'Dead Man Walking', Composer, David Robbins

0:05Jawad MirI've been a huge, fan of Dead Man Walking, the film itself, and obviously the music. And, it's good to have, you here, and just being part of something that... I mean, I know you feel very important towards it, and certainly for me too, so it's gonna be exciting.

0:22David RobbinsYeah. Yeah. I'm,.. It was, one of the real special experiences of my life, you know? It was quite unique and, transcending, as they say.

0:40Jawad MirI'm, I'm sure. But before we get to that, David, I just sort of wanna get some context about who you are…

0:47David RobbinsOkay

0:47Jawad Mir... And, like, how your, how your career started. I mean, you and your brother both are, you know, one is an actor, and he directed this film, and then you're into music. How did your journey start into the world of music?

1:02David RobbinsWell, we all grew up in a musical family, from, as old as we could, remember. Our dad was a professional musician. He was, Gil Robbins, who was a folk singer and a prof… before that, professional, studio percussionist. And, he... We all packed up and moved to New York when I was about six. Lived in the Village, and he joined up with Tom Paxton, and had a good run with him. And, he also did some work, did a tour with, the Harry Belafonte Singers, and then he joined The Highwaymen. And, he did their last five albums with them, and, toured and, you know, made a... You know, he was a good figure in the, in the community, you know, the folk community.

2:06David RobbinsHe was a fairly prominent figure. And, of course, you know, the immersion of all that, being in that, in the Village, with all these musicians. It was just bustling with musicians. You know, everybody from, you know, Dave Van Ronk, Dave Van Ronk to, John Hammond to, all of the people that started small and became big. You know, I mean, y… we saw them all. I mean, it was like... And live, you know? I mean, Pete Seeger was, close to my dad and, there was just a lot of that happening. I mean, there were so many clubs too that were playing music live. You could hear them out the windows, you know, through the doors as you walk down MacDougal Street or Bleecker Street. And, it was, it was quite a time. Our mother was a singer as well.

3:07David RobbinsShe normally sang in choral groups. She sang with the DeCormier Singers. She also sang with, this, choral group that our dad, Gil, put together after he, you know, finished with folk music. He wanted to explore choral music, and he, put a group c… together called The Occasional Singers of New York. And, they did, concerts and it was all kind of like 20th century modern choral music, you know? So sometimes a bit angular, but it was, it was good. He was very good at it. And

3:53Jawad MirThat's…

3:53David Robbins... That's, that's basically how it happened. And, you know, me personally, you know, my dad bought me a, an acoustic guitar, when I was, maybe 10, 9, something like that, and, I didn't take to it right away. I wasn't a very good,.. I didn't wanna learn the,.. I didn't have too much interest at first, and then rock and roll hit and, you know, it was all over from there, you know? I remember for the first time hearing, "Devil with the Blue Dress," you know, Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels, and that guitar, you know, just sent me. And I said, "I gotta learn how to play that." And so my habit was always buying albums, constantly buying albums whenever I could get my hand on a, on a buck or two, and learn the riffs, learn the chords.

4:56David RobbinsThat's how I learned how to play. And, that's what I wanted to do with my life, you know? And, so that's, that's how it kind of all started.

5:10Jawad MirRight. That's, you know, that's obv… A lot of times, you know, so… some stories people always wanna do something they wanna do, and they end up doing it. But, you know, I've also been hearing a lot of stories when I talk to people, on this podcast how sometimes things just happen accidentally, and then they take you to a place where you never imagined, and that becomes your happy place, right, and you're always... And that's seems to be the case of you, with you as well, is, like, rock and roll really changed everything.

5:40David RobbinsYeah.

5:41Jawad MirLike

5:41David RobbinsAnd it didn't end there either. You know, I mean, rock and roll was my first love, and, I desperately wanted to put... You know, have ba… a band and get it, you know, get it signed and g… make a deal and make a record and go play. And I've ha… I was in several bands over the years, my teenage years and, 20s, where I came close… You know, we came close, but something happened that it all fell apart. You know, it was this guy or that guy or the manager or whatever and or timing, you know, kismet. I don't know. But, I had, at… in the early eighties, I had kind of had it at the moment with that, and I was looking for something else to do. And my brother was out here. You know, we… I lived out here, but I went to New York for three years to join this last band that I was in. And, I came back here with my wife, and, we… but Tim invited me to come see a show that he was doing with, this new group that he had, the Actors Gang.

6:56David RobbinsAnd, the first one I saw was, the first one that they did, that he was still in college at the time. And this group of guy… kids, you know, college kids, from the theater department, got together, and they did a production of Ubu the King. And this was like…

7:17David Robbins... Forty years ago, right? And, the Actors Gang was born at that point, and it's still together. And, but basically what happened is that I said, "I wanna do that. You know, I wanna play. I wanna learn how to play music for theater." And

7:38Jawad MirYeah

7:38David Robbins... He invited me to come, and the first one I did was an original. And, I found out I was good at it. You know, I just… It's a lot of improv. The style was the Commedia dell'arte, and, the style was very in your face and, socially relevant, exciting and, funny as hell. And, I wa… you know, I wanted to do that, you know, and I, and I did it. And then, you know, I was never looking to score movies ever. It was not on my radar, right? And, we were doing a play, I guess it was around nineteen ninety, eighty-nine or ninety. And, I was just in the office. I was talking with Tim and a few others, and we were putting together some sort of, like, a little fun drive to get some funds for the gang.

