'The Last Breath First', Novel, Nasreen Variyawa

0:00Jawad MirWhen you lose someone, especially a spouse, and then you're writing this book, I don't know how many people knew about the book when, as you were writing it. Even when it came out, was there, aside from the fact that is it true or fiction, was there, like, why did you even write a book?

0:13Nasreen VariyawaOf course, plenty of it, and it's still a question that comes, out, you know. Like, how could you do this? But I have always believed there are two things you can do with what has happened to you. You can keep it to yourself, live the rest of your life and pretend it never did, and nobody benefits from it. Or you can be brave, take it out there and help others through it. I have had repeated calls, emails, texts, social media messages from people who have read the first edition that was published here in South Africa who have said, "I think my husband has it. I think I have it, and now I understand why I am the way I am, and I'm going to go and get help, or I'm going to learn how to navigate it."

1:09Jawad MirI had the pleasure of receiving your book and reading, most of it, Last Breath First. A really, unique story, simple, easy to read, fun to read, and I just thought I should say that out first before we start the podcast and have a conversation about your book.

1:27Nasreen VariyawaThank you so much.

1:29Jawad MirI wanted to start off with the connection that you have as an educator. Like, you've spent most of your time as an educator, as an author, coach. What inspired you to write this book? Was it something personal or was it something that you've always wanted? I'd love to hear the backstory of that.

1:51Nasreen VariyawaI think a little bit of both. You know, an author, to my mind, knows or doesn't know that they have it in them to write books. It's a lifelong dream sometimes, and it takes a little bit of bravery to take the plunge. But there is a personal connection to it in that, the main character is largely based on my late husband's character.

2:18Nasreen VariyawaAnd, the reality of, RSD, which is a part of ADHD, was a reality in our lives. And when he passed on, I had this four months of iddah period that, in which I was doing nothing. And I decided to make it a productive four months and 10 days, and I plowed into it on the balcony of my home in Turkey. And, what you see is the result of that. But largely also, he was very progressive, and he wanted people to know about ADHD. He wanted them to know, what it is like to live with it, how to navigate it, because he was very aware of the traumatic consequences of having it and not knowing how to navigate it, if you're living with someone with it. And so that inspired me and spurred me on, and, that's how you have The Last Breath First, with you after two years of writing and going through the production process.

3:30Jawad MirThank you for sharing that, and sorry for your loss.

3:33Nasreen VariyawaThank you so much.

3:34Jawad MirI… It must be really challenging to go through that, which is one part, but then to write a book whi-which is a therapeutic, being therapeutic, and kind of like a… ... Healing process, but still, it's not that easy.

3:49Nasreen VariyawaNo.

3:49Jawad MirWere there times when you were like, "What the heck am I doing? Is this even the right thing to do at this time?" Or was it just go straight at it?

3:58Nasreen VariyawaOf course, of course. Apart from the moments in which I felt, that I was being put through a paper shredder repeatedly. Because when you go through the editing process, for example, it requires you to go over the manuscript and revise it, repeatedly. And, there were times when I felt I was going through the paper shredder, especially towards the latter part of the book, where we're, we're, we're really at the, climax, where things get really tough, and there are make or break decisions to make, and I feel like I'm reliving that.

4:33Nasreen VariyawaSo whenever I read those parts, I have to go through it again for whatever purpose. It does feel like I'm being put through a paper, you know, a paper shredder. You go through the emotional highs and lows. The first part of the book being all wonderful memories. The second part of the book being somewhat painful. But yes, there have been times, especially just before I published the book, where I felt like, "What am I doing?" Because you're opening a door, or a window into your life, that nobody knows about. And when it comes to family and friends, for example, who've, who had no idea that you were living this life, you know, and who thought that it was all okay now suddenly learn, that it wasn't really all that okay and that you've actually walked this path. So, you know, you find yourself having to discuss things like, "So is everything true?" Or…

5:32Nasreen Variyawa... You know, "Is there an element of fiction to it?" And you've got to find the balance of what you explain, what you don't explain. You've got to, filter the kind of conversations that you have. And al… of course, you've got to control, how you feel about it and how much you actually let go of, to the public as well.

