'The Voice of Hind Rajab', DP Juan Sarmiento, Golden Globe Nominated

0:00Jawad MirThe nature of the subject was very heavy, and that could take a toll on you, too. I know that has happened to me a few times, too. It takes a toll on you.

0:08Juan SarmientoAfter one of those, takes, I remember, something happening to me which completely came out of nowhere, but I just started crying. I started crying and I couldn't stop crying for I think the good part of, 30 minutes. I just had to exit the set, and called my wife. I remember calling my wife and just crying at the how… the realization of how completely insane the world is and how we have allowed ourselves as a society and as a humanity to reach a point where we just don't attend a child's call for help.

1:07Jawad MirHey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast, the making of stories. I'm your host, Jawwad Mir. Today, my guest is Juan Sarmiento. He's a cinematographer on the latest Golden Globe nominated as Best Foreign Film, The Voice of Hind Rajab. The Voice of Hind Rajab is based on a true story of a little Palestinian girl who was inside a car that was shot three hundred and fifty-five times by IDF. It is an intense film, full of emotions, and Juan and I get into a deep, conversation about the technicalities about the film, about the emotions of the film, and a whole other stuff. So please do check out my conversation about The Voice of Hind Rajab. Thank you so much for joining. I appreciate it, to talk about The Voice of Hind Rajab, which premiered at TIFF earlier this year and comes out December eighteenth in North America. I think it's already out in some parts of Europe, if I'm not mistaken.

2:00Juan SarmientoYeah, it premiered in Venice, actually, before TIFF.

2:03Jawad MirOkay.

2:05Juan SarmientoAnd, it's out, yeah, in France and, in Belgium. I… In Greece, I think it's releasing today. In Spain. No, it's coming out all over the world. It's unrolling, really like in this December and then in January. It's going everywhere. It's pretty, it's pretty amazing. It's been sold all over the world, which is, which is important, and it's amazing that this film gets to be seen because it's a very important film that just… that it gets watched by as many people as possible.

2:41Jawad MirYeah. No, it is, it is an important film, and it is a great film, considering it, you know, lasts almost an hour and a half in pretty much one space, more or less. And, your part in it as a cinematographer, just to kind of start off with that, how did you come on board on this project, and at what point? I mean, obviously, this happened… I think this happened early last year, the event, right? If my memory's not fading. Something…

3:12Juan SarmientoIt happened early '24, that's correct.

3:14Jawad MirY… yeah. And, so just tell me, walk me through the journey of you getting on board, if it was as simple as a referral or there was a pro… a story behind it.

3:24Juan SarmientoThere is. There is a kind of a story behind it because, actually, Kaouther, and myself, we were connected through a German producer who is, the co-producer on the film that Kaouther was… had been planning for many years, which is a film which we actually just finished shooting a month ago. And, she put us in touch early '24, because they… because Kaouther was looking for a cinematographer, for her film. And, we just had a very brief conversation on the phone and just talked a little bit about the project, and, she had seen a little bit of my work and liked it. And, it was a, just a very easygoing, uncomplicated approach to just like sh… I knew her films, particularly Four Daughters, which is a film which I think is an incredible film.

4:31Juan SarmientoAnd I had,.. When I saw the film in Cannes, I was very touched by it, and I thought, it would be amazing to work with her. And then funnily enough, like literally six months later, I was on the phone with her, for her film. So we talked and she said, "Yeah, okay, let's just start talking about the film and, the idea is to shoot it in '25." so this year. The script is there because she had been writing the script for many years. It's a film called, Mimesis or You Shall Not Make an Image. It was, I think the working title, or it is. And we just started talking every once in a while. And then in June, of last year, she sends me a message where she asks me how my summer is gonna be and whether I have time in August. And for some reason, I thought she was just asking because there was a chance of making sh… maybe shooting the film earlier.

