'The Lost Bus', Editor, Peter Dudgeon, Matthew McConaughey

0:00Jawad MirIt's more tedious to do a single-camera sh… shot in terms of, shoot in terms of post-production because in, you know, three-camera shoot you can just ch, and then ch, you know, chop it out b… based on the time code. Which one do you prefer?

0:13Peter DudgeonGosh, you know, that's a good question. I don't, I don't necessarily have a preference. You know, Paul's films are, the way that he shoots them and the fact that he uses two, three cameras, sometimes four cameras, makes sense for his films because…

0:27Peter Dudgeon... He comes from a documentary back… background. The way that he shoots his films, is very kind of like first person as if you're r… right there in the story with these characters. To have three or four cameras going for a film like The Lost Bus or any of his other films, it makes sense because tonally it works. To cut between all of those cameras is less problematic because the pace and the, and the feel of the film is hectic and kind of unsettling.

1:05Jawad MirGood afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to yet another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast, the making of stories. I'm your host Joe Adnier. Today my guest is Peter Dudgeon, who is the editor, one of the editors, on Matthew McConaughey Apple TV+ film, The Lost Bus. The Lost Bus is based on a true story that took place in the year 2018 during the wildfires in California. It was a delight speaking to Peter. He had some wonderful insights about the workflow of the editing process in the film, working with his mentors on the film, and many other things that we talked about, including the presence of fire included in cuts, working on, Paul Greengrass, the director of Bourne films, what was that like, and so much more. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Peter for The Lost Bus starring Matthew McConaughey on Apple TV+. I just literally, two hours ago finished watching The Lost Bus.

1:53Peter DudgeonOh, wow. Okay

1:54Jawad Mir... So I had seen the trailer a while back, and, it, the film kinda went, off my radar just for many reasons, but I really was taken by the trailer and I wasn't in any way disappointed with the film.

2:10Peter DudgeonOh, good

2:11Jawad Mir... Really well done. Paul Greengrass, of course, and, the editing, the cinematography. I think your, along with yourself, William was on the, on the film as well, Goldenberg, the other…

2:23Peter DudgeonBilly Goldenberg. Yeah.

2:24Jawad MirYeah.

2:24Peter DudgeonWilliam Goldenberg and

2:26Jawad MirYeah

2:26Peter Dudgeon... Paul Rabel, who's another editor.

2:29Jawad MirYeah.

2:30Peter DudgeonYeah.

2:30Jawad MirYeah, it was, it was really well executed, so I just wanna sort of say that off the top…

2:34Peter DudgeonOh, thank you

2:35Jawad Mir... Right at the beginning.

2:35Peter DudgeonThank you. Appreciate that. Yeah.

2:37Jawad MirHow did you get in… into the film considering, I mean, I, being in the industry, I know how sort of the workflow works sometimes with editors and, you know… ... With different people in the crew.

2:48Peter DudgeonSure.

2:48Jawad MirJust tell me your version of how you got involved in the, in the film.

2:52Peter DudgeonSure, yeah. So Lost, The Lost Bus was, is the third film that I've done with Paul Greengrass. I came up as I think, m… maybe a lot of editors, maybe not a lot of editors, but as some editors I came up as an assistant editor, and worked under, William Goldenberg, Billy, for many years. The first two Greengrass movies I did were, the first was 22 July, which was a story about a terrorist attack that happened in Norway. I think it was, God, 2011, I think is when the terrorist attack happened. But, we did that, and then the second film that we did was News of the World with him. And both of those films I was working as an assistant but also did some additional editing on those films. And then when The Lost Bus came up, Paul Rabel started the film, and there was just, you know, Paul Greengrass shoots a lot of footage.

4:00Jawad MirYeah

4:00Peter Dudgeon... And so there's a lot to handle, and, they wanted another editor on to just kind of like handle the load of all of the stuff that was coming in. And because I had worked with Paul previously and kind of have a shorthand with him, Paul Rab… Paul Greengrass, they asked if I would come and, come and help out. So I came on and, first cut the film with Paul Rabel. And the plan was always for William Goldenberg to come on in post after they had finished the film

4:35Jawad MirSure

4:35Peter Dudgeon... Or after they had, after they had fin… finished shooting and then finish it. He was, he was directing, his first film, when The Lost Bus started filming, so there was a bit of an overlap where he couldn't come on. So

4:50Jawad MirRight

4:50Peter Dudgeon... That's kinda how I, how I came to it, so yeah.

4:55Jawad MirI had, the pleasure of having William on the podcast with Joel when they did the Trans… the most recent Transformers.

5:02Peter DudgeonOh, yeah.

5:03Jawad MirRight? And I think the last movie, the movie that he was directing, I forget the name. I know I've seen it. The sports one, the one with the,..

5:12Peter DudgeonUnstoppable.

5:13Jawad MirUnstoppable, yeah. I…

5:15Peter DudgeonYeah

5:15Jawad Mir... I've had Sal Ventino, on the podcast a few times, who was with DP on that.

5:21Peter DudgeonYeah.

5:22Jawad MirYeah. No, it's, it's, it's, it's incredible. Look, Paul Greengrass, I've seen a lot of his films. I mean, he's mainly known for the Bourne films and, you know, his style and his approach is very kind of like documentary approach.

5:36Jawad Mir... You know, just shaking camera and lots of cuts and lots of movement, and it really en… engages you in. And what I loved about The Lost Bus was when I... So without giving away, the film, because normal… it's not really a disaster movie because it's based on a true story.

5:55Peter DudgeonRight.

5:55Jawad MirBut if you were to watch a disaster film, normally there's a big epic, you know… like whether you're watching Twisters or Dante's Peak or…

6:05Peter DudgeonRight

6:05Jawad Mir... Independence Day, there's this massive big attack or big event that, happens and the film sort of wraps up.

