'Jurassic World Rebirth' Review, James Mottram & Jawad Mir

0:00James MottramI have to say, going into it, I really, look, I really enjoyed it. I really had a good time. Y… a… always when you come out of these screenings, th… these sort of press screenings, the publicists want you to give some sort of immediate reaction, and my kind of first reaction was it's the best Jurassic in a decade.

0:18Jawad MirLet me put it this way. That whole experience in the movie theater, from the moment the preview started until the credits started rolling, I will never forget 'cause I... You know when you get that feeling that I wish I could go back in time and re-experience that for the first time without kn…... I would love to do that. That's how great this film was. Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast, The Making of Stories. I'm your host Jawad Mir. Jurassic World Rebirth is out. I went to see it yesterday, on Wednesday, at 1:00 PM show, and boy, did I love the film. And I don't wanna give too much away. But I have, my guest today is James Mortimore, who I've had the pleasure of having, on this podcast probably close to nine, 10 times. We've talked, we've reviewed films. We've talked about his books, that he have written, Jurassic Park, the Official Script Book, Jurassic Park Ultimate Visual History, Trilogy to Jurassic World, and many other books that he's written.

1:29Jawad MirAnd he and I talked about Jurassic World, but boy, has Gareth Edwards hit this film out of the park. And you will hear a lot of stuff in our conversation. A little bit of spoilers here and there. So without further ado, here's my conversation with movie critic and author James Mortimore. What have you been up to, obviously, besides watching movies?

1:48James MottramWell, I've just been to the Mediterrane, I should pronounce it correctly, Mediterrane Film Festival in Malta.

1:55Jawad MirOkay.

1:56James MottramIt's their third edition this year. And, yeah, it's a great little festival. Well, I should s… I shouldn't really say little. It's definitely getting bigger. It's kind of, it's kind of incredible because, it's, they use it partly as a way of, showcasing Malta as a, as a destination for filmmakers. So for example, this year they had this, the opening screening was a kind of retrospective screening of Gladiator II, held outside in Fort Ricasoli, which was one of the v… venues that Ridley Scott used to actually film the movie there. So…

2:37Jawad MirOh, cool

2:38James Mottram... Yeah, you know, it's got a lot of that, basically. And, yeah, it's, it's, r… and at the end, in a sort of weird, I suppose circular moment, Russell Crowe came on to collect an award. They have these awards at the end called the Golden Bee Awards. And, yeah, Russell Crowe came on, and, picked up an award for being a film legend, which, let's face it, he is. So, yeah, it was a, it was a kind of fun, it was a fun week or so in the, in the very hot Malta.

3:08Jawad MirThat's amazing. That's good to hear that you're doing that and, you know… ... With a…

3:12James MottramAnd I should, sorry, I should just say, just to tie into what we're h… here to…

3:16Jawad MirAh, I was gonna say that too, but go ahead. I'll let you do it.

3:19James MottramYeah. Go on, I'll do it. So basically, well, the fort itself is right next to Malta Film Studios, which isn't really a studio in what you might imagine, although they are looking to build a sound stage ultimately, but it is two enormous outdoor water tanks, which I had a good look around, and that's partly where they filmed Jurassic World Rebirth. So how about that for tying it in?

3:45Jawad MirCouldn't, couldn't agree with you more. And, you know, you and I have talked about Jurassic World Rebirth maybe once or twice very subtly, when the trailer came out, I think, and obviously you've written two books on Jurassic Park trilogy, Jurassic World trilogy, and, you know, you, I, you're very familiar with Jurassic, univ… if you wanna call it Jurassic universe or franchise, even though I don't want to. So am I. I have my thoughts obviously, about the film, and I, one of the things I did do was I limit myself from watching too many trailers. So I only saw the s… first teaser and the sec… the se… the full trailer, and that's it. Like, I didn't see anything else. I refuse to. But before I talk about the film, what did you think of the film?

4:33James MottramWell, I similarly didn't see a lot. I saw a trailer when I went to see Bridget Jones, actually. They showed a press screening of Bridget Jones, and they had the tra… the trailer had just dropped, and they screened the, they screened it before the Bridget Jones film. So I saw that, and I was very excited, and then I went on a post-production visit, I guess you could call it, to Abbey Road Studios where they were, in London, where they were filming, they were recording rather the score. Alexandre Desplat was there, and so was Gareth Edwards, the director. So I saw little clips as they were recording the score. Everything was silent, so I couldn't hear any, there was no dialogue. It was just like little excerpts from mainly, obviously, from the action sequences. So it was all completely out of context. So…... I didn't know where any of these action sequences came. I didn't know the storyline. And I kept away largely from, you know, build-up sort of press.

5:34James MottramI did speak to David Koepp afterwards, who told me a little more, you know, this basic premise that they're, they're going to the, this island, you know, to collect samples from the three largest dinosaurs. But I think that was kind of well in the public domain by that point anyway. So I didn't know a lot, you know. Like you, I kind of kept away from it, and I wanted to experience it a… you know, as much as one can these days with these huge films, you know, with a sense of purity. And… Yeah, I mean, like you said, I've, I've written the two, visual history books. I also did the Jurassic script book as well. So I'm steeped in that universe. There's, there's no question about it. And I don't know whether that makes me more likely to like it or more likely to be critical of it, if you know what I mean. And I, you know, yeah, I guess I'm a fan, so I'm always gonna want it to be really good. But I have to say, going into it, I really lo… I really enjoyed it.

