'Polite Society', Costume Designer, PC Williams

0:06Jawad MirPolite Society came out here in Toronto. It… I think it's, like, probably just one theater for now at least. I went to see it and, really enjoyed it, so thank you for, doing the work that you did, and really loved the co… you know, the wardrobe and everything.

0:24PC WilliamsOh.

0:24Jawad MirSo appreciate it.

0:25PC WilliamsThank you. Well, one s… one theater is better than no theaters, so that's great.

0:30Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. It's actually good because it's been a while... I remember when I used to go to university… At the time, you know, in the late '90s, early 2000, it was very common for, like, small independent films to come in one theater or two, and then they slowly…

0:49Jawad MirAnd that kind of stopped in the middle, at least to my knowledge. It wasn't as much as it used to be. And this is like, it's a good thing because then it builds up that excitement and that hype.

0:59PC WilliamsYeah.

0:59Jawad MirAnd if, you know, the film is good, which it is, and, we really appreciate it, all the work that you did.

1:06PC WilliamsOh, thank you. It was such a... It was one of those projects that's such a... I think back on it with such fondness and, such joy. Like, especially the b… especially what we shot in January, which was, like, the wedding and the fight between Rahila and Ria and that moment, those sort of like four weeks were so joyous. You know, we just got back from, got back from Christmas holidays, and everyone was just really wanting to, like, give it their all. And I think it was the scheduling, Claire Audrey did a really good job with the scheduling, because when we came back, everyone just had the energy to be like…

1:44Jawad MirYeah

1:44PC Williams... "Yeah, we've got this. We're making it happen. It's gonna be sick." And so yeah, that January filming for me was, like, my favorite part of filming on this project.

1:53Jawad MirThat was January '22, right? 2022.

1:55PC WilliamsYeah, January 2022.

1:58Jawad MirOkay. Okay.

1:59PC WilliamsA long time ago.

2:00Jawad MirSo before we get into Polite Society, tell me about your career, how you got into what you do, and what was your path and journey like.

2:09PC WilliamsYeah, I think so I'm, I'm Nigerian Guyanese, born and raised in the UK but definitely a Nigerian lady with Guyanese blood. And I think what's quite, telling about Nigerian people is that we are, we're, we're super theatrical and dramatic, even with, like, the most basic of things, like opening up a packet of bread. It's like, you know, there's, like, a story. So, like, I've always been a storyteller. I just kind of allowed the universe, for lack of a better word, to sort of, like, direct what it is that I'm doing, and so kind of I kept myself super open. I went to Saint Martins and did textile design. I came out of there and, like, worked for a couple of small brands and then decided I didn't wanna be a desi… a fashion designer, and then started teaching and started styling and working in music and just kind of flowed with what felt right at the time, and found myself where I am now, where it's kind of like an amalgamation of everything I've done over the last sort of 15 years from leaving s… university to now.

3:17PC WilliamsIt's kind of been about how is it that I best tell stories, and so it's, you know, my love of color and my love of textile and fabrication and how much story there is within that before you even make it into a garment. And then that garment, what that garment says by its shape or silhouette or size, and then how that enables someone to bring a character to life, and understanding when the time to be quiet is and when the time to, like, add to their character and add to that scene through costume is. And, you know, just being able... I've been really fortunate, and I've been able to, like, play, I've been afforded the opportunity to play with, like, a lot of the directors that I've worked with, whether it's Nida or MJ Delaney, who are two women who I've worked with for quite a long time, and being able to be given the space to just be like, "This is what we're thinking, but what do you feel like, and how do you see it?" And just being trusted to, like, experiment and make mistakes and know that eventually it'll come up with the right thing is, that's, I think that's the way in which my career has sort of got to where it is now.

4:26Jawad MirRight. It's funny you mention Nigerian being dramatic. I was in Abuja, Nigeria in 2010.

4:33PC Williamshuh.

4:35Jawad MirAnd I spent a week there, and here and there we would turn the TV on, and the way that the TV sitcoms or whatever, they were, they were so…

4:46PC WilliamsHollywood is drama

4:47Jawad Mir... Way over the top, like witchcraft and, you know, all that fun stuff.

4:53PC Williamshuh. It's like they're, it's like they're at a theater, but it's on your screen.

4:59Jawad MirYeah.

4:59PC WilliamsSo everything's big. And you know, you, that resonates outside of the screen into actual homes. You know, the way in which you communicate, the way in which we relay what happened at the market or relay what happened, like what my sister did yesterday, and I add a bit of spice. And then my other sister tells it to my mom, and it's added another bit of spice to it, and it's, it's just kind of we don't like to be bland people, and so it just means that we end up, dr… dramatizing everything.

5:30Jawad MirYeah. No doubt about that. And it, and it's good. I mean, for arts and crafts, it's, it's really good. I think I... One of my friend, he's a cinematographer, and he works with me a lot on my films as well, and my projects, and he worked on, a couple of, Nigerian films here in Toronto.

5:48Jawad MirAnd the guy who made it, the director, he was Nigerian, and then the production value was really high, so he took it back to Nigeria, and it just did a, you know, amazing... Because it catered to that market and then it started to…... Making more stuff here and taking it over there, and it wouldn't…

6:06Jawad Mir... Play anywhere else except Nigeria and it would…

6:10PC WilliamsBut the Nigerian film market is huge.

6:12Jawad MirIt is. It's almost…

6:13PC WilliamsIt's massive

6:14Jawad Mir... Bigger than Bollywood, actually. It's bigger than Bollywood.

6:16PC WilliamsYeah.

6:17Jawad MirYeah.