5:38Juan SarmientoBut she said, "No, it has nothing to do with that. I wanna do, a very secretive project before. It's about,.. I can send you something for you to read. I won't say much, but if you're, if you have time, let me know and I will send you something." and I said yes. I had,.. I was kind of in prep for another film that I shot in Colombia. But it wasn't complete… completely clear whether I would be able to actually shoot that film, o… because I'm also the producer on that film, and it wasn't clear whether we had the whole funding. So I said, "Yeah, send it over, whatever it is, you know, I'm very interested in reading it, and, as soon as I know whether we're going with the Colombian film, I will let you know." and as things just happened, she sent me, like, five pages, of description of, The Voice of Hind Rajab, because she hadn't written a script by then. She just had this immense desire of telling Hind's story after she heard, the, her voice, when it went viral in early '24, after…

6:47Juan Sarmiento... After the, killing happened. And, she sent it to me, I read it, and it was very brief. It was just like a description of, you know, it's a day in the Red Crescent, Palestinian Red Crescent.

7:01Jawad MirExcuse me.

7:02Juan SarmientoBless you. It's, everything is, takes place in one location. It starts in the day, it finishes in the night. The, let's say the scope was pretty clear. It begins here, and it, and it ends there. And it was clear that, she wanted to use and have the rights to use the real conversations, or the real recordings of the, of the calls that, took place that day. I read it, the five pages, and I said, "I'm, I'm down, you know, I'm absolutely interested in being part of this film." And as fate, would, like it just, turned out that the film in Colombia had to be pushed because we didn't get a funding that we were hoping to get, so we kind of had to push for, like, three months, and that all of a sudden allowed me to have an open calendar, to go to shoot the film. So it was kind of like a coincidence that I ended up shooting or that she ended up making this film because she and her producer, Nadeem, they put up this film incredibly fast.

8:14Juan SarmientoI mean, in June she wrote me this message, and I think a month and a half later I had a script. And I was in Colombia, actually, just taking some time off, and I read the script when I was in Colombia, and it was incredibly strong. It was very emotional and very powerful. And, from August on, then Nadeem kind of managed to put the film together with two other producers, James Wilson and Odessa Ray, in a matter of no time. And we shot the film in November of last year. So yeah, a year ago we finished shooting the film. I was in Tunisia three weeks, and we shot the film in three weeks. Yeah.

9:01Jawad MirYeah. I was gonna guess it's probably 21, 22 days of shoot just because of the location and access that you guys had. Yeah, no, it's, thank you for sharing that. It's, you know, it is a very moving film and I, you know, I'm gonna talk about, I'm gonna get into the actual, the cinematics of it. I, and this is just my personal thing. So I'm more of a crazy person, personal preference when I watch a film, where depth of field is not too much there. Like, you know, it's not completely out of focus. And I know sometimes that's important de… de… depending on the story that you're try… telling. I'm more of a fan of, like, a, the wider frames. I like to see the environment and all that. I, when I started watching it, just, yesterday, I wasn't really hooked with from that standpoint, the visuals, but it grew on me. And I think what really became intense was the fact that the camera more or less pretty much throughout the time was handheld.

10:05Jawad MirAnd especially when the calls in the very beginning when the phone call starts, and it's just the two of them, how the camera is kind of… I think there was a good, a shot that was a good few minutes long without, you know, any cuts, kind of moving back and forth while holding the performances that they were performing, and I thought that was remarkable. So it did grew on me. And then the arc of the story was very interesting because, you know, you don't necessarily have an antagonist in this film, but the guy who was calling the shots, the green light, you can kind of argue that there was a point that he was, and then he had a little bit of shift, too. But yeah, no, I thoroughly enjoyed it and, not from a standpoint of story, but a… as an entertain… entertainment. And especially for me, what stood out were the phone that came into the frame towards the end and how you guys timed everything to the spot on seconds, right? With the hands on the head and the shirts and everything. I thought that was phenomenal.

11:02Juan SarmientoYeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that's an incredible shot. I mean, it's, it's that particular sh… shot is something that Kaouther actually described in the script. It's something that she very much, really wanted to have. And we spoke a lot about, like, very shallow depth of field, because, I understand your point in regards to, I mean, some people like more depth of field, some people like…

11:31Jawad MirYeah

11:31Juan Sarmiento... Less.