5:54Jawad MirAnd I was gonna ask you that question, how much was this fiction versus truthful, which I, which I won't, but I have another question. When… You know, when you lose someone, especially a spouse, right, especially a husband…

6:08Jawad Mir... And then you're writing this book, and I don't know how many people knew about the book when you… as you were writing it, but even when it came out, was there, aside from the fact that is it true or is it fiction, was there, like, why did you even write a book? You know, why are you even putting this out there…

6:25Jawad Mir... Instead of mourning the loss of your husband and all that? You know how those things sometimes sort of…

6:31Nasreen VariyawaYes

6:31Jawad Mir... Come about.

6:31Nasreen VariyawaYes.

6:31Jawad MirWas there anything like that?

6:33Nasreen VariyawaOf course, plenty of it, and it's still a question that comes, out, you know. Like, how could you do this? But I have always believed that, there are two things you can do with what has happened to you. You can keep it to yourself, live the rest of your life, and pretend it never did, and nobody benefits from it. Or you can be brave, take it out there, and help others through it. I have had repeated calls, emails, texts, social media messages from people who have read, the first f… the first edition that was published here in South Africa who have said, "I think my son has it. I think my husband has it. I think I have it, and now I understand why I am the way I am, and I'm going to go and get help," or, "I'm going to learn how to navigate it." y… of course, there are those who want me to help, but that's the line I have to draw.

7:34Nasreen VariyawaBut then this kind of response, makes it all worth it because, when you are helping others through the story, through publishing something like this, you realize, that if you even saved one marriage or even one relationship between a parent and a son, a parent and a daughter, or if you even helped a teacher get insight into what he or she is seeing in their classroom, you've done a service, and that's the most important thing about putting a book out there, fiction or nonfiction. You… when you help others through telling stories, you're, you're doing the community a service, and I, and I believe that is a big giveback to community and that's primarily why I did it.

8:23Jawad MirThat is an absolute accurate statement, you know, whether it comes to books, whether it comes to films. You know, having direct, having direct feature films myself…

8:34Nasreen VariyawaRight

8:34Jawad Mir... It's sometimes one person says something that how it impact their life, that is beyond anything else. You know, because…

8:41Nasreen VariyawaRight

8:41Jawad Mir... As artists, as storytellers, we are always looking... We're looking to make impact. Yes, it's like a living too, right? But that… ... That impact that it has makes a huge difference. You talked about stories, and how it helps other people, right? Growing up, what are some of the books or stories or movies or just in general people around you, stories that have helped you shape who you are, that inspired you, that made you better?

9:12Nasreen VariyawaYou know, I'd have to go through an entire library to tell you how each book has impacted me. But, you know, growing up, I think one of the most important things is that when your parents encourage literature, when they encourage reading, no matter what that is. Growing up, it was The Famous Five by Enid Blyton. As a teenager, different books by different authors. And all of them gave me a sense of, "I'd like to do this someday," or, "Is this even real… really a full-time job? Could I really earn a living from it? 'Cause if it is, it's something I'd like to do all of my life." but, you know, different authors, different styles, different stories. But I'll tell you more than that what really spurs an author on, however much they deny it. This is the truth. Real-life stories are unbeatable.

10:08Nasreen VariyawaAnd they don't only have to happen to you. They can be happening in your home. They can be happening to your neighbor. They can be happening to your friends. They can be happening to your colleagues. It's up to an author to have an imagination and actually put those together to form a single book. And this is the most important thing about impact. When you're aware of your immediate surroundings, your life, who's in it, what you're hearing on a train, what you're hearing, from your neighbors in a restaurant, all of those things are what, impact, your or influence your writing more than another author or a movie or anything else. But yes, it does. It... Those do have an impact, but to me, what's happening in your immediate environment and the people you come into contact with and your personal experiences, especially travel, is what impacts, writing.

11:08Jawad MirAmazing.

11:09Nasreen VariyawaYeah.

11:09Jawad MirWhen you were writing this, as you said, it started right, more or less right after the passing of your husband. You know, every writer works differently, right? Sometimes it's structure that you sort of put together.

