'War of the Worlds', Film Historian, James Clarke

0:00James ClarkeThat's probably the sequence from the film that had stayed with me the most vividly, was that entire almost mini movie within the feature where Ray and Rachel are with Tim Robbins' character in the cellar, and that's where the movie, I think, is where it's mostly, is the most horror movie it can be, actually.

0:21James ClarkeThat's where I think…

0:22Jawad MirAgreed

0:22James Clarke... Not because of, not the aliens, but because of Tim Robbins' behavior. You know, I mean, it was, it was all of those things. It was interesting to see the film again yesterday and go, "Oh, yes, that sequence, that entire 20 minutes maybe, was as evocative to me watching it yesterday as it was when I first saw it at the cinema."

0:46Jawad MirWelcome back, everyone, to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast, the making of stories. I'm your host Jawad Mir. Today my guest is author James Clark, who's written several books, including one on Steven Spielberg in the early 2000s, and he's here to talk about 20 years to Steven Spielberg's War of the Worlds, starring Tom Cruise, Dakota Fanning, and Tim Robbins. We talked about the film itself. We talked about, a bit about Jaws, because it's been 50 years to Jaws. We talked a little bit about Jurassic Park, with Jurassic World coming up, but mainly about War of the Worlds, and it was a really cool conversation as we digged d… deep into what make the film work in a lot of ways, certainly some scenes, visual effects, the characters and all that. But without further ado, here is my conversation with author James Clark, reflecting 20 years to Steven Spielberg's War of the Worlds. War of the Worlds, which I think came out on June 29th, 2005, I would guess.

1:38James ClarkeYeah. Yeah.

1:38Jawad MirBut in three days from now, it's the 50th anniversary of Jaws

1:43James ClarkeIt's very cool

1:44Jawad Mir... Which is, which is crazy to even think about that it's been that long.

1:49James ClarkeHalf a century. I mean, I was only three when Jaws was released, so, all I can say if I may, is that the first time I ever saw Jaws was on the TV screen, not the movie screen, and I was…

2:03Jawad MirSame here

2:03James Clarke... I was probably about 16, actually. Not e… not even a young teenager. I was right in the middle of being a teen, and I remember watching it with my brother on kind of on late night, a late night broadcast o… of the movie. And of course, I had read everything there was about it at that point in, I don't know, the late 1980s, and just was, well, just was truly amazed. And then I think I finally got to see it on the big screen at the most three years later, being very specific about it for you.

2:35Jawad MirYeah.

2:35James ClarkeWas quite involved in our university film society, which was entirely run by the students or by a group of students. And I remember, this was really cool actually, Jawad, I don't know whether I just grabbed the opportunity or created it for myself, but we did a Steven Spielberg movie season. And I'm talking about 1991, so I'm talking about, in a sense, relatively early days, relatively speaking.

3:02Jawad MirYeah.

3:03James ClarkeAnd I remember we screened Jaws as part of that, and so that was my chance to see it on the big screen. But I'm, you know, I'm going back 34 years ago. I can't believe it.

3:14Jawad MirYeah

3:14James Clarke... But what a film. It's, yeah, I don't know. I mean…

3:18Jawad MirWell, it is an incredible piece of cinema because for me, I don't remember what it was. I just came from the hospital in the early '80s. I don't know if it was '82, '83, or '84. And I had some, I, some sort of surgery. I don't, I don't recall what it was, but basically, you know, I had to go through a surgery for, it wasn't anything serious, but for about, you know, maybe couple of hours, and I came home and I was still recovering, and I was Band-Aid, you know, on my leg and everything. And, my brothers were watching Jaws, and the idea of being just coming from the hospital, going through the surgery, you know, where you see blood and everything, and then you're watching a shark movie, I mean, that was an in… I still remember that one moment where I was holding my leg, and I remember, I think we had paused the film, and I went to the bathroom, and I remember thinking, "Oh my God, you know, shark," right?

4:24Jawad MirAnd I never saw it on the big screen until last year or two years ago when it came out, in the movie theaters.

4:31James ClarkeYeah.

4:31Jawad MirAnd it was phenomenal experience. I mean, I've seen it so many times, just like everybody else has, and it's so crazy that how it's become such a worldwide since, I mean, they're doing a whole event at, Martha Vineyard, right?

4:48James ClarkeThey are. They are

4:49Jawad Mir... This year. 50th anni… 50th anniversary, and there's a documentary coming out, and yeah, so much…

4:53James ClarkeWell, it's interesting that, it's interesting that, Jawad, because of course, if like me, I'm assuming you did, I'm pretty sure you would've done, you know, I remember buying one of, if not the first DVD release of Jaws that came with a really lovely documentary at that point…

5:09James Clarke... When we were probably about 20 years into its anniversary…

5:13Jawad MirYeah

5:13James Clarke... You know, sort of n… mid 1990s. And I r… and I think I've still got it, actually, but… ... You know, I mean…

5:20Jawad MirSorry, I'm just gonna pull it up right here.

5:22James ClarkeIt'll be, no, not at all. It'll be, interesting to see whether the, that's the one.

5:28Jawad MirYeah.

5:28James ClarkeWow, look at that.

5:30Jawad MirAmazing.

5:31James ClarkeAmazing. It'll, you know, it'd be interesting to see, whether the new documentary offers up some, even now, some insights or recollections that have never made it to the record before. But I mean, I think it was implicit in what you just said, I suppose, in a way, Jawad, which is that with Jaws specifically, although there are obviously other films in his filmography, my goodness, but it's so familiar. It's so familiar that you probably feel like you've seen it even if actually the fact is you never have. You know, I mean, it's… It's such a frame of reference, isn't it? And the, obviously the poster, the original poster, the music, certain shots, certain mo… I mean, it's so just in the mix, in a, in a very potent way really. You know, it's... But I think what fascinates me, we may have spoken about this when we had our previous conversation, is, we could talk about this all day, but, you know, is how much more attention is paid now finally after some years of it not being the case, I think, in a way.

6:36James ClarkeBut just the storytelling, just literally, you know, the shot for shot storytelling. You know, the blocking, the camera movement. Things that I think, at the risk of sounding, pompous or pretentious, the very things I think some people were really clued into from day one with Spielberg's movies. But which a lot of people didn't, they just sort, they sort of saw the genre and they saw the fantasy of it or the escapism of it, however you wanna describe it. But what they didn't seem to see was like, yeah, but look how he's framed that shot, or look how he's, you know, covered that action. I mean, things which you will be familiar with because it's something you've always cared about. I feel like I've always cared about it. And it's just interesting with something like Jaws, 'cause you certainly see that in relation to the movie now, isn't just, oh, it's a scary movie and the music's great, for example, which it is. But just a real sense of, yeah, but look how he gets from here to here in a scene or... I mean, there's, I saw something not so long ago online inevitably, and it was just a little thing about a long take for the scene where they're on the ferry boat going across, and he's got the mayor on the boat, on the ferry, and, you know, who's in the foreground, who's in the background, and just that beautiful...

7:47James ClarkeAnd it is beautiful I think, just that choreography really. And I think that with something like West Side Story, which I really love that film actually a great deal. I think that really, I mean, just really reminded audiences of just like, look at what he can do with that choreography. That's the only word to use really, you know? You know, so whether you've got Jaws down here on the timeline or West… West Side Story way up here, just that.