6:12Peter DudgeonRight.

6:12Jawad MirWith this, you are still about 20 minutes away from the end of the film, when all the hell that breaks loose kind of passes by, because there is more to the story. And I…

6:24Peter DudgeonYeah

6:24Jawad Mir... I love that, because it's, it's a story about a father and a son, him being a son and his father, and then him being… ... A father and his son. There's a lot of human connection, which is why I enjoyed it very much. It connected you to the film.

6:37Peter DudgeonYeah. I think, you know, it's funny that you say that it was a dis… it's kind of like a disaster film. When we were first cutting the film and the first few passes that I did on scenes, it... Without all of the VFX in the film, at that point it felt a lot more like a drama. You know, like a personal drama story about a man who had kind of burned out, lost his relationship with his father, and was trying to regain a relationship with his son. And it felt a lot more like a drama. But then w… when the VFX started to filter in and you saw the flames and all of those scenes were flushed out, it does start to feel a little bit more like a disaster movie, i… in the lane of Twister. But it's also, you know, there's also the theme of just this monster, the fire f… following them, you know, catching up with them.

7:43Peter DudgeonAnd so there's that element, too, where the fire is almost like a creature that is, that's ... That's hunting them down or closing in on them.

7:56Jawad MirYeah. I mean, there were some shots in there, you know, where the camera kind of move, which is the fire.

8:00Peter Dudgeonyeah.

8:01Jawad MirIt's kind of like an aerial shot kinda coming down and swiveling away, and, it reminded me a lot of, I don't know if you've seen Backdraft, Ron Howard film with…

8:09Peter DudgeonOh, yeah. Sure

8:09Jawad Mir... Kris Offer. Right?

8:10Peter DudgeonYeah.

8:11Jawad MirThere was, because fire was a character in that film, and essentially…

8:14Peter DudgeonExactly

8:14Jawad Mir... Is in this film, too.

8:15Peter DudgeonSame thing, yeah.

8:17Jawad MirS… so with this, I figured there were a lot of VFX in there. But in a lot of the shots when the camera is moving really fast sideways and kind of at an angle from the fire to the bus, it's hard for me to imagine that those shots were VFX, because f… in order... You know, you can do VFX quite easily, I would say, when it's, like, static cut to cut or pan, but when the camera is doodling around so much, I am not sure if that's... You tell me. Was, it was all the fire in the film VFX, aside from the many close-ups and stuff, like the bigger…

8:53Peter DudgeonNot…

8:53Jawad Mir... Fires?

8:54Peter DudgeonNot all of it. So when they shot, they did a l… they had some practical fire on set. But it wasn't even close to the scale of what w… is the finished product in the film. So they pumped, propane through these kind of, like, I don't know, the best way to describe it is, like, bushes, metal bushes without the foliage.

9:20Peter DudgeonYou know, just these, like, little branches that would, that would, you know, shoot fire out and burn. It was a safe way for them to burn. And so that practical fire was present in some of the scenes, for a couple purposes also. Obviously you wanted some fire there. But also the bounce, the light off of it helped, because that's, that's a harder thing to fake than actually doing, like, VFX of a fire. You know…

9:57Jawad MirYeah

9:57Peter Dudgeon... Getting that, like, light bouncing off of the characters' faces. So it was a, it was a combination, but a lot of, a lot of the big... I'm trying to think of a good example. You know, so there, when they get kind of stuck at that intersection, which is Clark Road, and…

10:21Peter Dudgeon... Kevin, Matthew McConaughey's character, gets out of the bus and kind of, like, you know, directs them through that intersection. That roof that went on fire initially that everybody panics about and everybody's trying to get… That had some practical fire on it, but then that's all enhanced from there.

10:39Jawad MirYeah.

10:39Peter DudgeonSo it was, it was a big combination. And most of the driving scenes were done kind of twice. Once was practically out on a location. There was, like, a big back lot that they shot on, and, McConaughey wanted to drive the bus. So all the shot, all the scenes were shot that way. And then there was a lot that was filled in on a stage, where there was blue screen surrounding the bus, and then these, like, LED lights that threw light and ambient light onto them.

11:16Peter Dudgeon... So it was a, it was a giant combination. But the VFX department did an amazing job, and they took a lot of the elements of the practical fire that was caught on camera and helped incorporate that into the VFX that they actually ended up doing, just to make it feel real and rooted in reality.

11:39Jawad MirYeah. And real it felt. I mean, that's why I kinda got a little uncertain about what was VFX, which is a great thing because that means the…

11:47Peter DudgeonYeah

11:47Jawad Mir... Execution has been done properly.

11:49Peter DudgeonYeah.

11:49Jawad MirAnd I genuinely believe Matthew McConaughey, was born to play this character. I mean, I think he did…... A phenomenal job. Even though with his stature of stardom…

12:00Peter DudgeonYeah

12:00Jawad Mir... To play a bus driver, you know, with a broken relationship, with money issues…

12:05Peter DudgeonSure

12:06Jawad Mir... It's not, it's not an easy thing, and I think he did a phenomenal job doing that. I mean, he's great.

12:09Peter DudgeonYeah, no, he's great, and America Ferrera's g… I mean, all the performances in it are really fantastic.

12:14Jawad MirYeah.

12:14Peter DudgeonThey did a great job. Yeah. Yeah.

12:16Jawad MirTe… tell me about the workflow. I'm assuming you guys used Avid?

12:21Peter DudgeonYeah

12:22Jawad MirJust the workflow of how you worked on this film from the time the dailies kinda came in, logging, organizing, and, you know, working between the editors. Just talk to me…

12:34Peter DudgeonSure

12:34Jawad Mir... About that.