11:22Jawad MirLike, okay, this is the beginning, this is the mid… middle, this is the end. Or sometimes you just write. Was there ever a time where did you, like, did you know where you were going with this in terms of fiction versus reality? Or was it some sort of a structured and planned im… action to implement that?

11:45Nasreen VariyawaI must be honest, I was very tempted to put a self-help book out there because I do that really well. I have four other publications before this one, all of them nonfiction, all of them self-help. But then I stopped myself and I said, "Hang on, Nasreen." You've got these four months and 10 days, and, you're doing absolutely nothing with life right now. And you've always wanted to write a story. How about you use the opportunity to actually do it? However painful this turns out, however, whether it materializes or not is not the point. The point is, try your hand at it. Study at the same time about how to do it. Do it and see what happens. And so that is exactly what I did. You know, I just, I… if you talk about structure and, you know, the deliberateness of story writing in that, knowing the theory and knowing what goes into a story, I did none of that. I just sat up… sat down and punched at my keyboard, for at least five hours a day, going through memories, putting them out on paper, and eventually we had, I think, about a 600-page manuscript, after I'd gone through everything.

13:14Nasreen VariyawaThat was the healing part. That was the part where I just got it all out. Everything I felt, everything that I experienced, raw emotions came out. And then comes the difficult part when you sit down with the developmental ele… editor and they say to you, "Well, this is a great story, but…"

13:34Nasreen VariyawaYou know, you've got to, what they call, cut your babies. You know, chop the babies and this is what stays, and this is what should go, and then you go through that negotiation process. So, this idea that you go through three edits, is but fiction. There are at least six to seven, different versions of The Last Breath First. And, I went through that entire process for another year and a half before we settled on this 200-odd page manuscript, which then materialized into The Last Breath First.

14:10Jawad MirWas there a particular part that you fought for that is in the book that the editor or editors or the publisher or whatnot thought that it wasn't fitting to the story that you can talk about? You don't have to reveal necessarily the scene for the audience, but just something that you can touch upon.

14:33Nasreen VariyawaYes. I think when it comes to mainstream publishing, the challenge that Muslim authors face, authors of color, the challenge we face is actually this need to explain, the e… the ethnicity of the, of the character or, maintaining the authenticity, the authenticity of the, of the ethnicity of your character. And I had to fight hard to keep that authentic because, Kareem in the book, I wanted him to be exactly as he was in real life. Because an ADHD person has certain characteristics that are unique. They're not, they're, they're not the average human being. They're special people. But them having their ethnicity background also makes it that much special.

15:35Nasreen VariyawaSo his humor was unique. The way he explained things was unique. The way he did things was unique. And I had to fight hard to keep that authentic because developmental editors wanted to paint him in this, I don't know, this average picture, which he was not in my mind.

15:54Nasreen VariyawaAnd I had to fight hard to keep his authenticity a… authenticity and uniqueness in place. But when it came to plot and things like that, I didn't have to struggle because, what I was presenting, was engaging enough, interesting enough, and they were happy with that part. They just weren't happy with the way I was presenting Kareem and the authenticity with which, I wanted to maintain and sustain for the novel itself.

16:24Jawad MirThat's really interesting.

16:24Nasreen VariyawaAnd in the end that worked out because, you know, other editors saw it differently, and the product is widely accepted and loved.

16:36Jawad MirYeah, I mean, it's all, perspective, right? Of somebody… Everybody's looking at it from their own life experiences…

16:44Nasreen VariyawaYeah

16:44Jawad Mir... Lens or what may happen or what may not happen.

16:47Nasreen VariyawaYeah.

16:47Jawad MirLet's talk about your husband, if that's okay.

16:50Nasreen VariyawaYeah, sure.

16:51Jawad MirHow did you guys two… H… how did you two meet?

16:55Nasreen VariyawaExactly as, you see it in the novel.

16:59Jawad MirOkay.

17:00Nasreen VariyawaI was doing freelance writing. He was looking for somebody to write. I was available. We met. We did the work, as you read. And at the end of it all, I wasn't expecting it, but it culminated in a proposal, and it culminated in our marriage and life together.

17:20Jawad MirThat's amazing. How long were you guys married for before he passed?