8:45David RobbinsAnd ... And it was at his agent's office. And, she said that, you know, "Would you… do you wanna go up for a movie?" I said, "I don't know. What is it?" She said, "Well, this guy, Robert Downey Senior is making a movie, right? And, he's looking for somebody. His normal, composer wasn't available to do it, so." I said, "Sure." And I met with him and, played him some stuff I had. I had not done a movie. You know, I'd done some theater stuff and I had some of that recorded and, he hired me. And I ended up doing a jazz score, a jazz trio. And I put together this band and wrote some, music. I had John Densmore playing drums. I had, Don Preston from Mothers of Invention, playing, keyboards, and a friend of mine who was an excellent bass player who was playing at the gang.

9:53David RobbinsHe joined in and, recorded this thing, and, it turned out really good. Everybody liked it. You know, the movie was nothing to write home about, but that got me started. And, then Tim had the opportunity to make a movie, and, we did Bob Roberts, and we wrote fourteen songs for that, all parody. And, then it just went on from there. I started, you know, found out I was good at it. I learned that I could orchestrate. I learned that I could write with, you know, for orchestra, or I could write jazz, or I could write, other things and, you know, other styles. And a lot of that goes back to my growing up and being around that influence. You know…

10:44Jawad MirRight

10:44David Robbins... Just kind of awakening that innate thing that I found out that I had. And this is all, you know, not… I'm not trained. I'm self-taught and, but have an ear, and I use my ear, and the rest is history, I guess you say.

11:03Jawad MirYeah. And, you know, one of the things that I wanna start talking about Dead Man Walking, but at the same time, I wanted to find out how... I mean, ob… you know, Tim directed the film. How was your… It was just kinda like an obvious thing that had happened on Dead Man Walking because you guys had worked on, Bob Roberts? Or was it… Yeah, what was the process of that like?

11:30David RobbinsWell, you know, th… through the f… the theater work that we had done together, you know, we developed this really good artistic adult relationship, you know. And worked well together. We meshed, and we had the same sensibilities, and so it was a natural…

11:51David Robbins... For me to be involved with it. And, I was with it from pre-production through, you know

11:59Jawad MirOkay. Okay.

12:00David RobbinsAnd, the idea was quickly, even before we shot, we knew the kind of direction we were gonna go in, and that was, a universal approach, not a sec… not a religious approach or, you know, Catholic, you know, being…

12:23Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

12:23David Robbins... Sister Helen. You know, that kind of closed things off, and it just was not right, you know? So we kind of ignored that and went,.. And I basically researched and researched and researched. I listened to all sorts of different things. I,.. You know, Tim had, turned me on to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and, also, God, the Armenian, duduk player, Djivan Gasparyan.

13:07Jawad MirGasparyan. Okay. Okay.

13:09David RobbinsAnd this was immediately apparent. This was kind… it was like a spiritualness to it, but it was more universal. And I, you know, started listening to, European gypsy music and, choirs, Bulgaria, the Baltics, you know, or the, Slavic, stuff, which was oodles of passion and kind of just ingested that during the pre-shoot, I mean, the pre-production, the shoot, and, into post-production.

14:02David RobbinsAnd, it became evident that we wanted to try to get Nusrat, and we didn't know if it was gonna be anywhere near possible. So I... But… ... I started the process through, a woman named Annie Ohanian in New York, who knew, Peter Gabriel…

14:21Jawad MirRight

14:21David Robbins... And had work, worked with her. And through him, we got in touch with Nusrat's people. And, we're now about a month before I'm supposed to go in to record the score, and, lo and behold, hi… he's going to be touring. This is after I booked the studio. He's going to be touring and in New York playing Town Hall, that very week, and he was gonna be in town for when I would need him. And, so we got there, and then that was very exciting. And, so I kinda knew how to, record and arrange the music that he would sing over, right?

15:06Jawad MirRight.

15:08David RobbinsAnd, which was all ready. A lot of it was written, but I was able to tailor it a little more because I knew that I was going to, let him do his stuff. I mean, you don't write notes for him. You don't write melodies really. I mean, but you do, but you let him go.

15:28Jawad MirYeah.

15:29David RobbinsAnd, so anyway, he was very leery given the subject matter because he had been burned before with, his music being used in, Natural Born Killer, and he... So he demanded to see the cut of the film, before he would commit. So he, saw the film and left and didn't know if he was gonna come or not. Eddie had come in town. Tim had invited him in. And, so it ended up, he said he'll do it, and we worked out the particulars. And Eddie came in, and, we had Ry Cooder there to produce Eddie's, song, The Long Road, which he did…

16:31Jawad MirRight

16:31David Robbins... The night before I was in my studio working, and so that was kind of a separate thing. They'd worked on that. And then the next night was, Nusrat and company in to record over the score that I had recorded already. And, Ed… Eddie came too later on in that day, or it was the second day, and, after we had done all of the cues. And I swear to God, it was, it was... I was in the studio, in the control room, and Nusrat a… and his, and his, family were out in the studio mic'd up and started playing the tracks. And he would kind of work it out with him and his, the guy on, I forget his name, that was, on the harmonium. He had his own harmonium as well.

17:29Jawad MirRahat?

17:29David RobbinsNo, Rahat wasn't on the harmonium. It was, Rahat was there.

17:33Jawad MirRahat was there.

17:34David RobbinsHe sang.

17:35Jawad MirI think, his brother, Nusrat's pat… brother was on the harmonium, which is Rahat's dad, unless there was somebody else at the time.

17:42David RobbinsAh, that... Yeah. And then there was also the tabla player, Dildar Hussain, who, was there.

17:49Jawad MirYeah.