8:14Jawad MirYeah. No, I agree, and I think, in terms of choreography, like if you look at even Duel… ... Right? I mean, the film is about just what? A few people? Like, there's only mainly like one or two pr… you know…

8:26James ClarkeYeah

8:26Jawad Mir... There's a protagonist, there's an antagonist, and there's some extras. And especially being in the car, and we're, I know we're supposed to talk about War of the Worlds, and we'll get to that in a second, but, he was pushed by the studio executives just to shoot it with a screen in the background, right? Which is, which was the way they did it back then. And he pushed for, "No, it has to be in actual locations." And how there's so many similarities if you study Jaws, Duel, Jurassic Park, and War of the Worlds, right? I mean, there's all the other film, films too that he's done, but those four, you know, there is, there is protagonist and antagon… man versus man versus animal, right? Then man versus, dinosaurs, man versus machine, which is aliens. And they are so, they're, if you watch them one after the other, you will see how similar they are in terms of the way the shots are done, the blocking, the arc, and the suspense and the intensity.

9:28Jawad MirAnd that's, and you're right because Jaws for me was, you know, the music, the shark element and all that for the longest time. I think maybe about 15 years ago I started realizing the blocking part, and it's especially the scenes when he's with his family, Roy Scheider's character in the beginning and how that's executed, and the first, shark attack at the beach, how that's pulled off, and especially the one that you're talking about, the mayor. I mean, any other director would've been moving the camera or cutting back and forth, but what he did was he used the movement of the ship as the moving, you know, the motion in the shot, and that pretty much is as simple as it can get. Like, why make it complicated? But that's Spielberg for you.

10:15James ClarkeJust, I don't know, I mean, watching, I don't know whether this is the moment to segue to War of the Worlds or to start it more…

10:20Jawad MirSure

10:20James Clarke... More formal, but, you know, what, I watched it again yesterday for the purposes of our conversation today, and the first thing to say is I had not seen War of the Worlds in quite some time. And, I saw it at the cinema when it was released in the summer of 2005, and, I, what really hit me was how many shots I remembered. Specific, not, I didn't remember any lines of dialogue, but how many images, that's the key word, isn't it? How many images I remembered, not because I'd seen them in Cinefx or Starlog Magazine or whatever, but, on my, on my shelf here or whatever, but, just in here. And I thought that was quite, I just thought that was very telling as to how visually powerful War of the Worlds is. And also, and this is more of a sort of narrative propulsion thing, issue, point to make, how it just gets going straight away. It does not hang. It's a very lean film, I think. I mean, it comes in at just under two hours, I think.

11:22James ClarkeAnd it's a v… it, and I don't know, I have to confess, I don't know how m… how much was not, didn't make it to the final…

11:30Jawad MirBut, yeah

11:31James Clarke... Cut. You may know. But, it's, it's so lean actually, you know? I mean, it really doesn't mess around at all. And, I just, I mean, and you've already touched on it, Jawa, talking about, you know, Jurassic Park and Duel also. You know, it's a monster movie. It's a film about crowds of people panicking in a, I mean in a very literal way to some degree. But the thing that really struck me was how much of a horror film it is actually, you know? I mean, yes, you go, okay, science fiction, it's H.G. Wells. It's a, it is about a certain technology having an impact on humankind. But, you know, watching it… Within the last 24 hours, it's not even been 24 hours since I saw it afresh, I just thought, wow, I've... It's such a horror film

12:24Jawad MirYeah. It is, and I mean, I had one or two problems with it, which we'll come to later, but overall, the i… for me, the biggest thing was, the... You know, Tom Cruise is such a big star, even at that time. And if you, if since you watched it yesterday, if you watch it very carefully, may… i… the opening shot of Tom Cruise being, like, a blue collar worker and then having a fam… going to his home and meeting his ex-wife, it completely takes away the fact that this guy is Tom Cruise, right? He just becomes... He's such a vulnerable character in that film, and he pulls it... Like, you can't tell that's Tom Cruise.

13:08James ClarkeI…

13:09Jawad MirNo matter how many, like, times you watch that

13:12James Clarke... I, it's interesting you say that. I made a, I made some notes in my, being very, what's the word, school boyish and g… good student, I made some notes for the purposes of today, and one of the notes I made to myself, which I've got in front of me on my screen, and I've just written, "Cruise is really good at portraying frayed characters, just like in Jerry Maguire."

13:34James ClarkeThough Jerry Maguire is a long way away from War of the Worlds, although they have the same cinematographer in Janusz Kaminski, of course.

13:40Jawad MirYep.

13:40James ClarkeBut you know, Jerry Maguire is a romantic comedy essentially, but in that film, and I would certainly encourage people to watch it if they've never seen it, he's really fabulous, especially in that first half hour, at playing this guy who is completely at his wit's end. It's within the context of a comedy, so it's got a certain tone and pitch to it. But in that scene or that sequence when, Ray and, Robbie, and Rachel arrive at his former wife's house in the suburbs and it's all very beautiful and well-appointed, and he's in the kitchen trying to make them some sandwiches, and that's the moment I wrote this note down just for my reference. It is absolutely brilliant. That is, what a brilliant performance, and it's, it's everything that you have just described. You know, this is not Tom Cruise in Maverick mode or Cole Trickle mode from Days of Thunder or whatever. You know, this is a guy who's completely falling apart right in front of your eyes, and it's…

14:39Jawad MirYeah. It is, and then it's, it's just one of those things with this film is that, you know, we're talking about horror. I think for me, this, the, there was two scenes, I mean, there's so many, which are actually full of suspense. You know, there's tension and all that, but there's two scenes that really to me for a Spielberg film, to have, not that he has never had it before, he has, but the way he did it that when they get to the restaurant after the escape and there's people swarming the car and how that plays out, I mean, it's like... And that is completely accurate because when shit hits the fan and people have to survive, they will do, if not that, maybe much worse things, all of us, including me and you. And then, the scene which was never shown but you hear the sound with, Tim Robbins and Tom Cruise…

15:41James ClarkeYeah

15:41Jawad Mir... You know, that is like, I think that's one of the most brilliant scenes in cinema, and you see a little girl just reacting to it.

15:51James ClarkeThat's, I mean, just to jump, just to stay with that for a moment, Joe, I mean, the first point you make about that sense of kind of mob chaos and complete collective terror, I mean, the great thing about that scene, of course, in the, in the pouring rain and the car and, you know, you could pull it out of the film and say to somebody, "What genre is this from?" You, it's got nothing to do with science fiction. I mean that in the best way. It's just, it's just very good at capturing, people in a state of complete crisis really. But just to come back to the, to the other point you make about the Tim Robbins character, again, watching this, it was interesting, watching it again yesterday, as I say, for the first time in at least half a decade, I have to say, that's probably the sequence from the film that had stayed with me the most vividly was that entire almost mini movie within the feature where Ray and Rachel are with Tim Robbins' character in the cellar, and that's where the movie, I think, is where it's mostly, is the most horror movie it can be actually.

16:52James ClarkeThat's how it felt to me.

16:53Jawad MirAgreed.

16:54James ClarkeNot because, not the aliens, but because of Tim Robbins' behavior. You know what I mean? It was, it's all of those things. And, you know, the, you know, the very first shot that introduces us to him, which I think is the silhouette of his arm raised with the rifle in it.

17:06Jawad MirYeah.

17:07James ClarkeI mean, that's the first shot of him and the introduction to him. But the lighting in it, I mean, it just obeys in the best way, you know, all of the conventions, if you like, of a horror movie aesthetic, you know. Apart, yes, it's underground, so that kind of is not unfamiliar, but just that, you know, low-key lighting and just the shadow, I mean, just all the obvious things in a way. But it was interesting to see the film again yesterday and go, oh yes, that sequence, that entire, was it 20 minutes maybe? Maybe…

17:37Jawad MirProbably, yeah. Yeah

17:38James Clarke... I mean, it's quite a chunk of the film in a sense, was as evocative to me watching it yesterday as it was when I first saw it at the cinema, you know. Which was…

17:51Jawad MirYeah

17:51James Clarke... You know.

17:53Jawad MirAnd what's amazing about that, I mean, I saw it la… maybe two or three months ago. I re-watched it. I was flying. I watched it on my, on a, on the plane on my laptop, and that sequence, if my memory serves me right, doesn't cut away to anything else.

