'Oppenheimer', Author, Jada Yuan

0:07Jawad MirHow was Sundance?

0:09Jada YuanIt was cool. It was, it was like a cool, yeah. I saw a lot of good movies that's for certain.

0:19Jawad MirGood. W… it wasn't your first time, right, I'm assuming?

0:21Jada YuanNo, I've been, I've been a bunch of times.

0:23Jawad MirYeah. It's a g… great festival.

0:26Jada YuanYeah. You've been…

0:28Jawad MirWonderful

0:28Jada Yuan... I'm guessing.

0:29Jawad MirYeah.

0:29Jada YuanBut sh…

0:29Jawad MirYeah. I went, 2018. I'm a filmmaker myself, so, for just the kind of network purposes, I went and then I fell sick, and I didn't do anything. Like, I pretty much stayed in my hotel for three days, like it was really bad. So it wasn't really a Sundance thing. I would think I was just out for maybe for a day. But even what I saw from just the environment, the people, and the, you know, the little setups they have had, have from different companies and it's just a nice little place to be at. From what I saw, it was pretty cool. I would love to go again. It's been a while.

1:05Jada Yuan2018 was the first year I skipped 'cause I was doing 52 Places that year. So yeah, I went around the world…

1:13Jawad MirYeah

1:13Jada Yuan... Instead.

1:14Jawad MirOh, awesome. That's even better. Well, thank you again for tuning in. I got your book here. Great book. And, you know, thank you for writing it. M… I have an interesting story about Oppenheimer. We went to see it with... Like, my wife and I, w… we saw Barbie, I think, a week before, a few days before, and I was more looking forward to this than Barbie, and I was surprised by Barbie, like a lot of people. And, I went to see Oppenheimer, and it did not click. It just... It, like, rarely a Christopher Nolan movie does not click with me. And I think what did it to me was we went to see it in IMAX, and the screen size kept changing, obviously, because, you know, you don't... It wasn't entirely filmed in IMAX. And the cuts and the story, and I didn't know anything about the backstory. And then I came and I talked to people, and especially people who are engineers and stuff, and they were raving. And I'm like, "Did I miss something?"

2:15Jawad MirLike, what happened? Like, it was such... You know, it just didn't click with me. And then I saw it again, and I understood it a lot more, and I realized why it is, you know, the way it is and why did people click with it. But the first viewing, yeah, w… it kind of just threw me off. It didn't click with me at all. But just wanted to share that context-wise.

2:35Jada YuanIt's funny 'cause it didn't, it didn't for me either, but I was seeing it for the first time kind of... I'd been tr… they were, they were really open about letting me try to see it before, while I was writing the book, but the screenings were all happening very spontaneously on certain Fridays, in Los Angeles. And so I,.. They would tell me, like, on a Thursday, they were like, "Hey, we're gonna have a screening tomorrow in Los Angeles," and I would be in New York and just sort of the... You can't get... It's pretty hard…

3:07Jawad MirYeah

3:07Jada Yuan... To get from New York to Los Angeles…

3:10Jawad MirYeah

3:10Jada Yuan... For, like, a 9:00 AM screening in time. And then…

3:15Jawad MirTh… there's no flights that early in the morning to get there at 9:00 AM.

3:17Jada YuanYeah. You can't, you can't go in the morning. And then, I think even, like, the red-eyes don't really, like, work that well going the opposite direction. So I didn't see it until we were sort of in the last throes of putting the book together. It was like the first half of the book was locked, and the second half, which was about production and the actors and stuff, was still... Like, there was a little play there, but I was basically fact-checking. And, I hadn't heard the sound. I was, like, writing chapters about the sound of the movie and the score and all of these things. And then, and then, I remember watching it, and they had sort of said something about how Jason Clarke's character and the guys in that hearing room were a big deal, and I hadn't written any character pages for those people, and I was just freaking out the whole time I was watching this movie. So when I left, and people were like, "Oh, what'd you think of the movie?" I was like, "I don't know." I, like, I had no idea about this movie.

4:14Jawad MirYeah.

4:14Jada YuanBut, I think what makes me proud to have worked on the book is... I mean, I was doing the book out of sort of a personal need. My grandmother is a nuclear physicist who worked with Oppenheimer. And I…

4:28Jawad MirInteresting

4:29Jada Yuan... It was, and it was filmed in Los Alamos, which is where I'm from. So... And my father's a nuclear physicist. So I had these connections in addition to already being a culture writer. But I, yeah, when I went back and watched the movie a few more times, I have liked it and noticed new things each time I've seen it, and it still holds up for me. I've seen it maybe four or five times at this point. And I think, for me, that speaks more volumes than, like, what I felt the first time I saw it. Because my state of mind was, like, not a good state of mind when I was watching it the first time. And the fact that, like, I still like it, upon repeat viewings, whereas some other movies…

5:15Jada Yuan... I really liked on the first viewing and then saw again, and I, they didn't hold up. Like, it cements it for me, and it makes me feel pretty proud to have worked on it.