17:25Nasreen VariyawaThree and a half years.

17:30Jawad MirWhat is… I know there must be millions of them. If there was one memory that right now as I'm speaking to you that comes… ... To your mind about him… ... Or a story that you can share.

17:46Nasreen VariyawaOh, there are so many, but I think, I think the moment that replays repeatedly and which is also a part of the book, is the moment he gave me the ring in which has the inscription, Tuburni in it. And I keep going over that moment, and I keep asking myself, was it really... Was I really all that, you know, was it… did I really not care enough to go and find out what this thing really means, before he passed and before he had to explain it to me? But that's the reality of it. I did just that. Every time he said those words, I would tell him, "Oh, here's the, that word again. It sounds like a bad brand of biscuits." Those were the, those were really the things I s… I said about that word. And I wonder now in hindsight, you know, how I could have not been curious enough to go and find it or to find out what it meant, and to find out why he was saying what he was saying.

18:59Nasreen VariyawaI just took it for granted. But then when I think about it, maybe that was Allah's way of just, you know, letting me live without digging into why he was saying it. And maybe I was just meant to find out when I found out what it meant in the way I found out what it meant. And I often tell people who ask me about it, I feel like he left me the plot of the book, and that's his legacy. And I guess, you know, for sanity's sake, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. That's what it's all about. He left me a plot, he left me a story, and this is his legacy.

19:41Jawad MirThat is really well said, that he left you a plot for a story.

19:46Nasreen VariyawaYeah. He did.

19:46Jawad MirThat is really well said. Obviously you miss him.

19:52Nasreen VariyawaOh, too much.

19:55Jawad MirToo much, hence the book. I'm just trying to articulate this question. You know, marriage is probably one of the most hardest things. Right? There's the best of times, there's not so best of times. It's like a, you know, up and down…

20:20Jawad Mir... Flow of water. What are... And you know, I'm not trying to go there, but sometimes, for example, I'll, I'll talk about somebody I know. One of my friends, he was, he got ill, and just before he got ill, he and I had a serious, not a discussion or argument, like it was a little bit more heavier than that. And the first thing that came to my mind was we sort of left at a sour note, and maybe I shouldn't have, maybe it was this, maybe it was that. When going, looking back at your time with your husband…

21:06Jawad Mir... I'm sure there were times where things weren't as lovely looking as, you know, as in the book. Do those things come to my mind that, to your mind that maybe I should, maybe that is part of our story, or maybe I shouldn't have? Or you just try to sort of just make sure that it isn't like... Because it can mess up with your head, right? Like…

21:27Jawad Mir... You're thinking about it all the time.

21:31Nasreen VariyawaOf course. We all, I think, have, the I wish I had done this, I wish I had done more of that, I wish I had done less of this. But, I'm not sorry that I went digging. I'm not sorry that I went and found an ADHD coach. I'm not sorry that I kept that from him, because in the end, it was what saved the marriage. Because, from that point on, when I'd learned to navigate RSD, when I'd learned the triggers, when I'd learned how to live and work my way around it, there was no marriage more beautiful than this one. Was it perfect? No, because obviously you learn through trial and error. Did I make mistakes? Plenty of them. Were the mistakes costly to the relationship?

22:31Nasreen VariyawaYes, they were. Of course, they were. But I'm ha… very happy to say that in the end, you know, it was a case of small resentments, that are human to have, and that I'm perfectly okay with now, because I realize what was behind them, and I realize that this is all part of living and life and life ending. You're mentioning a friend, for example, who you didn't end on a good note with, and my answer to that would be that, you know, a lot of times the people who are closest to us, the people we love, they push us away f… they push themselves away from us because they know that their life is coming to an end. And that might have been the case. That is why you didn't end on a good note.

23:33Jawad MirJust to, just to clarify, he didn't pass away. It's just he got ill.

23:37Nasreen VariyawaOh, I see.

23:39Jawad MirSorry. I don't want…

23:40Nasreen VariyawaCut this part of the video.

23:43Jawad MirI don't wanna, I don't wanna kill the guy.

