'No Honor', Author Awais Khan

0:00Awais KhanSo… sorry to cut you off here, but I absolutely wholeheartedly agree with you, and this is a Pakistani problem. This is not a South Asian problem. Indians are very supportive of each other.

0:09Jawad MirYeah.

0:10Awais KhanPakistanis, the first thought that comes to their mind is, "Let's pull this person down. Why is this person daring to, you know, rise up?" I won't take any names here, but I, actually went to a very big, director in Pakistan, very famous, and I went through a p… proper contact. It wasn't a blind, contact or anything like that. I'd never blindly contacted them. I went through a very proper contact to get in touch and discuss, whether they'd like to be, you know, whether they'd like to acquire rights or w… what their advice might be on this because a lot of people keep telling me, "When is the movie gonna come out for your, one of your books?" and all of that. So I, so I went through a proper introduction. I never heard back, and this is the kind of, this is a, the, a person who pretends to be a huge supporter. And the, it makes me realize that deep down nobody, very few people in Pakistan will ever support you. Most of them will either dismiss you or they will get jealous and they'll dismiss you again.

1:17Jawad MirWelcome back everyone to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast, the making of stories. I'm your host Jawad Mir. Today my guest is author Owais Khan, who is from my hometown back in Pakistan, and he's an author who has written some incredible books, including In the Company of Strangers and No Honour. Lovely guy, very humble, well-spoken, and we talked about his books, we talked about his life, we talked about his career, what's coming up. Amazing conversation. Do take a listen. So without… Do take a listen, so without further ado, here's my conversation with author Owais Khan. I was going through your biography. I haven't read any of your work, but I went through your, you know, books that you've done and where you have studied. So you were ba… you were in Canada at some point, correct?

1:59Awais KhanYes, I spent four years in Canada as a student. So I was in London, Ontario. So…

2:05Jawad MirOh, so you went to which university?

2:07Awais KhanWestern Ontario.

2:08Jawad MirWestern, yeah.

2:09Awais KhanYeah.

2:09Jawad MirYeah.

2:10Awais KhanSo…

2:10Jawad MirWhat year was that?

2:11Awais KhanAh, that was a long time ago now. It was from 2004 to 2008. So yeah, quite a bit of, quite a, quite some time ago.

2:21Jawad MirI guess you didn't like it enough not to stay, right?

2:24Awais KhanI actually d… you see, I didn't really have that kind of awareness at the, at that time.

2:29Jawad MirRight.

2:29Awais KhanYou know, if I had, I probably would have stayed, given what Pakistan is going through today. I mean, I wish that I had stayed over in Canada. But at the time, I guess I was just very invested in coming back to my country and all of that, so it never really occurred to me, even though it was very easy at that time. It was, like, super easy to get a Canadian passport. I mean, you didn't really n… need to do much. But I don't know.

2:54Jawad MirWell, that's, that's how life goes. It is what it is.

2:56Awais KhanYeah.

2:56Jawad MirIf you're meant to come back, you'll come back, I'm sure.

2:58Awais KhanYeah.

2:58Jawad MirI would love to start off with the beginnings of, you know, what kind of inspired you to become a writer. Was it an author? Was it a book? Was it somebody that you knew, that you looked up to? Kind of just unfold that and how that connected to what you studied, if you studied that, and to where you are today.

3:17Awais KhanI actually, in college, I didn't study creative writing at all.

3:22Jawad MirOf course.

3:23Awais KhanIt was actually after college, when I had finished my master's and everything, that I finally decided that I wanted to write, because I had been a lifelong reader. And I think somewhere down the line, maybe it was in college, I guess, in Canada, that I realized that this was actually a fully full-fledged industry and there were, like, publishers and there were, you know, bookshops and this and that, which we don't really see much of in Pakistan. So I think that's when the, when it sort of, hit me that this was actually an industry. So I just wanted to explore that. So after I was done with my master's, I, spoke to my parents and everything. I was like, "You know, I'd love to, pursue this as, an alternate career." So, they were, very supportive, surprisingly, as most parents in Pakistan wouldn't be, but they were. And, they financed all of these things. I took these very expensive courses in London. There was the six-month Faber Academy course, and then I took the three-month editing one as well. So, that is where I actually started, taking writing seriously.

4:25Awais KhanI finished my debut novel, while I was taking that course, and then it took a few years for me to edit it and then get an agent for it in the UK, and then obviously took a little time for it to get out. So I was 32 by the time my first book came out.

4:43Jawad MirAnd which one was that? Which book was that?

4:44Awais KhanThat was In the Company of Strangers. So it w… it came out in, when was it? Yes, July 2019. I remember now, yeah. It's some time…

4:54Jawad MirAnd can you tell me, can you tell me... I mean, it sounds like if you went to London and you were studying writing and then you were in the company of strangers, I don't know if it has any sort of relevancy to that.

5:05Awais KhanNo

5:05Jawad Mir... Tell me about the book itself, what's it about?

5:09Awais KhanIt's, it's actually, it's got nothing to do with London.