17:49David RobbinsAnd, but, you know, the cues, the main body of the cues was basically just Nusrat. And then at the next day, we did,.. We still had to do... Well, let me back up a little bit because the experience of him, of Nusrat singing on my music, and each time, you know, "Do it again," each time it just got better and better and better, and it was just… You know, goosebumps. I mean, just literally it was just like, "Oh my God, this is,.. I can't believe this is happening." I mean, it was, it was unbelievable to me. It was just like a dream. And, it went on that way, and it culminated with this, last cue of the movie, which was the execution, and it's four and a half minutes long.

18:46Jawad MirYeah.

18:46David RobbinsAnd he took this thread that I had written, and just watched the movie and he did about four takes, and it was just... I was in a puddle. It was just…

19:03Jawad MirYeah

19:05David Robbins... It was just amazing. And

19:09Jawad MirOh. Please go on

19:09David Robbins... And then the ne… you know, we still had to do something for the opening of the movie, this whole opening tre… credit or, you know, credits, sequence and, titles and all that. And, so all of us got together in the studio in a circle. It was, Nusrat and his family. It was Eddie, Tim, Ra… Rai and myself. And, Rai's on guitar and I'm on guitar and, Eddie's there singing and, Rahat and, Nusrat sing. And, we, didn't know what to do, and Nusrat said, "Well, let's do this melody that you had in one of your score pieces." This was through his, through his interpreter, his ma… his manager. And, I said, "What's that?" And he said, "This one you call Face, the Face of Love."

20:09David RobbinsIt's actually the original title was called The Possum, and that was the original melody, and it was,.. And he said, "You wrote a double raga, which is rare." I said, "I did?" You know, I had no idea. I mean, I d… I... It's a melody that I struggled to get and I, you know, I spent, you know, days coming up with something, and that…

20:40Jawad MirRight

20:40David Robbins... That's what I came up with. And he said it's a double raga. So he... The way I wrote it was the melody, the five note sequences of the melody start on the downbeat, right, on one. And, he flipped it and made it start on the three and. So it would be like, the way I wrote it was right? And he wrote it…

21:09Jawad MirYeah

21:20David Robbins... One.

21:22Jawad MirRight.

21:22David RobbinsYou know? And so, and what happened is that in English, Tim wrote the lyrics, right, that we ended up with. In, Urdu, Nusrat wrote them, right? And he put it together and we, around the circle, we just started working it out, you know. And, Eddie got the melody going and, you know, and with Nusrat, and they went back and forth as you know from the recording. But, we, had what we thought was it, right? So we rolled tape and, it went on I think for 12 minutes or 10 minutes, 12 minutes, and that was it. That was the take. And

22:17Jawad MirWow

22:18David Robbins... It was perfect. It, there was n… And afterwards, Nusrat says to Eddie, he says, in perfect English, he says, "You have a, you have a very nice voice." And he'd alway… he's been talking and getting translated the whole time, the two days, right? And so it was like the guy finally like chilled and, you know, it was, it was just a perfect... It was just, it was…

22:57Jawad MirYeah

22:58David Robbins... It was just incredible. I'll never forget that. It was just, quite something. And one more thing that I learned out of that whole experience was, and the way w… the music and the score ended up is that, is the power of silence. When to not use music, you know? Because there is a... It makes, when it does happen, especially in that kind of a heavy drama, it makes for, something that has a much better impact. A… and in a way it was, for that movie, it was like here's the time to open up the window and bring in the fresh air so that people have a chance to breathe and to digest what they've just seen. And, so that was in a nutshell basically how it went. It's amazing.

23:59Jawad MirIt... You know, you mentioned about the silence and which is something interesting because I saw it when it came out way, back in '96. Then I saw it maybe 10 years ago, and I saw it again yesterday. And aside from the intro, at least I didn't notice, like, you know, in the introduction you have the song The Face of Love, there was barely any music, if any music at least maybe 30 minutes into the film because it was just building up…... This, you know, the story. And it w… and you don't notice it. And even the most brilliant thing about the music is you don't notice there's music, but you notice there's music. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it was, you know, like how you watch an action film, like, m… music by Hans Zimmer or John Williams, like, you know…

24:48Jawad Mir... Stuff like that. Like, you can, you can engage into it. And this is nothing to say that their music is not good, it's amazing, but with this particular story and the performances and the script and the music, it just synchronized so well that, you know, it was absolutely amazing. And I... So I grew up on Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

25:08Jawad MirAnd, I, he was semi-popular among the old people. Like, when I say old people, I mean, like, 50 plus back in the '80s. And then in the '90, in the '90s, he became very popular with young crowd because he introduced modern elements, modern instruments to his music, and he…

25:28Jawad Mir... He started to become big. And I used to listen to him, and then when I went to see Dead Man Walking, I had no idea that his music was in it. And I'm watching it, in the beginning I'm like, "Holy crap, his songs in the m… his music is in the film." So I had no idea because back then, you know, there was no internet to a level that is now where you can just... You know, there's so much publicity coming out, such and such performer is in there. And his music, hi… his vocals, but at the same time, the entire score that yourself, you know, Tim's lyrics and Bruce Springsteen's song and Eddie, it was just perfect. It was, it…

26:08Jawad MirAgain, yesterday watching it really hit me to the core. And obviously you have to give credit to Tim's direction too with the performance that he got out of Susan Sarandon and, Sean Penn were just…

26:20David RobbinsYeah

26:21Jawad Mir... Amazing. Amazing.

26:22David RobbinsYeah. And he, did a very good job in, writing that script, you know, adapting the book that Sister Helen wrote.

26:36Jawad MirYeah.

