'Messi's World Cup', Editors, Carlos David Rivera & Curtis McConnell

0:06Jawad MirHow is the weather in, Burbank? Probably really nice and warm.

0:10Guest 2It's…

0:11Guest 1Yeah

0:11Guest 2... It's been mostly rainy here the last few weeks, which is good. We always need it. That's the joke that they make out here. We needed this.

0:19Jawad MirOh, yep.

0:21Guest 2But we do.

0:22Jawad MirYeah, you guys are missing out on that big storm. That rain, that's more in the northeast part of the California.

0:28Guest 2It is. We get the residual rainfall that comes in as it works its way south. But it's good, 'cause I remember there was, like, five or six years here where it rained for maybe half an hour for the entire year, and that was it. And you would drive out into the wilderness and see all our reservoirs, and they would be... Like, you can see where the water levels dip and how much it's drained, and it'd be like, "Oh, we're in trouble."

0:54Jawad MirYeah.

0:54Guest 2But…

0:55Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, it's good. It's good. I'm traveling quite a bit to California, and I was in LA, like, five, six times in the last five, six months, and the weather has been great over there…

1:07Guest 2Yeah

1:07Jawad Mir... All the time, so it's, it's good. I think Curtis is still having some problems. Curtis?

1:13Guest 1Yeah. One more time, gonna quit and rejoin.

1:17Jawad MirOkay.

1:17Guest 1I just changed out the cable. Hopefully this will fix it.

1:21Jawad MirSure. What are you working on now?

1:27Guest 2I'm working for the company, I don't know if you're familiar with the shows Cheer or Last Chance U on ... Netflix. I'm doing a pilot, for them at the moment that, has NDAs but exists in the same, you know, the same central concept of those shows where teams that we're following,.. A lot of heart. Think it'll probably…

1:54Jawad MirOkay

1:54Guest 2... Yeah. Good.

1:55Jawad MirGood. Let's see. Okay.

1:57Guest 2There you are.

1:58Jawad MirThere we go. Curtis, what are you working on nowadays?

2:01Guest 1I'm actually working on... It's a bit of a passion project.

2:06Jawad MirOkay

2:06Guest 1... It's about... It's a… another, soccer documentary. Are we saying soccer…

2:12Jawad MirYeah

2:12Guest 1... Or football? I naturally say football…

2:14Jawad MirI…

2:14Guest 1... But I'm trying to…

2:15Jawad MirI'm okay with football.

2:17Guest 1Okay.

2:17Jawad MirOkay. Yeah.

2:18Guest 1Yeah. So it's a, it's a football documentary. So I'm editing and producing it, but it's about this club in Kansas City, that it's a youth football club. Northeast Kansas City, which is kind of like the underserved area. And the club is made up entirely of refugees.

2:43Jawad MirOh.

2:43Guest 1So there's, like, 27 countries represented in this club. Anyway, so long story short, basically this team, they go to the USA Cup, which is the largest youth soccer tournament in the country.

2:59Jawad MirYeah.

3:00Guest 1And it's, it's kind of a, like a, you know, '90s-style sports feel-good type of thing or whatever. But it's, it's really cool. Like, the kids and everything that have... They just have, like, the most amazing stories and that. So we are currently all self-producing this thing right now, and we will see what happens. And my camera went... God, it went out again.

3:24Jawad MirThat's okay. That's okay. Just leave it at that.

3:26Guest 1Okay.

3:26Jawad MirWe'll just replace it with your picture. Just…

3:27Guest 1All right

3:27Jawad Mir... You're gonna have to send me a picture of yours. Yeah, no, that sounds great. I know somebody who worked on this documentary. It's called... I think it comes out... It already came out, or it's supposed to come. It's called Where Da… We Dare to Dream. It's about the, Olympic, refugee Olympic team that took place in 2020, whenever the Olympics was in Japan. Was it 2020, I think? Yeah. So yeah, no, that's cool, man. That's really awesome. Looking forward to that. Refugees is something that I've kind of dealt with, too, with one of the films that, The Citizen Morio, was about a refugee filmmaker. So I completely appreciate what you're doing. It's awesome.

4:09Guest 1Yeah.

4:11Jawad MirLet's talk about, the documentary that you guys worked on, Apple TV Plus' Messi, the World Cup, series. How did you guys get on board? Whoever can start first would be, would be great.

4:29Guest 1I'll go ahead, 'cause I believe I came on before Carlos. I, had worked previously with, the showrunner, John Henyon. He was the showrunner on, the FX show Welcome to Wrexham. And so he and I worked together on that for a while. Love the guy. And, yeah, he was approached with the project and hit me up and asked if I wanted to join. And so I was like, "Absolutely." I've been a football fan for my whole life. I mean, Messi is obviously the GOAT in my world, and so I was like, any opportunity, if I get to edit Messi's football skills, I'm like, absolutely, I will do whatever it takes to get on that project. So...

5:18Jawad MirThat's great. How about you, Carlos?

5:21Guest 2I got on, because, Matt Renner, the executive producer, one of our executive producers on the show, years ago he and I had worked together on a show called, Game of Arms, that followed different arm wrestling teams from around the country.

5:36Guest 2... And it had been a while. He had gone on to amazing new heights since then, you know, producing, like, Free Solo and, other big movies for, I believe, Nat Geo. And, he texted me out of the blue, in the fall of 2022, like, "Hey, I'm in Qatar. I'm doing this new show." I'm like, "It's about the World Cup." And he's sending me videos from, like, the stadium while they're playing the matches, and he's like, "Yeah, we're gonna make a..."... Documentary series about Messi and Team Argentina. Are you interested? I was like, "Yeah, of course, I'm interested." So, that…

6:11Jawad MirThat's awesome

6:12Guest 2... A few months later became, us working on the show for the first time together in over a decade.

