'The Rock' & 'Se7en', Editor, Richard Francis-Bruce

0:05Jawad MirHow's everything, down in Sydney?

0:07Richard Francis-BruceIt's great. We're starting to get some cooler weather now, which is good. You know, just getting into... We've had some extremely hot weather. Where are you exactly?

0:17Jawad MirI'm in, Toronto, Canada. I…

0:19Richard Francis-BruceOh, okay

0:20Jawad Mir... Winter is kind of, fading away.

0:23Richard Francis-BruceI bet it is.

0:23Jawad MirI was actually supposed, I was supposed to come to, Australia for a tour for one of my films and, my schedule didn't allow me to, but they were doing a whole bunch of screenings there, I think in Melbourne and Sydney and Canberra.

0:37Richard Francis-BruceYes, I've spent a winter in, Toronto. I know what I know what it's like.

0:44Jawad MirYeah, when was this?

0:47Richard Francis-BruceWhen was it? Oof. Well, 10 years ago maybe. It was, well, I did a film called, Repo Men…

0:59Jawad MirGreat movie

0:59Richard Francis-Bruce... With Jude Law and Forest Whitaker. That was shot in Toronto…

1:03Jawad MirYeah

1:03Richard Francis-Bruce... In the middle of winter.

1:04Jawad MirYes

1:04Richard Francis-BruceOut… exteriors. Crazy.

1:10Jawad MirYeah, it's, it's, it had… we have the best of, winter and the best of summer. We… it gets really hot in summer and, really cold in winter, but, Australia's weather is completely different, so, you're in a good place.

1:22Richard Francis-BruceYeah, we don't have the s… in Sydney anyway, we don't have snow. Doesn't get that cold.

1:28Jawad MirNo. I was in Sydney just before COVID. I think it was December, November 2019. I was all over Australia. Loved Australia. I mean, it was very similar to Canada in terms of architect and all that.

1:42Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

1:42Jawad MirJust, but just loved the weather and, just the feel of it. It was a tad bit different.

1:49Richard Francis-BruceWell, I spent over 30 years in Los Angeles, and I'm glad I don't live there anymore.

1:56Jawad MirWell…

1:56Richard Francis-BruceIt would be…

1:57Jawad Mir... Speaking of Lo… speaking of Los Angeles, Richard, you know, I came across... I have known of your work for a while, but I did not know the amount of amazing films, and directors that you have worked with and worked on. You know, you have Shawshank Redemption, you have Green Mile, Seven, The Rock. And big directors, you know, F… Frank Darab… Darabont, Wolfgang Petersen with Air Force One, and even Chris Columbus with Harry Potter.

2:29Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

2:30Jawad MirAnd, that's, that's such a different palate… palette of work. And diff… every director is just so different from one another, right? Especially Michael Bay and David Fincher are just…... Completely in the complete different worlds.

2:47Richard Francis-BruceDon't get me started. Yeah. Ooh. Yeah.

2:50Jawad MirSo how, I guess my first question is how do you, how do you work in, with different directors as an editor and, you know, working at the pace of their film and their style and their approach? How do you gear?

3:06Richard Francis-BruceWell, I do pride myself on, a… as you just mentioned with running through some of my films, that I don't like to get pigeonholed. A lot of editors get pigeonholed as, like…

3:21Jawad MirYeah

3:21Richard Francis-Bruce... Action editors, you know, or, drama editors. I like to diversify and, but the way I approach it is still the same really. I mean, nowadays we're always cutting, you know, as they're shooting. So you're assembling, not assembling, you're cutting the scene so it w… works and you, and so that you know you have everything you need. And I…

3:50Richard Francis-Bruce... I came up through television where speed was essential, especially working on current affairs programs where you have to cut and get it done in an afternoon and it goes to air that night. There's no mucking about. You do… You learn to be decisive. And I pride myself on trying to keep up to camera. I don't know if you know that term, which mean… literally you are…

4:17Jawad MirYeah

4:17Richard Francis-Bruce... Cutting as fast as they're shooting it. In other words, you cut in a day what they film in a day.

4:22Jawad MirRight.

4:23Richard Francis-BruceAnd a lot of times it has been very advantageous because a director may real… did not realize that he has missed an angle, he hasn't got a close-up or something, and I can say, "Hey, I didn't get this shot. I need it to make this scene work." It happened on The Green Mile actually, which, was not a very comfortable phone call to make to the, to the producer and say, "Look, I'm actually missing a shot here," and they've left the lo… location, and they had to go back to the location and pick up the shot. He really said, "Can't you make it work without it?" And I said, "It doesn't really work without this shot, you know? It's, it just doesn't work." So, I pride myself in that. And, you know, cutting the scenes as they come in, and you can only cut them for what, so they play in their isolation. It's not until you get…

5:15Jawad MirRight

5:15Richard Francis-Bruce... The scenes around it and you sit down with the director at the end of shooting, when, you start to re… you start to, you know, adapt or accommodate the director's style. Like, a lot of them, some of them don't wanna be in the cutting room when you're making all those changes and having to sit around and watch you do it. They will go through a reel, take notes, and they say, "See you tomorrow. When do you think you'll have all those notes done?" And I say, "Well, after lunch," and they come in. I mean, Frank was very much like that, Frank Darabont. And

5:50Jawad MirYeah.

5:51Richard Francis-BruceBut a, but some directors, like Wolfgang Petersen, used to like being there, telling stories or cracking jokes while I'm working, doing the changes. He, some directors can't stand… The minutiae of editing, you know? It's a lot faster…

6:06Jawad MirYeah

6:07Richard Francis-Bruce... Now with Avid. But when it used to be film, it was literally like sticking stuff together with tape and splices and it could be a very…

6:17Jawad MirYeah

6:17Richard Francis-Bruce... Slow, laborious process. So

6:19Jawad MirYeah

6:20Richard Francis-Bruce... Yeah, I try to remember that it's not my film. I'm here to facilitate the director and give him my ideas, but you know, at the end of the day, it's his film. So you've gotta be…

6:35Jawad MirRight

6:35Richard Francis-Bruce... You've gotta be sensitive to that and not be too proud or too, don't…

6:42Jawad MirYeah

6:42Richard Francis-Bruce... Take over. Make the director… I always like to make the director feel comfortable in the cutting room because some of them have had horrific experiences where they've worked with someone who's pretty overbearing, and I don't think that doesn't make a good environment, doesn't make a good movie. So that's how I, that's how I work.