18:09James ClarkeNo, it doesn't.

18:09Jawad MirIt's that, right? You're, you're literally there through, and that's what's so brilliant about it. If you really think about it, if it cuts away… To even a small scene or some, you know, alien attacking outside, it takes you away from that, those three characters', you know, fears and tribulations. And again, yeah, I mean, that sequence itself is like a short film, right? It's

18:35James ClarkeIt's really, honestly it did it. When I saw it at the cinema, 2005, it, that's how it felt to me. I thought what a, what... I, and I sort of just thought, "Wow, what a cool thing." I mean, obviously every feature film is made up in a sense of lots of shorter films pieced together in a hopefully a very coherent way. But this particular sequence in this particular film is, I think if someone said to me, "Show me a..." I'm sort of surprising myself by saying this in a way, but it's like if someone said to me, "Show me a, you know, show me a sequence from a Steven Spielberg movie that just really gives you a flavor of what he's about." It could actually show them that because as you know, and I… I'm sure lots of other folks out there would also recognize and enjoy, you know, the horror film aesthetic and style and feeling and mood and the ideas that are in there in a horror film, obviously they're strung right through his movies actually, you know, certainly as a director. So I, that was, that really, it really struck afresh yesterday watching it.

19:39James ClarkeI was like, "This is, this is a horror film." I would almost think of it more as a horror film than a science fiction movie actually in a sense, you know? And yeah, I just really, I mean, I enjoyed it. I didn't watch it and go, "Oh, it's not as strong as I remembered it, or it's not as enjoyable." And it is enjoyable, but my goodness, me, Jared, I mean, something to say, again, I've, I've got it in my notes here, is how bleak it is really. I mean, obviously what's happening is bleak, but it doesn't shy away from depicting the bleakness of it. And I don't even mean the ferry scene where the tripod upends the ferry and I don't even mean that. I mean, that's, oh gosh, dare I say it, you could almost not include that scene and it, and the…

20:26James Clarke... But, you know, obviously it's a moment of huge visual spectacle. But you know, and what I'm really talking about are images like the clothes falling through the night sky.

20:37Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

20:38James ClarkeVery, I suppose perhaps a very evocative one. Obviously the images in that, in that just, in that completely brilliant sequence right up at the start when they first discover the tripod because it comes up out of the ground. I mean, that is so astonishing that the s… again, the storytelling of that, the anticipation. I mean, yes, it is kind of dazzling when it finally erupts from underground, but that four or five minutes prior to that is, I think, as good as actually the anticipation to see the T-Rex in the rain when it breaks through the fence. I mean, it's got that sense of, you know, incoming threat and the, imminent threat and you, and just how he teases it out really. I mean, it's just so wonderful. And I re…

21:24Jawad MirIt is

21:24James Clarke... And I remembered that first, revelation of the tripods being a favorite moment from the, probably that and the cellar sequence for me were the two big moments actually. And just dazzling really.

21:40Jawad MirYeah. No, I couldn't agree with you more. And what's so incredible about, that year is very, similar to, the year 1993 when Jurassic Park and Schindler's List came out in the same year. And this year in 2005, War of the Worlds and Munich came out the same year. And it was post, you know, the Iraq War and everything, and if you, there's a scene, there's a dialogue in War of the Worlds, which I don't know if it's still, if it was in the version that I saw, because you saw it recently, but I remember it was in definitely in the version that was shown originally. It may very well still be in there. Tim Robbins' character says, "All occupations end." Right? That's, there's a, there's a small segment of line in that. And obviously the film was more about like an aliens invading Earth, and it could be metaphorically used in any context, especially in, at that time, and I would say even now, right, with what's going on in the world.

22:47Jawad MirAnd for him to make Munich, which is something more or less preoccupation of a, you know, of what's going on right now, and to have those two similar films about similar themes, but one being science fiction/horror and entertaining and the other being, you know, pulled out from history and presented in a, in a similar fashion. And there's a line of occupation in that film too. And I just thought that was fascinating, that how he uses themes, same themes, and just presents them in two different genres in one year.

23:26James ClarkeIt's, I don't know, he's just, I don't know. I mean, I could wax lyrical forever about this as you know. But watching the film yesterday, it, you know, it's so explicit that it's addressing those certainly the very immediate moment back in 2005 with everything that had happened in the previous several years, and the point's been made by others, not by me, but I am making it, which is that actually if you put The Terminal, War of the Worlds, and Munich together, you get this informal trilogy all within the space of 18 months at the movies amazingly. You get this informal trilogy, even if we see that in hindsight, but I think it was actually fairly tangible while they, each of those movies was being released. But it was about America and in fact a more international community as well. But it was about all of the things you've just talked about, and you actually get them in the, and so you actually end up with them in the form of a, of a comedy drama with The Terminal…... Science fiction horror movie and a, I mean, I always think about Munich as a thriller of course, because I think it's, that's a fair description.

24:31Jawad MirYeah.

24:32James ClarkeAlthough what it also has in it, and perhaps not to talk about Munich so much today, perhaps there's another conversation another day for that, but I mean, Munich has this, you know, that character of Avner is in such a state of crisis. Again, I mean, that's what drama's about is about crisis. But as you say, with War of the Worlds, to be able to... And that's the beauty of science fiction certainly, although any genre, is that you can give everything a metaphor. You know, you don't have to, you don't have to deal with it head-on in a sort of more literal way. And of course watching it yesterday, of course I'm watching it in a post-COVID world. I mean, so you know, what did we know in 2005? But to watch it now with our memory of everything that unfolded five years ago, which now seems so long ago to me at least, my gosh, you know, you just kind of go, "Oh, goodness me, this is..." Even if you had no, even if you watched... Sorry, let me start again. Even if you watched War of the Worlds for the first time tomorrow with your memory of the COVID experience, if I can put it that way, but with no knowledge or experience of 25 years ago or 20 years ago in terms of, you know, of things that were going on, isn't that fascinating?

25:47James ClarkeI mean, stories do that all the time. They get reinvented and they take on new relevance and meaning for people at their moment in time. I mean, that's, Shakespeare plays do it all the time, you know?

25:58Jawad MirYeah.

25:58James ClarkeHe may have been writing about life in Elizabethan England, but actually it's still got something to say in 2025. So, I, there was that really hit home yesterday, was just that sheer resonance of it now 20 years later in different ways. But just how, I don't know, just shot for shot. I mean, there's a shot right up at the front when he's playing baseball with Robbie in the back garden.

26:27James ClarkeAnd the ball goes through the window, and then there's just a... And it was interesting 'cause I remembered the shot, and the shot then just frames Ray in the, in the curtain.

26:35Jawad MirIn the broken glass, yeah.

26:37James ClarkeWhich immediately reminded me of the, I mean, there are lots of examples I think, aren't there? There must be of course, but there are. But it reminded me of the shot of the jaw, literally the jaws of a sho… a shark, and the camera pushing through them, I guess in Quint's

26:54James Clarke... Hut. But you know, all of those things, just all of those really lovely, elegant filmmaking devices, that's a bit of a cold way to put it, isn't it? But just, you know, frames within frames, and we talked about the blocking a little bit already.

27:08Jawad MirYeah.

27:08James ClarkeBut also I think as well, just to stay with it for a moment more, you know, we were talking about, I said really what, you know, we were talking about is the kind of political, not with the, not, I don't mean party political, but you know, the political, resonance of the film and, you know, touching on things that people were certainly very aware of in 2005. But again, you know, the image of the bodies being, you know, zapped by the tripods and just the ash falling and so on, I mean, I remi… I don't want to sound trite about it 'cause I really don't want to be trite about it, but it immediately reminded me of the scene in Schindler's List when Oskar comes out of the factory at a certain point and sees the ash gathering on the wheel arch of the car, and then, you know, then, and then we go from there and we understand what's happening. So I'm not saying that's conscious decision on the filmmaker's part to go, "Oh, I need to repeat that moment."