12:35Peter DudgeonWell, the, we had several assistants on the film, or not several, but a handful of assistants on the film. And they did, you know, all the ingesting and prepping of the dailies so that they were ready for us to cut. In terms of the process of how I tend to work, and similar to how, similar to Paul Rebill and to Billy, is I will get in early in the morning, and normally we'll put together just a cam roll, like a string out of a scene. So I'll take a scene and put all of the takes out in a big string out, you know, obviously lift out slate, you know, before action, after cut, and start watching that. And then, as I'm watching that I'll, I'll put markers throughout that string out, of moments that stand out, that feel like, "Wow, I should, we should have that in the scene," performance, or just something that a camera catches.

13:44Peter DudgeonAnd then, you know, with Paul's films it's, because there's so much footage, sometimes you ha… I have, I had time to do the next step, which is, something that I learned from Billy and from Paul Rebill called a line by line.

14:04Peter DudgeonAnd it's essentially similar to, huh, I don't wanna say similar to the script function in Avid, but it's essentially you're lining up, you're taking all of the takes, all of the coverage, and putting all of the lines together so that, so that you're, you've got all of one line together in one chunk, and then the next character's line in the, in…

14:31Peter Dudgeon... Another chunk. So normally you'd start with a wide shot, and if, you know, the character says, "Hey, how you doing?" you got, "Hey, how you doing? Hey, how you doing? Hey, how..." All of the coverage of that line. And then you would jump to the other character's response, hear the "Hey, how you doing" off camera, and then their line, and you'd string them out, and then you'd just go bip throughout the whole scene. That way you've got it all strung out, you've got all of your takes, all of the performances, and you can choose which ones you like. And it's, it's an easy way to get back to…

15:07Jawad MirSure

15:07Peter Dudgeon... You know, to be able to, in post when you're with the director reviewing a scene, get back to that and go, "Oh, well there's this take too." sometimes that's possible, sometimes it's not because y… you're in such a hurry that you can't do a full line by line, 'cause it takes time. For scenes that are not dialogue heavy, I would do a similar thing, which is like, for example, when they, get to Camp Creek Road, which is kind of the trailer park where, Mary's character, or M… Mary gets off the bus and goes to look for water.

15:43Peter DudgeonWhen they're making that escape out of the trailer park, there's all these turns where they stop 'cause there's fire in front of them, and they back up and they go a different way. So it's a similar thing with that. I'm cutting together, I'm treating all of those stops, like the travel to the stop, as one line, and putting together all of the coverage of that, and then jumping to the next portion of their journey. And I'm putting all of those together in a, in a string out so that I've got each step of the scene there, and you can choose and cut that way. That's kind of my process, and similar to how Billy and Paul w… work as well. I don't wanna speak for them, but

16:24Jawad MirNo, I get it. So just to kind of go back to what you were saying, so obviously…

16:28Peter DudgeonSure

16:28Jawad Mir... If it's, if it's a three-camera shoot, right?

16:32Peter DudgeonYes.

16:32Jawad MirThen you match, you got everything in sync based on time code, right? But if you're shooting with one camera and you got coverage, on the timeline, do you have, let's say, you know, Kevin's character, all of the takes in one go? And then, you know, let's say the boss, her lines in one go, all the takes.

16:59Jawad MirAnd then the wide. And then you, I'm guessing you do markers just to kind of pinpoint where is what scene, and then kind of figure that way out to putting that together. Is that what you were suggesting, or did I misunderstand that?

17:09Peter DudgeonYou mean as a, you mean as a full film, or…

17:11Jawad MirAs a scene

17:12Peter Dudgeon... No.

17:12Jawad MirAs a, as a scene.

17:14Peter DudgeonYeah. So you would take all the raw takes, for a scene and string them out in that way. So one character's line, then the next character's line, and all of their coverage that is on them, and you put it all together so that you've got the whole scene there, li… you know, the dialogue from the whole scene from start to finish. And then you're putting markers on that, choosing which performances you want…

17:36Jawad MirRight

17:36Peter Dudgeon... Lifting those out and putting them into a sequence, building the scene that way.

17:41Jawad MirWhich obviously it's more tedious to do a single camera sh… shot in terms of, shoot, in terms of post-production, because you're doing all this legwork. In, you know, three camera shoot you can just ch, and then ch, you know, chop it out b… based on the time code. Which one do you prefer, just personal opinion, like that you enjoy doing the most? Which one gives you more freedom?

18:05Peter DudgeonGosh, you know, that's a good question. I don't, I don't necessarily have a preference just across the board. I would say, you know, Paul's films are, the way that he shoots them and the fact that he uses two, three cameras, sometimes four cameras…... Makes sense for his films because…

18:25Peter Dudgeon... He comes from a documentary back… background. The way that he shoots his films, is very kind of like first person as if you're right there in the story with these characters. So to have three or four cameras going for a film like The Lost Bus or any of his other films, it makes sense because tonally it fits. It works. And so to cut between all of those cameras is less problematic because the pace and the, and the feel of the film is, hectic and kind of unsettling. And so you accept a certain degree of like, "Oh, wait. Why did we, like, cut to that?" Or like, you know, why did that not match perfectly? Whereas a different style of film that shoots just one camera, you know, you're relying a lot more on continuity, on matching, on making sure that your cuts match in a way that maybe you don't…

19:24Jawad MirRight

19:24Peter Dudgeon... Have to necessarily i… in a film like Paul's. So I don't prefer one over the other. I think that, I guess, the way that Paul shoots his films, I would say that having all of those cameras and all of those options is ki… kind of invigorating and exciting.