11:32Jawad MirIt's personal preference.

11:33Juan SarmientoI have to say, personally, this changes, in my… This has changed in the course of my, of my life. You know, sometimes I think that in the last few years, I shot a lot of anamorphic and this film is not anamorphic, but it's something that, Kaouther really likes. She likes, to have the feeling that the face is like the landscape and everything else is like not really... Also because this film particularly, I have to say, the first day of shooting… when we shot the film chronologically…

12:12Juan SarmientoAnd, we did something in that, in those, in that very first day, which we had planned the whole shoot. We had planned the whole shot list in a way. We had shot listed the film from beginning to end, and had a very clear idea of, when each character is going to move from what position to another position, what the camera's going to do in, i… in those moments. So it was a very clear plan as to how to approach it. But of course, when we started shooting the film, as it happened, because, it was the first time... This is a film where the actors knew the script, but they had never heard, the voice of Hind, before. Meaning, they had heard it online on the social media and stuff…

13:05Jawad MirSure

13:05Juan Sarmiento... But they hadn't heard the calls, on their earpiece because there was, in the, i… in that sense, not really many rehearsals. It was just, I think, conversations that Kaouther had with them. So when that actually started happening on the first day, we discovered the film, you know, and the style of the film and the, and the way that we wanted to approach it. And we ended up shooting, reshooting the first day completely. Like,... And in the end, both the first, the first go at it and the second go at it are mixed in the, in the actual film. But there is something that we did in the beginning, which is, a shot which is something which nobody really, I think, consciously notices, but there is, there is this thing called a cine fade, which is a filter where… which allows you to change the depth of field in the shot without changing the exposure.

14:08Juan SarmientoSo in that very first call with Layan, with the, cousin of Hind, we actually start with a very, wide depth of field. We see, like, the three layers of the, of the shot.

14:25Jawad MirYeah.

14:25Juan SarmientoAnd when he starts speaking to the girl and when she actually gets, killed, the shot becomes completely subjective, and it goes to Omar, and everything else goes out of focus.

14:39Jawad MirGoes with, yeah. Yeah.

14:43Juan SarmientoAnd that is something which kind of very clearly and very, v… very quickly became, like, our guiding light in the sense that we... Kaouther also really loves long lenses, I have to say. You know, the longer it became, the longer the lens, the more she just reacts to it and feels it because she has, she has this, observational thing about documentary, where she comes from or also where I come from because my... I did many documentaries in the last,... I finished… I hadn't shot a, or I haven't shot a documentary since, like, six or seven years. But before that, I shot a few. So I also come from that, from that school of documentary where it's like we ended up shooting the film because, I have read, in pieces, you know, about the film that people call this film like a reenactment film, but that's not really true.

15:44Juan SarmientoYou know, the film, the actors weren't reenacting anything. They were…

15:48Jawad MirYeah

15:49Juan Sarmiento... They were literally there while this was taking place, and we were... It was happening for all of us. I also had the, had the audio and earpiece so that I also heard the voice, of Hind, and I also, heard the phone calls. And it wasn't something... We approached it as a documentary, a planned documentary, but it, we were very much in the moment. And, just to sum it up in this regard is, like, the human faces and the emotion of the human face very quickly became for us, like the guiding light. And, a… and in a piece which is just one location, there's something which I'm very much, a little bit allergic to, which is films that try to, find crazy, you know, quote, unquote, "crazy shots" without necessarily the story calling for crazy shots.

16:50Jawad MirYeah.

16:50Juan SarmientoYou know?

16:51Jawad MirYeah.

