'Flow', Film Critic, James Mottram

0:09Jawad MirWelcome everyone to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast, the making of stories. I'm your host, Jawad Mir. Today my guest is movie critic and author James Mottram, who I've had on this podcast several times. And today we're talking about the movie Flow, which just recently won the Golden Globe, for Best Animated Feature. We talked about the animation, the storyline, the approach to the film, and a whole lot of other stuff. So without further ado, here's my conversation with James Mottram. Excited to chat to you, about Flow. We talked about it a few months ago when Wild Robot came out. I… my history with Flow is quite interesting because I was standing in the lineup at TIFF, to see Wild Robot, and there was a guy right behind me. He told me about Flow. I had no idea what Flow was. And I immediately moved my tickets around at TIFF, and I went to see it and I was blown away by it. And I think I talked to you about that, previously we chatted. And now it's won the Golden Globe.

1:11Jawad MirRight? So amazing.

1:14James MottramYeah, this is, this is perfect timing this week, 'cause it has just, I guess, upset the apple cart a little bit. 'Cause I think people were predicting, perhaps rightly, that the Wild Robot would sort of sweep these awards. And, well, I wouldn't say Flow's come out of nowhere, 'cause before TIFF, of course, it made its bow in Cannes, in the Un Certain Regard strand I think it was. So people were talking, have been talking about it now for I guess nine months. And clearly your, fellow attendee at TIFF had probably heard good word coming out of Cannes. That's where I first heard about it. I didn't see it there. I didn't see it till probably a little bit after you in, around the autumn time. But yeah, the word has been, has been spreading about this kind of little home-spun animation. I always love it when animations are made by a handful of people or even one person or something. I mean, when you get these kind of crazy animators that just do them all on their own.

2:15James MottramAnd Flow probably more than any other film I've seen, any more, any other animation I've seen this year, has got that kind of home-spun feel, that it's just been made by, you know, a handful of people with a lot of love.

2:32Jawad Mir100%. And it's interesting you mention that. I went to IMDb and normally, you know, there's a whole list of people. I mean, it could be just for the lack of not updating it, but I couldn't find any contacts of anybody except the studio, and that was it. There were no director's name. There was nothing. But, you know, before we even talk about anything else, I would love to know what you thought of the film, considering your first, based on your first viewing. And what did you know about it going in?

3:05James MottramThat's a very good question. Well, I knew it was about a cat. Now, I am a, I am a huge cat lover, so that immediately made me go, "Ooh, I want to see that." and I didn't know a lot else. I think I knew it was largely, well, entirely wordless. Or, I mean, I knew it was sort of without dialogue basically, but I didn't know why it was without dialogue as such. Sometimes you can get films with, let's say, human beings in the background and maybe their, the language they speak is kind of, let's say just as an example, you know, the Charlie Brown cartoons, Peanuts, where he's always listening to the teachers and the teachers are kind of going, "Wah." You know, they're kind of like their language is just kind of a blurred mess. So I thought maybe it would be something like that where, you know, because the animal's, listening to wouldn't, wouldn't understand human language. But as it turns out, I'm not really sure if we should spoil why there's the lack of dialogue in it.

4:06James MottramI don't know if you wanna go down that avenue. But anyway, I did, I knew it was sort of, you know, gonna be more about, let's say, physical, the physical nature of being a cat, being an animal, I suppose. But I really didn't know the setting, the context. Yeah, I didn't know the style of animation. I think I'd seen one image, you know, the image of the cat…

4:30James Mottram... Which is just called Cat with a capital C in the sort of credits I think. So yeah, I didn't, I didn't know a huge amount. And, well, I suppose first of all, I was a little taken aback by the animation because it sort of reminded me of, like, computer animation, from a while ago. It has acquired a sort of rudere… rudimentary feel to it, quite blocky in a way, and that's a very untechnical term. But quite blocky and, yeah. Al… almo… like I say, almost like it clank… came out of a PlayStation 3 or something. I mean, you know, something along those lines. But you c… you swiftly get used to that kind of more basic style. I mean, this is not, you can't go into Flow thinking it's gonna look like a slick Pixar movie or, you know, DreamWorks Animation or something like that, because it doesn't. You know, and again, that speaks back to what we were talking about with the lack of people working on the film.