6:37James MottramI really had a good time. Y… a… always when you come out of these screenings, th… these sort of press screenings, the publicists want you to give some sort of immediate reaction, and my kind of first reaction was it's the best Jurassic in a decade. Now y… we can argue what… whatever you think of Jurassic World, the 2015 movie, Colin Trevorrow's first film, I love that film, 'cause I had zero expectations at that point. At that point, I hadn't written any Jurassic books. I just went in as a, as a fan, you know, as someone who'd enjoyed the first mo… the first trilogy of movies. But I hadn't been, like, waiting for the last, whatever it was at that point, 10 years or more, for the next Jurassic, 'cause there was obviously this huge kind of gap of time. I, you know, I had no expectations. I went in and I loved Jurassic World because it was the film that I think all fans wanted to see, i.e., the John Hammond park finally open for business. And I thought they pulled that off brilliantly.

7:38James MottramBut I thought what Gareth does here, it was like m… mainlining Jurassic Park again on some level, you know? And there are pros and cons of that. You know, I did think about it afterwards of like, well, is it a little too close to Jurassic Park? Are they paying too much of a homage to it? We can talk about that in a minute, I think. But purely from, I would say, two p… two set pi… no, maybe three set pieces out of five. Those set pieces being the Mosasaur encounter towards the beginning of the film, the T-rex encounter, and the Titanosaurus encounter in the field, I thought were absolutely staggering sequences. You know, my heart rate was up in the Mosasaur sequence and the T-rex sequence, and I had a lump in my throat for the Titanosaurus sequence where you get a real blast of the John Williams score.

8:40James MottramI, you know, just for those moments alone, I was like, "Well, he nailed it, basically." He made me feel like this is a Jurassic movie, you know, once again. And i… it's interesting because I kind of tried to work it out. In terms of, settings for the seven movies, I kind of counted it up. About five of them, or five and a half or something like that, have all been on an island, either I… I… Isla Nu… Nublar, Isla Sorna…

9:09James Mottram... Or this Îles San Ho… Hubert, I think it's called. And you know, they've obviously, you know, you've had the end of The Lost World, the second movie, which was in San Diego. You had the second half of Fallen Kingdom, which is in the, you know, a house. And then, you know, Dominion is kind of all over the place. It's a globe-trotting and, chase movie, basically. And you could argue that those bits don't work as well as everything that's ever been set on an island, because it's a con… contained space. I mean, the end of Fallen Kingdom is in a contained space as well, but I think an island gives it that tropical, exotic, you know, the land that time forgot kind of vibe, and that's what seems to make, to work best for a Jurassic film. I mean, going forward, and we can talk about this in a minute as well, I'm not sure how they're gonna play out if they do another one, which let's face it, they're bound to. I, do we want another film set on an island? I'm not sure, but they're gonna have to come up with a really good idea.

10:12James MottramBut going back in this sort of let's call it, you know, Mission Impossible style adventure, which it sort of is, it worked really well. I, you know, I thought Scarlett absolutely nailed it. You know, she's supposed to be this huge Jurassic fan. I'm not saying that shines through in the performance, but she's very good at action. We know her from Black Widow and so forth. I thought she did a terrific job here. Mahershala Ali is the sort of ship's captain. Okay, he's not quite on Quint from Jaws level, but he's good in it. He's very watchable. Likewise, Jonathan Bailey, who doesn't try and do a Jeff Goldblum a… you know, as, Dr., Dr. Loomis. It's kind of a mix of Alan Grant and the Goldblum character. But I still thought he was great. He was entertaining. Yeah, there was so much to like about this film. I just found it very likable. But come on, give me you. Let's, let's hear, let's hear you.

11:14Jawad MirI was a, as I said earlier, I was holding off from watching clips because one of the things that I did with Jurassic Park 2: The Lost World, which came out 28 years ago, 'cause the internet was new, I was watching stuff, and even though I loved the experience, I knew a lot of scenes. With this film, few things to start off with before I talk about the film. One of the things that was very refreshing was that it was shot on film, and the colors, they were saturated. It wasn't like, you know, desaturated color tones that you see in a lot of TV series and movies nowadays. You wa… y… you felt like you were in the '90s, '80s, and '70s in terms of the color and all that. The cinematography with John Mathieson, who's also worked on Gladi… Gladiator, was phenomenal. I mean, one of my favorite sequences in the film is not an action sequence, it's a dialogue between Mahershala's and, Scarlett's character, on the ship, on the boat, and there's this light kinda glimmering on his face back and forth, and it's... The amount of detail they paid attention to was phenomenal in that sense. I wasn't too crazy about the score until the theme hit in the middle of the film.

12:17Jawad MirThat really, I mean, that wonder that you got from the first Jurassic Park when you first see the dinosaurs, he really recaptured it. Like, I felt I have never seen a dinosaur movie before. Like, that's how great that sequence was. And the best part of the film, yes, it had some not-so-great dialogue, which is fine. I'm okay with that because I'm looking at it from an entertainment standpoint. It was thrilling as hell. S… you can even call it scary at times. Unexpected sequences, a lot of silent moments before something happens, and it just encapsulates you. I mean, Gareth, I've been a huge fan of since he came out with his independent film way back in 2008 or '09, Monsters. And he's, since then, he's done Rogue One, Godzilla, The Creator and now this. His way of executing direction with the visual effects, because he's a visual effects guy, is beyond... I mean, is literally, I have to tell you this, it's up to par with Spielberg.

13:22Jawad MirLike, there are very few directors who can pull that off, and you don't feel for a second that these are, like, CGIs or look fake. You're just so drawn into the film, into the moments. I mean, for me, there were so great moments, but I think the best moment, which I won't spoil it, is when one of the characters goes to take a pee. I thought that was, that was... I mean, that literally sets the film right after that. Like, w… that happens and then boom, s… things start happening. So all in all, I mean, I felt there was a homage to Jaws. You know, I felt there was Jurassic Park III in there with the family element. Definitely, there were sequences from The Lost World, Jurassic Park. And for me, I'm willing... I, as much as I enjoyed the first Jurassic World film, I'm willing to forget about those entire, all three of those films because this really lives up to the first two or even three. I mean, three at the time, I didn't like it, but looking back at it, I thought it was a great...

