James Mottram... Let's say.

34:55Jawad MirOf course.

34:56James MottramI, you know…

34:57Jawad MirI forgot even too

34:58James Mottram... I kind of enjoyed watching it, the T-Rex stomping down Main Street, bending the traffic lights, stoplights…

35:05Jawad MirYeah

35:05James Mottram... To South America. You know, drinking from the swimming pool, the dog. There's a lot, the bit with the boy in the house where the swimming pool is brilliant. Y… y… you know, not all of that sequence works, I will confess. But, yeah, I d… I quite enjoy, it was, like you say, very Kong King, very King Kong, very Godzilla. Perhaps a bit too much, but I still enjoyed it because we'd been on the island for…

35:36Jawad MirTrue

35:36James Mottram... A film and two thirds by that point. So I guess it was…

35:40Jawad MirTrue

35:40James Mottram... It was visually different, if nothing else.

35:42Jawad MirIt's funny you mention that. I had a opposite problem with the Fallen Kingdom, because the first act of Fallen Kingdom was on the island, and the rest of it was in the city. And I found that same theory, that the first film was on the island, you have the first act of the second film on the island, it's too long, let's go to the city. So it was like a complete reversal thing from my point of view. And I'm just strictly speaking as an audience member. I mean, everybody has difference opinions and, different preferences. But, going back to Jurassic Park III, what I really loved about Jurassic Park III, aside from the sequences, were its special effects. And I wonder, I mean, obviously Dennis Muren, Stan Winston, Phil Tippett were involved in the film, but Joe Johnston, had, I think he was involved in visual effects in his early part of career too, right?

36:36James MottramYeah.

36:36Jawad MirAnd I wonder, I wonder if, like did he talk to you about that too? Because the s… the effects for that, especially the raptors, were just spot on. Like, normally you see that in only…... In a Spielberg film. You don't see that even in a Spielberg-produced film. Did he talk to you about that at all, like the special effects, how much he was involved?

36:57James MottramYeah, I mean, I think he, yeah, he was intimately involved. You have to be, I think, as a director of those films.

37:03Jawad MirYeah

37:03James MottramBut you know, he was…

37:05Jawad MirBeing a visual effects person, right?

37:07James MottramYeah. But he, but yeah, but he was inheriting a team, you know, the ILM team, that by this point had been doing it for, well, in terms of Jurassic dinosaurs, they'd been doing it for sort of, well, seven or eight years. You know, they knew, they knew what they were doing, and they were always making advances. I mean, that Spinosaurus is just absolutely in… enormous. I mean, to have that as a sort of part animatronic was just in… insane, really.

37:33James MottramBut, yeah, I mean, I think he enjoys, he enjoys working with special effects, and he knew how to utilize them. I mean, as I say, we mentioned the plane crash. I mean, you know, it's…

37:43Jawad MirYeah

37:43James Mottram... Different to dinosaurs, but, that, you know, that brilliantly done with sort of models and things. And, yeah, he just, he just knows how to utilize special effects. He knows how to get every inch of what he wants.

37:58Jawad MirHave you seen The Rocketeer?

38:00James MottramYeah, funny enough, I hadn't seen it until I was writing these books. So I did sit down and watch it at some point during, I th… I was still writing, I think, the first one.

38:11Jawad MirRight

38:11James MottramBut I really enjoyed it, actually. I thought it was very good.

38:13Jawad MirWell, it was a great film, the premise, everything, but the effects, you were talking about early '90s, you know, you see this guy with the rocket pack flying, and it looks pretty good even for today's time, right? It looks pretty good.

38:27Jawad MirAnd I, and I think that still goes to testament to Joe Johnston, obviously his visual effects team. But if you look at Jumanji, if you look at Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, if you look at, Rocketeer, I do f… obviously there's a team involved, but I think his heart and soul being a visual effects person in the past also transitions and, you know, also brings that into the, into his storytelling. Which of the films did you have the most fun writing about? Aside from Jurassic Park III.

38:55James MottramWell, that, yeah.

38:55Jawad MirAside from Jurassic Park III.

38:55James MottramApart from Jurassic Park III. Okay. Okay, that's a good question. Well, I suppose, hm, maybe I'd say Dominion because it was an unknown quantity for people. So I'm, I'm sitting there going, you know, like with all the other mo… with all the other five films, there are, like we were saying, books, articles, reviews.

