'Schindler's List', Casting Director, Magdalena Szwarcbart

0:00Magdalena SzwarcbartI would like to say a few words about girl in red coat. I… someone came to me with, m… with the radio, you know, with this portable radio, and I heard first AD, Sergio, saying, "Magda, Steven wants you to stay with girl on the set." Now I can confess, right? I was so angry. I said, "What? There is like, you know, 150 people on the set." I mean, I said to myself, "Four or five ADs who could, who can only do this work, and I have my duties, and no one will do this for me." And I was so angry. But the girl was standing, watching me. I don't know how to describe this. She had this kind of, you know, childish trust, child… childish con… confidence that, everything will be fine, that we're gonna have good time together.

1:08Jawad MirGood afternoon, everyone. Welcome to yet another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast, The Making of Stories. I'm your host, Jawad Mir. It's been a while since I've been, since I've done an episode. It's been a way. I'll tell you a lot about it, in the next coming weeks and months. But to get to the episode, today is Remembrance Day, and coincidentally, I ended up speaking with a casting director, Magda. I'm not gonna pronounce her last name because I'm, I'm not gonna get it right. So Magda, she was a casting director on Steven Spielberg's Schindler's List. I've been trying to get to speak to someone on Schindler's List for a while, and finally, I had a pleasure of speaking to her. She was once one of the few casting directors and had some great stories to tell from the set in Poland. A lovely lady, lovely conversation. I learned a lot about, some new things about Schindler's List that, to my knowledge, weren't made public, at least, at least for me. It could be for you too, especially, stories about the girl in the red coat. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Magda for Schindler's List as a casting director.

2:09Jawad MirI'm so glad to have you on Kingdom of Dreams podcast to talk about your career, your films, including Schindler's List. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat.

2:19Magdalena SzwarcbartThank you for the invitation.

2:21Jawad MirAmazing. I would love to know, Magda, how did your career start in casting? You know, before Schindler's List, what was that element that brought you into the film world, especially into casting?

2:37Magdalena SzwarcbartWell, frankly speaking, Schindler's List was the first movie with casting credits for me.

2:44Jawad MirReally?

2:44Magdalena SzwarcbartI know. Yeah, I know. It sounds exciting, but, I had some experience. I work, as a AD, and at that time in Poland, they were AD's duties, to do also as a part of their duties to work on casting, especially, you know, the smaller parts and the background. So, casting as a individual, separate work or, I mean, job, it came with international production to us. So, yeah. I can say that, I couldn't im… imagine better start, actually.

3:33Jawad MirYeah. I mean, it won, I think nine Academy Awards, and the film, obviously, it's such a great film still to this day, and to be able to work on your first film that is directed by none other than Steven Spielberg, I mean…

3:46Magdalena SzwarcbartIt wasn't my first film, actually. Yeah. We, I've…

3:49Jawad MirOkay

3:49Magdalena Szwarcbart... I worked, about, I don't know, more or less 10 years, maybe eight, before, yeah, but credits, casting credits, definitely, yes.

4:00Jawad MirOh, I see. I see. But still, that's a pretty g… big deal. That's a pretty big deal. But how did you, how did you get into the film world? Like, what was it a movie that you saw, by accident? If you can tell me that story…

4:13Jawad Mir... I'm always fascinated to know the journey.

4:15Magdalena SzwarcbartWell, it wasn't my merit, not my fault. I was a member of production team at that time, probably the best in Poland. So, like after the film school, when I came to practice, I was production assistant for Michal Szerbic. He was, he was a great production manager. Today, we would say line producer at least. And, when the idea with Schindler's List came to Poland, the Polish co-producer, Lech Rywin, he invited Michal to work on it, and Michal, took his people with him. And, so it wasn't that I was interviewed for this, work. Like, for example, I don't know, maybe, for example, 10 years ago, Pawel Pawlikowski was working on his Cold War, and I went for interview, and I was chosen.

5:24Magdalena SzwarcbartI was, very happy to be chosen for this movie, but Steven Spielberg, didn't have the chance. Just he got me in the package.

5:40Jawad MirThat's great. That's fantastic. Tell, you know, it's, the book was published, I think, in 1982, and then Steven Spielberg bought the rights. I think it was the Sid Sheinberg at Universal who told him about the book, and he bought the rights back then, 11 years before the film came out. Do you remember when you... Well, I guess it's a two-part question. When you learned about the film, Schindler's List, what the story is, and also how much of your awareness on the Holocaust was at that point before the film came out or before you even read the script?

6:16Magdalena SzwarcbartI was growing up in Poland, and, the Second World War and the everything…

6:25Jawad MirYeah

6:25Magdalena Szwarcbart... It was just a part of my childhood and my, growing up. So... And I worked before on movies, about this, histories, and, they were like, And the Violin Stopped Playing, where we were shooting inside museum, concentration camp, in Auschwitz or another movie directed by Krzysztof Zanussi, and plenty of feature films done in Poland, about the Second World War. So it wasn't nothing new, but the story about Oskar Schindler, it was something new to me. I didn't know this book before, so I m… I got a screenplay, and, it was really moving. But more than moving, was a bit terrifying, the scale of this production.