26:37David RobbinsAnd he, always, he would constantly be checking with her, say, you know, just going back and forth, make sure that he, you know, he was getting it right. And

26:49Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

26:50David Robbins... Yeah, it was, it's quite something. And, yeah, it,.. Thank you for that. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's always nice, you know, 'cause with doing movies, it's like there's this con… long lag, this delayed gratification of you don't know how, what…

27:13Jawad MirOh, yeah

27:13David Robbins... You know. You don't, you have no idea. And then when you finally get to that, into the theater with people watching it, and it, the shared communal experience of that movie, whatever it is…

27:28Jawad MirYeah

27:29David Robbins... It's just, it, you can feel it and it's, it's, it's worth the wait, you know? It's worth the wait to get, to go through that.

27:38Jawad MirIt is so true. And, you know, I remember when Dead Man Walking was ending and the credits were starting to roll and his m… and the music came in, I told myself that, because at that time, it was 1996, just a couple of years before I had realized that I wanted to be a filmmaker, and I told myself that whenever I make my first feature film, you know, I would, I would have Nusrat's music in it. But lo and behold, you know, he passed away a year later

28:07David RobbinsYeah

28:07Jawad Mir... Or two years later. And

28:09David RobbinsA couple years, yeah

28:10Jawad Mir... And, yeah, and then his nephew now, you know, he was, like, ruling for quite some time in South Asia.

28:18David RobbinsYeah

28:18Jawad Mir... He still does it, but he does concerts. Have you met Rahat recently in the last 10, 15 years or…

28:24David RobbinsWell, we did a concert, a benefit concert, later '90s, after Rah… after, Nusrat had passed away. And, it was to, put all of the people that we could get that had done songs on the, on the soundtrack album.

28:47David RobbinsThe Inspired by album. And, we got, several people that were able to come and including Rahat and Dildar and, his u… his, their uncle. And, it,.. And Eddie came and, we had, let's see, we had, Michelle Shocked came. Good God, I'm testing my memory. Tom Waits came. It's been so long since I thought about this one. But, several of the performers had actually come, and we did this really cool concert night at the sh… at the Shrine. And the, last, performance was Eddie. First he came out solo, did, the song Trouble by Cat Stevens.

29:55David RobbinsAnd then he invited, Nusrat and his family out, and John Densmore was there to play, on a, on a dumbek. And I came out and we did, we did, both, Face of Love and, The Long Road with Rahat ... Singing.

30:25Jawad MirWow.

30:25David RobbinsAnd, it was, it was very nice to do. I mean, it was, it was a great night. It was filmed actually. And they put out a video of it.

30:38Jawad MirAh

30:39David Robbins... It was called Not in Our Name. Actually, that poster there is from it. I don't know…

30:48Jawad MirOh, okay

30:48David Robbins... If you can see it.

30:50Jawad MirA little bit.

30:51David RobbinsYeah.

30:53Jawad MirYeah. One thing... I'm, I'm gonna come back to music in a second. One thing I remember, you know, the whole theme of the film is redemption, right? But at the same time, it's, it's about a guy who has done something horrifically wrong. And I remember at the time, I'm willing to bet even now, maybe before, more than now, more now than before, is that, you know, even if you, when you watch the film and you feel for that character despite the wrong that he had done, because that's what the film was about, it was making you empathize with somebody who had done terribly stuff, wrong stuff, and make you wonder if he's a human or not, make you question that. And I remember I used to have these debates with people after the film, my, you know, my university, and e… almost everybody, with the exception of a few people, thought that he... They didn't get the film. They just did…

31:54Jawad Mir... Not understand what it was trying to do, and all they saw, "Well, he deserved it. He deserved..." Yes, he deserved it, but that's not the f… that's not the film. It was about redemption. And I wonder how that would play nowadays with everything that's going on, if that movie was to be released…

32:10David RobbinsYour…

32:10Jawad Mir... In today's climate.

32:12David RobbinsYour guess is as good as mine with that. But, you know, the whole point of making that movie was to not make assumptions and not, preach. It was about…

32:24Jawad MirExactly

32:24David Robbins... It was a, it was to, it was to promote, thought and d… debate and both sides are right, you know? That's kind of what the movie shows, that the parents, you know, you feel for both side, you know, both the parents and for, even him, you know, this wretched guy that just went down the wrong path and

32:53Jawad MirYeah

32:53David Robbins... It's, it... Everybody, you know, everybody is a human, you know? And…

32:59Jawad Mir100%.

33:00David RobbinsAnd…

33:00Jawad MirYou know…

33:01David RobbinsGo ahead.

33:03Jawad MirI was gonna say, Spielberg said this at the premiere of, Schindler's List when it was aired on NBC. I still remember his words, and he said, "No, not everyone is born with hate. You acquire hate." You know…

33:16Jawad Mir... Basically meaning that you ha… it's not like you're born with hate. You go through circumstances. Now, is that right that you become like that? Okay, obviously not. But again, at the end of the day, you know, we're humans. You look at The Godfather T… Trilogy, you look at Goodfellas, like these insane, you know, gang members, mafia killers, and yet they have family and they're human. They have their own stuff, yet they think they're heroes in their lives and everybody else is a villain. So…

33:43David RobbinsYeah

33:43Jawad Mir... Which is something I really loved about Dead Man Walking, and I just, you know... Obviously, you know, you did the score, but at the same time, you were part of the film. It was just something about it that was just so powerful, that even when I watched it yesterday, I, it was, it was very difficult to watch, but at the same time, I didn't wanna turn it off.

34:05David RobbinsRight. Right. It's,.. Yeah, the, you me… you talk about hate. It i… it is learned. It is taught. It's, it's,.. Nobody is born with it, as you said. And, you know, you look at the world today and everybody's drawn their line in the sand and

34:28Jawad MirYeah

34:28David Robbins... It's a dangerous place to be, because they're fomenting hate amongst themselves. And we have some responsibility in that too, i… in that it's... This has become very tribal in this country. And, it could go any way, you know? You don't know.

