Casting 'Samia', Cassandra Han & Lorenzo Viti

0:00Guest 1They live in Kenya. I mean, like the little boy, for example, it was crazy 'cause they lost him for a certain period of time. We had cast him and then... I mean, it's, you know, it's really not, like, you know, Western conditions of, you know. I mean, obviously there's no agent. You know, you're talking to the parents. You have to,.. And actually we're talking, I'm talking to a local person in Kenya who's talking to a translator who's talking to the parents. Then at some point he was, like, part of some sort of nomadic, group, and at some point after we had decided, for him, he, that nomadic group moved on, and then they lost him. And so then we were like, "What?" I was like, "What?" And then it took the, casting, the local cast, Kenyan casting had to go and she eventually found him.

0:58Jawad MirWelcome back, everyone, to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast, The Making of Stories. Today my guests are Cassandra Hann and Lorenzo Vitti. They're casting directors who have worked on several films, but today they are here to talk about a very special film that came out last year, premiered at Tribeca, premiered at TIFF. It's called Samia, based on a true story of an athlete and how she goes through struggles to get to where she wants to be in life. It was a lovely conversation. We talked about the casting process, the challenges they faced casting, Samia, looking for actors everywhere, and how they were able to help bring the story of Samia to life. Because as you know it, if you have a great script and you have great casting, more or less everything else sort of falls into place as far as a good film or great film is concerned. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Cassandra and Lorenzo for Samia. Thank you for, doing this. I appreciate it. I actually had the…

1:58Guest 1Of course

1:58Jawad Mir... Pleasure of just finishing Samia right now.

2:02Guest 1Oh

2:02Jawad Mir... Really liked the film. I actually didn't know much about the story, in terms of how the real story went down, and, even at the last minute I was expecting the film to go in one direction, but it didn't. So… But a really well-done film, and most of it, I mean, obviously it's a great script, a great story, but the casting that you guys did was phenomenal. The actors were amazing.

2:28Guest 1It's so insane because literally there wasn't a... I mean, there was maybe one or two that had done, like, a short, but pretty much, like, feature film s… on-screen debut for many, and, feature debut or... I can't remember if any, like, who has done, like…

2:46Jawad MirThe lead…

2:46Guest 1Somebody had done…

2:46Jawad Mir... Debuted

2:47Guest 1... No. Never done anything. Yeah, exactly. And actually very funny, funnily, the girl who played the best friend, Lorenzo did the auditions with her in Rome, and she thought she was going to a catering, interview, and she continued to think that until she was like, she was like, "Why are they giving me…"

3:08Jawad MirAnd speak any English when she start casting. She was…

3:11Guest 1Yeah. She was…

3:11Jawad MirShe…

3:11Guest 1She was like, "Why are they, why are they giving me these things to read?" And then she was like, "Okay," but she thought it was a catering job the entire time, and then she was like, "Oh," then she could finally understand it was a, it was a film. But it took her a really long time. I love that. It's very funny. So catering…

3:28Jawad MirThat's awesome

3:28Guest 1... Casting. It's all very... Yeah, exactly.

3:31Jawad MirThat's awesome.

3:32Guest 1But yeah.

3:32Jawad MirThat's awesome. I'll get to the, Samia and casting in a bit. I just kinda wanna go back to, you know, in the line of business that you guys are in, casting is a very important aspect of film. Everything is, but it can make or break the film, you know, even if the script is great. How did you guys get into that world? Was it always casting, or was it something else in the film world and it kinda deviated to casting? If you can run that story. Each one of you

4:03Guest 1Yeah

4:03Jawad Mir... Whoever wants to start first.

4:05Guest 2You go first.

4:05Guest 1Lorenzo. No? You wanna go first. So I worked for a Broadway producer in the very early '90s, and just randomly there was a show called Love Letters, which was, like, they had a Broadway show, and then they had, like, five or six licenses of the show and, like, tours, national tours. And they had a casting director, but, like, every week…... They needed, like, two new coup… a new couple. And it's became a lot, and so then I just started working, just helping with that process. But at that time it was, like, just, you know, it was just sort of a side thing that I did at the producing, the producer's office. And then over time I started, when I started first working in film, I did extras for a movie, with Sheila Jaffe and JoAnn Walken. They were the casting directors. And then I just kind of started working for them a bit as an assistant. And then, I started getting hired to do it, quite a bit.

5:07Guest 1But I have to say it was really, like, a, it was, like, a money gig for me 'cause I had this theater company. Like, you know, we're doing this whole, like, Ethan Hawke and all these, like, young actors, and I had to, like, make money while that was going on. And so it was sort of just, like, a gig thing for me. And then that continued for a number of years. And then when I moved to Europe, I completely stopped for about 10 years, thinking I couldn't do it here. And then, what, about 10 years ago it sort of came back, in, the region of Italy that we lived in. They needed somebody to do casting, so I started. And then I brought Lorenzo along.

5:47Jawad MirNice. Nice. Lorenzo, what's your version of the story?

5:49Guest 2I'm a…

5:50Guest 1Yeah, exactly.

5:50Guest 2... Actually originally an architect. Trained architect. Worked 15 years as an architect till, 20 years ago, till I met Cassandra. And then, yeah, so 11 years ago, so 10, 11 years ago, in this region where there was a pretty big film fund In the Alps where a lot of Italian and German productions were shooting. We started first with some local roles for productions that were shooting there. And, I was helping Cassandra with the casting, but then mainly doing, like, the extras or involved in doing the extras for these movies that, in any case, those productions needed. And so that was a great experience for me also to start in it while looking over the shoulder of Cassandra. And, yeah, there was 10 years of casting. We did also the extras for, like, you know, you happen to have, living in a region like this, like Terrence Malick shooting there because he had to represent, like, a mountain, Austrian mountain story during the Second World War.

6:54Guest 2So you get to work with someone like Terrence Malick even if you are, like, in the Dolomites…

6:59Jawad MirRight

6:59Guest 2... With casting. So the chances were quite a few to work on interesting projects, and more and more with Cassandra's background and experience, of course she could reach out and get more, overview on projects that were actually maybe playing outside of South Tyrol until we decided, well, we also move then outside as there was more visibility with more contact, and we can work, continue working on Italian, German, mainly now German projects. And of course, Cassandra being American, a lot of international projects shooting here to find maybe English-speaking roles. So it's pretty varied. That's how we got there.

7:38Jawad MirRight. You know, casting is one of those things, you know, when you do auditions, even for people who are, very well-established, sometimes they even have to go through auditions. It's just one of the processes.