7:32Magdalena SzwarcbartIt was, something, which I... It didn't happen to me before and after Schindler's List. But somehow this is our environment, so of course I knew. Well, I was 15 when I was…

7:52Jawad MirYeah

7:52Magdalena Szwarcbart... First time, in museum in German, concentration camp in Auschwitz. And, we were three of us teenagers, the best of history, in the high school, invited by survivors, by p… by people who spent a few years, in this camp. I mean, not all of them, but three or four. So walking the, feeling this, you know, ashes under the skin, it was, yeah, it was a really unusual experience, but it had happened to me very early.

8:41Jawad MirYeah, no, the reason I asked was I wasn't sure if you grew up in Poland, but because I was in Poland, this spring. I went there for the first time for location scouting of a film that I'm working on, and you cannot not dis… it's impossible for you not to know about a Holocaust, in, if you're in Poland because, I mean, there are so many things, right? Like, there's the Warsaw Uprising monuments, there's the ghettos, the Auschwitz camps, all that stuff. But I guess Schindler's List was one of those rare films, because to my knowledge, if I am not mistaken, at least in Hollywood, there weren't any Holocaust movies per se before Schindler's List. There was a lot of World War II films that came out, and they touched upon, you know, what Holocaust was or freeing the Jews from the Germans' shackles, but not at that scale. I don't think there was a film in Hollywood that was ever done. But in Poland, I'm sure there was. Am I, am I correct to assume that?

9:40Magdalena SzwarcbartWell, they, there were a lot of, I would even say masterpieces, about the m… Second World War, but not the precisely about the Holocaust, yeah? It was just a part of, Second World War, experience, but, I don't remember actually before Schindler's List,.. I mean, this is exceptional movie, in, and it's shown this, in the scale which I don't remember that any movie did.

10:24Jawad MirYeah. Were you, physically on the set watching any of the, filming, ever at all during the production of the film?

10:34Magdalena SzwarcbartI was on the set every day.

10:35Jawad MirNormally casting director...

10:37Magdalena SzwarcbartBut…

10:37Jawad MirOh, you were on the set? Okay, 'cause casting directors normally are not on the set.

10:41Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah, but, I wasn't only casting director. I was invited because lots of casting was done, was done, during the prep. But still, producers pres… were expecting lots of changes and frankly they were right. A lot of, new, script pages coming and new characters to be casted. So I stayed, over the whole shooting period in Kraków and, yeah, almost. Not like every day, but almost every day I was, I was there. But not staying and watching, right? Not spending hours. I was just…

11:30Jawad MirYeah

11:31Magdalena Szwarcbart... Coming with some concrete, issues and then going back to work.

11:39Jawad MirWow, that's, that's incredible. And when you were, y… y… you know, being on the set most of the time, just tell me your day-to-day duties. What, were you casting, like, the extras, the small part roles, or how... Just run through that process for me and any story that you may remember. I know it's been a long time. Any story that you may remember, the audience would really love to hear that.

12:05Magdalena SzwarcbartOh, gosh. Do you have 10 hours?

12:08Jawad MirI have 20 hours for that, Jill.

12:11Magdalena SzwarcbartOh, no.

12:11Jawad MirBecause I've been trying, I'll tell you, Magda, I've been trying to get somebody to talk to me about Schindler's List for the last three years, and I finally got you, so we have a lot of time.

12:23Magdalena SzwarcbartOkay. You see, how to start? Because, we worked on casting... I mean, we, because we just have to clarify. It wasn't only me, right?... We worked, there was Judy Taylor, in New York. There was, Luki in Holland there with Fritz in Vienna. There were, Israeli guys, so, at the first stage we were, proposing, presenting, every, for every c… movie character actors in, from every country, I think. At least I did it in Poland. So there were, tapes with reading prepared and sent to LA.

13:24Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd, I know from Luki that, she did exactly the same, like to create k… kind of database for director so he could, see what's, who is possible and choose what's the best for the movie, right? So it was maybe six, maybe eight months before, shooting start that, I wasn't even at the time in Warsaw because I had to finish other project out of Warsaw. But I remember, this in the evenings, hours and hours on phones to, coordinate this. And the Polish actors... But at the early beginning, even one of Polish actors, the great one really, was considered as, Oskar Schindler. So it was really widely, really wide searching.

14:31Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd, these materials were sent to LA and then we had feedbacks. And I can, I can tell you, one story which, like one example because, I'm, I'm huge fan of this guy and, I want this memory to live on. I was... You know, basically casting is, working on casting, you are looking for someone, the most believable for the, for the part, right? And, I was also thinking about kind of authenticity, and we didn't have many Jews left in Poland. So I c… I called, I did ask, and he wasn't, very happy at the beginning, but, he did come. I did ask, Leopold Kozlowski.

