'Masters of the Air', Editor, Spencer Averick

0:08Spencer AverickI'm from, I'm from northern California. I love it up there. I wish I could… We did our, we, I've done some audio mixes up in, Skywalker in Marin.

0:18Jawad MirAh.

0:20Spencer AverickI wish I could find a balance…

0:23Jawad MirGo back and sorry

0:23Spencer Averick... Maybe be in both places, but it's difficult.

0:28Jawad MirYeah, you probably need to say, "Scotty, beam me up," right? Just to make it that quick and easy.

0:33Spencer AverickMaybe we're not too far away from that. I don't know.

0:35Jawad MirI don't know. I don't… I think we're, the way we're going with technology, it's right around the corner. You know?

0:41Spencer AverickNah, crazy. You know, put on some of those goggles, you know? The, those new Apple goggles. Who knows?

0:46Jawad MirYes. Those are interesting. Are you looking to get one? I'm kinda curious now that you mentioned it.

0:51Spencer AverickI did a, I did a demo. I have a, I had a friend who had some friends at Apple and they asked me to come, 'cause I was excited about the possibility of actually editing w… in these glasses.

1:02Jawad MirYeah.

1:02Spencer Averick'Cause you can link your laptop to it, right? And…

1:04Jawad MirYeah

1:05Spencer Averick... So why can't I link my, Avid timeline. It would need to be implemented, right? I don't know if there'd be gloves, but the idea in theory of, y… you know, maybe using your voice and your hands to edit things together, like kind of like a throwback to film. It's like, "Hey, I want this clip," or, "No, I want a different bin." And it might be a little more efficient and kinda more fun than using a mouse. I don't know.

1:35Jawad MirIt's funny you mentioned that because I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday, and that's exactly what I said. Because I've, I direct, but I've edited as well, and I was telling them that wouldn't it be cool if we were like Minority Report, you know, just…

1:50Spencer AverickYeah

1:50Jawad Mir... Editing everything and just sweeping everything off, like the source clip and, you know…

1:54Spencer AverickI love it

1:55Jawad Mir... The timeline.

1:57Spencer AverickBig chunky thumbnails, and you could also use your voice. Say, "Pull up bin, pull up scene 40." Right there. Cut…

2:05Jawad MirYeah

2:05Spencer Averick... And put it in.

2:06Jawad MirI can see that happening. I'm pretty sure Apple will…

2:09Spencer AverickYeah

2:09Jawad Mir... Do that down the road.

2:10Spencer AverickYeah.

2:10Jawad MirProbably not now, but down the road.

2:12Spencer AverickYeah.

2:13Jawad MirAwesome, man. Thank you so much for coming. Listen, I've seen the series. Incredible series. I don't know which episodes you worked on, so you have to fill me in on that.

2:23Spencer AverickYeah. Fi… five and six.

2:25Jawad MirFive and six, okay. Yeah. It's, you know, I've been looking forward to it for a long time because I remember when Band of Brothers came out in 2000, and then, I was more, I've always liked Band of Brothers more just because it was, I think, the, one of the first ones and it kinda goes through that whole training process of, you know, how…

2:44Spencer AverickYeah

2:44Jawad Mir... I don't know if you remember specifically. And Masters of the Air was something that I was really looking forward to and for a long time. And, you know…

2:52Spencer AverickYeah

2:52Jawad Mir... It didn't dis… it didn't disappoint at all. Especially for me, I'm not gonna get into any details because we're not allowed to do that, so episodes…

3:01Spencer AverickYeah

3:01Jawad Mir... I would say, 'cause it takes time to build up the story, right? And which it did…

3:04Spencer AverickYeah

3:04Jawad Mir... In the first four episodes. And, I was talking to Richard, who was the DP. I forget how to pronounce his last name. Who was the DP in episode seven and eight. And I was telling him…

3:15Spencer AverickOh, wow

3:16Jawad Mir... How seven and eight really, you know, took off from the previous one. But I also think five and six kinda took it off to another level. Because up until the first four it was this kinda setup of the characters…

3:28Spencer AverickYeah

3:28Jawad Mir... And everything.

3:29Spencer AverickYeah.

3:29Jawad MirSo really enjoyed it. Really enjoyed it.

3:31Spencer AverickNice. Yeah. I watched, you know, Apple and Playtone they're, they keep it tight. So, I, you've seen more than I have maybe.

3:41Jawad MirBut you have worked on episode five and four, five and six, right?

3:44Spencer AverickYeah. Yeah.

3:45Jawad MirYeah.

3:45Spencer AverickBut yeah, it does, watching the episodes that just came out, you know, it does, it starts off slow, right? And, one thing I remember about Band of Brothers is that you were latched onto those characters, right?

3:57Jawad MirYeah.

3:57Spencer AverickDamian Lewis and there was something about, just you were on the ride with these guys. With this one I think it's a little more challenging. Maybe there, I think there's more characters. There's all this stuff happening and so you need a l… you need, hey, three episode, three episodes to really latch on to some of these characters and storylines.

4:19Jawad MirYeah.

4:20Spencer AverickBut it's pretty great, yeah.

4:21Jawad MirI think, I think the times have changed, right? Like t… ... Even 10 years ago, forget 20 years ago.

4:26Spencer AverickYeah.

4:26Jawad MirSeries used to be different than they are now. So there's all this other stuff that you have to adhere to, like trying to make sure that the younger audience taps in, which is hard for something like this, right?