14:23Jawad MirIt's a, it's a good, entertaining, thrilling film. But I hope they don't make a sequel, but I know they will, and I may want to watch it. But I thought Gareth did a phenomenal job in every department. He really put you on the edge of the seat, suspense, and I think audience are gonna love that. And this film is gonna do really well because of that.

14:42James MottramYeah, no. It's funny, I don't always read other people's reviews, you know, in the wake of a film. But I was very curious to see when the embargo dropped what the reactions were. Because you see these social media reactions before the embargo drops and, of course, everyone goes crazy. But you can't really take much stock in that. It's much better to look at sort of s… you know, a gamut of reviews. So I saw... Sorry that some of these are UK publications, so some of your listeners may not be familiar. But five stars from The Telegraph. And I read that review. It was g… you know, he said a lot of what you've just said. And then Rolling Stone I read, which was really, like, down on it, and it was like, "Oh, this is really generic." And, yeah, he was tough. The... I think it was a he, the reviewer was tough on that. And then Empire Magazine, they kind of went right in the middle and gave it three. So, and in a way, I'm okay with that it's, it won't necessarily be for everyone.

15:45James MottramSome people will pick holes in certain aspects of it. But I think it can't be denied exactly what you just said. The action sequences are brilliantly executed, particularly the ones I mentioned earlier. The aquatic scene early on, the T-Rex scene which is absolutely fabulous. I mean…

16:02Jawad MirYeah

16:02James Mottram... Particularly, I think, whether people even know this, because even Gareth didn't know this, apparently. I can, I can say this now 'cause I interviewed Gareth recently and, I mentioned the T-Rex scene, which of course comes from the original, Michael Crichton novel which they were gonna do for the original movie. They storyboarded it, and then they dropped it because it was, A, too expensive at the time, they were trying to keep the budget down. B, obviously digital effects were just in their infancy then. They had the, you know, they had the big animatronic, of course. But to do a creature wading through water, chasing, at that point it's obviously Alan Grant and the kids on a raft. Now it gets changed to the, to the Delgado family who are sort of the, this stranded family, that you alluded to a minute ago. Y… you know, it's m… I'm so glad they kept it till now because obviously now they can use digital effects. It looks so much more convincing as it probably would've done then. And yeah, it's an absolutely terrific sequence.

17:04James MottramYeah, I think it's impossible to argue against what Gareth's done here. He's d… he's, he's just knocked it out of the park with those sequences. But, you know, some people were a bit like, "Well, we've seen this kind of thing before." M… it does pay homage, as I said earlier, to things like Jurassic Park. Y… one you didn't mention was Raiders of the Lost Ark, which apparently the sequence in the kind of cave where they go up and into the nest.

17:34Jawad MirAh.

17:35James MottramThat was originally just a kind of cave and a nest in the script. Gareth changed it into a sort of temple alluding to sort of Aztec and Mayan designs which, of course, was his nod to Raiders of the Lost Ark. You know, I think he's fine with sort of the comparison. Not, he's not comparing himself to Spielberg. He knows that, you know, Spielberg's the master. He absolutely loves Spielberg's stuff. He grew up on him. But yeah, I think there are nods to Jaws, there are nods to Raiders, e… e… et cetera, and all the other films you just alluded to. And I think he's okay with that. It's like, you know, this is a fun ride. It's meant to propel us back to the '90s. That's why they got David Koepp back to write the script. It's his first script since The Lost World in the, in the Jurassic universe, although he's kind of always been in the background even across the Jurassic World franchise. He's always been there for, you know, to pass notes and so forth. And I think Koepp really brings the humor back in it. I'll be honest, I found the boyfriend character of the Delgado family quite irritating.

18:37James MottramY… you know, but he still did bring some humor into it. A… and… you mentioned that Mahershala's, scarlet scene. I'm guessing that's the scene where they talk about, I think they have a kind of little heart to heart about…

18:52Jawad MirYeah

18:53James Mottram... What's happened to various people in their lives. I like the fact that there was that scene in there just to sort of let the characters breathe a little bit.

19:02Jawad MirYep.

19:02James MottramYou got... It wasn't all action. You got to know them a little bit. There's a few other little moments, you know, the Jonathan Bailey's character, Loomis, he's very much talking about the morality, the ethics of the science here. You know, whether it's, you know, bringing dinosaurs back to life or this kind of collecting samples so that, they can make this medicine for, to cure heart disease. And obviously he wants the science to be, you know, there for everyone, you know? Not to be some… something that the pharmaceutical companies will exploit and make trillions of dollars from. And again, I like the fact that there was time to talk about these topics, and that again made us think back to what was in the first movie. I mean, there's nothing in this film that's as good as the lunch scene they have in Jurassic Park, where they're all sitting around the table. But, you know, that was a lightning, that ja… that film is a lightning in a bottle moment, and I know they've tried to recapture it six times since.

20:03James MottramThey never managed it. This comes pretty close.

20:06Jawad MirYep.

20:07James MottramBut perhaps it will always remind us of Jurassic Park because that's, that's the original, and it's very hard to top that movie. It probably will never be topped. But yeah, I thought they made a pretty sterling effort to do so.