6:19Jawad MirExcuse me. That's great. That's good to know. Yeah, I was speaking to, what's their name? C… was it Juan? Yeah, Juan and, Jenna, who are the executive producers. I spoke to them, I think, last week or so, about the series, and just kind of had a good conversation about, you know, certain aspects a… and everything, and it was, it was really cool to kinda get an understanding of, you know, the behind the scene and h… my main question to them was like, you know, sometimes you start off on a project, gambling on the fact that this team will have a great story whether or not they will win or not, but they will just have a great story. But it just turned out not only they had a great story, but they won the World Cup, right? Right. Especially after the defeat against Saudi Arabia. I'm not a soccer fan in any means. Like, I'll just watch whenever the World Cup comes and maybe watch a game here and there, maybe the final bits and pieces. But I saw David Beckham's Netflix series, I don't know if you have seen that, which is a great four-part series or five-part series.

7:23Guest 1Yeah, it's fantastic.

7:24Jawad MirAnd, yeah, and I saw this and, totally loved it. And, you know, just the arc in that entire element that how they lost to Saudi Arabia in that first, in that second half, and that completely defined their journey to the, to winning the World Cup, and how they just kind of struggled every single game to barely get there, including the final. It was just a great story and a great w… way that you guys were able to, you know, tell that story a… at least for you guys in post-production realm of things.

7:59Guest 1I think we were very fortunate with just how dramatic that whole World Cup was.

8:04Jawad MirYeah.

8:05Guest 1You know, from... I mean, even, like, w… getting into, like, the quarterfinals and the, you know, the finals and everything, it ju… it felt like everything was just... It almost, like, almost felt scripted, you know? And

8:15Jawad MirYeah, that, exactly

8:17Guest 1... Yeah. And I know that there are also people out there who are like, "Oh no, it was all rigged," or whatever. But no, we c… I... It definitely wasn't, but it definitely played out like, yeah, like it was, it was meant to be, like the show was meant to exist it felt like.

8:34Jawad MirYeah. Carlos, do you have anything to add?

8:37Guest 2Yeah. No, I mean, same as what Curtis was saying, and, to sort of relive it immersed in the footage and the material that we were able to get to that, you know, eventually comprised the series, you know. You see all these people who are fanatics for the team, and the sport, and Messi. And after working on it, I was starting to believe a little myself and was like, "Maybe I should light some candles," you know? Get involved in all this.

9:04Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. And there's something that you guys said you guys kinda came on board as the World Cup was taking place, right? So do you remember which game w… it was? Was it literally right at the opening, second round, first round?

9:22Guest 2Well, we didn't…

9:23Jawad MirHow…

9:23Guest 2... Start working on the show during it, but we started, talks while it was going.

9:29Jawad MirYeah.

9:29Guest 2Yeah. I mean…

9:30Jawad MirMy, the reason I'm asking you, the g… sorry about that. The reason I'm asking is, like, if you guys have been green-lighted to work on the project, then you're naturally following the World Cup just to, not just from the standpoint of watching it as a fan or, but because…

9:44Guest 2Right

9:44Jawad Mir... You wanna know what's going on, and then rooting for the team that you're actually gonna be following. Like, I just wanna know where you guys were when everything was sort of green-lighted on your both ends, like which games were taking place that you started following them?

9:58Guest 2I was there, talking with, Matt Renner pretty early on, so that by the time the final match happened I was watching it, going, "Wow, this is you know?" I don't know enough about football to know, like, what the greatest matches of all time were, but I was watching, I'm like, "I'm pretty sure this is, I can't…"

10:18Jawad MirYeah

10:18Guest 2... "imagine a greater match, than the one I'm watching right now." And I was texting with him, while the match was going on, and he's sending me, like, iPhone videos there from the stands as it's all going down. So, you know, I didn't know then that I would be working on the finale episode and getting to, cut a lot of that. But was extremely excited, when... Showed up for my first day of work and they're like, "You're on the last episode." Great.

10:49Jawad MirThat's awesome.

10:49Guest 2But also, but also no pressure, you know?

10:52Jawad MirYeah.

10:53Guest 1Yeah.

10:53Jawad MirCurtis, what about you?

10:54Guest 1I came, I came on, or at least was reached out, it would've been January, so it was actually right after the World Cup had taken place. So I think that at that time, I'm sure that, like, Matt and those guys were already had it in their minds, but then once the World Cup sort of wrapped up, then they were like, "All right, let's make a show here." And so yeah. So I mean, I, you know, I sat with my son in our Argentina jerseys and everything already, and so we were, like, 100% on board, watched every game of theirs. And, but yeah, so it was, it was only, it was only after the World Cup that I came on.

11:33Jawad MirAll right. Okay. That's pretty cool. And which episodes did you guys edit, or together or separately?

11:40Guest 1I did episode three.

11:42Jawad MirOkay.

11:42Guest 1So I did the Netherlands match, which I was so happy about, because when I was watching the World Cup, I was like, "This is the greatest match I've, I've seen in such a long time." It was so fun, so dramatic. So yeah.

11:53Jawad MirOkay.

11:53Guest 1So I got, I got that one.

11:55Jawad MirAnd then, Carlos, you did the last one, right? Episode four?

11:58Guest 2That's correct, yes.

11:59Jawad MirOkay. Talk to me about, the workflow, in terms of… You know, when you guys received all the footage and obviously, you know, the writers, the directors, the producers are trying to like, get a collect… collaboration, like trying to find the certain arcs include and what not to include and what was that process like? Like, were you guys receiving footage and even interviews as you were cutting, or you had everything at your hand? And the process of, each of the episodes that you guys worked on.