4:37Spencer AverickYeah.

4:37Jawad MirIt's really hard.

4:40Spencer AverickYeah. I know. At least they have A…

4:42Jawad MirBut…

4:42Spencer AverickAt least we have Austin Butler. Just the face alone will bring people in.

4:47Jawad MirYeah. So tell me, how did you... I always like to know the journey of everyone, 'cause we all…

4:53Spencer AverickYeah

4:53Jawad Mir... Have our journeys.

4:54Spencer AverickYeah.

4:54Jawad MirHow did you get into film editing? What inspired you to be who you are today?

5:00Spencer AverickYeah. I was kind of the one of those cliche kids who, loved m… movies in the '80s. You know? Grew up in the '80s and the early '90s and, you know, movies were it for me. E.T. And Stand by Me and all those kinda classic movies. And, they just, you know, stuck with me more than other kids. I can still remember the feelings I have, that I had watching those movies, and I take that feeling into my love for movies now. And, so when I was a kid I, m… my parents bought me a VHS camcorder, you know?

5:39Spencer AverickWhen I was like 12 or 13, and I was editing in camera with that thing. I could never put it down. I just loved the idea. And I remember thinking, "Wow, I wish I could really like put these things together." I didn't know what I w… what that was, 'cause it was before computer editing. And so, yeah, I just, I just loved it. And my mom, she recognized that in me, and she kept pushing me even though I never thought of it as, like, a job or a career or anything. She pushed me to do a local access, channel internship. So I always kept involved. Then I went to San Francisco State University, and I studied television production in there, 'cause I didn't know…

6:24Spencer Averick... That I really, film was it. I just wanted to be around cameras and studios, and so I did that program, and then, and then I just came down to LA. Just gravitated to LA, knew I wanted to be involved, and, met... I started to meet people and do little shorts, and I started editing kinda little funny shorts for people and realized that it was really coming natural to me to do that, and I was getting these big reactions. You know, put two images together, and then this person's laughing, and that really felt good, you know? So, I pursued it even more. I went to Avid, school for two years and learned Avid and, yeah, then just kinda meet people through lunches and coffees and, you know…

7:15Jawad MirYeah

7:15Spencer Averick... The old, the old way, yeah. Yeah.

7:18Jawad MirIt still is the way. I mean, you know…

7:21Spencer AverickYeah

7:21Jawad Mir... You make more connections by peeting, meeting people in person as opposed to over Zooms and…

7:27Spencer AverickI know

7:27Jawad Mir... You know, i-i-in text messages. But that's awesome, man. It…

7:30Spencer AverickYeah

7:30Jawad Mir... You kinda put me on a memory lane myself. I remember I used to edit between two VCRs.

7:36Spencer AverickOh.

7:36Jawad MirI used to literally just get up at 4:00 in the morning, and I would take, like, family videos and ch-ch-ch…

7:42Spencer AverickOh

7:42Jawad Mir... You know, go back and forth. So yeah, that was, that was fun.

7:45Spencer AverickWow.

7:45Jawad MirThat was fun.

7:47Spencer AverickSo you would record... You'd have a blank tape on one, and you'd record a piece and then stop and then record another piece?

7:53Jawad MirYeah.

7:54Spencer AverickWow.

7:54Jawad MirYeah.

7:54Spencer AverickThat's great.

7:55Jawad MirI remember my brother's wedding, this was ni… 2000, I think. Or '19, something like around that. That's how I edited.

8:03Spencer AverickOh, you did VHS?

8:03Jawad MirI lit… I did the whole editing between two VCRs.

8:08Spencer AverickOh my God. Wow.

8:09Jawad MirBut it was fun. Enjoyed it a lot.

8:11Spencer AverickYeah.

8:11Jawad MirEnjoyed it a lot. I mean, now we have everything.

8:13Spencer AverickIt takes a certain kind of person to love that. Some people would be turned off by it. You know, the, it sounds tedious, but we love it.

8:20Jawad MirYeah. So, you know, you said '80s kid, right? Like, a '90s kid.

8:24Spencer AverickYeah.

8:24Jawad MirI mean, that's something. When, one of the titles that you mentioned, E.T., Spielberg, right? And I'm sure there's other movies that you've seen, Gremlins, Back to the Future, Saving Private Ryan, and all that stuff.

8:35Spencer AverickYeah.

8:35Jawad MirHow was, like, when you first found out that there was an interest, that, in this, on you being on part of this project…

8:42Spencer AverickYeah

8:42Jawad Mir... Just tell me that story, how that happened and what you felt when that happened.

8:48Spencer AverickI was super excited. I had never done something kind of like this kind of size for a TV show and s… action-packed and all these characters. So, yeah, just to be in the world of Playtone and Spielberg was kinda surreal. I, it was a little bit of a different experience for me because, you know, th… this show took a while to come out. And as, right before I hopped on with you, I was trying to remember when I cut this, 'cause it was in COVID. It was.

9:24Jawad MirYes. I was gonna, yeah.

9:26Spencer AverickYeah. It wasn't like, you know, it was a little, everything was different, and I did the whole thing from home, aside from, like, the very end. But basically, the directors reached out to me, Ryan Bod… Ryan Fleck and Anna Boden and, team of directors and, I was on the shortlist, and they reached out to me, and we had a great talk, and, I was super excited. It was great, and it was, it met all the expectations, working on something like this. And I didn't know what to expect with this, they call it the volume stage. You know, this sort of green screen replacement.