7:01Jawad MirYeah. No, that's, it's interesting you mentioned, you know, film versus Avid. I mean, I haven't, I never worked on Moviola, but I did, do flatbed editing on 16 millimeter, you know, about, oh, 20 years ago when digital was just kicking in. And comparing that to digital now, obviously Avid, you being old school, which one, aside from the convenience, which one did, do you feel that you enjoy the most or you enjoy it because, you know, now it's all Avid more or less?

7:36Richard Francis-BruceI enjoyed them both in their own times. You know, like I was brought up through television, and we used Steenbecks, you know, instead of, what's the, what's the American system, flatbed? EM. We used…

7:53Jawad MirOkay

7:53Richard Francis-Bruce... The German machine called a Steenbeck, which was very common in New York, but not in LA. They used Kems.

8:00Jawad MirRight.

8:00Richard Francis-BruceBut when I was in Australia, we all used Steenbecks, especially in television. And th… I would work with a eight-plate machine, which was two picture heads and two sound heads. So it was very much set up the same way that an Avid was, where you had a source machine, a source screen, and sound, and the, what you're building on one other screen. So, I worked that way and not knowing. And it was one day I had an a… an ex-assistant of mine who was then working for Avid, this was before I got into it, came and said to me, "I think you would like Avid 'cause it's very similar to the way you work."

8:38Jawad MirYeah.

8:38Richard Francis-BruceAnd I didn't know whether to go with Avid or Lightworks. Those were the two machi… two, systems at the time. And I was working on Seven. Seven was the last film I cut on film.

8:51Jawad MirYeah.

8:51Richard Francis-BruceAnd, David Fincher had worked in commercials with Avid, and he actually wanted to work, wanted to use an Avid on Seven, but the budget wouldn't allow it. And I didn't know it, and, I didn't know the system. And I said to him, "What should I do, Avid or Li… Lightworks?" He said, "Go with Avid. That's gonna be the industry standard." I mean, he was a smart guy at, even at 32. He knew, he knew... He was impressive.

9:22Jawad MirYeah, I mean, now Avid is used by pretty much everyone in the industry, right? And I mean, there are some films that use Premiere, but its percentage of that is extremely small compared to Avid…

9:33Richard Francis-BruceYeah, I

9:33Jawad Mir... And TV

9:34Richard Francis-Bruce... Yeah, I think it's good that,.. I think also what helps is that Avid and, Pro Tools are owned by the same company now.

9:43Jawad MirYeah.

9:43Richard Francis-BruceSo they're pretty much…

9:45Jawad MirPretty much

9:45Richard Francis-Bruce... They can take the A… they can take our files from the, Avid and put them into the Pro Tools and it should, it's all compatible.

9:54Jawad MirYeah.

9:54Richard Francis-BruceSo that makes life easier.

9:56Jawad MirYeah, no, for sure, Richard. And tell me your story on how you got into doing what you're doing, editing films and, you know, even TV.

10:06Richard Francis-BruceWell, kind of by mistake actually. I wanted to be, I wanted to be a cameraman.

10:13Jawad MirOkay.

10:13Richard Francis-BruceAnd in maybe, and in Australia in the late '60s, there really wasn't a film industry. There was television or there was…

10:26Jawad MirSure

10:26Richard Francis-Bruce... News, newsreels. And, my uncle, ran a film production, a film processing lab behind the ABC. That's the, Australian Broadcasting Corporation. And, he facilitated the news department. He, processing the film for the news department. But he knew the head of the film department, and he got me an interview with him to... And I wanted to be in camera. And he said, "Look, there's no vacancies in camera, but there is one in, coming up in editing. Why don't you go in there and then you can see, you can, maybe you can transfer over?" So I didn't know much about editing, like most people don't know much about editing. And it wasn't until about three years into it, and it was a very good training area, but about three years in, I decided I didn't wanna be in camera, I wanted to pursue editing. Mainly I wanted to pursue drama editing. 'Cause I went in working on n… news, which is the most basic form of editing, news for the m… nightly bulletin. So then current affairs, which became a little bit more complicated with double system, sound and picture, instead of just silent pictures. And then I went to drama as an assistant editor, and that's when I really realized that's what I wanted to do.

11:45Richard Francis-BruceSo it, wasn't my first choice, but I never regretted it.

11:52Jawad MirIt's, it's funny you mention that, right? Because, I've, for the longest time I've always wanted to be a director. And when I had that aspiration… I thought, you know, director and cameraman are the same thing. This is like way back in 1993. And even though I do that, but I enjoy editing at times way more, which is something I never dreamt of. And I don't know, is it because that you get to, you know, move around things more, is more control that you have in your hands as opposed to, you know, working on a camera?

12:27Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

12:28Jawad MirWhere you just... You know, it's just something about creation I think if I'm not, if I've got the right word.

12:33Richard Francis-BruceIt is very crea… creative. And you edit... They say that the film is written three times.

12:40Jawad MirYes.

12:40Richard Francis-BruceWritten by the script, written when it's directed because when it's directed, it's…

12:44Jawad MirYeah

12:44Richard Francis-Bruce... Changing all the time. And then when, and then in the editing room. I don't think I've ever worked with a director that hasn't enjoyed the editing process. I mean, they normally are a little bit hyper and on edge and overstimulated by the time they get to the cutting room at the end of the shoot…

13:01Jawad MirYeah

13:01Richard Francis-Bruce... Because of the madness of all everyday set activity and the speed and the amount of questions that are thrown at them from every angle, from the actors…

13:13Jawad MirAngle, yeah

13:13Richard Francis-Bruce... From everybody asking some of them something. Which, what do we wanna do here? What do we wanna do there? What clo… should they wear this we… bit of clothing? Should they wear this? And,... I think when they get to the cutting room it takes them a while to settle down and relax, unwind, and e… and enjoy the process more.

13:31Jawad MirYeah. Enjoy, and also I wish I had gotten that shot.

13:37Richard Francis-BruceYes.

13:38Jawad MirDid you ever get that?

13:40Richard Francis-BruceYes. What do you mean I don't have that angle? Yeah. Well, you didn't do it.

13:45Jawad MirWe didn't do the coverage for that.

13:47Richard Francis-BruceYes

13:47Jawad Mir... Richard, in doing The Rock, and Seven or either or, what was the most challenging part in post in terms of creating a, you know, editing a scene and how did you overcome it? Whether it's the pacing, whether it's the mes… whether it's the story unraveling part or the character-driven, whatever that was, h… what was it, if any, and how did you overcome it?