5:30James MottramIt's obviously been made, you know, wi… wi… in sort of basic principles. But in a way that works quite well. Once you get used to it, you sink into the look of it, the way of it, and I think w… what works brilliantly first of all are the way he captures not just the cat, but there's other animals in it as well, as this cat goes on this sort of journey through this kind of, I suppose you'd say, apocalyptic wilderness where there's been some sort of biblical-esque flood. We're not really sure if it's the future, but we kind of assume it is. A… you know, and this cat meets other animals on the journey, and particularly with the cat, the sort of, the animation of the cat's, behavioral tendencies. You know, the sort of, I don't know, curling up in a little ball and sleeping or licking its paw. The just the things you've seen cats do a million times, but are brilliantly captured here.

6:30James MottramYou could just imagine the guy sitting down, you know, and just observing maybe cats in his home or where… where, you know, wherever he's kind of seen them. And just even cat videos, I expect, on YouTube. I'm sure they got used as research. But yeah, just the way he kind of captures animals' s… simplistic behavior is quite beautiful. But it's not just about that. It is about the way, I suppose it's a sort of environment... There's obviously a strong environmental message in it, and perhaps a message for all of us in terms of how we should help each other, in the way that, you know, the cat learns to kind of be selfless, along in this journey. A… and all, and all these animals kind of end up helping each other, you know, ami… amid this kind of, you know, natural disaster. And then I really, I really like the kind of mysteriousness of it as well. Right at the beginning, and I don't think this is a spoiler to talk about this, the cat is, comes cl… clearly has be… belonged to an artist or a sculptor of some sort, and you sort of s… see the cat, first of all, in this home, and there are drawings of cats on this kind of drawing board.

7:45James MottramAnd then later on you see these kind of huge statues, kind of mysterious statues of felines, and you sort of wonder what kind of place this is. And that's never really explained, and I really like the sort of, as I said, mysterious quality of that. You know, it leaves you wondering. It's like some sort of Inca statues or something and, yeah. Again, you... It's left you... It leaves you wondering what time period we really are in. Perhaps it was 1,000 years ago. We never quite know. You don't see any technology, as I remember. But, yeah, so there's kind of a lot, there's a lot going for it. And the fact it won the Globe is good because it shows that... Well, at least that's obviously voted for by a certain, you know, strand of critics. But at least they were sort of drawn into something unusual that isn't a typical studio animation. I mean, normally when you get pets, if that's the right word, in Hollywood animated films, they're cute and they're kind of there as sidekicks and that's not the case here.

8:53James MottramYou know, cat is obviously a, you know, it's a lead character and it's, it's a very much, you know, about that animal's journey. And it's not there to sort of, I suppose, supplement the human's, the human story. Because there is no real human story in Flow as such. Or at least if there is, it's very much in the background as we're left wondering how on earth we've managed to screw up the planet so badly that there's been this enormous flood.

9:25Jawad MirYeah. I honestly love the fact that the few things that you mentioned, the mystery behind it, like, it... Not a lot of it is explained. It's just left to the audience. But I think the... One of the reasons... It had great animation, it had great music, it had great story and everything, but I think one of the reasons, it's caught people attention, also the Golden Globe, is that i… in the film world, when we're making, when we are watching a film, like, you know, in behind the scenes, when we edit the film, we're always... The messaging is that if you can mute the film and let the visuals tell the story, and even if there is dialogue, and if the visuals can tell you the story, then that means you have done the right job, and I think that's what works with this film more than anything else. 84 minutes, I think the appro… appro… approximate time, running time is, of no dialogue.