28:01James ClarkeBut you as the audience, you've got, you know, any number of other films in your, in your reference bank, if you like, and you know, it does, it does all kind of come together in that way. And the other thing that really caught me as well yesterday, Jared, as well, just to say if I may, was just the film was shot in the autumn, as people will, may well remember. It was shot very quickly for such a large project between sort of October, November 2004 and into the new year of 2005. But my goodness me, that wintry, autumnal atmosphere, which isn't in a sense present all the way through the film, but there are certainly any number of shots that are clearly filmed in a kind of autumnal light, which of course you can make that look very beautiful. I mean, if you look at, you know, Clint Eastwood's film Unforgiven, they make a real virtue of the autumn sunlight. But that autumnal and certainly wintry light and atmosphere…

28:56Jawad MirAdds a…

28:56James Clarke... It's there. You know, there's a, there's a shot of, the survivors or people wanting to survive, you know, marching or walking across a kind of, I guess, a piece of farmland. It's certainly rural. You know, in a sense of almost like these refugees, you know, just crossing the lands, like suddenly…

29:13Jawad MirYeah

29:15James Clarke... You know.

29:16Jawad Mir100%, you know, and I… You talked about Terminal and the trilogy, so I'll go beyond that. I never thought about Terminal as sort of part of that. But if you look at, when did Terminal come out? 2006 or '7? I think 2006.

29:31James Clarke2004 actually. Summer 2004.

29:32Jawad MirWas it four?

29:33James ClarkeYeah, incredible.

29:34Jawad MirOkay. So you look at AI. You look at Minority Report, you look at Terminal, you look at War of the Worlds, and you look at Munich. Five years or six years. And you look at the themes of those movies, and you look at where we are now.

29:52Jawad MirAI.

29:53James ClarkeYeah.

29:53Jawad MirImmigration.

29:55James ClarkeYeah.

29:55Jawad MirOccupation, wars, surveillance.

30:00James ClarkeYes. With Minority Report, yeah.

30:02Jawad MirRight?

30:03James ClarkeYeah.

30:03Jawad MirI mean, go figure, like, you know, when we were watching all these movies in the early 2000, we probably in our never thought this would even be even possible in our lifetime or even our kids' lifetime, but we are living all of it right now. And you talked about that refugee scene, in War of the Worlds. So did I ever tell you about my trip to the set of the War of the Worlds?

30:28James ClarkeNo, not at all.

30:31Jawad MirWhen the Super Bowl trailer dropped…

30:34James ClarkeYeah

30:34Jawad Mir... Or supposed to drop for The War of the Worlds, when they first show the bridge sequence…

30:38James ClarkeYeah, I remember. Yeah

30:39Jawad Mir... I don't remember how, somehow for DreamWorks' fan site, I ended up getting the T… the Super Bowl spot before it was even broadcasted. So obviously uploaded it, server crashed and everything, and then I get an email from Paramount legal department and, you know, just the normal stuff. And then I get approached by the Paramount publicity, because I think w… at that time I never thought about it, but now looking back at it, obviously, you know, you're mature and you realize they kind of instead of like, you know, torching me or trying to put me down, they brought... They, you know, they started talking to me just to make sure that I don't do anything again.

31:17James ClarkeYeah.

31:18Jawad MirAnd then they invited me, to Paramount's office, and they wanted to take me to War of the Worlds set where that scene was, the refugee scene.

31:27James ClarkeAh, okay. Yeah.

31:28Jawad MirSo I remember I'd, w… I went with the, one of the Paramount's publicity, agents to s… I think it was in somewhere past Santa Monica. And I was supposed to interview Spielberg. That's why we were going. I was supposed to interview him, and that same night I had a red-eye flight, and then we waited, and we waited, and we waited, and then I was told that he's not available. He's busy. Obviously he's shooting a film, right? And, but that I remember, that whole sequence of the military trucks going up the hill and Robbie's…

32:03James ClarkeRight. Yeah

32:03Jawad Mir... That was, that was there. But that was such an incredible experience that I'll never forget because just being on a film set of that scale… ... Especially that kind of a scene. It was probably March, April, I think. And there was…

32:18James ClarkeOh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, there you go.

32:19Jawad MirYeah.

32:19James ClarkeYeah, right up the end of the winter.

32:21Jawad MirYeah.

32:21James ClarkeI think that was…

32:23Jawad MirYeah

32:23James Clarke... I mean, that's sort of amazing. I didn't know that, and w… you know, we… it's, that's a great, story to tell. But I think it really, as I say, you know, it adds to a certain sense of... There's just a real sense of sorrow all the way through the film. That was one of the words I, again, put down in my notes for the, our conversation today. It, yes, the film has moments of horror and the horrific, but there is just this sense of sorrow. There's the sorrow of his family having fallen apart, which that's, that's a very, you know, relate…

32:54Jawad MirWell, it's the fact that you mentioned it, I just realized something. Maybe it was always there. The world is falling apart around him, and he's trying to keep his family together, which has already fallen apart.

33:05James ClarkeYeah, indeed. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

33:07Jawad MirThat's, that's the film right there.

33:09James ClarkeAbsolutely. It is, yeah. And so it's a real s… if you say sadness, I think that sounds a bit too sentimental, but I think to use the word sorrow, not to get too sort of heavy-handed about it, but it just really got me. And the other thing as well, just to... Hang on. I sort of feel like I'm rattling off just little notes.

33:23Jawad MirNo, you're fine. You're fine.

33:25James ClarkeThere's a really wonderful moment early on, again, early on before we even see a tripod. In fact, that's a lie. I correct myself now. We've seen the first tripod because it's, comes after the, I think it comes after. Yeah. It's at the beginning when he's with, his kiddies in his house there under the bridge

33:45Jawad MirYeah. That's before, that's before the tripod.

33:47James ClarkeBefore, isn't it? That's all before. You forgive me…

33:48Jawad MirYeah

33:49James Clarke... I've completely forgotten the story order. But there's the most brilliant moment, isn't there? A little scene where Rachel gets a splinter on, in her finger, and that's the whole…

33:56Jawad MirYeah

33:56James Clarke... F… the whole film is summed up in that.

33:58Jawad MirYeah. True. You're right. You're right.

33:59James ClarkeI mean, I'm not even, I'm not gonna say anything more than that, but the whole film is summed up in that moment. So what seems like a completely, innocuous, I'm not gonna say meaningless, clearly it's not, but it's like everything sh… you hope everything in a movie is there for a very particular reason some way, some how. But that scene, I never, I never forgot that scene actually in the 20 years since I saw it. It's like there's the whole film in that one exchange with her telling her dad that she's got a splinter in her finger. I'm, I'm not gonna elaborate 'cause I don't think I need to, but it's really,... I d… I love that when you, there's something very mundane actually when you either in the moment of seeing it or at some point thereafter, and Spielberg is very good I think at bringing that to bear. You know, it then takes on this whole other power and you're just like, "Oh, wow, I thought he was just, I thought she just had a splinter in her finger." You know, it's like it's got this whole other thing to it. And so I just... How to describe it? It's funny, I always think it's a film that's slightly overlooked in his filmography actually.

35:03Jawad MirI agree, and I was talking to one of my buddies the other day, and he was talking about the, how the entire film was ruined for him because of the way it ended, and which is one of the things that I wanna talk about. We talk about all these great things, and for me, I was kind of, I still remember the moment that we were watch… when I was watching in the, at Chinese Man's theater in LA, is that scene came up when Robbie's already there at the end with his mom, and considering the last time we saw him was going into this gigantic explosion…

35:37James ClarkeYeah

35:38Jawad Mir... I wish they could've done two things. Maybe they did. I don't know. Maybe had some sort of a scene in between which shows that he was able to escape and how, or we lost him, which is not Spielberg way of ending film, right?