23:46Nasreen VariyawaNo, of course not. But you know, these things happen. It's, it's human, you know? The last thing, and it's a stupid thing, the last thing I might have resented was, you know, there was a shoe I really liked. It was our last trip to Tunisia about a week before he passed. We were in Tunisia, and we were spending time there. There was a shoe that I really liked, and there was... For some reason, he was very, he had a sixth sense about everything, about whether things would work or not work, or whether it was good for you or not good for you, and inevitably he was always right, as an AD… ADHD person is. They have this intuition that is second to none. Of course I knew that, but then I have to be myself and want to, want to challenge that anyway, right? Because I really want something. I think that's, that's about it. Nothing serious. I d… I don't have moments in which I regret anything…

24:50Jawad MirYeah

24:50Nasreen Variyawa... Or any of the steps I took to sustain this marriage. Yeah, but I do have moments of, "I wish I'd done more of this," or, "I wish, I hadn't worked as much," or, you know, "I wish I had spent more time with him," things like that, nothing more than that.

25:07Jawad MirBut to answer to all of that is, if you had done those things, maybe this wouldn't have happened, right? So you don't know.

25:15Nasreen VariyawaCorrect.

25:16Jawad MirRight. So it's…

25:16Nasreen VariyawaHe left me the plot to the story.

25:20Jawad MirHe left the plot to the story. No, it's…

25:22Nasreen VariyawaYeah

25:22Jawad Mir... Everything happens in a way that where you end up doing things where, you know, you don't anticipate doing them. Like you don't know… ... This is where it's heading. Talking about your own career, your own life…

25:36Jawad Mir... Gr… did you grow up in South Africa?

25:38Nasreen VariyawaI did, yes.

25:39Jawad MirOkay. You don't have a South…

25:40Nasreen VariyawaI was raised in South Africa.

25:41Jawad MirY… y… you don't really have a South African accent.

25:46Nasreen VariyawaWhat exactly is a South African accent?

25:48Jawad MirI'm, I'm going by, when I watch cricket…

25:53Nasreen VariyawaRight

25:53Jawad Mir... And you hear the, and you hear the players talking, they have a little bit of a British slash, Australian slash New Zealand accent, just a little bit.

26:02Nasreen VariyawaYes.

26:03Jawad MirAnd am I correct in saying that?

26:05Nasreen VariyawaYes, that…

26:06Jawad MirYeah

26:07Nasreen Variyawa... That is largely the case

26:08Jawad MirYeah

26:08Nasreen Variyawa... Depending on which part of South Africa you were raised in.

26:13Jawad MirMaybe that's the case. Maybe that's the part I didn't know.

26:15Nasreen VariyawaYeah.

26:16Jawad MirTe… tell me about growing up, in a Muslim household, and your aspirations and your dreams, and have they been sort of fulfilled with the path that you have taken all those years to be where you are today, aside from the book and aside from the story?

26:30Nasreen VariyawaSo, I'm, I've been raised in a conservative Muslim home, but the beautiful part about that was that there was always support for education. Dad never stopped us from that. He limited us in certain respects, I beli… I think for our own good. And, he, they were always supportive of the things we wanted to do. For example, entrepreneurship was always the green light, go ahead with it. My mom is big on literature and has always been, so I think I get that part from her. So growing up in this household, there was always plenty of literature to read. There was always a little bit of Dad's influence in terms of entrepreneurship, and there was always Mom's influence in terms of teaching and literature. That was always encouraged. And of course, there was a whole lot of, you know, the external family around us, extended family around us. So that was, that was life growing up. I grew up in this little village called Richmond, which is, largely, you know, in the midlands of KwaZulu-Natal.

27:44Nasreen VariyawaAnd then we moved to Durban, and that's where I pursued my high school studies. Dad wasn't too keen for me to become a teacher at that point in time. We were living in post-apartheid South Africa at that point in time, and his utter nightmare was that I would have to go off to the, to the locations to teach, which at that point in time was not a safe place for a woman to be. You know, so he outright threw that idea out. So I did a diploma in public relations, and eventually, I got this job at an educational institution, which meant that I got where I wanted to be in the first place, just doing something different. And it was my supervisor, my immediate, the chief executive officer who recognized the teacher in me. And, he started, coaching and, mentoring me towards becoming, refining that natural skill that I already had.