12:33Guest 2I wanna say we were in, went into production as we went into post-production. So we had some material and started building with what we had, but it became sort of a situation where we would start cutting and say, "We need to get this. We need to get an interview with this person. We need this sort of material." And so we were, you know, filming the show as we were also editing it, at the same time. And so if you look at the initial cuts that we built out, a lot of them are just slates where like, we need someone talking about this thing that happened here, and then we would build that out with, you know, the footage that we had available. And then as that, you know, the interviews came in and archival's came in, you know, we would fill, flesh out, replace the slates with the stuff that we had, which of course, you know, would then go and change a lot of things. So it was this constantly evolving, beast of, you know, of a series that, has had many different permutations, before arriving where it finally did.

13:45Guest 2Curtis?

13:46Guest 1Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was a very collaborative, project, for sure. Both between post and like, the field team, but then also just like within post internally. But yeah, I mean, like I w… I went in, you know, and we ha… we had like an initial interview with Messi and, you know, a couple of the, you know, like historians or

14:11Guest 2The journalists

14:11Guest 1... The experts.

14:12Guest 2Argentine journalists.

14:13Guest 1Yes. But then y… you know, as we were going, like, I'll speak to my episode in particular, you know, there's a few, individuals that were very significant in that episode. Like, specifically, Emi Martinez, Dibu as…

14:31Guest 1... He goes by, was like such a pivotal person in that match in particular. You know, with the, with the penalty shootout and whatnot. And so like, it was, it was nice because like I was... I really pushed. I was like, "Hey, man, we need to get this guy on camera." Like, he is so essential to this specific story. And they worked, and they got him, and got him in for an interview, and, it really helped. And you know, there's another one, Kun Aguero, who is like one of Messi's best friends. Not one... He was not playing it, in that match, you know, for m… medical reasons he was kinda forced to retire but, you know, he was like present there. And so it was just, it was kinda cool, like, as the episode, you know, just continually evolved and evolved and just, you know, version after version, and it just y… you know, you see it kind of just morphing into, this r… really interesting thing. Compared to like, as Carlos was saying, like the very first version of it that's like, half of it is just like blank slates saying like…

15:35Jawad MirYeah

15:35Guest 1... We need somebody here and that. So, yeah, so I mean, that process was, it was very cool. You know, you don't always get that luxury with a lot of, documentaries or, you know, different unscripted shows and things like that. So it's, it's nice to, you know, have, having production like m… continually be very active in the post process is really helpful.

16:00Jawad MirRight.

16:00Guest 2Also, a lot of these guys…

16:02Jawad MirAnd it…

16:02Guest 2Sorry, go ahead.

16:03Jawad MirNo, you go ahead please.

16:04Guest 2I was gonna say, you know, like as far as the interviews are concerned, you know, during the World Cup none of these guys wanna sit down in front of a camera…

16:12Jawad MirYeah

16:12Guest 2... For two, three hours and talk about, you know, what they're going through. So, you know, they're very closed off and insular for that, so we don't get to really interact with them in the way that we'd like to while the World Cup is happening. And then after they win it, everyone wants to talk to them. So you have to wait for their schedules to, you know, open up from just a logistics standpoint of getting a team out there to interview them, and these guys are all over the world. I think Messi was still in Paris at the time, playing for PSG, and Kun Aguero was in Miami. You know, just all over the world. They disband, and then you gotta go and like track them down to get the interviews you need. And so, yeah.

16:52Jawad MirYeah.

16:52Guest 2Constant e… evolution in terms of new stuff comes in that changes everything you're working on and…

16:59Jawad MirOh, yeah

16:59Guest 2... Makes it better, but yeah, an evolution.

17:02Jawad MirYeah, no, I completely and completely understand. That's, that's the fun in editing a documentary. You're always ch… Things are always changing. Things are always... You have a general skeleton of everything, you know, where it's your start point and your end point is, but the in between…

17:17Guest 2Right

17:17Jawad Mir... Stuff is always changing. You know, there's three things, three scenes that are so... Like, if I'm thinking about that series right now, three scenes pop out in my mind. I don't know if the, this scene was in episode one or two. I'm assuming it would be the second one where when they lost, when they, the halftime during Saudi Arabia game, when Saudi Arabian coach, you know, talks to his team saying that, you know…

17:43Guest 2Take a photo

17:44Jawad Mir... You guys trying to take a selfie with, you know, Me… Messi. I thought that was a great moment in the story of the doc series as well as in Argentina's team, because that turned around everything for Argentina, even though they lost that game. And then the second scene that I remember is the episode that you did, Curtis, episode three, where Messi's... You know, you know, I don't know soccer that well or football, but I know it enough to see Messi is like a very... He's like an oppo… opposite of Ronaldo, right? Like, Messi's like very quiet and serious. He doesn't really show much emotion… And then he lost his temper on the player, the Netherland player who was trying to…

18:21Guest 2Yeah

18:21Jawad Mir... Like taunt him. That was a very great scene. It g… just shows his character, and then the complete opposite of that was in episode four, and I spoke that, scene about to the executive producers, Jenna and, Juan, is when he's lying down on the airplane seat instead of lying down in business class with his colleagues. Like, those three moments are the pivotal moments in the series, and I think in his journey. I mean, as editors, that must have been like gold for you guys, right? Like, to receive something like that, even the most of it, all of it was phone footage, if anything.

18:56Guest 2Yeah. I mean, all the behind-the-scenes stuff, you know, is exciting 'cause you get a peek and, you know, I've never been the best in the world at something or been able to hang out with the best to ever do something.

19:08Jawad MirYeah.

19:08Guest 2You know, so getting to see how they go about their life and their work ethic and, you know, be able to have that sort of material in a project that you're working on, is great. And then just, I don't know, from a voyeuristic standpoint, really interesting just to see these guys, you know, and see that... Like, I don't know, y… you mentioned, you know, Messi, he's like a humble guy, to see that it's not like all a facade and an act, that's how he actually is and, I don't know.

19:41Guest 1Yeah.

19:41Jawad MirYeah.