6:18PC WilliamsSo it's worth, it's like, you know, when you find, when you, when... I, you know, I've not been, I've been lucky enough to, like, make work out in Nigeria, but smaller works, like music videos or small…

6:30Jawad MirRight

6:30PC Williams... Like shorts and stuff, but I'd love, you know... I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm in talks with a writer out in LA who's got a film that is between America and Nigeria and designing that. It'd be amazing to spend, you know, six to eight weeks just with, like, the craftspeople, and really being able to, like, take what is traditional and authentic to our culture, but also approach it from through the lens of someone who wasn't raised in that, in that space. She never…

7:04Jawad MirYeah

7:04PC Williams... Was raised in a, in a Nigerian household, but in a…

7:06Jawad MirYeah

7:06PC Williams... In a Caucasian land, and how does that sort of like affect the way in which I see it and can bring it back to life? So I'm really excited about being able to go and work out there 'cause I think there's so much, there's so many incredibly talented people, and the market is so huge, and if you get the right story with the right actors, I feel like you can make something that's really special.

7:30Jawad MirYeah. It's interesting you mentioned that, you know, capturing your culture bec… but at the same time, because you've been raised in the West… ... It's a completely different thing, like, you know, like me going back to my home even though I, you know, I moved here a long time ago.

7:47Jawad MirIt's, it's, it's very difficult, but at the same time, it's very challenging… ... And fun at the same time to sort of create that because you're coming from two sides.

7:56PC WilliamsYeah.

7:56Jawad MirRight? And it's interesting.

7:57PC WilliamsYou can, you can bridge that middle ga… that middle gap, you know, where it's like…

8:00Jawad MirYeah

8:00PC Williams... I'm taking all the things. And also you get to sort of, in a way, you get to adapt the narrative, so it's, it's, it's, it has a very unique point of view, you know? There are, there's a friend of mine called Akinola Davies Jr., who's a director, and he does a lot of work out in Nigeria, but actually a lot of work in West Africa in general. But he's based here. And he, when he goes back to work, it's, he, the stories that we come back with is the teams, when he's explaining what it is that he wants to do, their responses to that, like, "Ah, okay." And it's like, but in our mind, we feel like, you know, we're doing something that feels like super authentic and real, but actually it's…

8:49Jawad MirYeah

8:49PC Williams... Because we straddle that middle space, you're kind of, you're taking the bits that you want to and making up what makes sense to you. I don't know.

8:59Jawad MirYeah. I mean, being, creating that bridge, I think, is also we like to figure out on our own because we're trying to s… struggle between two worlds… ... Like trying to find that balance. But at the same time, w… which I think was probably very helpful for you, and correct me if I'm wrong, on Polite Society, because it was about, you know, a South Asian world being in the UK and trying to sort of integ... Well, it wasn't ab… really about integration, but, you know, the cultures and all that stuff. So how did Nida discover you, or how did Nida approach you?

9:34PC WilliamsSo I, me and Nida worked together on Lady Parts.

9:38Jawad MirOkay, so you guys know. Okay.

9:39PC WilliamsSo we have, we have a, we have a, you know, a couple of years of working relationship, and we just, we... I was introduced to her through a production designer called Soraya Ghailani. This is before we did the bla… the pilot episode of Lady Parts. And we just, we're, we're, we're the, we're the same kinda weird in that we're both, you know, from ethnic minority backgrounds who work in the arts and have parents who kinda get it, and are like s… they're much more, they're mu… they're s… they've always been supportive, but obviously much more supportive now with the level of success that we're, we're, that we're beginning to…

10:19Jawad MirYeah

10:19PC Williams... To, accumulate for ourselves. But, you know, have, that's, that's a very rare thing because I have a lot of friends who wanted to do something creative whose parents are like, "No, you need to go be, do law or be a doctor or an accountant," or... So we come from s… similar spaces, where we're kind of going against the grain, but it's okay, and that's weird because it shouldn't be okay because we should all be doing what second-generation migrants who come to the UK are meant to be doing. And then aesthetically, we're very similar in that it's really raw the way in which she writes. It's also got a very youthful energy to it, and those are the sim… same things in the way in which I design. It's like, it's nothing's polished. There is a youthful energy to it. There is an understanding, of being a minority in a space. There is an understanding of trying to make sure that I keep hold of what my cultural identity is, but my cultural identity is a London identity, which is a mix of both Nigerian, British, and all the different multicultures around me…

11:27PC Williams... And how that makes me who I am and what that brings across on, in the way in which I design and what you see on screen. So we have lots of things that we kind of connect on, and so when she was telling, talking to me about this film, I was like, "Yeah, like, this is, this is for me." Like, I'm, like I was reading the script and laughing out loud, and I'm like I shouldn't be laughing this hard because I'm not a 16-year-old girl, but this shit's hilarious. You know? Like the fighting and the love between the siblings and the love between the other women in the film and how it's all about sisterhood. And you know, there was, there's so many things about this script that when I read it I was like, "Okay." And then having someone like Nida in my corner who's like… I trust you. Tell me what you wanna do. And you're like, "Ah, shit, I can do anything. Okay."

12:18Jawad MirYeah.

12:19PC WilliamsIt's kind of like a dream combo. So yeah, that's how we got together and it kind of... It's been working so far, so far so good, and I hope it continues to work as well as it has been.

12:32Jawad MirFor sure. I hope so too. You mentioned something interesting, about, and I would love to know your opinion on this… ... About how you mentioned that, you know, yourself and Nida, whose parents kind of got it, but at the same time…

12:47Jawad Mir... There are other people that you guys know that ended up being, you know, doctors. And this is a conversation I have with people here and there if it comes up. I always fi… I find, I think as I've, you know, evolved in terms of maturity and age and all that, I've come to realize, is it, could it all, could it be not that it's the parents who stop the kids, but it's also maybe if you don't have it in you that bad enough, you don't fight for it?