16:52Juan SarmientoAnd this is a film which doesn't call at all for any kind of aesthetically pleasing or experimental or, an approach to the cinematography and to the visual storytelling that takes anything away from the actual story because the story in itself is incredibly powerful. And the, and the performers and the actors, they make the film, and Hind's voice makes the film. So it was something which for us was always very clear that,... And it's also just because of how I work and how I really connect to cinema is that flashy cinematography, I just kind of run away from. So, I know that this is a film or, that is strong enough without it having to have, like too crazy visual ideas.

17:54Juan SarmientoWhich of course, I think we, there are many visual ideas in there without a doubt. But they're not supposed to call attention to themselves but just be part of the, serve the storytelling and the story that, is Hind's story, Hind's voice.

18:10Jawad MirYeah, and I, and I think to your point, and I completely get the fact that the story is king. Like, that's something that I treat all the time as well. And sometimes, you know, you do... You can get carried away in that moment of, oh, this shot or that shot. But I also think sometimes, like I was just watching, I don't know if you've seen the new Frankenstein with Gui… Guillermo del Toro, the one with

18:32Juan SarmientoI haven't seen it yet, no

18:33Jawad Mir... Yeah. I was just talking to the DP of that film yesterday, and, I haven't really seen a lot of Guillermo's film other than Hellboy, Pacific Rim, and the one that I saw t… two days ago, Frankenstein. And the visuals of that are like every frame is like a painting, right? It's breathtaking. But the story was powerful. The dialogue was incredible. So it went hand-in-hand. Now, obviously, you know, there are films which are visually impeccably amazing, but if the story is not there, you may remember the shot, but you will never remember the film.

19:10Juan SarmientoAbsolutely.

19:11Jawad MirYeah.

19:11Juan SarmientoAnd I also think, and I also think to the point, for example, of, you know, Guillermo and Dan, those films, they call for that, you know? They…

19:22Jawad MirExactly

19:23Juan Sarmiento... They ask for it. And, the n… the next film, Kaouther's next film, which we shot, which we finished shooting a month ago, is a completely different film and it's an in… it's a much more visual film in that regard. The visuals and the, and le… let's say the cinematography is something which takes more of a protagon…

19:51Jawad MirArtistic approach. Okay

19:52Juan Sarmiento... A protagonism because it, because it is, the story calls for it because it's a film about cinema, because it's a film about…

19:59Jawad MirThere you go

19:59Juan Sarmiento... Those sub… So it, so it asks for it. But this film, it would've been a disservice to make…

20:07Jawad MirIt would've been

20:07Juan Sarmiento... This film about the images. It wouldn't be the film it is, and it wouldn't, in my opinion, be a good film. And I think the f… the film is so incredibly powerful because no one, and I sincerely hope, you know, that it is the case, people are emotionally involved, and I think that is like the power of this approach that we had, which where the cinematography or the camera or, you know, myself as a human being also, I was there with them and I connected to them through my energy as a human being and as a camera operator and as a cinematographer emotionally. And I, and that allowed me to, or allows the film to get so close to these characters, and hence in the end allows the viewer to just be completely immersed in the emotion, which is Hind's story, you know?

21:09Juan SarmientoSo, yeah, i… i… in li… for example, when we, when we were planning the film, when we were thinking about how to approach the film, we spoke about many different things. We spoke about having like a kind of like the zone of interest approach, like let's just plant 10 cameras all over the set, fixed, and just let it play and then after edit it, and Kaouther just picks what she needs and then we erase the cameras. But that was just like this brainstorming idea of quickly it became clear, A, we don't have the budget to have 10 cameras.

21:52Jawad MirI was gonna say

21:53Juan SarmientoWe don't have the budget to have 10 focus pullers, 10, you know. And then we said, "Okay, how about we shoot with three cameras?" same thing. I hate... I personally don't like to shoot with more than one camera. I never do. And Kaouther, her film, Four Daughters, she shot with two cameras. And she was thinking of shooting Hind. Initially, she told me, "How about if we shoot with two cameras?" And I said, "Well, I mean, I'm open to everything, but it's not something that I would do," just because all of a sudden you start compromising. You know, both cameras c… have to compromise in a way. And, I just like to have this immediate unbothered, possibility to just be with the actors. And since the whole film, after, you know, pondering of 10 cameras, three cameras, at some point I said, "Well, how about if you just shoot just like one camera and just do it handheld?"