19:41Guest 1I was, I was gonna say the same thing. Like again, I've always admired Messi, like as a football player, and you know, you hear, you know, you hear from his teammates and people or whatever like, "Oh, he's such a humble guy," and he's like s… you know, super chill or whatever, and you see that on the field and, you know, y… in the back of your head you're always like, "Yeah, but yeah, but is he?" You know?

20:03Jawad MirYeah.

20:03Guest 1And then to actually see, like when he's not, you know, quote, unquote, "performing", and he's just like hanging out with his mates in, you know, their rooms or whatever, and it's like, no, he's just, he's just a dude. You know? And it's, like it made me just respect him, just as a person so much more, just being able to like see that footage. Even like his interviews, you know? It's like he is not, he's not out there to like try to, you know, impress and like make himse… he's, he's... Even when you ask him, like, "Do you consider yourself the GOAT?" Like I re… I've seen interviews and stuff with him where he immediately like deflects the question and he was like, "I have great teammates," or whatever. And it's like, man, like that is just true sportsmanship, you know? And it's like, I don't know. Like I really admire it with him. And then also like in my episode, for sure, like seeing him kinda like lose his temper a little bit, it was still like there was still this like level of respect, you know?

21:13Guest 1And like he has, he had that phrase, ""Quemira" bobo," which is a very specific, phrase in the, in the region that he was from in Argentina. That is basically just like, you know, translating it to like calling somebody a dummy. Like, it's not even like super insulting, you know, where somebody else might, you know, drop a whole string of, you know, words, but it was, I, like even in that it was like, oh yeah, you still have like a level of respect for people. And for me it's like it's really, like that quality in him really elevated him to that level of the greatest of all time because he's not out there trying to prove that he is the greatest. It's like he just, he doesn't really have anything to prove, it feels like. And I don't know, it just, it just really makes me respect him. You know, and having, like having two kids that are both, you know, football players as well, I'm like, that's a guy that you can look at as somebody that is a true athlete. Like, model your attitude, your, the way that you speak, the way that you conduct yourself, model it after somebody like that.

22:34Jawad MirThat's a great, lesson for your kids. And he is like, you know, not only a great player, whether he's the greatest or not, I mean, doesn't, doesn't matter, but I think as y… as people like us, like, you know, when we get to a certain age when we have our kids, you know, when you get older you realize... You kinda realize when you're young too, but you realize more when you're older that how it's not necessarily about being, you know, a champion in terms of winning cups, but it's more about being champion as a person, like how you carry yourself and how you are towards others and stuff. And certainly he, him and Ronaldo both, and I even think David Beckham again after watching that series, like they're just, they're just great human beings, you know, aside from being amazing soccer players.

23:20Guest 1Yeah, for sure. Definitely.

23:22Jawad MirYeah.

23:22Guest 1Beckham for me, when I was, when I was growing up, Beckham was like my Michael Jordan. And so like I loved, I loved that whole series 'cause I was like, oh, like I was reliving my childhood watching it. But yeah. I mean, it's, I do… like I appreciate, you know, any of these like documentaries and stuff where we get to see like the person…

23:41Jawad MirYes

23:41Guest 1... As opposed to the athlete, which I think is what we were trying to accomplish with, our series.

23:47Jawad MirStorytelling. Yeah. Awesome, man. That's great. Carlos, do you wanna add something before I go on to the next question?

23:54Guest 2No. I was just gonna say, if I had any lessons to take away from Messi, it's, he's got this way to just block out the noise and just concentrate on what he's trying to do in that one day, and it was real fun…

24:11Jawad MirYeah

24:11Guest 2... To, it, I don't know that it necessarily comes out in the series, but if you just are there in the minutia with the raw material just watching…

24:19Guest 3The rest of the world around him seems like it's, you know, just chaos, and he's just there focused on, you know, "No, I'm stretching. No, I'm playing a card game today with my friends. No, I'm just gonna, like, you know, get my leg worked on and drink mate and, like, sing some songs." And he just, like, has this innate ability to tune out noise and just focus on the task at hand.

24:44Guest 1Yeah

24:44Guest 3... So I think there's a lesson to be learned for everyone there. You know, just focus on what you gotta get done.

24:51Guest 1For sure. Do any of you guys follow cricket?

24:57Guest 3I don't.

24:58Guest 1I used to. So I actually grew up in Southern Africa. ... And so I was tangen… tangentially, you know, kind of around it a lot. Never played it. Never really…

25:09Guest 3Yeah

25:09Guest 1... Fully got into it. It was always a little too it took up too much of the day.

25:14Guest 3Yeah. Well…

25:15Guest 1But yeah.

25:17Guest 3Well, the reason, well, first of all, it's, there's a shorter form of the game now, and one of the World Cups is taking place in the US this year, in the US and in West Indies. The reason I asked you is b… I've been, I've grown up with cricket, and when I was watching the Messi series, there was a similar arc that took place in the Cricket World Cup back in 1992. There was, a captain who retired after 1987 World Cup from Pakistan's cricket team, and now he's like, he was, like, a prime minister and now he got into politics, and now he's jailed, but that's a different story. But he retired, just like Messi. He was called back, he joined the team, and the World Cup was in Australia. His team was completely eliminated. Like, it had... For them to even get into the semis, there had to be six different combination of games that had to go their way, and that all happened, and then they ended up winning the World Cup out of nowhere, and that's exactly the way Mes… like, the way this World cup was.

26:22Guest 3I found so many similarities, like how every single time there was this, like, an uphill battle, and out of, you know, th… everybody thought they were done, they were out. And even in the final, I, when I was watching the final, I thought they were finished, especially after those two goals at the end. The momentum was in the favor of France, right? But again, that perseverance, that never giving up, and he knew that was his last World Cup, and he just gave it all, and his teams did it for him. And I just thought it was interesting. Like, I saw so many similarities in the arc that happened in a… another sport 40, 30, 40 years ago almost, and the same thing with soccer.

26:56Guest 1Yeah, that's wild.