14:12Richard Francis-BruceOn The Rock, I think the most challenging part of the editing process there is that they were still shooting while we were in final…

14:21Jawad MirOh

14:21Richard Francis-Bruce... Supposedly post. They were always…

14:24Jawad MirOkay

14:24Richard Francis-Bruce... Changing stuff and going back and completing scenes or adding to scenes. And so it felt like it never really, we never really had that dedicated post-production period. It always just felt like they were never gonna stop filming. And, so that was the biggest challenge I think with that. I mean, we would have, Michael Bay would have to come, would come into the cutting room and we'd sit down and look at a scene that wasn't working, and we'd work out between us what shots were needed, and he'd go away and do them, and then we'd complete the scene. It felt like it was like that all the time. So a… at the end of it actually, or getting close to the end, I just didn't think we had a film that was gonna work. It just didn't fill me with confidence. But our first preview screening, it really went well. It was a strange... I don't think I've ever had that feeling before 'cause normally you go into these screenings thinking you've got a great film and you realize you haven't by the time the screening's over.

15:27Richard Francis-BruceSo to think that we had not a good, not particularly a good film that worked to having a very good score and then it…

15:35Jawad MirYes

15:35Richard Francis-Bruce... Did very well at the box office. So it took me quite a few years to realize that it was a good film.

15:46Jawad MirNo, it was…

15:46Richard Francis-BruceVery self-critical.

15:49Jawad MirIt, well, it was an amazing film and it was a y… regardless of whatever stuff happened in the background, right? Which every film does. It was one of the films that sync in every way, from the cuts to the music to the action sequence and direction. I still remember literally like now just I'm talking to you, sitting in the movie theater and hearing, like feeling the vibration of the music and the sound effects and the visuals moving so fast. And it worked and it... I have seen that movie, God knows, I don't even know how many times and you know…

16:27Richard Francis-BruceOh, really?

16:27Jawad Mir... Even just like few days ago I was watching it and it just never gets old. And then the score of The Rock is something I still have the soundtrack for the last 25 years and I listen to it almost all the time.

16:40Richard Francis-BruceYeah, it was a great score.

16:41Jawad MirBut…

16:42Richard Francis-BruceAnd r… and I think a lot of it, I mean, the whole filmmaking process is collaborative, but what I, what I've always found enjoyable and revealing sometimes not badly, but, is when the composer gets involved and the score comes to, and brings the film to life. I mean…

17:06Jawad MirYeah

17:06Richard Francis-Bruce... I remember on, I think it was Shawshank, I couldn't go to all the scoring sessions 'cause they were scoring as we were final mixing. So they were just trying to keep up with this in, on the s… mixing stage. And, so you'd see a pi… you get a piece of music and then on the stage and that's the first time you'd heard it, and the mixers had heard it and the sound crew had heard it, and all of a sudden it just brought scenes to life. I mean, they were well acted and well written already, but it just seems to up the emotional content…

17:45Jawad MirYeah

17:45Richard Francis-Bruce... Impression about 50%. I mean…

17:49Jawad MirRight

17:49Richard Francis-Bruce... That's good music. Bad music, you know, goes the other, takes it the other way.

17:54Jawad MirTrue. And it, for The Rock, was it your editing was completely done and the music came in or was it like simultaneous back and forth while it was happening?

18:05Richard Francis-BruceNo, it was pretty much done.

18:08Jawad MirOkay

18:08Richard Francis-Bruce... There's always some adjustments that you do.

18:12Jawad MirSure

18:12Richard Francis-Bruce... But normally... Well, funny story. N… normally we, when we change, when we're in post and the composer is already on working on the film and we've given him all the reels and they're locked, and if we ever do a change, we will give him an updated reel so that they can adjust before they go in to score. The only person that doesn't do that is John Williams. John Williams, the first cut you give him, which may be five versions away from the final cut…

18:45Richard Francis-Bruce... He starts writing and scoring to that. And he says, "No, I don't want another version." I said, "But it's quite different." He said, "Don't worry, my music editor will fix all that." And it, he al… it did. You just don't... That, those, the music editors just, are, they're pure musi… magicians. You know, they're fantas… amazing what they can do. And sometimes if they make a change they may come to you and say, "Look, I just can't get this music edit to work. Do you think you can take a few frames off this shot and this shot?" And I'll say, "Fine. Yeah, sure. I can do that. That'll, that's, that's no skin off my nose. We'll do that." Just to make the music work, but it's rare. But you've always gotta be…

19:27Jawad MirYeah

19:27Richard Francis-Bruce... You've always gotta be open to that. You've always gotta be collaborative about it.

19:31Jawad MirWell, that's why John Williams has been nominated for 53 time of Oscars, right? I mean, he's a, he's a…

19:37Richard Francis-BruceAmazing

19:37Jawad Mir... Legendary still at it. I mean, just the am… amount of themes that he's created, I mean, it's amazing.

19:43Richard Francis-BruceI mean, he wrote the main theme for Harry Potter I think was, wh… what was it called? Hedwig's Theme. Hedwig the, you know, the owl.

19:52Jawad MirYeah.

19:54Richard Francis-BruceHe wrote a version of it and recorded it without seeing a frame of the picture, and they wanted us... And it just blew me away when we got it. And they…

20:05Jawad MirYeah

20:05Richard Francis-Bruce... The, then the studio said they wanted a, they wanted, like, a demo reel of the, of the film so far. So we cut an, a version of just shots, no dialogue, just shots from the first episode against this music, and it's usually the other way around, right?

20:24Jawad MirYeah.

20:24Richard Francis-BruceThat they make the music fit the picture. We made the picture fit the music, and the studio were just over the moon because it just looked so good.

20:34Jawad MirYeah.

20:34Richard Francis-BruceIt just…

20:35Jawad MirIt…

20:35Richard Francis-BruceHe's amazing at picking sto… well, imagining a story. I suppose maybe because he'd worked with Chris Columbus a lot in the, in the past.

20:48Jawad MirYes.