20:24Jawad MirYeah. No, all in all, I couldn't agree with you more, James, and I think this whole incorporating Spielberg homages, if you wanna call them, I think it's just, it's not about necessarily comparison, because that's what he grew up with, and I can totally relate to that because anytime I'm working on a project, I have to see a Spielberg film. Like, I have to see a Spielberg film just to get into that zone, not that I'm trying to imitate or copy, it's just because that's what I learned from, right? And you have to throw those stuff in there just to, as a thank you for, you know, a lot teaching me what you taught me, even though you were not physically there. And Gareth had... And that scene about where they talk about their families beside the lighting was just, was just very heart to heart and wa… was very phenomenal. I will agree, I will admit one thing though, that the little thing that threw me off in the beginning, and this is just a little finical thing, I mean, this is just, doesn't really even matter. I just felt that even though they were trying to set the thing, the film up in New York City, I just felt the pacing of it and the cuts were...

21:25Jawad MirPacing was good, but the cuts of it was too much, and it was just kind of pulling me out. But once they leave New York, I mean, then it just becomes like, you know, not necessarily a pure entertainment, but there's a lot of heart to heart. It's edited really well. And again, I mean, I just, I agree with you. I found the boyfriend to be a little bit irritating at the beginning, but there was a really cool dialogue by his girlfriend's father, which I just saw it again. I can't remember the dialogue, but it's like, you know, "The other world is gonna tear you down. Don't tear yourself down." Basically, that was the analogy. Like, you know, the world is there to do shit to you. Don't call yourself out on things. So there was some really nice lessons in there, and one thing that I really enjo… love that there was not a lot of explanat… it's like even for a non-Jurassic Park fan, I don't know if anybody has not seen Jurassic Park films, I refuse to believe that, but let's just say there's a lot of people out there. You don't have to know the Jurassic world or Jurassic Park stories to enjoy this because at the, at the core of it's a scary film, and you can forget about all the explanations, and there was no battle sequences, which I know a lot of people were expecting.

22:36Jawad MirIt just kept it simple. All the dinosaurs show up. I think the lar… longest screen time any dinosaur had was, T-Rex essentially, and everything else was just kind... And whatever the d… dinosaur was, I forget the name, the bird sequence. Like, I thought that was really when…

22:54James MottramI can, I can never pronounce that one. It's…

22:56Jawad MirYeah

22:56James Mottram... It begins with Q. Quetzalcoatlus or something like that. But forgive me…

23:00Jawad MirYeah

23:00James Mottram... D… dinosaur experts out there because I cannot pronounce that one. Everyone, there's, I've seen a lot of people, by the way, talking about that sequence, referring to it as a pteroda… a pterodactyl or, you know, P… pteranodon.

23:11Jawad MirYeah.

23:11James MottramThat is, that is incorrect. But, yeah. Yeah, a couple of things. Sorry, just to backtrack on what I was saying about Gareth. When I interviewed him, he didn't actually realize... He'd read the script, obviously, and then they shot the script, and they shot that T-Rex in the river sequence. He did not know that came from the Michael Crichton novel.

23:31Jawad MirOh, really?

23:32James MottramYeah. So he'd obviously, he'd read the Crichton novel when he was about 17, obviously a long time ago, and in fact, he, I think he said he got to the final 10 pages of the book, and then the movie came out like, you know, back in '93, so he went straight to see the movie, and then he thought, "Well, it's all right. I'm seeing the movie." And then of course the ending is sort of slightly different anyway. But he'd forgotten about the river raft sequence, and it hadn't twigged in his mind when he read the script, and he shot it. And then, and this is a little bit embarrassing to admit, but his, they were editing Jurassic World Rebirth in London, him and his editor. They were on a insane schedule, as they have been across this entire movie. And one day they had to wait for something or other, so they had like half an hour off. So they went out and he said, "Let's go to the comic book store," in London. So I'm not sure which one they went to, but they went to a store. The editor saw, I'm pretty sure, and I c… I think it might be right next to you on your, on your pile of books there.

24:38James MottramThe, on the top. The yellow one. Is it at the very top? Is

24:41Jawad MirThis one?

24:42James MottramNo, the other way. No, the other way, the other way The yellow one there. Is, no…

24:45Jawad MirOh, yeah

24:46James Mottram... It's the one. Is that the script book?

24:48Jawad MirYep, it is.

24:48James MottramYeah, it is. Right. I think it's that one that he bought, the editor…

24:52Jawad MirYeah

24:52James Mottram... Took it back, took it back to the office, and started flicking through it. And of course, that book has got, storyboards from the dumped, river raft sequence. And they, the editor looked at it and went, "Oh my God, there was supposed to be a river raft sequence in the original Jurassic Park," and none of them knew about it. And then Gareth was kinda like, "Well, I'm glad I didn't know, because I'd have been terrified to shoot that sequence knowing it'd already been, you know, looked over by Spielberg and considered by Spielberg once upon a time." But I actually think he did a, you know, he did a terrific job. Obviously, that sequence in the ultimate film, in Rebirth, is different from what's in the book, because it's different characters, for a start. But I will say, if I take one image away from Rebirth, not giving too much away, but with the yellow raft upside down on the little girl, and the jaws of the T-Rex kind of almost bursting through, I thought that's just a beautiful moment in the film.

25:53James MottramOne other thing I wanted to mention, just to touch back on John Matheson, as you, as you, brought him up. You mentioned shooting on film, which is completely correct. I'm not sure if you knew, that they not only shot on film, but they shot on the original Panavision cameras…

26:09Jawad MirYes

26:09James Mottram... And original, using the original Panavision lenses that they shot Jurassic Park with. Again, just to kind of get that feel of Jurassic Park. It's obviously very subtle. I don't know how much anyone will pick that up, but it's, there's so much thought gone into let's try and remember what made Jurassic Park great, and let's try and recapture that feeling. Which I think they really did in so many ways. It was just a real concerted effort to go, "This is what made that original movie great. Let's try and get back to it." You know. May… maybe you're right, maybe this would be a perfect place to end it, in a sort of circular moment. Be like, you know, I don't wanna give too much away about the ending, but I feel like it could end on a perfect... Jurassic movies nearly always end on a sunset, right? And that's a perfect way to end a franchise. We all know that Universal are gonna go back and try…

27:05Jawad MirOh, yeah

27:05James Mottram... Well, unless this flops, and I don't think it's gonna flop.