26:56Guest 3Well, it's one, it's one of the things that makes sports great, though, is that every once in a while…

27:00Guest 1Yeah

27:00Guest 3... You get one of these teams that seems just predestined to reach glory and greatness, despite insurmountable odds, you know? Like the Miracle on Ice hockey team from, you know, a couple years back, Team Argentina, and cricket, what you're talking about, and, you know, now we gotta make series about all of them.

27:21Guest 1Yeah. There's, there's just so many stories, man. There's, if you're, i… if, even if you don't watch cricket, there's a good series on Amazon Prime. It's called The Test. It's about, the Aus… they follow the Australian cricket team for a year. It's, it's, and this is something, there's scandals that happened during, though, all the refilming, and how that, the arc kind of turned upside down on its head. T… take a look. I mean, even if you don't care for cricket, it's a great little series. It's really great.

27:48Guest 3What was it called again? I'm sorry.

27:49Guest 1The Test.

27:50Guest 3The Test.

27:51Guest 1Yeah. I think there's two season. I've only seen the first one. And I can tell you that was, it was great. It was, like, seven, eight episodes or something. I would love to talk to you about your careers, as in, like, how you guys got into telling stories. You know, what inspired you? Was it always, documentaries, or it just kinda happened? Just tell me about your journey, bo… both of you guys.

28:19Guest 3Curtis, you wanna go first, or?

28:21Guest 1Sure. So I'm trying to synthesize this answer. Okay. So like I said, I grew up in Southern Africa, not around much of the entertainment world at all. Like, relative to most of my colleagues and friends out here, like, watched very few movies or shows or anything like that. So but I was really into writing. I was, I loved writing, loved, like, the theater and that sort of stuff. So when I came to the US, I basically kind of, like, discovered the whole, like, the film industry and everything, and got into it and, you know, I ba… I studied, screenwriting in college. And so I came out to Los Angeles, with the ambitions of being a writer. But during my college time, you know, I had learned s… some basic editing stuff, and…

29:26Guest 1... Essentially, after a few months of being out here and grinding and being rejected by all of the agents trying to get writing samples out to various places, ended up just at some... It's so cliche. I was down at, like, a Beverly Hills party and just started chatting somebody up, and they were like... I was, at that point I was just desperate for work. I was about to take a job working in a coffee shop. And was just chatting with somebody, and she was like, "Hey, do you happen to know Avid?" And I was like, "Yeah, I do, actually." And she was like, "Do you need a job?" And I was like, "Yes." And she was like, "Do you wanna start on Monday?" And I was like, "Yes." So I got a job just working cutting, like, casting reels, so just, like, kinda internal things. And, yeah, I just kinda just kept grinding. Did casting for a while, got into development, and then eventually got a break as, like, a junior editor and just kinda kept working my way up and up. And really, like, fell in love with, you know, with documentaries.

30:27Guest 1And specifically, like, sports doc…... Documentaries. I think that the, like, the storytel… like, the structure that sports gives you in terms of, like, the storytelling is so, it's so great 'cause it's like, you know, it gives you such a nice spine that you can, like, build these stories around. And so yeah, so I, you know, it took me a few years to get into the, into, like, the sports editing world, you know? But I, you know, I was able to get onto Last Chance U, that was on Netflix, and then did a few others. And then eventually Welcome to Wrexham, which, you know, led me to this. So yeah, it's, it's always, it's a fascinating journey, to, yeah, just, like understanding, uncovering, like, the different sports and stuff. And it's also interesting, like, being able to work with sports that, at least that I was not familiar with. So, like, Last Chance U is, like, American football.

31:28Guest 1I knew nothing about American football coming from, you know, Southern Africa.

31:32Jawad MirYeah.

31:33Guest 1And so, like and I was, I was the designated, like, game editor, so I was, like, responsible for cutting, like, the game footage and I'm like, "I don't, I don't know what I'm doing." I didn't tell anybody that. I didn't tell anybody I don't know the sport. So it was a lot of, like, Googling, like, what does this mean, da-da. So it's like I've done things like that. I did a lacrosse feature doc, which I'd never, I had never s… seen a game of lacrosse before I started working on that film. So it's, it's really cool, like, learning a sport as you're editing. You know, it's like you…

32:05Jawad MirYeah

32:05Guest 1... Learn the sport pretty quick.

32:08Jawad MirYeah. And I think, I'll get to Carlos in a second. One thing I'll, I'll make a comment about is that, you know, sports documentaries, it really teaches you about life so much because whether you win a championship or not, it's just about the drama and also the disappointment and the frustration. Like, any emotion that you can imagine from anger to friendship to camaraderie, like, it just is in there. And the fact that you are in that world right now from what I have been sort of talking to people, in the industry is like, that's such a hot thing. Like, there's so many sports here, sports series coming out now, and I think that's a really good place to be in. So I just wanted to mention that. And Carlos, go ahead.

32:52Guest 2Well, you got built-in stakes with the sports series. Yeah, similar to... Well, not similar to Curtis at all. I didn't, grow up in a different country, and go that route. I fell in love with film. I'm an insomniac and have been ever since I was a little kid, and so I used to just fall asleep on the couch watching movies and sort of fell in love with them that way, which, as I got older evolved into a I wanna do this for a living. I wanna... You know, like, when I was in high school, Charlie Kaufman, that was that era of filmmaking with Spike Jonze, and Michel Gondry, and Jonathan Glazer, Chris Cunningham, all these exciting filmmakers who were doing, very cool indie things, that inspired me enough to go to film school, and I was lucky enough to graduate into the 2008 writers strike and the recession. So, th… I've worked every bottom rung job you could have in the industry, at this point, and, was lucky enough that my buddy, Andrew Hevia, who was one of the producers of Moonlight, this is back when we had first start… We went to film school together.