20:48Richard Francis-BruceBut he knew, he knew what it was gonna sound like, you know? He knew what it was gonna look like, and it's, the picture and the music just worked hand in glove. I've had the pleasure…

20:59Jawad MirWell, it's, it's also…

21:01Richard Francis-BruceSorry, I just want…

21:02Jawad MirNo

21:02Richard Francis-Bruce... I've had the pleasure of working twice with, John Williams. The first one was on Witches of Eastwick, and it was the same thing. He'd ha… he came into the cutting room to look at the image and, look at the picture, and he's standing behind me and George Miller as we're running it reel by reel. So we turn around and he's, like, humming away and he's, he's writing the music as he's watching it. He's knows wh… the direction he's gonna go. Incredible to watch.

21:34Jawad MirYeah. He's a genius. And I was watching Chris Columbus interview. I mean, they were talking about Home Alone and, you know, when they finished Home Alone there was no music and, you know, they thought they had created a good film. But when John Williams' score came into play it completely... I mean, this is Chris Columbus saying himself, it completely changed the film and it has a beautiful, it has a great theme. It has amazing, you know, like, tracks. Every single thing is it, he just, he just made that film. I mean, if you watch Home Alone without his music, I don't think, even though it's a great film it won't work, you know? He's such a, such a genius…

22:11Richard Francis-BruceNo

22:11Jawad Mir... In what he does.

22:13Richard Francis-BruceAnd that's what great music does. It just, it's, it's the emotional coder of the movie, you know?

22:18Jawad MirYeah.

22:18Richard Francis-BruceA lot of people say it's manipulative because... But I don't, I don't see it that way.

22:23Jawad MirNo. No. Yeah.

22:25Richard Francis-BruceI, he, I mean, look at the themes he's written. Oh my God, you know? So many great themes.

22:29Jawad MirThere's millions of them. Richard, in The Rock, when I think about The Rock, two scenes pop in my head immediately, and I have seen those scenes on YouTube by themselves over and over again over the past several years. The shower scene when the arm… the forces come in and there's, like, an attack from the top, and then the green smoke which is the ending where the fighter jet goes up and the blast takes place. Tell me how you cut those two scenes, because there's just so much intensity and emotion and suspense and drama in both of those scenes. Obviously music has a part in it, but still the editing. Do you remember much about h… when you were editing those two particular scenes?

23:18Richard Francis-BruceYou know, I don't. I mean, I don't... Y… you know, it's, may sound strange, but I just do it. I m… I don't know if I have a way, a technique or... M… m… my... Oop. Lost my earphone. No worries. Michael Bay is very much, about putting as many cuts in as possible.

23:43Jawad MirYeah

23:43Richard Francis-Bruce... And the, and I tend to be, I'm fine with that, to a point. So I think a lot of it was, I said, "Michael, you know, we can't have shots that are four frames long, you know? It's, like, too quick to register." And so a lot of the times it was, it was detuning it from being hyperactive. So, I always try to keep it moving as fast as possible. And we're remembering that the audience haven't seen these shots before…

24:19Jawad MirYeah

24:19Richard Francis-Bruce... Before, so you can't go, "Well, make that shot half the length." And they go, "No, you can't. People have gotta register it and lock onto it." And it works fine on a small screen because your eyes don't have to do much work, right?

24:37Jawad MirYeah.

24:37Richard Francis-BruceBut when you get up onto a big screen, if they're quick cuts, your eyes are going from there to there to there. But I also like to try and keep... And this is only, there's only a limited amount of this you can do as the editor when it's already been shot. But like to keep as much as the action happening in the same part of the frame from cut to cut so the eyes don't have to…

24:57Jawad MirYeah

24:58Richard Francis-Bruce... Jump around.

24:59Jawad MirYeah.

25:00Richard Francis-BruceSo like if someone was walking across the screen and you knew that the next cut they were gonna appear on that pa… that part of the frame, well, then you'd, you wouldn't let them go exit the, exit the screen. You'd try and get them to get there, and then the next cut they're in that same position. You know what I'm saying?

25:17Jawad MirRight. Yeah.

25:17Richard Francis-BruceEspecially on a huge 70-foot screen. So I always, I always with those, with action scenes, I'm always thinking of that.

25:26Jawad MirAnd…

25:27Richard Francis-BruceGeorge Miller makes it, George Miller m… George Miller makes it easy because he shoots like that with telling the d… the operators, "I'm, all the action's gotta happen in the middle of the screen," even though it's a anamorphic frame. And that's why they, those cuts…

25:39Jawad MirYeah

25:40Richard Francis-Bruce... Work so smoothly.

25:42Jawad MirAnd my question was more of a, it should've been a comment as opposed to a question. It's just those two scenes are just so well cut. I mean, you can... You know, there's very few films that have scenes in them that can stand alone by themselves as a short film, you know? Let's just, let's just say that. Like, Quentin Tarantino does that really well the way he writes. Like, his scenes are so long and they're just, you know, you can take them as short films. But especially in The Rock for me, those two scenes, you can watch them on their own and you will still feel something, the suspense, the emotion. You will understand the context, and that's what I l… loved about those two scenes. And I just wanted to, you know, con… congratulate you on that. I know it's been a while, and I'm sure you've heard it a lot…

26:31Richard Francis-BruceYeah

26:31Jawad Mir... But…

26:31Richard Francis-BruceI'll have to go look at them again.

26:34Jawad MirYeah. And I know as an editor, sometimes the things that you think are very powerful and you're like, "Yeah, I got it," people don't get it. And then the ones that you don't really care much about, people register with it a lot, so.

26:48Richard Francis-BruceY… yeah.

26:48Jawad MirBut, you know…

26:49Richard Francis-BruceWell, that's…

26:50Jawad Mir... Thank you for creating those

26:51Richard Francis-Bruce... Well, that's a film that is a very much like that. Like, I have people coming up to me and saying it's one of their favorite films, and I go, "Really?" You know? "Really? " I just remember what it was like to get to, get it to that point and it was, you know…

27:06Jawad MirYeah

27:06Richard Francis-Bruce... Arduous. So I'm, took me a long time to actually, believe those people, you know?

27:15Jawad MirYeah. Were there any deleted scenes in Seven that, you wanted to keep or David wanted to keep that didn't make it to the film, whether it was through because of running time or the movement of the story or pacing?

27:31Richard Francis-BruceNo. I really don't think there was any deleted scenes. It's been so long now. Now you kind of…

27:39Jawad MirOr was…

27:40Richard Francis-BruceControversy was about the end

27:42Jawad Mir... Or was there a scene that you... Or was there a scene that he wanted to keep or you wanted to keep and that it didn't end up happening, or were you guys very synchronized in that sense?