7:49Guest 1Yeah, sure.

7:50Jawad MirAnd you, I mean, I end up seeing a lot of audition tapes from, like, '80s and '90s of popular films of…

7:56Guest 1Yeah

7:56Jawad Mir... Who got the role and who didn't. Sometimes it can be, quite, what's the word I'm looking for? Too much, right? Like, it's like you're literally get people coming in nonstop. How does that process go for you guys where sometimes you get, might get so tired, not you as in you, as in anybody doing casting, that they may overlook somebody because of that nor… you know, regular number of auditions that you're taking place? What's the process of like that, and how do you overcome any kind of those obstacles where you don't overlook anyone as much as you try not to?

8:32Guest 1I would say that actually the problem nowadays, and especially on the European market, is actually the opposite. It's like, pushing to have, more actors seen and to take into consideration. Because what tends to happen is, you know, I don't know, the broadcaster or the television station, especially in network television, like kind of German network television, it's very limited the list of people that they wanna see. And, so I, yeah, I do a lot of my energy and our energy is spent in trying to open up the field and trying to, get kind of permission to, you know, to try something really different, to open it up and to, you know, to see a wider range of actors, because it can be very show reel based. So it's like people decide who's gonna audition based on the show reel, which I think is kind of dangerous because then it's like, oh, they play a banker on the show reel, so this is a lawyer, so they're perfect for it, you know?

9:38Guest 1So it's like, it's, it's often, trying to... And I… it's actually been quite, well-received, I think, in Germany, in Europe in general, but, the process is a little bit, backwards. So instead of having the casting director go out and do sort of like a few rounds of exploratory casting and really try to, you know, see who's, who's right for it, see who's out for there, try some people that don't quite fit exactly in the box that you expect, and then you take the results of that to the director and to the team. And whereas in Europe, it's more common for the director and the team to discuss the actors based on their knowledge of them and the show reel, and then, you know, you go into the casting process. So, I had to kind of pitch it when I was first doing. I was like, "I'm gonna do some exploratory casting. What do you think about that?" You know? And that's, it's gone over really well and, it's, it's just, you know, like sometimes you find somebody that was not at all what was written.

10:38Guest 1And then I've even had them many times, like, change the script to fit that actor because... But you can't, you can't do that if you're deciding together as a group who to audition because that doesn't, it just, it doesn't happen. It's a very limited list. Sorry, long answer, but that's…

10:54Jawad MirNo, that makes sense

10:54Guest 1... It's complicated a little bit.

10:56Guest 2But yeah, but then going through deep and wide, then you have to end up very often watching 4… or 500 tapes, and then you…

11:02Guest 1Yeah, sure. Of course. Yeah, you do

11:04Guest 2... It is almost…

11:06Guest 1Yeah. I mean, for…

11:06Guest 2... Impossible

11:06Guest 1... For certain roles, I don't feel comfortable without auditioning several hundred. I mean, like, I, we just did this, movie, The Wait, with Ethan Hawke and Russell Crowe, and, like, for the little girl, she's really pivotal to the story, and I really had to see a lot of actors for that, but it was so clear the minute that character shows up on screen, you know? And everybody's like, "Oh my God, yeah, she's it," you know? "She's perfect." So that's, yeah. It's, you get a sort of a sixth sense about it.

11:36Jawad MirYeah

11:36Guest 1... Sometimes you…

11:36Jawad MirInteresting

11:37Guest 1... Sometimes you think, "Okay, I've gotta, I have to research that more," and sometimes, like, the person that you think before you go into the process is gonna be perfect for it, they don't quite, just doesn't sit on them quite perfectly. So it's, it's really like I really try to do auditions as much as possible.

11:57Jawad MirAnd has there been a time where, you know, there was somebody who auditioned for a role for a film, among the 500 or 200, whatever the number is, but it, they struck to you but didn't fit the part, but then somehow that same person kinda came into memory la… years later and they were set up another project? Has that ever occurred to you guys?

12:20Guest 1Oh, yeah. It happens all the time. I just... One of the lead actor in the, this Paramount Plus series, that we did, Ein Billion Dollar in German and One Trillion Dollars in English, he c… he auditioned, like, a year before for another project, and he wasn't quite right for that role. But that tape, was so good and that's how he got the other role was because of that, or because of, you know, that process. And I said, "Okay. Wow, he's perfect," and then we moved on, and then he did several auditions, and he got it.

12:55Jawad MirThat's interesting. You know, you must have seen Henry Thomas audition for ET

13:00Guest 1Yeah

13:00Jawad Mir... On YouTube, right? I mean, that's…

13:02Guest 1Yeah

13:02Jawad Mir... An amazing audition, and he just got the role right there. And then Quentin Tarantino's story of, for Inglourious Basterds…

13:11Guest 1Christoph Waltz

13:12Jawad MirYeah.

13:12Guest 1Yeah.

13:12Jawad MirChristoph Waltz, how he almost... They said, "If we're not gonna find somebody who speaks all these languages, we're… I'm not gonna do it." And the next day he showed up, who had never... Who was struggling throughout his career, and then he won Oscars. I know he won one at least at the end. I know he got nominated…

13:27Guest 1Yeah

13:27Jawad Mir... Twice.

13:28Guest 1Yeah, absolutely.

13:29Jawad MirSo again, like, you know, those, that casting process, how much of a connection, I'm sure you do, but just for the audience, like, that you have with the director, how much of a back and forth, or with the producer that you go, "Okay," you know, who you're looking for, what kind of personality, what your character is about, et cetera. What is that like, your relationship with the director/producer?

13:51Guest 1It's always really hand in hand, you know? It's like... But you do get, at a certain point, you get to the... And also that's why it's great to work with directors more than once, you know, 'cause it kind of takes some, a little bit of time to get to know their taste. But usually by a couple weeks into it, I know, exactly the dir… the, what the actor, what the director's gonna like and what they're not gonna like, you know? It's like, they very much,.. Like, there's an art house director I work with a lot, and he always wants this, like, slightly larger than life style, which is not super naturalistic. And the minute I see an audition, I can even tell the actor, "What you did was great, but, you know, try to, like, make it more stylized. Make it bigger because that's, like, what he's looking for." Of course, it's project dependent, but it's, it's also very much director dependent. So we're kind of like, yeah, we're, we're, we're always, like, in touch constantly with the directors and, constantly getting feedback and talking to them and asking a lot of questions about this character, what, you know, kind of, you know, what,..