5:12Jawad MirOkay.

5:12Awais KhanIt's, it's, it's sort of based in entirely in Lahore, and it…

5:16Jawad MirOkay

5:16Awais Khan... It deals with the secrets and lives of Pakistan high society. So it's a very, it's a very Pakistani novel. But surprisingly, that book has done really well both in the UK and in Pakistan. I mean, naturally Pakistanis would be interested, but I wasn't expecting it to do so well in the UK. It was, published twice by different publishers and, it's, it's, it's done quite well. So yeah.

5:40Jawad MirW… when you say it was really received really well in the UK, was it, you, do you know that it was a demographic? Because in UK there's a lot of Pakistanis, right? So was it that…

5:50Awais KhanNo, that's…

5:50Jawad Mir... Demographic or was it…

5:50Awais Khan... The thing

5:51Jawad Mir... They're all?

5:52Awais KhanThat is one of the issues I have with British Pakistanis, that they're not as supportive as they should be, as other people are for their, authors I feel that British Pakistanis, yes, I have some really good British Pakistani readers, but we need… there is such a huge diaspora of, Brit… of Pakistanis in the UK. Absolutely huge.

6:12Awais KhanBut we don't get nowhere near as many sales as a result. Most of my readers are actually white, and that's, that's the, th… they're the ones who are reading my books mostly. I think 80, 85% of my, writers are non-Pakistani, sorry, readers are non-Pakistani. So it does, it does sort of, affect me sometimes and I wish that there was more support, because we s… we show the support to singers, we show the support to actors, to cricketers, but we don't show the support to our authors and I don't know why that is.

6:47Jawad MirAnd when you say 85% are white or non-Pakistani, that's only in UK or ev… like, basically in general?

6:53Awais KhanThe UK, in the UK. But I mean, in Pakistan obviously, my readers are Pakistani. But, you see Pakistan, unfortunately Pakistan doesn't count in the grand scheme of things. In, when you, when we talk about UK publishing or US publishing, Pakistan is merely a blip on their radar.

7:10Jawad MirYeah.

7:10Awais KhanThey don't care at all about Pakistan because the circulation is so little. And there's so few readers, even though we're a country of 200 and, what, 25 million, we don't really, or more, I don't, I think it's 240 million. I don't know. But yeah, but we don't have a lot of, readers, and the readers we do have either want the book for free or they'll just go ahead, go ahead and buy the pirated copy from Urdu Bazaar. So that's the thing.

7:40Jawad MirDo you think that, because in the '80s, so I grew up maybe the first 13 years in Pakistan and, you know, I didn't know any authors per se, but you know, dramas, there was a lot of great writers in the '80s and…

7:55Awais KhanYeah

7:55Jawad Mir... And stuff. Do you think there is a bigger readership for Urdu readers in Pakistan, or do you think that's kind of diminishing too?

8:03Awais KhanI think that is also diminishing. Maybe there are more Urdu readers than, English ones, as of now, but, it's the same story with Urdu, books as well. People gen… people want to buy them for 200, 300 rupees and they can get them from Urdu Bazaar or any, you know, all these Instagram online stores, they're all selling pirated copies. So I have lost count of the number of people who have tagged me in stories where they're reading my book and I look at it and it's obviously a pirated copy and I just don't know what to say to them because sometimes the readers don't even realize that they're buying pirated copies. So it's literally in the tens of thousands, the pirated copies of my books in tens of thousands, th… that's the number.

8:47Jawad MirWow.

8:47Awais KhanIt just, I think, I was like, you know, if all that money was came to me, I would be a rich man.

8:55Jawad MirBut I had, I mean, I know there's pirated copies obviously for movies and there's digital pirated copies. I never knew there was actually physical book pirated copies. Like…

9:04Awais KhanOh, they're, they do it immediately. As soon as the book comes out, they'll order one off of, you know, maybe Liberty Books or Readings. They're the ones who sell originals. So they'll pick up a copy from there and instantly get it, they'll copy it. And even worse, there's another thing, the PDFs. So what they'll do is that they will get the PDF from somewhere, or they'll download the book into PDF form, and then they'll circulate. So it's pre-reading for everyone. And I get like 20, 25 messages every day on my Instagram DMs. They're like, "Can you please share the PDF with me?" I'm like, "You know, it's one thing for you to get it from somewhere, but you're actually asking me to do this fraud and basically deprive myself of the, you know, my hard-earned money by asking me for PDFs." So I just, I genuinely don't know what to say to readers in Pakistan, and then they complain about the fact that we don't see a lot of Pakistani authors in the UK. I mean, this is the reason why you don't see. At the end of the day, it is a business. Publishers have to shift copies, and if you're all gonna buy pirated copies, then why would any publisher want to publish a Pakistani author?

10:10Awais KhanSo yeah.

10:10Jawad MirAnd you know, I can, I can second that because, I'm in the film industry, so I direct and produce films, and it's pretty much the same thing. And this is something that I've sort of talked about for the last 15 years, not just in terms of, okay, why my films, I'm just talking in general.