27:50Richard Francis-BruceOh, no. He, we were very much on the same page. Excuse me. There's my cat.

27:55Jawad MirNo worry.

27:55Richard Francis-BruceTrying to hog it. Yeah.

27:57Jawad MirNo worry. No worry.

27:59Richard Francis-BruceHe never does that. He just knows he's, he's on Zoom. No.

28:04Jawad MirYeah.

28:04Richard Francis-BruceThere wasn't, there wasn't really any of that. We were very much on the same page. And, it was just the only real controversy there was the, was the end, which has been well documented that, the studio didn't think we could end the movie the way David wanted to end it, which was just after Mills had shot John Doe, just have him walking away, you know?

28:31Jawad MirYeah.

28:31Richard Francis-BruceBut they had us sh… go back and reshoot after our first screening, or not reshoot, but shoot a new tag to that scene.

28:41Jawad MirYeah.

28:41Richard Francis-BruceBut no, there was nothing. There, it was a very well-written script, you know? It was, that and Shawshank and Harry Potter and The Rock really didn't have any rewrite. You know, ra… it was rare to have a script, have those scripts that when they went into production there was no, you know, rewriting going on at the same time as you're shooting, which happens a lot on films…

29:06Jawad MirYeah

29:06Richard Francis-Bruce... Where, you know, they're, they're s… second-guessing themselves. Those were just so well-written that they, we just shot the scripts. Always a pleasure.

29:21Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, but, you know, here's a, one of the things I've asked a few editors before is that a director more or less gets a ch… you know, choice. Okay, should he, if an agent brings a script to him, he or she may say they wanna do it or they may not wanna do it, right? When it comes to an editor, it's a little less I feel, and maybe it's different for you, is that sometimes it's a job. You know? You have to pay the bills and whatnot.

29:48Jawad MirSo when you get, when you get on a project, you go through the script and then decide is this something different than what you have done before?

29:57Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

29:57Jawad MirIs that…

29:58Richard Francis-BruceYes

29:58Jawad Mir... How you approach it?

29:58Richard Francis-BruceYeah. I mean, obviously in my early stages of my career when I was trying to establish myself, you literally just took what you got.

30:06Jawad MirRight. Yeah.

30:07Richard Francis-BruceAnd, you… When I got the script for, Shawshank, I got another script at the same time called, My Father the Hero with Gerard Depardieu and Katherine Heigl. And I was working on s… Sliver, the Sharon Stone movie.

30:32Jawad MirYep.

30:33Richard Francis-BruceAnd it was exhausting work, it was long days, long hours. And I said to my wife, "I can't read these scripts. I can't, just don't have time. Would you read them and tell me which one I should try and find time to do?" And she read that, the Depardieu one and said, "Well, it's just not great, but you know, not bad." And then, the next time I came home I said, "Have you started the other one?" She said, "Yeah, I've started it. It's about, you know, a man in prison, I don't know. It's early days." Then the next time I came home I said, "So did you finish it?" She said, "Forget everything I said about it. You gotta f… you've gotta read this script. You gotta find time to read this script." And I was actually being, I was being ch… chased by the other people who wanted me, w… and I hadn't heard back from the Shawshank people whether they wanted me. And there was this period of telling my agent, "Tell them you can't find me, I don't wanna make, I don't want to commit to that, I wanna do the Shawshank one."

31:38Richard Francis-BruceAnd they eventually came back to me.

31:39Jawad MirYeah.

31:40Richard Francis-BruceBut so yeah, I do. And, but y… from about that point on I, there was a period in the '90s, about a 10-year period, where I, everything I was asked to do was pretty good, and I was able to, and they wanted me and I wanted to do it. So I had a, I had a great run in that time. Up until Harry Potter, I think, that was when, that was my m… highlight of my career.

32:09Jawad MirWell, it, I mean yeah, '90s is the n… era that, you know, it is something that I grew up in and the, you know, some of the most amazing films, the ones that we're talking about, The Rock, Shawshank, Green Mile, Se7en, Harry Potter. I mean, these films not only, you know, did well from a box office standep… standpoint, but also critically. You know?

32:32Richard Francis-BruceYes.

32:32Jawad MirThey were loved by people, and that, and that's a rare thing. I mean, Shawshank didn't really do well when it came out in theaters, but eventually it did.

32:40Richard Francis-BruceYeah

32:40Jawad Mir... But they're, they're still remembered by people and, a… and audiences. And in Se7en, Richard, was it alway… was it in the script not to show the last vict… the second last victim in the box?

32:57Richard Francis-BruceYes.

32:57Jawad MirOr was that always in?

32:58Richard Francis-BruceThat was always in the script, yeah. And

33:02Jawad MirYeah, no, I'm glad that it was because one thing I loved about Se7en, and obviously script has a credit to it, but the way you cut the scene between, Morgan Freeman's character, Somerset, and Tracy, Gwyneth Paltrow, you know, that relationship that was built between them in the, in the…

33:24Richard Francis-BruceIn the restaurant

33:25Jawad Mir... Apartment and the diner.

33:27Richard Francis-BruceOh, the, yeah, the restaurant.

33:28Jawad MirYeah. And, it just paid off so well at the end because, it was not because it was in the script alone, but it was just the way it was directed and the way it was edited, everything, it really was... I mean, that to me was the film, you know, the relationship between Morgan Freeman and Gwyneth Paltrow. It was just like two strangers who are trying to, you know, get be… you know, just friends and she's…

33:54Richard Francis-BruceYeah

33:54Jawad Mir... Putting food in him.

33:56Richard Francis-BruceWell…

33:56Jawad MirSo that was really well done.

33:58Richard Francis-BruceWell, the way, I do love cutting drama, g… and good drama, good dialogue. And I'm great believer in, you know, if someone is saying something important, make sure you've got it on camera. Don't, don't... I mean, there is a great YouTube, I forget the name of the guy. Cl… you've probably seen this guy, dissected a scene from Bohemian Rhapsody and actually broke it down shot by shite, shot, and actually said, "This, I, this is the reason why Bohemian Rhapsody should not have won the Academy Award." And he was very, I've seen these kinds of things before and I don't do usually agree with it, but I agreed with him. The scene was an outside scene around a table, and it was so overcut.

34:48Jawad MirYeah.