10:07Spencer AverickEvery, it was new to everybody. It was new to the actors, I think. And, so I was just kinda coming in and trying to learn, you know? But always keeping the mentality that I have, which is, character, emotion first, story first. But I'm, I was honored to be a part of this world.

10:30Jawad MirYeah.

10:31Spencer AverickYeah.

10:31Jawad MirAnd was it just through, like, a recommendation, which some, you know…

10:34Spencer AverickYeah

10:34Jawad Mir... Happens most of the time in Hollywood?

10:37Spencer AverickWhat's that? Sorry.

10:40Jawad MirI said, was it mostly through a recommendation that you…

10:42Spencer AverickOh

10:42Jawad Mir... Kinda got onto this?

10:43Spencer AverickYeah. Ryan and Anna, they found my name from somewhere and reached out directly.

10:51Jawad MirThat's awesome.

10:52Spencer AverickIt was great. Yeah.

10:53Jawad MirSo when you were editing this, I'm assuming at least the production was more or less done with the entire series, or at least h… at least half of it.

11:05Spencer AverickYeah

11:05Jawad Mir... Did you, were there anything, like, when you were editing episode five and six, to, just to figure out where y… where the story is at…

11:14Spencer AverickYeah

11:14Jawad Mir... Had you seen any rough cut of the episodes one, two, three, and four, or were you briefed on it?

11:19Spencer AverickNo. It was a challenge, man, because, it was very lock and key. I read the script. I think I read the first two episode scripts. So I had a, I had a foundation for where these guys were coming from. But I hadn't seen them. I hadn't seen any dailies. Everything was separate. And so coming in with episodes five and six, you know, it's right in the middle of the story, g… kind of heading t… toward the end, and so the characters are in a certain space. You know, mentality-wise, they're in a certain space. And so, I just had to sort of talk to the directors a little bit about it, and they gave me some in… some intel. But, I was a little, it was a little bit in a bubble for a while. You know? And

12:10Spencer AverickBut at the same time, it's, it was... I kinda got an idea for what,.. I wanna say things about the episode. This ha… this, I can't say anything about it, 'cause it comes out before.

12:21Jawad MirYeah, no, we can't, we can't... Yeah. I, yeah. Which…

12:24Spencer AverickBut, you know…

12:24Jawad MirIt's fine. It's okay

12:25Spencer Averick... These guys were in there. These guys were, in the, in the S, you know? So...

12:32Jawad MirYeah. Did you... Was this, like, your firsthand experience with military

12:40Spencer AverickYeah

12:40Jawad Mir... Like, aside from watching movies, like, you know, just to be in that s… kind of space? Is that something that the first time you did?

12:47Spencer AverickYeah, definitely. Never done, I've never done a military movie. And I've never done anything, with this much action, honestly. It was all in the sky, so it was different. But there was also some combat action. There were some, ground fighting scenes that I cut. So it was fun. I got to flex this muscle that I had never flexed before, and it's different. It's, it's, it's similar, but it's different in that, you know, when I'm editing a scene, a regular dialogue scene or just a regular movie scene, I sort of break it down into moments when I'm first cutting it. You know, we're at the table, we're talking. There's a moment there. Get up, walk over to the bathroom. There's a moment there. So I sort of compartmentalize it in my head so I can, really focus in on the details. But with this, with fighting scenes and with everything happening so fast, I had to do that to sort of an extreme level. It was like, I'm gonna break up 10 sec… I'm gonna grab this 10 seconds and cut it up, and then...

13:52Spencer AverickYou know, so it was, it was me sort of doing what I always do, but on a even more granular level, because everything was happening so fast. And inside these planes, I mean, we had, I think there were six or seven cameras inside the plane. And it got confusing. You know, you had to... I drew out a map of this plane, so, you know, I knew where, when I was cutting to somebody, where I was in the plane and where they were looking, and some of the gunners are looking backwards. Some of them are sideways. There's a top gunner. There's pilots. There's a navigator. So it took me a minute to wrap my head around that. So yeah, not only was it the first time editing something like this, but it was, like, kind of extreme at the same time.

14:39Jawad MirYeah.

14:40Spencer AverickYeah.

14:40Jawad MirI mean, you know, when you, like in Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, and I'm sure with these, with Pacific, and I'm sure with this series as well…

14:49Spencer AverickYeah

14:49Jawad Mir... The actors had to go through boot camp, right? Like, just to kind of…

14:53Spencer AverickRight, yeah

14:54Jawad Mir... Be in that space. As an editor, considering you had not done anything like this before, not in terms of size, but just to be in that mind of, i… in a military mind

15:06Spencer AverickYeah

15:06Jawad Mir... Like I know, I know, so my, I come from a military family. My dad served in the Army for 30 years. And I know a lot of people have a hard time being in that mindset as I am…

15:17Spencer AverickYeah

15:17Jawad Mir... Who are not. So did you watch any of those, older films to understand the psyche, or was it just going in point blank?

15:26Spencer AverickI watched Band of Brothers. I rewatched Band of Brothers, 'cause I had seen it when it first came out and I loved it, so I rewatched that. But that was about it. That was about all I did to sort of get into the mindset. Yeah, more so about, how it's, the aesthetic of it, and sort of how it's presented. But, yeah, not so much, like, military mindset. Kinda, you know, for me, it's always…

15:51Jawad MirYeah

15:51Spencer Averick... Character and emotion and everything else.