15:35Magdalena SzwarcbartHe was, great composer and conductor and musician, and he had nothing common with acting before. And he came to, read for, one of investors, Jewish investor's part. There's this scene, especially at the be… In the car... And there's this scene… Yeah... At the beginning of the story that, Oskar Schindler's, is dealing with, Jewish investors. The, and I don't remember if exactly this di… this part of dialogue is left in the, in the movie, but, there was something, like, Oskar Schindler said, "Okay, but there are different circumstances, and now you cannot expect that much money, than you want. And you already did try to sell me something, too expensive."

16:38Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd Leopold, you know, like reading looks. It's just, in the front of camera, and i… i… it was his answer. And Leopold, did something like this, "Okay, but it had happened only once," showing three fingers, right? And it, I mean, it was…, ... His idea. But, we got the feedback immediately that he must be aboard. Like, this kind of, this flavor, this sense of J… Jewish, you know, Jewish sense of humor, it, Spielberg loved it immediately. And he was over 70 when we were shooting. And, every time when I was on the set, and it wasn't easy. It was, icy winter, heavy rain, hot spring always.

17:44Magdalena SzwarcbartLeopold was in this main, group, the future Schindler's family, and he didn't complain at all. I only had to promise him to, that the next movie will be very warm beach and just two of us. But, he was great, and he was... I mean, actors, and professionals, extras, they were so much, so much, engaged. I don't know if we could do this now nowadays. I don't know. But it was just the basic casting, right? But then, I think that, well, I'm, well, I'm sure the director was looking, also for this authenticity. That's why, Luque in Vienna was casting mostly German characters.

18:47Magdalena SzwarcbartI, concentrate on Poles, Polish Jews, and, before the shooting, started, we had more or less completed the main parts, but then, but then was the... I thought I was pretty naive, I must say, but, I thought that it's okay. We are, now we'll follow the shooting period and cast the smaller parts accord… according to, shooting schedule. But, in parallel to, shooting process, there were visits, constant visits on the set. I don't know who organized this, but, they kept showing up, survivors, witnesses, people saying their own stories.

19:58Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd, it was, like, parallel to the shooting, and then after a few days, I, kept finding in my, box in production office new script pages, and, they were pieces of their biography, biographies already written down to shoot them, for our movie, and it was always, like, from Wednesday till Friday, so it was really crazy timing, to do this. And, you know, for me, because it wasn't such obvious that every Polish actor, especially at the time, could speak English. So, I had a very limited time to think who could be, who somehow would be good for the part, who is available for day after tomorrow morning to shoot, who is available to come tonight to, production office to the hotel so I can record his line, and during the lunch break to present to the director.

21:21Magdalena SzwarcbartBut, even the... I had the feeling sometimes that I'm in ER room. The most important is that, all this, made Steven Spielberg create this Shoah Foundation, and, to all this experiences and stories to be memorized, right? And this is, his great achievement. This is his great heritage. I didn't find half of this work in the movie finally, eventually, on the premiere. I couldn't, right? Because it would take six hours or nine hours of the movie. But, this foundation did great work.

22:30Jawad MirYeah. I mean, you know, what's great about Schindler's List is aside from Liam Neeson, Ray… Ralph Fiennes, Ben Kingsley, like, those were the three main actors, in the film. I mean, granted, they weren't that big at the time, except Ben Kingsley. But there were all these little stories, you know, the rabbi, the girl in the red coat, the boy who gets shot, who was cleaning, Ralph Fiennes, the bathroom, and he gets shot. I mean, there are so many other characters that I'm forgetting. I don't know their names. But this... If there was some other director, I think all those little stories would not have connected to the grand story, but just somehow, I mean, most of these characters never met, you know, the main ca… the main character, but somehow it's all connected at a very deeper level. Like, I saw, I've seen Schindler's List several times, and I saw it last time last year, and it's still, you know, an incredible film, and what gets to me the most time, I remember when I first saw it, and to, even to this day, it's the way the killings were done.

23:41Jawad MirLike, how the, you know, the bullet would hit the head, and the head would go forward, and it would go back, and it would fall on the ground. Like, I have never seen anybody even remotely try that, and that, it's, it makes it like a piece of doll moving back and forth, right? It just, it's just insane how that was executed.

24:00Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah. That was,.. I mean, I want to, I am, I am, I, and I want to be very proud of this movie, but when you remind me this, everything, it comes…

24:21Jawad MirIt's hard. Yeah

24:22Magdalena Szwarcbart... It comes to me really,.. It was such a pressure, that sometimes, I think that… In the middle of shooting, there were guys who were dreaming, who were dreaming to be fired and just to have a chance to sleep one week or two, longer, because, it was difficult. It's... You know, this is a challenge when you,.. Of course, huge American production and Steven Spielberg, top of the tops, and, you don't want to, disappoint anyone, who relies on you. And, m… he was, he was so devoted to this story that, we wanted support him and follow him.