27:08Jawad MirNo, I don't think so. I think, I think even if it starts off not so strong, and even the Rotten Tomatoes I just, which I just saw before talking to you was at 54%, and the audience was…

27:20James MottramYeah, I saw that figure or something like that figure. I was staggered that it…

27:23Jawad MirYeah

27:23James Mottram... But that's what I said about the kind of reviews that have gone all over the place. And I'd put it much higher than that.

27:29Jawad MirOh, yeah

27:29James MottramBut…

27:30Jawad MirBut the audience reviews I think was a 77 or 74. So I do think this film has that, it's gonna have legs because of the word of mouth, because it's scary, and people like to be afraid. So I'll t… I'll give you a little tidbit. So my wife, she's not into scary movies at all, right? She's seen the Jurassic films. I think she hasn't seen the last one or two, the Dominion and, Fallen Kingdom. And I was gonna take my son, and I said, "Let's go all of us," like my daughter, my wife, my son, and myself. And she said, "No, you guys go. You know, you and your son go. We will stay home." So then I finally convinced them, and they went, and she was literally, I have never seen her like obviously like this. And they, you know, when something works out, like there's a suspense moment and the characters follow through, like they escape, she went like this, right? And for an audience member to be engaged like that, who's not a Jurassic fan, I think that speaks a testament to the, Gareth's film.

28:31Jawad MirBecause I don't think it's just a dinosaur film. That's, that's what I'm looking at. It's like, it's a scary film. It's a thriller, and it keeps you on the edge of your seat. And like you said the word, like, you know, your heart was pounding, and that's, that's what it is. I mean, we can reiterate ourselves in different ways, but, hats off to Gareth. I was not go… I was hoping to, for it to be a great film. I won't lie, last four or five days when I started seeing the Rotten Tomatoes and the audience reaction, like, eh. But then I was blown away.

29:02James MottramO… okay. So let me ask you this. So in terms of, like, blockbusters that have come out this summer so far, I'm guessing you've seen them all.

29:11Jawad MirMost

29:12James Mottram... I mean, m… I, like, for example, F1. Now, I thought F1 was fantastically filmed. Fan… I saw it in the IMAX in Leicester Square in London. It looked, it looked gorgeous, but I thought the story was terrible and really corny. And so I, you know, I marked it down on that for that basis. Whereas I did enjoy the Jurassic story. Yes, we've sort of seen this kind of thing before, but I thought it prep… it clipped along well enough that I wasn't, I didn't question it too much. Whereas F1 I thought was so, despite the amazing visuals, I thought was so cheesy that I was like, "Oh, no." Mission Impossible 8 kind of wrapped it all up, but again, had its flaws. I don't know. I would put it as the best blockbuster of this summer so far, which is pretty much what the re… reviewer at the, at the Telegraph in the UK said. He said, "Well, if there's a better blockbuster this summer, I'll be surprised." But, I mean, there's still a couple, I think, to come out. But yeah.

30:14James MottramI don't know. How do you feel? Where do you place it in the, in the rankings?

30:17Jawad MirSo I haven't seen F1 yet. I'm going to see it, this weekend or, on next week. But I will tell you which films I have w… I was pleasantly surprised by this summer. I was really surprised by Lilo & Stitch. I don't know if you've seen that.

30:33James MottramOf course. I love Lilo & Stitch, but…

30:35Jawad MirRight? I mean, I love the animated version. I wasn't gonna go watch the r… the live version. My kids and my nephews and nieces went, and they said they were pleasantly surprised.

30:44James MottramThere you go.

30:44Jawad MirThere you go. There you go So I went to see that, which I spoke to... I had somebody on the podcast, the cinematographer, and I told him that, I'm going back to your point, but I'm just kind of re… s… saying something else here. I told him it reminded me of the film from the '90s, Monkey Trouble. It was very grounded. Again, the colors were great.

31:04James MottramIs that the one with Harvey Cartel?

31:06Jawad MirYeah. And what was that girl's name? She was in American Beauty as well.

31:11James MottramThora Birch?

31:12Jawad MirYeah. She was, like, a little child star at the time. So it was very grounded, and I enjoyed that. This, same thing with Jurassic, World Rebirth, it reminded me... Maybe it's nostalgia, I don't know. Mission Impossible, I thought it was better than the last film. But my biggest problem with that was, which I learned not to do with Jurassic World, was I saw too many clips, and I don't know if that was the reason I didn't enjoy it. Even though it was great, it was entertaining. Tom Cruise at his best. I haven't seen How to Train Your Dragon. I've seen a few others that I'm not remembering right now. But yes, I think all in all, out, I don't think there will be a film this... Forget this summer, I think this year that is gonna beat out Jurassic World.

31:53James MottramWell…

31:53Jawad MirI don't think, I…

31:54James MottramMay be in terms of box office, Avatar will beat Avatar 3.

31:59Jawad MirOh, is that coming out this year?