15:54Jawad MirYeah.

15:55Spencer AverickYeah.

15:55Jawad MirYeah.

15:55Spencer AverickBut yeah.

15:56Jawad MirComes in later. Absolutely.

15:58Spencer AverickYeah.

15:58Jawad MirW… you said you edited this during COVID, so was it mostly done over Zoom or equivalent, I'm guessing, with the dude who worked…

16:07Spencer AverickYeah

16:07Jawad Mir... With directors?

16:08Spencer AverickYeah. And they were still shooting when I was editing, and, they were in England shooting. And, so for the most part, it was. We had a, what's that other program? Evercast. We were doing some Evercast, so they were kind of, we were editing together a little bit. And then in the end, I went out to New York for three weeks to finish it with them, so we kind of met there together in the end. But yeah, the whole process was a little weird. It was, I think I had done one project in COVID prior, and it was really clunky. You know, we didn't have junk desktop and all these things they have now, so, you know, it was, they, production would bring in all the equipment and, set me up in my living room and, the whole thing felt weird. But it worked out, you know? It worked out. It was fine. Yeah.

17:06Jawad MirYeah. That's cool.

17:08Spencer AverickYeah

17:08Jawad Mir... You know, when you, when you were editing something like this, and especially during COVID, 'cause I edited a feature during COVID and it wasn't fun, you know? Just…

17:18Spencer AverickYeah

17:18Jawad Mir... Because you're, there is the feature, the story that you're trying to wrap your head around, then there's all this other stuff that's going on…

17:25Spencer AverickYeah, I know

17:25Jawad Mir... You know, in the world.

17:27Spencer AverickI know.

17:27Jawad MirAnd what was, what was that like? Like, were there hard days where you were trying to focus and trying to figure out, you know, to kind of just zone yourself out from the external noises?

17:37Spencer AverickYeah. Yeah, actually it was, it was nice, honestly.

17:41Jawad MirIt was better.

17:42Spencer AverickYeah. C… sometimes editing's, like, my little safe space, you know? It's like, depending on how stressful it is at the moment, but if things are tough in life or something's going on, I can get back to my, you know, my baby, so to speak. And, it's where I feel comfortable. And, so yeah, it was a little bit of balancing, and also have…... Kids, and, you know, they were home from school, so I was balancing that. Luckily, I have a little space outside of my house that I can go to, but…

18:20Jawad MirYeah

18:20Spencer Averick... Yeah, just remembering back at that whole time, 'cause it was so new. So it was nice to jump into a story and put this thing together and put this puzzle together, but it was also kinda stressful at the same time.

18:35Jawad MirYeah

18:35Spencer Averick... New experience. What was your experience like?

18:40Jawad MirEditing, like I don't want to edit anymore because that's never been my focus.

18:46Spencer AverickOkay.

18:46Jawad MirBut I've always edited my own o… own films.

18:49Spencer AverickAh, right.

18:49Jawad MirBut m… for me it was challenging because, and I agree with you, editing is my safe space, too.

18:55Spencer AverickYeah. Okay.

18:56Jawad MirIt's really like, you know, it just kinda puts you in that zone where nothing else exists.

19:00Spencer AverickYeah.

19:00Jawad MirBut I think because of the nature of my documentaries was, human rights, so they were very depress…

19:07Spencer AverickYeah

19:07Jawad Mir... Depressing, so trying to go through that and then dealing with COVID…... It d… it wasn't, it wasn't fun. But I think it brought the best out in the film because of that environment.

19:17Spencer Averickhuh.

19:17Jawad MirBecause my mindset was in that space.

19:21Spencer AverickYeah, and it's sort of your, you're sort of just raw with everything going on, and…

19:25Jawad MirYeah

19:26Spencer Averick... And also

19:26Jawad MirYeah, so you're just dealing with it

19:27Spencer Averick... 0.0. Yeah.

19:28Jawad MirYeah. What was, well, were there any challenges or any kind of interesting stories… ... You know, when you were editing a scene or an episode? Anything that comes to mind, without talking about the specifics of the scene or the episodes.

19:45Spencer AverickYeah. I think these, I think, you know, in one of my episodes, I think in every episode has a, like, extended, battle scene in the air. Mine does. And that was hard, because the volume stage that they used, the 360, screen that replaced the green screen, it was, they were, the actors were responding to things in real time, 'cause they had sort of the video screens where they created the content. So but it wasn't perfect, and I don't know how it could be, 'cause it's sort of new. But, you know, we're doing multiple takes. We have seven cameras and 12 positions in the, in the plane, and say a German fighter zooms by the pilot, in take one and it's perfect, but it's, takes time for them to sort of rewind it and do it again. So there was a lot of just the actors reacting to nothing. And then they would be created later, although it was in green screen.

20:56Spencer AverickSo it took a lot of time to not only build it, just a… as a narrative without the sort of s… the suspense, without even building in the suspense yet, and without even seeing what they're seeing so much. It was like the first pass is just like, okay, let's be on the person who's talking right now, whoever's talking. Also, we don't see their faces, you know? So that's another challenge. So it's all about the eyes. So let's just build this thing, whoever's talking, whoever's reacting, very one-to-one, let's see it. Wrap my mind around what's happening, 'cause it's an intense battle scene, and there's…

21:42Jawad MirYeah

21:43Spencer Averick... There's moves happening in the air that, you know, they're trying to trick the Germans. They're trying to maneuver i… in the best way possible with these huge, you know, planes. And so it just took so many passes to get to a place where, okay, now I can finesse it and be on somebody else for di… for somebody else's dialogue and sort of get, finesse it in there and massage it and make it good. It was like, you know, I worked on this thing for so long, and then I went out to New York to work with the directors for the final three weeks, and it wasn't until the final three weeks that we really locked it in. And we were also starting to get, pre-vis cards, you know, visu… animated, temporary visual effects so we could sort of…

22:33Jawad MirYeah

22:33Spencer Averick... Visualize the scene

22:35Jawad Mir... Placeholders.