13:18PC WilliamsI think it's really hard to fight against something you don't know you truly want, right?

13:26Jawad MirThat's what I'm saying.

13:26PC WilliamsBecause I think when you're a teenager…

13:27Jawad MirThat's right

13:27PC Williams... You're kind of just exploring.

13:30Jawad MirBut if you really believe that you want it… ... Then you will go at whichever means to get it. What do you think?

13:37PC WilliamsYes. I hear that, but I also think that if you c… if... Something that's instilled into you as a child from any sort of, like, Nigerian back… Nigerian household is that you're meant to make your…

13:47Jawad MirYeah

13:47PC Williams... Parents proud. And so there is that sort of thing of like, as much as you might want it, you're also straddling, "But I do also wanna make them proud. I understand the sacrifice they've made to get me to where I am. And as much as this is what I think I could be good at, maybe they might know something, and so I'm gonna, like, lean into that." I think certain people, certain people find it easier to push against the grain than others, and that's not to say that they're more determined than others. It's that I probably had a more defined sense of self at 15 than someone else who has then decided to, you know, listen and do well and go and study sciences and... You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's,.. At 15, it's defiance. At 37, it's like, "Oh, you must have been so sure within yourself and really confident." And you know, like, as you get older, you can kind of flip it. But I don't, I don't think it's,..

14:49PC WilliamsI don't, I don't know how much it is the belief in the self, because I think you're so young. You are being guided, and you are listening to that guidance, and it takes you quite a while to actually listen to yourself. I think as a…

15:07Jawad MirYeah

15:07PC Williams... As the older I get, the more in tune with me I become. I was just lucky that I kind of knew from a very early age that, like, the route I was gonna take in life was never gonna be ordinary, and so was just believing in that. And, like, my, I, being the loud character as a child, you're kind of like, "We can tell her she shouldn't do this, but this kid's not gonna listen, so let's, like, get her into every drama class that she thinks she wants to go to and get her into, like, these drawing clubs over the school holidays and, you know, see where that goes and just have trust that what we've instilled in her is gonna come through, even in this industry, in this career, in this landscape that we don't necessarily understand."

15:58Jawad MirSure.

15:59PC WilliamsYeah.

15:59Jawad MirFair enough. Fair enough. And you know, going back to Polite Society… ... Working on this, I know you've worked with Nida before. You read the script. You loved it. Being on the set and, you know, what was probably one of the most toughest day or challenge where things were not... You know, in anything, any project, no matter how much you plan, things are gonna go, you know, sideways…

16:29PC WilliamsThat's life

16:29Jawad Mir... Up and then. That's life, right?

16:31PC WilliamsThat's life.

16:31Jawad MirAnd how, what was, what was something that occurred that kind of, you know, st… stands out in how you overcame it on the day of or on the week of or whatever that was?

16:44PC WilliamsSo, you know, for me, my, the most exciting part of filmmaking to me is the stuff that happens before it gets to camera, and it's the, it's the creating… ... Working alongside people to create. And actually, once it gets onto the floor, my job is done. It now is the actors and the director and it's, and the DP, and it's their space to bring everything, all the little pieces that we've all been working on…... To bring it all to life in this one space. I think when I took on the project, the biggest thing for me was making sure that it felt authentically correct.

17:21PC WilliamsAnd so as someone who isn't from the South Asian community, it was really important for me to get someone or get a few people on board who were, who could guide me in the do's and don'ts of Muslim weddings or engagements or soirees and to sort of show me the landscape where I can push and where if I push beyond that, it won't necessarily be true, and then that will be the effect that I don't wanna have on our film. So I think it was starting to work with the, starting to work on the Eid soiree, and I had this idea of, like, the color palette and the way in which I saw it. And I'd spoken with Simon, our production designer, and he told me about what he was planning to do with the space. And what we were doing worked really well. And some of the things that I was being drawn to, the girl who was working with me, Sabira, was like… PC, this isn't... That you wouldn't wear this to a Muslim function. And I was like, "But it looks really cool, and I feel like it gives…

18:24PC Williams... Me the South Asian vibe." She's like, "Yeah, it gives you, as a non-South Asian person, the South Asian vibe, but me, as a South Asian person, this isn't true." And ha… being able to, like, have that and take that on board without being sort of defeatist or being affect… or, like, ego being affected, and being able to work around that to make something that I still loved but was within the remit that made sense, those are the kinds of things on this project that I was really... Those are the problems that we were solving continually, was that ridge of what is true, the different, you know, the lehengas, the salwar kameezes, all of that sort of stuff, and where the spaces were where I could make it fanciful, you know? And with… without it singing out too much, so you're like, "Oh, no, that's not, that's not right." And so it was, it was kind of less on the day, "Ah, what's happening?"

19:28PC WilliamsBut it was more kind of in the, in the prep… ... Of trying to get that right. And then obviously there's always, whenever you're doing stunts, just hoping that…

19:35Jawad MirThat... Yeah

19:35PC Williams... That your stuff doesn't fall apart in the air…

19:37Jawad MirYeah

19:37PC Williams... And just being, like, praying. And, like, I wouldn't go to set on the days when they were doing big stunt days, 'cause I'd get so nervous that my stuff's gonna, like... Something's gonna... I can't control it, so therefore I'm, I'm like, "I just don't wanna be there. Just let me know how it went…... And I'll just watch the rushes tomorrow." And seeing, you know, the fight with Nimra and Priyanka, and that spin that she does, and remembering, like, when they were at the trailer and putting the holes in and not being able to, like, bond the edges of that fabric, so just praying that it's still in one piece when it comes back, and that sort of stuff. Those sorts of things I also think are like, "Ooh." But yeah.