32:00James MottramI think so. Isn't it at the end of Dec… isn't it December? Late December though, so really the box office will be next year. But…

32:09Jawad MirYeah

32:10James Mottram... I mean, if you think…

32:10Jawad MirYeah

32:11James Mottram... About, if you think about Dominion, where the reviews were really vicious, they were savage, frankly. And yet albeit it just got over a billion dollars, but it still made a billion dollars despite bad reviews. And, you know, Fallen Kingdom, I think the reviews were so-so as well, or at least undecided, and yet that still made a ton of money as well. So I am, I am, I would put money on this going…

32:38Jawad MirYeah

32:38James Mottram... Over a billion dollars. Al… or I mean, you know, Dominion came in 2022, just after sort of COVID was beginning to kind of recede, and even then people were sort of still being cautious about going back to cinemas. I think that's less so now. So it's, it's the most fun summer movie I've, I've encountered. I think I can see why people will go and see F1 because es… especially an older crowd, I think people have said, "Oh, it's kind of for the dads," and all that stuff, and I agree with that. I think people will... You know, and you, and that's, it's strange you mention the nostalgia of Jurassic World Rebirth, you know, going back into the '90s. F1 is like watching a, an old school Jerry Bruckheimer film. And, you know, there's pros and cons of that, I have to say. But yeah, the story just completely took me out of it. That said, you know, you might enjoy it, so we'll see. I think you'll enjoy the visuals. But, I just think the Jurassic fan base, which is huge and loyal, they will come out for this.

33:39James MottramI mean, you know, I've seen a couple of people, some, you know, some guys I know that are really hardcore Jurassic fans. One of them is a bit, like, you know, he said it didn't really expand the mythology of the franchise, and that's true. I don't think you learn a great deal more. I mean, you know, we see right at the beginning, I don't think this is too much of a giveaway, but this sort of InGen laboratory that's on the island where they've been... You know, how many islands, by the way, has John Hammond got…

34:10Jawad MirI don't know

34:10James Mottram... That did research and development for his damn theme park? But, you know, and that opening sequence, without giving too much away, is a throwback to the opening sequence of Jurassic Park…

34:23Jawad MirYeah

34:23James Mottram... I have to say. What, again, what did you think, and I wasn't totally up, on board with this, but the fact that this laboratory has been creating sort of genetic mutations of dinosaurs, I think it's pretty clear by now, this is well out in the public domain, that there's a big new dinosaur that's obviously some sort of genetic mutation. I wasn't that keen on that as an e… as an element for the story. I thought it was fine, but I don't know. I didn't think that creature beat the T-Rex. You know, the T-Rex is still the mother of all dinosaurs.

35:02Jawad MirI agree, but I don't, so I'll tell you why. So if you look at it from... Here's something that I've learned recently, where sometimes you have to sort of accept the fact that this is not a real life, this is a movie. So you have to come up with something new for the audience to be engaged with. Okay, we have seen, like, six Jurassic films, and most of them, if not, I think two of them had some genetically modified dinosaurs, if I'm not mistaken. And there was, like, one in each film. So now they wanna go all out. So how do you bring that audience in from a different standpoint? Does it beat out T-Rex? No. And I thought there would be T-Rex appearance later in the film. But the way they executed the last scene with the smog and, I mean, I don't wanna give anything away, and there's a scene with the light sequence and all that.

35:55James MottramYou mean, you mean with the flare, right?

35:57Jawad MirYeah. With…

35:58James MottramYeah

35:58Jawad Mir... With the flare, but then the, there's a scene of a helicopter going and coming back from behind the fog or behind the smoke, whatever that was. Then you don't know... You know where I'm going with this, right? So I think that Gareth's ability to create these terrifying, suspenseful moment didn't necessarily... I didn't feel, I didn't think I compared him, D… D-Rex to T-Rex, but I was okay with it because we have seen the whole T-Rex thing so many times in the end, in so many different films. We saw it in the Dominion. We kinda saw it in the first Jurassic World, right? If I'm not, my memory's serving. So I think it was a different approach, but you're right, T-Rex is T-Rex. I mean, a lot of people love T-Rex, but I thought the D-Rex thing was, it had a little bit of a design of Alien… I'm not sure if you picked that up

36:55James MottramAnd, I didn't particularly, but I know that's what they've, they've gone back to Giger's designs for Alien. That was one of their influences.

37:02Jawad MirOkay

37:02James MottramAlong with the, along with the Rancor from Return of the Jedi.

37:06Jawad MirYes. So I'm, I was okay with it because I think how many, how many things... A… and the whole thing of mythology that you talked about, one of the Jurassic Park fans, I'm okay without that too, because I don't want explanations about this and that. We've had that so many times in so many films. I'm just going there to be entertained, and there were some human elements in there, some really feel-good moments, some really terrifying moments, and, you know, there was no, like... Sometimes act three in most great f… good films falls apart. With this one, it didn't for me.

37:39James MottramYeah, it's funny. I've seen other people... I di… I didn't have a problem with the finale, and we won't, we won't go into it too much of course, but, eh, some people I've s… I've spoken to said, oh, they thought it was too abrupt. They didn't... A… a… and but I don't think the finale is the best element of the film. I think there are better sequences earlier in the film, but I thought it was fine. It worked well enough. And I was thinking all the way through it, you know, as you mentioned, the sort of smoke and the helicopters and the flares, that was making me, giving me severe Apocalypse Now vibes.

38:13Jawad MirYes.

38:13James MottramI'm in no way comparing this film to Apocalypse Now, by the way, which is one of the great films of all time. But, you know, there's a little bit of that jungle stuff going on there. We should also, I think, talk about the Easter eggs, and I'm curious to see what you think about that. So the first couple are pretty obvious. There's r… when they're... You mentioned New York, so you get to in New York very early on where the Rupert Friend character, the guy who is from the pharmaceutical company, Martin Krebs, he's in his car and you see the object seen closer

38:47Jawad MirYes

38:47James Mottram... Message that's written on the wing mirror of the car, which of course harks back to the first film and the Jeep when they're being chased by the T-rex. And then not long afterwards they go to the museum where, Loomis works and you see the, when dinosaurs ruled the earth banner falling down.