34:54David RobbinsI mean, I did a movie a few years after Dead Man Walking, that was shot in, the old Yugoslavia, former Yo… Yugoslavia. Primarily in Serbia, in Belgrade, and also in, Montenegro. And ... It was called Savior. And, it was about…

35:20Jawad MirDen…

35:20David Robbins... The wars

35:21Jawad Mir... Dennis Quaid was in it?

35:22David RobbinsYes, Dennis Quaid and, several, Serbian actors were in it as well. And, Natasha, Nastasja Kinski had a very brief role at, in the final cut. But, it showed how once tight families, you know, the, these, the, these, families are dra… are pulled apart and your neighbors are pulled apart from you know, the Croats and the Serbs. And, this fight between them and it, they, it's all about, it's, it's turning everything into hate to... And the atrocities that are committed are just, you know, astounding. And, I had the opportunity to make the score, to do the score for this, and they invited me over when they were shooting.

36:27David RobbinsI went over to Yugoslavia and was part of the shooting and I met the director and, his name is, Pedrag Antonijevic. We call him Gaga. And I went there and then I went back when it was in post-production to see if I could actually record the score there because I love working with, folk musicians, you know, of all countries anywhere. You know, it's just, it, there's something about folk music that transcends popular music or in some cases even orchestral music, classical music. And that is that it's, it's basically a s… a story being told with melody and with words, and it's passed down from generation to generation. You know, it's, there's a reason why it's so compelling. It's, it lasts and it's simple and it's passionate. And some of the mus… I got to go into the state radio archives of Belgrade and had my, you know, had them play all these tapes and stuff that had never, you know, been outside the country.

37:51David RobbinsAnd I was able to just pick a, "Can you copy that one for me?" And then I listened for hours and, got cassettes of, the s… the ones that I wanted. And, tho… those are what inspired me to kind of write the score for that. And I wanted to record there so I could use local musicians along with, the o… Belgrade Symphony Orchestra and a choir there. And I was able to do it, and it was basically going into a s… seventies era, sixties era recording studio where the window in, you know, from the control room into the, into the studio was all kind of like yellowed out from nicotine from years and years and years of nicotine. And, we literally used every, everything they had to get this done. It was like 60-piece orchestra and, it w… we had wires that were stretched because they weren't quite long enough.

38:57David RobbinsSo it's like you had everything used. Everything. And it was... I just said it was like, you know, we got this made with, paperclips and bubblegum. You know, keep it all together. And recorded the orchestra, recorded the choir. My dad, Gil, came. He arranged for the stuff for the choir that we were doing and conducted the orchestra and, then I ha… I got the folk musicians in, and that was something. I mean, that was the best part. There was this guy, Bora Dugic, who was a flute player, and he comes in with this duffle bag full of handmade flutes that he… were his. And this guy was very famous, and there was also a guy who was kind of my guru in a sense, a guy named Cornell Kovach, who was a big-time composer in Yugoslavia.

40:03David RobbinsAnd he, and when Bora came in, he was very reserved and, you know, he basically asked, Cornell, says, "Why are you working with this American? I mean, what... You're famous. You're, you're big. Why are you doing that?" And, Cornell says, "To learn." And I thought that was so sweet and, after that, you know, Bora got relaxed and he became this incredible, you know, he was a n… really nice guy, and he could play unbelievable. He brought so much soul to that and percussionists and, you know, working with odd, you know, these beats that I'd dug out from some of those recordings, these odd m… meters and it was just so much fun and, got this, quartet, this group of girls who had a group called MOBA, who did these acapella.

41:12David RobbinsThey did this song, called Rasti, and I don't remember the rest of the title, but, it, is a song that I heard that I said, "This has to be in the movie." And it i… it is in the movie once as an acapella and once as a… an arrangement for, a cue that I did. And, when I first heard that, it was like I… it was seething with passion and loss and hope and, all of these emotions. And I couldn't understand a word. I didn't know the language, but I understood what it was about. And I found out later what it was about, is, the, rasti means grow. And it's, it's, a woman who's lamenting her husband having gone off to war. And before he left, they planted this tree and after he left, she would sing to the tree every day, "Grow."

42:23David Robbins'Cause when it's, it's grown, her husband will come back. Just amazing. And, you know, that's, that's folk music for you. And that's, that's something that I've always drawn upon, in everything that I've done is, look for the simplicity first and look for, look for the passion of it and, Look for whatever mood it's, it's, you know, it's telling me.

42:57Jawad MirYeah.

42:57David RobbinsIt guides me quite a bit, you know, in all sorts of folk music from everywhere around the world. It's amazing.

43:03Jawad MirDo you still listen to a lot of folk music, like, in your…

43:05David RobbinsOh, yeah

43:06Jawad Mir... Free time?

43:07David RobbinsYes. Yes. I listen to, a lot of different things. I still gotta get my yaya's out with the rock and roll. I listen to jazz. I'm particularly drawn to, '30s, '30s jazz, '20s and '30s. I just love that era. And, classical. I'm not a big coral fan. My dad would be…

43:36David Robbins... Upset at that, but, you know. Yeah. I don't, I don't go in for most opera, although there are a couple that are worth… worthy. And

43:49Jawad MirOkay

43:49David Robbins... And of course, the big thing is folk music, you know, both American, South American, everywhere. I mean, it, everywhere you go there's folk music. You know, China even. And some of the, music from China, the traditional folk music is just stunning. And, it's a shame that the young generation is shunning that. They are completely shunning it, and going for pop. You know…

44:24Jawad MirYeah

44:24David Robbins... Modern. And, hopefully there's enough people that will keep that fire burning, to keep it alive and relevant.

