'From Bomb Shelters to Freedom', Actress, Hanna Novak

0:09Jawad MirGood afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast and Making of Stories. I'm your host, Joe Adame here. Today, my guest is actress Hanna Nowak, who I had the pleasure of meeting in Poland last month, and she told me her story, and I was like, "You have to be on this podcast." Even though it's not a film, it certainly should be made into a film, of her escape from Ukraine at the beginning of the war. I won't say anything more than that. I would let you take a listen of her escape from Ukraine with her cat, Mr. Joseph. We talked about it, when we, when we met in,.. I was gonna say when we met in Ukraine, I meant to say Poland. When we met in Poland and, you know, however you wanna take it as to... What I would love to sort of start with, Hanna, is that, who is Hanna? Let's start with that first.

1:02HannahWell, that's kind of philosophical question. I would like to talk as if I'm a human, and I'm definitely an actress.

1:19Jawad MirFair enough. Since you mentioned actress, what was the moment that you realized that you wanted to become an actress? Was it a movie? Was it a performance?

1:34HannahI don't have, like, any, like, moment of realization. It was just, like, step by step. It started from actually people telling me that I should be an actor, and then me slowly realizing that I'm interested, that then that I can try. Then I'm trying, then I'm doing that, and at some moment I'm like, "Oh my God, I found a profession. So I will have stuff to do till the end of my life. That's cool."

2:07Jawad MirThat's amazing. What was your first, work? Was it a theater? Was it a short film, a feature?

2:14HannahVery first, I believe I just booked a commercial, which is, like, quite a normal way to start. And the first acting job was, a TV series on national channel in Ukraine, as far as I'm Ukrainian.

2:34Jawad MirAnd what was your role? What did you play?

2:38HannahOh, well, I play as... I played... That was a very cunning lady who was trying to scam people.

2:52Jawad MirIs that, something you could relate to?

2:57HannahAbsolutely. I can relate to anything. That's why I'm an actress. I just, I understand everyone. Serial killers, like, people who commit suicides, like some tricksters, whatever. Because, like, eventually every person has a tiny part of everything, which is, like, my job and the stuff I do is just to find it out and to expand just for a movie. Then I put it back, and I don't use it in, everyday life.

3:36Jawad MirFair enough. So let's, let's talk about w… you know, when you and I met, we somehow got onto this conversation about your story in the last few years, of how you being from Ukraine and when the war started, and how you made your way out of there. In whichever fashion you want to start, maybe from the day one and pretty much the story as it unfolded, I'll let you go ahead and take a lead on that.

4:13HannahOh, wow. Okay. To unwrap it and make a little bit, like, clearer for everyone is just, like, I'm located and based now in Poland, in Warsaw. And initially I'm Ukrainian. I was living and working in Kyiv, in capital, for, like, six years, let's say. And when the full scale invasion of Russia started, I was not prepared because I was the person who is not, watching news at all. Like, some people say it's, like, really good to be that crazy, but I was just, like, really s… shocked and surprised and not prepared, like, for this, situation at all, because I was not watching any sort of news. And yeah, I just became a refugee.

5:15Jawad MirBut when the war started and, how you sort of managed your way from Ukraine to Poland, as you described to me when we met, in a similar fashion or more detailed fashion, if… ... If you can share that…

5:35HannahYeah, sure

5:35Jawad Mir... That would be good.

5:37HannahSure. The thing is, when you are not prepared, you don't know what to do, and you don't know the procedures. Like, not everyone is ready to, digest, what's happening because it's, like, a full scale invasion was bombarding the place I was living in, like, directly. So the first step w… w… what we did and what I did, we started to fi… to hide in bomb shelters. First of all, you have to find it. It's not that easy. And, in Kyiv, we have, metro system which is incredibly deep. It's still like, I believe they were preparing for that since like... N… not exactly for that, but for any sort of war in Soviet Union, so that's why they built the metro incredibly deep.

6:39HannahYou can just like travel in escalator like for five, seven minutes. You just like stand on the steps and five, seven minutes just like, oh, you have nothing to do, and you go like really deep. So I was hiding there, every night for a week with my cat.

7:04Jawad MirWhat's the name of your cat?

7:06HannahHis name is Mr. Joseph.

7:09Jawad MirMr. Joseph, sir. Go on.

7:11HannahYes. I was hiding there with a cat. There were lots of people, and of course it's not the place to stay for long. It's just a place to sit like in a train and go away, but we were like locating there one on another like this. Everyone brings like children and animals, some precious stuff. I didn't have any. I just had like a little purse and that cat, so I was living there. Not living, but staying every night, for a week. It was like a real catastrophe. There was no water in shops. Like, there was nothing in shops. Like, very quickly, like people went to, like to buy everything. Started like to get prepared for some really, long suffer. And so, and in, at one night when I was just then sitting there and scrolling news, like finally I introduced myself to a news world where I can like understand what's happening further than around my nose.