22:35Spencer AverickYeah. But it gets confusing in there. It really does, you know, with all of the, all of the positions.

22:45Jawad MirYeah.

22:46Spencer AverickSo…

22:46Jawad MirAnd I'm glad you mentioned that because one of the things that I noticed with this series, and it's evident in the first two episodes, so I can say that… ... Is that, you know, you would expect, if you're watching, like, a movie, like a Top Gun or anything else, you would expect the scenes, like I was expecting the scenes in the plane, like the battle sequences, to be, to end rather earlier than they did. So these were like…

23:13Spencer AverickYeah

23:13Jawad Mir... Long scenes.

23:14Spencer AverickYeah.

23:14Jawad MirThroughout the entire series, right?

23:16Spencer AverickI know.

23:17Jawad MirAnd then, and then what you said was so key is that trying to figure out what the hell is going on, because you have, you know, I don't know the terminology, but obviously besides the pilots, you have the crew in the back, the person who is aiming at the other, the German fighters.

23:34Spencer AverickYeah.

23:34Jawad MirAnd then what I, what I really appreciated, and I hope people do, is that any time you get, like, a, you know, so for example, the camera is on the back of one of the pilots…

23:47Spencer AverickYeah

23:47Jawad Mir... And then this way, and then you see the sky through the, and you see the smoke coming out and the plane. Like, that to me was incredible. Like, the detail.

23:57Spencer AverickOh, the detail. Yeah. I know. I was…

24:00Jawad MirIt was fantastic

24:01Spencer Averick... I did the best I could, with that, and, you know, a lot of it was not finished when I finished. I finished and as far as the visual effects And, you know, I hadn't seen my episodes. They brought me in to show me much later, but I hadn't seen it with all the visual effects done. So I was like, "I hope this works," you know? And luckily when I did watch it, my cuts were not much different than what, when I handed it off to them. It was just the sort of massaging in the visual effects. But what I did worked. And when I watched the first episode of Masters of the Air, I was like, "This whole thing works." It's, it's... Like you said, there's, there are extended scenes, but there's something about the way that with the volume stage and the way that these characters are in there, and there's a lot of windows, and wherever you are, you can sort of see the outside.

25:04Spencer AverickAnd so I was pleased because it, they use, they're using this new technology, and it worked. It felt like you're in there. You felt like you're in the plane, and you understand sort of the geography, I think. It works.

25:18Spencer AverickAnd, I didn't wanna leave. I didn't wanna get out of there. It wasn't like, "Oh, just an action scene, and let's move on to the narrative."

25:26Jawad MirYeah.

25:26Spencer AverickIt was like, "This is awesome." You know, I'm in there, and I feel the air, and I feel the sky. And, so I was pleased. And I can't wait for people to see, you know, all the episodes.

25:40Jawad MirYeah.

25:40Spencer AverickSo, but…

25:40Jawad MirYeah, I mean, to... I'm gonna mention one thing. This stands out. I remember which episode…

25:45Spencer AverickYeah

25:46Jawad Mir... It was, it was. It doesn't really give away anything. There's a scene where a plane lands in the bushes, and, you can see from the windows the bushes flickering like this, right? And it was like so cool.

25:59Spencer AverickOh.

25:59Jawad MirLike, just to see that amount of…

26:00Spencer AverickNice

26:00Jawad Mir... 'cause it just, it's just little things. I mean, I don't know…

26:03Spencer AverickYeah

26:03Jawad Mir... A lot of people might pick it up, but it does something to you on a subconscious level, too, that makes you realize that you're in a real space, and you feel like you are…

26:11Spencer AverickYeah

26:11Jawad Mir... In the cockpit, right?

26:12Spencer AverickTotally. It, I mean, it's a difference between, you know, Star Wars, the original ones, and then the later ones. It's like, they're all great, but you know that this thing is not real, you know…

26:23Jawad MirYeah

26:23Spencer Averick... When you're watching it, versus I'm looking at, you know, Darth Vader and all these things. It's real. It's there. It's sitting there. It's physical. And so I think this was the first kind of like intense fighting, scene in the air or anything like it that didn't feel like green screen. It felt real for the most part.

26:46Jawad MirYeah.

26:46Spencer AverickSo it's, yeah, it's great.

26:47Jawad MirIt did to me. It did to me.

26:49Spencer AverickYeah. Yeah.

26:50Jawad MirWhat, who, whose work do you get inspired by from an editing standpoint? Anybody, I mean, Walter Murch is one of the biggest names, right? But aside from him, is some… somebody you appreciate or you look up to in terms of the work that they do in editing?

27:08Spencer AverickYeah, Walter Murch was a big one for me when I was, starting out. I read all his books. I was like, did all of the things that he did. He would talk about doing scene cards, you know, and, I just basically copied everything he did in the beginning. You know, I don't really have... I, it's hard to say. I look at films so differently with editing.