44:36Jawad MirYou should, I mean, you mentioned China. Have you heard of the, in the northwest part of China, the group called Uyghurs?

44:45David RobbinsNo.

44:47Jawad MirI mean, there's a whole political stuff behind it, which I won't get into, but… ... It's the northern part of China, Uyghur Muslims, so they're basically, connected to the former Turkic people. And so it's, if you listen to their folk, their music, it's U-Y G-H-U-R.

45:09David RobbinsU-Y G-H-E-R?

45:13Jawad MirG-H. UR.

45:14David RobbinsUR. Okay.

45:15Jawad MirYeah. So their folk music is something you will really like it, because in some parts of where they live, they still have structures that are, you know, over, almost over 100 years old, like mud homes, and obviously they have been, given some sort of retouches and everything. But their music…

45:36Jawad Mir... You know, flutes and their vocals, it's, it's similar to, you know, they do a lot of similar stuff to what Nusrat did. ... You know, the vocals and all that. So you will appreciate that. Just something for you to, look into. And if you YouTube it, there's tons of stuff they have on that.

45:52David RobbinsDefinitely, yeah.

45:53Jawad MirI wanted to ask you about, you know, Dead Man Walking. You said, you know, you were involved from pre-production to post. Do you remember any story on the set or any scene on the set that was being filmed and it really, like, just deeply moved you? I mean, we're talking about no editing obviously at that point, like, you know, you're in production, no music. If there's something that really got to you.

46:18David RobbinsI d… I wasn't on the set too much. I was…

46:23Jawad MirOkay

46:23David Robbins... You know, d… I was in, taking advantage of being in New Orleans and, doing research on music and stuff, that was relevant or could be relevant…

46:36Jawad MirOkay

46:37David Robbins... Or what have you. But I do remember the, talking with, Missy Yager, who was the w… the girl who was the murdered character in… ... Of the couple. And, she was profoundly, shaken and changed by the filming of that scene in the, in the forest.

47:09Jawad MirI bet.

47:11David RobbinsAnd, she, I mean, it was a good, shaken in a good way and a bad way. It was something, it was like one of those kind of life things, you know, that she, it was very profound for her. And, 'cause it was, it was, in a sense it was too real, you know. And

47:34Jawad MirI was gonna say that, because even if you know the cameras are rolling, it's such a weird thing, you know, as an actor to be…

47:42David RobbinsYeah

47:42Jawad Mir... Going through. You know? And how do you... Like, it just seems real no matter what, but especially one of the things I really appreciated Tim doing in the film, it was disturbing, but it was necessary that the way he did all that, the way it was filmed and, you know, it was, it was not in any way glorified at all, but at the same time it made you feel for everybody.

48:09David RobbinsYeah

48:10Jawad Mir... Especially at the end when he's dying and they show the complete flashback.

48:15David RobbinsYeah.

48:15Jawad MirI mean, that's, that's when I was like, "You know, this guy really messed up." Like, he, you know, I'm glad that he's going through what he's going through. But then it reverses again at the end when you see him going in the grave. So it's, it's like a mixed bag of emotions that the film…

48:30David RobbinsYeah

48:30Jawad Mir... Carried, which I really enjoyed.

48:33David RobbinsYeah. Tim was, very, considerate of other actors to, as a rule. And, respectful and nurturing. You know, he, And that was a difficult night that they had to do, and everybody knew it, and he did his best and, you know, from what I hear, and I would…

49:03Jawad MirYeah

49:04David Robbins... Think no other, you know. And the way he ed… the way it was edited, you know, it's not gratuitous. You know, it's, it's like, it's tells... There's, it's a vital part of telling the story.

49:18Jawad MirI think…

49:18David RobbinsAnd, you know, an interesting thing is that, you know, in New York, during post, he didn't want to be in a, in a editing room. Neither did the editor. So he converted his, ki… garage i… upstate in Pound Ridge to, an editing room where they had... It was still film, you know, no digital. And

49:48Jawad MirYeah

49:48David Robbins... He had, the whole editing crew up there. Everybody stayed up there, and it was like you could walk out the door for a second and be in nature, and I'm telling you, that's what kept everybody sane. It would've been, too hard to do it another way because of that intensity that, you know, you've got to go through all of that stuff over and over and over again. And, you know, on my part, it's when I'm looking at rough cut and, you know, developing music, it's you're seeing this stuff, and the first times that you see it's just, it's devastating. And then at some point, a switch happens where you, it's objective, and you... Because you can't go through that every time. You have to shut down, in a sense. But you can always draw on the emotion that you got the very first time you saw it, and I o… I would always be able to look back at that rather than having to live it each time.

50:52David RobbinsThat way I could get my work done.

50:55Jawad MirYeah.

50:55David RobbinsAnd draw on, draw on, the drama that I needed to, you know…

51:07Jawad MirYeah

51:07David Robbins... To…

51:08Jawad MirIt…

51:08David Robbins... Put into music.

51:10Jawad MirIt's hard going through that, right? Like, whether you're a director on the set, an editor in post or, you know, yourself, music, for a film like that, and especially w… 'cause you're experiencing it over and over again.

51:27David RobbinsYeah.