8:23HannahAnd I found out that the Russian army are killing currently civilians, which was like... Gave an understanding that I'm also a target. It's not just, attempt to take over the Ukrainian government. It's like they're hunting everyone. And that changed my perception from I will stay in bomb shelter as long as I can, to I will run away from them as far as I can. And, actually my initial idea was to, flee to US because I thought like this: If I go to the other side of the globe, they won't get me.

9:20HannahAnd I felt myself like tiny, small, as if I'm like escaping and running, and every stage I make is like this little tiny... I don't play computer games, but like this small, tiny thing in computer game, and the huge dinosaur is hunting you. So I felt like this, the difference between the sizes of my body and the catastrophe that is, trying to grab me. So, just had like a clear realization I have to flee. And, I had to organize it because it's not that easy. Lots of people who decided to drive by themselves, they were caught and killed, who were escaping at least from Kyiv region, and from many others unfortunately.

10:27HannahSo I googled that the best way is to try to take the evacuation train, which was like organized like by the city system, by the government. And, it's for free. It's, it goes like quite often. But it's quite a challenge to take the place there because it's a huge competition. Everyone wants to escape, and, I just decided to go as early as I can. We have also currently in Ukraine, even now and before as well, a curfew hours when you can't get out at all, and it's only militaries and police who are driving around the city. So after curfew hour, I just packed all my life. I was renting an apartment for six years. I packed all my life in one case, and my cat, which is also like all my life in another case. And, I went for this, crazy experience of sitting in this, evacuation train for 12 hours.

11:39HannahNo food, no lavatory, no place to sit. Like I was standing for 12 hours, and we were most of the time traveling in darkness because it was dangerous to, for a train to have lights. That's how we could be detectable. And sometimes the train was like freezing, like just stopping as if we are not there, not to be spotted by the Russian drone system and some bomba… bombardings. So that's how I escaped to Lviv It's on the border of Ukraine and Poland, the city.

12:20Jawad MirRight. So let me, let me get some clarification. So you were in the subway or, you know, six, seven levels down for one week, and then from there you went back to your house to get your stuff, or you went straight to the train?

12:39HannahI was,.. Yeah, I went back to my house. I packed, as I said, my six years of life in a small…

12:50Jawad MirOkay, great

12:50Hannah... Suitcase. And I... And it was quite near, so my place was near that station, so it's like two minutes walk.

12:59Jawad MirGot it. So being in that subway for a week, right? W… explain to me that environment where there's a lot of people. Who are you talking to? What is going through your mind? You know, all that experience of that one week. And did you hear the bombardments outside even though it was way below? Just talk me through that. I would love to know that, as much as you can, explain.

13:34HannahWell, when you are so deep, you can't hear bombardings. That's why you think everything is fine. So the source of information was, let's say like Telegram channels or WhatsApp channels… ... Where, like, people were posting news and saying where they heard it and what's happening, like, around. So immediately there were created some groups only, like, from this district of Kyiv, and the people were, like, writing down, did the missile hit them or not, because it was near. So it was like everyone tried to share information. So I was, like, sitting in that bunker and getting information only from the phone.

14:20HannahI wish I would be a documentalist, because the small environment which happened on a, subway station, it's just, like, unbelievable, unrepeatable. Because, like, just people who don't know each other, they arrive there and they try to live, like, in a big, family. Like as if…

14:44Hannah... It's one flat, because there is, like, nothing. It's just, like, marble floors and marble walls and two toilets, like, that's it. And so…

14:56Jawad MirAnd how many people were there, you think?

14:59HannahAt my, station there weren't, was not too much because I was living in this, a city center, and there's not too many. It's more like a business place where…

15:08Jawad MirRight

15:08Hannah... For people like to work there, not to live. Like in my station was, like, let's say 100.

15:16Jawad MirOkay.

15:16HannahAnd 50 of them were always in the queue for a toilet, so it's just like...

15:21Jawad MirYeah, makes sense. W… you know, wh… when a situation like that arises, right, it doesn't matter where you're from, it's just human nature, when food becomes short, when space becomes less, and then you have the stress of not being at your home, and there's bombardment going out, were there any individuals who created problems? Not because they wanted to, but just because the mental health, for the lack of better word, got to them?

15:52HannahAha. Well, people were going a bit crazy. Like fighting…

15:59Jawad MirLike were there fights? Yeah

16:01Hannah... Fighting for better place on this marble stuff. Like, yeah, something can be better or worse. And, I believe on, fourth day we also got the trains on the station with open doors not moving, so that, the subway was not working from the first day, but also they gave us trains, so it was a competition to take a sit there just, like, to have any sort of sit and not to be that cold on the marble.