10:26Jawad MirAnd for you to be im… in, you know, pulled in into this world and just pulled in right away. I think, like you said, like, the first few minutes you're wondering about the animation, then you're just sucked right into it, right? And I think that's what p… people appreciate. And also the fact of some breathtaking art direction, like some of the designs of the city that later came, come in the film i… is just absolutely beautiful. I mean, one can... Oh, I don't know what's that bird called. Do you know the name of that bird? The one that was in there? Is there a specific bird?

10:59James MottramOh, is that the big, the big bird?

11:01Jawad MirYeah.

11:01James MottramYeah. I'm not sure what that is, actually.

11:03Jawad MirWe'll call it, we'll call it a bird. 'Cause there is a... Well, there's a scene of involving multiple birds, if you recall what I'm talking about. And I thought that was so brilliantly done. It was dark, but at the same time was executed with such perfection and it showed the dark side of... I mean, at, for me, those characters were human beings. Like, you know, like, we're, we're just struggling in this one aspect of, you know, a boat or whatever, and you're trying to de… figure out each other and you're trying to survive. But it's just about that, the human condition, the dark side of us, and how do we survive ba… how, what, the things that we do to survive, essentially. And yeah, and the music. Oh my God, the music. I mean, listening into it in the movie theater was absolutely amazing. I, yeah. I can't... I... It's funny, yesterday when we were talking over email, I had made a comment on some, I think it was a Flow trailer on YouTube, that this film will sweep the Oscars. Or something along the line. And I forgot about it, and then yesterday somebody me… replied back, "You were right, it won the Golden Globe."

12:16Jawad MirSo it's, it's just a powerful film and I hope people get to see it. And the great thing is you don't need to know any language. It's a universal film.

12:24James MottramYeah. It's, it's funny, we were talking... I was talking with a friend the other day about, this is slightly off topic, but Mr. Bean…

12:30Jawad MirYeah

12:30James Mottram... The comedy character Mr. Bean.

12:32Jawad MirRight. Right.

12:32James MottramAnd how that film, when they did the film version of that TV series with Rowan Atkinson, you know, he's obviously a kind of goonish character that gets into lots of mishaps. But when they did, you know, Mr. Bean, Goes on Holiday, I think it was called, you know, it was a huge hit, and of course that's because it's this practically silent work and the... There is no language barrier. And in a way, I don't know how Flow has done so far at the box office or how it will do on the basis of, you know, the Golden Globe and possible other awards triumphs as well, but you feel like it has potential to do really well everywhere simply because of the lack of language barrier. I mean, it, you know, it could easily get released in China, for example, which is a, obviously can be a tricky market to release films in. But here, you know, has a, you know, has a really good chance of appealing to, you know, people from China just as it could appeal to anywhere else. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it does if, you know, if it gets picked up by companies that have the muscle to market it properly.

13:38Jawad MirAnd the, one of the great things about this film aside from all the stuff that we talked about, it... I mean, yeah, you can argue that it's the end of the world or it was the end of the world at some other time because we don't know the time period. It didn't have any political agenda. It was just a story. And I think people now... The audience right now is in that time mind frame where they do not want to be preached. It was just a simple, you know, flood came in or, you know, the sea levels rose or whatever that was, and their survival. And the, again, there was no... Yeah. I mean, the dog, I thought the dog character was kind of interesting. You know, it, there's always one of those among a group of friends or in many of those disaster movies where somebody's just in their own world. And I thought that was kind of cutely done. It was really nicely done the way they have put in the dog and the cat was kind of the lead along with the bird, I would say.

14:35James MottramIt's, what did you make of what I was re… touching on earlier about the style of animation, which is basic on one level? Did that put you off initially or were you, did you just go with it?