34:48Richard Francis-BruceIt was a dialogue scene, so overcut and confusing. Too many cuts. And he eliminated cuts and then showed his version, and it was so much better. But he was also commenting on things that, you know, I've always believed and been taught, and always just know, just instinctively know that if an actor is saying a very important line, don't cut away to someone else unless there's a reason. Like, motivation for cuts is very important. Otherwise you run the risk of having a scene look like it's been cut by a algorithm, you know? It's just…

35:27Jawad MirYeah

35:27Richard Francis-Bruce... All over the place. Like, why do you go to a wide shot in the middle of a scene? There's gotta be a reason, you know? I don't, I don't think, sometimes a scene is overcut, over-covered i… in the material, in the angles, and you just can't really d… use all those angles. You think, "Why did they spend the h… this time on this scene that could've just worked with two close-ups and a couple of overs and a master?" I mean, that's l… a lot to do with, like, Clint Eastwood wouldn't do that, you know? He's famous…

36:05Jawad MirYeah

36:05Richard Francis-Bruce... For just two takes and that's it, move on.

36:10Jawad MirYeah, no, and that's one thing that really… Gets to me too, and even in action films I can't stand it. With, maybe with the exception of Michael Bay films because he just has this style. Is this, you know, there's just too many close-ups and too many different shots, different angles between the character. And you're right about one thing that, depending on what the c… what a character is saying and if it's something really important, yeah, y… sometimes you wanna show the reaction of the other person. But the audience is forgiving enough to not wanna see that. They wanna see the emotion that this character or whatever it is…

36:51Richard Francis-BruceThat's right

36:51Jawad Mir... You're trying to say.

36:52Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

36:53Jawad MirRight?

36:53Richard Francis-BruceI mean, th… those scenes, those two scenes from Seven that you talked about, if you look at them, they're very simple.

37:00Jawad MirYeah.

37:00Richard Francis-BruceThey're very simple. It's great writing, great acting, and don't, don't make a show of the editing, you know? Just, I mean, it's the invisible craft, isn't it? It's, for a reason.

37:11Jawad MirI can just bear that, yeah.

37:12Richard Francis-BruceYeah. You know…

37:13Jawad MirYeah

37:13Richard Francis-Bruce... You shouldn't, you shouldn't ever really, unless for dramatic purpose, you should never really be aware of the cuts. You know? They should…

37:23Jawad MirYeah. They should

37:23Richard Francis-Bruce... Slide by.

37:24Jawad MirYeah.

37:26Richard Francis-BruceYou know? And that's a lot to do with, you know, where you cut. Like, don't cut in the middle of someone blinking or, you know... That's a big thing that bugs me, makes a cut pop. Someone blinks and you c… you cut, it just... Don't do it. Avoid it.

37:44Jawad MirAnd it's so true that, you know, I'm obviously an audience member, but at the same time I'm in the industry, and there's sometimes I would pick up on editing, "Oh, that was a nice cut," or, "That was a nice cut," or, "That was a good place to cut." But sometimes I'm so involved, and that obviously has to do with the characters, with the script, with the direction, even with the editing, that the film gets over and I'm like, "I didn't even analyze the film." You know? Like…

38:15Richard Francis-BruceYeah

38:15Jawad Mir... The way the camera was set up. It... And that's, that's the beauty of it. Like, with Seven it was like that. The Sh… Shawshank Redemption. The Rock I think it was in the... When I first saw it, that because it was just an action-packed film, it had to be, but... And that's, that's the beauty of editing. Like, not noticing that it was edited. It just feels like you were there and you were just watching things happen…

38:36Richard Francis-BruceYeah

38:36Jawad Mir... In front of your eyes.

38:37Richard Francis-BruceYeah, exactly.

38:40Jawad MirUsual Suspects came out before Seven with Kevin Spacey, couple of years before. And, in Seven, obviously, you know, you don't see, even in the trailers, who... They don't even, you know, the mar… the studio doesn't even advertise that Kevin Spacey's in the film, and they kept it under wraps. How in, how important was it? Because there were a couple of scenes before, when he revealed, when he comes to the police station when he's running away, and you see the... You know, obviously his action movement was really fast, but you see his full body. Was there a lot of blacks that you... Well, I guess you didn't do color, but was that something in mind of David Fincher that you know? That…

39:25Richard Francis-BruceOh, yeah

39:26Jawad Mir... You have to make sure that it's decent?

39:28Richard Francis-BruceYeah. And I think the reason, the main reason that they... And it makes perfect sense, that they didn't wanna put Kevin Spacey's name in the credits, is because John Doe is this mysterious character for so much of the movie…

39:45Jawad MirYeah

39:45Richard Francis-Bruce... Until he turns around at the police station and s… you know, the, and says, "Here I am," basically. Then everybody would've known who it was, because they would've seen his name at the front and he hasn't, he's not, he's still not i… not in it. 30 minutes in, he's still not in it. And then af… so they go, "Oh, he's the killer." So I think that was the main reason they didn't want to,.. I mean, then again, you know, once the movie's out, everybody knows that,.. But there's no like…

40:13Jawad MirWell, you know, audience is actually... Audience is pretty good in that, because I remember when it came out a lot of the people would say, "I don't wanna tell you what it is. You just gotta go watch it." Like, they wouldn't even tell you…

40:24Richard Francis-BruceYeah

40:24Jawad Mir... Kevin Spacey…

40:24Richard Francis-BruceYeah

40:24Jawad Mir... Was in it, you know?

40:26Richard Francis-BruceYeah, that was way be…

40:27Jawad MirWhich is really…

40:27Richard Francis-Bruce... Way befo… way before the internet, now, right? When you can't keep a secret anymore.

40:32Jawad MirYeah.

40:32Richard Francis-BruceThey couldn't do that today…

40:33Jawad MirNo

40:33Richard Francis-Bruce... Could they?

40:34Jawad MirNo, you can't. Working on Shawshank, Richard, what was the most gratifying, not as an editor, as a human being? W… what was something that you enjoyed the most in terms of the story and the scene that you were composing or watching as, after you were putting them together?

40:55Richard Francis-BruceI think just that it was such a compelling story. You know, just the dialogue was great. I mean, it, when I, when I read it, I, you just knew I had to do that film, you know? It just wa… this is a real movie about real... I mean, it wasn't flashy. I mean, the quickest cuts in that movie is, I think is when, the, character, Bill, Gil Bellows's character, forgetting his name now. When he was shot, you know? Those are the quick… quickest cuts in the movie, you know?

41:29Jawad MirYeah.