28:51Nasreen VariyawaAnd he allowed me to study while I was working there. So I put myself through education and studies, and I progressed from there to work at higher educational institutions around South Africa. And eventually, I just reached this ceiling where I felt that there was nothing more for me going on in the education sector, and I wanted to try something different. So I said, "Well, nothing wrong with it. I think I'll just take a step back and exchange the suits and stilettos for lab coats and trainers, and I'll go to Turkey, and I'll start teaching in classrooms. I want to take a break away from the corporate sector." And I did that, and I was supposed to only do this for a year. So off I went wanderlusting in Turkey from town to town, city to city, rocking up at school saying, "Hi, I'm an English teacher from South Africa. Interested in teaching in your school for a bit. Do you have a job for me?" And I ended up doing this, for over two years before I settled down in places like Antalya, where I spent the majority of my teaching career.

30:01Nasreen VariyawaIt was supposed to be just a year of wanderlusting. I ended up spending 13 years in Turkey, which is then how I met my, y… you know, my late husband at the, at the end of that, stint. And then… He was very big on setting me up in a home office and having me do editing and writing more, instead of teaching, which is what I did for the three and a half years that we were married, and that's how this career took off.

30:33Jawad MirThat's amazing. Again, everything is connected, right?

30:37Nasreen VariyawaYeah. You come full circle to what you want to do in the first place. It... You just take detours along the way.

30:44Jawad Mir100%.

30:45Nasreen VariyawaYeah.

30:46Jawad Mir100%.

30:46Nasreen VariyawaYeah.

30:47Jawad MirYou touched upon, apartheid in South Africa. How… ... How old were you or that age gap when you were in that part of the apartheid of South Africa?

31:02Nasreen VariyawaSo I think, I was in my teenage years, you know, middle school kind of-ish, when South Africa was transitioning into a democratic country. What I remember of South Africa from my childhood is, particularly being told... You know, as a child, racial differences don't occur to you. So you're playing in a pool, and then you're told not to go to that part of the pool because that's not for Indians. Or you want to sit on a bench, and you're told you can't sit on that because it says whites only. And so that is the extent of the awareness that I had that I was not supposed to play with the white children or not supposed to approach them, you know, for anything, or offer them a sandwich that I happened to be eating, on a holiday or not stand in the same line as them in, at the post office and things like that.

32:04Nasreen VariyawaAnd then through parental education and what was happening in the country, and then, you find out that, you know, this is gonna change, and it's not gonna be the way it was anymore. It's going to be different. You're going to be able to do things differently now, and you might have African neighbors, and you might have white neighbors, and you are free now to move into a white neighborhood and stay there, you know, and you might have them as neighbors. So these are things that happen through experiences. Of course, there's always the, you know, the teething problems that come with that from day-to-day life. But now South Africa is a democratic country, and it's a different scenario altogether. It's quite normal, for all of these things to take place. But those are my earliest memories of apartheid and, growing up in a little village where these things weren't allowed, where you weren't allowed to mix

33:03Nasreen Variyawa... And you had to be aware of the different colors around you, and the fact that you went to different schools, and you were educated, on different levels, and you had limited opportunities as opposed to them and things like that. Different scenario altogether. Roles are reversed.

33:23Jawad MirYeah. It's interesting.

33:24Nasreen VariyawaYeah.

33:25Jawad MirI remember reading in the bi… biography, also watching in the film… ... The Gandhi film. I'm not sure if you have seen it in a while, the…

33:34Nasreen VariyawaNo

33:34Jawad Mir... The old one. There was a scene in there too about, I think dogs or whites only allowed.

33:39Nasreen VariyawaYes.

33:39Jawad MirAnd that was in the 1800s.

33:42Nasreen VariyawaYes.

33:42Jawad MirRight?

33:42Nasreen VariyawaYes.

33:42Jawad MirAnd that went until the 1980s, and, the progression didn't really take place and…

33:50Nasreen VariyawaYes

33:50Jawad Mir... And... But obviously things have changed now. With this book, what's, what's your plan? Are you doing an international tour? Where is it available? If you can chat about that a little bit.