5:25Jawad MirThat's awesome. And I was wondering, because I went through your, you know, Twitter and, Amazon, like, you know, when you click on your name, and you see the other books by this author. And maybe you have. I didn't see anything. So I'm wondering, how did you write this book? What's your connection? Now it explains perfectly because, you know, y… your grandfather and your grandmom had worked with, Oppenheimer, so it makes perfect sense. That's so cool. That is so cool. And it's incredible…

5:53Jada YuanJust my grandma. But…

5:54Jawad MirSorry?

5:55Jada YuanBut I think my grandfather must have known him. So my grandparents are, Chinese immigrants, and they… Met at Berkeley. And, it was in the '30s. And so they arrived and Ernest Lawrence, who is, Josh Hartnett's character in the movie…

6:15Jada Yuan... He's the, he's the guy who's really into experimental physics. He designed the cyclotron. Won the Nobel Prize for that. He was basically my grandmother's mentor. So…

6:27Jawad MirWow

6:27Jada Yuan... So she arrived and Lawrence gave her a tour of the cyclotron, and showed her around Berkeley, and she actually switched where she was going to school. She was gonna go to the University of Michigan. My grandmother's name is Chien-Shiung Wu. She's, actually on a 2021 postage stamp. And she's in the book, in the author's note. I wish I had it to show you, but yeah. So, but yeah. So all of these people who are in this, in this movie are people that she personally knew. And I'm, I'm learning a lot more about her. It's sort of this was a launching pad for me to, start exploring maybe writing about her. And I re…

7:13Jawad MirThat is so awesome.

7:15Jada YuanYeah. When she, when she got on the stamp, I wrote a big piece for The Washington Post about her, and that was sort of, like a thought in my head that maybe I would write a book about her, but I think that I, as I go forward, I do. It's, it's sort of, what I really wanna do. I have a, an appointment today that I have to cancel w… with the library in Co… at Columbia University which is, like, going through her archives. So, but I've been doing that every couple weeks. I'll go to the archives, and I'll look at things. And, I even found a letter from Luis Alvarez who is, he's very briefly in the movie. You know, all the guys in this movie, all 80 characters are, all except for one are real people. And so Luis Alvarez was I think one of her closest friends. And he's the guy who, is getting a, like a, at the barbershop when he des… when the news of fission drops and then he starts running.

8:16Jada YuanAnd it was such a big thing. When you're writing the book, you're like, "Oh, I'm, like, following this story," and, like, they had to shut down a street in Pasadena for, like, a day, and it was this big story in the production, and literally it's, like, two seconds in the movie.

8:30Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

8:31Jada YuanWhich is, I guess what you learn is that I spent all this time writing about these, like, dilemmas that they were having and all these things, and they really show up for about, like, three minutes most in the film.

8:43Jawad MirOf course, that's the way it is. But that is, that is so cool. I'm so glad we're talking because that personal connection is just something completely different. I mean, this is a great book, but that defines it way more. I w… I wonder because my,.. I go to California, and I know a few people in the startup. And they, you know, they're very successful, and they've been engineers. M… majority of the people... I shouldn't say majority. A good chunk of people that I have met in startup business who are very successful, they used to be engineers, and one of them I know, he wrote a thesis paper on Oppenheimer. So he was very excited when the film came out, and he and I had this conversation where he's like, "It's a great movie." And I'm like, "Really? Did I miss something?" so he probably even knows your grandma, or at least heard of her because of the fact that he wrote a thesis. I'm s… I'm sure he had, gone through some research in trying to learn. I'll ask him. I'll ask him. That's cool. That's awesome.

9:42Jada YuanSo what threw you off most about the movie? The, when you first saw it.

9:47Jawad MirA lot of things. So being a director myself, I mean, you know, it comes with the, it comes with the territory where you're always trying to judge things, but most of the time I try to just, you know, d… distance myself. But I think the biggest thing was because, A, I didn't know anything about Oppenheimer other than the guy who built the nuclear bomb, right? That's the only thing, right? But A, for me, was too many characters, too many fast cuts, which was necessary, and it just threw me off, and the music was, as far as I remember, it was there from the beginning till the end, and that threw me off too. And I don't know what it was. It w… I, and I think if I had known about Oppenheimer a bit more, I would have enjoyed it more. Because I know director's life more, and if I... Like, you know, Spielberg made a movie about Fabelmans. I mean, I knew every single thing about that movie that was gonna happen that happened bec… but I enjoyed it, like, I, because I knew it. But if I had not, I wonder if I had.

10:49Jawad MirAnd it was very technical too, and then that, you know, there are some scenes... Well, Jason Clarke scene you mentioned. I mean, I thought he had the most hardest role sitting in that chair for the entire freaking film. Like, his entire, all of his scenes were in that room. And then they would o… have all these things that come out of nowhere, you know, nudity and all that, and that just threw me off. I'm like, "What is going on?" So it was a combination of things, and I think maybe I was not in the right space of mind at the time, and not knowing about Oppenheimer at all, maybe that did it.

11:18Jada YuanYeah. Then, and then when you watched it again, did you only appreciate it or do you like it?