20:25Jawad MirBut if something was to go wrong with the outfit…

20:28PC WilliamsYeah

20:28Jawad Mir... You know, especially in those stunts, I mean, if it was, like, a normal film where people are just interacting with each other, the chances of anything going wrong with the outfit is highly unlikely.

20:36Jawad MirBut, you know, with wires and all that stuff, was there, like... How would that... What was the sort of contingency plan for that? How would you deal with that?

20:46PC WilliamsWe had three of every item that was gonna be used in a fight. So if anything went wrong, there was another one there to replace it. And if anything went wrong with that one, then we went down to the last one, and then you're working frantically on the truck trying to mend the first two that have, like, whatever's happened to them.

21:05Jawad MirDid that happen on this set at any time?

21:07PC WilliamsDo you know what? We didn't, we didn't actually have that happen on this film, thank God.

21:11Jawad MirOkay

21:11PC Williams... We had... I did have to remake, the fight, Priyanka's fight outfit, when we were... One of the... One of... It wasn't, it wasn't the... It wasn't the fight between her and Pre… Pr… and Rahela, but it was a different fight. And she had... Stunt double had her own ones, and she had hers, but I think we'd, like... Something had happened where... I don't know what happened with one of them. It was just too badly damaged, and so... But luckily the makers were really close, so it was just easy to... The issue is when you kind of, like, you make everything from scratch, and then you can't get the fabrics anymore, and you're like... But luckily we were, we were blessed that it, that didn't, that didn't, you know, occur to us on this project. But I've heard horror stories…

22:01Jawad MirYeah

22:01PC Williams... From other people, and I'm like…

22:03Jawad MirYeah

22:03PC Williams... "Please let this not be my fate."

22:06Jawad MirYou mentioned, earlier about when, you know, the conversation that you had. I forget the girl's name. Was it Sabrina, the one that was working with you?

22:16PC WilliamsOh, Sabira.

22:17Jawad MirSabira.

22:18PC WilliamsYeah.

22:18Jawad MirThat this is not a Muslim outfit, or Muslim people don't, you know… ... They wouldn't wear something like this. What was the one that you were proposing?

22:28PC WilliamsI think I was proposing... So I was looking through lots of, like, I was looking through lots of, like, Asian bride, magazines and books, and I think I'd highlighted a few styles that I would like to sort of emulate and recreate in my own fabrics or, you know, my own versions of. And I think through some of those images she was like, "Oh, no, it's a Muslim wedding, and it's a very different thing…

22:52Jawad MirRight

22:53PC Williams... At a Muslim wedding to a Hindu wedding, and so this doesn't work in this space, or this..." You know what I mean? So it was kind of... I… it's not an... It wasn't, like, one specific thing, but it was just during that research process of the things that I was being drawn to and wanted to, and wanted to make to put on screen, those conversations happening at that point in time, you know? And w… in that research and the initial making, and then taking that on board before we start to sort of, like, you know, put the final outfits together.

23:24Jawad MirGotcha.

23:25PC WilliamsYeah.

23:25Jawad MirIn the prep work, in terms of inspiration… ... Research, did you, go through any, books, any films?

23:37PC WilliamsOh my God.

23:38Jawad MirWhat…

23:38PC WilliamsSo many. So many.

23:39Jawad MirWhich ones?

23:40PC WilliamsSo obviously, so obviously Devdas, because that was where the…

23:44Jawad MirYeah

23:44PC Williams... The dance comes from.

23:46Jawad MirYeah

23:46PC Williams... For the school uniforms, I'm trying to find it now. From the school uniforms, there was a lady called Juliet. I was talking about her name the other day. Oh, there it is, Julia Fullerton-Batten, and she does these, like, repetitive photographs. And when I was designing the school uniforms, I kept coming back to this phrase of disorder within the order, and this idea of, like, how, as someone who's never had a school uniform, thank God, how do you retain your individuality within this homogenous setting, right? How do I still be PC? How does Priya still be Priya? How does... And so I kept coming back to her images, which were just like... I've got her book here, actually. I'll show you.

24:32Jawad MirSure.

24:36PC WilliamsSo it's kind of just like imagery, and I mean, you know, sometimes when I'm, when I'm creating stuff, I start in a place that no one really gets except for me, and then when it comes back to it, they're like, "Oh, okay, I see it now." but just this like, there's this one of these schoolgirls, so I don't know if you can see that.

24:55Jawad MirYeah.

24:56PC WilliamsBut it's just like images of that, of like this order within the order. Everything is very sort of ordered and like repetitive, but…

25:07Jawad MirRight

25:08PC Williams... It's also like messed up, you know? And I was... That's... So I was looking at stuff like that. Had a lot of research around like the different patterns and the meanings of those patterns in like print design for what we were doing. And then, you know, like I kind of really liked stuff like,.. Oh, what's that TV show called? We Are Who We Are?

25:35Jawad MirI'm not familiar with that.

25:36PC WilliamsIt's that young one, right? Is it We Are Who We Are? It's…

25:39Jawad MirSounds familiar, but I haven't seen it.

25:41PC WilliamsYeah. But it's like a, it's like a sort of like Gen Z… ... Gen Z sort of,.. Let me just, I'm just gonna Google to make sure of, 'cause I think it is We Are Who We Are.

25:49Jawad MirYeah.

25:49PC WilliamsWe Are Who We Are. Yeah, We Are Who We Are. But you know that sort of, this idea of like these young, these teens having their own unique identity and developing a visual language that they're not even necessarily completely sure of just yet, and being able to heighten that. I like... I've got a, I've got young nieces, and to me, I think a lot of the imagery that we see put out of like teenage girls are su… like hypersexualized, and I just wanted to make girls who were cool and young and fun…

26:27Jawad MirYeah

26:27PC Williams... But without any of the sexiness, you know? Like, not one of them is in that space, and actually, that's to me, of all the f… what we've done with this movie, to s… to know that you're gonna have like 15, 16, 17, 18-year-old girls going to see this, and it's gonna be an alternative version of like the stuff that they're fed on Instagram every day is what makes me the most proud.