39:21Jawad MirYeah.

39:21James MottramSo there's a lot to draw on and there's some stuff out there that's, you know, incorrect, you know, particularly on the internet. And

39:28Jawad MirOf course

39:29James Mottram... You know, there was a lot of rumors and things of, you know, scenes in Fallen Kingdom that didn't, that didn't make it, that supposedly exist or got rescripted and things like that. But, you know, it was all very difficult to... You know, you had to sort of put your detective hat on and try and speak to people and say, "Well, look, do, is this true? I've read this on the internet that this scene existed." And they're like, "No, that doesn't exist." but Dominion was, you know, you had sort of more free reign in a way because, well, like I say, there was nothing out there to really base it on apart from maybe a, you know, there was a couple of articles from Empire, the British film magazine.

40:09Jawad MirYeah.

40:09James MottramThey'd had access to Colin.

40:11Jawad MirYeah.

40:11James MottramSo like when the prologue got released, the dinosaur, the 65 million years ago prologue, Empire interviewed Colin. So I was able to look at that. That was quite helpful. But other than that, I was kind of on my own, and it was like, "This is quite interesting." obviously I ho… you know, you kinda go, "God, I hope I haven't got that wrong." you know, you, people from the franchise looked over the book.

40:36Jawad MirYeah.

40:36James MottramSo you know to, you know, to sort of obviously make sure it's accurate. But yeah, you know, you keep your fingers crossed that you're... But even then if you're, you know, even if you're looking at oth… other people's articles, there's no guarantee they're accurate either. That's the sort of thing you learn in journalism. Mistakes get made and make it into print, but, and then they become gospel. But, yeah, Domin… yeah, Dominion was fascinating. But, you know, also because the film was changing, you know, it was obviously now there is this extended edition…

41:03Jawad MirYeah

41:03James Mottram... Which really I suppose you could say was the original edition, but then bits got cut out or, you know, they just, you know, they wanted to have a slightly shorter version…

41:12Jawad MirYeah

41:12James Mottram... For the theatrical release, which makes sense…

41:14Jawad MirOf course

41:14James Mottram... Financially, and ultimately worked for them. And yeah, now there's this sort of extended cut. So I was sort of hearing, you know, one, well, I, you know, I knew about the prologue obviously 'cause it was online, and then you'd, you'd sort of talk to people about scenes and suddenly they'd go, "Oh yeah, that's not in the film anymore." And you're like, "What?" You know? This is before it became public knowledge. So that was quite exciting because you were learning things before it was common news.

41:45Jawad MirRight. Right. W… not to cause any, genuinely speaking, I'm not trying to cause any controversy, but you know, when you're making a film, when you're writing a book, there's always couple of episodes or maybe even more where, you know, things kinda get annoying in the sense that it's not working out the way it is because schedules or because maybe just like you're so much deeply involved into it that you're not able to get a bigger pic… you know, the, a bigger perspective at things. Do you remember anything that you were going through, more of like a personal thing that, you know, that you're like, whether whichever film, that it was like, "How the hell, what the hell am I doing?" Like, you know, self-doubt, I guess.

42:29James MottramYeah, absolutely. I can definitely answer that. And, so let's say you were asking sort of the schedule of how I interviewed people. When I got Spielberg, who obviously was crucial particularly to covering the first two movies…

42:44Jawad MirSure

42:44James Mottram... That was around November 2020 if I remember correctly. So once you'd done him… Then, of course, you were able to sort of really get going with the writing. And, I remember listening to Cassim on your ET interview with him, and he talked about the number of drafts. And, yeah, I sympathized with him when he, when he answered that question. So, you know, you do your first draft with Spielberg sort of included, and then it goes to the editor, and then it comes back because it's not really working. And then, you know, over that Christmas period that followed, where I was by that point, I don't know, into the second or third rewrite, that's when you start tearing your hair out that it's not working, and you're not really sure why. Because you know, that old expression, "You can't see the wood for the trees," and it's, you're lost inside it at that point.

43:42Jawad MirYeah.

43:42James MottramBut then I had a sort of breakthrough, which comes back to your earlier question about who I first spoke to, i.e., Dennis Muren and Phil Tippett, who are obviously huge in the evolution of the visual effects for the film and the sort of, you know, physical effects. But then I really started speaking to some of the other guys that worked with Dennis, Mark Dippé, for example, Steve "Spaz" Williams.