11:25Jawad MirI liked it, and I think it's similar what happened with me on 2001: Space Odyssey. You know, when the first time you see it you're like, "Holy crap." You know, because if I had, if I had seen it in 1969, I would have appreciated it way more because of the, even the visual effects and the sound design for today is really up there, right? But it was, like, dragging, and then I saw it second time. I'm like, "Okay." I'm like, I'm wondering what is, why is everybody talking about this film? And it took me five viewings to understand that film to a certain degree. So I think it's about that value of something that you appreciate after multiple view… viewings, and it ha… It's, that's called timeless, right? And if you like something the first time, like if you go watch Independence Day and you're like, "Holy crap," you know, it has such visual effects, but then who remembers the characters? You don't. So I think that's what you just said too, the timeless thing, you, 'cause you remember those kind of things, more.

12:20Jada YuanIf I'm, if I'm like Nolan newbies, I'm able to watch again and again and sort of appreciate them and like find new things that I like and that... Or that I forgot the first time.

12:29Jawad MirYeah.

12:30Jada YuanAnd I, and I really appreciate that. I think, well, Mulholland Drive is another movie that I sort of re-appreciated a lo… like I really liked it when I first saw it, but it... I still can watch that movie again and again and sort of re-appreciate it. And, The Last Picture Show is sort of my favorite movie of all time, and, that one, it's always interesting to me. Like, it's always,.. I just remember showing it to a friend in college and she was like, "I never know what's gonna happen in this movie." She's just like, "I never..." She's like, "I think something's gonna happen, and then something completely different happens. It's always, like, completely surprising."

13:07Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, that's so true. Tell me how... L… l… let's talk about the book a little bit. I mean, you kind of already gave me the answer about the context how you got onto it. Obviously, that def… you know, that's the answer that you probably got commissioned and you showed interest because of that personal connection.

13:24Jawad MirBut when you, when did you start writing the…

13:26Jada YuanOpposite.

13:27Jawad MirSo, oh, it was the opposite?

13:29Jada YuanSee, well, it was... I mean, they didn't know about me.

13:30Jawad MirThey didn't.

13:30Jada YuanLike, Christopher Nolan doesn't know. Didn't... He had no idea who I was. I was,.. It was really through Los Alamos, basically. I have a friend at the Post who is from Los Alamos also. And, you know, it's a small, it's a small town. I don't really know him that well, but he, started sending me emails, and he was like, "Are you writing about Oppenheimer?" And I mean, the announcement had gone out, and I was actually working as a political reporter at the Post, so I wasn't actually paying that much attention to movie news at the time. So I had missed... I, maybe I'd heard it, but I missed it, the notice that Chris, Christopher Nolan, was working on this movie. And, this guy Lee just kept sending me messages. He's like, "Hey, they keep like knocking on my parents' door and asking if they could shoot on their, you know... Can they look at their house?" His parents lived on Bathtub Row, which is, where all the scientists lived in Los Alamos. Oppenheimer's house is on Bathtub Row.

14:32Jada YuanAnd he's like, "You should, you should go and write about this for the Post." And I was sort of in a position where I was a political writer, but, I'd worked in culture, and I was hoping to get back to that. And so I wrote a letter to them being like, "You know, way down in the future, a year from now can I write a story? Can I go on set now, but like I'll hold it, and I'll, I'll write the story a year from now, and like you have my absolute word. Also, if you're doing anything else about the making of the movie, I'd love to be involved. And here's my backstory. You know, I'm, I grew up in Los Alamos. My dad is a physicist there. My grandmother worked on the Manhattan Project. She knew Oppenheimer." And I sent this letter and sort of... They'd already started production, and I didn't hear back. And, but I went to Los Alamos, and I talked to a historical society person, or, I guess it was the town liaison with the film. And they're like, "Well, you know, they're shooting outside on these days."

15:32Jada YuanSo, like, so they let me sort of walk around where they were prepping the sets. So the sets were places that I knew from my youth. Like, there's a big lodge where they do the Christmas scene party. That is Fuller Lodge. That's what... Like, a giant log cabin that's sort of at the center of town. And we had... Like, I had a graduation party there. You know, there's various things. Like, all of these places were places that I knew. And so I knew what day they were shooting, and I just came back to Los Alamos, and I snuck around in the bushes. I sort of watched them film some things. I, you know, there were maybe 200 other people who were watching. Like, there's a scene where Cillian, gives a speech in front of Fuller Lodge, and there are all these flags.

16:17Jada YuanWhich is the end of his, of Oppenheimer's time in Los Alamos. And so like 200 people were, like, outside sort of, may… maybe not even that many, like taking photos. This is a rare Christopher Nolan project in which I don't think they could really hide as much…

16:32Jawad MirYeah

16:32Jada Yuan... As they normally do.

16:33Jawad MirIt's history, right?

16:35Jada YuanYeah, it's history. I mean, I mean, like, look, in Chicago, you can't hide that you're blowing up like an old factory. Like, in The Dark Knight trilogy…

16:43Jawad MirYeah

16:43Jada Yuan... You can't, you can't hide certain things that are really huge. But they were shooting on location at Berkeley and at UCLA and in Los Alamos, and you can't really, you can't really just hide that. It's like a giant film production that's coming into these places. Like, and college kids know how to use the internet. And so there were, there were Instagrams. There were, like…

17:06Jawad MirRight

17:06Jada Yuan... Sneaky shots. But yeah, so I stuck around, and I... My parents came up, and we sort of had a fun day together, and we... You know, you could like sneak onto the vintage Army trucks and things like that. And then it wasn't until months and months and months later that I heard that, Emma Thomas, who is Chris's

17:26Jawad MirYeah

17:26Jada Yuan... Wife and also his producer, reached out to me, and she said, "Would you like to do this making of book?" And I said... I had to think about it 'cause it's, it's actually a lot of work for not that much, pay.