19:47Peter DudgeonSo I like that aspect of it, that there's so much going on that you can get these little moments, you know, while you're, while you're on, you know, for example, when the fire chief, the Cal Fire chief comes up to the big rendezvous point, and they're showing him where the fire is on the map. You know, obviously you can use the coverage of the fire chief speaking to his deputies, but then B camera or C camera will catch him grabbing a walkie-talkie off the back of a truck. And just having those options to cut away to is kind of fun, to have that because you're getting all this color of like the way that these people actually function in their world…

20:30Jawad MirYeah

20:30Peter Dudgeon... If that makes sense. I don't know if that answers your…

20:31Jawad MirNo, it does

20:33Peter Dudgeon... Question.

20:34Jawad MirAnd you mentioned color, and I love the fact that, I've said this to so many, on so many episodes to so many people, you know, David Fincher was the one who started this kind of like a, if you wanna call it like a monotone kind of a feel of the colors…

20:50Jawad Mir... In his film. His style is very unique. Like all of his films are very much alike in terms of the tone. And then I noticed like, you know, a lot of other people, whether they're producers or directors or streaming platform or studio, started doing that. And…

21:05Jawad Mir... I am s… I personally am not a fan of that stuff any longer because it's gotten too much, and I like to be involved into like the depths of colors. Which is why I think Barbie did really well aside from a good film. Avatar is gonna do really well. And The Lost Bus feels, fits in that category with felt like something I was watching from the '90s or the '80s, and the colors were just…

21:28Peter DudgeonYeah

21:28Jawad Mir... So, you know, so much there and they just... Even in the... And one thing I loved was, you know, like when they're in the bus and when you're shooting digital and there's no light, you see that, those little grains, those color grains that come up.

21:43Peter DudgeonYeah.

21:44Jawad MirRight? And that was there, and I love that, and I thought that was…

21:47Peter DudgeonYeah

21:47Jawad Mir... Really cool. Instead of just lighting it up to make the frame look great, I mean, I thought it was fantastic.

21:53Peter DudgeonYeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think that's, you know, again, that speaks to Paul's style. He's not…

21:58Jawad MirYeah

21:59Peter Dudgeon... It's, it's, it's, he's not looking for a polished frame. He's looking for something that feels real and honest, right? So…

22:07Jawad MirYeah

22:08Peter Dudgeon... So it isn't necessarily like a lockdown super composed shot all the time. It's like catching something that you wouldn't ever catch with a super lockdown…

22:20Jawad MirYeah

22:20Peter Dudgeon... Composed shot, and that's... Yeah.

22:23Jawad MirAnd I, it's also to the type of films that he does demand that, I think. You know, if he was, if he was doing a film like, let's say I was just talking to Dan, who was the DP on the most recent, K… Frankenstein film by G… Guillermo.

22:38Peter DudgeonYeah. Yeah.

22:38Jawad MirCompletely different cinematography, right? Like it's like…

22:41Peter DudgeonSure

22:41Jawad Mir... You know, so it depe… depends on the story what that demands. But

22:45Peter DudgeonYeah

22:45Jawad Mir... I just wanted to point that out. I wanna go back to your career. I went through your IMDb, and I think you mentioned it too. You've worked as… assistant editor in a lot of films. Including at the, if IMDb is correct, one of my favorite film, Bumblebee.

23:02Peter DudgeonOh, yeah

23:02Jawad Mir... Which…

23:02Peter DudgeonYeah

23:03Jawad Mir... Which I think is the best Transformer film ever made.

23:06Peter DudgeonYeah. Yeah.

23:06Jawad MirA… after the first Transformer. You know, tell me about what got you into post-production and editing. What was the bug? Was it a film, or was it…

23:15Peter DudgeonIt was…

23:15Jawad Mir... Were you just thrown into this world accidentally?

23:18Peter DudgeonI wouldn't say that it was accidentally. I, but I also wouldn't say that there was one particular film that I watched and thought, "Oh, I wanna be an editor." I mean, I think from a very young age, I just loved movies. You know, I grew up watching Star Wars and Back to the Future and Indiana Jones and then, you know, from there my taste in cinema and film kind of expanded and watched other things. So I've always known from a young age that I wanted to work in the film industry. I went to, grad school for film directing and…

24:02Peter Dudgeon... When I was, when I was at film school, I did all of my editing. So, you know, o… often in film school you'll have somebody that you can like say…

24:13Jawad MirYeah

24:13Peter Dudgeon... Your friend like that wants to edit, like, "Will you edit my film?" I liked cutting all of my own films 'cause I just like to be in control of it. So in film school… I really enjoyed the editing process. But also while I was in film school, I was working... I went to film school in Boston, Massachusetts, and, while I was there, I was, I, had a job working in casting, for a lot of the Boston movies that you may know, you know, over the years, like Gone Baby Gone and The Town and The Departed.

24:51Jawad MirOf course.

24:51Peter DudgeonSo we did a lot of the, like, the local, casting for that, which, in some fil… films was a lot of the speaking roles and a lot of the, like, real gritty characters that you see in those movies. So that was something that I was doing while I was in film school, and then I left film school and kind of worked for a couple more years, and then I made the move out here to Los Angeles. And I, and while I enjoyed the casting world, I knew that wasn't…

25:20Jawad MirYour calling

25:20Peter Dudgeon... The career path that I wanted.

25:22Jawad MirYeah.

25:22Peter DudgeonAnd so when I got out here to Los Angeles, I figured, "Well, it, this is a, like, a, kind of a clean slate. I can start over," and I knew that I wanted to get into post-production. So I kind of started from the ground up and worked my way up from a production assistant in post, up to, you know, apprentice, and then second assistant editor, and then first, assistant editor, and then eventually becoming an editor myself. But it's always been something that I really enjoy, the editing process. As I got into it more and worked h… here in Los Angeles and actually in the industry on some of these films, you know, you, at least for me, I was exposed to just, like, how films were made and how important, editing is in that process, and it's, it's become more and more and more important, over the years because so much is done in post-production, to kind of, like, you know, put the cherry on top of the film.