14:49Jawad MirIt, I was trying to figure out in the first two, three minutes what kind of animation it is. And when the waters, level start rising, then it just kind of became to me more like 2D/3D/motion capture. Like, it just felt like everything to me. And then interestingly enough, now with the advent of technology, I mean, in the last four months AI has gone through the roof, especially in visuals. Like, there's Google Veo 2, there's OpenAI Sora. Had the movie come out now, I would've guessed it had to do a lot with AI. But I mean, it came out in, at Cannes, so I highly doubt there's any of that. But I just felt it was a combination, it felt like a combination of 2D because of the painting, but 3D objects, and it also felt like motion capture at certain points.

15:50Jawad MirI, again, the, like, I was thinking about that, but the story was and the characters were so well done that I completely forgot about it after two, three minutes. And even if it was AI, which it isn't, I couldn't care less at this point because the film was amazingly done.

16:07James MottramYeah. I mean, I'm just looking at, what films it beat to the Globe. So you had, like, Moana 2 and Inside Out 2. Obviously Inside Out 2 is the biggest hit of 2024.

16:21Jawad MirYeah.

16:21James MottramThe Wild Robot, which we touched upon, which is an e… you know, is an excellent studio movie, there's no doubt about that. And, the Wallace & Gromit movie which is, was shown in the UK on Christmas Day and it is absolutely fantastic. It's one of their…

16:37Jawad MirYeah

16:37James Mottram... One of their best.

16:37Jawad MirI lo… I love the movie. I love that movie.

16:39James MottramYeah. And then, and I have to say this is my favorite animation of the year, A Memoir of a Snail, the Australian stop-motion animation which is a brilliant piece of work. Not really, not really that suitable for kids, although maybe the director would disagree with me. But it kind of means that's a really strong year in general for animation. I mean, I wasn't blown away by Inside Out 2, but I appreciate that, you know, lots of people loved it. And, obviously, as I said, it was the biggest hit of the year. That's gotta be, that's gotta count for something. And, you know, Moana 2 has done pretty well at the box office as well. And yeah, and these other ones are all really interesting, innovative animation. So it feels like it's a very strong year almost. I mean, most of the time you, these days you hear a lot about Annecy, the animation festival which I think is where Flow also,... Sort of appeared.

17:32James MottramAnd that seems to be a stronger and stronger kind of, platform, let's say, for launching animations every year. And y… I don't know, it just feels like a really robust time for the medium. Don't know what you think.

17:47Jawad MirIt is. It is. And I'll tell you an interesting, there's a film. Have you heard of The Glassworker?

17:53James MottramNo, I haven't.

17:54Jawad MirOkay. Look it up. I haven't seen it, but, there's a guy in his early 30s from Pakistan. He hand drew that entire film. It's the very first Pakistani hand-drawn film, and they were trying to push it, like do a whole campaign at the Oscars. And I don't, I don't think it's gonna get through because there's so much competition. But the fact that in this day and era a hand-drawn film was made and it has, like, an anime-type feel to it. It's about war, it's about love. I feel… I feel very mixed about animation's future because I don't, I don't know if you have seen some of the AI samples, of Google Veo 2. If you haven't, take a look. It's just... I'm wondering where animation is gonna head if people are just gonna be able to make these things very quickly. And but at the same time, there's a rebirth of animation ever since Spider worked. A lot of new, different stuff. I mean, have you seen Arcane?

18:55James MottramNo. No.

18:56Jawad MirYou haven't heard of Arcane?

18:58James MottramNo. Sorry, what's it called?

18:59Jawad MirArcane.

19:00James MottramNo.

19:02Jawad MirI highly recommend that. It's a Netflix series. I think it's in second season now. It's just... Yeah, it's really well done. It's a great story. It's creating a lot of buzz over the last few months. People are watching it, and it's, it's really a well executed animation wise as well as story wise. It's a lot of time because it's a series, but worth watching if you have time. I don't know if I answered your question.

19:24James MottramYeah, I mean, it's... I don't know.

19:24Jawad MirSorry.