17:36Jawad MirRight.

17:37Jada YuanBut it was really like an important journey for me to go on in terms of, like, learning about my grandmother's history and also w… I, you know, I have relationships from this book that are just really important to me now, just from all the people I spoke to. I especially, like, love Ruth De Jong, the production designer. She's, she's sort of a buddy. I really love her.

18:01Jawad MirThat is so cool. I'm just so thrilled that we're talking about this more than the book, which is fine because, again, it's just those personal things, right? Like, that's what defines us.

18:12Jada YuanYeah

18:12Jawad Mir... And I mean, you were... It's not something that you were expecting to happen, and then you kind of just... Yeah, it's, it's, it's amazing. It's awesome. And Emma Thomas had read your letter?

18:24Jada YuanShe read my letter.

18:25Jawad MirYes.

18:26Jada YuanYeah.

18:26Jawad MirYeah.

18:26Jada YuanShe read the letter and... I mean, I gave it to Christopher's, personal publicist, Kelly Bush Novak. So Kelly is really the person who made the connection. But, yeah, so she read it and she asked if I would work on this. And the process is mainly, you know, they'd finished production. So I... But I was lucky enough that I sort of initially did that, did some scouting on my own. So I actually had a sense of what it, what it was like, and I know all the places. Y… yeah, I think it's, it's different. Most of these making-of books are done by guys. I actually don't know any women who do them, who do this for a living. Like they…

19:11Jada Yuan... They just write book after book after book about movies. And, I actually knew, like, the vast majority of places that they were filming about. And I knew,.. I learned a lot from reading American Prometheus, which is the book, the biography of Oppenheimer that the book is based on, and it's a great…

19:27Jawad MirRight.

19:28Jada YuanHave you... I don't know if you've read it. It's, it's a great…

19:30Jawad MirI haven't, I haven't. Yeah.

19:32Jada YuanYeah. Maybe read American Prometheus and you'll

19:37Jawad MirI will

19:37Jada Yuan... You'll like... But it's, it's, it's a really cool,.. Yeah. Anyway, I knew most of the places, so I had, like, a shorthand, that was maybe easier than, someone who hadn't, like, been to Abiquiu, which is where they... They built, they built a 1940s set in…

20:00Jawad MirYeah

20:00Jada Yuan... On a mesa in Abiquiu.

20:03Jawad MirRight

20:03Jada Yuan... And I know that area. So I just, I just knew a lot going in.

20:10Jawad MirThat is awesome. Did you... What were some of the challenges that you faced when you were writing the book? O… obviously one ti… is time, right? Because the production's already finished and everything, and trying to get a hang… hold of people, access, which I'm sure y… wasn't that difficult considering Emma Thomas had written you back. Talk to me about that, if you don't mind.

20:30Jada YuanYeah. I mean, I think the... There were, there were a few things. I think even with the access, it was still hard to schedule certain people. Like, Hoyte is like a ghost in the night. Hoyte van Hoytema is my white whale of an interview. And, I was writing it, I was doing the interviews sort of backwards. Christopher Nolan is the most important person, but his time is limited and he's a very efficient person. And so I was... He prefers, and which I totally respect, for you to do, to talk to everyone first and get all the information you need, and then he fills in the gaps of what you need. So I was basically writing with placeholders, just hoping that I would get Chris…

21:23Jawad MirSure

21:23Jada Yuan... To give me the quote that I need to replace this other quote from this other person. That kind of, that kind of stuff.

21:29Jawad MirYeah.

21:29Jada YuanThere were, there were like little... It was almost investig… like an investigation on some, on some level.

21:36Jawad MirYeah

21:36Jada Yuan... And then, you know, the script is a precious resource. Most actors don't even get a copy of the script. I think there were, like, five or seven…

21:45Jawad MirRight

21:46Jada Yuan... Actors who had an actual copy of the script. Even the casting director didn't have a copy of the script. And so I... The first stage of this, of writing this, was I went into an office and I read the script, which is of course, like, printed out on red with, like, special markers…

22:03Jawad MirI was gonna say, yeah

22:04Jada Yuan... So they know. Yeah. And I had, like, three hours. They allowed me to take notes, and then I never saw the script again. So I... It was basically like I was basing everything on that, like, three-hour note session that I was taking. And then, and then later on I had the same thing with photographs where, I was basing most of the stuff that happened, on the pr… in the production on, like, this very long session that I had at Universal of just looking at photographs and taking notes on them and being like, not knowing which ones were gonna go in the book. Just sort of being like, "Okay, this is what this thing looks like. Okay, now I have it in my head and I can write about it." but and then ev… eventually I did end up, like, on a Christmas break, I, they let me, sort of be in contact with Ghost Ranch and I went to, go see what was, what remained of the set, which is a large portion of the set, is still, is still there, and I think they're gonna... Part of the deal with Ghost Ranch, Ghost Ranch is, the place in Abiquiu, New Mexico…

23:09Jada Yuan... Where Georgia O'Keeffe, sort of famously did all her paintings. And there's, a spiritual retreat that is well-frequented by locals, and anyone who visits, you can stay there. And then this was built sort of across the road on a different mesa that had never been used before. And I think they're leaving a lot of it intact for anyone el… else who wants to shoot, like, a Western film. And also... So they removed anything that was sort of very, that screamed Los Alamos National Laboratory. And they also... And Manhattan Project. And they also, I think maybe you can do a wedding there. So.