16:30HannahSo it was big competition. O… once I had a really, funny fight and, like now I understand that maybe people are sharing that story from such a side that they met a crazy woman with a cat, and that was me. But at that moment I thought I'm com… I'm completely right, because I took three seats to, like, to lie down, like to sleep, and, like, my height is, like, actually three seats, of

16:59Jawad MirYeah

16:59Hannah... There's in train. And the fourth one I took for my cat, for him, like, to sit on a box, but on that sit, not on the floor. And that started to be a problem, because, like, some people got inside and they had to stay on the floor, but I just took, and that cat, and somehow they could not, like, make a direct, fight with me. So they were like, you know, like gossiping, tell… telling it to someone. So it was a problem, but I was pretending I don't sense it, because directly there was nothing happening. And then, some, like, drunk guy went inside that train and he tried to take the sit near me, like instead of my cat. And, the whole, this wagon separated like on two groups.

17:59HannahOne was for the guy, because the seats are for people. Because, like, he's human, he has to sit. Other people say that he's drunk, he can make a problem. Maybe he's a rapist, or he will steal something when we are asleep, so better the cat than this guy. So they were, like, deciding a… a… and fighting and, Actually, my cat won because he's quite cute. He's He just, like, made this, like, cute face, and the guy was not making cute face. And I was saying, "I'm not gonna, like, stay with you, like, in this close seat. You're cl… you're clearly drunk." so he started to make such a problem that the even police came, and they relocated him somewhere. I don't know where. And, yeah. It was just like a, like, little war inside.

18:59HannahAnd it was funny to see who votes for whom. Like, more…

19:04Jawad MirYeah

19:04Hannah... Young people are for the cat, and the, like, elder group, of course, like for human, like they say, for human rights. And it's not a problem that someone is drunk, 'cause it's like, why not? Maybe they would also like to get drunk. They just don't have anything. Because yeah, to get there, you should be, like, checked if you have something with yourself, like some sort of weapon or…

19:32Jawad MirOh, okay

19:32Hannah... Alcohol or drugs. Yes. The militaries were checking you to put their, like, to let you go to this

19:42Jawad MirOkay. No, thanks for sharing that. That's, that's quite interesting. And now you think that was a bit... You were wrong in that situation?

19:58HannahI think I was crazy. Yeah. I was crazy. I mean, of course, m… that guy w… was not a best fit for, that place near me, but maybe someone…

20:13Jawad MirRight

20:13Hannah... Sober and human could take it. But I was so worried that the cat is scared, that I wanted, like, to sleep, l… lying down to sleep, and has his face seeing my face. That, like, makes him calm. Because I can't get him out.

20:26HannahHe will run away. So he sits in a box, but when he sees my face, he was calming down because he did not react well on this overall situation, being in a cage for the whole night. Yeah. So, no one is wrong or right, but someone is definitely crazy.

20:47Jawad MirAnd in that week, how... What were your feelings like? Were you, like, was there any vulnerability? Were you scared? Were you calm most... Were you calming people? Were anybody calming you? Like, what was going through your mind and through your heart during that entire week, of that experience that you had?

21:12HannahI guess my basic reaction was to freeze, just to freeze and wait. So I was, not having any emotional, like, breakdowns. No one should, calm me down. And, no one had such a big breakouts back then that I would need, like, to help someone. It's, it was more like, you know, like, you lose your breath and, like, you freeze as if you dive on… under the water. And you, like…

21:48Hannah... It's not inhale and not exhale. It's like nothing, just to wait and observe. So I literally freezed. And, I was getting calls. It's so cool that so deep the phone is, like, working and you can, like, use internet.

22:05Jawad MirI was gonna ask you that. Yeah.

22:07HannahYeah. When you travel in a subway quickly, it's not a great internet connection. But when you're just inside and you're not moving in a train, it's quite okay. So people were calling me from different countries whom I know, like from several countries. And I was having clear connection and talking and, yeah. Like, my psyche went into this saving mode, and I was very clear, very straight. And, like, someone told me, "Oh my God, you're having this metal balls. Like, you're not even crying." I was prepared, like, to tell you something, like calming down. But I was just, like, very sober. So th… th… that was the reaction to just save myself. It doesn't mean that I'm brave or whatever.

22:55Jawad MirAnd were you in touch with your family, your siblings, your mom and dad, or your friends?

23:01HannahYes, absolutely. It's actually... Yeah, my mom called me because I sleep so well that I don't hear bombarding. So she let me sleep, from 4:00 to 10:00 AM, and at 10 she already decided to call me and to say, "What are you doing?" And I say, "Sleeping." And she said, "Okay, but the war has started." And there were, like, it was loud. You could hear that, but I was just sleeping. Yeah, so she saved, like, me several hours because she could have started, I don't know, from 7:00 AM or from 4:00 AM. Yeah, I was in touch. And no one was, like, talking, like what to do. It's like, it's more, like, realization that the neighbor country is, like, doing that, like, more and more, and that it's that serious. Like…

23:54Hannah... That serious. Like, again, like in 2014 but, like, a huge one. And it, and it went worse than 2014 as per, as per their, behavior, towards, our militaries and, civilians. So the realization of that, it's like you can understand something on a very, like, top level, but when it soaks in, it takes time and it changes, like…... Personality. A lot o… lots of my friends who stayed in Ukraine, they say they don't recognize themselves like four years

24:34Hannah... Earlier. Like, as if it's someone different. It's like, "Who's that?"