19:24James MottramYeah, it does, it does feel like it is a rebirth. I think, you know, maybe like vinyl records come back into fashion, hand-drawn animation will come back into fashion as well. I mean…

19:35Jawad MirYeah

19:36James Mottram... You know, there's, there's kind of a lot to love, I think, about the idea of someone literally drawing it frame by frame by hand. I suppose it's like when they sell, you know, handcrafted goods in stores, and you know that there was someone…

19:51Jawad MirYeah

19:51James Mottram... Not a machine producing it, but there was someone there actually, you know, creating a… an ashtray out of a piece of wood, or whatever it might be. And, yeah. I d… yeah, I mean, I hope that it... That there will be a rebirth or a continued rebirth in animation, 'cause it'll probably... It just adds to the, you know, the different, the different feel that it can give you. I kind of often find with computer animation, not... So, you know, you can be left a little cold at times, and it's just nice to have the variety.

20:22Jawad MirYeah, no, I agree. And I think, you know, the traditional animation started with Snow White and the Seven Dwarves in 1939. And I would... Computer animation obviously came with Toy Story, but there were certain elements of computer animation in films like Rescuers Down Under, which was in the late '80s. So that's almost 60 years of traditional anim… sorry. Was it 60? 50 years of traditional animation before the whole 3D kind of started kicking in. And now if you look at it's been almost 33, 34 years since Toy Story came out, so people's appetite is, you know, kind of like, "Okay, I..." 'Cause a… again, it's like you look at a Pixar film, you look at a DreamWorks film, it just feels like a 3D film. It's great, nothing wrong with it, but until something different pops out and it catches people's imagination a little bit more. Obviously, the story matters, too. I also think it's funny because you mentioned that, and I've been saying that about AI. I also think just like visual effects kind of got too much and people got tired of it, and they are getting tired of it with Marvel movies and everything, I feel we're like at that place with animation, and we'll probably...

21:29Jawad MirWe will be at that place with each, with live and animation once AI becomes more stronger because people would still want to see something original because there's a personal connection, there's a personal touch to it by a human being, a story, a hand-drawn frame, whatever that is.

21:49James MottramYeah. No, I think so. I mean, in the end it's how it... There are all these tools that are, available to filmmakers now, but of course it does always come back to the story. You know, the early Pixar films, or even the, some of the more recent ones are a c… a complete genius because, not so much because of how good the animation is, but obviously because they've worked incredibly hard on those stories and, you know. And, you know, a film like Inside Out is a great concept which is very cleverly seen through to the, you know, to the final frames. Not all animations can really say that, basically. Or not all films generally can say that they've got that much thought put into them, into the stories. But yeah, I guess sort of bringing it back to Flow, something like that, I guess we... I don't know. Would you say you've never seen anything like Flow before? That's what it feels like to me.

22:43Jawad MirI agree. I have not. I have not seen anything like it before. And, I don't know if it's gonna start a trend, in terms of silent storytelling, in terms of the animation style, but I have never seen anything like that. And I truly, I feel now that it's won a Golden Globe, I think it's gonna sweep the Oscars.

23:05James MottramWell, it's interesting. I mean, we've had the occasional silent movie in live action, like The Artist being the obvious example that kind of swept the Oscars a few years ago now. I think it was 2011 or something like that.

23:17Jawad MirYeah.

23:17James MottramBut…

23:18Jawad MirYeah

23:18James Mottram... Yeah. The, there are ra… It's rare to see a silent film now in any capacity, whether it's animation or live action. And it would be nice to see some more, and maybe even see a re… a rebirth of interest in the original silent movies possibly and, you know, see some further restorations and, you know, screenings of those ones. You know, if,.. 'Cause it, again, they're, they're, they're the very origins of movie making in a way.

23:52Jawad MirYeah.

23:52James MottramSo it would be nice to see those remembered and appreciated and... 'Cause it's a, it's a fascinating physical form. Obviously it doesn't rely on sound and dialogue, as we've said. So, yeah, it would be nice to see some more silent movies. But whether Flow will inspire those, I don't know.