23:50Jada YuanYeah. But also I would say sound and score, things that I wasn't hearing at the time. Like having to call Ludwig Göransson, Oscar winner, like up in the middle of the night and be like, "Hey, Ludwig, can you, like, explain to me how you created a sound that I haven't heard yet, and, like, how you created these songs?" that was a lot of what I was doing, was like, "Can you just, like, describe a thing to me?"

24:20Jawad MirWow

24:20Jada Yuan... But he was great. He was great.

24:22Jawad MirYeah. It's interesting you talked about… You know, and rightfully so because of his time. You know, he wanted, Christopher Nolan wanted you to interview everybody else and then him at the end. That must be really hard because I know, when I've made feature documentaries, I… the right way to start is start with the protagonist and figure out what his or her story is, and then you kind of figure out where it's going, and you speak to the people that are connected to that. So that must have been interesting going the reverse way. Was it easy or was it challenging?

24:55Jada YuanIt's challenging, but it's something I've done before as someone who writes profiles of famous people. You know, I sort of, I went through this with, like, a profile I did of Jon Stewart fairly recently, which was, which was just like, it's a profile of Jon Stewart and, we just c… I just couldn't get it scheduled until, you know, a week before it needed to be turned in. And so we were on that kind of deadline crunch. What do you do when you have three weeks before your main subject is willing to speak to you? You have to just go and do all your secondary interviews…

25:31Jawad MirYeah

25:31Jada Yuan... Afterwards. Do your secondaries interviews ahead of time. And I felt bad because I ended up, I was like so nervous I wasn't gonna get Jon Stewart that I did, like, 20 interviews.

25:44Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

25:44Jada YuanAnd half of these famous people, like, are on the cutting room floor. I feel, I feel very sorry to Jimmy Kimmel, like... But, so that was sort of, I think prepared me for what was happening with Christopher, and there was, there was so much that I needed to, understand about how this thing was put together that it was, it was helpful to talk to a lot of people like the production designer, the costume designer, ahead of time.

26:16Jawad MirYeah. I mean, now, I mean, it's, it's nominated for, what, 11 or 13 Academy Awards? I forget.

26:22Jada Yuan13. 13.

26:23Jawad Mir13.

26:24Jada YuanYeah.

26:24Jawad MirWhich is, I think, the highest, ever has been. I think it's been, it was Ben-Hur and Titanic. I think. I could be wrong. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's amazing that you're... I mean, it… it's something personal at the same time to be attached to something like that. Must be really cool. You must be proud of it.

26:45Jada YuanYeah. I mean, I mean, I didn't have anything to do with the making of the movie itself, but…

26:49Jawad MirI get it. I get it. But still. But still.

26:53Jada YuanNo, I mean, the ride has been really thrilling, I think. It's, it's... I've, I've never been involved in something like this. Usually, I'm sort of just observing and writing about movies, so I have moved from politics back to culture. And I'm writing about movies again. And, you know, I... I'm rooting for, like, a lot of movies at the Oscars, but I also, I feel like I really appreciate all the effort that went into Oppenheimer and knowing, just the sheer amount of effort. I'm, I'm actually, like, really sad for the visual effects team because they weren't shortlisted, and I mean, neither was Ferrari, and I think that both of those movies have really incredible effects, but they're practical effects, and they're not really appreciated by…

27:44Jawad MirYeah

27:44Jada Yuan... That branch of the... I don't know, I don't know what it is, but, like, it's, it's like if you don't use computer graphics, then you're, you don't, your visual effects are seen as sort of lesser than. And I thought that was one of the more fascinating things that, happened in the movie…

28:01Jawad MirYeah

28:01Jada Yuan... Which was... Yeah. It, they're very s… I mean, they're s… they're small, and they're subtle, but, like, every single one of the abstract sort of physics visions that are happening were made by, like, real devices, not real…

28:14Jawad MirYeah.

28:14Jada YuanYeah, I thought that was fascinating.

28:16Jawad MirI mean, Acade… Academy in Hollywood works in a strange way because the way it should be is how did the visual effects, production design, art direction help facilitate to tell the story better than it could've been, right? I think that's... And I don't know why they don't see that because there's a lot of times throughout the Academy history, at least since I've been following, since the mid…'90s, early '90s, is there's a lot of films that get overlooked for whatever reason, right? Like, I mean, it's just, it's just sad, and I, Nolan is one of the rare filmmakers. I mean, even to, for me, even, like, Mission Impossible, I don't know if it got nominated for, any visual effects. Like, just Tom Cruise jumping off that thing was like, you know, a b… it's not like a visual effect, but still the fact that he did it was a huge thing and, but it doesn't really get recognized unless it's, like, computer effects. Yeah, so I don't know how they work. I mean, they have their own thing going on.