34:05Nasreen VariyawaSo, it's just... The book was initially released here in South Africa under a different title.

34:13Jawad MirWhat was it called?

34:14Nasreen VariyawaIn South Africa it's called To Poorni, Bury Me Softly. ... That's what it looks like, in South Africa.

34:23Jawad MirOkay. Okay.

34:25Nasreen VariyawaAnd, you know, once we'd published it and, sales rocketed, and there was very big interest in the book. There still is. I was very lucky that Mr. Chisty from, the United Kingdom actually picked it up and said he was interested in publishing it in the United Kingdom, and then that took another year, from publication in South Africa for it to be released as The Last Breath First in the United Kingdom. Obviously, research goes into it. He and his team were quite, on the ball researching whether the title would work, what title would work, what cover would work for that kind of audience. And of course, you know, every publisher has different, requirements, you know, for different audiences. So we went through that process, and that has just released in the UK. But very excitingly, what I'm doing with it right now is I'm turning to teacher again. I've just finished putting together a course, a writing course, that will take audiences through putting a or writing a Muslim romance, what that entails, how to go through the planning stages, how to build a character arc, what are the, what are the different factors that are required into, building characters who are Muslim, building a story that is largely, that largely has an Islamic background to it, and also, how to actually do a subverted end rather than what an audience is expecting, which is, you know, what we did with, The Last Breath First.

36:08Nasreen VariyawaYou've only read, I think, the first bit maybe? You haven't finished the book

36:13Jawad MirMore than, more than half

36:15Nasreen VariyawaYeah. So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna spoil the end for you.

36:18Jawad MirYeah, please don't.

36:20Nasreen VariyawaBut you'll see that we've chosen a non-conventional end. How to do that successfully without disappointing your audiences and things like that. So that course has now been formulated, and it's ready for takeoff, I'm happy to say, and that's what I'm doing with that right now. In terms of book tours, yes, I think a lot more of that is coming. I look forward to hearing from the UK team a little bit more about what they're planning in terms of a physical launch, hopefully, somewhere down the line soon this year. But in South Africa, it's gone around the country. We've done, a lot of, TV interviews, radio interviews, et cetera, et cetera. And, I won't say that it's, it's done its bit already. I'll say that, you know, large interest in the book and, lots of, bookshops now coming to the play. The National Library is not... Is now stocking it, which was something unheard of in the recent past.

37:23Nasreen VariyawaSelf-published authors were not given that kind of privilege, previously. I'm happy to say that Tukburnie has broken that barrier. It's now in our national libraries.

37:34Jawad MirAmazing.

37:34Nasreen VariyawaAnd that's, that's headway for an author like me, you know?

37:39Jawad MirCongratulations.

37:41Nasreen VariyawaThank you. So I look forward to, I look forward to new things happening. I look forward to it taking off in the United Kingdom, Europe, wherever it's going. I'm sure the Beacon Books team is on it, and I'm sure that we'll hear new stuff happening, and I look forward to that. I really do. I look forward to taking the course internationally. I look forward to doing new things with it, teaching authors how to do things, what to do, and then of course, writing other books, again, for helping community, for serving community through it and, going that way, Inshallah.

38:17Jawad MirThat's amazing. Last question.

38:20Nasreen VariyawaGo on.

38:23Jawad MirA good book is always something that not everybody reads. That's just the reality… ... Right? Nowadays, even probably less than maybe even 10 years ago.

38:33Nasreen VariyawaCorrect.

38:34Jawad MirWould it be something that'd be interesting in, to, for you to if, it was turned into a film?

38:42Nasreen VariyawaThat would be…

38:43Jawad MirHas…

38:43Nasreen Variyawa... A dream come true.

38:44Jawad MirHas it been, has there been any chat about that?

38:48Nasreen VariyawaNo. I've not had anybody approach me about it, but then I haven't actually actively sought that. I do, however, believe that the correct person will pick it up at the correct time and will make the correct offer for it, and I won't say no to it because I do believe that it is something that should transition into that.