44:15Jawad MirGreat.

44:15James MottramAnd these guys were absolutely crucial in terms of the development of the sort of digital version of the dinosaurs, and, I really needed to speak to them. But, y… you know, no one really gives you a list and saying, "Right, these are the people you need to speak to." You just sort of piece it together yourself, and it ultimately becomes obvious who you need to speak to.

44:38Jawad MirYeah.

44:38James MottramBut until you've done that, then... And then the manuscript changed once I'd spoken to those guys and was able to get in their side of the story, for that first chapter, because that first chapter's obviously the biggest. It's the most important because it's that groundbreaking movie. And then things started to click after that, but that was a, that was a l… that was a, that was a tough Christmas, I can tell you that much.

45:02Jawad MirHow involved... Well, you know, when Spielberg or Joe Johnson or Colin or anybody else, when they make a film, you know, you screen it, you get feedback, "Okay, cut this, cut that." I mean, there are some, there, historically, there have been some stories, on films like, The Time Machine, I don't know if you've seen that, by, with Guy Pearce. It was, like, a DreamWorks film, and it got cut down by almost 30 minutes, and it didn't really work out. Were there any kind of things that the studio said in terms of the draft, "Okay, this is not something that we should have in the book ever," or they couldn't, they didn't care?

45:40James MottramYeah, no, they have what's called, what's known as the franchise, which obviously is referring to Jurassic.

45:47Jawad MirRight.

45:47James MottramAnd I don't really know who is on that, well, committee, let's call it, you know, who or whatever it is, posse of people.

45:55Jawad MirRight.

45:55James MottramI would assume Colin Trevorrow. You know, I think what you have to understand, first of all, is it's pretty much the jewel in Universal's crown, Jurassic, the Jurassic series.

46:07Jawad MirRight.

46:08James MottramAnd when I was doing these books, they were making the sixth one, so of course they're gonna be very... They were less concerned about Jurassic Park: Lost World, Jurassic Park 3, because those movies are out and…

46:22Jawad MirRight

46:22James Mottram... You know, you know, obviously well-loved and everything, but they're of a certain time, whereas the new franchise was still very much ongoing, so they were more concerned about certain things that were going into, you know, that we wanted, you know, certain people we wanted to speak to…

46:40Jawad MirRight

46:40James Mottram... That they weren't that keen on, so we didn't speak to them. And i… there wasn't really that much, that they were like, "No, you can't go anywhere near this." There were a couple of topics, but, which I probably won't mention for diplomatic reasons, but

46:57Jawad MirI don't need to know either, so it's okay.

46:59James MottramYeah. But, yeah, but they weren't... And I have to say, when they, when they looked over the manuscripts for both books, you know, there were, there were small suggestions, but it wasn't anything bad. It wasn't anything like, "Oh my God, they're, they're cutting that out." you know, it, you, there might be the odd line where you're a bit puzzled, but they were pretty reasonable, I thought. You know, it wasn't a…

47:26Jawad MirSure

47:26James Mottram... It was far more strenuous getting the book into a shape that my editor felt would be the right shape to send it to them, and that's, that was his job, because he's worked with studios a lot, and he knows that you need to hand it over in a certain state, not just well-written…

47:45Jawad MirYeah

47:45James Mottram... But it, with a certain, you know, tone and approach that they will be happy with. So I think he, you know, he did his job incredibly well, and that's why we went through so many drafts, to get it into a good state that the studios would be, or the franchise would be happy with. And yes, they're gonna have bits and pieces that they suggest, you know, get changed, but it wasn't anything radical, that's for sure.

48:12Jawad MirI'm glad you mentioned this about, having an editor in the same capacity. Like, you know, when... And I learned this the hard way, too, when I made my first film. You submit it to festivals or you s… you know, take it to different production companies. And I remember the first time I did that, I didn't even have it color corrected, audio mixed, and I just sent it. And it was, it was a, it was a good film, but because they don't have time, you know, they just wanna have it just once. And I, it's a great piece of advice, that I wish that writers, including myself, now, obviously now I know, that you can't just rush things and send it to them, because you might just get one shot, and if it's not, you know, really done properly, then… That's it. It's a big no-no. But I mean, obviously you were commissioned, but nevertheless, still makes an impact.