35:54James ClarkeSo, yeah. I mean…

35:55Jawad MirThat was, that was the part that disappointed me the most, and that's the part sometimes when I'm talk… thinking about the film as a whole, it's fantastic, and then I realize that ending. I'm like, "Ah, I wish they had done a little bit more." But what did you think about that?

36:08James ClarkeWell, it's inter… 'cause I was ver… I was, I had a very clear memory of that being a note of, oh, I'd say maybe frustration is a way to put it. I mean, that was a, I remember that being a thing at the time, people going, "Well, how did Bob, Robbie get from here to here safe and sound?" And you know, what, how does it, how should it end? So I suppose in a sense my viewing of it yesterday in a sense maybe was sort of, filtered through that recollection of it. I mean, the thing I…

36:37James Clarke... The thing that… Ooh, I don't know, maybe I'm just too easy-going about things. But I mean, it didn't matter to me too much that there wasn't a connective scene or sort of explanation or whatever. But what I was reminded of is how, in a s… in a sense, how quickly the film finishes. You know, when you're watching a movie, a… as with a piece of music, certainly, and music's a good comparison…

37:00Jawad MirYeah

37:00James Clarke... You can, you can kind of tell when it's winding down. There's something about more often than not you, there's so… whatever the genre of music is, you get the feeling of, "Okay, we're winding down now." And I mean that really if it's something you've never heard before, and certainly the same is true of movies. And I'd watch… when I watched this, I thought, "I wonder if it..." I kind of thought, "Gosh, it end, it ends quite abruptly." There isn't a kind of, you know, they realize the birds are saving the day…

37:28Jawad MirYeah

37:28James Clarke... All that, and then we cut to the street, and he's walking up the street, and then we, and then the f… and then we're out of there. The film is done. I mean, in one sense, I suppose it's quite admirable 'cause it's like, "Well, that's the story. There it is." It's very lean and, you know, doesn't hang around in any, at any point in the proceedings. I had forgotten, I don't think I've misremembered this, but is the very last shot that we see of Tom Cruise him hugging Robbie? I think it is. I think that's the last shot, isn't it? Is, that's the last shot of him as a character in this whole…

37:57Jawad MirOf him, of him, yeah, not the film, but of him.

38:00James ClarkeNo, not of, no, of the film, but we then cut to the tree, and we go down the street.

38:04Jawad MirThe trees, yes.

38:06James ClarkeNice distinction. I like that. But I had in my mind, again, this shows, this happens a lot, I think, doesn't it? In my mind, I had created an additional shot, which was that we saw Ray reunited with Robbie, and I had then concocted over time an additional shot which then shows Robbie walking away down the street by himself, but that is just my imagination at work because what I ended up doing, and I, and I mean that, and this is sincerely meant, I had started thinking about The Searchers, the John Ford film, and, Ethan Hunt, sorry, Ethan Edwards. Ethan Hunt, oh my gosh, Ethan Hunt is in the Mission Impossible film. Ethan Edwards, oh boy, portrayed by John Wayne has, you know, has saved the day. I don't wanna spoil the film too much 'cause people may want to watch it, and I would certainly recommend that they do, if I may. But I had actually conflated the ending of The Searchers with the ending of War of the Worlds in the sense that it was both have a family, in a sense, coming back together in some shape or form.

39:09James ClarkeBut then I'd got this thing in my mind which I'd stolen from The Searchers, which is that Ray, sorry, that Rachel and Robbie and their mum are back together again, starting their new life, if you like, after the crisis of the invasion, and Ray has no place in that, and so he ha… he walks off. But you, that's, you don't ever see that. All you see is him embracing his son.

39:33Jawad MirYeah.

39:34James ClarkeI just, I was... It made me laugh yesterday about my own ridiculousness really, thinking, "Oh, I had, I had created an additional shot where we see Ray walking off down the street by himself as a nod to the ending of The Searchers."

39:50Jawad MirIt's interesting you mention that because to me, one of the things that I loved about the ending, aside from the pa… the part that I didn't like…

39:57James ClarkeYes

39:57Jawad Mir... Is that had it been some other director, they would've had, I forget, so To… Ray's ca… wife, character, they would've had in the film maybe how they're surviving.

40:15James ClarkeYeah.

40:15Jawad MirHis…

40:16James ClarkeYeah.

40:16Jawad MirHer and her new husband, and some other director would've been probably like that the guy died, and then they reunite at the end, or the writer would've done that, but they didn't do that, right? Which was fantastic. And another scene that I thought it's interesting how over time your perception changes or adds up to it, the scene where Robbie wants to go and fight…

40:40Jawad Mir... And he's on the ground, and Tom, you know, Ray is saying, "You don't have to. You don't have to." So at the time, m… m… my interpretation, which is still valid today, but I have another add-on to it, was that how when you're, when you're invaded, how young people react to that, right? As crazy as it is, but for you it's like, it's about, like, survi… protecting your people or your land or whatever that is, and that to me was the interpretation and only interpretation at the time, which is still valid today. An add-on to that now is I have a son now, and it's about letting go.

41:28Jawad MirRight? It's about letting go. It's like you're not hovering all the time, and, you have to let them be independent and what, and which we, you and I went through too I'm sure as children, right? So it's, it's, I wanted to bring that up because to me I forgot about when we were talking about the most powerful scene, I think that scene is extremely universal and very relevant even today.

41:56James ClarkeYes. Yes, very much. And also, Gerald, watching the, you know, watching the film and we are talking about different, aspects of the film, I mean, w… going back to the very beginning of the film and certainly again actually back to that fantastic scene with the peanut butter, peanut butter scene, if I can call it, at their mum's house or wherever.

42:17Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

42:18James ClarkeI have to say, what it, what that entire scene also reminded me of, and this will not surprise. It reminded me of Hook, which is a completely different kind of movie.

42:27Jawad MirYes.

42:28James ClarkeOther than broadly speaking it's a fantasy film, and, you know, if we think about science fiction and fantasy, they're distinct, but they're all u… under a, some kind of shared umbrella. But the, and again, I'm not for a moment saying that Spielberg and David Koepp are sitting there going, "Oh, well, you did this in Hook. We, let's do it again." No way, but…

42:46Jawad MirNo

42:47James ClarkeBut, it is there, which is to say that, you know, in Hook it's rendered in a, in a very overtly amusing way, which is, well, Mummy could save us, and, you know, the dad is floundering and can't get anything right, of course, which is all part of the initial story material in Hook. And but you get the same preoc… preoccupation, you get the same issue presented in a very different way because it's a very different movie. And I just thought, wow, okay, the, you know, because people do of course often talk about that child-parent relationship in his movies all the way back as... And we started by talking about Jaws, a little while ago this afternoon, this morning. And, but it's still there. You know, and so there are lots of different ways to, well, be interested by the film, but that domestic scenario is just so familiar to people that it becomes such a wonderful doorway into or a kind of foothold actually amidst all of the, you know, crazy stuff going on, to put it lightly.

43:51James ClarkeBut I was really struck by that. And again, I'm just sort of building on what you were saying about that family dynamic between the parent and their children or parent and their child, and then I, as I said, watching the peanut butter scene, I just thought, gosh, it's so, it's so like Hook, that little bit.

44:06Jawad MirYou're right.

44:07James ClarkeAgain, I can't make the... I can't stress enough that if you've never seen either of these films, which perhaps might be, unlikely, they're so different. Actually, I also, if I may say, Jared, just talk about Hook momentarily as a footnote, just how much I enjoyed the conversation you had with Jim V. Hart.