39:18Jawad MirWell, thank you so much, for your time. I appreciate it. So far, again, an amazing book…

39:26Nasreen VariyawaThank you

39:26Jawad Mir... Last Breaths First. And, I really appreciate Beacon Books reaching out because I had never heard of this. I'll be very honest and, I wasn't sure where… Because the way this podcast is, I try to just sort of focus on stories, like whether it's…

39:45Jawad Mir... Authors, you know, people behind the films and all that.

39:47Nasreen VariyawaYeah. Nice.

39:48Jawad MirI wasn't sure if the audience that we have would be interested in a book like this, just being quite frank. But when I started reading it, I'm like, "Okay," you know? It's, it's not, it's not what it seems like, at least from…

40:04Jawad Mir... From the, from the cover. So, but I love the…

40:06Nasreen VariyawaCorrect

40:06Jawad Mir... South African cover more.

40:10Nasreen VariyawaWell, thank you. That was designed by me. So really thank you. But you've, you've got, you've got some phenomenal authors up there in Canada. Uzma Jalaluddin is from your neck of the woods…

40:23Jawad MirYes

40:23Nasreen Variyawa... And I'm a big fan. And she's got stuff going out on the screens soon, from what I understand.

40:29Jawad MirYes. Yes.

40:30Nasreen VariyawaShe's also…

40:31Jawad MirThere is a, there is an author in UK, her name is Sam… Saima Mir or Samia Mir, and we… it turned out she was my relative after, when we… she was on my podcast…... Before that, which was, which was crazy. But she has written like a, kind of like a Godfather type trilogy. I think it's called…

40:49Nasreen VariyawaRight

40:50Jawad Mir... The Khans. I'll, I'll, I'll…

40:52Nasreen VariyawaRight

40:52Jawad Mir... Yeah. I… It… She… It's good. It's really good. I read the first book, and I haven't read the other two or other one, I think. But that's another good author that… something if you're interested.

41:02Nasreen VariyawaYeah, always. I think the most important thing to remember is that there are phenomenal authors out there that are not getting published by mainstream publishers. And the lovely thing about what's happening now, for example, you picking up, you picking up the book and having a podcast about it, is that now more than ever, the publishing world is sitting up and taking notice of authors who are self-publishing, who are public… who are not published by mainstream, you know. And research is showing that audiences are looking, for books that don't conform to the standard.

41:44Jawad MirYeah.

41:44Nasreen VariyawaThey're looking for books that do not confirm, conform to the standard. So there's a, there's a niche there that I believe that is big enough to tap into, and, I'm glad that is happening because that opens the doors, for other authors who are phenomenal.

42:01Jawad MirAnd I think it's also…

42:02Nasreen VariyawaReally phenomenal

42:02Jawad Mir... It's also happening in the film world too. And… ... The reason for that is audiences are always… Audience, in my view, no studio says that, "Well, we just do whatever audience wants," if they want superhero movies or if they want like, you know, soap opera books or type like that.

42:18Nasreen VariyawaYeah. Yeah.

42:19Jawad MirBut until you give an audience a flavor of something new, and that has happened throughout history, like a new kind of a movie or a new kind of book comes out and it just…

42:30Nasreen VariyawaYeah

42:30Jawad Mir... You know, sparks, and they're like, "Oh, okay." The s… audience is always craving for something new. Always.

42:35Nasreen VariyawaWell, this is the thing…

42:35Jawad MirYou just have to get it

42:36Nasreen Variyawa... About Tukburnie, you know. They said to me, "You're gonna have to change the end because that's not what your audience wants to hear." And I said, "Well, I don't think so. I think this is exactly what they're looking for."

42:53Jawad MirYeah.

42:53Nasreen VariyawaAnd I was right. I'm happy to say I was right. I'm, I'm happy that has been accepted by the audiences.

43:01Jawad MirThat's awesome. I'm looking forward to that now.

43:03Nasreen VariyawaYeah.

43:04Jawad MirAmazing. Thank you so much, Nasreen. I truly appreciate your time.

43:09Nasreen VariyawaThank you so much. Pleasure's been all mine. Thank you for a wonderful interview.

43:13Jawad MirThank you. You have a great day. We'll be in touch.

43:16Nasreen VariyawaThank you so much.

43:17Jawad MirThank you.