26:28Peter DudgeonSo that's something that has fascinated me and that I l… I love having kind of a front seat to, and it feels like, you know, in some ways, obviously the director is the director of the film and the way that they want the film to be is the way that it's gonna be. But as an editor, I think, you know, y… in some ways you need to have the eye of a director and know how to, how to properly build a story and know how to, like, you know what moments you need to use and what moments aren't maybe worth it and what portions of a scene you can kind of, get rid of and what you need to actually keep. I, so I, it's a unique process. I know that there are other jobs in the film industry that are very close to the director, but editing…

27:23Jawad MirYeah

27:23Peter Dudgeon... Is one of them that feels very akin and close and s… so that's, that's why I enjoy it.

27:31Jawad MirYeah, no, that makes sense. And, you know, when you said y… you did editing, what year was this in school? Was it in early 2000s that you did this, or?

27:40Peter DudgeonYeah. Would've been…

27:42Jawad MirSo that was when y… I'm assuming you were probably on Final Cut 7 or Premiere 3 or something.

27:49Peter DudgeonWell, I was, so in film school they started us on Steenbecks. This was just the program that I was at. The first, like, half of our first year about, I would say, was actually cutting film on Steenbecks, and then we moved to Avid. They had Avid at the school that I was at.

28:11Peter DudgeonSo I used Avid. I mean, I have used Final Cut, and I've used Premiere a little bit, but, Avid is kind of how I learned and what I'm most comfortable on.

28:23Jawad MirYeah, no, Avid is, Avid is great for film. So I used to, I have edited a lot, but now I'm more on directing side. And, started off with Final Cut 7, then they switched to Final Cut 10, which I just couldn't stand. And then…... Switch, switched to Premiere and then DaVinci, and now it's DaVinci and Avid, depending on what I'm working on. But yeah…

28:45Peter DudgeonYeah

28:45Jawad Mir... I mean, those, D… DaVinci I f… and Avid as well, they're, they're more stable. I haven't used Premiere in a long time. I remember it used to have a lot of issues, like crashing issues and stuff, especially when you're working on, like, bigger projects, like with, you know…

29:00Peter DudgeonRight

29:00Jawad Mir... Now everybody's shooting, like, 8K almost or 12K sometimes.

29:03Peter DudgeonRight.

29:04Jawad MirSo you need something that can handle that.

29:07Peter DudgeonYeah. I've never cut a feature on Premiere. I've used Premiere for, like, side gigs.

29:12Jawad MirSmaller, yeah.

29:13Peter DudgeonAnd there's some stuff that it's good for, but…

29:17Jawad MirNo, it's not good for feature

29:18Peter Dudgeon... You know, it, yeah, I just have never used it, and I'm so comfortable on Avid, and I'm faster on Avid. So when I…

29:25Jawad MirYeah

29:25Peter Dudgeon... Go to a different, a different program to cut, I'm kinda like, "" you know, I'm just slower on it, and it doesn't feel as…

29:33Jawad MirOf course

29:33Peter Dudgeon... As natural. So yeah.

29:36Jawad MirYeah. No, Avid is, Avid is a great piece of, tool, as…

29:40Peter DudgeonYeah

29:40Jawad Mir... You know, for what you do. You talked about, you know, you worked with Billy over the several, last several years. What is, what are some of the things that you've learned from him, you know, as an editor, that he's kind of sort of ingrained in you that this is what you should be doing instead of that?

30:00Peter DudgeonSure. Gosh, you know, it's hard to, like, quantify and sum up the years of experience with him in a way that is like that would be a very satisfying answer. I, you know, I, Billy, and I've only worked for Billy and I worked for Paul Rabil on Bumblebee. He cut Bumblebee.

30:31Peter DudgeonI've only worked for a few editors. Billy, Has always, at least, at least with me and some other assistants that I know, it has always been very generous about including his assistants in the process. And by that, I mean, it's not just like, "Process the dailies, get them to me, and then go away and do these tasks when I'm ready for you." It's, "Process the dailies, get them ready for me, but then, come and sit with me and watch this scene that I cut and tell me what you think," or, "Come and sit with me and tell me which parts of this scene that you saw in the dailies when you were processing them, tell me w… which parts you like." Put… you know, he would always say, like, "Go ahead and put a marker on a moment that you think is really good so that I see it." and just by nature of sitting with him over the years and watching how he worked, there's so much that you kind of, like, take in subconsciously.

31:36Peter DudgeonI would say probably the biggest thing, that I took from him is just the performance and story and honesty in those things is, like, A, number one the most important thing. You know, if the performance is great and if it services the story and pushes it forward in a real way, y… you should favor that over, I don't know, whether or not these two shots cut together perfectly continuity-wise.

32:14Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

32:14Peter Dudgeon... Because that's what's gonna matter to an audience. Most of the movie-going public, o… of course people can, people catch things, but most people are not watching a film, at least the first time, going like, "Oh, wait. Hold on." You know, they're emotionally involved, hopefully, in…

32:32Jawad MirYeah

32:32Peter Dudgeon... In what they're watching. So I would say that's the biggest thing that he taught me and that he instilled in me. The other thing I think is just work ethic. And that, you know, I attribute, I, you know, give credit to my parents for that as well, and for other people that I've worked for. But Billy is, his work ethic is insane. You know, he works until he gets it done. He never falls behind camera, behind shooting. He's, you know, always up to camera, always sees, the footage in case the director calls and says, "What did you think about that scene that I shot yesterday or last night?" so understanding that is my job as an editor, from him, it has been really valuable, because it just makes me a better collaborator with the director, whoever I…