24:41Jawad MirDid you know anyone during that time when you were in the train, in the subway station, that you found out through your friends or through your family, whether it was an acquaintance, relative, or a friend that didn't make it?

25:03HannahAt that time? At that time, no. Everything has just started. Like, now I already have some acquaintances or some colleagues from theater who were killed by Russian army.

25:23Jawad MirSorry for your loss. And how do you deal with that?

25:36HannahI guess I go through all the circles of acceptance, starting from I don't believe it, to being, like, extremely angry, aggressive, then confessing I'm just, powerless to change something. And then, like, the real grief comes, and maybe it will, give birth to something that is connected to what I can do to some… to something artistic, to... I really like... I would love to share, like, the stories of those people in, not in, like, narrative form, but in a form that can be understood by, more people, but just…

26:35Jawad MirMaybe you should start a podcast.

26:37HannahOh my God. I will observe yours a bit longer.

26:49Jawad MirBut it is…

26:50HannahAnd, you know…

26:50Jawad MirSorry, go on.

26:52HannahI feel like this, losses, it's like it's not necessarily should be my friend or colleague to feel all that… ... Horror inside. And as a paradox, and I have my theory why and how it happens, it looks like when someone is killed and it's earlier than it's planned by, let's say, God in whatever form…

27:26Hannah... It exists, it looks like they still have a power, and this power goes to, like, just the next, line or the next, branch, br… branch of the, na… na… nation, let's say. As if we are the roots of a tree, and one piece of root is just, like, cut.

27:59HannahSo the whole energy goes to, like, just the n… the next, line of this, root. And we just, it's... It feels like I'm unstoppable, we are unstoppable and unkillable. Like, there is a very popular currently the having a T-shirt in Ukraine saying that, "The death won't kill me," or, "The death won't stop me." It's a paradox because, like, it's, actually it will stop you, but not completely. Something's safe. So I, this is how I deal with this. I don't think it's quite clever, but that's what I feel.

28:47Jawad MirYeah. Well, I mean, you gotta deal with the way you wanna d… you are able to deal with it, right? When you start analyzing, "Oh, I'm not dealing with it properly," or comparing yourself to somebody else, then you're shooting yourself in the foot, because you're different than somebody else. Everybody has different ways of dealing with certain things. I would like to go back to the subway station. So from there, you said that it was a two-minute walk or three-minute walk to your place where you packed up stuff, and then you went to the train station, got on the train. That part, not the train, but just from that subway to your house, from your house to the train, did you... I know you were, you went through a curfew time, but was there anything out of the... Did you hear anything? Did you see anything that, whether it was fellow Ukrainian or somebody else, that kinda gave you more of a fear, because now you're outside after one week of being underground, and now you're exposed?

29:53HannahIt's, it's again sort of a paradox because the bomb shelling, the missile that hits, it takes one second.

30:04Jawad MirYeah.

30:05HannahAnd after that second, everything is the same as it was, except of that exact place. But further, you don't see it, you don't hear it, and you think it's quite okay.

30:15Jawad MirOkay. Yeah.

30:16HannahSo when I got out, it was just like nothing. Not too many people. Very calm, sunny weather

30:26Jawad MirInteresting

30:26Hannah... As if everything is okay because, like, from my spot I can't see what's happening on the different bank of the river from which side the, Russians were approaching the city, and they were extremely near and creating all this Bucha, Irpin, massacre, like, right there. So if you don't see it, you don't feel it, you don't know it, and it's happening in real time. Me walking and seeing the beautiful weather, and, the genocide just on the next bank of the river, for example. That's what was happening. So my fear was only, like, from understanding what's going on and then there is no way back. Nothing will become again good. So I just, like, saw my apartment and I was, like, shocked. Okay, I have just a suitcase. No one can help me, like, to hold it, to bring it to somewhere, so it should be lightweight.

31:27HannahBut it still should take, like, it should, contain something necessary or something that I love. So I remember, like, trying to decide what I'm packing, and it was it was rough. I actually was trying to put inside the portrait of my grandmother, and it was embedded, like, together with, it has a metal frame and I could not take it out because it's, like, it was 50 years old, so it would, like, take time to take it out. And I was packing it, holding, "No, it's too heavy," so I take it out and just like... And I was talking to her, "Do you wanna travel?" And she said, "No." I didn't take it, but what I took, hear me out here, it's a golden swimming suit. Yeah, so it's a continuation of the story of the crazy woman with a cat.