25:23Magdalena SzwarcbartBut I've never worked that hard, ever in my life. And I mean, I mean, I used to work hard. I w… my parents, my grandma, they teach me that the, that the respect to work is almost as much important like respect to the people. And the work, obviously it has its inner value, but, the most of all this is the duty. But, in this particular movie, like doing your best was far not enough. Like I remember that at some point I decided, I mean, decided I wanted to make a deal with universe that, okay, I will do much more than I can, but instead I need five miracles per day.

26:28Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd it, I believe it worked this way. Yeah. So, for example, it's 8:00 PM at the evening and you get a, call sheet and you see 10 Jews hanging on, but they were never in background, in breakdown. And how come I can have 10 Jews hanging on? They can be regular extras. There should be stunts, and they don't have them. God, and it's tomorrow at s… 6:00 AM they should be on the set, right? Fortunately there were two stunts coordinate all my blood brothers. Yeah, Jacek and Krzysztof and they were coming and saying, "Don't worry, we will... We... Don't be afraid. We will go to look for, some students.

27:29Magdalena SzwarcbartWe will prepare them. They would be fine." but saying, Otim, about what's the most difficult, in this kind of movie, it's, it's not the work that you have to perform like special forces guys, right? Like,... Just complete the task and survive. It's, the most challenging are emotions, that you cannot separate, your emotions from your work. And, we… you come to the set, you're in the middle of the hell, you... Like a sponge, you take everything on you, right? And, even the... You know that, they will stop the take and go for coffee. These moments, you know, yelling, screaming, crying, it stays with you.

28:35Magdalena SzwarcbartYou can just finish work and at 8:00 PM and say, "Okay, I go dance," right? So, I promised myself, I don't know how it will be in the future, but I've promised myself to stop. I work on so many war movies, and even the last one, which was Jonathan Glazer, his The Zone of Interest, and we were in Oświęcim, in Auschwitz, and the location was, in this zone zero, like very... Just behind the wall was the museum. And you talk, with crew about something, but, you see, you watch, you feel, these chimneys and, I couldn't stand in this.

29:38Magdalena SzwarcbartIt's,.. You know, it's somehow hard to understand because, I know this series that Steven Spielberg, made about why we hate and everything, and I know, I understand that scientist may be right, but, like watching around ourself, the Ukraine with... It's just behind the wall. Or Israel, October 7th, or Gaza or Sudan, it's, you think that the... It's something wrong with our DNA that, You c…, you cannot actually understand why people choosing to kill each other.

30:48Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd ages of our human history and the religions and the most cruel religions wars in the name of God. That was very spectacular killing. So, when you work on movie like this, it's, this is, I would say, the most difficult part of work.

31:20Jawad MirYeah. I agree with you, and I think, you know, you talked about if you look at history, I mean, there's... Pff. You know, human beings are not human beings. We're originally like animals. We have animal instincts, and we end up... You know, Steven Spielberg said this thing, when Schindler's List came on, premiered on NBC in 1994, I think it was. Yeah. It was the first time ever a m… a sh… a movie was gonna be shown on TV with no commercials, and Steven Spielberg came and did an introduction on NBC. I remember that. I remember watching that. I don't remember anything but one thing that he said. He said, "We are not born with hate. We acquire hate." And that is basically the genesis of my next film that I'm working on, like how hate comes inside you due to circumstances, not justifying the actions, but also then how people exploit that, you know, in the name of religion, in the name of faith, in the name of belief.

32:23Jawad MirAnd suddenly it going on and continue on until we much end up eliminating our own selves. Like, it's just, it... There's no, there's no th… thing left such as empathy or such as listening to others or trying to understand others' point of view, as crazy as that may be, and I think I get that. Like, you know, one, and one of the atrocities that I'll add to that is I directed a film, I don't know if you know about the Uyghur Muslims in northwestern part of China. It's a similar thing. They have con… they've had concentration camps in the last 10 years. I made a whole film about it, about a protagonist trying to find her sister, In Search of My Sister. And there's so many more examples, but media only shows us, you know, whatever they wanna show us. But yeah, I mean, in a nutshell, it's insane that how as a species we never learn. We just never learn.

33:18Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah, we want to fly to the moon, but we don't know how to respect life on Earth, and this is really stupid. You know? It's, it's, it's hard to,.. It's, it's, it's really hard to understand what for. But I can... And you know, I work in Poland. This is really my privilege, I must say, that I am invited to every feature, from over than 20 years directed by Wojtek Smarzowski. He's a great director, and he doesn't want to lose the time for unmeaningful stories, so it's always something, for our history or about social life.

34:21Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd, his last movie is, how it's English title? It's, it's probably Home Sweet Home. It's about domestic violence. And, he put into dialogue, the sentence, the words of a Polish poet, Edward Stachura, "I can't change the world, but I can blow the horn."

34:59Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd I think that's why we f… filmmakers are, we have a field to work on it, right? And, I mean, coming back to Schindler's List, it's a, it's a, it's a great example. And, I remember on this opening, I was leaving a theater, near a old journalist, really moral, a real moral authority in Poland. And h… I hear him saying, "We have, over 7,000, over seven… 7,000 trees in Yad Vashem gardens, but now thanks to, pop culture, the world will know that the German saved Jews."