10:29Jawad MirYou know, you look at the world as it is with what's going on in the world, the narrative, and one of the reasons the narrative is more on the higher side on one side is because of storytelling.

10:42Awais KhanYeah.

10:42Jawad MirOne thing in the Muslim world, especially in Pakistanis, community, there's no storytelling. We don't value the storytelling. Look at India, look at, look at Bollywood, look at Hollywood. I mean, you can call it whatever, you know, but there is storytelling and people put money into it. R… it's a business at the end of the day. And yeah, we don't, we don't really support. We talk about it, but we don't really... I mean, there are some people, I won't say that they do now do a little bit of backing, but still not even remotely close to the way it should be because it…

11:17Awais KhanI, Nay… no, you're, I'm s… sorry to cut you off here…

11:19Jawad MirNo

11:19Awais Khan... But I absolutely wholeheartedly agree with you, and this is a Pakistani problem. This is not a South Asian problem. Indians are very supportive of each other.

11:28Jawad MirYeah.

11:28Awais KhanPakistanis, the first thought that comes to their mind is, "Let's pull this person down. Why is this person daring to, you know, rise up?" I won't take any names here, but I…

11:39Jawad MirNo

11:39Awais Khan... Actually went to a very big, director in Pakistan, very famous, and I went through po… proper contact. It wasn't a blind, contact or anything like that. I'd never blindly contacted them. I went through a very proper contact to get in touch and discuss, whether they'd like to be, you know, whether they'd like to acquire rights or what their advice might be on this because a lot of people keep telling me, "When is the movie gonna come out for your, one of your books?" and all of that. So I, so I went through a proper introduction. I never heard back and… This is the kind of, this is a, the, a person who pretends to be a huge supporter, and the, it makes me realize that deep down nobody, very few people in Pakistan will ever support you. Most of them will either dismiss you or they will get jealous and they'll dismiss you again. So it's either they don't think you're worth their time, and if they think you're worth their time, they'll, they'll be like, "Why is this person worth my time?" So they'll…

12:36Jawad MirYeah

12:36Awais Khan... You know, work double hard to bring you down. So this is…

12:41Jawad MirI don't know. Storytelling is just so important, man, and it's what you're doing is incredible because, you know, how many people know the stories? Because there are stories everywhere. There could be in the corner of, you know, indigenous people in Australia or they could be in Alaska or they could be in, you know, remote communities in Sin. And one of the things that I really like, and we're kind of on the subject of art and storytelling, what Coke Studio has done, especially in the last year or two, like where they find these talents, you know, in the middle of nowhere and they're telling their stories through music and people are embracing it. But the only reason people are embracing it because there's a big brand behind them.

13:22Awais KhanYeah.

13:23Jawad MirCoke, right? There's… ... Financially supporting them.

13:26Awais KhanAbsolutely.

13:26Jawad MirAnd it is, it is, yeah, I hear you, man. I hear you, I feel you, and at the end of the day it's not really necessarily about us, it's, but it's just about, okay, if we wanna tell our stories, let's, let's go. Let's, let's be on this road and…

13:41Awais KhanYeah

13:41Jawad Mir... Tell our stories.

13:41Awais KhanI, and you see, this is the thing. I, at the end of the day when people complain about it that why don't we see it, I just, I, that is what I want to reiterate. I'm like, "This is why you don't see a lot of Pakistani representation," because first of all we don't get support from our own people, and then second of all, what more can you expect than if your own people are not supporting you, how will anyone else support you?

14:05Jawad MirYeah.

14:05Awais KhanSo I do feel that, British publishing is, has given me a huge chance, and they basically took a punt on me and it worked. Yes, I mean, the books did well and everything, but they took a chance. My own people never took a chance on me. So all of this, the credit goes to, UK and to India because India, Simon & Schuster in India gave me a chance. They took on my book and they published it in South Asia, and, I mean, yes, they are responsible for the entire subcontinent and everything, but still, they are not bound to publish Pakistani authors, but they did. So, you know…

14:43Awais Khan... Credit, to give credit where it's due.

14:46Jawad MirYeah. No, absolutely. What about Canadians and, I mean, there's a lot of Pakistanis in Canada now.

14:51Awais KhanYes, I know, but… ... I have not been able to crack North America at all. North America is in a whole other world entirely, and with North America, again, there's that thing that we have a huge diaspora there, but the problem is that they're only interested in their own, like for example, Pakistani Americans. So publishers are generally more keen to publish Pakistani Americans rather than Pakistanis living in Pakistan. That is a huge issue and that is a huge block that we face.

15:19Jawad MirAnd I think that's because it ha… it has to, I think that has more to do with the audience than your book because…

15:25Awais KhanYeah

15:25Jawad Mir... There is, in America, like, you know, even like when I'm pitching, it's like the first question, "Who is your audience?" Right? If the Amer… if the audience is not American, "Okay, see you later." Right? So you have to have that ki… unless your characters are based in America and stuff and that there's that audience, that's sure. But one thing I would tell you is that maybe you wanna explore this. There is a very, there was this animated film that came out from Pakistan called The Glassworker. I'm sure you've heard of it.