29:10Jada YuanHave you s… have you seen Ferrari?

29:12Jawad MirI have to s… I have to see that. I haven't seen that yet. I have, I'm gonna see that this weekend.

29:16Jada YuanI mean, the car, the car wrecks are all practical and you're, you're just like, "I can't, I can't even believe the..." I mean, they're shocking. And you're like, "I can't believe that wasn't recognized." But yeah. I mean, there's, it's the same thing with, you know, people getting upset about who got nominated for director and who got nominated for... There are five slots, so you know. And I'm okay with Godzilla Minus One taking one of those slots.

29:40Jawad MirYeah. But I think Op… I think Oppenheimer, aside from a story of a man who built a nuclear bomb, I do think all those things, it's a great art, you know, film and everything. It's some technical achievement and all that. I think one of the reasons it's ver… it's getting recognition, it's very timely. More timely it is now than even when it came out. So you know, I actually f… I was talking to my colleague. I'm like, "You know, Oppenheimer's gonna sweep the Oscars," even if nobody thinks it's a great movie because the timing is just, we're just living at that point now where that can happen again any second, sadly. So…

30:19Jada YuanThat's…

30:19Jawad Mir... It, that's what's going on its favor, you know, whether we, it's a good thing or not.

30:25Jada YuanYeah, I don't think it's a good thing to smile about it.

30:27Jawad MirI'm just saying.

30:29Jada YuanI mean, conversation is a good thing. I think the conversation…

30:32Jawad MirYeah

30:32Jada Yuan... Of, over sort of what we brought with nuclear weapons and whether or not they can ever... You know, we, you know, we have this whole arsenal of things that, like, the whole point is, like, we're never gonna use them, but also, if we did use a single one of them, it would start to destroy the world. But I... And it's, it's something that, you know, growing up in Los Alamos, I obviously, like, we've just thought, I've thought about nuclear weapons my whole life and like, and like the fact that we just have a giant, bunker of them underneath, you know, the town where…

31:01Jawad MirYeah

31:01Jada Yuan... I lived. That was sort of a joke when we were growing up was, "Oh, do you glow at night?" that sort of thing. "Is everyone there green?"

31:10Jawad MirYeah.

31:10Jada YuanYeah. But, it, the, one of the interesting things was that, production actually started, and then two days later, Russia invaded Ukraine. So they were…

31:21Jawad MirOh.

31:22Jada YuanSo they were filming this right, as, you know... A… and I think, like, a few days later, Putin started threatening the use of their nuclear arsenal. And so they were f… they were filming that, this in the f… in the shadow of that threat. And Nolan had said that, one of his sons had been like, "Well, Dad,.." I don't know that this is, like, a, an incredibly relevant story for people of my age. You know, Christopher Nolan comes from the age where I think maybe they did nuclear bomb drills. He's, you know…

32:00Jawad MirYeah

32:00Jada Yuan... Probably in our age range. And then, I don't remember nuclear bomb drills. But he was living in England at the time and, in Chicago. And then I think the news of Ukraine sort of made his son sort of realize why it was, it was important. And then it's just funny 'cause now we're not even really talking about that war as much. But we're talking about another war that's happening that is also…

32:28Jawad MirYeah

32:28Jada Yuan... Equally terrifying and horrible.

32:32Jawad MirYeah. And I think the thing with nuclear bombs is, right, the conversation, the question is that, is it better to have, better for every nation to have a nuclear bomb, or is it better to have, you know, one nuc… one or two because the, do they keep each other in check? It's an interesting conversation, right? I mean, I believe the latter, but at the same time, having all of them have nuclear bombs is not a good thing at the same time. Like, it's just, you just don't know who will, you know, make that one second of a mistake in that state of mind, and then the rest is history, right? We're all done.

33:07Jada YuanYeah. Yeah.

33:07Jawad MirI think it was, I think it was Einstein who said that or Stephen Hawking, that, "I don't know how we will fight the second wor… Third World War, but the fourth one will be fought with sticks…" "... Because nothing will be left."

33:19Jada YuanNothing will be left.

33:21Jawad MirYeah.

33:21Jada YuanThat's amazing. I don't know that quote, but that's an amazing quote. I, yeah, I,.. W… when you read Amer… American Prometheus, one of the, sort of the things that got Oppenheimer in trouble with politicians was that he was talking about the United Nations, but also sort of wanting, sort of a conglomerate of companies cooperating with each other and sharing nuclear secrets, so that everybody could be on even… an even playing field, and it was not looked upon at all in a good light from all the hawkish people. I mean, you sort of see that in the scene…

34:02Jawad MirYeah

34:02Jada Yuan... About the H bomb, you know. Like, the H bomb is sort of a, it is a product of America wanting to be, have the bigger, better weapon than everybody else.

34:17Jawad MirYeah. And I think that's the thing, right? Like, you know, you hear Putin or whoever else saying that on that side, and I do feel, you know, there is also a good chunk of people i… in our part of the hemisphere, like, you know, in Canada, but m… probably not as much in Canada, but mostly in the US, there's selective people who want that because whether it's power or whether it's, you know, arm sales, I don't know, whatever that is, and it's, it's, it's a really scary thing because everybody's kind of speaking in a very passionate, way just to kind of, like, the idea of defending themselves, and then there's nothing to defend afterwards, right, if you start. So it's, it's... I… it's a, it's a certain group of people that always want... I mean, have you seen that movie Lord of War with Nicolas Cage?