32:31HannahI just somehow felt like, oh, my God, it's like, it weighs nothing. It's, like, 15 grams, but it's, like, so shiny and, like, I need, like, to take it to feel, like, better. I don't know where I was planning to swim. Yeah, maybe in America, because I said, "Okay, I will go to another part of the world," and they have, like, swimming suits there. So it's, it's rough. The, you know, it... Lots of people don't recognize themselves, like, when, like me now, like, this solution, like, talking to a portrait, "Do you wanna travel?" As if, like, I invite my, at that time, late granny to travel, or the swimming suit. Yeah. So it was for me quite a lonely time, and having fun with, the thoughts traveling around my…

33:27Jawad MirYeah

33:27Hannah... Brain and ideas.

33:31Jawad MirYeah. No, it, you gotta keep yourself entertained, right? For the lack of better word, just to keep yourself sane. When you decided to go, right, to escape, you had a communication with your mom or your family that, okay, or... And they were supportive of that you should go? Or was there any, should I... I'm sure they were, like, further apart from where you were in the city center, but was there any kind of feeling like, "Why am I going alone? I should take my family with me?"

34:02HannahNo. My family quite clearly, refused to move. All my family is in Odesa. I'm born and raised there. It's on the sea coast, of the Black Sea. It's in, on the south of Ukraine. So I was in brief touch with Mom and, at the very beginning she proposed just to come to her with the cat. But I did not feel quite a difference. Either you're in a capital or in Odesa. It was a bit calmer there in the beginning, but then it wasn't eventually.

34:41HannahSo, I remember writing to her, like, I was also scared to go that, if I'm allowed or not, if my family allows me or not. There was also this feeling, and I'm quite grown up and I don't live with my family for the last, 15 years, but still I wanted, like, to understand that I am allowed.

35:06Jawad MirYeah. Of course.

35:06HannahSo I actually wrote to my mom that, or called her, and I said, "You know, I wanna escape and I don't know, like, how, but I will, like, try to flee to America." And she says, "Okay." And I say, "But you understand in America?" And she says, "And what does it mean?" And I said, "You know, they normally have such crazy rules that if you are inside and you are, like, refugee, you don't have documents, you can't get outside, for quite a time." That's what I said. I said, like, "I don't know the rules, but maybe we won't see each other for 10 years." And she said, like, "But it's very good. You will be safe. It means you should go."

35:57HannahSo when she allowed me, I felt, okay, no one, like, is holding me. She's, like, supporting me, and that was cool.

36:08Jawad MirIt's so interesting hum… as human beings, right? Like, if everything is normal, right, whether it's you and your mom or anybody else, if you had said, "I have a job opportunity in United States," her reaction may have been very different. Right? Like, okay, why are you going to US? This is home. Family's here. Y… this is your roots are here. But when something like that happens, how the parents have this, you know, this little shelter that comes up, and it's about your safety, and that's it. They just completely become selfless. And I... You know, it's a… it's always during those times you really understand relationships, I think, more than you ever can in any other situation. Just a comment. I just thought it's, it's interesting that you mentioned that.

37:04HannahAbsolutely. It's a very, you know, clear time when everyone understand what they really have between them. I thought I have friends…

37:15Jawad MirYeah

37:15Hannah... And they were refusing to talk. I thought that my mom would be, like, terrified and saying, "What are you doing? How would you escape? You don't know anyone there. You don't know anyone around." Like, "You will, like, die from hunger there." And like, no. It's like, okay, dying from hunger takes, like, 30 days. Dying from a missile takes one second. So go for, like, this hungry option just in case you'll, find what to do. So at this, like, you know, lots of people break up, lots of people marry, find love, find better friends, break up old relations, everything. It's like, because the, it's very high stakes when the war starts, and there is a clear evidence that, like, you personally can die now.

38:09Jawad MirYeah.

38:09HannahSo the brain starts to operate quicker.

38:13Jawad MirYou just mentioned there were some, I think, friends or colleagues of yours who didn't respond to your messages, or didn't stay in touch. You wanna talk about that a little bit? I just... I'm just curious what... Was that out of fear, or was that just…

38:29HannahYou know, everyone could be, like, we react differently, and…

38:33Jawad MirYeah, of course

38:34Hannah... Someone could be too loaded…

38:35Jawad MirI'm not, I'm not judging them. Yeah.

38:38HannahSomeone could be too loaded, and they choose the connections, different connections than me, for example. I think on only that. That was not, like, any big story. It's just, like, it went and then the people whom I had a current connection did not react, and some very old connections helped me, even, like, finding a spot in Poland. The, my friend from 13 years ago, we just, I don't know, at some point lost the common ground, and we're just following each other on Instagram, not talking at all, at all. And then, like, she wrote to me, "Aren't you going to Poland? Because there are some people who want, like, to help someone from, like, the compound. Maybe it's you." And I'm like, "Yeah, it's me. I'm, I'm going, and I, and I need help." So th… that's really crazy.