24:10Jawad MirI think, you know, the thing with live action versus animation is live action silent movies you can maybe, you know, because they're live action, like they're real people, right? You can, you can somehow relate to it. But I think it's harder for animation because you have these characters that are not real, and you have to create these facial expressions and these movements and these moments. Without a single word. At least, you know, with dialogue you can convey that. And I think that's what makes this film so phenomenally great is that it's not because it's silent, not because it's for beautiful animation, but everything about it was perfection. It just was executed perfectly, conveyed the emotions for the audience and that's why it worked, and I really hope that they do try to make more stuff like that. I mean, i… in the world of live action, a lot of short films are, more or less silent, right?

25:10Jawad Mir... But it would be, it would be nice. It would be nice to see if there's something you can pull off in a feature without having to do... I'm sure they've tried. May… there are some films, like Cast Away I would k… kind of like to consider somewhat in a way. I mean, you…

25:24James MottramIt's funny, I've literally…... Moments before speaking to you, I've been writing about Robert Zemeckis and his new film, Here.

25:32Jawad MirYeah

25:32James Mottram... And I mentioned Cast Away, of course, as a... You know, Zemeckis is kind of this, you know, o… almost one in a million filmmaker that is consistently trying to push the envelope a… and particularly with digital effects, as we were just talking about, and I don't know if listeners are aware of Here, if that's come out yet in the States. I think it might have. But

25:52Jawad MirIt has. It has. It came out last…

25:53James MottramBut, you know, obviously there they're using, you know, groundbreaking technology to de-age characters, which has been done before, but Here has done perhaps even more sort of significantly than in a… in any other film. But yeah, I mean, you know, Zemeckis is kind of a... Having done things like Polar Express and, Christmas Carol and Beowulf, you know, these sort of, motion capture animated films, he really has tried to push the envelope. Often it doesn't quite work, you know? He's so, he's so in the vanguard that the technology's... He's almost ahead of the technology. But yeah, Cast Away was a little different. Of course, that was a complete live action, one person on an i… on a desert island having to basically act with a volleyball, if I remember rightly.

26:38Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. W… h… I... What did you think of Here? I mean, now that you mention it.

26:44James MottramI wasn't a big fan, to be honest.

26:48Jawad MirReally?

26:48James MottramYeah. I thought it was... I mean, I thought it was a, again, is a great high concept, the high concept being obviously it shows various people's lives across centuries all in one space. So whether it's a patch of land or then later a house that's built on that patch of land, and who has gone through that space across the centuries is a really fascinating idea. And it, you know, I think the real high concept here is less the de-aging techniques that he's using, but the fact that the camera's in one fixed position for the entire movie, and that is a very hard thing to pull off. But sort of narratively it didn't really work for me, perhaps 'cause there's too many stories it's trying to cover. You know, the central one of course is the Tom Hanks, Robin Wright kind of relationship, which was okay but didn't move me in perhaps the way, y… you know, Zemeckis would hope. But then I've read... You know, and I've read some harsh reviews of that film, but equally I've read reviews just, you know, members of the public going online who've said they loved it.

27:56James MottramSo, you know, I think it's f… it's not a film for critics. I think critics will round on it, or have already rounded on it, but then Zemeckis has faced that through a lot of his career and still come up trumps.

28:09Jawad MirYeah, no, I really liked it. I thought the first eight minutes were a gimmick. I was... I had, the cinematographer Don Burgess on the podcast and he And I thought the arc, the characters was really well done. Like I... Especially the way it ended, you know. Yeah, I was very emotionally invested and I actually ended up seeing it three times…

28:35James MottramWow

28:35Jawad Mir... Which is very rare for me. Yeah.

28:36James MottramOkay. Well, that's good.

28:37Jawad MirYeah.