48:59James MottramWell, it's also difficult if you're a journalist and you're used to doing things quickly, and you might get an article sent back to you, and there might be some minor corrections that you put through, but, you know, the world of journalism is a lot faster than the world of publishing. So you're used to sort of writing quickly, doing the best you can obviously, but…

49:19Jawad MirYeah

49:19James Mottram... It's, it's a different thing. You're, you're telling a very, it's a very different type of writing to tell one of these kind of long form books.

49:28Jawad MirFor sure.

49:28James MottramI remember when I did the Dunkirk book, and I handed my first draft in and I was quite happy with myself, quite pleased, and then the editor said, "Well, I'll, I'll send it back, you know, with corrections or suggestions," whatever the word he was, he used. And I was thinking to myself, "Well, of course there were. He will hardly, there won't be anything." And how wrong I was. But

49:50Jawad MirYeah

49:51James Mottram... You know, you look at it, you... It's tunnel vision when you're doing it yourself. You know, you think what you…

49:58Jawad Mir100%, yeah

49:58James Mottram... Were writing. And also, I mean, one of the real learning curves on these books, on all of them, is writing about visual effects and special effects, trying to explain them to the reader, to the layman, you know, when realistically, I'm a layman too. You know, I'm, I don't have a huge background in special effects. So you're talking to these absolute geniuses, and they will talk to you on their level, you know, and it's up to you to try and break that down and, you know, and convey it to the reader so it's understandable. It's like, okay, so how did you... Well, you know, the, yeah, try, how did they sort of do the, I don't know, the skin for the T-Rex or something? And they'll tell you complicated, you know, processes that they went through. And yeah, you just have to try and convey that in a sort of reader-friendly way.

50:48James MottramAnd that's, that's, that's a lot of the stuff that gets rewritten and rewritten, is just to try and make it reader-friendly.

50:55Jawad MirAnd I'm glad you talked about tunnel vision, and I do think we all, fall into that trap where, oh, you know, I did a great job, how bad can it be? And then you get notes and you're like, "Oh, crap," you know, "I need to get out of that tunnel vision." after you interviewed Spielberg, did it become... I know you had like studio, obviously, you know, licensing the book, and you had a publisher. Did it become easier to get other people, quicker? Like, you know…

51:23James MottramYeah

51:26Jawad Mir... Did you have to…

51:26James MottramWell, I think what the big help was Universal gave us a letter which we were able to send to publicists and agents and what have you, and that letter sort of said, "This is an official, you know, Universal and Amblin approved project. We'd love you to be a part of it if you, if you like. You know, don't, you know, don't feel obliged, but we'd, we'd love you to be a part of it." And there were only a handful of people that didn't either respond or they were too busy. You know, I mentioned there's sort of 100 people. There were a few I just couldn't get hold of, maybe because, for example, you know, you would start by going on the IMDb Pro and looking up people's sort of…

52:09Jawad MirYeah

52:10James Mottram... Agent and publicist details. And, like, I would've loved to have spoken to, BD Wong, who plays Dr. Henry Wu. I tried, I tried getting him on Instagram. I tried, you know, but he probably gets like a million people, you know, contacting him on Instagram all the time.

52:31Jawad MirSure.

52:31James MottramI got no response from his team, which again, it could be outdated details, you just don't know. And that was a shame, 'cause I, he would've been great because he's such a, he's such a presence through the films. But, yeah, it wasn't to be. But then, and I know, I know Cassim mentioned this in his E.T. Book, you know, you do... Y… there's a, there's a lot of material out there already. You know, there were some BD Wong interviews on… online, so you just end up quoting from those. That's not as satisfactory, obviously, as…

53:05Jawad MirYeah

53:05James Mottram... Speaking to him yourself. But you have to accept, given the time limits, you're not gonna get everybody. But of course, when you've got Spielberg on board and Colin Trevorrow, it makes life a lot easier. Like, as an example, Bryce Dallas Howard, who did her interview while she was shooting Dominion, I mean obviously she was, had a day off or an afternoon off when she did it, but w… was so good. I literally remember saying to her at the end, "Well, you've just made this book 10% better, basically, by that interview." A… and you know, she just gave so much. As you mentioned, she did one of the introductions. I mean, she's heavily invested in that franchise. I mean, you may have noticed when Dominion was coming out, she probably more than any other actor on it was doing so much publicity, I think 'cause she just loves those movies and she loves the fan base.