14:58Guest 1Trying to really understand what the director's looking for. That's a, that's a major part of it. And also the producer, of course, because the producers have certain,.. You know, in some, in European auteur it's, it's way more the director. But then, like, in television or in streaming, it's, it's very much about what the producer is looking for.

15:15Guest 1And sometimes it's both, and sometimes they disagree. Sometimes they agree.

15:20Jawad MirRight. Lorenzo, do you wanna ad… add anything to that?

15:23Guest 2No, that's good. Thanks.

15:26Jawad MirOkay.

15:27Guest 2Just kidding.

15:28Jawad MirGreat. That's, that's what we all supposed to do, right? In terms of Samia, so tell me, whoever wants to take a, take a toll on this, or both of you. You know, there was the little Samia, there was the grown-up Samia, and then her brother, her family, you know. Those were the main characters. Obviously there were others. Just talking about that immediate circle, tell me the story of getting at least the younger and the older Samia, how it went through, the hurdles that you guys faced, the challenges and all that.

16:00Guest 1Lorenzo did a ton of Samia, so I'll let you talk about that.

16:05Guest 2Well, I mean, the, starting from the older Samia, I mean, of course we started looking at what actors are out there, and we were looking, well, mainly there, finding professional actors that some… Somali actors with some experience. We looked, into, the UK, where we had found, like, a great possible actress who could play that. But then for example, there was also an interesting part of this casting process where we were getting into, you know, some cultural, differences and some cultural situations where, for example, the, this actress, she would not want to act without a scarf, over her head. And so in the case of this role, because of the time, the '90s, when Samia, and because of her character, Samia was running, was, when she was, you know, fighting also against the system that... I mean, it's still, like, pretty much like it was, but it was really pretty, fundamentalist at the time. And so one part was, like, getting the freedom of running around as a girl, and so also the hair.

17:08Guest 2So it didn't work, and so we started looking. They had actually started the process, like, a few years ago. They tried. So there had been some phases that we went through and there was n… nothing left. But there was one girl that had been taken consideration, I think by the director even, for the role that could have, yeah, still worked in terms of age. So she always stayed there in our mind. We kept looking, but in the end she did end up, the one who played it, and who had never done anything before, be really the right, the right person to carry that role. So that's for this…

17:47Guest 1But we had to look at the diaspora all over. So we went to Finland, you know, we looked in America, we looked in Canada. One of the actors came from Malaysia, Indonesia. I can't remember exactly where. And then they knew that they would shoot in Kenya. So the search for the children was, we had somebody on the ground, wonderful local casting director in Kenya, and she went around to all the schools and did, like, first, set of tapes, of videotapes, of, which was also very complicated, you know, politically and everything to get permission and et cetera. And then we also, yeah, we had, trips to different, yeah, all different countries. It was really wild going on.

18:32Guest 2It was adventurous and sometimes al… also almost dangerous 'cause we went to, like, to only to, Finland, I think. And I went to Italy, in three, four cities. Then we had at a certain point found, like, in, in Finland, actually, we found, the role for the father of Samia, Somali actor who had just done something before and he was touring to present this other movie, so he had experience. And he offered to, you know, help us also casting and finding on location, and he's from actually from Somaliland, so the coast…

19:09Guest 2... Near Djibouti…

19:09Guest 1Djibouti. Yeah. Yeah

19:10Guest 2... Where he came from. And so first he actually helped, I think, the director and the AD to go to Kenya when they were casting there for the kids together with the casting director, the local casting director. And then we asked if he could go since we couldn't go to Somalia. If he go to, he offered to in Somaliland to look. And so between him in Somaliland and actually someone else we contacted in Djibouti, which is kind of the French part of Somalia. Somalia was like, you know, had different, kind of colonizations. There was the French one, which is now relegated in Djibouti, which is the straightest. And Italians, and the main part of Somalia, and the Brits. So between Djibouti and, we've had them search and send us tapes and look. And actually, we ended up also searching in Somalia itself because the mother of the AD who was in contact with the product… production team for like some translation stuff, Somali woman who grew up there for the first 30 years before moving to a city. Actually went to visit family, so she contacted some relatives and kind of not too visibly she managed to invite in a courtyard of these houses some kids, sending us tapes to visualize.

20:20Guest 2And going back to the one, to that actor we had already practically chosen and cast for the role. When he was cast in Somaliland, he got in trouble. We were safely in Germany, but he got in trouble because he was contacting, like, people he knew because he comes from there. He's been living a long time in Finland that so he lost also a bit of the feeling of how things were going. So he put out through, I think, a social media, like a casting call, and he got then threatened by the, what do you call it, Cassie? The

20:53Guest 1By the imams and also…

20:55Guest 2The imam

20:55Guest 1Yeah

20:55Guest 2... Local imam because they are…

20:57Guest 1Exactly. Yeah

20:57Guest 2They were looking also for kids, but they were like kids trafficking kids with excuse of a movie. So it was like, "Oh."

21:04Guest 1It was very…

21:04Guest 2Very complicated

21:05Guest 1... Very difficult.

21:05Guest 2Let's just say we had to look very deep in complicated ways, mistakes…

21:09Guest 1And the whole visa…

21:10Guest 2... And very slowly

21:10Guest 1... The whole visa issue was super complicated.

21:13Guest 2Yeah. It was.

21:14Guest 1And it was, yeah, even our lead actress couldn't come. She missed the premiere in Tribeca. She ended up coming a couple days later, but because she was blocked from having the, to come to New York. So it was…

21:27Guest 2Somalia was hard

21:27Guest 1... The whole thing, yeah, the whole thing was it was just so hard. Yeah.

21:31Guest 2Wow.

21:34Jawad MirYeah. No, you know, when it comes to Somalia, like a lot of people know Somalia, reference it as, you know, comp… what happened in the '90s, the Black Hawk Down. There was a movie made…

21:45Guest 1Yeah

21:45Jawad Mir... About it and everything. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of movies that have come out from Somalia that don't necessarily reflect that part of Somalia. I mean, this did a great job in sort of humanizing that for the first good…

21:59Guest 1Yeah

21:59Jawad Mir... Part of the movie until…

22:01Guest 1Yeah

22:01Jawad Mir... Everything else kinda kicked in because that is a reality, you know, in some parts of it. When you guys, were finished casting, and the director and the producer or both, you know, gave the green light, then as a casting director for the audience, what does your role become? Or is that pretty much where it ends? Like, is there, is there anything after that?