26:55Jawad MirYeah, no, that was done very, well and aesthetically. And you mentioned about the keeping the characters' individuality while… ... They were in that outfit. And you know, it's, it's funny you mention that because normally... Have you ever seen Dead Poets Society?

27:12PC WilliamsYes.

27:13Jawad MirOkay. So you know how that, the whole film… ... You actually f… you actually feel these characters kind of in this, or, you know, like a dictatorship world. Like they're being to… You feel it. But in this one, excuse my voice, in Polite Society, you don't. I never felt that because I think it, along with the outfit, which was they were not very much in the face. They had that color and everything.

27:40Jawad MirIt was also the characters, but also at the same time the performance.

27:44PC WilliamsYeah.

27:44Jawad MirYou know? That really brought out the indivi… You never felt that these three character, like, you know, Priya and her two friends…

27:51PC WilliamsYeah

27:51Jawad Mir... They were kind of imprisoned in this school, in this environment.

27:55PC WilliamsNo. Also, that red is such a, it's such a, like a pungent red.

27:59Jawad MirYeah.

27:59PC WilliamsAnd then you put it against like the most drab gray you can find, and it kind of takes the sting out the red so it doesn't look so sort of like, ah. And then you've got like, you know, then you've got these really thick heavy-soled shoes, so... And they're in this old building, but they're kind of like clunking away, like we own this space. This space doesn't own us.

28:22Jawad MirYeah.

28:22PC WilliamsIt's kind of that's... I feel like that was a success between all departments to make that space get the audience feeling that way. You know, whether it's Priya… ... Or Seraphina or Ella, and their acting chops, or Ash and the way that she like, you know, recorded that, or the direction that Nida was given, and just the way in which Sai had made the space. I think we all came together in that moment, and Claire with the little, you know, the little things, the bows here on Seraphina and the ones here for Alba. And you know, I think we really sort of, we gave the girls an individual... The girls were individuals, but actually…

29:07Jawad MirYeah

29:07PC Williams... The school, the school was the school, and no one got lost within that school, you know?

29:17Jawad MirYeah.

29:17PC WilliamsYeah.

29:17Jawad MirIt's, it's so true. I mean, and the one thing that I love about this film that, again, is kind of missing from the cinema today, it was very focused, right? Like you have the protagonist. She has two friends. She has parents. She has a sister.

29:32Jawad MirThere's a nemesis. The, you know… ... There's like seven, eight characters, and I... And again, everything begins with the script. If the script is great…

29:40PC WilliamsYeah

29:40Jawad Mir... Almost close to 95% of the time, everything else starts falling in place, right?

29:45PC WilliamsI have a question for you, actually.

29:47Jawad MirSure.

29:48PC WilliamsWho was your favorite character?

29:50Jawad MirMy favorite character was, Priya.

29:53PC WilliamsOh, really? Interesting.

29:55Jawad MirYeah.

29:55PC WilliamsOkay.

29:56Jawad MirYeah.

29:56PC WilliamsYeah.

29:57Jawad MirI, and I'll, I'll... Because I think it's probably because, you know, we were talking about this whole thing earlier that trying to figure out your own… ... I… identity, and you know, like she was so focused in what she wanted.

30:18Jawad MirRight? As, you know, that stark in contrast in the beginning…

30:23PC WilliamsYeah

30:23Jawad Mir... Her sister, you know, confused, chaos, and she's… ... Just so focused with her martial arts.

30:29PC WilliamsYeah.

30:29Jawad MirAnd I think as creative people, if you know where you're headed and what your goals are, you know, more so that's, that's how you are, and then you're always questioning stuff. That's how, that's how I am.

30:41PC WilliamsYeah.

30:41Jawad MirI always question everything.

30:43PC WilliamsYeah.

30:43Jawad MirAnd, sometimes that's a little too much, but that's just how my personality is.

30:47PC WilliamsI think it's needed. I think we need to…

30:49Jawad MirYeah

30:49PC Williams... I think we've, we've been given a voice, right?

30:52Jawad MirYeah.

30:52PC WilliamsWe've been given a voice that's unique and individual, and we understand... Not everyone understands…

30:59Jawad MirYeah

30:59PC Williams... They have a voice. So many people…

31:01Jawad MirYeah

31:01PC Williams... Sit silent. I think when you work in the creative industries, when you work in filmmaking, when you work in storytelling, you understand that your voice has power. And so when things happen around you put power to that. Why is this happening? How is this happening? When…

31:16Jawad MirYeah

31:16PC Williams... Is this happening? Who is this happening to? Why? You know, and you kind of, the more you question, for me anyway, the more I question, the more curious I become with what's around me…

31:28Jawad MirOh, yeah. 100%

31:29PC Williams... The better the world. Like, I'm just like, I have my passion for life is fueled by my curiosity for life, you know? And I think…

31:40Jawad MirYeah

31:41PC Williams... I get that about Ria. I think Ria as a character is... Well, look, Ria as a character was written phenomenally well in the first place.

31:48Jawad MirYeah.

31:48PC WilliamsBut Ria was brought to life by Priya in such a…

31:54Jawad MirShe was amazing

31:54PC Williams... In such a magnificent way.

31:56Jawad MirShe was amazing.

31:57PC WilliamsYou know?

31:57Jawad MirShe was the best performance in the entire film. I mean, I'm not trying to take that away from anybody else. They did a great job too, but she, because the protagonist, she really drew... Everybody sort of got the energy off her.