36:11Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd he wasn't upset. He was, he was just sad. He was in blue. And, I think, with all my respect, I think he was so wrong. It really, it really doesn't matter who and how, will communicate with the world that will send a message that in every circumstances you ke… you can be a good man. And, it's, it's, it's, it's really great to be a part of this. But okay, coming back to stories, I would like to say a few words about girl in red coat because, Please... Because, I think I own this to this girl. And okay, as you know, this is a very remarkable piece of the movie, Oskar, Schindler on the hill, on the horse, watching girl, walking down the street

37:31Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd finally she hides herself, under the bed. And, originally in the, in the first script, she survived. The idea that, the close to the end of story, we see her, you know, pieces of her coat, body on…... This pile of bodies. It came later with script changes, constant script changes. It was, constant. So, we had a girl, Olivia, beautiful, and, she was, chosen when Steven Spielberg came already to Kraków, and he met her in person, and actually a few girls. But, she was about three years old, maybe three a bit.

38:35Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd, there was this scene under the bed already done, and we were, preparing shooting, this, scene when Oskar Schindler wa… is on the hill., And it was total deadline because, it was, like, half of, district, residents didn't, couldn't watch the TV for weeks. You know, now it's computer and blah, and everything is done, and at that time, the, all these antennas were taken off, so, it was a real deadline to do this. And like everything in this movie, it was, Thursday, we were, we were planning for Saturday. One of producers came to me and said that we need another girl.

39:36Magdalena SzwarcbartSo I said, "Okay." "We need her for Saturday, so you have, you know, two days." So, the reason was not that Olivia was bad girl, only too young to do this scene on the street. And it didn't work, on the set, so they were, you know, under huge pressure that it, we have to do this scene. So I did ask guys from casting, extras. They, helped me to find out some girls, and, I came with them, to the set as usual during lunch break. And, it was something new for me because, director wanted me to come with these three or four girls into the tent when hun… 100, or people were, you know, having lunch.

40:40Magdalena SzwarcbartThey were hungry, they were... There was a lot of noise. Like, y… you know. And, later I understood that he wanted to choose the bravest one. The, but, I didn't know that at the time. So we came, so, okay, this one, and, I knew that we just have to exchange the girl for the part. And it was Friday, so on Saturday morning I came to the set and I, we found out that no, that she would be a doubler. Oh. And her dad didn't want her to be a doubler. So it was pretty difficult morning. And I was just, you know, ready to die five times, at least until 8:00. And, finally everything was, you know, resolved and all the problems, so I took the girl to the set just to leave her with ADs and go to the office with, you know, long line things which should be prepared for tomorrow or for yesterday.

42:00Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd I, someone came to me with the radio, you know, with this portable radio, and I heard first AD, Sergio, saying, "Magda, Steven wants you to stay with girl on the set." And I was so angry. Now I can confess, right? I was so angry. I said, "What? There is like, you know, 150 people on the set." I mean, I said to myself, "And four or five ADs who could, who can only do this work, and I have my duties, and no one will do this for me." And I was so angry, but the girl was standing watching me, and she, I don't know how to describe this. She had this kind of, you know, childish trust, child… childish con… confidence that, everything will be fine, that we're gonna have good time together.

43:13Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd I said, "Okay." I realized that I have to stay on the set and protect her from this filmmaker's insanity, that, like, no matter, movie scene, Spielberg, no, not a bit, just her. And we were... We spent, I don't know, six, seven hours tog… hours together. We were walking, meeting everyone on... This is, this is one minute, maybe one and a half, yeah, when she's walking.

43:57Magdalena SzwarcbartBut she said hi to everyone on the street, civilians, soldiers, these guys with guns, props guys, everyone. We were walking, like, I don't know, 50, 60 times, so I had, I held her hand and I was just very nearby. Then when we had camera rehearsals and shooting, I was just two meters from her, step by step. Just make sure that she will be protected, that she will be looked after. And, when I saw, the movie on the premiere and I saw this piece and, you know, with this music, and I said, "Okay, Magda, shame to you. Why you were, why you were so angry?"

45:00Magdalena SzwarcbartI mean, you should be grateful, to be a tiny, even invisible, but just a tiny part of this, of this scene. And, I thought that, I don't know, Spielberg's, experience or his, great intuition or his, third eye, I don't know, somehow he knew that I will do exactly what he wanted for this girl to be on this, on the screen. So self-convenience, right? So that she didn't look at anything. She just knew what she wanted to do, and she was, you know, working to hide her and I was really impressed by how she did it. And in the movie, it's mixed this girl with Olivia.

46:05Jawad MirYeah.

46:05Magdalena SzwarcbartThey are... You cannot recognize her, but I keep her in my heart, and I'm so grateful, that she wanted to be with me on that day. So this is my private story about the girl in the red coat, and, she was really the little teacher.