15:56Jawad MirSome young kid, right, who made it? I don't know his name. I don't remember his name.

15:59Awais KhanI have, I think I have heard of it, yeah.

16:01Jawad MirYeah. So it got a lot of backing to push for the Oscar campaign here, in California. And in Silicon Valley there's a lot of prominent, Pakistanis who are really well off.

16:15Awais KhanWow.

16:15Jawad MirAnd, they actually, I mean, you have to be somebody in order for them to sort of push you. You have to have some sort of reputable…

16:26Awais KhanYeah

16:26Jawad Mir... You know, work.

16:27Awais KhanYeah.

16:27Jawad MirTry there because, I've sort of tried in that area too and, I would say it has worked maybe more than, definitely more than in Canada.

16:37Awais KhanOh, wow

16:38Jawad Mir... Not as much as I would like it to be, but it's still, if you c… it's about building relationships, right? If you connect with them and if you talk to them

16:46Awais KhanYeah, I would love to actually. My agent, is, based in the UK, so I think that is also a bit of an issue because with, so I do get a lot of exposure in the UK, but with the US I falter because of the fact that I never been there. I mean, last time I was there was when I was a kid. But yeah, that, these are some of the things, and I echo you, in the fact that, getting an introduction into these circles really matters, and if you have someone who can get you into these circles then, you know, it means, it basically that's half the work done, which is why I circle back to my earlier comment that it is so important for people who are p… in positions of power in this country to support emerging talent. And I mean, I'm still not as big as I would like to be. I'm, I think I'm nowhere yet, but I do my best to help anyone I can. So I mean, if you talk to people who know me and everything, I do try my best, and I try from the, it's not like I want anything from them.

17:47Awais KhanI just…

17:47Jawad MirYeah

17:47Awais Khan... Feel that we are so beleaguered as a country and, there is so much talent here, but all of it is in, most of it is untapped, so I try to do what I can to, you know, to help, fellow writers or, you know, as much as I can. But I feel…

18:07Jawad MirYeah

18:07Awais Khan... That people who are in bigger positions of power in this country should do more. Maybe even the government should do more. We don't have…

18:15Jawad MirYeah There should be like a, yeah, because arts would d… are what defines a society, a country, a group of people, whatever that is, right? Because, once we're all gone and done, what's left behind are stories.

18:31Awais KhanAbsolutely. So I'll actually send you, my, novel, one of my novels. I think you'll really enjoy reading it. So once we're done…

18:41Jawad MirSure, would love to

18:41Awais Khan... With, I'll, I'll get your details, and I'll, I'll mail you a copy.

18:47Jawad MirI would love to. I appreciate that. When you're writing, you know, they say write what you know, right? That's pretty much what works most of the time, if not all the time. What has been sort of your inspiration in any of your book, whether it's In the Company of Strangers, or like, what was the genesis of the idea? Like, was it some personal experiences or something that you had witnessed? Talk to me how that sort of flow kicks in. I mean, I know how... I kinda, I have an idea, but for my audience, I want to sort of, you know, be aware of how your work kicks in and what's the influence behind it.

19:25Awais KhanWell, I, as they say, writers are observers. I think it's, observation is key to being a good writer, and for In the Company of Strangers, yes, it is mostly based on observation. But then again, people ask me that, "Is this based on a specific person?" I'm like, "You know, it's based on everyone and no one."

19:42Awais KhanSo it's kind of like you choose bits and pieces out of people's lives and base your story on that. But if you're writing about a very, different social issue, like for example, my, the novel that I am most known for in the U… in the UK and internationally is No Honor. So that tackles honor killings, in Pakistan. So for that, I had to do a lot of research. So I had to actually go to, I went to South Punjab. My mother is from Multan, so I've been traveling to Multan. I've been going to Multan all my life. So I went to those smaller villages around Multan, and it took time to gain their trust. You needed to have someone who could make, a middleman who could build trust and everything. So I did my research. I took three years to write No Honor, and initially I was very, sort of, hesitant because I even told my agent that, "I don't think I'm the right person to be telling this story." And she's like, "At least try, and then we'll see how it goes." And then when I started writing it, I just, I, the words just flowed. So I think that when it comes to a social issue or a sensitive issue, then you need to do your research as well, even if it's fiction.

20:49Awais KhanYou need, it ha… it needs to have some grounding in reality, and that is very important because you can't really take a reader on a journey if it's the wrong journey, because readers are very clever these days. They immediately figure it out that you've not done your research. So yeah, so that's how it works for me.

21:06Jawad MirSo when you wrote the book No Honor, first of all, if you can just talk about what it's about, just the basic premise. And then when you were researching, did you speak to anybody, which I'm assuming that you did, who went through that?

21:20Awais KhanYeah.

21:20Jawad MirAnd what, if you can share a story of that, like what, who you spoke to, what you heard, and what your reaction was as a human being.