54:02Jawad MirWell, it was in the forward of the book where she was, you know, I think she's kind of around our age, maybe younger. Where…

54:10James MottramShe looked definitely younger than me.

54:12Jawad MirYeah, definitely younger. I should say that. Definitely younger than us. But, you know, that, when you grow up with a film like that, like when you grow up with E.T., it just becomes your world. I mean, that's, that's, that's how she was introduced. So, and I, when I read that, the forward by her, I could, I could feel her love for these films, because you can just tell. You know, when somebody's talking about something and you feel passionate about it's pretty obvious. And that was gonna be my next question, and I guess you probably an… already answered it. Who was, without anybody making an exception, who was the most fun to talk to? And…

54:50James MottramOoh, good. That's a very good question. Well, I'm…

54:54Jawad MirAnd you can de… you can define fun in any way you want.

54:57James MottramYeah, no, absolutely. Well, the one interview, and Cassim mentioned this too, and as soon as he mentioned it, I was like, "Yep, I agree with you on that one." We both got to speak to John Williams, and I… It was one of the shortest interviews I did. It was, it was quite, it was quite interesting because, you know, John is a legend.

55:18Jawad MirOf course.

55:19James MottramI will undoubtedly never get the chance to speak to him again, I would imagine. And, you're just in the presence of greatness, let's say. I mean, Spielberg I had interviewed a few times before for other, you know, just on sort of f… for press junkets and things. I mean, the War Horse and The Post, I'd spoken to him for.

55:40Jawad MirRight.

55:41James MottramSo, and I remember being very nervous, well, not so much for War Horse, but The BFG in Cannes, when he had that in Cannes.

55:48Jawad MirYeah.

55:48James MottramI remember I had a sort of two-on-one with him and the young girl who was in The BFG, and I remember being strangely nervous, before that, which is odd, because I do this kind of thing all the time, so you don't normally get that nervous, but, you know. And he, of course, is, was lovely. But, so I guess having done him already, I was less... I was more nervous just that went right, you know, that I got the material I needed. But John Williams, it was just like, well, this is, this is a man whose music you've heard your entire life. And also, I kind of get excited about, speaking to musicians anyway, because it's not something I tend to do that often. So he was great. He couldn't remember very much about The Lost World score, which was quite amusing. Y… you know, he'd re… he'd re-listened to the Jurassic score quite recently, or when recently when I spoke to him, because sort of him and Spielberg had kind of gone back over Jurassic, for a technical reason.

56:50James MottramSo that was relatively fresh, and of course, it's, that's gotta be one of his top three scores, right? Jurassic Park.

56:56Jawad MirYeah. Jurassic Park, E.T., Star Wars. I mean, there's more, but yeah.

57:02James MottramYeah, there's probably, well, it's, it's pretty mean to try and fit them all into three.

57:06Jawad MirHome Alone.

57:07James MottramHome Alone, you know.

57:09Jawad MirHome Alone. One of his best. One of his best.

57:10James MottramSo he was great. Wow. Fun. I loved Dean Cundey, actually. He was great. I never got to speak to Janusz Kaminski, who obviously…

57:21Jawad MirOh

57:21James Mottram... Shot The Lost World. That would've been amazing.

57:24Jawad MirThat would've been amazing.

57:25James MottramAgain, a difficult one to get a hold of. Probably working, I would imagine. But Dean was great. All the cinematographers were brilliant. John Schwartzman, who shot Jurassic World and Dominion, I had a long time with him. I actually went back to write a piece for this magazine called British Cinematographer, which I'd never written for before, where I said to the editor, "You know, I spoke to John for Dominion. I can probably get him again." so I did another interview with him for just sort of Dominion-focused, and he, yeah, he's wonderful. I mean, he's, you know, he worked with Michael Bay on things like Pearl Harbor.

58:05Jawad MirYeah.

58:05James MottramAnd hugely experienced, cinematographer. Done a, does a lot for, John Lee Hancock as well. So yeah, he was brilliant. I mean, he's like a old school cinematographer.

58:18Jawad MirBrilliant.

58:18James MottramI mean, he's just right at the top of his game. So he was fun. As I mentioned earlier, Rick Carter was great.