22:27Guest 1It's, it's, it's very different in the, in Europe versus, the US and UK because, in the US and UK, and I do both, kind of types, but or we do both kind of types, but, the negotiation of the contracts is really like a huge task. And that's usually, yeah, we do that, on international projects. So that's the whole... I mean, you're not going all the way to like the long form agreement, but you're doing all of the negotiations. So that's, that can sometimes last a decent amount of time, and it can also be very strategic, and you have to like give good advice about what to, you know, what terms to accept and what not to. And it's, of course, those terms that are agreed upon will drastically affect the production going forward. So it's a very, you know, difficult part of it. We hardly ever, we went to set on that movie 'cause we loved it, but, it's usually we're kind of onto the next thing. So…

23:24Jawad MirThat's what I was gonna ask. Yeah.

23:26Guest 1Yeah, for sure. So I mean…

23:28Guest 2You're not really in touch with a…

23:30Guest 1Yeah

23:30Guest 2... Project until maybe you go to the premiere, but then you're not really part of the family who started production and carried on the production. You're the ones who worked before.

23:39Guest 1Yeah. And then sometimes it's a little weird, you know, 'cause you feel like part of this huge family, but then they don't know you 'cause you're not on set, you know?

23:45Jawad MirYeah.

23:45Guest 1And nobody, all the actors are like, "Well, of course, I was born to play this role." So there was never a time in their minds, you know, when it wasn't like in question bec… and then, you know, which is normal. And then they get into this big family thing, and you're like not part of the family, which is a little tough. But anyway, it's, for that particular movie, we loved the cast so much. We went down and visited and, you know, it was... We didn't get, we didn't get to go to Kenya, of course. That would be really expensive to get there, but we went to Bulgaria…

24:12Guest 2Most of the cast in Tribeca were at the premiere, so it was nice to see them.

24:15Guest 1Yeah. They were there, so that was great. And it was, I just, I just, I, when I see those two little kids, I'm just like every time my ears, my ears, my eyes just tear up because I just, it was so hard to find them, and I love them so much. And they're just, I don't know. They, for me, they're just, I mean, the whole cast, but especially the kids of course, were hard to, they were very hard to find, so.

24:41Jawad MirYeah. Has there been a time where, and this has happened obviously in Hollywood a lot, especially Back to the Future, where you guys casted somebody, the production starts, and then, you know, the director realizes that… This is not the right person for whatever reason, and then you have to sort of go back and recast. And even though the production is like 10% is in 20%. Have you guys come across of that story personally yet? No?

25:05Guest 1I have never, ever had that happen. No. I mean…

25:09Jawad MirBut do you hear about that happening m… more than often with other people, other casting?

25:13Guest 1Yeah, it's pretty hard, I have to say. I mean, I gotta admit some productions think that, you know, I'm always really, clear that once you make an offer and you start negotiating, it's like, you know, it's, it's... I mean, of course you could kind of…

25:28Jawad MirOkay

25:28Guest 1... Get out of the negotiation maybe if you ask…

25:29Guest 2Maybe it was wrong or the night seemed wrong than at the moment when they started.

25:32Guest 1You mean to, like, recast, like to fire and…

25:34Jawad MirYeah

25:34Guest 1... Recast? Yeah.

25:35Jawad MirYeah. You know, in Back to the Future, it was, I forget the ni… guy's name. They filmed p… pretty much 40% of the film.

25:43Guest 1huh.

25:43Jawad MirAnd then they had to bring in Michael J. Fox to reshoot…

25:46Guest 1Yeah. Yeah

25:46Jawad Mir... All of his scenes, right?

25:47Guest 1Yeah. Yeah.

25:48Jawad MirThat's a rare thing, but I'm just wondering if that has ever happened in your circle or in the comm… the people that you know in the casting agencies.

25:54Guest 1Knock on wood, never, no.

25:57Guest 2I think so.

25:58Guest 1No. Never had to recast like that. We had actually the one movie, the lead boy who was, like, 12 years old, the day before shooting he was playing in the playground and he fell…

26:11Jawad MirOh, my

26:11Guest 1... And he broke his leg.

26:13Jawad MirOh, God

26:13Guest 1... So we had to... Yeah, so we had to really cast, that quickly. We had some other people who were helping and stuff, so, and insurance, they were, like, on insurance hold for a few days.

26:22Guest 2A week, days, week before.

26:22Guest 1Yeah. So that was not even a week before.

26:24Guest 2It all happened.

26:24Guest 1It was really the day before. So we had, like, two or three days to get a replacement, but that wasn't like he was fired or anything, he just, yeah, he was, he hurt himself.

26:32Jawad MirThat's, that's, that's, that's bad luck for the kid.

26:35Guest 1Tragic. Yeah.

26:35Jawad MirRight? Yeah.

26:36Guest 1Yeah, totally.

26:37Guest 2Yeah. Looking forward.

26:40Jawad MirAre you in touch with these kids still? I mean, I, just because you said that, you know, you, they're pretty…

26:47Guest 2Yes. Yeah, I mean the South Sudanese…

26:48Guest 1No, not really. I mean, they're not even, you know…

26:51Guest 2The South Sudanese, yeah.

26:53Guest 1Oh, the South... Oh, no, those, I think you meant from…

26:55Guest 2No, the Buffalo Union down east

26:56Guest 1... We're talking about Samia?

26:57Jawad MirYeah.

26:57Guest 1Samia?

26:57Jawad MirWe're talking about Samia. Yeah.

26:58Guest 1Samia, yeah.

27:00Guest 2Yeah.

27:00Guest 1No. They live in Kenya. I mean, like the little boy for example, it was crazy 'cause they lost him for a certain period of time. We had cast him and then... I mean, it's, you know, it's really not, like, you know, Western conditions of, you know. I mean, obviously there's no agent. You know, you're talking to the parents. You have to,... And actually we're talking, I'm talking to a local person in Kenya who's talking to a translator who's talking to the parents. Do you know what I mean? So it's not like a…

27:27Jawad MirYeah

27:27Guest 1... And so we're, like, communicating back and forth and trying to, you know, But then at some point he was, like, part of some sort of nomadic, group. And at some point after we had decided, for him, he, that nomadic group moved on, and then they lost him. And so then we were like, "What?" You know what I mean? It was like, "What?" And then it took the, casting, the local ca… Kenyan casting had to go and fi… like go to pl… you know, she had to drive, like, across Kenya in a Jeep or something for, like, a whole day, and then, like, find. And she eventually found him, but it was, like, really hard. So they were not, like, in close contact, you know, with us at all. We're just, like, looking at the, at the tapes and, you know, and making decisions like that. But I mean, the director met with them in Kenya. So they had, you know, that. They brought them to Nairobi to have a meeting with her. But it was sort of a workshop.