27:30Jawad MirYeah

27:30Spencer Averick... You know, it's, it's like I don't really see styles in editing. But I just try to follow people like Walter Murch's and Thelma Schoonmaker and their sort of, you know, their process. I'm way more into the process. But no, it's hard to, it's hard to sort of judge

27:53Jawad MirThat's fine

27:53Spencer Averick... Where…

27:54Jawad MirI guess m… let me rephrase that. What are some of your favorite films that you think…

28:00Spencer AverickYeah

28:00Jawad Mir... From editing standpoint?

28:02Spencer AverickI always loved, you know, and this is also a little cliche to say, but I always just loved, you know, Kubrick movies. I loved the editing in Kubrick movies. It's what really got me into, loving the art of film. Before I saw those movies, I was, I was just a movie guy. I loved movies, but when I saw A Clockwork Orange, I was like, oh, this is an art form, and I see what he's doing in the frame, and I see how long he's holding on shots and, you know, and wide shots, fill the frame with beautiful, set decoration and stay on the shot, you know? And, so, you know, basically, kind of '70s, you know, The French Connection and movies like that where it just felt raw, and I could see,.. The Conversation was a big one for me.

29:05Spencer Averick... And obviously the Godfathers and just the rawness of the art form, you know, sticks out to me…

29:14Jawad MirYeah

29:14Spencer Averick... In all of those movies and like, I just wanna, that's what I wanna do. I love those movies.

29:21Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's, it's so true, man. Like, I really now appreciate... I mean, I did before, but in the last se… seven, eight years, I have begun to appreciate films where there's less cuts.

29:34Spencer AverickYeah.

29:34Jawad MirNot for the hell of it. Not for the hell of it, but just…

29:37Spencer AverickYeah

29:37Jawad Mir... Obviously with the story, right? Like, and I see stuff now…

29:40Spencer AverickYeah

29:40Jawad Mir... Where there's just nonstop, like, every two-second cutting, and I was reading somewhere…

29:46Spencer Averickhuh

29:46Jawad Mir... There's n… you know, because of YouTube and social media generation, people have a, th… they have done a study that you, y… people lose attention if you don't cut after three, four seconds. I mean, that to me is mind-boggling.

30:00Spencer AverickI know.

30:00Jawad MirLike, what can you absorb in three to four seconds?

30:03Spencer AverickI know. It's like you have to be on to the next thing, or else you're gonna be, your mind's gonna go somewhere else.

30:09Jawad MirYeah.

30:09Spencer AverickYeah. That's, that's crazy. I know. You… it's like, it's like I can feel that influence, you know, when I'm editing. I can feel the influence of all the media that I consume…

30:20Jawad MirYeah

30:21Spencer Averick... With whatever it is. And it's like even when I just watch movies, you know, Oscar movies or whatever, Anatomy of a Fall was great, the editing in that. I love the editing… ... In that movie. And any kind of, you know, Poor Things and all of Yorgos' movies, those are brilliantly done, brilliantly cut. But there is a... I see it, you know? I see the quick cutting and it's kinda cool, right? A… and it's, it's kinda slick and, but it's not what I wanna do, you know? And I, yeah, I d… definitely don't wanna cut when you don't need to cut, you know? And there's something about, too, I think if you don't cut when, say, that three second that you were just talking about, like…

31:12Spencer Averick... People will start to, think about something else. If you can push past that moment and get a few seconds later, then it turns into something else. It doesn't feel like a sloppy edit or anything. It feels like a deliberate, art form. And, you know, look at this frame and your mind starts to, do other things, like put yourself in, into the position of the character, think a little deeper about the story. Obviously it has to be, a nice-looking shot and a good story. But

31:50Jawad MirYeah, of course. Those things matter.

31:51Spencer AverickYeah. But I like to, when I don't have to cut, that's

31:58Jawad MirYeah

31:58Spencer Averick... That's better.

32:00Jawad MirI think, I think one of the cool things that I really like, about Zemeckis, Robert Zemeckis, Steven Spielberg, but, you know, is that their ability to hold the shot, but especially with Spielberg, and if there was one thing that comes to my mind, I don't even know why when I think about this that's the only shot that comes to my mind even though there's hundreds of others

32:23Jawad Mir... Is instead of cutting you the way the, you know, the camera movement and the coverage, you bring in one, two, three, four characters into the same frame, and a great example of that in my view is there's a scene in Minority Report when, Tom Cruise's character

32:40Jawad Mir... Is confronted by Colin Firth's character in the elevator. And the ca… and it's a small space, right? Like whether it's…

32:47Spencer AverickYeah

32:47Jawad Mir... A set or not, it's physically s… and everything moves around them, and it just keeps you…

32:52Spencer AverickYeah

32:52Jawad Mir... Into the scene.

32:53Spencer AverickYeah.

32:53Jawad MirAnd there's no cutting.

32:54Spencer AverickRight.

32:54Jawad MirThere's no over the shoulder.