39:40HannahAnd I'm s… like, I'm incredibly grateful, and I was, like, writing to her and whatever, and she said, "I did nothing." Like, for someone, it's nothing, and for me, it's like, oh my God. Like, we had such a good connection that not having connection for 10 years can still, like, embody itself in, like, such sort of the help and, like, reunion and understanding ourselves. Like, it's incredible.

40:12Jawad MirYou know, it i… it is so true. I find that too, is that, I'm not talking about in the situation that you're in or you were in, but just in general, there are certain people that you're in touch with now that you may have a better relationship 10 years from now because they are in different mindset and you are in different mindset, and maybe they are, they don't have what they have right now, or maybe you don't have what you have right now. So, and I have experienced that, where I haven't talked to people for, like, 10, 15 years, and then out of all of a sudden you'll just start talking. If you do con… connect, you'll start talking as if you never stopped talking, and it's so fascinating. I find that very interesting, and it kind of... I think it's a testament to your good times that you had with that person. Yeah. So now you're going to the train station, and you get on the train. And you told me something which I'll let you explain, the part about your grandma, right?

41:17Jawad MirAnd then you are on the train. Just run through that experience of being on the train in more detail and then how something that you reflected back to about your grandmother and that connection. So I'll let you take and, talk about it.

41:37HannahOkay. As I said, to get to that, evacuation train, it's quite a challenge because it's a huge competition. It's, and it's only, like, three, four wagons every… ... Two hours or whatever. And the best time is to go there early morning. So I did it, and I packed, like, shortly, like, just my one suitcase and a cat, and it was extremely cold. Like, my, like, just February. What would you expect? So, that beautiful train decided to park half kilometer from the spot. Of course, to have less people in, just to depart, like, without, like, everyone getting inside because there was already several stops for this train, and it was very few spots left. And what I mean spots are like… Two steps of stairs when you get in the wagon. Like deeper, it's fully packed with people. I don't mean sitting.

42:47HannahStanding, lying, holding each other. Yeah. So and when it parked, I understood, okay, now I have to run. And, it was bad because I was running okay. Some like younger people as well and elder could not, and some of them were falling down and breaking their like jeans, trousers, like hands. I saw like a lady with, blood on hands, and I continued to run instead of helping her to stand up. Ah, and, when I made it, to the doors and I pushed myself inside and I saw like two stairs, three in total, and I was extremely happy. And at that moment I understood that, wow, it feels like I knew what to do. And I realized that my great-grandmother did the same operation in 1941, escaping from Crimea, also in evacuation train when like the Nazi army was very close already.

44:05HannahAnd, she had instead of suitcase and a cat, like two babies. And if not that, decision of hers, she, like the family would be killed because, she's Jewish. So, yeah, if not that decision, I would not exist, and any other like nine siblings I have from that line would not exist as well. And I, at that moment, I had a real clear instruction that I have to run and just to put myself inside and just not to do anything. I just need to move. So that's how she saved herself and, my family, because they survived. They came back to Crimea. The husband came back from war alive. There were m… two more children from this couple and like many grandchildren now.

45:07HannahSo it's beautiful to have this memories embedded like deep somewhere and they wake up when it's needed. Yeah. And before that I was not thinking of that, and I start to think, "Oh my God, at least I have information on the phone. I know at which time to go. I know that it's really harsh." And in her position, it was just rumors that, okay, Nazis are killing civilians, and someone was saying, "It's impossible. They are such a nice people, so we are staying." And they got killed. And some of other group of people decided, "No, we'll try to escape." And they're also fighting for this like several stairs in the wagon…

45:55Hannah... Of evacuation train. But it was... And it had the same like, titling, like, yeah, it's evacuation train. So and I'm like, "Evacuation, I know what's that," and I just run through that thing.

46:11Jawad MirYou said that, there was this woman that fell and you didn't help her and you kept going. Obviously, you remember that. Do you s… ever feel guilty about that at the time or even now? Like, do you wonder what happened to her?

46:33HannahNo, I don't feel guilty. I just, it's more like I accept my nature, very egoistic. And it's not like she fell down and died. It's more like she was like standing up. But like in a everyday life you see something like this and you try to help. You…

46:56Jawad MirBut you can't

46:56Hannah... Even if I'm in a hurry to somewhere… ... I would like still like find like several minutes to help. But back then, that memory said we don't stop, we run.

47:09Jawad MirYeah. No, that's well explained. And I remember you mentioned to me when the, when you were on the train, there were parts that you had to go at night and you couldn't make any sound. If you wanna sort of talk about, a little bit about that how that experience was of trying to es… besides the washroom problem, besides the crowdedness, just from a safety standpoint and the sound and what they would do if there was sound and you're on a train. Trains make sounds.