51:28Jawad MirRight? Like, I know the stuff that I've done, the two of the most things that I've done recently, they're quite disturbing and to be able to go through that and live that, it really has an impact on your own mindset. And

51:44David RobbinsYeah

51:44Jawad Mir... And the fact that they did, you know, for, you mentioned that the editing, they had this room in the garage or, you know, they went out in nature. But when you were going through this and composing, like, was there a scene where you completely broke down or, you know, you needed a break or?

52:03David RobbinsOh, I would have to walk away from it, you know, at certain times. I, you just have to, and I have to, because you start to lose something if you…

52:15Jawad MirYeah

52:15David Robbins... Wallow in it, you know, a… or overdose on it. It's like you have to take it in pieces sometimes. And luckily, I think for me, I didn't have to score heavy moments. That was played as reality on, you know, by design.

52:37David RobbinsAnd the m… the music was basically to help, guide the audience through it without them being overwhelmed too much, you know? It's like that breath of fresh air was very important, and airy and had, with a spiritualness, you know? A universality. It's not, 'cause this is something that is not, just in the States. You know, this is not local. This is…

53:05Jawad MirYeah

53:06David Robbins... Universal, and we kept with that. And then, you know, the, just one of the most beautiful things is that the start of the end credits music that you hear is Ry Cooder's Izil. And it's…

53:22Jawad MirYeah

53:22David Robbins... It's just, it's, it's beautiful. It's like you go, you know, "Ah," and you sit there and you're able to, during that piece, you're able to digest, gather, compose yourself, and then be able to walk out, of the theater after, you know, not a complete mess. And, it, so it, is really good. And, it was, I'm so glad that was the way we went because it was the right way. And, Tim and I, you know, we've developed a language between us. You know, we do a lot of theater together too. You know, we

54:10David Robbins... We've done the three movies that he's had the opportunity to direct and write and, I've taken all of those lessons I learned in those and applied it to everything that I do. And, I'm just really grateful that I have the opportunity to do what I do, you know? I w… I wanna keep doing more and more.

54:39Jawad MirRight. No, we want you to do more because, you know, there's, music is just something that there is no,.. It's unlimited in the sense that, you know, you can have as many composers or singers or lyricists. Everybody brings something else to the table, right? Every…

54:59David RobbinsSure

55:00Jawad Mir... Their own story and their own personal view.

55:02David RobbinsYeah.

55:03Jawad MirThe actual song that won the Academy Award, Dead Men Walking, were you... Did you, did you work with Bruce Springsteen quite a bit, for that or…

55:12David RobbinsNo. He basically, like most of them, they worked in their own environments, you know.

55:20Jawad MirRight.

55:20David RobbinsTim was, had become friends with Bruce ... I think during that process. And, I did go out. We, you know, we did spend a little time out at his farm, and I was able to spend a day with him and his family and, that was very nice. And, but, you know, I mean s… like Steve Earle, for instance, you know, he... Everybody has their story about... You know, Tim sent out rough cuts to all these people that we had, that he and I, consider poets, you know, in the way they write lyrics.

56:05Jawad MirRight.

56:05David RobbinsThat they're not just, not just, good songwriters, but they have a poetry to their lyrics. And…

56:13Jawad MirRight

56:14David Robbins... He, we were expecting maybe three, four people to, you know, come that we could add it onto a soundtrack album, you know. But everybody just sent them back, you know. It's like you got... Here, I remember my list now. I got it here. You got Bruce Springsteen, Johnny Cash, who writes…

56:37Jawad MirRight

56:37David Robbins... What I think is one of the best songs he's ever written. It's called In M… In Your Mind about J… one foot on Jacob's Ladder and one foot in the fire.

56:46Jawad MirYes.

56:46David RobbinsAnd it all goes down in your mind. It's crazy great. Susan V… Suzanne Vega, Lyle Lovett did two. I'm sorry, no, he did one. Tom Waits did two songs for it.

56:59Jawad MirOkay.

56:59David RobbinsJust amazing. And, Michelle Shocked, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Steve Earle, that, you know... I,.. At one point, you know, it's like that was so profound, and he wrote that, like in a New York second. I mean, he, it came spilling out of him when he was on tour. He had seen the tape that was sent to him, and he, and he wrote that, like based on his world that he knew in Texas. LSU…

57:33Jawad MirRight

57:33David Robbins... One is the, is in one of the, prisons there. I did, I did become good friends with him. And I was a little bit involved in that production. It's only in the sense that he had done the solo guitars as a demo. That, to me, was perfect. And he added some, backgrounds of these singers down in Nashville, and he didn't know if they worked or not. I said, "You know, I just like it plain and simple." And he ended up keeping it that way. Patty Smyth, I was able to, help produce that. She came in. That was an experience, you know. Tom Verlaine and

58:34Jawad MirIt's, it's incredible the names that you guys are able to pull in, right? I mean, that…

58:38David RobbinsAmazing

58:38Jawad Mir... It's rare to see that.

58:41David RobbinsYeah. It is. And, what was also kind of, we couldn't really fit any of them in the s… in the, in the

58:52Jawad MirYeah

58:52David Robbins... In the body of the movie, except one, which was Johnny Cash's song, which was playing on a radio in a car for the scene…

59:01Jawad MirYeah

59:01David Robbins... Jack Black's scene in that. And…

59:04Jawad MirYeah

59:05David Robbins... It was nominated for a Golden Globe until they re… re… revoked it because they said, "Oops, we're so sorry."

59:14Jawad MirOh.

59:15David RobbinsThat... And it was like, you know, days before the Golden Globes because it didn't meet the threshold of volume. It was too low.

59:28Jawad MirWhat?