28:27Guest 1They did, like, a workshop with, five or six kids per role. But yeah, th… this was not a huge budget film, so we weren't, we couldn't be flown to Kenya because we had somebody locally.

28:39Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, the reason I asked was, you know the film Captain Phillips with Tom Hanks and the…

28:43Guest 1Yeah, sure

28:44Jawad Mir... Somali pirates. I was r… I remember reading about this four or five years ago, the guy who played the leading pirate… ... And that how he was struggling to find work after that.

28:54Guest 1Yeah.

28:54Jawad MirLike, he just denied…

28:55Guest 2Yeah. No, we're in touch. We're in touch with the…

28:56Guest 1We were in touch with him

28:57Guest 2... One actor, actually, yeah. The one, who the friend of the father of Samia. We cast him from, I forget if it's Malaysia, I think. Malaysia. He had a Kenyan passport, and with the diaspora he had some relatives outside of Malaysia, but not in Somalia. And he's trying contact me, and we try to find papers to get him a European passport, a P… German passport. Try to come here. We've kind of figured out a way to hire him for something for a few months, but never worked out. You know, stopped him…

29:29Guest 2... From getting where he had a brother. But in his case, didn't work out.

29:34Guest 1Yeah, in his case I think it's, it's d… yeah, it's diff… I mean, of course there's a limited number of roles. And he's so identified, you know, so it's kind of a type casting type of situation.

29:44Jawad MirYeah, it is. It is.

29:45Guest 1I think of it, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's the, yeah, all actors. Not every actor, but a lot of actors have that problem of it.

29:52Jawad MirYeah. It's not even actors. I think it's also, like, directors, editors. The… everybody gets pigeonholed, you know…

29:57Guest 1Yeah. For sure

29:58Jawad Mir... Into doing one type of film. Obviously actor is more visible because they're right in front of the camera.

30:03Guest 1Yes. That's true.

30:04Jawad MirBut…

30:04Guest 1No, but you're right about that.

30:05Jawad MirRight?

30:05Guest 1Yeah.

30:05Jawad MirYeah.

30:06Guest 1Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely

30:07Jawad Mir... So, how do you guys work as a couple? And I'm sure there has, you know, been days where it's like this, and there's been days where it's like that. How do you, how do you deal with that, trying to keep your professional side, sides separate from your personal? I mean, it's hard, but still you have to do it.

30:24Guest 1Lorenzo?

30:27Guest 2Is it other than a professional side? No. We fi… it's just that we both love movies, so even when we finish, like, a 12, 14-year-old day, then we still then maybe end up watching…

30:40Guest 114-year long

30:41Guest 2... Three hours.

30:41Guest 114 hour long. He said year long.

30:44Guest 2Oh, no. Hour movie, so…

30:45Guest 1Yeah

30:45Jawad MirThat's probably your marriage duration, right? Do you remember that?

30:49Guest 1Yeah. 20 years.

30:51Guest 2We finish then still watch maybe two, three hours of a movie. Then he's got this beamer, so it, like, feels a little bit not watching TV, but then we just love it, so it's always kind of, it's always present in our…... Relationship.

31:04Jawad MirBut has there been a situation, and this is, like, a serious question, you know, we all are different no matter if we're siblings or, married to somebody else. Everybody has different opinions. Has there been a time where you guys sort of disputed... I mean, I know it's a director's call at the end of the day, but when you're trying to narrow down the list of people, has there been ever a time in any film where you guys disputed on a certain audition and how you sort of came over that? Or has it been pretty much everything in synergy, you know, when you're, when you, before you send the list to the director or producer?

31:39Guest 2Usually it's also, like, Cassandra that looks, like, the final tape, sometimes the final decision. When we are at auditions together and we look at, actors, then, yeah, for sure we discuss actors. But then I think we usually trust Cassandra final offer.

31:54Guest 1The, yeah, it's kind of…

31:55Guest 2She…

31:55Guest 1Our workload is kind of divided up a little bit. Like, there's, like, always a casting director…

32:00Guest 2Ah

32:00Guest 1... And then there's, like, an associate. So he's doing, usually associate work on the projects that I'm doing. He does his own projects as well, like he just did a short film. He did really a lot on Samia. And I was, you know, relying on him a lot. Also, you know, it's also gets broken up linguistically a little bit. So, like, Samia was an Italian production, okay, German director. But, he was, like, going out into the, kind of the field and doing. So I was listening to him really a lot about actors 'cause we're looking at the tapes or something, but then he was there with them shooting the video and stuff. So he had, like, a different perspective than I, that I, do. But normally, yeah, I…

32:44Guest 2But it's also not efficient to double up on the choice. I mean, the choice, Cassandra makes the choice.

32:48Guest 1Yeah.

32:48Guest 2Divide up work, you know, contacting the agents, that agents are doing different tasks for a project.

32:53Guest 1Yeah.

32:53Guest 2So it's not that we double down on the same thing, like whatever the choice.

32:57Guest 1Exactly. Exactly. And Lorenzo's…

32:59Guest 2But yeah

32:59Guest 1I mean, I'm b… reasonably fluent in Italian and German, but, and I work all the time in both languages, but Lorenzo's, like, a native speaker basically of both. And so, very often he's doing a lot of that, you know, talking to the agents and, you know, things that require, linguistic skills. Whereas I'm, like, staring at a screen most of the time.

33:25Jawad MirSo he gets the fun job…

33:26Guest 1Right

33:26Jawad Mir... And you get to stay in front of the screen.

33:27Guest 1He gets the fun job. I just sit in front of a screen. Yeah, exactly.

33:32Jawad MirWithout naming any names or anything, has there been a situation in a film where, you know, things didn't really pan out the way you guys want to when it came to, like, working with the production team? Or, you know, even when they're, after they hired you, whether it's negotiations or whether it's just a taste disagreement or whatnot. It's been pretty sm… smooth sailing once you're on board?

33:59Guest 1I mean, I have to say, I think, you know, I'm a, I'm a super adaptable person, so is Lorenzo. We're both, like, kind of global citizens. The difficulty is never, well, not maybe not never, is usually not, like, a problem with the way I work or Lorenzo works versus the way the company works. It's often a question of trying to merge, trying to be a bridge between, for example, like a UK agent and a European production.