34:09Guest 2When times…

34:09Jawad MirOh, Moonlight, yeah

34:10Guest 2... Yeah. When times were tough, he offered me a job producing for PBS, like little segments for this art show that they had, and what I got paid was what was left over from the budget. And so if I didn't have to pay an editor and could just edit it myself, then that was like the mu… the budgets were minuscule. I wasn't making anything. So I was like, "Well, I'll just cut it myself." And then other producers liked the editing I was doing and then wanted me to edit their segments, and I realized I could sustain an easier career doing that at the time and became an editor that way. Moved out here. Had to start over again as, like, the mid… you know, midnight AE, the night shift AE and logger transcriber on a lot of docs and…

34:56Guest 2... Eventually worked my way back into documentary through reality television for three or four years, when I first started out. And, you know, now mostly feature docs and doc series for the last seven or eight years, and happy to be here.

35:14Jawad MirThat's, that's great. And the reason I ask these questions from an… almost anyone I talk to about everybody's journey is that there, it's just, like, kind of going back to the sports. You know, we were talking about people who are, who we know as celebrities, and we don't never know their real li… like, you know, their true story in terms of outside of cameras. And in a similar way, not that we are in any kind of way celebrities like, you know, David Beckham or anything, but, you know, when people see yourself, Carlos, or Curtis, or anyone else, myself or anybody at a certain level, not that we are at the top level, but a certain level, they forget that the journey that we had to make to get to where we are. Yes, there's some luck and everything, but it's, it's, it's a lot of hard work, and that's something that people don't realize that it is d… like, you know, you guys said, like, night shifts, quitting my jo… going to work at a coffee, shop or cafe and getting a g… It's, it's, it's a lot of, hustle and a lot of, you know, grinding and a lot of tough days and years sometimes.

36:21Jawad MirSo that I always think it's interesting to hear these kind of stories because everybody has a different story. Everybody goes through a struggle to become, to be where they are, and it's a constant struggle going forward, too. It's not that it ends. It's even for people like David Beckham or, you know, Messi or Ronaldo or anybody else. So it's, it, people need to un… sort of understand that perspective, and sometimes I think people forget that.

36:44Guest 2Oh, it was, it was a tough journey. If I had to do it over again, I think I might…

36:49Jawad MirYeah

36:49Guest 2... I might pick a STEM field or something, to invest, my time in.

36:54Jawad MirYeah.

36:54Guest 2But yeah, 100% agreed. And, you know, of all the people that I graduated film school with, we all, you know, it's a... I went to a school that, you know, our classes were 30 graduates per class. I think at last count, there's only, like, seven of us or eight of us that are still in the industry, just 'cause it has been, that much of a grind. And, you know, some people f… it didn't work out for them in the first year, two, three, you know, you fall off, and I get it. But, to your point, yeah, it's, it's been a climb for just about everyone I know where you've had to…

37:35Jawad MirYeah

37:35Guest 2... Just put years and years and years into it to get anywhere.

37:40Jawad MirYeah.

37:40Guest 1It also helps not having any other marketable skills.

37:44Jawad MirYes.

37:45Guest 2Yeah

37:45Guest 1... It kind of forces you, like, well, this is, this is my job. I have to make this work. So yeah. And it's true what you were saying, like, you know, you have, you can have, like, a moment of glory, but that doesn't guarantee that you're gonna get the next job, you know? So it's like, for the last, you know, I don't know, 15 years that I've been doing this, it's like, you know, it's, it's great when you're on a project, but then, you know, you get four weeks out from when your wrap date is about to show up, and you kinda go into panic mode a little bit, and you're like, "I don't know what the next thing is gonna be." And I, you know, it's, so it's like a constant hustle, you know? And it's true, like, through the entire entertainment industry. Like, actors deal with this constantly too…

38:28Jawad MirYeah

38:28Guest 1... Where it's like, you still have to go on those auditions. You still have to do all of that, you know? So you can…

38:33Guest 2And you get typecast.

38:35Guest 1Yeah. Yeah.

38:36Jawad MirYes.

38:36Guest 1Well, that's, that was something, like, I had to, really, like, fight against 'cause I, at one point, you know, started, I did, like, a couple true crime shows, and I do not like true crime at all, but, like, I needed the job, so I did it. And so then, like, for a couple years after that, every job offer I was getting or whatever, w… it was all true crime, and it's, I had to hit a point where I'm like, I had to start telling people, "I don't do true crime." And it was scary.

39:10Jawad MirYeah

39:10Guest 1... But, you know, but in, even in sort of like taking that sort of, that stance, you know, I, there was a brief kinda dry period that I went through a little bit, but then, like, other things just kinda randomly started popping up, and I was like, "All right, yeah, here we go." And that's what allowed me to get into the sports world.

39:32Jawad MirI think it's, it's so true what you said, the word not having skillsets in any other field, or called having a safety net. You know, not having a safety net is the best thing, and something that I have come to realize in the last four or five years. I think it kind of, you know, you just, through experience you figure this out. As panicky or crazy as it would be not knowing where is the next job gonna come from, and it's easier said than done, and I do go to, go into that mode, but at the same time, I'm in that place now, and I don't know how long it will last, where I love to be uncomfortable because that pushes me. It's just, you know, when you become too c… too comfortable and relaxed and you're just like, "Hey, I have a job, you know, another six months left. What's gonna happen?" But I think being uncomfortable is something that, as, it is scary. I'm not saying, like, I'm like, you know, happy about it, but at the same time, it just pushes you, and I think that's sometime necessary to be uncomfortable to be able to do what you wanna do.

40:35Guest 1Yeah, 100%.