33:28Jawad MirYeah

33:28Peter Dudgeon... May be working with. And then I would say, you know, in terms of just, like, technically one of the things or just, like, more nitty-gritty one of the things that I kind of noticed early on, working for him, and especially in films like Paul Greengrass films or Kathryn Bigelow's films, which we've done a couple of, the kind of the art of jump cutting, in those particular films is really, like, was eye-opening for me. You know, because you always, y… you'll look at a scene and go, "Well, okay. This character walks over and turns on the TV, and then they pause for a second, and then they back up, and then they sit down, and then they watch, and then they get upset." And you know, like, maybe your initial approach to a scene like that would be to, like, cover all of those moments, but the fact that you can jump through those moments to get the essence of what that scene means and not have to use everything…

34:32Jawad MirEverything

34:32Peter Dudgeon... That's shot is, was eye-opening for me, and I've used it, throughout my career when it's applicable. So that's…

34:41Jawad MirYeah

34:42Peter Dudgeon... Another thing that I learned from him. But yeah, a… again, it's hard to kind of…

34:45Jawad MirNo, you…

34:45Peter Dudgeon... Thumb up

34:47Jawad MirThis is, this is great. I appreciate the detail that you go into. You know, working on The Lost Bus… ... Not talking about the technical now. I'm more talking about just personal, because it has a lot of moving moments, right?

35:05Peter DudgeonSure.

35:05Jawad MirLike l… were there any moments in the film where you felt connected to, personally and got emotionally involved? I mean, I know it's, it's something that as an editor you kinda need to be kinda like s… you know, away from it, but at the end of the day, we're all human beings.

35:25Peter DudgeonSure.

35:25Jawad MirI think we do get that. Like, what was that moment where you feel connected or something that you, not necessarily, m… maybe related to or not related to, but it just got to you? A scene?

35:35Peter DudgeonYeah. I mean, I would say that there... So I guess I'll start with the more dramatic things, right? I think the final kind of moments in the bus when they're sitting on Roe Road kind of hoping that the fire doesn't reach them and, Kevin and Mary have their conversation where he talks about finally kind of like spills his guts about what happened with his dad. And she kinda spills her guts about the fact that she's kind of essentially led this very sheltered life and never really left Paradise, California, and she wishes she could've, could've left and seen more things. Those things, those, that moment between those two characters I think I really felt connected to and…

36:24Peter Dudgeon... And drawn in by, and it made it, more intense and I guess more fun to cut, because you're emotionally involved and you put yourself in that head space of like what he must be feeling ab… feeling about his dad and trying to choose the best moments for that to really show how heartbreaking it has been for him. So that's, that's one moment that I would say I connected to. The other is a little bit before that when, They arrive on that road, and he tells Mary that he, is gonna go up to the ridge and check and see where the fire is.

37:05Jawad MirYeah.

37:05Peter DudgeonAnd he goes up there, and it's everywhere. It's all around them.

37:10Jawad MirRight.

37:10Peter DudgeonIt's not a big, it's not a big, you know, monologue. It's not a big, huge acting moment. It's actually, you know, to his credit, it's a very subtle, moment where you can kind of see in his eyes and on his face, like the moment where he kind of is not... Can't save them anymore. You know, he realizes…

37:36Jawad MirYeah

37:36Peter Dudgeon... That they're doomed. And that moment is really, powerful and was powerful for me. And then I think, you know, outside of those moments, there's al… there's all of the moments where they're, like r… kind of running for their lives, you know, and you can't... H… I don't think that you can help as an editor, but get wrapped up in that as well.

38:00Jawad MirYeah.

38:00Peter DudgeonYou know, you feel, you feel the panic of it. And I think in some ways that's... It sound, it sounds kind of funny to say this, and I'm, I don't know if other editors do it. I'm sure that they do. But I find myself, because I, because I come from a casting background and I did some acting when I was younger, you know, when I'm watching footage, I kind of like, you know, you kind of emulate the things that the characters are doing while you cut the scene. It's like you're part of the scene, but you're not…

38:30Jawad MirSure

38:30Peter Dudgeon... Scene, you know. And I think that helps. You kinda have to throw yourself into it, feel those things, but also, you know, be an arm's length away so that you can judge it and…

38:41Jawad MirYeah

38:42Peter Dudgeon... Make the best decisions. So yeah.

38:45Jawad MirYeah, no. That makes sense, man. And I, you know, I was... The film has Matthew McConaughey, big name.

38:55Peter DudgeonYeah.

38:55Jawad MirYou know, you would f… you would imagine a film like that would be talked about really well by a lot of people. I mean, it's got great reviews in Rotten Tomatoes, but I still don't think it got the attention that d… it deserved…

39:07Jawad Mir... At least by media or publicity or whatnot.

39:11Peter DudgeonRight.

39:11Jawad MirDo you th… And I was wondering about that, then it kinda hit me, maybe it has something to do with the fact that the fires happened last year. And, you know, it seems pretty fresh still. Like, 'cause I know a couple of people who I've spoken to on the podcast, they lost their homes.

39:29Peter DudgeonRight.

39:29Jawad MirSo, you know, with that in the context of when you were, when you were editing this, I think that had already happened, right? Or it was it in the middle of it?

39:38Peter DudgeonNo. So we... I was editing it. The, th… we were done shooting. It went back to London, 'cause Paul lives over there.

39:53Jawad MirYeah.

39:53Peter DudgeonSo that's where he finishes his films. And Billy picked it up from there. And then, and then right at the new year, the fires happened here. So I was back here in Los Angeles. And in fact, I live in Pasadena. I live on the Pasadena…

40:09Jawad MirOkay

40:09Peter Dudgeon... Altadena line. So the f… there are houses, I don't know, four or five blocks away that are, that are gone.

40:18Jawad MirGone.