39:03Jawad MirYeah

39:03James MottramWhich I thought was a really clever way of saying dinosaurs aren't popular anymore. And so there were those nods, and then there's one I haven't spotted, but I'm, I read about it in the production notes, so I'm very keen to go back and look at this a second time, 'cause I bet it's a blink and you'll miss it moment. When they're on the island and there's that gas station, with a mini mart, which obviously also gives you Lost World vibes, 'cause there was a similar location in Lost World. But apparently the art direction team stacked the mini mart with, like, magazines and things referencing, like, Back to the Future, Poltergeist, all of those kind of Spielberg produced movies from the '80s. Now I don't know how clear that is on camera. I need to go back and check that out. But I, again, I thought all of those little touches were... Of course the fans are gonna spot those early ones. And again, I'm not sure how clear the magazines are in the mini mart, but they're just like little affectionate nods again to Spielberg to basically say, this guy, he's the master basically.

40:09James MottramHe's, he's the man that has brought us these dreams over the last 50 years. I mean it's funny that it's 50 years this year since Jaws came out which, you know, for me is still absolutely untouchable. I put that movie above Jurassic Park, I have to admit that and y… I just think that movie is... Y… you n… he's n… he's never touched that movie again. He's done different movies that are incredible but Jaws is just such a perfect piece of work that, I don't know, for me that is... It's so weird that it came so early in his career but, yeah, I don't know. There's, there's nothing that touches Jaws really.

40:47Jawad MirI did notice all those Easter eggs and there was a trailer just before the film of Jaws 50 at the anniversary re-release on August 29th. And just watching that on the big screen before a Jurassic film, you have no idea how amazing that felt. I mean, like, let me put it this way. That whole experience in the movie theater from the moment the preview started until the credits start rolling I will never forget. Because I... You know when you get that feeling that I wish I could go back in time and re-experience that for the first time without kn… I would love to do that. That's how great this film was. Plus the previews. 'Cause I was just so... I mean there were some... I shouldn't have gone in like an afternoon screening. There was little kids and adults having conversation which really b… bothered me but the film really pulled me in that I forgot about it and hats off to Gareth. I mean I've been a fan of his for 15 years and I think I always will be and he has done a phenomenal job and, yeah.

41:54Jawad MirI mean I can't... I noticed a lot of those things about the Lost World and, I haven't seen the magazines but I heard about it. I have... I'll go to see the movie again. I'm gonna go check it out again.

42:06James MottramI think it's something you won't really see on screen. Maybe when you…

42:09Jawad MirI don't care. I'll still go.

42:11James MottramYeah. But maybe when... No I'm going again. I'm gonna go and see it this week like in a public screening or next week, when it sort of dies down a little bit. 'Cause I wanna see it again and see how I feel on a second time. It's always weird with any film when you see it a second time 'cause your feelings are not necessarily gonna be the same as when you saw it first time and... But I'm gonna be as curious to see like what the person I'm gonna go with, what they make of, you know what they make of it and if they have the same reaction that I had first time around. We'll see. But yeah I will be looking out for the magazines just in case.

42:48Jawad MirI will say one little thing. So I w… even though that won't happen but I hope Universal including Emelin learned this from the actual theme of the film which is in the opening that, you know they talk about that how… there was a dialogue by Jonathan Bailey is that how the, you know, five years ago, there would be like a five-hour wait to get into the museum, but now that they're everywhere, nobody cares. Same analogy, too many films, people are not gonna care. Let's just end it right now.

43:22James MottramOkay. Well, that's a, it's a, that's a very good point, and I think that is quite a self-referential moment in the film. But given that, as we've said multiple times through this chat, Universal almost certainly will buy off…

43:34Jawad MirI know, I know

43:34James Mottram... I mean, when I spoke…

43:35Jawad MirI know

43:35James Mottram... To David Koepp, of course, I had to ask him at the end, are you, have you had check... 'Cause basically that, I don't know if we didn't really touch on this, but the re… the reason it started, it happened so quickly, because it is an insane turnaround for... 'Cause they, Gareth wasn't even announced as the director until February 2024.

43:54Jawad MirYeah.

43:54James MottramAnd they finished shooting by sort of September, October 2024. I know that the composer didn't, saw a rough cut in early December, and then started w… w… working on the score. And obviously they had all the visual effects to get done in all of that time. I mean, that's an insane schedule, but, you know, it started 'cause Spielberg sort of contacted David Koepp and said, "Do you fancy just batting round some ideas for another one?" So they spent a few months, I guess this would've been, I don't know, maybe 2022. It's hard to say. But, you know, they, Spielberg apparently his, one of his earliest ideas, and I don't think this plays out in the movie, but maybe you can tell me differently. One of his earliest ideas was the idea of bringing back the Mosasaur, you know, this huge aquatic dinosaur creature. And apparently it was sort of feasting on fishing grounds. Now I don't think that plays out in the, that's not really mentioned in the, in the final movie.

44:50Jawad MirNo.

44:50James MottramBut that was sort of a starting point, so obviously they knew they were gonna bring that creature back. And then obviously, you know, back and forth over the next few months, they developed these ideas. So, obviously I said to Koepp at the end, "Ha… have you c… considered, a..." Well, what would it be? Number eight. Basically an eighth idea. And he said they'd sort of had conversations, but right now they're concentrating on another project that he's written, that Spielberg has just finished directing, which as you probably know, is this sort of as yet untitled secret, possibly sci-fi film, which apparently they've just shown footage of.

45:33Jawad MirYep. I read that.