34:27Guest 1Because the way that they think, the way they act, the way that everything, is, you know, goes forward is completely different. And unless you know, what, how... Like, it's like everybody makes assumptions about the way that the other person works. And so unless you kind of, like, strategically try to, go in front of that and, like, you know, like, fix it beforehand or s… kind of troubleshoot, that's when things get into a really, big... Because people get offended over something that's not really an offense, it's just a different way of working, you know? Or, yeah, people will get blindsided. So I do a lot of, telling people how other people are gonna behave. And then oddly, they don't believe it until it happens, and then they're like, "Oh. Oh, God. Okay, I see." You know? But this is, like, a constant…

35:20Guest 2Yeah

35:20Guest 1... Constant…

35:21Guest 2It remains constant the way all these…

35:23Guest 1Yeah, a constant issue

35:24Guest 2... Different cultures, you know, British, American, German, Italian, and when they're, and outside of these countries.

35:30Guest 1You have to be like a…

35:31Guest 2It's become…

35:32Guest 1... United Nations. Like, you have to be like a diplomat, you know?

35:35Jawad MirI…

35:36Guest 1To manage the cultural expectations

35:38Jawad Mir... I couldn't agree, I couldn't agree with you more because I remember, for one of the films when I was, trying to sell it, that I directed, Citizen Amoría, about a Afghan refugee. And my approach to people in the US and Canada was exactly the same as people in Europe. And long after I realized that, you know, and I always knew this, but in that process you forget that people in North America, especially in America, are more blunt and straightforward.

36:05Guest 1Yeah.

36:05Jawad MirLike, so am I. Europe, it's a completely different world. Like, people get…

36:11Guest 1Yeah

36:11Jawad Mir... Are walking on eggshells. I don't know what it is. A lot of people get offended very quickly. Am I correct to assess that?

36:17Guest 1Y… yeah, absolutely. And even between European countries, you know? If you're, if you're... I mean, we do a lot of, like, Italy-Germany mixing, and it's like, it's just really hard. So Lorenzo's, like, the king of that also because he grew up with, you know, all these different cultures and he speaks the languages. And so, and I kind of am more maybe like a UK-US translation. It's like, it's really a big part of what we do.

36:45Jawad MirYeah. Well, kudos to you guys. You talked about Ethan Hawke and Rocksteady Crew's next film. What's it called? Is there a title out for that yet? Or do you not…

36:53Guest 1It's called The Wait. The Wait. Yeah.

36:55Jawad MirThe Wait.

36:56Guest 1It's out. It's been announced, yeah.

36:59Jawad MirAnd, is it already in production?

37:01Guest 1They, well, we finished, they finished. We went up to see, we went up to set for that one. They finished what?

37:07Jawad MirYeah.

37:07Guest 1Like, a month ago. Yeah. They're edit… It's in post now.

37:10Jawad MirOkay. And what's that about premise-wise, just for the audience?

37:15Guest 1Yeah, sure. I think I'll just say what's in the news with this, in the trade magazines. It's, so it's, set in 1930s, during the Great Depression in Oregon. ... And they shot the whole thing here in Germany.

37:30Jawad MirBecause of tax credits, of course.

37:33Guest 1Yeah.

37:34Jawad MirYeah. I was gonna say…

37:34Guest 1They, I think they tried a couple places, yeah, to do it, and it's worked out really well here.

37:38Jawad MirI mean, I was gonna say, Oregon is such a beautiful state. You know, The Goonies was shot there, and it was set there.

37:43Guest 1Yeah. It's beautiful.

37:46Jawad MirRight, and…

37:46Guest 1It's crazy though because, like, I mean, of course I grew up on the, on, you know, in San Diego, but I was up, I used to go to the Pacific Northwest a lot, and I went into some of these forests in Bayern, in Bavaria, you know. And I'm like, "Oh my God, this is like these huge, tall trees." I mean, it looks just like it. So it's, they managed to find everything really well here, and they shot here in, around Munich, and then, and then up…

38:08Jawad MirNice. Nice

38:09Guest 1... In the, up in Bavaria. Yeah. Yeah. That was... I loved that. I loved our director. I loved everything, our producers. I loved the movie, the whole cast. I just, yeah, I love everything about it. I can't wait to see it.

38:21Jawad MirWho direct… who's di… who directed this?

38:23Guest 1His name's, Pa… You know what? His name is so hard to pronounce, so I call him Pat.

38:27Jawad MirOkay. Okay.

38:28Guest 1But it's Pad…

38:28Jawad MirI'll look it up. I'll look.

38:29Guest 1Yeah, Padraic McKinley. Pad… Patrick McKinley. But his name, it's, it's an Irish name, so it's P-A-D-R-A-I-C.

38:38Jawad MirIt sounds familiar. I may have seen some of his films.

38:41Guest 1He's a, he's a really well-known editor. This is his... And he's done TV. He's directed TV, and this is his feature film debut, and he's just... I mean, he was a dream. He was a dream for me to work with. He was a dream for the cast. He was just, he's just absolutely fantastic, his whole vision about it and everything. He developed it, you know, for a long time and the script and the project, and he's just, yeah, it was…

39:04Guest 2Yeah, everyone was great. The producers, I mean…

39:06Guest 1Oh, fantastic. We loved them. Loved that movie, yeah.

39:10Guest 2Great.

39:11Jawad MirIs there a director or a type of film genre-wise or location-wise that you haven't done that you would want to do?

39:21Guest 1Oh, interesting.

39:25Jawad MirI know normally that question is asked with a, from a editor or a producer…

39:29Guest 1Yeah. Yeah

39:30Jawad Mir... You know, an actor.

39:30Guest 1Yeah, sure.

39:31Jawad MirBut still, I'm sure there's something.

39:35Guest 1Yeah. That's a really good question. I... Have, is there something that I... I don't know. I gotta say I'm so, we're so lucky because we get to do…

39:47Guest 2Being here, you haven't done a fully American project, but, because you're here.

39:50Guest 1Well, technically The Wait was fully American. I mean, it was shot here, but it was an American project.

39:54Guest 2Yeah, but with actors that also came from Europe. But I mean, a full…

39:58Guest 1Yeah

39:58Guest 2... American cast, of course, doesn't make much sense…

40:01Guest 1Yeah

40:01Guest 2... Here, so.

40:01Guest 1Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't think it's, I don't think it's impossible. And I did stuff earlier in my, you know, at the beginning. But, I mean, I gotta just have a moment and say, like, I feel like we're really blessed because I don't think there's anything... I mean, of course, you know, every time you get a new exciting project and it's got, you know, a certain director or just, you know, somebody you've always wanted to work with, then yeah, fantastic. But I mean, we're just... We do everything. I mean, we do, you know, a lot of streaming. We do German language. We do Italian language. We do small art house films. We do big, you know, we've done big budget projects. We do, series. And so we're really blessed that we have a wide, variety of projects. I feel very... I mean, we've worked out of Poland, Middle East. Just did a Turkish movie. So yeah, it's fun. It's cool. I don't know that I have any... I mean, of course, always bigger, better project's always great, you know?