35:05Jada YuanI would…

35:07Jawad MirH… sorry, have you?

35:09Jada YuanNo.

35:09Jawad MirOh, you have to see that movie.

35:11Jada YuanOkay.

35:11Jawad MirIt's literally... He plays an arms dealer. That's all I'll tell you. And the way that movie starts and the way that movie ends, it makes you wonder, holy crap. It's, it's one of the most amazing movies you'll see. It's an in… incredible film.

35:26Jada YuanGreat. Great. On my list.

35:28Jawad MirYeah. I just wanted to ask you one last question.

35:32Jada YuanSure.

35:34Jawad MirKind of going back to your grandma, has, are you discovering more about who you are and because of now that you're doing all this research, I think you said right in the beginning, and what's your end goal? Like, what are you trying to discover by going, learning more about all this, kind of like a follow-up to your book, Oppenheimer, the Unleashing Oppenheimer: The Making Of, but how is that gonna serve you in terms of your, you know, doing all this re… research, whether it's a connection with your grandma or discovering who you are. W… what's your end goal with this?

36:10Jada YuanOh, I don't totally know. I mean, I know that I want to tell the story of my, of my family, of these Chinese Americans, you know, who sort of left in the middle of, right before… The Japanese were invading China and were never able to come back because of Mao and all of these things. So it's sort of... My family is sort of as involved as many other Chinese families were in world history, and it just sort of has this extra prong where what they were involved in the United States was also, like, a giant portion of world history. And I think that, I'm just interested in telling that story, like an imi… like an immigrant story, that is caught up in the sweep of Chinese history. Because I don't feel like we hear that many stories about Asian Americans. And especially, like, an Asian American woman who was at the, at the seat of, like, who was involved with everyone at the seat of power, during World War II and then beyond.

37:20Jada YuanI mean, she did an experiment that the men she worked with won the Nobel Prize on. So it was just a sort of typical story, right? Like, I mean, I mean, you know, women have... I think maybe four women have won the Nobel Prize in physics at this point, and three of them have been since, like, 2018. So it... I could be wrong. It could be two since 2018. Don't quote me on this. Although we're on YouTube, so

37:48Jawad MirYeah

37:48Jada Yuan... I don't have my stats totally, in my pocket. But, yeah, I'm just, I'm interested in telling that story. I'm, I... And I'm interested in learning about my family's history. It's always been sort of a thing that I've read through other people, and I think that I'm interested in the journey, of researching it myself. Like, that's, that's sort of an important part of it because I felt like I learned so much from doing all the research for this book, which is, you know, happened in a fraction of the timeframe that a, that a different book would happen. And just in, sort of a practical sense, the stories that I'm writing for the Washington Post now, I think on movies are, like, way informed from the fact that I know so much more about how ma… how movies are made. And I want to, I sort, I sort of wanna start a campaign. There's so many of us film writers who don't actually get to go on set, who don't have, like, experience behind the camera or don't have experience working with actors.

38:50Jada YuanAnd I sort of, if I'm gonna continue writing about film, I want to actually, like, touch it. I want to be in the room, as it's being made 'cause I do think there's, like, a siloing that happens. And, like, how can you really accurately write about movies, even if you're just learning from them, you know, you go to a film class at NYU and you watch a bunch of movies and, like, that is all part of the education. But, like, really, like, being in the muck of making things, I think is, important. And I think it's just sort of started that thirst for me to actually be around the process even though it is incredibly boring. I've been on movie sets. Like, there's a lot of starting and stopping.

39:34Jawad MirYeah. Well, when you compare it to a film, a finished product, yeah, I mean, it is. But, you know, having what you just said, you can learn something in film school, you can learn something in wa… by watching movies. But whether it's a small set, a big set, a feature narrative, a feature documentary, whatever, you learn so much on the set. I mean, I think the biggest thing that you learn is just the idea of being on your toes all the time and, you know, I... Like, just being a ninja with eyes in the back of your head and thinking about 20,000 things without thinking about them. And that's something that you learn very quickly. And when you learn that, I think everything... I… this is just my view. At least for me, it works. Y… when you learn to figure out that skill, everything else that you would learn will become a little bit easier because you know how to kind of just manage everything, at least as a director. That's what I feel. But I would be... How old is your grandma, if you don't mind me asking?

40:33Jada YuanShe passed. She passed when I was…

40:35Jawad MirOh, she passed. Okay.

40:36Jada YuanYeah, she passed when I was, 19.

40:40Jawad MirI would love…

40:40Jada YuanSo a while ago

40:40Jawad Mir... To read more about her. Is there some material?

40:43Jada YuanI would too. It's, it's sad because I wish I'd had this urge, you know, 20 years ago, when more people were alive to be able to talk about her. But you work with what you have.

40:59Jawad MirIs there any archival footage in, like, some libraries of some oral interview of her or her colleagues? Or have you discovered anything like that?