58:26Jawad MirGreat

58:26James Mottram... Such a nice guy. So yeah, there were a lot. There were a lot. I mean, the acts, I'm trying to think of some actors that were... Well, Laura Dern is just a brilliant interview. Sam Neill was l… I mean, all the main cast, were great. They all gave their time. You know, and that, I was quite pleased that I managed to get... Well, let, if you look at the Dominion cast where they're all reassembled, let's say…

58:52Jawad MirYeah

58:52James Mottram... I got all of those main ones, you know, Chris Pratt, Bryce, as I mentioned, the original three. So you know, they were all... A… again, it's, it wasn't down to me. It was down to the franchise and the fact that they all love it. It's been a huge part of their lives.

59:11Jawad Mir100%. 100%. And when, in any book that you write, but specifically let's say the Jurassic Park books, the Jurassic World book, when it's done and dusted, and when you've given it to the publisher, right? Like, it's approved, everything is good, the process of getting the visuals, like the cover, the layout and all that, does that start when you are almost done writing the book, or is it after? And how much involvement do you have in it, or do you even get to see any of that?

59:46James MottramI have f… limited involvement, I would say. I write the captions, so, those captions were all mine, I mean, again, in collaboration with the editor.

59:59Jawad MirSure.

59:59James MottramBut it's really him that's, tasked with sort of assembling the visuals, you know, w… with the designer obviously working out the cover. So a… and it, you know, and that's a, it's a slow process to go through the archives, and get what you can get. You know, sometimes we went to people like, John Bell, for example, who, you know, one of the art directors who did a lot of work. He, they, you know, all these guys have got their own personal archives, and we were able to sort of ask them…

1:00:32Jawad MirRight

1:00:33James Mottram... For stuff. Dave Lowery, another one that sort did a lot of the storyboards. And they're, they're often the best things, you know. Of course, you want to see some nice glossy stills from the movie in there, especially if they're ones you've not seen, you know. I mean, for example…

1:00:51Jawad MirYeah

1:00:51James Mottram... For Dominion, that, I think it was one of the first pictures that was released of Chris Pratt on the motorbike when he's being chased…

1:00:57Jawad MirYep

1:00:57James Mottram... By the raptors in Malta.

1:01:00Jawad MirThat's a great image.

1:01:00James MottramI really like that. It's a cool image.

1:01:01Jawad MirYeah.

1:01:01James MottramBut it's been everywhere. I mean, that image was in all the magazines and newspapers, because it was kind of the first one released. So the idea is really to find stuff... That's different. You know, even if it's an artist's rendering of that image, let's say, of the motorbike chase or something. But yeah, I didn't have a huge amount to do unless it was hooking up my editor with certain people, who had artwork themselves. I mean, the costume designers, that kind of thing.

1:01:31Jawad MirI can imagine when you're probably doing your first book, not these ones, but first book, not being involved in that process intensively is probably painful because, you know, you've written this thing and that's the way it is, but you want to be involved. But by now, is it like a blessing that once you're done with the writing you prefer to be surprised, or?

1:01:54James MottramWell, there's a, there's, definitely the fun bit is when you get the layout through. So your text has been added, has been designed and added, and then all the photos that... Because obviously the editor has to read the text and illustrate each page with suitable images. You might have some wonderful images, but if they don't relate to what I've got on, in the text, then they might be a bit redundant. I mean, you'll probably end up, if they're, if they're that amazing, they'll probably end up somewhere. But…

1:02:26Jawad MirYeah

1:02:26James Mottram... You know, e… each illustration, each photo, each drawing, each piece of concept art, it has to relate to what's on the page. So the fun bit is getting through images for, I mean, certainly for the case of Dunkirk and Tenet, where, you know, no one had really seen much of those films apart from maybe one trailer. So suddenly a… all this stuff that I've been hearing about, from various people where they're describing, like the turnstiles that are in Tenet, those sort of, sort of machines that send people back in time.

1:03:02Jawad MirYeah.

1:03:02James MottramI'd sort of visualized them in my head, but had no real idea what they looked like until I saw the layout and could see, "Oh, right. That's what they look like." And that actually means you could then slightly change bits of text because you could sort of just, you know, you just think, "Ah, right. That's what it looks like," and it just, it clarified things in your head. So in the case of Jurassic, of course, I'd seen virtually nothing of Dominion visually speaking, apart from obviously that prologue. So when you're suddenly able to... I'd had the script, as I mentioned, but when you're suddenly able to sort of put things in context and go, "Oh my God, that's what it looks like." I remember, this is the strange thing about doing these books, when I finally saw Dominion only really about three days before it came out, just at a, at a, the main press screening in London, I found myself, obviously I knew the story, so that was strange i… in terms of the film experience. I knew what was coming around each corner, let's say.