22:56Juan SarmientoYou know, like a very close, in the moment approach. So the film, I didn't even have sticks in my, in my gear list, you know? Like, there wasn't, there weren't any tripods available. If we had, if we had wanted to shoot a shot with a tripod, we would've have to order a tripod because we didn't even have tripods on set, you know? So, and this was like, a… a… and for the actors it was also this thing where they, from the very beginning they understood that w… we were just together in it, and that I was just there where whatever they felt, whatever they wanted to do, and wherever the emotion led them, I was gonna be there with them. Sometimes in a more composed, clear way, sometimes in a more dirty, in the moment, rough a… kind of a approach.

23:58Juan SarmientoBut I was always with them, so they could always just do and feel and act whatever they wanted without having to think about the moment being lost. And in that sense, you know, we… The shoot was very short. You know, it wasn't, it was, it was three weeks, but it was around, like, 15 days, you know?

24:22Juan SarmientoSo it was,.. We didn't shoot many takes, but we shot very long takes because emotionally it was so draining…

24:31Jawad MirYeah

24:31Juan Sarmiento... For everyone.

24:32Jawad MirYeah.

24:33Juan SarmientoAnd it became, you know, Kaouther speaks about, which is so, which is so on point. She speaks about the shoot being like a mourning. It became a mourning, collective mourning process about, on Hind. And emotionally it really did feel like exactly like that. You know? It was, I had never been part of a film that was so emotionally complex to be a part of, and I think that's what, you know, kind of... I will, I will, I really do feel that it's, it's very difficult for me to ever do a film like this ever again, just because there aren't many films like this, period.

25:21Jawad MirYeah. No, I agree, and I, you know, one, part of the film that I, that I think was, obviously it's because it's based on a true story, it happened like that, but nevertheless, from a standpoint of storytelling, you know, there was chaos in the beginning, right? With people getting, the, I'm horrible with character names and actor names, so the protagonist, how he got so emotionally involved very quickly.

25:46Juan SarmientoOmar, yes.

25:47Jawad MirAnd then, and then the girl with the white hijab, she came in, and she was calm, and then she got emotionally involved, right? But I think what I loved about the most, and again, I know this is a true story, I'm just speaking on a, in terms of the film. The woman that comes at the end, you know, the one, and that's, like, the calm heads prevail. Like, there was a chaos going on, and how she just ki… I think for me, she was the star of the film. Because in all that chaos and madness, she was the one that kinda held her nerve. She was deeply hurt too. You could see in her face.

26:27Juan SarmientoOf course.

26:27Jawad MirBut she was, she was just, she had, somebody had to calm things down because how do you handle a situation, right? So, for me that she was, I mean, nothing against anybody else. You know, the performances are phenomenal. The characters were great, but she kind of, and I think that's what we need now in this world is just, you know, there's a lot of emotion, which I completely understand, but we also need calm heads to kind of, you know, just figure things out and navigate our way through it.

26:55Juan SarmientoI mean, the thing is that as you know, as you said in the beginning, of what you just said is, like, it, this is based on real people. So every single person, all of, all four of them, they are h… they are existing human beings, you know?

27:12Jawad MirExactly.

27:12Juan SarmientoAnd each of the actors, they had extensive conversations with each of their real counterpart.

27:21Jawad MirPeople. Yeah.

27:22Juan SarmientoFor the, for the prod… before the production of the film. And Nisreen is her name. Her job in the Red Crescent is exactly that. You know, she's the psychologist. She's the, she's the one who knows and, as you can see in the, in the end with the, with the cellphone shot, she's also the old… the oldest one, and she has the most experience, which is not to say that makes her, more calm, but it's just she is effectively the one who has a different approach also from her career and for, or for the person or the human being she is for the film. So for Clara, the actor, she knew this very well. You know? And Clara is someone who is also very connected in the process of, because all of them, the, I don't know the real characters. I haven't met them.