44:22Jawad MirI was gonna s… I was gonna mention that. I was gonna ask you a few because it's one of my favorite conversations.

44:28James ClarkeThat was wonderful. I, well, when I saw it was available, I listened to it, and I was very glad to listen to it, 'cause that film for me is a real, very special one actually for any number of reasons. But yeah, it was, I…

44:42Jawad MirBut it, you know, I'm glad you talked about Hook because I, Hook was one of those films that I, or still, maybe still was until I spoke to Jim… ... One of those films that I don't really think about when I think about Spielberg, like Hook, always Color Purple…

45:00James ClarkeYes

45:00Jawad Mir... Are three, and 1941, they are the films that I normally don't think about Spielberg when I think about Spielberg. I mean, I'm not saying they're great films, they're not ba… they're bad films, but Hook I appreciated a lot more because I had to see it to talk to Jim again, and I saw it after a long time. Like, you know, when I was a kid I saw it in the late '90s, and seeing it as a father was different, and then I appreciated a lot of the technicalities and the storytelling. But obviously when Jim told me all the stories and the production designing and all that, like, you know, like how amazing of a film it is.

45:42James ClarkeOh, wonderful.

45:43Jawad MirRight? And yeah, I don't know why it's not been on my list in…

45:49James ClarkeWell, it's very interesting. It's really interesting, Jared, and this is true of, we could equally be talking about Christopher Nolan or John Carpenter's movies or, Sofia Coppola's movies or her, and we all, and this is part of the joy of talking about it and working out why something is special to us, I think is what it is about deep down. I th… I do think there's a lot to be said for that. You were saying that for you Hook is not kind of synonymous with Steven Spielberg, film director. Whereas for me, and I absolutely mean this heart and soul, Hook for me is completely synonymous with him. I would…

46:25James ClarkeIt's interesting, isn't it? If, I mean, I'm, I'm being very trite here, if someone said to me, "Would you rather sit down and watch Jurassic Park this afternoon or Hook?" I would, I'd go for Hook every single time. You know, so it's really interesting. I, not that we want to necessarily focus on Hook too much today, it's just sort of come up as a footnote, but, isn't it interesting which films, as I say, whether it's Steven Spielberg or any of the other filmmakers that are, y… you know, in the frame for people, whether, and it could be contemporary filmmakers that we could be talking about Hitchcock and Howard Hawks and John Ford or whoever it may be, but, isn't it interesting which films from their filmographies become the kind of the yardstick? You know, they become, they become the go-to material, if you like. It's really interesting.

47:13Jawad MirI think the reason for that, and I was talk… I was talking to about this to somebody on the podcast, I don't remember who, it's not, I believe it's not about the film that you like is because the film is great, which could be partially the reason. It is mainly about where you are in life and what you're going through and what you're thinking that connects. I'll give you a simple story. I had, director, I don't know if I, if you've seen that episode, directors of Prince of Egypt.

47:47James ClarkeOh yes, Tyler Wilson. Yes.

47:49Jawad MirYeah. So y… did you remember that story about this, woman who went to see Prince of Egypt with her kids?

47:54James ClarkeYes.

47:55Jawad MirOkay. So I'll just mention it again for the audience that how she went to, her husband was abusive, you know, physically abusing her, and they, the wife and the kids went to see Prince of Egypt, and they walked out and they said, "We're not going back." And they went on and had their own life, and this girl, the daughter of that mother, met the directors after 15, 20 years. That movie changed the trajectory of their life. And I think Jurassic Park changed the trajectory of my life. Like Hook changed the trajectory for... And I think that's what matters. You could be, you could like the one of the most terrible films out there that ever made, but if it just somehow there's a moment in there that resonates with you, it's the greatest film of all time.

48:37James ClarkeIt is. And it's really, I mean, again, w… not just you and I, but I would hope there are other people out there hearing this and going, "Yep, I agree with that." But, you know, and it doesn't have to be a contemporary film. It doesn't even have to be a film of your generation, if you like. It could be something that was made in 1935 and you wa… you watch it, I mean, you know, and you go, "Oh my gosh." But this is one of the great, I don't know, it's like, it's just such a beautiful part of it. As you say, whatever the film is, whether it's considered trash or an all-time classic or everything in between… The film has been made to entertain you. That we might assume that's the basic idea, what… whatever, you know, whatever that might quite mean. But you as the viewer or as the audience, you know, sitting out there in the cinema together, hopefully still together, you do, you do m… make it your own. You do bring... In fact, actually because of the filmmaker we're talking about specifically, I remember when, Saving Private Ryan was released in the summer of 1998.

49:36James ClarkeAnd, Steven Spielberg did an interview for or with The Guardian newspaper here in the UK, which has always had a really good film section basically on its pages, you know. And he said to the interviewer, I'm trying to remember who the interviewer was, I think it was a guy called Simon Hattenstone. You might be able to find the interview online of course. And Steven Spielberg said, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said, "If you've got 100 people in the cinema audience all watching the same film, what's actually happening is that 100 different films are being watched."

50:09Jawad MirYeah.

50:10James ClarkeAnd I was so pleased when I mean, maybe I should, you know, have more on my mind, but I can remember that still to this day reading that, and I remember thinking while I read it all those years ago, thinking, "Yes. Good man. That's exactly it." And I think what that also ties into, and again, I… I don't know if I'm sort of jumping outside of our comfort…

50:31Jawad MirNo. You're, you're fine. Go for it

50:33James Clarke... I think it's great that he never ever did a commentary for his films.

50:37Jawad MirI completely agree with you.

50:39James ClarkeFor the very reason that I've just referred to in terms of the interview, which is that there's 100 different films being watched if there are 100 people watching it. And I, and I've en… I enjoyed any number of DVD documentaries, which feels like ancient history now as a moment in time, and w… aren't we lucky to have that as a moment in time to grow up in. But I always thought it was really fabulous that he never ever did it because, I think if I may say this, I, this might be contentious, I don't know. I think the potential downside of a director's commentary is that it sometimes might box in the viewer and think, "Well, the director said it's about this, therefore that's what it's about." But actually what we've been talking about, you and I in the last two or three minutes, is that you make the film special in a sense.

51:30Jawad MirYeah.

51:30James ClarkeKind of regardless in a sense of whatever it was that the director or the filmmaker perhaps intended. And I was reading something the other day, and a… again, I'm paraphrasing, you have to forgive me, but... And I know we're here talking about Steven Spielberg's movies, so there's that sense of auth… sense of authorship, but actually obviously there are lots of other people working on the film with him, and they're all bringing their own…

51:52Jawad MirYeah

51:52James Clarke... Intelligence to the film. People may know the name Rick Carter, who has collaborated…

51:58Jawad MirYeah

51:58James Clarke... As a production…

51:58Jawad MirProduction designer. Yep

52:00James Clarke... Many years with Steven Spielberg. And certainly back around the time of movies like War Horse and Lincoln, which are two of my favorite Steven Spielberg films, they did a series of, and again, you will know these things, Jawed. They did a series of really wonderful kind of panel discussions with the creative heads on each of those movies. So you had, you know, your production designer…

52:22James Clarke... Costume designer, sound and so on, talking about the making of the film. And again, I'm pretty sure they'll, they'll still be available online, and I always loved hearing what Rick Carter had to say because I have to say he, and he did the same when he talked about the production design for The Force Awakens. If people out there are Star Wars fans, Rick Carter, who worked on that movie in terms of production design, his reflections, I think that's the best word to use, his reflections and recollections of what the job of a production designer is generally and then specifically unto, you know, whether it's Star Wars: The Force Awakens or War Horse or Back to the Future or an episode of Amazing Stories or whatever it might be, his comments and insights are so wonderful because he makes a really wonderfully clear case for it's about you the viewer. What do you, what do you make of all this stuff that you're looking at on the screen, you know?