1:04:03James MottramI still enjoyed the sort of rattling pace that it had. But I found myself looking at the strangest things. So for example, when they're in the Hyperloop thing, which is that sort of underground shuttle that

1:04:18Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

1:04:18James Mottram... Is in, the Biosyn, grounds, and it's sort of underneath the earth, so it links all these, research stations. So it's this sort of like a metro station kind of thing that they're in. So I think it's Sam Neill, it's, and Laura Dern, and the young girl, Isabella, Sermon. They're, they're all, sitting in this pod thing, and it's supposed to be simulating kind of movement. You know, it's shuffling them from one part to the other, and I found myself r… look… I should've been concentrating on what they were saying, because obviously that's the scene. But John Schwartzman told me how they simulated the idea of movement by just having kind of pulsating lights go on, flick on and off, so it looks like it's a tube, a little metro train that's moving past, you know, and you see the flashing lights and everything. But of course they were sort of still, but it was, they were just, you know…

1:05:18Jawad MirYeah

1:05:18James Mottram... It was a trick of the eye. It was a bit of movie magic, basically. So I found myself looking at strange things like that…... But that's, that's the nature of w… when you've got so deep into something that you're just looking at really bizarre corners of the screen.

1:05:31Jawad MirThat's, that's kind of like the story of Henry Thomas that Cassian and I talked about. Do you know about that, the ET story?

1:05:38James MottramRemind me.

1:05:39Jawad MirWhen ET had its premiere, I don't know if it was premiere, but it was the first time showing in Arizona, and when the film was over, Henry Thomas was there with Drew Barrymore, Spielberg, and Henry Thomas came to Spielberg and he said, "You ruined the movie for me." Because he kept hearing while he was watching the movie, "Cut. Okay, Henry, do it that way. Do it that way." Because he lived that on-set experience so much that he didn't enjoy the film as an audience member at all. So it's kind of similar to what you're saying, right? That you ruined that for yourself.

1:06:10James MottramYeah, it's funny, actually. I've g… I just got hold of the extended edition of Jurassic World Dominion, and, I'm going to sit and watch it in the next couple of days actually, 'cause I just, I want to enjoy it now away from, y… you know…

1:06:28Jawad MirYeah

1:06:29James Mottram... Or e… even then, I mean, I can't exactly remember when I finished the book. I think it was around April. And, so, I, you know, and then had a couple of months and then the movie was actually coming out, and I did do some press interviews for the movie, which was a bit strange. It was like, "Oh, yeah. Right. I know exactly what this film's about." but, yeah. So it was odd to then come back to it a… as a, with a sort of journalist head on.

1:07:00Jawad MirYeah

1:07:00James Mottram... And then you're like I said, it got these sort of really nasty reviews, certainly in the UK. I don't know about elsewhere, but the reviews weren't great, and I was, I was kind of like, "What? Were we watching the same film?" You know, th… th… this film is absolutely not as bad as you're saying.

1:07:17Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

1:07:17James MottramAnd, So now I kinda wanna watch it away from all of that and just assess it, you know, on its own. Obviously the full version that Colin intended as well. But yeah, it's a, it's a strange thing when you've been through that process and then you finally see the film. It's an odd experience. I had the same thing with Dunkirk and Tenet. It's, you know so much about something before the world's media…

1:07:40James Mottram... Have seen it, and it's, it's a very strange feeling.

1:07:44Jawad MirYou will, you will like extended edition of Jurassic World, Dominion. I certainly didn't think it was as bad as the reviews were. I think…

1:07:53James MottramI think most Jurassic fans d… don't. I think most Jur… I think in the end it was a classic example of critics versus audience.

1:08:00Jawad MirAudience.

1:08:01James MottramI mean, I would assume the billion dollars that they took was not from... W… was partly repeat business. I think that people went back and re-watched it.

1:08:13Jawad MirSure.

1:08:13James MottramAnd most fans I've spoken to have liked it, and they've, they've, you know, yes, they accept it's not, it's not the original movie.

1:08:21Jawad MirYeah.

1:08:22James MottramBut like I said earlier, the bar was set so high, you're not gonna... That's a lightning in a bottle moment.