21:30Awais KhanWell, yes, so No Honor is basically the story of 16-year-old Abida and, her father Jamil. So it's about how Abida, lives in a very small Pakistani village that has its strict rules to adhere to. And when, the unthinkable happens to her, the, it is decided that she will get a very public, death, because she is in love with someone else and, obviously she falls pregnant, out of wedlock. So it is about how her father finally steps in and helps her es… escape, and helps her escape to Lahore where other dangers await her. And it's about,... And Abida goes to Lahore and disappears. So it, the book is about how her father follows her to Lahore and what happened.

22:20Awais KhanSo it's a very different take on the whole honor killing concept because a lot of people in Pakistan or in a, or, and abroad feel that fathers are always the evil figure.

22:32Jawad MirThe villains, yeah.

22:33Awais KhanThat is not always true, actually. Especially in rural areas, you will find that they are, in many ways, a bit more enlightened than people in urban areas. As far as family, families go, they are a little enlightened. Yes, the top figures would be very conservative, but the actual people, they are not that, backward in terms of their mindset. So I wanted to explore that, and yes, I did speak to people at, on the condition of anony… anonymity, obviously, because they couldn't afford to…

23:01Jawad MirSure

23:01Awais Khan... Let people know that happened to them. But yeah, but then obviously when you're writing fiction, you take some creative liberty as well. That is, that comes with the territory. So I did take some creative liberty as well, but yeah, a lot of it is rooted in what's actually happened, and the rest is my thoughts. And I feel that, important, I feel it important to mention here that, when you're writing something, this is a very big problem with Pakistani readers especially, that they feel that whatever is being written is the author's personal beliefs. So that is something that you need to be very careful about because whatever, if you're writing fiction, it is not necessarily the author's personal belief. Like for example, I could be writing about a murderer, but that doesn't make me a murderer, right?

23:45Jawad MirRight.

23:45Awais KhanSo it's very important, to understand that if you're writing about social issues like honor killing or misogyny or shaming or anything like that doesn't mean the author believes that too. So yeah.

23:57Jawad MirMakes sense. And I don't need to know any names, but whoever you spoke to, like when you were doing research…

24:04Awais KhanYeah

24:05Jawad Mir... You know, just tell me that process of how you got to that person, if you're willing to share, and then just…

24:10Awais KhanYeah

24:10Jawad Mir... Your own personal, you know, feelings and when you're hearing this story,... What you went through because y… obviously you gotta feel it before you write it, right?

24:22Awais KhanIt actually makes you feel like you live in a bubble in Pakistan because you realize that these are people that have very little, and even that little bit is snatched from them from time to time, and you realize that Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, they are basically bubbles. And we feel that we represent Pakistan, we are not representing Pakistan. We do not represent. It's those people who actually represent the majority of population of Pakistan, and it's th… they are the ones who are the real Pakistanis. And to see the hardships that they go… go through and for the smallest of things, and that makes you realize that, when people accuse you in Pakistan that, "Oh, you're portraying a very negative image of Pakistan by tackling these issues," I'm like, "Live as, live one day in their shoes. Spend one day in their shoes, and then you'll realize that, you know, these are things that have to be written about." And you can't just for the sake of, you know, portraying a positive image internationally, you can't brush these things under the rug.

25:23Jawad MirYeah.

25:24Awais KhanSo, yeah, so I feel that, there are a lot of filmmakers in Pakistan who have gotten a lot of flack for writing about things like honor killings and ... You know, making films about honor killings and all of that stuff, but I feel that was very necessary. I think they've done a great job, and, it is important to shine a light on these things.

25:45Jawad Mir100%. It's, it's absolutely true. And you know, when you're,... Sorry, I just had a question. I just lost my train of thought. What is an issue, a social issue? It sounds to me that you like to write about social issues…

26:05Awais KhanI do

26:06Jawad Mir... Right? And I think that because I'm somewhat in a similar boat, as much as I don't want to be, but that's just the way it is.

26:14Awais KhanYeah.

26:14Jawad MirIs there a social issue or a bunch of social issues that you would like to tackle that are gonna raise some eyebrows, in the society?

26:25Awais KhanI think, you know, I was actually very con… worried about No Honor because I felt that would be a bit poorly received in Pakistan, and that would raise a lot of eyebrows. But I'm actually pleasantly surprised at how unanimously, the praise has been from Pakistani readers as well. So that, you know, gives me hope that Pakistani readers are also evolving, and they're, you know, I think they're becoming, their eyes are opening towards what's happening in Pakistan. So yes, I mean, there are certain issues I guess that would, make anyone worry, but at the end of the day, I think as a writer, we shouldn't worry about these things because if we are not going to do our duty and shine light on these things, then what can we expect…

27:11Jawad MirExactly

27:11Awais Khan... From the people? So as far as, I mean, as long as mu… you should be as brave as you can be, and then leave the rest to fate.

27:22Jawad MirI'm just sa… asking, I'm, I'm not asking for anythi… other reason. Let's say No Honor, right?

27:26Awais KhanYeah.