41:30Richard Francis-BruceBut it, but it's just a good, solid drama. And the…

41:36Jawad MirIt was

41:36Richard Francis-Bruce... The s… the setting, I mean, it wasn't a very pleasant location to be hon… to be honest. Middle of Mansfield, Ohio, and in the summer. It was pretty tough, but it was worth it. It was worth the three months or four months, whatever it was. I don't know, it's just…

41:55Jawad MirYou re…

41:56Richard Francis-BruceSorry, go ahead please. Yeah, it's, it's hard to know. Just something speaks to you know? You go, "I wanna do this."

42:03Jawad MirI know what you mean.

42:04Richard Francis-BruceYou know, I didn't think it was gonna be a big hit. I didn't really. I just thought it was gonna be a good movie. You know?

42:10Jawad MirYeah.

42:10Richard Francis-BruceIt didn't seem to be commercial. But I think all that certainly… We knew we had something unusual when we first previewed it, and we previewed it in a part of LA where, which is a rather, a large Black area, mixed race area…

42:28Richard Francis-Bruce... And a lot of, people in the audience were actually talking and yelling to the screen. Like, "Don't..." You know, they were so involved in the movie. That was an eye-opener. That was just an eye-opener. They were hooting and hollering when it all came to an end, and I mean, it was just like a party. It was just bizarre. And it was very disappointing…

42:52Jawad MirYeah

42:52Richard Francis-Bruce... Then that it, then when it didn't do well at the box office, and that was, that's a whole nother story. I think they just didn't know what they had. They didn't know how to…

43:02Jawad MirMarket it

43:03Richard Francis-Bruce... Didn't know how to set market it.

43:05Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, well, I, and when you were working on Shawshank, and I know you kinda mentioned this in the beginning, that most of the times you were editing simultaneously. Were you physically at the location…

43:20Richard Francis-BruceYes

43:21Jawad Mir... When you were editing?

43:22Richard Francis-BruceYeah, we were in this old factory. I think it was the GE factory that was closed down. This big spooky old place. And, it was, next to it, outside, they, in a warehouse outside, they built the cell block. 'cause that cell block, the main cell block where all the, all the rows of cells, that was a set, but everything else, all the other parts of the prison were real or actual. Because the cell blocks in the prison were not, they weren't very suitable for filming. They weren't very…

44:00Jawad MirYeah

44:00Richard Francis-Bruce... Photogenic.

44:03Jawad MirSure. But when you're on the set editing, you know, simultaneously, is there ever a time that you actually go when the scene is being shot just to, just as a coffee break or intentionally…

44:17Richard Francis-BruceI…

44:17Jawad Mir... That I just wanna see how this is playing?

44:19Richard Francis-BruceYeah, you know, I avoid going to the set in a lot of ways. A, because everything moves so slowly there, and…

44:28Jawad MirYeah

44:29Richard Francis-Bruce... And I'd also don't wanna be, in any way influenced by what's going on in the politics on the set.

44:38Jawad MirYeah.

44:38Richard Francis-BruceI really just wanna be influenced by what's in front of me the next day, which is the dailies. And…

44:44Jawad MirRight

44:45Richard Francis-Bruce... And it's like instant gratification too, 'cause it's, the whole day's filming is all there for me straight away, whereas…

44:52Jawad MirRight

44:52Richard Francis-Bruce... The painful part of 12 hours of getting it all together, and the, you know, the pace of a, the set, the amount of time between takes. I don't think I've ever c… ever, I ever could or ever been a director because I'm very much like, "Right now." You know? "Give me that shot. I wanna use it. Cut it in, and I can do it straight away," instead of waiting. But, yeah, so I didn't go down there very often. Only when I was, asked to go down there 'cause the director or the producer had a, had a question for me about was this gonna work going from this scene to that, to that scene, 'cause all, they already had one of the scenes in the can, and they wanted to know if, y… how they were transitioning and was it gonna work if they did this, and this. So that was the o… only time.

45:45Jawad MirYeah. In Seven, I a… I was actually watching it today, just to kind of refresh my memory just because it's been a long time, and one thing that I really loved, I don't remember the names of the characters that well. The scene where there's a photograph with the blood around the woman's eyes. I don't know if you remember that. And when they're talking about it, and the scene cuts and you see Gwyneth Paltrow lying down on the bed. And, you know, t… to me, I, maybe I'm overlooking it, was that something, an intentional, like a foreshadowing or just kinda giving little signals to audience that there's

46:24Richard Francis-BruceNo…

46:25Jawad Mir... Something more there?

46:25Richard Francis-Bruce... No.

46:25Jawad MirNo?

46:26Richard Francis-BruceNo, I think, I think you're reading a bit too much into that. No. There was nothing. Nothing there, no.

46:31Jawad MirOkay. I read way too much…

46:32Richard Francis-BruceAs far as I know. Da… David might have had a different idea, but he never told me. You know? It's...

46:38Jawad MirIt's probably not then. I'm just probably looking into it too much. This is what happens when you watch something too many times. You start looking into it too much.

46:46Richard Francis-BruceTrue.

46:47Jawad MirAnd what's, what's, what are you working on nowadays

46:52Richard Francis-BruceI'm retired now.

46:53Jawad MirSince you're retired?

46:53Richard Francis-BruceNow I'm, I haven't worked…

46:55Jawad MirOh, you're done?

46:55Richard Francis-BruceYeah, I'm done. It's, it be… it's become too... I mean, look, I haven't worked on a film for four years, five years maybe. I'm in the, grandfather business at the moment and enjoying that. Yeah, it's, I don't know. It's such a different world now. I don't know if I'd enjoy it too much. I mean, the best films now seem to be made for streaming services, and all the other films are, like, I don't wanna really work on another v… another version of Batman or Spider-Man. And…

47:34Jawad MirYeah

47:34Richard Francis-Bruce... I mean, it's all fil… movie movies. You know, I was brought up in the era of David Lean and Dr. Zhivago and all those.

47:43Jawad MirYeah.

47:43Richard Francis-BruceThat was what I considered a movie, and that's what always what got me interested in the business, and I was at least lucky enough to work on films that were movies, you know? So…

47:55Jawad MirI am, I'm right there with you. I am not a fan of superhero movies. I don't watch them, and, you know, I miss those movies, like... I mean, Christopher Nolan now is one of those directors. Quentin Tarantino. You know, s… just last few left. Actually, speaking of that, if Christopher Nolan or Quentin Tarantino or Steven Spielberg came to you and said they want you to edit one of their films, would you reconsider?