28:23Juan SarmientoThey just actually met last week in Doha for the first time. The actors met the real, the real, people, and, but Clara, for example, she is a little bit like Nisreen in that regard, as a person. So her approach to the character was also so incredibly connected to who she, you know, who the character is, but also who she is as a person. So this, th… th… this, there is, there is, elements there which Kaouther used for the script, that are real, you know, about, like, the meditation and reading the Quran when, Rana reads the Quran with Hind. So those things actually, you know, they happened. But it, in this whole, in this whole absolute chaos of emotional chaos and, overwhelm… overwhelming atmosphere, it is Nisreen who actually holds her grounds and says, like, "Okay, this is the situation we're in.

29:30Juan SarmientoLet's just go through it as best as we can."

29:34Jawad MirYeah.

29:34Juan SarmientoSo yeah, I totally know what you mean, and I think that some of the moments where w… with her, with the meditation and, towards the end, they're incredibly powerful, evocative moments because they allow also it, just seeing it as a film, they allow us as a viewer to generate a connection to Hind's memory and to Hind's voice in a completely different way than it happens when Omar or Rana are talking to her.

30:07Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, I, listen, man. I, it's, it's a, it's a great piece of cinema achievement, not necessarily from the storytelling aspect, but to be able to mix up real voices, real stuff with… You know, I don't wanna call it reenactment, but obviously performances, right? So it's…

30:27Juan SarmientoYeah, performances. Yeah

30:29Jawad Mir... A… and it was just executed so effectively, that, you know, like I said, like you're… you're with… with… you're with them, you're with the characters. And yeah, no, bravo. You know, I… I… I really hope the film does really well, in terms of not necessarily box office, but in terms of, you know, critics and awards and all that stuff, and recognition that it deserves, and people coming to understand the story. I just wanna ask you one last thing, buddy, that, you know, on a set, and you've been on many sets, there's always disagreements, right? Like between the cinematographer or the director, or the director and production designer, whatever that is. For you to be on that set for 21 days, were there any moments where you had a... I… I… I don't like to use the word argument, just like professional disagreements. And also the… the nature of the subject was very heavy, and that could take a toll on you, too.

31:32Jawad MirI know that has happened to me a few times, too. It takes a toll on you. But how do you hand… like if you can, if you, if you're comfortable talking about any of that story that may have occurred on the set…

31:42Juan SarmientoAbsolutely

31:42Jawad Mir... And how do you sort of ha… handle that?

31:45Juan SarmientoWell, I will start with the second part of your question. Emotionally, as I said before, it was the most difficult film that I've ever done, and at some point in the f… in… in the first half of the shoot, there was a moment where, I actually, after a very long take, because we sh… we shot takes which were often between, like, 20 to 30 minutes continuously, without stopping. After one of those, takes, w… in the most intense parts of the conversation between Rana, Omar, and Hind, when Kaouther called cut, Omar, Motaz was in a, in a deep state of emotional, performance, which became real just because oftentimes when they were performing, the emotion wasn't performed anymore. It became absolutely real. And at some point I remember, something happening to me which completely came out of nowhere, but I just started crying.

32:53Juan SarmientoI started crying, and I couldn't stop crying for I think the good part of, 30 minutes. I just had to exit the set, and called my wife. I remember calling my wife and just crying at the how, the realization of how completely insane the world is, and how we have allowed ourselves as a society and as a humanity to reach a point where we just don't attend a child's call for help, and how we kind of use our cell phones to create a barrier between ourselves and the realities of hu… of other human beings, and the lack of empathy. And this is something which accompanied me throughout the whole shoot, which made it, complex, emotionally very taxing, and difficult.

34:00Juan SarmientoBut I wasn't alone. We were all together. And it sounds, it sounds like very big, but it really felt like that. You know, we were carrying each other through this process, and Kaouther was at the head of the whole thing, leading us, because for the actors it was even more complicated than it was for me, because they have no other option than to…

34:26Jawad MirOf course

34:27Juan Sarmiento... Than to really tap into that emotion. And since they are also Palestinian, and it is the story of their people, it was impossible for them to separate the real emotions from the performed emotions.