40:35Guest 2Yeah, and to that, to that end, I also think, you know, I thought once I'd reached a certain level in my career that, like, it would just be, you know, I wouldn't have to look for work anymore. I wouldn't have to do this. Like, I would get offers or something, naively. And you do, but it's like, if you want to continue an upward path, like, not only is the competition much more fierce for the top-tier projects, you know, but, like, those are fewer and farther between, so it actually gets even tougher the higher you climb. So it's this never-ending thing of like, as you say, cods… constantly having to, like, learn new skillsets, how to improve yourself, how to get better, how to make yourself a more, you know, a better, artist, a better creator, a better storyteller, you know, a better editor…

41:27Jawad MirYeah Yeah

41:28Guest 2... The higher you go so that you can separate yourself you know?

41:32Jawad MirYeah. So true, man. That's so true. A… have you guys seen the, I'm, I'm sure you have, the new OpenAI Sora stuff that's come out?

41:42Guest 2Yeah. Seen it.

41:43Guest 1Yeah. It's wild.

41:45Jawad MirIt is wild. And, you know, I wa… I was talking to my colleague, who's my DP as well, and we were talking that, we were talking about AI like anybody else for the last, you know, few years, ever since especially ChatGPT came out. But when the OpenAI Sora came out, it's like we are not too far away from things changing completely upside down. Even Tyler Pelley, T… Tyler Perry, gave an interview in Hollywood Reporter last week. Like, he was gonna open up a new studio for, like, $800 million, and then he decided to hold back because of OpenAI's Sora. How do you think... I mean, that's more of like, you know, text to generating footage, but at the same time, if that's become so easy, and this is the first iteration, do you feel that AI is gonna play a huge role in the post-production world too? I mean, I think so, but I would love to know what you guys think.

42:40Guest 1I think it already is.

42:42Guest 2I…

42:42Jawad MirYeah.

42:42Guest 2Yeah.

42:45Guest 1Y… yeah, I mean, like, my opinion is, like, and a… and a lot of my colleagues and stuff disagree with me, but, like, m… my feeling is the technology is coming. It's, it's here to a degree, but it's coming. And, you know, we can choose to fight against it, or we can, or we can treat it just as a tool. You know, it's like…

43:09Jawad MirYes

43:10Guest 1... I'm sure that there were similar feelings when, like post-production went digital. You know, it's like they had been cutting on film and tape and all that sort of stuff, and then along comes these computers and editing software, and everybody's like, "Oh, this is gonna ruin this whole industry." I'm like, no, it's just if you can learn to just harness it just becomes another tool in your, in your toolkit, is my feeling.

43:32Jawad MirNo, I agree with you, and I think it's the same thing. I remember, even though it's not the world of entertainment, I remember when the internet came out, I had an eBay account in 1997, and everybody I knew thought I was crazy putting my credit card online. You know, now go figure where we are, you know, in 30 years.

43:51Guest 1Yeah

43:51Jawad Mir... Or less than 30 year… And the same thing with, you know, people putting their pictures online. It was like… ... "Are you crazy? You're gonna put yourself online?" Now look at the world. So I think, yeah, you're, I agree with you in that sense. I think the key would be, and I had this conversation with someone in the Silicon Valley, last week. He sent me the link. He's like, "Well, what do you think is gonna happen?" He's not, nothing to do with entertainment industry. I'm like, "I think the work is gonna become limited, but what's gonna make you stand out is not necessarily your skill set, but the relationships and the networking connection that you have with people." And I think that's gonna count more than anything else, because people will depend on other people and their connection with you as opposed to maybe not as much a skill set. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that's gonna play a key role, is just having those connections and relationships with people, you know, all the time, just hanging out with them and just making sure they know you and you know them.

44:46Guest 1Yeah, for sure. And, like, look, at the end of the day, I think we're a long ways away from, robots replacing human stories. You know? Like, I think that the stories are still, like, that's still gonna be r… required to come from people. Partly because I think that the, what makes stories interesting are the flaws. You know? It's, it's the mistakes and it's the, you know…

45:18Guest 1... Even e… even when you look at movies or whatever, like, if you were to... I f… I feel like if you were to see a perfect movie, it probably would not be that interesting, ironically, because you want those imperfections in it, you know? And so yeah, so that's where I think that, like, you know, we're a long ways away from, you know, AI truly, like, taking over and having the level of consciousness, because, you know, it's, it's meant to be, efficient. Like, AI is... The purpose of it is to make life, to make everything th… whatever it's programmed to do as efficient as possible. And it's our human, tendency to lack efficiency, I think, that creates complexity.

46:11Jawad MirAgreed. How about you, Carlos?

46:14Guest 2I agree similarly. I think, you know, AI's coming whether we want it to or not. I think we should, to, you know, what other creatives, in the industry have been saying, you know, try and put some guardrails in place just so that, you know, w… it's doesn't just…

46:35Jawad MirYeah

46:35Guest 2... You know…

46:35Jawad MirThat's, I think that's the key

46:36Guest 2... Scorch, go scorched earth…

46:37Jawad MirYeah

46:37Guest 2... On everybody, and that we're using this in an ethical way. But I do think it's gonna be, a situation where, you know, you either get with the times or get left behind, because, you know, like, these are tools that people are gonna assume…

46:50Jawad MirYeah

46:50Guest 2... That you're gonna be using. And so you have an obligation to, you know your enemy. I don't see it as an enemy. Like, they're supposed to be…

46:58Jawad MirYeah

46:59Guest 2... Tools in a sense. But I think the big fear is, you know, that you're gonna get replaced. You know? That, like, someone is just gonna... Like, if we work in documentaries, someone's just gonna feed all this material to an algorithm, and it's gonna go and, like, spit out a feature length film, which I don't think we're anywhere close, you know, to that being a possibility. But on the flip side of that, I think a big part of the job of being an editor is interpreting the feedback that you get from, you know, network execs, from your director, from showrunners, from the production company you work for, from the streaming giant, you know. And sometimes what they ask for isn't what they want, and my job as an editor a lot of the time is interpreting what your feedback you're giving me and saying, "No. Oh, what you actually want is this thing."