59:28David RobbinsYeah. That was their, one of their silly rules. I don't know. But I was, I got to know him that night. I went, we actually, it was like me, Johnny, June, and my wife were in a limo going to the Golden Globes, and we sat together at the table and everything. It was, it was just a fantastic night. I'll never forget things like that. I mean, this is, this whole experience was just like one of a kind, that I'll be forever grateful to be a part of. And, you know…

1:00:02Jawad MirYeah

1:00:02David Robbins... I'm a happy man.

1:00:03Jawad MirYeah. That's good to hear. Well, do you have any, upcoming projects, whether it's theater or film, or just concert…

1:00:12David RobbinsWe just finished…

1:00:13Jawad Mir... Or anything

1:00:14David Robbins... We just finished a, theater that I was playing live in. I was doing some kind of a hard rock punk guitar, just me. And it's a production of Ubu the King, funny enough, that we're, we brought back for the 40th anniversary and

1:00:33Jawad MirOkay

1:00:33David Robbins... Different, you know, with a new cast. And I came up with, you know, some guitar stuff and, you know, did a little bit of, other songs, you know, like, a couple X so… you know, pieces of X songs or Dead Kennedys, you know, things like that. A lot of fun to do though. I mean, to get, to wipe off the cobwebs of the guitar, you know. Of the electric guitar, that is. I've And

1:01:06Jawad MirYeah

1:01:07David Robbins... And really crank it up, and it was, it was a lot of fun. That just closed, a week ago. And, I did a... The last movie I did was a feature I did, was something that came out, last fall. It was called, Adopting Audrey, and it was, directed by, Michael Cahill. He goes by M. Cahill, on…

1:01:34Jawad MirOkay

1:01:34David Robbins... Credits. But, he was the second time I worked with him. He had done, King of California that I did the score for.

1:01:43Jawad MirRight

1:01:44David Robbins... With, Evan… Rick… No.

1:01:53Jawad MirThat was in the '90s, right, the King of California?

1:01:57David RobbinsIt was,.. No, it was 2000s. I think it was 2005 or '6, something like that. It was with Johnny... I mean, geez, I've got my names all bundled up in my head.

1:02:13Jawad MirIt's okay. There's a lot of people you've worked with, so

1:02:16David RobbinsYeah.

1:02:18Jawad MirYou were a composer for,.. I'm just looking at IMDb, and I... Well, War Inc. Was a great movie. Maybe we should talk about that one day.

1:02:27David RobbinsOkay

1:02:28Jawad MirAnd then I don't know what this pro… Project Kashmir is. It's a documentary?

1:02:32David RobbinsDocumentary. It was about the, conflict between Kashmir and

1:02:37Jawad MirYeah

1:02:39David Robbins... India.

1:02:39Jawad MirYeah.

1:02:39David RobbinsOr Pa… Pakistan. And, as seen through one Pakistani w… woman and one, Kashmiri woman, and they co, you know, they co-made this film. They were friends. They became friends in that unlikely environment.

1:03:03David RobbinsAnd, that, I, the,.. I have to say, I mean, I've been, over the years I've been really lucky in that most of the things that I've worked on, they've given me some freedom to experiment, and the quality of these produ… of these, of these, productions, regardless of how well they did, you know, in the box office, are good, solid movies that I'm, I'm very proud of working on, you know? I mean, I've, I've been blessed in that I did… I haven't been, in those situations where you're working on something that you absolutely hate and

1:03:46Jawad MirYeah

1:03:47David Robbins... You don't wanna die inside in the process.

1:03:51Jawad MirIt... You know, it's, it's interesting you mention that, right? Because, and this is not just in music or directing or editing, in anything, you know, the element of getting money and getting paid is so, is very important, absolutely. But at the same time, if you work on something that 20 years later you're not gonna remember the money you made, but you're gonna remember the experience that you had, right? And was it a good experience…

1:04:21David RobbinsExactly

1:04:21Jawad Mir... Or a bad experience? And obviously, you know, we all have negative experience to get, learn from them, to make a, to have po… positive experience. But I'm, I'm glad you, again, went through, you know, where you're happy and satisfied with your career. And I'm gonna check out, Project Kashmir because, I mean, Kashmir is something that I have grown up around…

1:04:40Jawad Mir... In terms of, being the p… the politics and all that. And, we'll, we'll be in touch with you, and definitely wanna talk to you about War Inc. If that's something you're up for.

1:04:50David RobbinsSure. Love to. Yeah.

1:04:54Jawad MirGreat

1:04:54David Robbins... It's, you know, any… anytime, you know. I love talking about this stuff. It's, it's, you know, been fun experience, you know

1:05:09Jawad MirYeah

1:05:10David Robbins... The most part through the years. So, I love, I…

1:05:13Jawad MirOh, I'm glad

1:05:13David Robbins... You know, I'll be doing this till I drop dead.

1:05:20Jawad MirWell, I really appreciate you working on Dead Man Walking, and I really appreciate you bringing in such cool artists, including Nusrat, onto, in to work on that. Because, you know, I had two set of emotions when I saw that film. One was obviously it was great music and very emotional music, and at the time in 1996, you know, I had immigrated from Pakistan in 1990, and there, it wasn't like this. It wasn't like the way things are right now. Everything is very diversified. You know, you have access to everything everywhere. So to see something like that from where you belong to, you know, all of a sudden out of the blue, I re… it re… I really appreciated that. So thank you so much for doing that.

1:06:08David RobbinsThank you for saying that. I appreciate it. Thank you.

1:06:12Jawad MirWell, it was a pleasure talking to you, David.

1:06:15David RobbinsYou too

1:06:15Jawad Mir... Like I said, we'll definitely be in touch. And, let's, let's, let's keep making music and making movies.

1:06:21David RobbinsI look forward to it. Thank you.