32:10Jawad MirThat's what I thought.

32:11PC WilliamsShe drew you in. From the moment…

32:13Jawad MirYeah

32:13PC Williams... You saw her on screen…

32:15Jawad MirYeah

32:15PC Williams... She drew you in her gold helmet on her little bike. She was focused, and we were focused with her, and it was, it was... She was brilliant. For me…

32:29Jawad MirI th…

32:30PC WilliamsI loved…

32:31Jawad MirYes

32:31PC Williams... Raheela.

32:34Jawad MirYeah. She re… she reminded me of Cruella de Vil.

32:39PC WilliamsYeah. Costume wise, Raheela's character, Raheela was the most fun to costume of everyone.

32:48Jawad MirYeah.

32:48PC WilliamsFor me, that was my costume design dream, to make…

32:53Jawad MirOh, was it?

32:54PC Williams... This expensive, dramatic villain who is an older lady that is chic as hell and that, like, just looks like she's dripping in money and gold and riches and in, like... And also straddling that, straddling, for her…

33:15Jawad MirYeah

33:15PC Williams... It was like, how do I make it that we can see that she's, she knows who she is, she's proud of where she's from, but she's also got this Western aesthetic that leans back into South Asian aesthetic? How do I do that? That was... Yeah, I loved, I loved desi… I loved, I loved everything. And Raheela's wardrobe for me was, like, my, yeah, dream. And to do that cape and to do the, to make... You know, putting Ria in a, an anarkali for the dance…

33:46PC Williams... Which is, like, such an old style of…

33:50Jawad MirYeah

33:50PC Williams... You know, Asian dress, to be able to flip it on the older Raheela and make her something that's actually quite Western in its, in aesthetic in that it's this, like, pants, like, double-breasted pantsuit, but make it, give it the drama of what we get from minority dressing, whether it's the embellishments and the embroidery and the... Yeah, I just, I loved, I loved designing Rahe… I mean, I loved, I loved designing it all, don't get me wrong, but…

34:20Jawad MirNo, I get it. I get it

34:22PC Williams... Her costumes were…

34:23Jawad MirIt's, it... And I, and I think the first time you see her in that, the couch sitting when they're, you know, the women are having a conversation…

34:33PC WilliamsYeah

34:33Jawad Mir... The conversation they were having, like, showed her attitude, but I th… at the same time, I genuinely believe... I mean, we, people don't see it because everything is as a, presented as a package.

34:44PC WilliamsYeah.

34:44Jawad MirIf her outfit was different… ... It probably wouldn't have sent that same vibe. E… everything adds up. And you know, it's her, it's her wardrobe…

34:53PC WilliamsYeah

34:53Jawad Mir... And it's, it's her s… what she's wearing i… is basically who she is, and she's…

34:58PC WilliamsYeah

34:58Jawad Mir... Trying to throw that at the, you know, at the protagonist, at the audience.

35:03PC WilliamsYeah.

35:03Jawad MirAnd it was done really well. I loved her outfit too…

35:07PC WilliamsYeah

35:07Jawad Mir... And her character. I mean, it, antagonist is necessary, right? And she was a perfect…

35:12PC WilliamsYeah.

35:13Jawad MirShe was a perfect antagonist.

35:15PC WilliamsShe really was. She really was. It was fun. It was fun. And I think, you know, I'm not sure if you've spoken to Ash yet or if you're gonna, you're about to…

35:23Jawad MirI did. I did.

35:25PC WilliamsYou did?

35:25Jawad MirBut I spoke to Ashley before I saw the film.

35:29PC WilliamsOh.

35:30Jawad MirSo I didn't get a chance to see it, until yesterday. I spoke to her on Tuesday or Monday, I think.

35:36PC WilliamsOkay. Okay.

35:38Jawad MirYeah.

35:38PC WilliamsAll right. No, 'cause I think…

35:39Jawad MirYeah

35:39PC Williams... Ash did an amazing job.

35:41Jawad MirShe did.

35:42PC WilliamsYou know, we don't have that many female DPs shooting action. And so to sh… for the way that she shot it I thought was so engaging. And it made my work... She made my work sing, and that's always, you know... I'm always grateful for that, for a DP that understands that, like, you know, you're not just lighting these faces, you're lighting these costumes.

36:11Jawad MirRight.

36:12PC WilliamsAnd how do I make it sing? And she did that. So I was really... I, the... It was a real l… it was a real labor of love, and you know, what we've come out of it with I couldn't be more proud of, really.

36:27Jawad MirNo, it's, it's a, it's a great film, and it's been a while. And I was talk… when I was talking to Ashley, I was... The last film, and I'm sure there were many in between…... That I felt You know, where… where it's like a cross-cultural thing.

36:44Jawad MirI mean, this wasn't really about cross-culture, but it was more so being in that Western culture… ... And living in that. But it was more, it was more just dealing with the internal issues. That I… Bend It Like Beckham was something that…

36:57Jawad Mir... I felt really great about when it came out. I think it was… ... What, 20 years ago now?

37:02PC WilliamsYeah.

37:02Jawad MirAnd before that it was Monsoon Wedding, which was directed by Mira Nair. And since then, since, Bend It Like Beckham, I haven't seen a South Asian film... Oh, sorry about that. South Asian story-based film in the West done well.

37:22PC WilliamsYeah. There's one film that you're missing out, though.

37:25Jawad MirWhich one?

37:26PC WilliamsEast is East.

37:27Jawad MirYes. That... Wasn't that before Bend It Like Beckham?

37:30PC WilliamsI think that was before Bend It Like Beckham.

37:31Jawad MirYeah. East is East…

37:32PC WilliamsBut after Monsoon Wedding

37:33Jawad Mir... Is absolutely hilarious.