32:55Spencer AverickI know. It's, it's a, i… it's really, helps. W… and again, back to '70s movies, whenever I turn on a '70s movie it's like, are these masters? You know, they're master shots and things are happening in them. And then when you do cut to a close-up, it's impactful. An, other films that I love the editing in is basically, like, most of Paul Thomas Anderson's movies. You know, Phantom Thread was one where, there's something about the editing in that I loved. Like, you know, c… talk about staying on a wide and then, you know, there was a breakfast scene with Daniel Day-Lewis, and, you know, the girlfriend was, putting the butter on the toast and annoying him, and they sort of stay in, stay in this, like, semi-master. And then, you know, you're building up the tension, building up the tension, and then right at the perfect moment, boom, it's a close-up on Daniel Day-Lewis. And it's like…

33:54Jawad MirYeah

33:55Spencer Averick... Oh, he is not happy. And it was a s… such a great use of don't need to go boom around to the overs. Don't need to, like, cover every d… piece of dialogue. But when you jump into that close-up, it's gonna land, you know? But I…

34:11Jawad MirYeah

34:11Spencer Averick... Yeah, I agree. You know, you know, it's always, you know, too much coverage, I think, s… it's a little chaotic.

34:18Jawad MirYeah, 100%. Coming back to Masters of the Air, you know, h… are you ex… obviously you're excited, but do your kids, are they old enough to know that you worked on this? And are you planning to sit down, like, a family viewing, or are they too young for something like this?

34:35Spencer AverickMy kids are seven and four, so a little young, to be learning about Hitler, I think. But maybe not. I don't know. But, I don't know. My seven-year-old, I did show him the, trailer, and he thought that was really cool. I'm trying to think if it would be okay for him. He, you know, he's seen some movies, so, I think most of our movies, unfortunately, their kids are not ready for. I did a movie, although I did, I do tell him about them, and, they are interested. And they ask questions. And, you know, I did a biopic on Martin Luther King Jr. A long time ago, and so they learned about him. They didn't see the movie. There's some violence in there. But, a… it's getting to that point where they might be able to see. I hear a lot of people say, though, "My kids are not interested in anything that I do." You know?

35:33Jawad MirYeah.

35:34Spencer AverickMy son, my son is a movie kid. He picked it up from me, so, I wanna show him the Masters of the Air episode because it's, it's so cool. I don't know. It's, it gets a little graphic, as we've seen in episode one, when soldiers die, in these planes. They show it, you know?

35:54Jawad MirYeah.

35:54Spencer AverickSo maybe a couple years.

35:57Jawad MirYeah, no, I feel the same way about…

36:00Spencer AverickYeah

36:00Jawad Mir... It's true what they say about your kids not wanting to see your movies. I mean, my kids…

36:05Spencer AverickYeah

36:05Jawad Mir... I think they saw my first film, which was at a festival, and after that, everything I've made…

36:11Spencer AverickDon't care

36:11Jawad Mir... No clue. No, don't care.

36:13Spencer AverickYeah.

36:13Jawad MirDo not care. I mean, they're on Amazon and everything. They do not wanna see it, which is fine. It's just the way it is.

36:19Spencer AverickThat's what actors say, too Like, you know…

36:20Jawad MirYeah

36:20Spencer Averick... Matt Damon and all these people that kids don't care about it at all, so.

36:23Jawad MirYeah. I know, I know. It's, it's, it's a very gen…... Normal thing. It's a very normal thing.

36:28Spencer AverickYeah.

36:28Jawad MirI think even Spielberg said long time ago, he's like, he gets his kids... He tries to convince his kids to see his films, and they wouldn't. Then he would give them, like, 20 bucks and, you know, just watch h… his films, and also o… older films, like, you know, from the '50s and the '60s.

36:44Spencer AverickYeah.

36:44Jawad MirAnd they still wouldn't, so.

36:46Spencer AverickYeah. I know.

36:49Jawad MirYeah.

36:49Spencer AverickI'm trying to, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to s… have my kids see m… you know, maybe not '50s and '60s, but '80s. Like, let's start.

36:58Jawad MirYeah.

36:59Spencer AverickLet's not just jump into the animated films now. Let's see films that were drawn, you know? Disney, old Disney films. So maybe there's a way to sort of reverse their, built-in lack of attention a little bit, you know?

37:15Jawad MirYeah.

37:15Spencer AverickBefore they start…

37:16Jawad MirI…

37:16Spencer Averick... To... Yeah.

37:18Jawad MirYeah. I think I noticed that with my kids, they started appreciating the '80s and the '90s probably in the last year and a half or two, like when they were post-tw… post-10, like 11, 12 years old.

37:31Spencer AverickOkay. Nice.

37:32Jawad MirAnd especially I think one of the reasons they got into it is because my son, he is a huge fan of Christopher Nolan, right? So…

37:41Spencer AverickOkay

37:41Jawad Mir... Like, he…

37:42Spencer AverickBatman.

37:42Jawad MirIn… in… Inception. Well, Batman they just started watching last week, but he had seen…

37:46Spencer AverickOh, yeah

37:46Jawad Mir... Inception, Interstellar, and... So I think if you…

37:50Spencer AverickWow

37:50Jawad Mir... Find something that they like, y… they app… they appreciate the '80s more. My kids are doing the same thing now. Like, they appreciate, they see something, they see story. I'm surprised my kids say the word, "It had a better story," you know, which is really good to hear.

38:05Spencer AverickNice. Yeah.

38:06Jawad MirYeah.

38:06Spencer AverickYeah. They're in the, they're in the world, man. There's no getting out of it. They you know, my son, he understands, like, good versus evil, and the, you know, all the stories have this sort of evil character and he's, he gets…

38:18Jawad MirYeah

38:18Spencer Averick... Like these little seeds that are planted in the narrative, and so it's pretty great. And you know, it's funny too, when I show him movies from the '80s, I'm like, "This is gonna be really scary," you know? I'm like, "'Cause I, when I was a kid, this scene in Ghostbusters scared the hell out of me." And then he watches it and he laughs at it, you know? So it's funny. K… it's just different now.