47:42HannahWell, the human sounds are not that dangerous as a train sound, so we just like subconsciously understood that when the train stops, everyone wanted to get silent. And of course, animals or children were not on that side. Like, they wanted to make sound, so everyone was trying to calm them down. And, it also had the two parallel realities. One when we are traveling and it's daylight and as if everything is fine and people start to fight for food, for place, who stepped on someone's like feet, what's going on, why I took such a case and put it on stairs. It takes too much like space. So…

48:27Jawad MirAgain, the cat.

48:29HannahAnd the cat and the suitcase. Now, like two things. So, it was like exhausting to… We are like, we are not used to be that close, like physically.

48:43Jawad MirYeah.

48:43HannahSo it was like very, like funny, meaningless fights, like at all, like completely meaningless. And, the lady who run to this wagon after me, she immediately like, you know, she stepped in and she feels like, "Okay, I have to find a place," and I use aggression, and she chose me. And she said like, "Do you think you will be, like staying here in the best spot, young lady? No, you won't." And like, she like went into like, she just stepped in and goes to aggressive mode like with me, and I was like, "Oh my God, I did nothing." So, and it's funny that once she calm… calmed down, like and she said, "Oh, why are you like so upset? We have some food for you." So she proposed food, and she starts talking and sharing a really cute story how like she was going to Canada.

49:45HannahAnd she said, "I have a family there, like my sister, and she has a family, so I will go to them. And you know what I did? I bought this full..." And she shows me like the, huge purse. Like I don't know, like quite... As a purse, it's huge. And she says, "You know what's there? It's full packed with my like different, pills, because I know that they have crazy prices there. So I'm traveling to Canada with this suitcase of pills which I..."

50:20Jawad MirThat's funny.

50:21HannahI don't know if she was like flying there. I'm not sure…

50:26Jawad MirWell, that could be…

50:27Hannah... They'll let her in with that.

50:28Jawad MirYeah, that's the thing. Like I was gonna say the, 'cause certain medication, you know, there's certain laws and all that stuff. So I know if you go to Australia, when you're on the plane, when you get off the plane, when you are waiting for your carousel, they keep reminding you, "You can't bring this, you can't bring this, you can't bring this or you'll be fined," right? It's not like that in Canada, but yeah, if they go through your stuff, like if they see something, then they'll ask you like, "Why are you, why are you bringing it?" That's, that's quite funny. Did you have any arguments with anybody on the train, or somebody stepped on you, or somebody tried to fight with you, or you tried to fight with somebody out of frustration?

51:06HannahExcept of this lady who just didn't like me existing…

51:09Jawad MirNothing

51:10Hannah... And then she…

51:10Jawad MirYeah

51:10Hannah... Liked me existing, it was like quite nothing. I had a really interesting like, lag in a, brain because there was no place to sit pretty much, and I had to…

51:23Jawad MirYeah

51:23Hannah... Take my cat out of the box because he was shouting inside, and it was annoying like babies, and they were also starting like to shout. Like he's meowing and they are crying. That's what was happening. So for him not to meow, I had to put like, to keep him in my hand, but he never sits like in hands for more than 30 seconds, and I was there for 12 hours. So I was having a wrestling with a cat, but at least he was not like meowing. And at some moment I fall asleep, maybe for like two seconds, but it felt like a full night, of like really sweet dreams. And I wake up, and I don't see him in my hands, and I start shouting like, "Girls, where is my cat? What's going on? Where is he?" And they calm me down, and they said, "You put him in cage, and he is not crying." And I just like, because of the tiredness, I just forget like what's happening before I fall asleep.

52:27HannahMaybe I put them back in a cage, and I was already like u… unconscious. I just like did it, and then I stay the same like this. I sleep, and I'm like, "Okay, he's gone." And this like fear, only one second, but I was like already like frustrated because there is a big amount of stories when people were traveling with animals and they were losing them. They were running away, like whatever.

52:53HannahThey were trying to let them run a bit, and they just escaped, and no one wants to stop and to search for them. So I like, yeah. You know, he helped me to think like short, only about like him and how I'm like asleep.

53:11Jawad MirYeah.

53:11HannahNot asleep, not to have a bigger picture.

53:15Jawad MirMakes sense. Makes sense. And w… were there... When you were on the train at night, like in the, in the dark hours, was there ever danger of any, you, the train being heard by, and coming under threat in any way? Or was it a pretty smooth sailing?

53:40HannahNo one is announcing that. We are not warned that we are in danger. We're just taking a very crazy route instead of taking a straight one Kyiv to Lviv.

53:50Jawad MirOh, I see.

53:51HannahIt's a crazy like route going whatever, like, and no one knows where they take this route from, who says that they should like drive there and there, or when we should stop. But sometimes we were just like stopping for like two hours in darkness., so it's like to be in Ukraine now and back then, it's a nonstop threat. Nonstop. It's just like you never know where it hits.

54:24Jawad MirYeah. And then you get to Poland. Which city in Poland?