41:02Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

41:02Guest 1But I also love just, I love, you know, everything we get to do is fantastic. Maybe that's a stupid answer, but

41:11Jawad MirNo. It's not a stupid answer. You know…

41:13Guest 1I have no more dreams.

41:15Jawad MirI think, I think what happens is that, you know, when we're growing up, we all have these wild ambition ideas and goals, which is great, and it's fantastic. We should. But I think as we go later in life, if that comes, it's great.

41:32Guest 1Yeah.

41:32Jawad MirIf it doesn't come, we're still happy with where we are, right?

41:35Guest 2Enjoy the process anyway.

41:37Jawad MirYeah, exactly.

41:37Guest 1Yeah.

41:37Jawad MirEnjoy the process.

41:38Guest 1Yeah.

41:38Jawad MirThat's the key.

41:39Guest 1Enjoy the process. Enjoy the journey.

41:40Jawad MirYeah.

41:41Guest 1Yeah.

41:41Jawad MirYeah. Tur… you mentioned Turkish. Turkish TV is actually pretty big. Netflix has been doing a lot of Turkish shows, and they're very high-end production and stuff.

41:52Guest 1Yeah. The project I did was, that's coming out on Friday actually.

41:56Jawad MirTomorrow.

41:56Guest 1It's, yeah, tomorrow. It's, yeah, that's a, that was a Turkish…

42:01Guest 2Netflix, I think.

42:01Guest 1Yeah, Netflix Turkey and Netflix Germany. So it's, largely, German language with some Turkish language, but they shot the whole thing in Istanbul.

42:12Guest 2She said Maybe.

42:13Guest 1She said Maybe… ... It's called. Yeah.

42:16Jawad MirNice. And, anything else that you wanna add when it comes to films or casting? You know, anybody who wants to get into casting. I mean, I always feel that casting is almost like a s… kinda like a pre-director job. Obviously, you know, you're trying to find the roles and the actors that fit. There's sometimes it doesn't, you don't get the actors through casting process because the director wants somebody, and they go to them. But yeah, any s… any words of wisdom?

42:47Guest 1Well, yeah. I mean, one thing I always, say, is just, you know, the work that I do for CSA, for Casting Society and the Global Chapter, I'm the president of the Global Chapter, and what we're trying to do is, keep, like, ecosystems, healthy in, especially in places where, sort of there's this, like, emerging market feel…... To it or where the, all the infrastructure that we take for granted in North America and the UK. So for example, there are many places unfortunately where casting directors are… where casting is, given to agents to carry out, to talent agents. So the person that's, like, doing the casting and should be, have fiduciary and creative responsibility to the producer to have the widest net possible is actually someone who gains financially by hiring their own clients and then getting a percentage of every, of every, you know, every fee.

43:56Guest 1So that is way more common than anybody would hope. It, there are many countries where the casting directors that I talk to in that country can barely survive because it's cheaper for the production to hire an agent to cast, because they're just, they have to pay the commission anyway and then they're paying, you know, just the commission. And then what happens that's really corrupt and terrible is that casting direct… casting, it's not a casting director, the casting agent, that's what they're called, casting agents. And they then really control the environment, and so the whole ecosystem. So for example, they'll charge actors to be in their database, so therefore, like, under their, you know, the, to be in the casting pool, they will charge them for photos. They'll charge them a yearly fee. They'll charge them for, you know, 100 euros per clip on their show reel. And so it's very like, it becomes this sort of semi, like, mafia kind of thi…

44:56Jawad MirYeah

44:56Guest 1... Situation, and it's really bad. So we're doing, reach out, o… outreach. I was just in Kosovo last weekend talking about this. I'm going to Egypt. I'm going to Japan. And we're doing, like, a whole, thing in, all over Europe because in some parts of Europe it's still very, common. And there are even, I think more and more and more, ways that people figure out to take advantage of sort of the hope of actors and get them to pay for, you know, they charge $10 a submission, and you don't even know what are you paying for. They're paying, you know, there's, like, subscription program. There's, like, you know, they're, they're doing acting training, but kind of under the guise of casting. And so it's, it's really just I see it getting worse and worse and worse, and, you know, my goal is always as, you know, when I go out and talk about this is to try to encourage people of, like, a, that a clean casting ecosystem benefits everybody.

46:00Guest 1I know it might be slightly more expensive, but, you know, if you have a casting director who has no conflict of interest, it's, your film is just gonna be so much better, you know, or your series or your television show.

46:12Jawad MirYeah.

46:12Guest 1And so that's a major, yeah, it's a, it's a huge part of the mission, kind of our global chapter of CSA, and it's, something that I spend a lot of time and energy trying to, you know, to keep

46:25Jawad MirAnd you protect the actors, giving every actor a chance to…

46:27Guest 1Protect the actors, yeah. Free access. I mean, you know, of course there's, whatever, you might have to pay some, you know, for, just like some database. But it's like it can't be a pl… a thing where there's this, like, pay for access, you know, systems that are going on, and they are rampant around the world.

46:44Jawad MirYeah. No, I agree. Agents are so, I don't even wanna use the right word, but they're difficult to deal with is what I will say. I, we sent out emails to, based for the project that we talked about. We sent out emails to Javier Bardem's publicist and Mark Ruffalo, Susan Sarandon, because they're very vocal about the topic. And each and every time, the publicist like, "We're gonna direct you to the agent." And then I know…

47:10Guest 1Yeah

47:10Jawad Mir... Once it goes to the agent, it's not going anywhere. Because they all care about the buck. Unless, you know, they see a buck or a value in it, they're not gonna give a damn about it. But so I completely agree with you, like, the agents, majority of the agents, even Hollywood stars say it in their jokes at Golden Globes or Oscars, they make fun of them because it's all the, it's all a sham now. Art is dying in business, and business and money, and money.

47:33Guest 1Yeah. I mean, I would say that, it's probably, like, in the traditional Hollywood sense, that is true, but I mean for…

47:40Jawad MirThat's what I'm referring to. I don't know anybody

47:42Guest 1... Yeah, exactly.

47:43Jawad MirYeah.