41:07Jada YuanYeah. I mean, I think finding her colleagues is gonna be really hard. Like, they're, they're all almost 100 years old if they're still alive.

41:14Jawad MirYeah

41:14Jada Yuan... But the,.. Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, it's interesting. It... Like, she had kids older, like my parents had kids older, so we're... It's sort of, I think it's gonna be sort of an interesting thing, just in general with how much older people are having kids. Like, go… when you finally get old enough to be able to look back at your, at your family history, like, will…

41:39Jawad MirYeah

41:39Jada Yuan... You know, will people be around to tell you the story? And how can we encourage people to... So that's almost, that's a little bit of what I want to try to get at if, when I, when I write about her and when I wrote this article about the Wash… for the Washington Post. It's, it's like start inquiring sooner. Start recording your parents. Like, interview your, interview your family as soon as you possibly can and just try to get as much information on the record, like, in a video camera, on your phone. Like, whatever you can to try to document your family. So that's, that's part of it. What was the question? It was about, are there archival... There are so much ar… like, archival stuff because she's incredibly famous in China. There are museums dedicated to her. There's, you know, Columbia has a whole set of archives, which is where she taught at Columbia University in New York. She also taught at Princeton. So there are archives. There is a woman who's trying to write a biography of her, and, we're maybe cooperating or maybe we're racing against each other, I don't know.

42:45Jada YuanAt this point. But, there's plenty of written material. It's just sort of like being able to capture the person. And who is a person who is, who is sort of fixed in my memory and also faded from my memory.

43:01Jawad MirYeah

43:01Jada Yuan... You know.

43:02Jawad MirNo, I get that. And I…

43:03Jada YuanAnd we were talking about dads, right? Like, my dad is, like, really hard to talk to about this.

43:08Jawad MirYeah. Like, my dad served 30 years in the military, and to this day, I… he fought two wars, never talked about them. Never ta… And that's the thing with a lot of veterans, like, even here. Like, people just don't like to revisit that, and I understand that. Like, anything like that, like, even if you had... Like, if you, even if you were not in the military and you have some sort of traumatic experience, you just don't wanna revisit it because it will just bring back a can of worms with it that you probably would not be able to get rid of.

43:38Jada YuanYeah.

43:38Jawad MirIt's been, this has been awesome. It's probably one of my best conversations after…

43:41Jada YuanAh

43:42Jawad Mir... Like, over 100 episodes. It's just become... It was very different because it was very personal. Like, you just kinda dived into something that, you know, a lot of people don't, and I really appreciated that. And I... My appreciation for this film has kinda gone up now because of this conversation. So I'm gonna watch it again and I'm gonna read that book. What was it called? The one with

44:03Jada YuanCrichton is the biography…

44:06Jawad MirYeah

44:06Jada Yuan... That it's based on. And, yeah, I'm always curious once people have read The Unleashing Oppenheimer book, which is, it's funny 'cause there's only, like, really the personal author's note and then everything. So I feel like most of my family and friends have not even read the entire book. They read the f… the author's note and then they, like, got a signed copy and then they're, like, happy to have it on their shelf or whatever. But I think, it's interesting for me to sort of hear people who read about, like, how the thing…

44:32Jawad MirYeah

44:32Jada Yuan... Was made, and then they go back and watch it, and see if…

44:36Jawad MirYou appreciate it more. You appreciate it more.

44:39Jada YuanY… Well, 'cause people told me they thought... Some people told me they thought the special effects, they didn't really like those, sort of physics special effects. And then I told them…

44:47Jawad MirYeah

44:47Jada Yuan... How they were made, and then they were like, "Oh, now I'm gonna watch it again and I'm gonna like it."

44:51Jawad MirYeah. I think one thing I'll say, not just this book, but all these books that I have here, and I think the problem with a lot of these publishers, in my view, is that the font is so puny that, you know, especially people who are in their 40s and onwards, they really have a hard time, reading that. And which is why every time I try to read this now, I request a PDF so I can just watch it on my, you know, read it on my iPad and just zoom in. I just wish there was another way because these are great books visually and great stories, but I think for the older generation, it becomes a little bit difficult to read, you know, such small font. But that's just the way it is. I understand that and I respect that.

45:33Jada YuanWell, also, this one is, I think, longer than any of the other ones…

45:36Jawad MirYeah

45:36Jada Yuan... They've done. And we were trying to squeeze a lot of information into.

45:42Jawad MirYeah.

45:42Jada YuanSo that, and that's the, that's the hazard of hiring someone who actually, like, cares about the material so much.

45:47Jawad MirYeah, 100%.

45:48Jada YuanSo you actually get a lot more book. Yeah. So I think we were trying to squeeze a lot, and then there's just giant pictures. It's giant pictures and tiny words.

45:56Jawad MirWhich is awesome. Which is awesome. Listen, Jada, this has been great. Let's talk more

46:02Jada YuanPlease

46:02Jawad Mir... Like chat, and then, we'll just take it one day at a time. Thank you so much…

46:06Jada YuanAll right

46:06Jawad Mir... For coming on. I appreciate it.

46:07Jada YuanYeah. Thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it.

46:10Jawad MirPleasure. Take care. Bye-bye.

46:13Jada YuanBye.

46:13Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.