53:25James ClarkeAnd it's a combination of your own real life mixed in with all the other films you've seen and all the, you know. I mean, it's, this wonderful, soup of responses, which is, you know, very much what you've, you've been talking about in this conversation. And I, and War of the Worlds has it too. I, when I was watching it yesterday, it ma… it sort of made me smile actually 'cause I hadn't picked up on this, which is that the first, the first time we meet or when we first meet Ray, he's up in the crane on the docks, and almost the last time we see him in the film he's up inside the tripod saving the day. And I just thought, "B… the film begins and ends with him up inside a machine."

54:08Jawad MirI never thought of that.

54:09James ClarkeThat's, you know. Well, that's the thing innit, 'cause I don't think I ever thought of that when I first watched it, but watching it with fresh eyes yesterday I thought, "Wow, look at that." We, the first time we see him he's up in a big machine, and the v… almost the last time we see him, so I'm, I'm stretching the rules here a bit, he's also up inside a machine. Now that's, I mean, that's a real footnote kind of observation, but the point I was going to make actually was, because I just didn't remember, it's as simple as that. I had completely forgotten or never ever knew, remi… never ever picked up on it in the first place, but you've got all those incredible pictograms on the machine. When Tom Cruise's character is up inside the cage and the harvesting is well underway, and then he goes up inside the organism of the tripod. In all of that scuffle and melee of activity, and the screaming and shouting, and the soldier trying to pull him down, all that stuff, you get a couple of shots which are kind of mid shots on people's reactions. But what you see as part of the production design, this is my long-winded point, is there are these really wonderfully,...

55:12James ClarkePlaced, I'm gonna call them pictograms that are part of the machinery of the tripod. I mean, if you, if you translated them it might just say something like, "Do not open this door," or something, or something like that. But it was just the detail of it, which is, you know, they're fl… a fleeting moment in a couple of shots. But it's all just about this thing of this, just how vivid and meaningful the production design is, and I think that was what really struck me yesterday actually watching it, was how beautiful, even though they're monstrous forms, but just how beautiful…

55:45Jawad MirIt's, it's the details. Everything is in the details, right? It's like when you get your house ... A room redone or something, and somebody will paint them, and if they don't do the corner that will bother the hell out of you, right? Because that's, it's all in the details at the end of the day. And…

56:00James ClarkeAnd I was…

56:02Jawad MirSorry?

56:03James ClarkeNo, go. Carry on, Joel, please.

56:04Jawad MirNo, I was just gonna say Rick Carter, I mean, he did Jurassic Park as well and so many other films, and, he's an amazing production designer. I mean, same thing with Alex McDowell who did, Minority Report. And, there's... I, you know, I always overlooked production designers when I was watching films. I think I probably started appreciating them more in the last four or five years. Not that I didn't do it before, but I think may… with the podcast I've spoken to a lot of production designer, and it just makes me appreciate their work. And obviously there's so many other people, like the costume designers and their teams and, you know, it's a collaborative effort at the end of the day, and War of the Worlds is a direct result of that.

56:49James ClarkeWell, it is, and it's just very, and I think Doug Chiang worked on it as well, didn't he, in terms of kind of various visualizations and concept work. But it's, yeah, I think the word is beautiful actually. As I said, I know the tripods are bad news for humanity, but they're very beautifully designed, and they're very…

57:06Jawad MirYeah

57:06James Clarke... Beautifully lit, and they're very beautifully presented in the shot. And it, I don't know, it just... There was a lovely series of books published about, oh, gee whiz, I'm gonna say 25 years ago. Everything seems to be 25 years ago now to me, but anyway. And there was, there were a series of books and they were published in a, in a series of books called Screencraft.

57:31James ClarkeI don't, I don't remember the publisher, but that was the series of books. And they certainly had one that was cinematography, which was essentially interviews with a dozen working cinematographers about their process.

57:44James ClarkeJanusz Kaminski was one of those DPs. And there was certainly a production design volume in the series. I'm tempted to say there might've been an editing edition as well. Anyway, certainly I would recommend if I may that if people are interested to, in things, those books are well worth checking out, the Screencraft books. But as you say, the production design, I suppose production design as equally... Oh, it is. It's as important as the dialogue and the blocking of a scene, 'cause obviously the blocking of a scene has to work…

58:16Jawad MirOf course

58:17James Clarke... What you've designed, you know? It has to…

58:18Jawad MirYeah

58:19James Clarke... But again, you know, we're, we're sort of not meant to notice it, but actually part of the pleasure of, and the delight of being interested in this stuff is that you do kind of look at that. And in fact, I was looking yesterday when, in fact, I was paying some attention to the decor and the production design. I'm n… not talking now about tripods stomping all over the earth. I'm talking about, you know, Ray's house and just what's…

58:44James Clarke... And just how totally believable it looked to me. You know, it looked completely plausible as a space, as a place, you know?

58:54Jawad MirYeah

58:55James Clarke... And how…

58:56Jawad MirIt just looked like our home. Like, you know, it just looked like a blue collar worker's home.

59:01James ClarkeExactly.

59:01Jawad MirNothing over the top.

59:02James ClarkeExactly, and it just really…

59:04Jawad MirYeah

59:05James Clarke... I was just really struck by that. And then again, well, and I suppose we have talked about it by implication, but you know, again, just, you know, the camera moves. I mean, that's a sweeping statement, but there's a wonderful moment, again, early in the film, I love that first 25 minutes actually, where, you know, and I think it's around, maybe it's the splinter scene I was talking about earlier, but you know, the camera's on Rachel and then this, and then it, and then it moves and it k… kind of comes right, r… circles or semi-circles round to Tom Cruise's reaction. So rather than there just being a…

59:35Jawad MirCut

59:36James Clarke... Cut, you just get this lovely moment of revelation of his. And it's that those, well, those details of storytelling are so, if you're, if you're interested in them, some people I guess won't be, but you know, if that's, if that's something that you appreciate and enjoy watching and kind of paying attention to, this film, you know, works a treat. And again, you get a rather nice, eh, it's not quite a variation on that, but in the cellar scene with Tim Robbins, there's this wonderful moment where, there's a lovely shot of Rachel and Ray asleep on the sofa.

1:00:10James ClarkeI don't, I don't think Tim Robbins' character is even in the s… in that part of the cellar at that point, so it's just a shot on them, and he's sung her to sleep with singing the Beach Boys song and so on. And then the camera, I think it, I think it does cut, and it comes down to a close-up on Rachel, and then she turns, and of course the camera moves, and there's one of the tripod's

1:00:32Jawad MirThe eyepiece

1:00:33James Clarke... Eyepiece tendril thing, yeah, you know. And again, I thought, again, I'm just dropping all these little observations in. I hope it's interesting, but you know, you think back to, the velociraptor attack in the kitchen at the end of Jurassic Park, and there's that moment where, the spoon falls off the…

1:00:50Jawad MirYeah

1:00:50James Clarke... Cabinet, which is very much a moment o… about the tension and, ah, is it gonna make a big noise and alert the velociraptors to the kiddies? There's a similar scene, but not quite 'cause it's not really done for tension, it's just, but it is done to make the animation of the aliens really plausible, which is as the aliens go up the cellar stairs to go back out to the tripod, one of them bumps into the bicycle wheel on the wall. And it's just, you know, it, you don't even need it in the moment, but again, it just adds… The believability of it.