45:34James MottramAnd there's this, yeah, there was this kind of a launch of this very posh screening room at Universal's

45:40Jawad MirSteven Spielberg Theater.

45:41James MottramYep, exactly. And he showed some clips from it, and it's like lots of people in suits chasing after Emily Blunt and Josh O'Connor. Sounds exciting. God knows what it will be about, whether it's back to, I don't know, Close Encounters or something like that. We'll find out. But obviously they're, they're concentrating on that, so they, you know, they're only at the very tentative stages of thinking about number eight, if they even go ahead with it. But what I wanted to ask you is, where do you think it could go? The, to make it not just a retread. I mean, that's, obviously that's like if you come up with a really good idea, then frank… frankly you should be writing it. But,... I can't see what they would do, you know? It feels like, well, you've done the, you've done the dinosaurs in the world, you've done the dinosaur theme park, you've done the kind of Mission Impossible style adventure. I don't know what you do now. I mean, it's dinosaurs on the moon? Who knows.

46:34Jawad MirI honestly don't know either. I mean, the only thing I can think of is another lab, another island, another site B or site C or site D. But they really have to come up with something. The problem is, which will probably... Eventually, you know, everything has a rise and fall, right? So Jurassic, as you and I have talked about this, that how we didn't realize how big of a fan base it is, it had, right? Like in the last eight, 10 years, like the merchandise has gone through the roof. I mean, they made ridiculous amount of money in merchandise, so obviously they're, they're cashing on that too. The question becomes is, when is it gonna go downhill? And it will. So how do you avoid that? By coming up with something original. What that original idea is, I mean, they've explored almost everything, unless, like you said, it's going on the moon or,.. I don't know. I have no idea, to be honest. Maybe I should come up with something and pitch them, but, it's, it's gonna be hard to beat. And I think the key here is, to me, if they can figure out, they can maybe recycle a lot of sites Bs or whatever, all those ideas.

47:42Jawad MirAs long as they can pull off a good scare and a decent story, I don't think audience is gonna care.

47:50James MottramYeah.

47:51Jawad MirSo…

47:51James MottramIt's kind of like the James Bond situation at the moment. Like how do they relaunch Bond, having killed him off effectively with Daniel Craig, which they'd never done before. Now of course, they've just got in Denis Villeneuve, which is fantastic. I'm a big, I'm on board, I'm on board with that idea, because he's such a stylish filmmaker who knows how to put a blockbuster together. They're, you know, the early word is they're looking at the likes of Tom Holland, Harris Dickinson, and Jacob Elordi as young, a young-ish, that's basically around about the age of un… 28, 29. So it would be a young Bond again. Maybe that's the right way to go about it, but of course we've been there before, we did it with Craig, you know. So I don't know how they, how they fix that problem either. I mean, and oddly, there was talk about Christopher, it's probably total rumors, but there was talk about, well, it was rumors, but talk about Christopher Nolan, who'd al… is a huge Bond fan, wanting to do the first two books, i… the first two Ian Fleming books back in period.

48:54James MottramSo back in the '60s, et cetera, et cetera. And that got me thinking about The Lost World. I'm talking here about the Crichton novel, The Lost World, which is very different in a lot of ways to the film. And I wonder if they left it for a while, whether they just go, "You know what? Let's remake The Lost World, but do it in…" do it faithful to the book. Now, that means remaking a Spielberg film, which is pretty much you just don't do it, do you? But, I'd be interested to see if they would do something, you know, go back to that book because there's a lot that was not done in the original movie. And you could make it bloody, you could make it nasty, which is what that book is, much nastier than the original Jurassic Park book, and that's pretty nasty in places in the book. But that's the only thing I can think of that would be different and yet still very connected to the whole franchise. But I doubt they would do that.

49:47Jawad MirMaybe we should…

49:47James Mottram'Cause it also... Well, I was gonna say, it also means recasting Alan Grant, et cetera. Or actually, no, rather Jeff Goldblum, isn't it? So, who's in that book. But yeah, I just... Yeah, I don't... Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. But, I can't think what they're gonna do.

50:03Jawad MirI think, I'm sure you know about this story, as we sort of wrap it up. Originally, I don't know how true it is in term maybe, you know, in media, they try to dramatize stuff and kind of embellish stuff. James Cameron and Spielberg were going, were up against each other to get the, rights to Jurassic Park, and Spielberg apparently edged out by 30 minutes or an hour, which I think it's embellishing it. But watching a James Cameron Jurassic Park kind of like Aliens, that would be crazy.

50:35James MottramYeah.

50:35Jawad MirI mean, that whole concept of Aliens where it's, like, military and, you know, a group of, like... Kind of like Predator, Aliens, and I… that could be really cool.

50:46James MottramWell, the other thing is there's, the unmade, I think it was John Sayles' script, which is completely barmy, basically. That was, that was around the time of after Jurassic Park III, and they were kicking ideas around for a fourth one, and that's got some crazy ideas in it. So maybe if they went completely bonkers and did something like that would be interesting if they went back to that script, for example. But yeah, I mean, Cameron doing a more military style Jurassic film, no, I'd be on board with that one. I think we'd all be on board with that, especially after three Avatar movies. It'd be like, why not? Why not get Cameron in? I mean, he's probably... You know, Gareth was a fantastic choice. As soon as I heard that name, I was like, "Oh yeah, that's perfect."

51:30Jawad MirYeah.

51:30James MottramBut Ca… Cameron would be just as perfect to do, to do a Jurassic movie.

51:36Jawad MirLet's hope that happens. Always a pleasure talking to you, man. Thank you so much for your time. And yeah, let's, let's do it again, and appreciate it.

51:45James MottramNo problem. Take care, mate.