54:29HannahWarsaw, the capital.

54:30Jawad MirWar… you were in Warsaw. Okay, so you get to Warsaw. That, what was your feeling at the time?

54:40HannahI could not believe I'm safe. It's just as soon as I crossed the border and I saw different language… ... On signs, I was like, "Oh my God, now I won't be hit with missile." It's incredible feeling. I lived with that feeling all my life, and I was not that happy, and then I just, like, moved from that life threat, and no, that… that's happiness. So yeah, I was, I was very happy and safe and loose, like, immediately. Of course, it went, like, to different stages after realizing that I so quickly left my place and that I'm, like, still on the news every day and that I cry about every attack and about every victim, and it's like i… it's different stage. But at that moment, I was like, really happy...

55:38Jawad MirHm. And is Joseph still with you?

55:43HannahYes, he is. Like, today he's very polite and he's not showing, like, his back, backside to the camera, 'cause normally he does. Like, probably asleep.

55:57Jawad MirMaybe he knows you're talking behind ba… behind his back. What's, what's your... You know, just to wrap things up, the story that you told me, it's a very personal story, right? Like, there's no... What I loved about your story when I first heard it, and again, obviously there was new things that you mentioned that we didn't get to talk about initially, it's very personal. We don't really talk about politics that much, which is connected to it, but it's just extremely deeply rooted to who you are and what you went through and what you experienced. Ever thought of it turning into a screenplay or a book or a theater play or...?

56:44HannahI partly used this in a theater play. We had a performance here in Warsaw when we were showing it in Berlin. We were, like, we mixed up the real stories of, the actresses who were performing and from other people…

57:01Hannah... But just mixed everything up. So another actress was talking about my cat, and it's like the audience loved the cat story the most, because then we have…

57:11Jawad MirOf course

57:12Hannah... Q&A after the show, and everyone, "How's cat doing?" Like, "What's going on with him?" So it's very... And we had, like, this, you know, like, a part with a drunk guy trying to take his place, and we made it, like, as if audience has to vote, are they for cat or for the drunk guy to take…

57:34Jawad MirOh, nice

57:35Hannah... His seat. Yeah. Yeah. So the cat story somehow is, like, the most powerful because maybe it contains, love.

57:44Jawad MirHo… yeah, hope and love, yeah. You know what would've been really fascinating? Now I'm just going completely from a movie or a book standpoint or a story. If that drunken guy was right next to you on the train as well, right? I… I… I… Imagine that. If it was a movie, it would've, it would've been like that, for sure.

58:03HannahOh my God. Yeah. Oh, it's, it's, it's very obvious I talk to a director. You immediately pick up the best spot. Actually, yes, like, it would be great because it would be very unexpected. I didn't mention, but in that evacuation train, mostly, like, there were no men.

58:23Jawad MirOh, this is…

58:23HannahBecause everyone understands men are not allowed out of the country. They are obliged to, like, for this military purpose. And m… most of people are children and women. So if the drunk guy gets in that place, it would be like, you know, a very powerful female attack on him and especially him being drunk, it could be, like, tough for the guy. It's like, of course, no competition with my cat. He would be, like, pushed out from that place. But on a subway station, he had his rights.

59:01Jawad MirAmazing. Well, thank you so much, Hanna. It was such a fascinating story, again, to rehear it, but also with new stuff. And which is why I decided to a… ask you to talk about this, because you're a great storyteller, and that's very important. And, you know, again, it's one thing to be in the industry, but the way you choose your words and the way you describe everything, it's so visualizing that you feel like you're there. So thank you so much for sharing your personal story and putting your vulnerability out there. I appreciate it.

59:36HannahThank you so much for having me. It's a great pleasure to share with your bigger audience such a story. I hope I did not bore people too much and

59:49Jawad MirNo, you didn't. It's a great story. It's a great story, which is, I don't even know how we decided to talk about this when we met, because it just, yeah, it's, it's a gr… it's, it's a, it's a great story of human spirit and the real… the realness of w… the, you know... You didn't, didn't shy away from calling yourself crazy. I'm not saying you're crazy, but, you know, you just kind of put yourself out there, which is what makes us connect to you more and th… which is why I connected to your story way more than I probably would have been if you said, "No, I was a perfect human being, XYZ." But thank you so much.

1:00:26HannahThank you so much. I wish, I wish this story just makes at least someone hug their cat or baby or husband or wife or sister or brother or mommy or daddy, like…

1:00:44Jawad MirOr a d… or a drunk guy.

1:00:47HannahYeah. He deserves it. Even he deserves it.

1:00:52Jawad MirYeah, no, it's

1:00:54HannahThank you so much.

1:00:54Jawad MirNo, thank you. Thank you so much. We'll be in touch, I'm sure. All right. Thank you so much, Hanna. Have a good one. Take care. Bye-bye.

1:01:03HannahTake care. Bye.