40:19Peter DudgeonAnd we're about, I would say we're about eight to 10 blocks from, like, the big burn scar where, like, everything's gone. So I was back here, and it's funny, Billy's house is close to where the Palisades fire happened. So, and Billy was in London, but his family had to evacuate. We had to evacuate, because of the fires. But because of having worked on this film, when the fires started out here in Altadena, Pasadena, we, my wife and I went out to the front of our house and looked up into the hills and we saw the flames, and it had been windy all day long, really strong winds. And we kinda both looked at each other and we were like, "We know how this ends." Like, we know. We know that this is not, this is a bad, like, combination of things, like fire.

41:19Peter DudgeonIt's…

41:19Jawad MirWinds

41:19Peter Dudgeon... Super dry here in California, and the winds are really strong. So we got out and we evacuated well before they told us to evacuate, and I kind of credit the film with that because I was hyper-aware of the fact that, like, this is a, not a great combination of things and it could spread really quickly. And it, and it did, unfortunately. I don't know. It's hard to know whether or not the reception of the film would've been better if there weren't, if there hadn't been fires here in LA. You know, it's so hard. The film industry…

42:01Jawad MirI know, I know

42:02Peter Dudgeon... Is a month over the years.

42:02Jawad MirIt's really unpredictable. Yeah.

42:04Peter DudgeonAnd it's like, you know, because this is Apple and they've done a great job with the film and they have promoted it, but, you know, the landscape of the film industry has changed. You know, movies don't sit in theaters the way that they used to. You know, it used to be that you had a month, sometimes two months to go see a film, and now you've got two weeks, three weeks, and then it's gone. You know? So it's hard to, it's hard to know. I don't know.

42:30Jawad MirIt is hard to know, but I think even to your point, two or three weeks, I w… I remember in the early two, well, in the '90s and even early 2000, I was taking a few film courses. That used to be the time when it used to take six to eight months for the film to come to DVD or VHS.

42:44Peter DudgeonRight.

42:45Jawad MirLike, if the film ca… if the film came out in spring, by, unless it was, like, running, like, a wrong, long run box office…

42:52Peter DudgeonRight

42:52Jawad Mir... Most definitely it'll be out by September, October. If it came out in summer…

42:55Peter DudgeonRight

42:55Jawad Mir... Then around Christmas. But now it's like... And plus, like, you know, you go onto Netflix, you, it's just so much stuff. You don't know what to watch, right?

43:05Peter DudgeonRight. Right.

43:07Jawad MirAnd then, and sometimes you miss out. That's why Lost Bus, I saw the trailer, and then it just kind of went, it disappeared off my radar because there's just so much stuff out there.

43:16Peter DudgeonThere is, yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to, you know, as an outsider, unless you're in, you know, u… unless you are privy to, the way that Netflix measures, you know, who's watching what stuff…

43:29Jawad MirHow they're doing, yeah

43:30Peter Dudgeon... Or Apple measure. You know, it's just y… there's no way to know who's watching it, whereas it used to be like, "Oh, these are the box office returns," and, "Oh, this, we sold this many DVDs or Blu-rays." And now that's not really a thing anymore, so it's harder to, harder to really know how many eyes are on it. But everybody that I talk to that has seen it has loved it, and like you said, it's gotten great reviews. And we're certainly proud of it, I think, kind of across the board. So, you know, it's…

43:57Jawad MirYeah, no, you should be because it's, it's an amazing piece of film. I, you know, and I connected with it more than i… in terms of Fire Realm too because I make a trip to LA, like, every year about four or five times.

44:12Jawad MirAnd meet with different people, and editors…

44:15Peter DudgeonSure

44:16Jawad Mir... DPs and stuff, and I was supposed to come there when the fires happened. And I know so many people who lost their homes, so for me, I, sometimes I wonder, because if I hadn't had that close connection to people who lost their home, would I have felt the same way about the film as I did…

44:33Peter DudgeonRight

44:33Jawad Mir... After watching it, right?

44:34Peter DudgeonYeah.

44:34Jawad MirSo there's that connection that you develop. Even though I had, didn't impact me in any direct way…

44:40Peter DudgeonNo, of course, yeah

44:41Jawad Mir... But it's just that human connection, right?

44:43Peter DudgeonYeah. Yeah.

44:43Jawad MirSo I thought it was... Yeah, it's a remarkable film, man. You know, one last thing I wanted to ask you. If there was one scene that was very challenging to do, for whatever reason, technical, emotional, or anything, what would that be and why?

45:07Jawad MirAnd it doesn't have to be, like, the intense scenes. It can be, you know, the…

45:10Peter DudgeonYeah. Yeah. I…

45:11Jawad Mir... Minute in the pharmacy or...

45:14Peter DudgeonI would say... Well, okay. So I would say that there's... I'll, I'll answer that two ways. The scene that i… immediately pops up in my mind is when, they get onto the skyway. So they've, they've kind of gotten through that traffic jam.

45:35Peter DudgeonThey're on that road where the, power lines start coming down, and then he busts through that fence, and they're on this big, essentially, like a highway. And it's, like, there's flames everywhere, and they're driving through, and they're trying to get out, and then they cut in between those two big bulldozers…

45:53Jawad MirSure

45:53Peter Dudgeon... That are pushing cars. I would say that scene was the most challenging, mostly because there were so many cameras that captured so many things, right? So there's y… y… you're capturing everything that's on the bus. You're having to make sure that you're tracking the story with Kevin and Mary, but that you're also tracking the kids. And then there's all the stuff that's happening on the outside of the bus that's the chaos, that there's, you know, s… just a wealth of that, footage that you have to kind of choose. Like, okay, well, this moment we really need to show because this is especially disturbing or, you know, this is especially scary, but we're gonna not show this other scary moment. Sifting through all of that in that scene I think was challenging. Then the other, I, if you'll indulge me, the other, the other kind of two things that were, I wouldn't say as much of a challenge, but just something that took a lot of work, was that as scripted, the fire chief, when he get, gets to the Chico command post, which is the big place that they fly the helicopter to where…

47:22Peter Dudgeon... Where he's, you know, talking to the PG&E guys and trying to see what's going on up in Paradise. All of that, all of those scenes, and when he, when the fire chief says, "Stop firefighting efforts. Let's focus on saving lives," as scripted, that scene, him saying, "We're not gonna fight the fire anymore," happened much earlier in the script.