27:27Jawad MirLike, if it was a Wes… nothing to do with me, if it was a Western producer that came on, you know, and said, "I wanna tell this story"…

27:35Awais KhanYeah

27:36Jawad Mir... Would you be open to that? The reason I ask is because sometimes there's that fear of them sort of exploiting the story and changing it up a little bit for their own political or narrative.

27:46Awais KhanI think it's actually better, that… ... To work with a Western producer because they have the money, and you don't, they, it's not necessarily exploitation if they have someone reasonable on board in terms of writing and, direction. So if they involve me in the writing process, and if they, if I am to work with the scriptwriter, I would be more than happy to do this. I would, I think they... You see, this is again another issue I have with Pakistanis, that they feel that anyone, if they, if anyone else is making anything on them, they're like, "No, they shouldn't be allowed to," but sometimes they do justice to our…

28:23Jawad MirI agree. I agree

28:23Awais Khan... You know, our issues and our... And it's not…

28:26Jawad MirBut, you know…

28:27Awais KhanIt's not an all-white operation anyway.

28:29Jawad MirWhat happens is, I've seen…

28:31Awais KhanYou see, a lot of Pakistan…

28:33Jawad MirSorry, go on.

28:35Awais KhanNo, you go, you go ahead.

28:37Jawad MirNo, but please, Awais, go ahead then. Go ahead.

28:40Awais KhanThere wa… there is a bit of delay I think, in this conversation, which is why we're spe… talking, speaking over each other, but I just meant that it's not usually an all-white operation anyway, that these days I think there is a certain awareness that if a producer is gonna take up a co… project based in Pakistan, they would not ask, you know, they wouldn't, they wouldn't have an all-white crew for it. So they would probably want a Pakistani writer to consult on it, and they would probably want a Pakistani director to be involved in some capacity, so they're not stupid. So a lot of people here think that, oh, y… you know, they're pandering to the West. They're, the ma… the white gaze and this and that. Yes, to some extent, yes, that happens, but m… you just, you have to give cr… credit to these people as well that they're not stupid. They will not make a project on something that they have no understanding of, so.

29:28Jawad MirYeah, and the reason I ask you that, so there's, I a… I also believe, doesn't matter about this conversation, that e… we all have our own perspectives and our, for the lack of better word, I don't wanna use the word agenda, but we all have our agendas, right? We all have certain things to say that we wanna say. But I do think you're right because, I have seen that in front of my eyes. It's like, oh, you're gonna go to X, Y, Z. You know, why them? Okay, well, why not... Okay, you're willing to back it up? Do you have money? You know, do you have access? Do you have resources?

29:57Awais KhanI don't, yeah.

29:57Jawad MirRight? No, okay, then what? Who's gonna, who's gonna, are you gonna pay my bills? Are you gonna take care of my, you know, salary and everything?

30:04Awais KhanExactly.

30:04Jawad MirNo? Okay. So you're right. I mean, there, espe… I would say probably 25 years ago, like before 9/11, things were different, but I think, incidentally today is September 11th.

30:17Awais KhanOh, yeah.

30:17Jawad MirAfter 9/11, there has been a lot of, in Hollywood, and even UK, there's a lot of consultation Like they bring people on board just to make sure that certain things…

30:27Awais KhanYeah

30:27Jawad Mir... Are done properly. Still sometimes they fall short, but hey, it's, to me it's better than nothing. It's a small progress, and look where we have come. I mean, now it's like a totally different ballgame, you know, how you, everybody has social media. People will erupt if you s… you know, and now it's gone the other direction where…

30:46Awais KhanI know

30:46Jawad Mir... Things might be okay what they're saying or people might take offense to it. So, you know, it's just a kinda like a pendulum that swings back and forth.

30:54Awais KhanIt is, it is tough, and it's also tough for writers these days because people, like I said, that people often mistake what they read in a book as the author's personal beliefs, and they're like…

31:03Jawad MirYeah

31:03Awais Khan... "This is what the author thinks of." I'm like, I'm like, "This is the basic, first basic rule of fiction, that whatever you're writing is not your personal belief." It could be, but it's generally not. So I think that, you should take whatever you read in fiction with a huge pinch of salt.

31:19Jawad MirYeah.

31:19Awais KhanUnless it's a memoir, these are not the author's personal thoughts.

31:23Jawad MirI agree. I agree.

31:24Awais KhanSo yeah.

31:24Jawad MirAside from your books that are possibly gonna be turned into films, which I hope they do, anything that you are w… that you want to, that you're researching, that you're probably in the process, without I not knowing anything about the story, that you want maybe just talk, t… touch upon the topic that you're tackling in the next, let's say, few years or three years?

31:46Awais KhanI, yeah, so I have actually finished writing, my next book. I, it's, it's with my agent at the moment. This one is about, I wanted to, examine the, sort of divide between the rich and poor in Pakistan. So this is about two women in very different circumstances, but how they come together.

32:07Awais KhanHow circumstances bring them together. Th… that is one project, and then there's another book that I've almost finished, and that one I'm, obviously I'm not gonna, share the story, but that one is interesting to me for one big reason, and that is that the protagonist is a 77-year-old female in that book.