48:19Richard Francis-BruceI would. I would

48:20Jawad MirYeah

48:21Richard Francis-BruceI would, but I, but I, you know, I worked with too many directors towards the later part of my career that were old enough to be my son. And, they, I don't think they necessarily wanna work with a, you know, someone who can be their…

48:36Jawad MirFather

48:36Richard Francis-Bruce... Would be their father. I mean, all the young filmmakers coming up, and I mean, it was the same when I was coming up, we were all young working together. You didn't really have old people working on the movie, you know what I mean? It's like…

48:50Jawad MirYeah, I know. Yeah

48:53Richard Francis-BruceI don't know

48:53Jawad MirYeah, I mean, it's the same thing. It's the same thing, like if you're in your 40s and if there's a director who's 22 to 23, chances of them hiring somebody who's in their 40s is highly unlikely, just because…

49:06Richard Francis-BruceNo, they…

49:06Jawad Mir... I mean, it's different

49:08Richard Francis-BruceThey wanna hire their friends

49:09Jawad MirDifferent mindset

49:09Richard Francis-BruceThey're, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're…

49:11Jawad MirYeah

49:12Richard Francis-Bruce... Their peers. They don't wanna hi… have some old fogey.

49:18Jawad MirYeah. What's, what's some of your favorite films, that you obvious… you know, that you haven't been part of? I mean, you mentioned Doctor Zhivago, and I'm sure Lawrence Arabia is up there too. Some of the films that you have enjoyed over the last four, five decades.

49:36Richard Francis-BruceWell, from a, from a, I really liked, Chicago. Chicago was a fantastically energetic film, but it wasn't... It could have so easily been exhausting to watch, but I found it thrilling, editorially, especially.

49:56Jawad MirRight.

49:56Richard Francis-BruceBeautifully cut. But also it was a fun movie, and it was, there was such power behind the performances, the songs. I don't know. It's a hard one. Obviously I've mentioned before that David Lean films were the ones that…

50:16Jawad MirYeah

50:16Richard Francis-Bruce... And Robert Wise, and,.. See, I don't really have any really,.. It's not a great sound grab, is it? I don't have any…

50:28Jawad MirNo. I'm not looking…

50:29Richard Francis-BruceI don't…

50:29Jawad MirI honestly am not looking for a sound grab. It's just more so just a conversation. I, you know…

50:35Richard Francis-BruceYeah

50:35Jawad Mir... Or may… maybe now it, who do you, what was the last good film that you saw? And this is not to put down any other film, but that's something that spoke to you or clicked with you in whatever capacity that was.

50:47Richard Francis-BruceYeah. What was the last good film? Well, I loved Sp… Steven Spielberg's last film, The Fabelmans. I really thought that was…

50:55Jawad MirThat was great

50:55Richard Francis-Bruce... I mean, as a, as a, it was such an insider film, but it was also, I think, entertaining enough for people, as a story, just on its… ... Standalone story. But, I found that o… of the last year anyway, that was my favorite film. I liked, 197… 1917.

51:22Jawad MirYes.

51:22Richard Francis-BruceI thought that was a great piece of filmmaking. I mean, it was gimmicky in a way, but it didn't really strike me as gimmicky. The one-shot, supposed one-shot…

51:33Jawad MirYeah

51:34Richard Francis-Bruce... Movie. It was just so well done. I thought the story was good. That was probably the last movie that I've really liked.

51:44Jawad MirYeah.

51:46Richard Francis-BruceYeah.

51:46Jawad MirYeah, no. The, yeah, I mean, it's, it's very rare now, you know, good, at least from my point of view, you know, good films are being made or maybe we're all getting old, right? Like our tastes are sort of, sort of fa… fading away, and maybe that's what it is.

52:02Richard Francis-BruceWe always say…

52:03Jawad MirYeah

52:03Richard Francis-Bruce... It was good in the, it was good in the old days. But I think that n… 80s and the 90s particularly, if you look at the films that were up for Academy Awards and when there was only five for Best Picture, you know…

52:14Jawad MirYeah

52:15Richard Francis-Bruce... There were, in just in one year, you go, "Oh my God, they're all good films." But now it's, it's, I think it's diluted by the fact that they have 10, you've gotta vote for 10 in the Best Picture category…

52:27Jawad MirWell…

52:27Richard Francis-Bruce... 'cause, you know.

52:29Jawad MirIt's not even the number I find. I find, again, I don't know if the argument is that we were, you know, I was young at the time in the 90s that I would know this, or was it because real, really good film. Like, I would literally know every single film that was nominated then the actor, then the actresses, and because they were good films, like they were actually genuinely picked really well. But now, I mean, I would, in the last 10, 15 years, especially in the last 10 years, I wouldn't... Academy Awards will come in and I'll be like, "Okay, let's watch this movie," and I'll watch them like, "Why was this even nominated?" You know? It's like…

53:05Richard Francis-BruceNo

53:05Jawad Mir... It doesn't have any…

53:06Richard Francis-BruceI totally agree. And I go on about it sometimes too much because it's, it's sad, you know? Because these aren't... Can you remember the last few years, like five, last five films that won Best Picture?

53:23Jawad MirNo. No clue.

53:24Richard Francis-BruceNo.

53:24Jawad MirNo clue.

53:24Richard Francis-BruceI mean, it, they're not memorable anymore. They're not, they may be…

53:28Jawad MirYeah

53:29Richard Francis-Bruce... Okay in the moment for that year, but after, they don't stand the test of time, is what I'm saying. Yeah. They're not…

53:36Jawad MirYeah

53:36Richard Francis-Bruce... They're not

53:39Jawad MirAnd it's also true in terms of a, the, a, you know, you, we remember certain lines from a lot of movies back from the 70s, 80s, 90s, even early 2000s, you know, like from Jaws, from Schindler's List, from Home Alone, from The Rock…

53:55Richard Francis-BruceYes

53:55Jawad Mir... All these. But now there, I have no i… there's just nothing out there. All, everything is out on memes, like, you know, on the internet people make these memes up. But I don't, I don't know any lines from any films that come out now. They're not memorable enough. They're not written well.

54:09Richard Francis-BruceYeah. No, exactly. Exactly.

54:13Jawad MirWell, good. This has been great, Richard. Thank you so much for your time. Is there anything else you wanna add?

54:21Richard Francis-BruceNo. I'm, I'm happy I can help you.