37:34PC WilliamsYeah. Yeah.

37:35Jawad MirEast is Abs… That was a hardcore depiction of… I don't even know how to say it. But it was an amazing film.

37:45PC WilliamsI think that we've, in the, you know…

37:46Jawad MirYeah

37:46PC Williams... In the wake of sort of like George Floyd and Black Lives Matter, and like Donald Trump, I think there's been so much focus on the Black experience, and bringing that to the forefront, whether it's on the big screen or the small screen. I think what's been really interesting in the last year and a half is that the South Asian experience and the Far East Asian experience has begun to be put onto the big screen and the small screen. Whether it's stuff like what we've just done now with Polite Society, or things like Beef.

38:18PC WilliamsI think people are beginning to realize that minorities, it's a plurality. It's not a singular thing. And actually, there are many minority groups that, who have stories to tell that aren't being told. And so it was, it's a, it's a real this, and then with Lady Parts, being able to get those sorts of stories out on screen, and for people to start to see them, and start to, you know, begin to reminisce about things like East is East and Bend It Like Beckham, and understand that this isn't something new. It's just been a long time since we've been doing it. I'm hoping that it's, it's like, it's, an, a sort of like, an insight in what's to come, you know?

39:09Jawad MirRight. I think in UK, because a lot of, people moved to UK in the '60s… ... You know? So like shows like Mind Your Language, I don't know if you've seen that… ... Where there is, you know, people from diff… students from different cultures, and they're trying to learn English. That was a very common thing in UK, but I think in Canada and US…

39:31Jawad Mir... The majority of the migration started in the, in the '90s.

39:35PC WilliamsOkay.

39:35Jawad MirAnd a lot of people that... I, in terms of like population, like, you know… ... When you're trying to cater to a demographic as a film, as a business… ... I think that started to emerge maybe in the last 10 to 12 years.

39:48Jawad MirAnd so th… those things take time. And I feel that… ... You know, before there wasn't a market, because there were not that many people… ... To see it. That's how, what I feel. In the UK, there always has been for a long time, because a lot of people did move to UK in the '60s…

40:02PC WilliamsYeah

40:02Jawad Mir... And the '50s and '70s.

40:04PC WilliamsWe have a massive South East Asian community in the UK.

40:06Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, I've, I've, I've been to London so many times, all I see is, you know, diversity everywhere…... And a lot of very, it's very multicultural. But I think things take time in their own pace, in their own speed…

40:17Jawad Mir... And they will. And, we should just be a little patient and move on with it.

40:22PC WilliamsNo, I think we should be patient. I'm not, I don't disagree with that, but I think it's just…

40:25Jawad MirYeah

40:25PC Williams... Nice that like it's, it appears that the tides are turning, and that we're getting just much more sort of diverse stories in filmmaking, you know? Or in image making. And this is, this is, you know, I'm saying this as a Black woman. I'm... The stories that we see of minorities often revolve around one group, or stuff that's been happening in the last five to 10 years anyway. So it's nice to see that actually people who are commissioning stuff are realizing that there's so much more diversity, even on this small little island, that we can be tapping into to tell these sorts of stories. And by doing that, we're getting things like Polite Society, we're getting things like Lady Parts, we're getting things like, you know, the plethora of product that are co… that's coming out that is a reflection…

41:23Jawad MirYeah

41:23PC Williams... On the c… on our, on our communities, you know?

41:28Jawad MirYeah. It's also... Have you seen that movie, what is it? Like what is it called? Rich Asians or something? What was it called?

41:35PC WilliamsOh yeah, Crazy Rich Asians.

41:37Jawad MirCrazy Rich Asians. Yeah. So I mean, there's a huge market…

41:40PC WilliamsThat was two years ago now.

41:42Jawad MirYeah, about four or five years ago.

41:43PC WilliamsYeah.

41:43Jawad MirI think it was before. It was a great film. But incidentally, it didn't do well in China.

41:50PC WilliamsOh.

41:50Jawad MirBecause it, they actually felt that it was way too, it made the Chinese people look really Westernized…

41:59PC WilliamsRight

41:59Jawad Mir... And that. So, you know, you... At, my point is at the end of the day, there's, there's so many cult… you know, cultural barriers… ... And so many different things. At, and I think studios at the end of the day are running businesses.

42:14Jawad MirAnd if they see, which they have now, if they see there's market for it… ... And if the story is good, regardless… ... Of where it's coming from… ... They will do it. But it has to be a good story, right?

42:25PC WilliamsYeah.

42:25Jawad MirIt just, we can't just make films for the sake of…

42:27PC WilliamsI mean, you say that. There's, there's a lot of terrible stuff out there.

42:30Jawad MirNo, I know. 95% of the stuff is garbage. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

42:35PC WilliamsYeah.

42:35Jawad MirThere's a lot of garbage out there. You know, mainstream…

42:38PC WilliamsYeah

42:38Jawad Mir... Independent. And I think that's a good thing, because now we're, I feel the tide is turning… In terms of good filmmaking because…

42:47PC WilliamsYeah

42:47Jawad Mir... Superhero films have completely ruined independent cinema. Completely ruined. I mean, I... Kudos to all those people who watch it. I have nothing against it. I think they've, it… it, now, but I think the people are getting tired of it, and they want story-driven films period.

43:04PC WilliamsBut do you not think that there could be a cool superhero film if it wasn't from a Marvel or a DC?

43:09Jawad MirI loved Joker. I loved Joker. I loved Batman Begins, Dark Knight, Dark, because they were not, in my view, those were more focused on stories and character. When you start putting too much action and visual effects…

43:24Jawad Mir... And it overtakes the story… ... You've lost the audience. That's, that's just how I feel.