28:37James MottramI'm glad that, you know, that it's not, you know, that people... It's not universally been panned because, you know, when you end up reading a few reviews you sort of think that's what everyone thinks…

28:46Jawad MirYeah

28:46James Mottram... When actually it's only a handful of people's opinions in the end. But yeah, I, you know, I don't know how well it's done so far in the, in North America, but I can't imagine it's gonna... It's obviously billed as the Forrest Gump reunion because of Zemeckis, Hanks, and Robin Wright, but it really doesn't have a great deal to do with that film just beyond the fact it's 30 years later and they're back together working for the first time.

29:11Jawad MirYeah. And Eric Roth who wrote…

29:12James MottramAnd Eric Roth, exactly. Yes, good point.

29:14Jawad MirIt actually did really bad at the box office, and I do feel it's one of those films that in time it's gonna be appreciated more and more being about Especially, again, it was... I was talking to, about Don, is that I feel that people who are in their 40s, 50s watching this film, they will probably appreciate it more as they age. The film is about. But awesome, man. Do you think, Flow is gonna win the Oscar? I think it will.

29:48James MottramGood question. I don't know because obviously it's a very different voting body to the Golden Globes.

29:55Jawad MirIt is.

29:55James MottramAs I was saying earlier, that's decided by a handful of... Well, I dunno how many, 100 or so critics or whatever it is. And I don't know. That's a really hard question. I kind of feel like one of the big ones like The Wild Robot will probably take it, but you know, the thing is even the fact that it'll m… m… most likely get nominated will put it in the spotlight, and that's really good for a small film like Flow…

30:23Jawad MirYeah

30:23James Mottram... Which is being released I think by specialist companies. I think in the States it's being released by, I'm just looking at this, Sideshow and Janus Films who did films like Drive My Car, which the Japanese film that did really well at the Oscars. So, you know, the, if they handle it correctly may… maybe it could, but they're gonna have to be as innovative in their campaign… As the film itself is, if you see what I mean. I mean, they're really gonna have to start…

30:49Jawad MirYeah

30:49James Mottram... To beat the big boys. The might of Pixar and, you know, Moana 2, et cetera. It's, it's gonna be tough. But you know, you never know.

30:57Jawad MirI don't think Moana 2 or Inside 2 have a chance. Not because they're not good or bad movies, I just don't think they're going to beat The Polar Express because they're older movies. I think it's either going to be Flo or... But I truly think... Yeah, when I saw Wild Robot, I thought that's it, Wild Robot, and two days later I saw Flo, it changed my mind completely.

31:29James MottramHave you seen Memoir of a Snail yet?

31:31Jawad MirNo, I have not. I should see that. I should see that.

31:34James MottramYeah. It's, it's... I s… I saw that kind of at a festival almost simply because it fitted in with my morning, and I thought, "Oh, I wonder what that is." And then I realized that the filmmaker, Adam Elliott, had made a film called Mary and Max, which I really enjoyed. So I was very happy that I'd, I'd made the decision to go, but still didn't realize that it was as good as it, as it was until I saw it, and I was like absolutely blown away by it. So it's very funny, very moving. Brilliantly animated, of course, as well. Yeah, I highly recommend it to anyone that's listening.

32:06Jawad MirYeah. I just Googled it and it says it's a drama/tragic comedy. It's a new category. That's... But it looks good. It has a little bit of Tim Burton feel to it from the thumbnail…

32:18James MottramYes

32:18Jawad Mir... Portion.

32:18James MottramIt's definitely got a little Burton-esque element, with a little bit of an Aussie twang to it, let's say.

32:25Jawad MirI'll check it out. I'll check it out. Awesome. I know you're working on something. I can't wait for that. And, really looking forward to that particular project. So really excited to…

32:40James MottramWell, I'm ex… I'll be excited to talk to you about it as and when I can.

32:44Jawad MirYeah. I know

32:45James Mottram... Yeah.

32:45Jawad MirYeah.

32:46James MottramFirst draft…

32:46Jawad MirI…

32:46James Mottram... Has been handed in, that much I can say. This is not really telling anyone anything at the moment, but we'll talk... As far as I know, we can talk about it fairly soon. So then we'll, we'll come back and have a chat about it.