47:50Peter DudgeonBut it was clear when we were shooting and we were sending Paul cuts every weekend that was m… maybe gonna be problematic, because then there was gonna be a big chunk of the movie that was just Kevin and Mary and the kids in the bus escaping from this place to this place to this place. So one of the things that we did was we took all of those scenes of the fire chief, and the Cal Fire storyline, as well as Ruby, the bus depot boss.

48:23Jawad MirYeah.

48:24Peter DudgeonAnd we moved those towards the back of the film and, you know, peppered them throughout so that we followed those stories throughout the film so that it felt like we were bouncing back and forth, and we were seeing Kevin and Mary and the kids, and we were there with them knowing what they were experiencing, but then also tracking all the folks on the outside of that fire wondering what was going on. I think that was a... I, again, I wouldn't say challenging, but that was a big thing that we had to work on. And that was, that was really rewarding and fun because you feel like, oh, God, yeah, this is really, this is moving.

49:04Jawad MirAnd I think, and I think you guys were bang on about that because… Because what the people outside of that bus are essentially the audience.

49:14Peter DudgeonRight.

49:15Jawad MirRight? Who are worried about the characters that they're deeply involved with…

49:19Peter DudgeonRight

49:19Jawad Mir... Or the people. And I think to me, the most, the coolest thing was, which was in the script or not, I'm assuming it was, and when the, when Ruby comes up to the parents… ... Right? And then she says, I b… you know, sh… I don't remember the exact dialogue, but more a sense like, "I believe in Kevin," or, "I trust…

49:37Peter DudgeonRight

49:37Jawad Mir... We trust Kevin." even though in the beginning of the film she had a hard time dealing with him, you know?

49:42Peter DudgeonYeah.

49:42Jawad MirAnd, but to have that shift, whether she meant it or not, as a character, didn't matter, but I think that…

49:48Peter DudgeonRight

49:48Jawad Mir... Spoke volumes, in terms of, you know, it was like basically reminding the audience that he's got this.

49:55Peter DudgeonRight. Right. Right.

49:57Jawad MirYeah.

49:57Peter DudgeonThat at the end of the day, he's, he can be counted on.

50:01Jawad MirYeah. I…

50:01Peter DudgeonYeah

50:01Jawad Mir... Thought it was remarkable. You know, the editing…

50:03Peter DudgeonYeah

50:03Jawad Mir... Yeah, the sh… the editing obviously is not just necessarily cutting between, you know, different camera angles, but it's also the flow of the film and where certain scenes are…

50:13Peter DudgeonSure

50:13Jawad Mir... And how they play…

50:14Peter DudgeonYeah

50:14Jawad Mir... In respect to each other. It was really beautifully done, so thank you so much. And I think…

50:17Peter DudgeonThank you

50:18Jawad Mir... You know, it's, the filmmaking is a collaborative effort, but at the end of the day, you know, editing is an important part of it. And that's the last passageway before it, you know, rolls out to the can and to the film theater. So well done.

50:33Peter DudgeonThank you.

50:33Jawad MirAnd please convey my, convey my rewards, r… regards to Paul, to Billy as well. I don't know if he remembers we talked, about Transformer, but just do let him know that it was a great experience.

50:44Peter DudgeonI will. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate you taking the time.

50:48Jawad MirThank you, Peter. And I would love to have you on again, man, maybe for some of your earlier work, like Bumblebee and, Zero Dark Thirty, if you're ever interested, would be honored to have you on.

50:57Peter DudgeonSure. Yeah. I'd love that.

50:59Jawad MirGreat. Anything exciting you're working on right now that you can talk about?

51:03Peter DudgeonI am finishing, a, an indie feature

51:08Jawad MirNice

51:08Peter Dudgeon... Called Patel. It's, it's a adaptation of M… Macbeth, a Shakespeare play. It's set in, like, an Indian-American crime family. It's, you know, South Asian actors. So, directed by Ravi Kapoor. And then, Utkarsh, God, I'm gonna murder his last name, but Ambhu… Ambudkar, Richa Moorjani, Kal Penn, Kunal Nayyar from Big Bang Theory. It's kind of a who's who of these amazing…

51:47Jawad MirSo these actors are, they're not from India. They're more so American Indians, right? Because…

51:51Peter DudgeonYes.

51:52Jawad MirYeah.

51:53Peter DudgeonYeah. Yeah.

51:53Jawad MirYeah.

51:53Peter DudgeonSo that's what I'm working on right now. It's, you know, a… again, an adaptation of Macbeth, but just kind of a dark comedy, you know, piece that we're excited about. So that'll…

52:08Jawad MirWell, I look…

52:08Peter Dudgeon... Probably out next year

52:09Jawad Mir... Looking forward to that. Macbeth is one of my favorite Shakespeare plays, so that's exciting.

52:13Peter DudgeonYeah. Yeah. Yeah.

52:15Jawad MirAmazing, man. Thank you so much, Peter, for your time, buddy. Appreciate it.

52:18Peter DudgeonAll right. Thank you.

52:19Jawad MirTake care, sir.

52:20Peter DudgeonTalk to you.

52:21Jawad MirBye-bye.

52:21Peter DudgeonBye.

52:21Jawad MirBye.

52:21Peter DudgeonBye.