47:43Guest 1Because, yeah, because I mean, like, UK agents are so great. They read, you know, they're really looking out for their clients. They're, they're about developing their careers, and they, you know, advise them often to do, like, smaller, more artistic projects and then a bigger w… you know, to kind of, balance everything out, and they're really transparent and really... And same thing with E… with European, mostly in Europe. So, and you know, I mean, I also understand, you know, the, their problem, which is those actors that are kind of bankable and have a lot of, you know, power in the industry, they're also just, like, inundated with so many offers and so many people. So they have to find a way to kind of filter through everything, and I think, you know, it's been, like, pay or play offers has been kind of the way that they can, you know, filter out what might not happen or what has a large chance of not happening, and I understand that they need to do that. I think it's changing a bit now because there's more of a, you know, there's, the, people are more, I think, willing now, or I find the agents more willing to discuss projects when they're still in development than they used to be maybe four or five years ago.

48:52Guest 1But yeah, it's, I understand it and I, if I had to do that job, I would probably, unfortunately be similar.

49:02Jawad MirNo, I…

49:03Guest 2There's no conflict of interest. I mean, an actor should be represented by…

49:07Jawad MirYeah.

49:07Guest 1Yeah.

49:08Jawad MirI agree with…

49:09Guest 2That's fine by me

49:09Jawad Mir... I agree with you guys, but I think what I'm trying to say is that… Look, at the, I get it. Like, you know, everybody has their own interest in what they wanna pursue. I totally get that. I would do the same, you guys would do the same. But I think what's d… what differs in Europe versus North America, especially in Hollywood, is that a simple reply whether not interested or interested…

49:30Guest 1Yeah. Yeah

49:30Jawad Mir... You know, would do. Just, like, two words. That's all you need to do.

49:34Guest 1Ah, yeah. I know. Yeah.

49:34Jawad MirSo nobody's, nobody's, like, patronizing you or pushing you and stuff.

49:38Guest 1Yeah.

49:38Jawad MirAnd you, and you're right. Whenever I've reached out to people in Europe, or we have reached out to Europe for a podcast, the agents are so quick to respond and so polite and it's like as if they know you in the email.

49:49Guest 1Yeah.

49:49Jawad MirLike, that's how their tone is.

49:51Guest 1Yeah.

49:51Jawad MirAnd, you know, in US and h… in North America, it's like to the point. Most of it, not all of it. And…

49:57Guest 1Yeah

49:57Jawad Mir... It's just a different culture, like you said.

50:00Guest 1Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

50:02Jawad MirAwesome. Anything you wanna add, Lorenzo?

50:05Guest 2No. No, I mean, she has…

50:08Guest 1He has good relationships with agents. You have good relationships with agents.

50:11Guest 2Oh, no, yeah.

50:12Guest 1He's got his own... It's like, you know, he's got his, like, agents that he's got sort of a shorthand with, you know, and I have agents that I have a shorthand with.

50:21Guest 2Well, because we notice also, I think everyone now that is working in the arts, you know, if you are casting director, if you're an actor, you want, when you deal with your client, let's say for both is actually the producer. You want someone in between 'cause you're involved. You wanna, let's say casting director, you wanna work with a director and, you know, the project's interesting, the person's interesting so, you know, you're also artistically involved, and you or the actor or, you know, or the DP shouldn't... It's hard if you also have to deal, like, on the, about the contract, about the financial part with the same person, so that's why the producer or the director should be represent… have someone between dealing with these things and a casting director or an agent or an actor should, only have to talk to, you know, the director or the producer about the role…

51:15Guest 1Yeah

51:15Guest 2... About how to play a role and the…

51:18Guest 1And it's very different from market to market. That's why I have three, actually. I have an American, UK, and German. So…

51:23Guest 2An agent communicates. And lets you know, gives a response.

51:27Guest 1Because it's... Yeah, exactly.

51:29Guest 2Yeah.

51:29Guest 1It's very different in every…

51:30Guest 2It's a good filter to the best…

51:31Guest 1... Every place. So…

51:32Guest 2... In a positive sen… way, interest of the actor, of anyone involved. So, but in our case, what we were saying before is the pro… problem is when there's a conflict of interest. A pure agent, if he's working well, is good, but they should also look at the, at the quality of the project that's being offered and not just look at the buck and not,... And filter out anything that he…

51:58Jawad MirYeah.

51:58Guest 2Very effective one. I can add one thing that's interesting. Sometimes w… when we know and we know the actor, we n… a few times we kind of counter-directed the actor was we knew that the actor was, could have been interested, like, in the story to get at least to read the screenplay. And in that specific case, of course we will see who the, maybe the, we know that specific agent was, you know, filtering too hard and making an actor in this case miss out on something that we knew that the actor was interested because that case we could have…

52:28Jawad MirYeah

52:29Guest 2... Right? It's very complex, but…

52:30Jawad MirAnd then that's, that's what I meant, right? Like, it's again…

52:33Guest 2Yeah

52:33Jawad Mir... The, but it's, it's, I'm not assuming anything. It's like why would somebody do that? Is it because of financial motives or some other motives?

52:38Guest 2No.

52:38Jawad MirWho knows? But, I've seen a lot of interviews of actors who would say that, you know, "I was supposed to get this role."

52:44Guest 2Ah. They complain, yeah.

52:44Jawad MirYeah. "Then the agent didn't do it and I fired the agent." I don't know if you have seen the show…

52:47Guest 1Yeah

52:47Jawad Mir... Apple TV show, The Studio, which was like a…

52:50Guest 1Yeah. Sure, yeah.

52:50Jawad MirYeah. I mean, that's a true depiction…

52:53Guest 1Yeah

52:53Jawad Mir... Of Hollywood, right? And they know there is a problem, but it's just one of those things where you don't know how to get around it. And…

53:00Guest 1Yeah

53:01Jawad Mir... I'm not saying everybody's like that, but I'm just saying…

53:03Guest 1Yeah

53:03Jawad Mir... It's, it's a major problem.

53:04Guest 1Yeah. Sure. Absolutely.

53:05Jawad MirYeah.

53:05Guest 1I know a director that had a quite known actress come up to him at the premiere and say, "Oh, my. That was such a great role. I would've loved to play that role." And he said, "Well, we offered it to you first. So I'm sorry you never got it." Yeah.

53:21Jawad MirAnd she prob… the agent probably never told her. Yeah. Whatever the reason was, we don't know, right? So yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, guys, for taking the time to chat. It was lovely conversing with you and learning a little bit about casting process and your work in Somnia. A great film, so thank you so much for your time.

53:40Guest 1Thank you. Fantastic.

53:42Guest 2Thank you.

53:43Jawad MirI'm looking forward to your next film.

53:45Guest 2Thanks.

53:45Guest 1Thanks. Us too.