38:42Jawad MirIt's different times, for sure. I mean, what we used to be petrified or even just not comfortable watching, it's like, you know…

38:49Spencer AverickYeah

38:49Jawad Mir... Because social media and YouTube, everything is there.

38:51Spencer AverickYeah. Yeah.

38:54Jawad MirWhat's next for you, man? Anything exciting that you can talk about?

38:58Spencer AverickI got a movie out in the theater right now called Origin that I did with Ava DuVernay.

39:04Jawad MirOrigin. Okay.

39:06Spencer AverickYeah. It's, it's a, it's a movie about a woman who, wrote a, wrote a book called Caste.

39:15Jawad MirOkay.

39:16Spencer AverickAnd it's a different kind of movie. It's, you know, it's not a typical narrative, a… and it was, I'm really proud of it. And, it's a movie about a woman who's trying to write a book, but she can't, sort of put the pieces together in her head. So it's a process, of, form… formulating a thesis for a book.

39:43Jawad MirSo it's…

39:43Spencer AverickSo that's out. And, it's gonna be in the documentary…

39:48Jawad MirI think you did a film called, Journey to Sundance, right? If I'm not mistaken.

39:53Spencer AverickThat movie... Actually, IMDb works in funny ways. That movie I…

39:59Jawad MirOkay, so it's not you.

40:01Spencer AverickN… I worked on that for, a short amount of time 20 years ago.

40:07Jawad MirReally?

40:08Spencer AverickBut it's the first thing on my IMDb, and I can't seem to move it out of the way, which is... And I didn't even edit it. I, like, helped with it literally 20 years ago.

40:22Jawad MirSo this movie took 20 years to make?

40:25Spencer AverickYeah. I don't know. I'm not in touch with the director anymore.

40:28Jawad MirSo I'm actually on IMDb Pro, and there's one, two, three, four, five, six editors, and your name is the first one. Maybe because of the last name, I'm guessing. Yeah, it's alphabetically by the last name.

40:40Spencer AverickOh, it's alphabetical.

40:40Jawad MirYeah.

40:41Spencer AverickYeah.

40:41Jawad MirSo yeah. The…

40:43Spencer AverickWhen I moved to LA, it was the first thing I did. I helped them with that, and it's about, you know, is Sundance independent or is it not, you know? So.

40:53Jawad MirYeah. Well, I don't think it's now anymore. Maybe back then it was.

40:56Spencer AverickYeah, exactly.

40:56Jawad MirI don't think it's independent anymore. Awesome, man. This has been a great,.. What would you like, who would you like to work with, like, if there was a bucket list?

41:06Spencer AverickHm.

41:06Jawad MirJust curious.

41:09Spencer AverickYeah. I'm a huge fan of Yorgos' films. I love, Denis films like Arrival and

41:25Jawad MirHm

41:25Spencer Averick... You know, I just love film, and I, you know, like I was saying, I love films from the '70s. I love the, I love j… you know, just the craft of filmmaking. And so I'm just, I'm open to working with people who are, talented filmmakers, who love, who love the craft too. That's about it. Yeah.

41:54Jawad MirHm. And just one last question, man, and then I'll let you go. What do you hope people take away with Masters of Air?

42:03Spencer AverickI think, you know, it's, these guys were kids, and, you know, overall it's just paying homage to these, to these men and women and to their families who are around now. And, you know, th… these were suicide missions. They really were, and they were a huge… help to winning World War II.

42:32Jawad MirYep.

42:32Spencer AverickI don't know if, what would have happened without them, you know? W… you know, I know they were actors, but just watching them before battle, you know, knowing that, knowing what they were going into, that there was a... It was 50/50 they were gonna die, you know? And it just, it puts everything into perspective when you're watching a kid who just going out that day, they probably will die, you know? So you know, we don't wanna forget these guys, you know? We don't wanna forget these people who sacrificed…

43:10Jawad MirYeah

43:10Spencer Averick... Everything, you know? So that's, that's the, that's the main thing.

43:16Jawad MirRight. And I'm so glad, I don't know if it was intentional or if it was more about, budgete… budgets and all that it... Band of Brothers came out in 2000, Pacific in 2010, and you know…

43:28Spencer AverickYeah

43:28Jawad Mir... Pacific masters of the air now. So it kind of educates a new decade…

43:33Spencer AverickYeah

43:33Jawad Mir... Or generation in a…

43:35Spencer AverickYeah

43:35Jawad Mir... In a different way, which is, which is really good to see.

43:37Spencer AverickTotally. Totally. I know. We're getting further and further away from that time, so, you know, it's hard to watch war movies, but, I think it's good to keep it in the zeitgeist.

43:48Jawad Mir100%. 100%.

43:50Spencer AverickYeah.

43:50Jawad MirThank you so much, Spencer, for your time.

43:52Spencer AverickThank you very much.

43:53Jawad MirHad a pleasure.

43:54Spencer AverickIt was a good time.

43:54Jawad MirYeah. Likewise, looking forward to seeing more of your work, and hope you get to enjoy the rest of the series.

44:00Spencer AverickOkay. Thank you very much.

44:02Jawad MirAll right, Spencer. Take care.

44:04Spencer AverickBye.

44:04Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.