46:28Jawad MirWell, thank you for sharing that because that scene was probably, like, a minute and a half, like you said, or maybe even, you know, around that time.

46:35Magdalena SzwarcbartMaybe two minutes and a half. Yeah, but…

46:38Jawad MirYeah. And that, not only that her hand with the red coat made it to the poster with, you know, Schindler…

46:45Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah

46:45Jawad Mir... Kind of like holding her.

46:46Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah.

46:46Jawad MirBut that became the catalyst in Oskar Schindler's character of shifting from this side…

46:53Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah

46:53Jawad Mir... To that side. And even though it lasts two minutes, if people talk, you know how people talk about Jurassic Park, they think of T-Rex. People talk about E.T., they think about E.T. Or the fl… you know, the flying bike on the moon. When people talk about Schindler's List, to me at least, is that the first image that comes to my mind is that little girl in the red.

47:13Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah.

47:13Jawad MirThat's it.

47:14Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd I…

47:14Jawad MirAnd that's how powerful it was.

47:16Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah. That's why I wanted to share this, experience with you because, I told you honestly from the scratch how angry I was, and then how grateful I was. Yeah.

47:37Jawad MirYeah. No, thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. Did you... I'm assuming you met Spielberg, like, sort of one-on-one. Was there ever anything like that?

47:46Magdalena SzwarcbartDuring the shooting that I met him?

47:47Jawad MirYeah.

47:49Magdalena SzwarcbartWell, I had my minutes. I had my minutes very often because, I wouldn't call it meeting, right? But, we, I saw him first time when h… he was, you know, choosing the girl in red. Then every time, I, when I had to present my work, right, during the shooting, so we had the VCR player in, actors' bus.

48:29Magdalena SzwarcbartSo, I always was told that you have five minutes. But then it was four, but then three, that finally just make sure you can do this in the 15 seconds. It was everything fast. But he was always so focused on what he can see, and, Actually, it was, you know, always with group of people around him, but, the decision were made like this, it was very impressive how fast he knew, what he needs for the story and who is the best. But fortunately, he, it didn't situation that he said no one is good, because as I told you, they should come to the set next day. So I didn't have the m… m… any back steps.

49:35Magdalena SzwarcbartBut, I don't know, I don't know how…

49:42Jawad MirYes

49:42Magdalena Szwarcbart... But yes, I can say this, I think, it looked like, he had this, inner high emotional tension which, like couldn't, didn't let him walk. Like, he was always running, like always keen on not to miss anything, and, you just wanted not to disappoint him.

50:19Jawad MirYeah. Well, the thing is that I've seen a lot of his interviews about Schindler's List. I mean, A, I remember he say, he said to Kathleen Kennedy, because he was filming, finishing Jurassic Park, and he wanted to shoot that year because the winter, because the snow in Warsaw and, Krakow, and everywhere else. And then also the emotional element of him, I think, and I'm assuming this based on the interviews that I've heard of him and of other people, so please don't quote me on this. I think up until that point he was not really proud to be who he was as a Jewish individual, and I think that film brought that out in him, and that all that stuff that he has sort of been holding back in, and his hi… his wife was a great, a guiding light towards that. And I think that all came out in the way it came out, and plus working on Jurassic Park, like doing the dubbing with George Lucas, two of, two of the most greatest and most different films came out in the same year.

51:24Jawad MirNobody's ever done that before, you know? It's, it's insane how he did that. And…

51:29Magdalena SzwarcbartI don't know if I can, if I can say anything about, you know, his feelings about the truths and everything. I think that this is very private.

51:42Jawad MirYeah

51:42Magdalena Szwarcbart... But, I admired his en… en… engagement in, into the story. And, that,.. He was, I mean, he was a big name already in Hollywood and, but it didn't look like he, it care, it, he cares. Just keen on doing absolutely…

52:17Jawad MirThe best

52:17Magdalena Szwarcbart... Absolutely the best, and if I was a sponge, can you imagine what kind of sponge he was? You know?

52:27Jawad MirYeah.

52:27Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd we should, we should mention, Branko Lustig, talking about, meetings because, Branko was one of producers, who, you know, he had this tattoo from concentration camp on his arm, and, I think it was his opus magnum. And, he knew everything about this movie, each day, every hour, where is the problem, in which department, or where will be problem, how to avoid this, how to resolve, and he was killing me softly twice a day. Like calmly, I mean, we had constant, hotline, but…

53:24Jawad MirYeah

53:24Magdalena Szwarcbart... He was, on the other hand, he was, very supportive and, he always, gave me the, a hand if I need it. And, yeah, talking about Branko, I can say that he was great teacher. Great teacher.

53:48Jawad MirAnd I, and I also think one of the things about Spielberg is, like leading up to Schindler's List, I mean, he had done obviously Duel, Jaws, Close Encounters, the three Indiana Jones films, Empire of the Sun, Color Purple, which was nominated for so many Oscars. It never won a single one. And then he did, I think Always and Hook. But even after that, if you see his filmography, films like Amistad, Saving Private Ryan, Munich. Munich has a special place in my heart because, which I'm sure you have seen, with, Eric Bana, because when it came out, when it was coming out, I was very... 'Cause I'm a hu… like, I became who I became because of Schindler's List and Jurassic Park, literally.