32:27Jawad MirOh, nice. That's, that's very different.

32:28Awais KhanSo I feel that elderly people are not wr… older people are not written about. Or we don't have a lot of older characters, especially older main characters in Pakistani fiction, and that is something I really want to change. And I want to show that, just because you're past a certain age, you're over a certain age, doesn't mean that the passion for life fades or, you know, your dreams fade or, you know, that life itself fades. So this is a project that's very close to my heart, and I can't wait to share it with everyone.

32:57Jawad MirYeah. Good for you, man. Good for you. How long does it take you to write a book from research to finishing research and then starting to writing the manuscript and writing and writing? Like, what's... I know it differs from project to project, but still, just to kinda get an average overview.

33:13Awais KhanI don't know. Very, that's a very good question actually, and I think it totally depends on the kind of book you're writing. Like for example, with In The Company of Strangers, I wrote it in six months while I was taking the course. With No Honor it took three years. With my latest, which is In the Shadows of Love, it's the sequel to In the Company of Strangers, because In the Company of Strangers did so well, my publishers in the UK were like, "Would you be open to writing a sequel?" So I wrote it. They gave me a three-month deadline for that timeline, so, I wrote that in three months. So it totally depends on the kind of book you're writing.

33:45Awais KhanIf it's something that t… needs a lot of research, then you need to give it time. But if it's something that predominantly based on res… on observation and what you have lived through yourself, then I think you can write in a month or two. It's, it's, it's that easy. So it totally depends on the content that you're writing.

34:02Jawad MirYeah. Awesome. And I was just gonna ask you, again, I had a th… sort of brain freeze here. When you are, you know, yeah, when you are writing a book, whether you're in the middle, you're in the beginning, or you're close to the end, I'm sure you've had, I don't like to use the word writer's block, but you know, there's, there's always those moments when you're sort of like stuck and you're…

34:29Jawad Mir... Trying to figure out, okay, if this character should go on this journey, and if he or she does, then is that connecting to the next set of events, there's a flow, and is it realistic and all that. Has there been, I'm sure there's been more than, but if you can remember one time that you had that moment where you couldn't figure things out and how to move forward in the story, what did you do to sort of…

34:54Awais KhanYou know…

34:55Jawad Mir... Figure that out? Would you take a break?

34:57Awais KhanI, you see, the, I have the answer to this now. I used to think that there was no answer to this, that there was no cure for writer's block, but there is, and that cure is a deadline. I swear it really works.

35:09Jawad MirI agree with you.

35:10Awais KhanI was, I was in, at the Emirates Festival last year, and, I had a deadline for my latest book, and I was, and I wrote to my publisher and agent. I was like, "Oh, actually I'm at the festival. I'm having a great time. I just don't have the inspiration right now," and I was supposed to send the book in. And I was like, "I just have a couple more chapters to go. Is it okay if I send after a month?" And they wrote back to me that, "We have a timeline, and you have to deliver on the deadline, and this is the deadline." And the deadline was like a, in a week. And then I was at the festival, but because I was, it was like a sword, hanging over my head, I, by hook or by crook, I finished it. And I, you'd be surprised, the inspiration did come to me, and I felt that maybe this was m… like horrible work, and I was like, "No, this is probably my worst work." I sent it to my agent, and then she sent it to the publisher, and the publisher got back to me. She's like, "Awais, this I think is your best work." I'm like, "Are you actually for real?" And she's like, "Yes." So I'm like, "Okay, then that means that I go… I do well under pressure." I think that is the cure for writer's block.

36:11Awais KhanIf you don't have an external deadline, then set one for yourself. Give yourself a month or two months, and then, you know, you automatically, your brain, your mind goes into that sort of, mindset. Your brain starts acting that way, and it will… Continue getting inspired that way. So…

36:29Jawad MirI could, I couldn't agree with that more. Almost 100% of what I've done in the last 25 years of my life, whether... You know, it has been creative. Whether it's a, branding stories for companies, whether it's commercial, whether it's events, anything, even like f… documentaries that I've directed, any time I have been under tight deadline, because you don't start to second-guess yourself. You start going with your instincts, right? Instincts normally almost close to 100% of the time are accurate. And then you just go…

37:01Awais KhanAbsolutely

37:02Jawad Mir... Boom. Because yeah, when you start thinking…

37:04Awais KhanExactly that

37:05Jawad Mir... "Well, what this happened, that happened, what I do?" Then you're done. You're screwed.

37:09Awais KhanDon't have time to second-guess yourself when you're on a deadline.

37:12Jawad MirYeah.

37:12Awais KhanAnd I think that really works, and we trust our gut, and we go ahead with it. So I think it really helps.

37:17Jawad Mir100%.

37:17Awais KhanYeah.

37:18Jawad MirAmazing, man. Are you, just to kind of wrap things up, is there something that you wanna do, for upcoming writers, maybe workshops, or are you planning on something, or, you know, just in…

37:29Awais KhanI actually run, Pakistan's biggest, creative writing school. So I've been doing that…

37:36Jawad MirSure

37:36Awais Khan... For the last 10 years now.