34:43Jawad MirYeah.

34:44Juan SarmientoSo in that regard, it became... I mean, I am incredibly grateful to be able to be part of this film, to be honest. I, what you were saying before, for me, the film is, from a humanistic point of view, is one of the biggest gifts that I've ever experienced to be part of it. But also cinematically speaking, I do think that this film does something which, I have never seen before. The way it mixes reality and fiction is something which, has been a… kind of approached in different ways. Even Kaouther herse… herself has done it. The Act of Killing, for example, it's a film which is incredible in the way that it allows or makes the real people act something. But it's, but those are more like films which use the real people. I think the… the… the… the genius of Kaouther was to actually use or get actors to allow them to be part of this, and how this, how she blends these two things for me is something which I am completely in awe of, you know?

35:56Juan SarmientoAnd of course, being part of the film is even crazier, and it's, and it's kind of weird that I say that because I'm… I'm… I'm… I'm the DP of the film, but it's, for me, it's a major cinematic achievement as well. And in regard to the differences or, disagreements, there is something pretty amazing about Kaouther, I have to say, and this is really f… the first time that I have experienced this, is that… She hates conflict. I mean, she really, she doesn't fight. She doesn't... She gets what she wants, but she never does it in a way where it becomes argumentative or complicated. And I was, and I also am someone as a DP who when I become part of a project, I, if I believe, and I o… I try only to make films which where I strongly believe in the vision of a director, I just, I'm willing to bend over backwards in order to make the vision of the director as best as it can be.

37:12Juan SarmientoHaving said that, of course, I have a strong v… creative approach, and of course, I have ideas. But the beautiful thing that happened with Kaouther, which is something that continued into the film we shot after this one, is that it became... Because she's also a very visual person and she has a lot of ideas, and it became like this very healthy creative competition between the both of us, where she was challenging me, and I was challenging her. And she said, "How about we do this?" And I hear the idea and I say, "I like the idea. How about if on top of that we do this, and this?" A… and we were trying to l… lift ourselves higher together. All of this without ever one single time having a negative, discussion, argument, problem, conflict.

38:13Juan SarmientoI mean, we've shot two films now, and this is, I mean, I say this with the biggest, amount of, like, pride. It's incredible that we have never, not even come close to having a… an argument.

38:28Jawad MirKnock on wood.

38:29Juan SarmientoYeah. Literally, knock on wood. It's... But it's, but it's also so, it feels so good, you know, to make films…

38:39Jawad MirYes

38:39Juan Sarmiento... That are, on top of that, are so powerful, and doing them in a way where you don't... Because, you know, because m… my take on that is that it's like when I work with a gaffer, you know, or my, or my focus puller. I… at some point, I came to the realization when I was younger, I was very, I was very, like, jealous of or envious of my own ideas. I had the feeling that the idea had to come from me.

39:09Juan Sarmiento... And that it became like this ego-driven thing.

39:11Jawad MirOh, yeah. We've all been through that, man. Don't worry.

39:14Juan SarmientoBut at some point, I realized every idea that comes to me, doesn't matter who brings it to me, if it's a good idea, in the end, people see the cinematography of the film. And if I'm the cinematographer, people think that it was my idea. And I see it the same way with Kaouther because she's the director. So every idea that I give to her, it's only of help for her film. And she's someone who also, she's not the only person I work with who understands this because I've, I'm lucky enough to work with directors who also understand this very well, but they know it's their film. And if the idea that I put on the table, if they like it, then of course they go with it. And if they want something else, then at some point, I'm not gonna fight for an idea, if, the director is completely against it. I fight…

40:08Jawad MirYeah

40:08Juan Sarmiento... Or I defend my idea as m… hard as I can and as much as I can if there is, like, a good, a nice ping pong going on between the director and myself. But with Kaouther, it is the, it is that way of working, you know. She just, we just don't fight, you know. It's

40:26Jawad MirYeah

40:26Juan Sarmiento... She has a, she has an idea, she presents it, and I present it to her, and it feels like this, there's no filter, you know. I don't have to filter myself, and she doesn't have to filter her… herself at all in the communication we have.