54:33Magdalena SzwarcbartOh, yeah.

54:34Jawad MirThose two film, yeah, those two films…

54:36Magdalena SzwarcbartOh, yeah

54:36Jawad Mir... Defined my life, who I am today. And so when f… Munich was coming out, I was very concerned, being a Spielberg fan, that how is he gonna handle the whole situation? And he just hit a home run with that, him and Tony Kushner. I mean, I think it's one of the most greatest films on that topic ever made, and if you watch that scene of, Ali with, Eric Bana's character on the staircase today, you would feel like you're watching something from yesterday. Like, that's how fricking relevant it was, and that's the genius of him and his team.

55:12Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah. Yeah, this is what, yeah, genius. I mean, what to say more?

55:23Jawad MirYeah, exactly. I wanted to ask you, and I know the, I know the answer, but I'm always very keen on knowing people's point of view. Like, you know, when the film came out and you saw it, I think it blew everybody's expect… well, I shouldn't say the word expectation, but it blew everyone away, you know, from its authenticity to its, the feel of it, the weather that was shot in the film, the winter times, the black and white. Do you remember when the credits start rolling, or even during any of the moment in the film, the feelings that came up? Sometimes certain things are left. Like, I remember sh… Saving Private Ryan, when I saw the opening sequence, I still remember what I felt when I was sitting in the movie theater with the bullets going by and people dying and everything. Do you remember anything like that?

56:20Magdalena SzwarcbartNo. No, I don't. I was,.. I remember Girl in Red, yeah, and my, experience. I remember, I remember I was so surprised that, I mean, logically I knew that it wasn't possible, but I was so surprised, like only a little, I mean, one third of this footage was left. The rest was in cutting room, right? And so I, but, maybe because of music, which is unbelievably beautiful.

57:06Jawad MirYeah, it is.

57:07Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd then these violins and, you know, m… maybe because of this, I mean, I couldn't, the, but I couldn't watch without thinking, what is left, what's not, and where is this piece and this story, you know, like the,.. But, leaving, did I mention to you about this old, journalist and saying about, survivors, the Yad Vashem?

57:49Jawad MirNo.

57:50Magdalena SzwarcbartIt's, I was leaving the cinema when this guy said, about this Yad Vashem trees, and, I did, I told you that

58:07Jawad MirOh, on the phone you did, but let's…

58:09Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah. Yeah

58:09Jawad Mir... But let's do it on the podcast. Yes.

58:11Magdalena SzwarcbartYes. L… leaving, I was thinking, about, how or anyhow I could survive this, you know, how I would behave. I think that this is, that this is the main question when you're leaving this theater. You are teach to distinguish God, what's good from evil. But, what was really your behavior, your statement, your position when you were in such a circumstances?

59:03Jawad MirYeah. It's true. And I think for me, Ra… Ra… you know, there's a scene of Ralph Fiennes' character, sorry I'm not, I'm really horrible with character names, but when he's…

59:13Magdalena SzwarcbartAmon Göth

59:14Jawad Mir... It's, yes, when, Oskar Schindler lectures him about the definition of power, you know, power is having the ability to do whatever you can, but you choose not to do it. And then following that, there's that scene of the boy washing the bathtub in the washroom and, you know, he says, "I pardon you." And it's that, his inner conflict in him. He's trying to be good, you know…

59:38Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah

59:38Jawad Mir... He's trying to do something good, but he just can't.

59:41Magdalena SzwarcbartBut he's not able. Yeah.

59:43Jawad MirYeah, because evil take over.

59:44Magdalena SzwarcbartHe's not able.

59:44Jawad MirAnd I think that's what makes Schindler's List so great, that antagonists were shown, ha… had a little bit of human moments, you know, which I think is very important. Instead of, you know, even some of the greatest films that you can see, like The Godfather, whenever you show an antagonist with some sort of an human emotion, audience resonates with that, instead of just showing them completely ballistically crazy and, you know, and that's it, just one dimensional. The three-dimensional characters in that film were phenomenal.

1:00:15Magdalena SzwarcbartI don't know a lot of, about English language, but sometimes I think that the motion picture, it's from emotion picture that…

1:00:25Jawad MirThat's right. You're right.

1:00:26Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah.

1:00:26Jawad MirYou're right

1:00:28Magdalena Szwarcbart... That it's, if you don't have emotions, if y… if you don't, this, amazing feeling that you're sitting and the lights go out and the curtain opens and you are invited to cross the screen and be inside the story and yell and cry, then what's the cinema for, yeah?

1:00:53Jawad MirYeah. I'll tell you an interesting story. I mean, this has nothing to do with the film, but I figured this out a couple of years ago. I don't know if, it's probably already public knowledge. So 1982 is when Schindler's List was published, okay? That's when Spielberg got…

1:01:09Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah, as a book.