1:08:28Jawad MirAbsolutely. But I think the, for me personally, one of the things that I wasn't... I mean, it's not something that I'm gonna say, "Oh, the movie sucks because of that," but it was the middle part where they go for the, where the dinosaurs have this, the smuggling thing and all that stuff. I thought that wasn't really developed. But having said that, overall it was, it was such a engaging film, especially the whole sequence in the, in Malta, you know, when the chase happened and all that stuff. And even the finale, and I really liked the science behind it. Like, I was so glad that they had the science that they had in the first film in the first half, they had that in the last half of this film, which was, which I thought was really cool.

1:09:14James MottramI also loved the fact that they brought, Lewis Dodgson back, who is always one of my favorite characters from the books.

1:09:23Jawad MirYeah.

1:09:23James MottramObviously he's, somewhat d… well, somewhat different here. I mean, in the books, he was, not the head of Biosyn and…

1:09:31Jawad MirYeah

1:09:31James Mottram... He was kind of a sociopath really. But

1:09:35Jawad MirWell, he…

1:09:36James MottramYeah, I loved him here. He's a sort of, you know, this sort of Steve Jobsian type figure. Campbell Scott is also one of my favorite actors. You were asking about people that were fun to interview. Campbell Scott, purely 'cause I love him, I love his work, and I was so happy he was in the film and that he was playing Dodgson.

1:09:56Jawad MirYeah

1:09:56James Mottram... So yeah, I was really pleased to see him in it.

1:09:59Jawad MirIt's funny you mentioned Steve Jobs. When I was watching the movie with my son, my son, he's only 12, he elbowed me, he goes, "That looks like Tim Cook." And I was like, "Actually, he does." I wonder if it was an accidental thing or what happened. But, going back to your book, just one last couple of things. When you saw the actual book, right, I mean, here it is, how, what did you feel, like, when you actually saw this thing in its entirety for the first time?

1:10:27James MottramIt's very strange because if I'm being totally honest, I haven't massively looked through it because it's like, I looked at... I'll tell you what I did look at, and which is one thing, the, you know, people on Amazon and so forth who sort of review it, they all seem to be really enamored by this, and this is very much a trait of all of these Ultimate Visual History books are the, are the sort of pullout little gimmicks.

1:10:51Jawad MirLove those.

1:10:51James MottramYeah, everyone loves those. You know, they, you had them in the Die Hard one as well. And the, I think that was an idea of my editor who created this series, and, you know, it's a brilliant idea. And of course I hadn't really seen those. I think I might be wrong about this, but they're, i… 'cause you'll get on certain pages where those inserts are placed, there are captions, I think, for those inserts, but I don't think I wrote those insert captions. So I, they were all fairly new to me. I was only very dimly aware of what those were gonna be. And like everyone else, I'm a big fan of those. I mean, they, I had, you know, I had zero to do with those, but, and I, you know, but it's weird because, you know, you have been through the entire layout, so you know it inch by inch. So to then sit and look at the book, it's, it's a strange thing. It's like, it's probably like a filmmaker not going back to watch his movie once he's made it.

1:11:48Jawad MirOh, God, yeah.

1:11:48James MottramAnd it's that sort of a thing. But I th… I mean, in all the cases for all those insight books that I've done, they're beautifully designed, beautifully put together. I think they're well worth the money, to be honest, because they're, they're just…

1:12:05Jawad MirOh

1:12:05James Mottram... They're la… they are genuinely lavish. It's like, never mind that I've written them. It's got nothing to do with me. They're just really well... I haven't actually seen the ET one yet. I really want to see it. I imagine that's great.

1:12:17Jawad MirIt's great. I honestly read both of these books, very quickly, aside from the fact that whenever I didn't have time, I would split them into, you know, certain chapters. And even though I knew a lot of stuff, it was just, like I said earlier, there was just something, the way it's told is like watching the movie, right? Like, you're, you're, you're feeling these actors as human beings as opposed to just being actors. And

1:12:45James MottramWell, you can, you can sit down with your son and watch all six back to back now.

1:12:49Jawad MirThank you for your time. You have yourself a great evening. I know it's late there, so thank you for staying up.

1:12:54James MottramPleasure. No worries. Thanks so much for speaking to me. Cheers. Take care.

1:12:57Jawad MirAll right. Take care. Bye-bye.

1:12:58James MottramBye-bye.