40:41Jawad MirYeah. It becomes a shorthand, right? Like, when you work together and then you... And then it's all about, you know, films is all about collaboration and relationships. Literally, that's all it is about. Everything else goes out the window. I mean, nobody cares about all the other technical and fancy stuff, which is important if the relationships and, you know, collaboration is not there. And I'm a, I'm a, I think I was at that boat, on the, on the boat that you were maybe, like, 12, 15 years ago, and that shifted in me about 12, 15 years ago. Maybe by age, you know, you kinda s… become more self-realization comes in, is that you have to have people with you who are better than you in terms…

41:21Juan SarmientoOf course

41:21Jawad Mir... Of the work that they do, right? Because that's…

41:23Juan SarmientoOf course

41:23Jawad Mir... Again, it's a team effort. You're making a film. That's the product, and everybody has to work amazingly well on it. And I, and I learned that quite a bit from listening to Steven Spielberg, who has talked about this very openly, that how he would take advice from assistant directors and, you know, make it a collaborative effort. Everybody needs to come on. And it does produce wonders. I've seen that with myself. Like, you know, when you have the best of the best, and you connect with them, you gel with them, there's that understanding. Magic happens. That's movie magic for me. You know, just all that stuff.

41:57Juan SarmientoIt is. It is. And I think that's what... Because, you know, it's th… this concept of, films, even writer-director films, you know, as Kaouther's films are, of them being only, like, made by a single person and everything works just the way they want it to work, that's not, that's not true, you know. It's just not how it is. And the, and good…

42:27Jawad MirYeah

42:27Juan Sarmiento... Directors, they know that. And of course, as you say, you know, it's the same with… It's the same with them. They, of course it's better to have someone as a DP who, you know, Kaouther is so, Kaouther is so good visually that, I sometimes joke with her and I tell her like, "I wouldn't be surprised if at some point you just DP'd yourself, you know? Just be..." And she says, "No, but I can't do it, you know? I'd rather have you around because it's…

42:53Jawad MirYeah

42:54Juan Sarmiento... You just do it better. You just make my ideas better, you know?"

42:57Jawad MirOf course. That's all it's about, man. That's all it's about.

43:00Juan SarmientoAnd for me, for me to hear that is like, "Of course, that's what I'm here to do, you know? Serve your vision and be there with you and all the way." And, there is no, there is not a single no, you know? The AD she works with and the AD we work with, we never say no. It's like, I would like to do... Kaouther comes after lunch, e… every single day after lunch, she's by herself, and then she comes back and she says, "Okay, I was thinking I want to do this and this and this." and the answer is always, "All right. Let's do it. Let's go. Let's just, whatever you want. We'll find a way, you know? And if we can't, then we find a better way to do what you wanted, you know?"

43:42Jawad MirYeah. Exactly. That's the motivation.

43:44Juan SarmientoIt is that. It is that. A… a… and I think that her films are living proof that approach to filmmaking is just full of miracles, you know?

43:54Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. I agree, man. Listen, congratulations on a great film, a great piece of work. Yeah, I m… above everything, it's a powerful story, that's putting technicalities on the side, and I hope that people get to see it, all over the world, so looking forward to it doing well, and hopefully, I think the Academy Awards are announced, well, the shortlist comes out this month, in a few d… in next week or something, and then…

44:22Juan SarmientoThe short, the shortlist comes out on s… the 16th, yeah. Yeah.

44:25Jawad MirYeah, the 16th, and then after that, obviously, I think February they announce it, so, you know, best of luck.

44:31Juan SarmientoThank you. Thank you, yeah. Fingers crossed. Thank you so much.