1:01:09Jawad MirYeah, the book, as a book.

1:01:11Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah.

1:01:11Jawad MirSpielberg bought the rights in 1982. 1982, E.T. Came out. 1982, Gandhi came out. I don't know if you've seen that film.

1:01:21Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah.

1:01:22Jawad MirWhich was directed by Richard Attenborough, and it starred Ben Kingsley. 11 years later, Jurassic Park came out, which starred Richard Attenborough. Schindler's List came out, which starred Ben Kingsley, and both films did so well. I mean, it's just amazing how those things sort of connect in terms of character actors and human beings, and I think it was meant to be that way. And yeah, I can... I mean, I can go on about Schindler's List on and on. I think it's one of the most amazing pieces of cinema, ever made, and probably will live to be like that for a long time, for sure.

1:02:02Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah.

1:02:05Jawad MirAnd kudos…

1:02:06Magdalena SzwarcbartLet's, let's say that. Let's, let's people watch it. I mean, let's promote even... You know, it doesn't need promotion, but let's, let's promote, as widely as we can just to avoid this, for the future, or…

1:02:27Jawad MirYeah

1:02:28Magdalena Szwarcbart... For the present.

1:02:30Jawad MirYeah. I agree. I agree. As Spielberg said, you know, we're not born with hate, we acquire hate, and I think that's something that we need to figure out how to fix and how to reverse, because we…

1:02:41Magdalena SzwarcbartEducation. Education. I mean, this is the only way. Just, I don't be… I mean, I do believe that, raising kids, that teaching them, this is our duty, educate.

1:03:01Jawad MirYeah. I mean, nowadays the whole thing with education is everybody has their own agendas too. Not, it wasn't like that 25 years ago, when I was growing up. But I mean, education is certainly part of it, for sure. But I think if you look at films like Lawrence of Arabia, Dances with Wolves, Last Samurai, until you... If you don't like a certain group of people for whatever reason, or if you don't like a friend, until you take yourself and put yourself in that world, which is education, you will not understand what that world is. You know, you will, then you will learn, like, okay, what is that world? So I think it's important to put yourself in a place with people you disagree with so you can understand their point of view, even if it's the craziest point of view. That's, that's what I believe.

1:03:51Magdalena SzwarcbartSo you have your favorite movies, I can hear. Yeah. I have my favorite too, I must, I must say.

1:03:59Jawad MirPlease. Please share.

1:04:00Magdalena SzwarcbartAnd, well, I mean, of course, there is, now it's 50 years from premier, One Flew…

1:04:13Jawad MirOver the Cuckoo's Nest?

1:04:14Magdalena SzwarcbartExactly.

1:04:15Jawad MirMilos Forman, Jack Nicholson, yes.

1:04:17Magdalena SzwarcbartYes. The Milos Forman. It's, such a life's lesson. But I don't know if you had a chance to watch, how to s… I don't know the English title, but it should be some… somehow, Orchestra Rehearsal by Federico Fellini.

1:04:43Jawad MirNo, I have not. I have not.

1:04:44Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah. Yeah. I know, because it's not very well known, his movie. But, this is, great metaphor and very touching, on the same time. So this is what even look for. And…

1:05:07Jawad MirWhat is it, what is it called? Orchestra...

1:05:09Magdalena SzwarcbartOrchestra Rehearsals. Like rehearsal of orchestra rehearsal.

1:05:14Jawad MirOh, okay. Okay.

1:05:15Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah. It was even originally m… made for television, I think. But it's just, I love this piece.

1:05:27Jawad MirI'll take a look.

1:05:28Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah. Please do. I mean, the list is long, but…

1:05:32Jawad MirYeah, there's some great films, you know, ever since a motion picture started.

1:05:38Magdalena SzwarcbartExactly. Exactly.

1:05:40Jawad MirYeah. Well, thank you so much. How do I pronounce your last name?

1:05:44Magdalena SzwarcbartSchwarzbart.

1:05:46Jawad MirSchwarzbart.

1:05:47Magdalena SzwarcbartSchwarz. Schwarz.

1:05:48Jawad MirSchwarz.

1:05:48Magdalena SzwarcbartSchwa…

1:05:49Jawad MirYeah

1:05:49Magdalena Szwarcbart... Schwarz.

1:05:51Jawad MirSch… Schwarzbart.

1:05:51Magdalena SzwarcbartSchwarzbart. But you can really say what you want. Be fine.

1:05:55Jawad MirNo. I try to get the name right.

1:05:57Magdalena SzwarcbartYeah.

1:05:57Jawad MirI'll try my best to get it named right. But yeah, no, thank you so much for taking the time…

1:06:02Magdalena SzwarcbartThe pleasure is mine

1:06:04Jawad Mir... And sharing something very personal and deep with the audience. I really wanna thank you for talking about Schindler's List, because I've been dying to talk about Schindler's List to somebody who was on the film, so thank you.

1:06:16Magdalena SzwarcbartThank you. Take care of you.