43:29PC WilliamsYeah.

43:30Jawad MirI mean, I've interviewed people who have done superhero movies, and I will talk to them no problem, I mean, I, because they're, they ma… they worked hard of course.

43:39PC WilliamsYeah.

43:39Jawad MirIt's not an easy thing to do, but I haven't been able to connect to them yet.

43:44PC WilliamsIn the same way, yeah.

43:45Jawad MirMaybe that, maybe that will change down the road.

43:48PC WilliamsI think that, I think, so I've, I think that there can be some really good superhero films. But I think that we're just oversaturated with superhero films, and that story is…

43:57Jawad MirYeah

43:57PC Williams... No longer important in superhero films. But I'm really…

44:00Jawad MirThat's, that's what I'm saying, yeah

44:01PC Williams... Excited by the prospect of original superhero movies, so superhero movies that don't come from the DC family or the Marvel family…

44:11Jawad MirYeah

44:11PC Williams... That are independent, new stories and new superheroes. And, like, if I was creating a superhero today, what would my superhero be fighting for? And who would they come into contact with? What would they... Do you know what I mean? Like, those sorts of things I think I'm really interested because I think there's so much happening in our social awareness that this is kind of the perfect time to make a new superhero and to make something…

44:39Jawad MirWell, Polite Society in my view is a superhero movie if you wanna call it.

44:43PC WilliamsYeah.

44:43Jawad MirRight? But it wasn't more so focused, like you said, about, you know, superpowers and all that stuff. And even films, like, you know, even f… people who do humanitarian work… ... And document, like, you know, I make narrative documentaries, and, my prot… I have, like, a basically protagonist, antagonist, and everything.

45:06Jawad MirAnd they're the real superheroes who are doing so much work. That's just again, you know…

45:11PC WilliamsYeah. I agree

45:11Jawad Mir... You're, you're right, and I think that's a great thing that you said. Outside of, because Marvel and DC as is, it's a business, right? And I feel that if you, if you make a small film about, you know, just an ordinary person, because people relate to ordinary.

45:29PC WilliamsYeah.

45:29Jawad MirYou know, that's how we all are.

45:30PC WilliamsYeah.

45:30Jawad MirIt doesn't matter how much money you have or how much, you know, mansions you have.

45:35PC WilliamsYeah.

45:35Jawad MirWe've connected those, and I hope what you just said, maybe people will take a word for that and…

45:42PC WilliamsYeah

45:42Jawad Mir... You know, do something about it because we need those kind of stories…

45:45PC WilliamsYeah

45:45Jawad Mir... For sure.

45:45PC WilliamsWe do. I feel they're coming. I feel they're coming.

45:48Jawad MirI think so too.

45:49PC Williamshuh.

45:50Jawad MirI think so too.

45:51PC WilliamsYeah.

45:51Jawad MirGreat. I know you have a meeting, coming up.

45:53PC WilliamsYes.

45:54Jawad MirSo I…

45:54PC WilliamsGotta get back into a fitting

45:55Jawad Mir... So I probably wanna give you some time to…

45:59PC WilliamsYeah.

45:59Jawad Mir... Get ready for it. This has been a pleasure. It was so pleasure.

46:01PC WilliamsOh, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. I chat a lot, so sorry if you've gotta leave in a hurry.

46:05Jawad MirNo, so do I, so it worked out. I would love to talk to you, about some of your past work down the road if you're up for it. And, what's in the future for you, just last question? What are you working on that you're able to talk about?

46:20PC WilliamsSo, I have a film, due out which was written by Daniel Kaluuya, directed by Bagwo Kwete-Tebrez, which is set in a sort of dystopian, semi-dystopian future of London in 20, 21 years' time from now. And that's with Netflix, so that's, that's due out towards the end of the year. I have another film out with Jodie Comer and Benedict Cumberbatch, which is, based on the book called The End We Start From, and so it's a story about the climate crisis.

46:51PC WilliamsAnd it follows this lady who has just given birth to her child, as they try to stay safe as the UK is affected by really severe, weather issues. And I just finished the Amy Winehouse, biopic with StudioCanal. So I'm, I'm on a sort of, semi-haze. I'm actually going in a coup… in two weeks we're doing some reshoots on the Daniel Kaluuya thing, some pickup shots for that, and then, and then that will be fully in the edit ready to be, you know, finished and graded…

47:28Jawad MirSure

47:28PC Williams... And then be out there. But yeah, for now I'm kind of, I'm taking a little bit of time whilst I've been on the three years of not stopping. And then I'll start, Lady Parts season two. So we'll get back together with Nida and see what else we can do with our Muslim punk band, see how…

47:49Jawad MirThat's great

47:50PC Williams... See how the three years in between or the four years in between filming it has changed the way in which we approach it. So yeah, it's quite busy, but also, like, nice. I think the end of the year is really exciting because that's when all three of those films are out towards the end of the year. So it's kind of like a…

48:05Jawad MirRight

48:05PC Williams... Just sort of sitting in, a sitting duck waiting to see how they do. But, you know, when you make stuff, you never know if it's gonna be successful or not. You can only make things that you believe in the stories of, and…

48:15Jawad MirThat's it

48:16PC Williams... I think all three of them I believe in the stories that we've told. So I just hope that they come together in the edit.

48:23Jawad MirAbsolutely, and let's, let's chat then when all these films are about to come out, and we can have…

48:27PC WilliamsAmazing

48:28Jawad Mir... Further conversation about it.

48:29PC WilliamsPerfect. All right.

48:30Jawad MirAll right. Thank you so much, Peasy.

48:31PC WilliamsSee you later. Have a great day.

48:33Jawad MirOkay. Bye-bye. You too. Bye-bye.

48:42PC WilliamsSee you.