47:59Guest 2So if... Yeah. Trying to... If, so if you're someone who's just telling an AI, "Spit me out this," and you're not…

48:08Jawad MirYeah

48:08Guest 2... Understanding why, you're not getting what it is that works so wonderful in your mind, I mean, it's 'cause, like, the AI is just doing what you're telling it to as opposed to, you know, thinking collaboratively and reinterpreting what you're saying.

48:22Jawad MirYeah. And to add to that, I think what I would tell you is that I was listening to this podcast, I forget what it's, where it was, but it was these bunch of guys who had access to OpenAI's Sora, and they were doing some tests. And these guys are like, they interview, like, people like, you know, Sam Altman, Elon Musk, Bill Gates. And what they did was they asked AI to create something, and it created it, and it was almost perfect. Like, let's say, I think it was, like, three-minute video or something. And they wanted something tweaked… So they asked it to tweak it. Instead of tweaking it threw out something brand new. So that element of editing that you're talking about was not there. It just went from scratch, and what they got in the result was not as good as the first output. So unless you figure it out on your own how to edit it, but yeah, that's, that's where it at. But I think one thing is for sure, I remember last year transco… transcribing jobs went away because now you can just have anything transcribed.

49:22Jawad MirAnd with this OpenAI Sora, I think stock footage industry's gonna get hurt a lot. But yeah, you're... I do think we're not that close to being replaced by robots. But a… as a tool, if we can regulate it and we can, you know, create some sort of guardrails, then I think we should be okay more or less.

49:42Guest 1That's why I also think that it's important for anybody l… specifically in this industry, but I think it's true of all industries, that like you know, you should constantly be trying to push yourself to try new things, to like even, you know, pivot your experience and, you know, like get new experience, get new, like work in areas that, you know, might be new to you or whatever. Like I'm trying to do that right now. Since this, since this Messi thing, you know, I've been trying to like get more into producing. You know, which I don't have much or hardly any experience with. But you know, it's, for me, it's like I'm just, I'm, I'm expanding my tool belt. And, I think that like in the long run, like that's what I've tried to do throughout my career is like, well, I don't have experience doing this one thing, but you do, you try it, you get into it, and then you have that experience.

50:43Jawad MirExactly.

50:43Guest 1And you kinda just keep pushing and pushing. So, yeah, I mean, again, I think that if your concern is that you're gonna lose your job to AI, then I think, I think it's good to recognize that. And then, you know, just try to pivot a little bit.

51:03Jawad MirI think that's the key, having not, you know, eggs in one basket. Like you need to sort of scatter it around and just to make sure that you are ready to pivot. And I, and I think that's important for your own growth too. If you're doing the same thing over and over again, you know, you're gonna run out of ideas and you're gonna become complacent. So it's important to do that. Maybe it will be good for humanity, i… in some ways. But in anyways, what's, what's next for you guys, as we sort of wrap up? Both of you guys can sort of talk about what's coming up that you are able to talk about.

51:35Guest 2I'm currently, I just finished, directing a pilot, with, my friend Andrew Heavie, who's the head of film and production for Papa Lorraine's company, Fabula, and the one I was saying

51:47Jawad MirYeah

51:48Guest 2... One of the producers on Moonlight, that we're hoping to take to market at some point this year. Although, there's a backlog of everything. No one's taking meetings at the moment, so we'll see how that goes. And then I'm currently working on another pilot, for Boardwalk Pictures of Last Chance U and Cheer, fame, that I would be surprised if it does not get picked up somewhere. It's just one of those projects that checks all the boxes. And I'm very excited to be working on it at the moment. And that's what I got. I can't…

52:26Jawad MirThat sounds awesome, man

52:27Guest 2... Talk too much about the details, about what they're…

52:28Jawad MirNo, it's of course, that's fine. Yeah.

52:31Guest 2But fun stuff.

52:31Guest 1Yeah. I'm a, l… like I said at the top, h… really working on this soccer documentary, about the refugees in…

52:43Jawad MirYes

52:43Guest 1... In Kansas City, which we're super excited about. Got some exciting meetings lined up for that. And what else? I'm, working at Endeavor right now, which is like the giant company that have WME. So I'm helping, I'm working with them, developing some shows and, you know, ed… editing over there as well. And then also working with, Kennedy Marshall company, which is…

53:12Guest 1... You know, Frank Marshall…

53:13Jawad MirYep

53:13Guest 1... And Kathy Kennedy. A project I can't really talk about right now, but got a great relationship over there with them, so we are developing a project with them as well.

53:24Jawad MirThat's great. I think they're, they're into the world of documentaries, right? Kennedy Marshall, I think they do docs sometimes.

53:29Guest 1Yeah, I, yeah, last year I actually, I worked with Frank on, a documentary about Dan Rather, the journalist, that he directed, and I was, editing with him. And man, it was, it was such a cool experience. Like Frank, you know, he has, like he is just, he's Hollywood royalty.

53:49Jawad MirOh, yeah.

53:50Guest 1And so like just being able to sit with him in a bay and like, you know, g… go through the, through the film that we did together and then, you know, going up with him to like the Skywalker Ranch to, you know, mix this like little documentary that we did, it w… such a great experience. Learned so much from that guy. So yeah.

54:11Jawad MirYeah, I mean, we've all grown up on Marshall, Kennedy, and Spielberg films, right? So…

54:15Guest 1Yeah

54:16Jawad Mir... Amblin, and then obviously they went their own ways. But yeah, no, this is great, man. Thank you so much, guys, for talking about, the series, Messi's, Apple TV+ series on the World Cup, as well as your projects, and a little bit of a d… you know, a divergence on AI and everything. It's been, it's been pleasure having you, and thank you for sharing all your valuable, information and your career paths and the work that you did on the series.

54:41Guest 2Yeah. Thanks for having us.

54:42Guest 1Yeah.

54:42Guest 2Good chat.

54:43Guest 1Yeah. Thank you very much. It's been fun.

54:44Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.