37:38Jawad MirGood for you, man.

37:38Awais KhanAnd I mean, it's, it used to be a physical thing. It was a physical location in Lahore, but now we've moved entirely online after COVID. So we basically, w… I have taught over 10,000 people. 10,000 people have, over 10,000 people have taken my courses. And in addition to that, I also offer edit… editing services. So I have edited, I think, over 100 people, and a lot of the people I have edited, a lot of the au… these authors have gone on to secure agents and publishing deals. And, so yeah, so I mean, I'm definitely not bragging. None of this is to do with me.

38:13Jawad MirNo. This is great.

38:13Awais KhanIt's all to do with their talent.

38:14Jawad MirYeah.

38:14Awais KhanI'm just there to hone it a little bit and just elevate it a little bit. But I do try my best. And, I started off with charging... I mean, for my courses, I still charge a very small fee. Like, for example, a course in the UK would cost you, a six-week course would be easily for 300 or 400 pounds easily.

38:34Jawad MirYeah.

38:34Awais KhanI charge 1,500, 15,000 rupees, which is, what? Not even, which is not even 50 pounds. So…

38:41Jawad MirYeah

38:41Awais Khan... So that's, these are the charges. Because I know that Pakistanis can't afford to pay that kind of money. And even with my editing, my rates for Pakistani authors are a… almost half of what I charge someone who's not from Pakistan. I try to do as much as I can, but like you said, that at the end of the day you have to pay the bills somehow, so I can't really do it all for free.

39:03Jawad MirYeah. No, you shouldn't, because it's not even about just pa… paying the bills, but it also devalues your work, right?

39:09Awais KhanIt does. It does.

39:10Jawad MirLike for example, like these two posters right in the back are two of my, films, and whenever I meet somebody, what, there would be always like one person who would ask every few weeks, "So is it on YouTube?" "No, you have to rent it or you have to, you know, buy it." "Why don't you put it on YouTube?"

39:32Awais KhanRight.

39:32Jawad MirWhy would I? You know, if you, if you really wanna watch it, then you'll go watch it, because if it's on YouTube, you're still not gonna watch it, so why should I? So it's all about deval… not devaluing your work too.

39:41Awais KhanYeah.

39:41Jawad MirIt's not necessarily just about money, which as important as it is, but when you put something out for free, then people don't care for it.

39:46Awais KhanNo, yeah. That's a great point.

39:47Jawad MirPeople don't care for it.

39:48Awais KhanI mean, I get asked all the time that, "When will your books, be adapted by Netflix?" I'm like, "You know, I wish it was that easy to get in touch with Netflix."

39:56Jawad MirI know. I know.

39:56Awais KhanAnd you know, they seem to think that I'm just one step away from signing a deal with Netflix. I'm like, "You know, I just wish it was true," but it isn't unfortunately. And as like there are a lot of slips between the cup and the lips in this industry, so I don't know when or if my work will ever be adapted. I mean, the best I can do is I can sign them off for a reasonable amount, and that's it. I don't have control after that.

40:20Jawad MirYeah.

40:20Awais KhanSo.

40:21Jawad MirYeah, no.

40:22Awais KhanYeah.

40:22Jawad MirInshallah, man. For sure. No, that's great. Anything else you wanna sort of wrap up by? This has, been really a pleasure, and thank you for being open… ... And or… organic and authentic and everything. It's been really nice.

40:32Awais KhanYeah. No, I feel I've always been very spontaneous with my, interviews and with everyth… with anything in life, even with my creative, my books and everything. I've always believed in spontaneity, and I've always believed in kindness as well. Also, the value of, giving back and getting back. And because you, when you give back, you sort of get a lot in return as well, and I have built so many connections because of the fact that I may have done someone a good turn, and, it sort of comes back to me tenfold. So I do, I totally believe in that, and I, because this is a, because you have interviewed so many big people and so many popular, famous people…

41:09Jawad MirI know

41:09Awais Khan... Much more popular than I would be ever.

41:12Jawad MirWe're all the same, man.

41:12Awais KhanSo it is a huge honor to be on this podcast, and thank you so much for your support and for showing interest in Pakistani authors, because we, don't get a lot of interest. And it, whenever someone does show interest, it's, I think, it's, it's really nice, and it feels really nice, so thank you for that.

41:30Jawad MirNo, thank you for being on the podcast. I mean, I learned something new…

41:33Awais KhanI appreciate it

41:34Jawad Mir... That I didn't know before, and I'm looking forward to reading your books. I'm not a fast reader.

41:39Awais KhanYeah, please.

41:39Jawad MirI'll be very honest. I'm a very slow reader.

41:40Awais KhanNo. Oh, no issues at all. Just send me, just email me your details, and I'll, I'll pop some copies over to you.

41:47Jawad MirSounds great, man. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

41:50Awais KhanYou as well. Thank you. Okay then, take care.

41:52Jawad MirAll right.