1:01:23Jawad MirAnd that only happens with production design being…

1:01:26James ClarkeYeah

1:01:26Jawad Mir... Involved, right? And…

1:01:27James ClarkeYeah. It's huge

1:01:28Jawad Mir... And I mean, I'll sort of, wrap it up with this one thing that for me, you know, you can, you can go to film school, you can do all those things. It's fantastic. You can… you have to be on the field. That's where you learn the most, number one. Which I or anybody else or you will always keep learning no matter how many times you've made films. But one of the things that I have appreciated a lot, which I was talking about earlier, the blocking thing. I'm working on this project which we're hoping to shoot this fall, and for me, if you were to talk to me about 10, 15 years ago, because I… I've edited a lot too, so for me the best at the time editing was, you know, cut. As many cuts as possible to keep people in tune. Which is what the society has become right now because everything is very fast-paced, and I have gone the other direction where I have started realizing in the last 10 to 15 years that how important it is not to cut.

1:02:36Jawad MirAnd that really immerse… immerses your audience into the characters, into the film. I mean, a great example of that is the film The Post, with Meryl Streep and Tom Hanks.

1:02:50James ClarkeRight.

1:02:50Jawad MirRight? The opening sequence, they act… I was watching Spielberg's interview. They actually did a lot of coverage over the shoulder, but in the end they only used one shot, and that sets up the film so amazingly because it's really about them two. And it's not just because it's a gimmick, it's just because it required it. It worked.

1:03:11James ClarkeYeah.

1:03:11Jawad MirAnd that's what, that's what matters. It's you have to, and I'm just kind of... What I'm trying to say in a nutshell is that you have to, and I keep reminding myself this every single day, is that you have to make sure that your audience doesn't lose attention, right? And a great example of that, and just being the last point and we'll wrap it up with your final thoughts, I think it was, one of the editors, who worked on Godfather Part III and Megalopolis, Glenn. I had him a couple of times. I forget his last name. He was telling me the story that, which he had heard from Francis Ford Coppola, or maybe Jim. Jim was telling me the story. Who worked on Dracula? Bram Stoker's Dracula.

1:03:57James ClarkeOh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

1:03:59Jawad MirRight. So the story was that when Godfather II had this early screenings, people hated it, and Francis Ford Coppola went underneath his bedroom's bed and just started, you know, nerve-wracking, like, "What the hell am I doing?" And he talked to his editor, and finally they realized that the problem wasn't the film. The problem was the editing. So you know how the film goes from past to present?

1:04:26James ClarkeYeah.

1:04:27Jawad MirIn the very first set of screenings, the film was going back and forth every 10 minutes.

1:04:33James ClarkeOkay.

1:04:34Jawad MirAnd they realized that the audience was getting knocked out of it, so they held onto each scene, each pre-time period for 20 minutes, and that was it.

1:04:45James ClarkeYeah.

1:04:45Jawad MirThat made the difference. So it's about keeping your audience. You have to give your audience time to get to know your character, the characters that you have, the space, the story. If you pull them out of it too quickly, then it might be…

1:04:59James ClarkeYeah

1:04:59Jawad Mir... A great film, but you've lost your audience.

1:05:01James ClarkeYeah. No, that, it's, again, we could, again, may… maybe we'll do this another day, but I mean, you can, having made that point there, Charlie, you can then use that, and I mean this in a very good, productive way. You can say, okay, right, so let's look at, you know, again, if we were inclined, let's look at some nice examples of where we really stay with the character. I mean, again, actually to come right back to War of the Worlds, right up at the beginning of the film when they realize something's not quite right, they haven't yet gone down to the junction with the church and all the rest of it. But there's a shot where Ray, I guess he realizes Robbie's gone out maybe, nicked the car.

1:05:34Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

1:05:34James ClarkeAnd y… this wide shot and you see Ray come out of his house and he comes down the steps onto the street. The car's not... That's right, the car's not there, and then Ray kind of goes out into the street, and there are lots of other people beginning to mill around and look and... But you stay with him. There's not, you don't get a, you don't sort of get a shot of him coming out of the door, walking towards the camera, then a over the shoulder of him walking down to the str… I mean, you would still know where you were, but you're, you're keeping the mood through that one shot. I wrote a, or co-wrote a script for a short film a long time ago now, which was made, and made, I have to say made very beautifully actually. That might sound a little bit self-serving, but it was really beautifully directed and made and I, you know, I had nothing to do with that beyond the words on the page. And the very first shot of that short film, the camera starts on a close-up. It doesn't just cut to the n… the camera then come, tracks right back to, within the circumstances of a short film it's using up a little bit of screen time, but it puts you in the world of the story and it gives you a sense of the atmosphere and the mood.

1:06:37James ClarkeSo it's, yeah, the, yeah, the duration of a shot, actually. You know, let those shots linger and stage them in an interesting way, and then you're using your more, sort of almost staccato rhythms if you like to maybe build the tension or release the tension and go from there. So you know, again, beginning of the movie, that very first shot you get the introduction with Morgan Freeman and the, and you get that wonderful, I wanted to say this just because it was a great example of just good old clear, interesting storytelling. You get the Earth out in space, and then we go to the red of Mars, and then you get a, and then you get a transition where the red of Mars becomes the red of the traffic light.

1:07:21James ClarkeWhich again sums up a lot of what the story is. You know, stop. The world is gonna stop. Danger, you know? So all of those little grace notes of style, which is what it is, you know, it, and compressing things. It's just, you know, I don't know, that's why, apart from anything else that his films give us, it's all of that moment to moment enjoyment really, if you're, if you're inclined to look out for it.

1:07:45Jawad MirIt is. And, I mean, just to kind of wrap it up, one last thing, the way you said about him coming down the stairs and there's all the people around wondering what happened, that's pretty much what I think storytelling is, that you need to, you shouldn't let your audience get out. I mentioned this earlier. Like, he could have easily cut to different people back and forth.

1:08:04James ClarkeYeah.

1:08:04Jawad MirBut then that takes the audience not knowing who the hell Ray is, because every second Ray is on that frame, the way he turns, the way he walks, the way he takes a step, speaks volumes in a subconscious way to the audience's mind, and that's why he's the greatest filmmaker of all time, and probably will always will be.

1:08:21James ClarkeHe's just, he's... I don't, it just, I know there's been lots written about it, and he's obviously done any number of interviews over the decades now, and so have his collaborators, but even with all of that information and data sort of in the back of my head, when I sit down and watch one of his movies, whether it's brand new, and my gosh, I'm looking forward to next year, but, or whether I'm watching War of the Worlds for the first time in some years, I'm just completely, I just, I end up getting to the end of the film and the very first thing I ev… always think to myself is, "How does he do that?"

1:08:51Jawad MirYeah. It's, and that's a question that we will get another answer to next year when he's, when he's coming out with another film with, UFOs or aliens or something. Nobody knows what it's about, so, which is, I think written by David K… Koepp as well…

1:09:03James ClarkeIt is, yeah

1:09:03Jawad Mir... If I'm not, yeah.

1:09:04James ClarkeTotally looking forward to it. Can't tell you…

1:09:05Jawad MirSo there's no title. Only, I think Emily, what's her name? Emily Blunt.

1:09:11James ClarkeYeah.

1:09:11Jawad MirEmily Blunt is in it, and a few other actors, but looking forward to that, so maybe we'll talk about that next year.

1:09:15James ClarkeI would love to. I have to, you know, when that film was announced in May of last year…

1:09:20Jawad MirYeah

1:09:21James Clarke... I basically bought my ticket to the film there and then. I was like, that's, that, it went straight to the top of my film list of what to look forward to most, so no surprise that I would say that at all.

1:09:32Jawad MirAmazing, man. Well, it's been awesome talking to you once again.

1:09:34James ClarkeYou're welcome.

1:09:35Jawad MirLovely conversation. Let, l… I'll be in touch if I'm down there. We'll hook up.

1:09:39James ClarkeYes. That'd be great. Thank you so much, Jawed.

1:09:43Jawad MirThanks, James. Take care.

1:09:44James ClarkeTake care. Bye for now, everybody. Thank you.